Mormonism and the Trinity, by Rob Sivulka

[GmaM11]

There is no such thing as proof in this context, only evidence, "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is ONE (hidden in the universe)" BoM simply could not have come from Hebrew culture 600 BCE....they would have Torah scrolls, brass plates not in bible, they would keep the Feast Days of God, only one temple on earth. The BoM is simply a rework of View of the Hebrews, 75+ points of agreement between texts. Hebrew concepts do not translate to Egyptian.

[GmaM11]

@GmaM11 Furthermore, Chuck Missler in The Electric Universe posits the aspect of multidimensionality of God and our limited ability to comprehend Him, thus the representation of LORD, Yeshua, and Ruach Ha Kosesh (Holy Spirit) is the best way to represent the Great I AM to our limited comprehension.

[54v115]

"O My Father" (aka "My Father in Heaven", also "Invocation, or The Eternal Father and Mother") is a Latter-day Saint (LDS or Mormon) hymn written by Eliza R. Snow inspired by Joseph Smith, Jr teaching the principle of heavenly parents.

I had learned to call thee Father, Through thy Spirit from on high,

But until the key of knowledge Was restored, I knew not why.

In the heavens are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare!

Truth is reason, truth eternal Tells me I've a mother there.

[majinish]

"Well the trinity isn't found in the Bible and what they mean is the term trinity isn't found in the Bible."

Uh, no. When I say the "trinity" isn't in the Bible I mean the concept of it, not just the word trinity.

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish Modalism or Sebelianism is not found in the Bible, but is found in the 1830 edition of Book of Mormon, as are various other unBiblical, anti-Christ Mormon blasphemies, blunderings, heresies, & esoteric claptrap. The young upstart religion that is today the Monson movement of Moroni, & falling & failing in terms of growth & missionary success has a history of being "blown about by every wind of doctrine."

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds." Jer. 4:14

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish "As long as people want the Mormon Church to be true, more than they are willing to face the possibility that it is not, they will not entertain evidence or reason. Delusion becomes a choice." Jim Whitefield, author of The Mormon Delusion series at themormondelusiondotcom

It is not suitable for faithful Mormons who wish to remain in their delusion.

[majinish]

@Shulamitefire So you're trying to quote an anti-Mormon? Yea, like that's unbiased. *sarcasm*

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

This can be said about BAC... LDS are not alone...

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 LDS have in common with ever other craft of deception that counterfeits Christianity a sunken view of the Holy Bible & minimalistic regard for the glory of the Personhood of the One Eternal God, resulting in weak & wobbly worship. If they do not get right who the One True God Is, which they definitely do not, how can they be the one, true church, they cannot & are not. The corporation that owns the Mormons is service to Mammon.

What does Jesus say about trying to serve two masters?

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

The typical christian holds the bible up above G-d like an idol. It is not a sunken view of the bible to accept reality that it is not complete and holds errors... Can you come out of the brainwashed view and into reality?

Your water god results in a weak wobbly worship...

Why can't they be??? Because you said so? No pride in that statement.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 To what extent do you think that the thousands of extant New Testament manuscripts are in agreement with each other?

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 Nonetheless, it is not suitable for faithful Mormons who wish to remain in their delusion. Love Mormons; abhor Mormonism.

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

And yet you have no reason to abhor it... except that they will not believe in ignorance like you want to...

[Shulamitefire]

@Shulamitefire For starters, the weak & wobbly Mormon god according to Joe Smith is not even the Eternal God of everlasting past. For decades Brigham Young taught God was Adam. Neither false & abominable worship even comes remotely close to being authentic Christianity & sadly is craft of deception & cult of counterfeit.

The roots of Mormonism are rotten, its foundation faulty & foolish. The Mormon Mirage, massive mormonization, mormonosis. Love Mormons; abhor Mormonism.

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

BY did not teach that adam was G-d. You are confused along with the rest that believe this. BY denied this interpretation of his teachings.

Even so... if Adam is G-d... what does that mean? How does that mean he is not everlasting... after all you believe that G-d is Jesus and was born and died...

You understanding of the gospel and scriptures is rotten... not to mention your view of LDS.  you need to learn what it means to love you neighbor.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 You would do well to take your head out of the church feed bag & muster the courage to face the facts set forth from LDS sources that YES, Brigham Young taught for decades that Adam was God. Christians ascribe to Christ Jesus worshipfuly in Spirit and in Truth that HE IS the Uncreated Creator of all creation that is & was & ever shall be, His superscendent Splendor more glorious than the grand sum of all creation. Jesus is calling you to come up, to transcend Mormonism. Be courageous.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 Brigham Young's Adam-God sermon can be found in the LDS Journal of Discourses 1:50-51.

And not only Young but Joe Smith declared that Adam was, in fact, the Ancient of Days. D&C 27:11; 116:1; 138:38 all state that Adam is the Ancient of Days.

No mere man is worthy of the title "Ancient of Days." Give the Beautiful God the glory dues His Name.

Prayerfully study Daniel Ch. 7

If LDS prophets do not get right Who The One True God Is how can they be the one true church?

Selah

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 Esp.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

This... the Sovereignty & Supremacy of the One Almighty.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 "BY denied this interpretation of his teachings."

Please cite specific reference in support of this airy assertion.

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

Sorry... but I only have one of the 2 quotes i was thinking of... the other one i know comes from the Church News... But here is the one i do have.

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

"Whether Adam is the personage that we should consider Our Heavenly Father, or not, is considerable of a mystery to a good many. I do not care for one moment how that is; it is no matter whether we are to consider Him our God, or whether His Father, or his Grandfather, for in either case we are of one species of one family and Jesus Christ is also of our species."

JoD 4-217

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 How is JoD 4:217 a denial of BY's teaching for decades that God is Adam? In this passage BY is simply speaking of whether Adam is God or His Father or His Grandfather. He is saying take your pick!

In true Christian theology God the Father is the Father of spirits. See Heb. 12:9. The Holy Spirit meaning for that verse calls forth the imperative understanding that God the Father does not have a Father. He Is Self-Existent, Unformed Love, the Almighty from everlasting past. His Glory!!!

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 Check D&C 27:11; 116:1; 138:38. All these passages state that Adam is the Ancient of Days. Isaiah was not beholding Adam; he was beholding the Almighty, the Ancient of days. Neither Smith nor Young got that right. God deserves infinitely better than saying that He was Adam, a mere man, a creature-craftsman.

They were speaking from the vain & empty imaginations of their own hearts/puppeting prophet proclamations as pawns/channeled through by seducing spirits of error & deception.

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

Titles...you sould understand that more then one man can hold the same title... believing in the trinity and all.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 I was/am addressing title that is the entitlement of God alone, uniquely, exclusively, transcendingly, otherly His, not mere man's, e.g. the Ancient of Days, Alpha & Omega, Almighty, Blessed & Only Potentate, King of Kings & Lord of Lords,

There is that glory which is rightfully, truly, ineffably God's alone. Fallen & corrupt religious thinking would rob God of such honor, such beauty, such power which belongs to Him infinitely. The Creator shall never be nor ever was the creation!

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

No one is giving Adam glory...

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 It has been shown that JS & BY ascribed the glory due only rightfully to God to mere man. Have you studied the D&C passages I quoted? Why do you believe that the Ancient of Days that Isaiah wrote about is not the Almighty? We could look into this further.

As these were the first two founding prophets of the LDS church it does not say much for the foundation on which the Mormon church is built. There are great lots else major pertaining to Who God Is that LDS leaders have very wrong.

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

Seeing that the bible says we are heirs of G-d and joint-heirs with Christ.... Seems that we are due glory as we are one with and G-d is in us just like Jesus is one with and G-d is in him...

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 Yes, true, we are heirs & joint-heirs. Realize, however, there is that glory which is God's alone as uncreated Creator of all creation, glory that creation shall never have. His glory is infinite because He Is the Infinite, the Uncreated, the Creator of all creation. His glory is that of Himself, Splendor superscending all created order, glory & splendor that He had & was before ever he ever created man. We are & forever shall be finite, created. Without God's mercy we have no glory.

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

G-d's alone??? Then why did he share it with his Son? and if you believe the bible he will share it with us equally.  We are all uncreated. Your new age look of how we are is pagan. No can you back it up with your ink and paper idol...

You might not have glory... but that only means you are denying G-d.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 You are not worshiping God giving the glory due Christ as the Name that is above every name. Your idolatry of man is egregious. The puny, paltry presumption & arrogance of the church of Joseph Smith would be laughable if was not tragic for its members' insistence upon doctrines of demons & self deception. Bastardizing Bible by vaunting vainglorious imaginations of mere men does not serve the Truth, Christ Jesus. The King of glory calls you to repentance from your willful ignorance.

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

I'm not given to the idolatry of any man... like you are in the idolatry of a book. I believe Christ made us perfect and godly with the atonement. You can deny it... but that means you also deny Christ.

You guys claim to be born again but then deny everything that means... you keep the view that you are filthy rags and deny that Jesus has made us his equal. That is what the Atonement is... even the word "Atonement" means it.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 Phil. 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Sad that you refuse to bow the knee that Christ created you. The day is coming when you shall. The LDS minimalist view of the grand glory of the eternal Godhead!

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

I'm not LDS... but again when did i say i would not bow? I think you go yourself harm by making judgments like this. It is only G-d that can judge my salvation... not some dude on youtube with an ungodly hate for his neighbor just cause they are mormons.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 Re glory "G-d's alone??? Then why did he share it with his Son?

You err not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Will you continue bastardizing Bible belief & putting the words of Joe Smith over the Word of Christ, the uncreated Creator of all creation?

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire Re glory "G-d's alone??? Then why did he share it with his Son?

Are you saying that G-d can not share his glory?

You err is not knowing the nature of G-d.... or who you are.

Please show me where i've quoted JS. I never have... unless the topic is JS.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 "Re glory "G-d's alone??? Then why did he share it with his Son?"

You are saying not only that God did not create man, but also that Christ is not God?

You believe the heresy & blasphemy of Joseph Smith whether you want to admit it or deny it. For example, he teaches that man was not created, which you have stated that you believe & for which you have offered no scriptural support for whatsoever. I referred you to John Ch.1. which you have yet to handle. Know the glory of God!

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

G-d created us... I just don't believe your ignorant view of what that means. But where did i say that Jesus is not G-d?

I'm not sure why you keep bringing JS up... maybe it is a defense mechanism that you thinks is some sort of trump card... it's not... it just shows you inability to support your flawed logic.

I have no issues with John 1... And just read the bible... ex nihilo is not biblical.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 "ex nihilo is not biblical." Why is creatio ex nihilo not Biblical?

Where is your Scripture? In all your comments you have done diddly-squat to support your minimalistic, mormonistic claims of "God's" glory.

Clearly, you worship a god that by your own admission has not the glory of having even created man. You worship a god that is a creature-craftsman, actually IMPOTENT to create, merely able to manipulate matter, a god who is itself created, & NOT THE FATHER OF GLORY. EPH. 1:17

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

Because there is no word in Hebrew that means create. the translation is more that G-d built the world and everything in it. Read Genesis.

You have not given any proof just claimed your creed is right...

G-d created man... but not in your understanding of it.

I'm not a creature... so my G-d is not a creature craftsman like yours is.

I've never claimed my G-d or yours was created.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 Until you repent of your stinking thinking & vain imagination along the lines of Smith & spiders that

1. God was once a man

2. Christ is a carnal, creature-craftsman, impotent to create, merely able to manipulate

3. God did not create man

anything else & everything else you set forth is elementary & of little to no worth or consequence in ascribing to the Beautiful God the honor & the glory & the power due the superscendent splendor of His Name.

Love Mormons; abhor Mormonism.

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

1 so you deny that Jesus is G-d?? why the doulbe talk? Ether Jesus is G-d or he is not...

2 ? your creature craftsman must by you new theory.

3 G-d created men... just not they way you understand it.

everyting you have set forth is of no value.

you love to hate yourself... sad.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 "G-d created men... just not they way you understand it."

You back peddle when you feel you cannot substantiate your wild & whacky claims such as that God did not create man.

Who created matter? Who is the Father of spirits? Who is the Father of glory?

Certainly not the IMPOTENT god you bow to which merely builds like a baby given blocks for birthday.

Ps. 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

You creature. :)

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

I never said G-d did not create men... or all that exist. You just have a finite view of what that entails. Don't call foul for something you can not understand.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 Anything else & everything else you set forth is elementary & of little to no worth or consequence in ascribing to the Beautiful God the honor & the glory & the power due the superscendent splendor of His Name.

Love Mormons; abhor Mormonism.

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

You don't even know what Mormonsim is or what they teach.

[Shulamitefire]

@Sk8er408 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

You do err not knowing the Scriptures nor the power and the glory of God. You would rob Him of being the Creator of all.

[Sk8er408]

@Shulamitefire

you do err putting your faith in a book that has many many short comings when taken from the Hebrew context into the English approximate of meaning... but not the same history.

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish "Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction -- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." Thomas A. Edison

[majinish]

@Shulamitefire So lets apply this to you. Why do you believe in the Bible? Sure, its backed up by evidence as is the Book of Mormon. Do you believe in the Bible because of evidence or faith? If evidence didn't exist would you still believe in it? I believe in the Book of Mormon for the same reason I believe in the Bible: by faith. There's evidence for both but that has nothing to do with what I believe. Faith, as well as the Holy Ghost, is why I believe what I do.

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish The evidence for the wee Book of Mormon is that it is historical fiction, fabrication, fables, racism, plagiarism, a 19th century concoction. Take your head out of the church feed bag. Trinitarian theology & mormonis do not compliment one another.

[majinish]

@Shulamitefire The Book of Mormon is true. Evidence proves it. Trinitarian theology is something I know is heresy because it doesn't compliment the Bible.

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish Why are no maps present between the covers of Book of Mormon?

BoM certainly is 19th century fiction playing about with matters commonly discussed in Joe's day & locale. It is the fabrication of unsanctified imagination foisted on people with itching ears who have turned themselves unto fables. Joe: gold, glory, girls. He made quite the career of religious mythology.

Have you read all of B.F. Robert's Studies of the Book of Mormon? What do you know of the Mormon History Association?

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish Whate evidence do you have for BoM?

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish What is your explanation for Smitty's changing theology of the ontology of God that began with his modalism/Sabellianism? You did say that he was/is a true prophet did you not?

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish Thank you.

Telestial, a Joe combo of the words terestrial & celestial is another of his base bastardizations of the Bible. By the way, do you know why early Mormons were choking on this idea of 3 heavens? Because the only other sources of separate degrees in heaven came from occult writers such as Swedenborg during & before Smith's time.

The diaries of Orson Pratt & John Murdoch from the 1830's record their efforts to reassure members who questioned the 1832 "vision of heaven."

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish Spiritual sense says that any who is a true prophet of God gets right Who God Is existentially. It comes with the authority of God and with the anointing of His Spirit. A true prophet does not preach that God was Adam, particularly for decades, as did Brigham Young nor does he change his teaching that God Is drastically different ontologically to that which he had taught, especially for the duration of the several years previous, as was so with Joseph Smith.

majinish selah

[majinish]

@Shulamitefire And anyone who believes in the "trinity" heresy doesn't know who God is.

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish You failed to address any of Rob's statements regarding the topic of the video.

Please state precisely that which you object to in the video pertaining to the Trinity & exactly why. After that we may proceed to examine the modalism/Sabellianism that Smith taught in the 1830 edition of BoM & the ensuing changes that his personal confusion concerning the ontology of the Godhead forced. Also if you like we can discuss the Follett folly given less than three mos. before he was killed.

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish Oh, & why are maps commonly located between the covers of the Holy Bible but not ever in Book of Mormon?

[majinish]

Jews and Muslims do not recognize trinitarians as monotheists because by definition trinitarianism and monotheism are 2 completely different things. Monotheism is the belief in only 1 TRUE God, not a 3-in-1 God. Believing in deification isn't the same as henotheism. As said before, that's where you worship 1 God while you believe there are other "true" Gods. We worship the Father, who is the only true God, through the Son. Other beings have been deified but not to be worshiped. That's Biblical.

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish Until latter-day idolaters aka Mormons/the church of Joseph Smith repent of their stinking thinking & idiotic imagination that

1. God was once a man

2. Jesus does not atone for all sin

3. Christ is a carnal, creature-craftsman, impotent to create, merely able to manipulate

anything else & everything else they set forth is elementary & of little to no worth or consequence in ascribing to the Beautiful God the honor & the glory & the power due the superscendent splendor of His Name.

[majinish]

Did he seriously use Walter Martin as a reference? And I thought Rob was silly before. Now he's just a joke. By the way, he contradicted himself at 1:16-1:19 and 2:24-2:35. In regards to the "trinity" concept, that's subjective, not objective. We LDS are monotheists, not polytheists. Polytheists WORSHIP more than 1 God. Henotheists worship 1 God while acknowledging there's other supposedly "true" Gods. (continued)

[Shulamitefire]

@majinish "Did he seriously use Walter Martin as a reference?"

Do you seriously use Joesph Smith as a reference to Jesus Christ?

[Nepthu]

I agree with this guy but find his teachings style/voice boring. An hour of listening to him would be torture.

[GmaM11]

Chuck Missler has a point of view to add to this discussion. He addresses dimensionality....YHWH/Yeshua/­the Holy Spirit appear differently within different dimensions. He has a pretty good scriptural argument.

[jonnygotz2343]

We know that God is the only supreme and independent Being in whom all fullness and perfection dwell and that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and, by the power of his Spirit, omnipresent.

[jonnygotz2343]

We know thereby that he is a personal Being in whose image man was made. We know that he has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; that he is a resurrected, glorified, and perfected Being; and that he lives in the family unit. We know that we are his spirit children; that he endowed us with the divine gift of agency; and that he ordained the laws whereby we might advance and progress and become like him.

[jonnygotz2343]

These concepts summarize the chief and greatest heresy of Christendom. Truly the most grievous and evil heresy ever imposed on an erring and wayward Christianity is their creedal concept about God and the Godhead! But none of this troubles us very much. God has revealed himself to us in this day even as he did to the prophets of old.

[jonnygotz2343]

These creeds codify what Jeremiah calls the lies about God (see Jeremiah 16:19; 23: 14–32). They say he is unknown, uncreated, and incomprehensible. They say he is a spirit, without body, parts, or passions. They say he is everywhere and nowhere in particular present, that he fills the immensity of space and yet dwells in the hearts of men, and that he is an immaterial, incorporeal nothingness. They say he is one-god-in-three, and three-gods-in-one who neither hears, nor sees, nor speaks.

[jonnygotz2343]

and you cant be saved at 4... your under the grace until age 8 which is the age of accountability

[RSivulka]

@jonnygotz2343: Well I got saved from all my sins at age 3 or 4, and I was accountable then, and that's why I got punished prior to age 8. Age 8 is a myth made up by the LDS Church.

[jonnygotz2343]

@RSivulka No its age 8 for accountability

[jonnygotz2343]

this is the same Guy who talks trash during the general conference

[standup4America]

For some reason the video aborts in the middle of this video...all I have heard is very good and true info!

[RSivulka]

@standup4America: Ya, it did that to me too around 16:50. I left the page and came back to it, and move the time back to that point and it was fine.

[standup4America]

For some reason the video aborts in the middle of this video...

[MereMessenger]

Rob hits the bulls eye every time.