John Zorn : On The Edge

[wizenhiemr]

i like how he always makes fun of people in live shows. and usually yells "security! security!" lol

[DarkeningSkies1]

This part of Derek Bailey's documentary? Marvelous to see this footage. Thanks for posting...

[egyptianminor]

OMG!!! Wayne Krantz @5:30 w/ the red Ibanez!he's influenced also by John Cage & the whole 'chance' stuff, as well as Miles' electric period.Very telling what he says: in the end this ensemble is more about the musician's personalities, then about the 'music' proper.

[egyptianminor]

He's clearly influenced by John Cage and Miles, in terms of how he orchestrates these so-called 'living compositions'

[gurra9]

I just realized how much these rehersings looks like a scene from One Flew Over the Cookoos Nest

[nilzardo]

napalm death?

[BennyGaberMusic]

Oh my god, the dream!!

[TotaIIy]

Zorn got a "genius grant" from the MacArthur Foundation. In response, Stephen Colbert played a 10-second clip from Zorn, bleated a few random notes on the sax and exclaimed, "Genius grant, please!"

[mmlight]

I like Johns music, and how much of it he has made, but it seems his best work is behind him now. We have soundtrack and trad jewish rock stuff. Fine, but not memorable like Naked City or Painkiller. No, John has become a party to all and master of none.

[thinkingevil]

@mmlight I seldom leave comments... but you're wrong. Keep in mind, you're perspective is subjective! And to make a sweeping negative public wash of his fervent and consistent work is... a drag....

[mmlight]

@thinkingevil Yes, I could be 'wrong', but John seems to have ran out of steam. I don't hear collectors talk about his records like in the 90's. Glad he created The Stone. Maybe not much of a fan anymore. It's okay, I and many of us already spent our money on his records. btw: His site could use this crazy thing called 'music samples' before we buy. Same with Mode records. Come on, it's 2011 for god's sake!

[thinkingevil]

@mmlight I hear you. To me tho, this makes you sound like a frustrated and expectant consumer as opposed to a patient audience of an artist's ebb and flow and personality etc. You're displeased, but John's work will yet be long and it's merits will see true light in plenty time, to your eyes or not.

[mmlight]

@thinkingevil You are probably right. Painkiller was groundbreaking, but is over. Hey, we can't all hang in there while an artists tests their next batch of tricks. John did great work in the 90's, but other artists lead the pack today.

[lamentate07]

@mmlight i agree. i like the book of angels series, but that's because he gives the bands a certain amount of freedom to interpret his pieces as they wish. otherwise, he has been mostly repeating his ideas for the last decade. his classical music has improved i think, but everything else has gone backwards, and i don't understand why he still insists his music is avantgarde when it's just more of the same. it's even more puzzling than his idea that avantgarde should be a 'genre'.

[mmlight]

@lamentate07 I'm sure the main thing John cares about now is paying the rent in NYC. Some of the musicians have said NY is more expensive to live in than ever. Happened to SF and drove away much of it's artist talent. But to John's music, I'm sure he is ready to take the check for anything at this point.

[lamentate07]

@mmlight maybe Zorn owns his own apartment? ;-) But yes, i agree, a lot of musicians and artists can no longer afford to live in N.Y proper. e.g Abel Ferrara, Michael Gira etc.

Marc Ribot write an interesting article about the way the scene is changing downtown and how the future looks bleak. it was quite depressing really.

[mmlight]

@lamentate07 The period of radical invention from New York's base of talented musicians is over. Not for lack of talent but economics and social climate. Money dominates culture now. Artists will continue to create but the margins of support wane. Hard to create natural events when the culture is having 'health issues'..

[Oinotnaaa]

@mmlight Honestly, I think that because of the strain, the few that can handle the heat are gonna innovate/produce more because of it. Y'know, people triumphing shining their best in the face of adversity kind of thing

[TheChrissi85]

î love the naked city

[calebengler]

The equivalent of what a painter ends up with when trying to employ every color at hand at once - mud.

[sex6cult9revolution]

to see these people blossom and become the assholes they really are...

[SunshineInWoods]

What's the name of the documentary??

[acohen87]

Personally, I feel like finding John Zorn is like stumbling across Frank Zappa all over again.......as far as enjoying the music as opposed to appreciating WHAT it is and where it's come from could of course be worlds apart, but hell if it's to be dismissed. I'd be ashamed of the general public if such open minds were to be cast aside.

[drwinkle101]

The blocks, the shapes, the cards, the carrots, the nakedness, the blossoming arseholes, the yap yap yap of the poncey Yid and his psychodramatic adventures in shit.

[Drblooter99]

What a twat Zorn is. He can't swing, no chops, but -- he's got a concept!! It is psychodynamic musical freedom! So yap yap yap, I'm deeper than Stockhausen, then get a pile of (rightfully) insecure middle class musos to do what the fuck. Ooooohhh the blocks, the shapes, the cards, the profound freedom!!!

Joyless, loveless, swingless. Horrible.

[flipperboy]

@Drblooter99 since when was swinging the definition of music, and joyless and loveless are totally subjective per listener

[mrgreen05]

@Drblooter99 hahahahahaha omg youre an idiot have you heard Masada? the string trio?? FUCK HES AMAZING dude, he does everything.. not because you cant understand it means he sucks- listen to that then tell me if he sucks..

[Parvenu333]

Yep I agree with you, this is fucking terrible. I never thought I'd say this, but anything that Wynton Marsalis would say about this guy is completely true.

[bkjbs762]

@Drblooter99 Zorn can swing, and he can play the sax better then anybody. Only, swing and playing the sax the traditional way, is only a small part of what he does. You are terribly mistaken.

[richcapo]

I don't know if I've ever come across a person who is more impressed with himself than John Zorn.

[Drblooter99]

@richcapo

i reckon people like Stan Getz and Mingus were just as arrogant. But they weren't a waste of space like Zorn is. They could play.

[wilkiemart]

zappa is up there :) i love zappa

[RappoldXJay]

oh and one last thing: if you think music is about "competition", you're an idiot. there are multiple forms and approaches that can coexist with each other. it's not always about who does something "better" than someone else.

[sex6cult9revolution]

I would think the deal is that the WAY in which people retell their dreams is often meaningless and boring.

If you tell it like it's abstract, then it's going to be.

However, this is not entirely free from structure - that should be as evident as the notion that a storm is as natural as peaceful clouds are.

This is not "unconscious product", but if it were - that is something that could be brought to light for examination.

(cont. below)

[sex6cult9revolution]

It tells us a lot more that we don't already know than the shit we've heard a million times. I mean, if we could actually SEE the unconscious processes of a person, we might understand their affliction, no?

And as someone indoctrinated into classical music from a young age, I can tell you that a lot of inspiration comes from the abandonment of convention.

And it's not like the devil gets inside you when you veer away from convention and structure, this stuff doesn't stick to you (like Top 40).

[drwinkle101]

Zorn and Derek Bailey are free themselves from structure and rhythm, just as you fall asleep and dream. Other people's dreams are mad, meaningless and boring, and so is music like this. It's great for them to play, but we make a mistake thinking such an unconscious product is worth listening to.

[Xzariox]

@drwinkle101 Your phrasing implies you believe this to be more than just your own opinion, which is undeniably incorrect. At times it may saunter into a territory one can easily describe as mad, however I fail in every way imaginable to see how madness can be meaningless or boring. Quite the contrary, in my opinion.

[drwinkle101]

@Xzariox

Madness -- and I have worked with the insane -- is noisy, dirty, and simultanously both boring and dangerous. I did not say that Zorn is mad. I said that to abandon structure in a work of art is to abandon conscious meaning, and this leads to meaningless disorder comparable to that in dreams. The idea that dreams are a kind of madness was expressed by Kant, Schopenhauer, Freud, Jung. Kant said: "The lunatic is a wakeful dreamer".

[Xzariox]

@drwinkle101 I would say your assertion regarding a lack of structure being meaningless is still a debatable one. However, I do fully understand your point. Dreams are often very mad, yes, but much like anything else, dreams can be studied. It's not uncommon for dreams to have a subconscious, subtle, or esoteric meaning that can be analyzed and understood. Simply because structure and signification might be abstract does not mean they are nonexistent.

[garmonbozia318]

@drwinkle101 I don't think that musical meaning stems from structure at all. Structure may help one comprehend a piece of music, but individual moments can be incredibly meaningful, regardless of the context.

[aperisimo]

then go to a stan getz video then you zalapandanweezel eleshguts

[RappoldXJay]

@drwinkle101 people who go around claiming that it's "wrong" to enjoy a certain type of music (or art in general) always make suspicious.

i think this is worth listening to because i like it, no further explanation needed.

[drwinkle101]

@RappoldXJay

It's a mistake because it encourages him to make more music that desensitises and regresses the educated ear. I believe that players who abandon consistency in form and rhythm could not write and play music properly in the first place.

[RappoldXJay]

i on the other hand believe you're making broad assumptions about things you have no clue about.

john zorn has written and played plenty of, as you call it, "proper" music, including masada, the music romance series, news for lulu and spillane among others.

also, derek bailey, who made this documentary was an accomplished session guitarist before starting with free improvisation.

and lastly, why do you care if "the educated ear" (whose ear exactly?) gets"desentisized" (to what)?

[drwinkle101]

@RappoldXJay

Pre-experimental Bailey the session player did mundane pop for Kathy Kirby and the like, hardly "accomplished".

As to Zorn's proper music, it's undistinguished and boring to me.

My central point is that people like Bailey can play and write in formal ways, but they knew they weren't competition for their contemporaries, so they got "subversive" and deformalised. Same thing in unreadable post-structural novels by writers who were not much good at plot, character and dialogue.

[RappoldXJay]

but ultimately, what would the motivation be to go "subversive" then? money? no. fame? there's about a billion better ways to get famous than by playing avantgarde music, and even though Zorn and Bailey are respected in certain circles, they're still extremely niche artists in the "grand scheme of things". if experimental music is a "scam" as a lot of its critics seem to call it, it's a pretty ineffective one.

[RappoldXJay]

i don't get why it's so hard to comprehend that some people do this stuff because that's what they want to do, and that other people listen to it because they genuinely enjoy it.

i have a feeling like you're going to reply to this with "then they must be delusional" or something along these lines. even if that's the case,it doesn't hurt anyone, which brings me back to my original question: why do you care? why does this music bother you so much that you think it shouldn't be listened to?

[drwinkle101]

@RappoldXJay

Musicians like Zorn are niche, but make a living from producing rubbish while other people get a pittance for cleaning the studio toilets and other useful work. I believe two things: that Zorn and Bailey were limited musicians who went "avant" not for money but for approval and prestige in a small, murky pond. Second: people who claim to enjoy this stuff have the idea that they are going "beyond jazz", or "post jazz", which makes them feel even cleverer.

[RappoldXJay]

couple questions:

are you a musician?

do you play an instrument really well?

if yes, is it the guitar?

do you play jazz fusion?

do you feel resentment over artists who you think are "worse" than you being more well-known than you?

do you think you deserve to be more well known than said artists because you can play fast solos?

i'm asking you this because i studied musicology for two years and most of the people who were into fusion had very similar views to you.

[drwinkle101]

@RappoldXJay

I play a bit of amateur jazz, can't play fast solos, and don't do fusion.

One possible source of resentment you left out: I might not like middle class tossers having had all the advantages of family financial support and a proper musical education, who squander it doing -- yes again! -- rubbish like this.

[RappoldXJay]

derek bailey had a working class background.

[Drblooter99]

@RappoldXJay

Bailey's working class. So what? Even if we assume a "rule" of avant types from relatively privileged backgrounds, rules have exceptions. Zorn's mother was a university professor and his father ran a classy hairdressing business. Zorn played guitar, piano, flute and saxophone as a child. He could do this because his parents bought the instruments. He went to Webster, a private university, because his parents paid for it. And I'm sure Zorn's crew in this vid aren't from the Bronx.

[RappoldXJay]

sure i guess most of them come from middle or upper class backgrounds (i don't really know because i'm not interested in that stuff), i mentioned bailey being working class because drwinkle and me were specifically discussing bailey and zorn.

[RappoldXJay]

I also don't think i'm going "beyond" jazz or anything or that i'm listening to more "advanced" music than anyone. i know it's easy to talk shit on the internet but i'm pretty "open" as far as my musical tastes go. i listen to music from a wide variety of (broad) genres including various forms of rock, electronic music, classical music jazz and most of it isn't "experimental". i just listen to what i enjoy and i don't look down on people who don't share my tastes.

[garmonbozia318]

@drwinkle101 You're quite incorrect about unconventional players being unable to play or write "properly." Marc Ribot would be an excellent case in point. In many circumstances, the players who abandon tradition do so because they know it inside out and want something new. I.e. Webern and Ligeti knew Renaissance counterpoint as well as almost anybody in history, yet they chose to go a different route. Also, check Zorn and Frith in "step across the border part 2" if you doubt his abilities.

[garmonbozia318]

@drwinkle101 Also, this kind of music (IMHO) increases the sensitivity of the "educated" ear, because it teaches you to hear the nuances inherent in raw sound, and hearing the way those sounds interact with each other can teach you a lot about the underlying principles of common practice music. Doesn't mean you have to like it of course, but remember that not liking something doesn't make it bad either. Also, how does one "play music properly?"

[elderlinx]

holy shit

[frizzzzzzal]

sounds like my me and my friends jamming after dropping acid

[KissMyAssWMG]

Dropping acid, that's like... cool, and with friends too, wauw gee.

[0ooiioo0]

This uber nerd is hands down the greatest musical genius alive today.

[jackottmar]

are you talking about Zorn or KissMyAssWMG? Cos from where I'm sitting it's a close call. But hey, I'm sitting on a fence with a wooden post up me jacksie!

[AzimuthSchwitters]

@0ooiioo0 yeah he is alive and i find it even more bizarre to follow what he is creating while he is alive, cause we know that his work will last (some of his pieces / or his work as a whole, as an example of artistic productivity!); i cant help thinking, when seeing him and co playing live: 'is that a masterpiece we're hearing now? / that will be venerated when he is not here anymore?..' it's strange; he creates so much that he is obviously an alien in the present!

[OMERTA011]

where can I buy the album? hahahhaha

[sl2h]

cool Napalm Death shirt !

[jasmicar]

I cant believe that they get enough money to eat by doing this

[makeithurtful]

The COBRA game looks like a lot of fun

[hajarhajarhajar]

it is (: we bastardized a COBRA improv many times over. Uber cool

[CptKwim]

Does anybody know who the drummer is in the Cobra ensemble?

[IntensiveTime]

Bobby Previte, Hollis Headrick, Christine Bard, E.J. Rodriguez, James Pugliese, Louie Belogenis, Susie Ibarra, Michael Evans, James Lo and Ben Perowsky. These are all the Cobra drummers. (Excluding the Japanese recordings.)

This does not include percussionists, except for the people who played the percussion and the drums.

[bobvanluijt]

What does he mean with 'hardcore' music?

[mygoodnessthathurts]

he means hardcore punk music. Basically the predecessor to grindcore.

[Kugman1234]

John Zorn for president!!!

[Thomlistentoslayer]

john zorn is an innovator

[KissMyAssWMG]

Good observation indeed.

[ItinerateWolfMop]

Is that a Napalm Death shirt at 4:00?

[RSwordIAAA]

indeed ben

[Invasco]

What's the name of that documentary?

[orientalnegro]

This is taken from a documentary by Derek Bailey that was on British television (Channel 4) in the 90's entitled 'Improvisation' which came from the book of the same name. Definitely recommend it :)

[88jester]

MAKE ME SOME MUSIC JOHN ZORN...

[shuckslbj]

Zorn is totally brilliant. I remember when I first heard his music at 16 -- I thought that in person he'd be the way I first envisioned Marily Manson to be. Manson's actually a pretty level-headed, funny guy.

Anyway, this video really provides great insight and is fun to watch. Plus, the girl on the harp has been in my dreams since watching this.

[bedtime4bonzo]

I guess "the girl" is zeena parkins, but only because i don't know of very many other experimental harpists, y'know ?

[shuckslbj]

Yeah, you're probably right. Speaking of which, with all of the collaborators they have in common and connections they have, has anyone else ever wondered why Carla Kihlstedt hasn't played with Zorn? I know he produced her first solo album...

[reesheund]

i mostly like his mullet

[RadioFreeFrodo]

this whole documentary can be seen on ubuweb. also the violinist looks like mark mckinney of kids in the hall fame

[patternselect]

Does anybody know the name of the trombone player in this clip or what he has done to the trombone?

thanks

[Incongruent]

It's great to hear him just talk finally.

[monkeykingrecords]

nice insight on the cobra pieces

[simozonelayer]

F*ck me, that's great!

Thanks for posting.

[Speedfreak333]

Great! thank you very much!