FPTP also provides the all-important "constituency link" which makes EVERY MP accountable to the electorate. Party lists (the shabby by-product of Proportional Representation) are just a way to pack the legislature with failed politicians and those who either cannot get elected or have been rejected by the electorate. Look at the make-up of the European Parliament and see how many of your local Euro MPs failed to make it to Westminster.
Party lists are a problem of the sort of proportional representation used for MEPs and MSPs. But the single transferable vote form of PR gives real choice to voters, letting them choose between several candidates from the same party, getting rid of the concept of "safe seats" and retaining a constituency link.
it is a typical conservative view;" Waffle waffle strong government, waffle waffle Conservatives are represented and thats all that matters", Lib Dems, Greens and other such parties the 1s who actualy want to make a difference not just Labour and conservative who are the same thing. In Euro our MEPS are elected with PR and more parties are fairly represnted WHICH SHOULD BE THE CASE.
You may have gained a set of councils and many councilors, but your gains have been so spread out that you are actually open to liberal democrat victories in many rural and urban areas. In my area we have had a gain of five liberal democrat councilors all taken from the Tories in their former strongholds.
One thing I'll say about LibDems, is that they're the absolute masters of spin and damage-limitation, by shear virtue of the fact that they can argue that black is white and that actually they had a good election result on May 1st. It gives us all a laugh and shows us that even in one's darkest days it is still possible to remain optimistic.
If it were not for FPTP system Clegg would be in Number 10. I ask about 100 teachers and parents who are you going to vote for - they all said I want to vote for Paddick but he wont get in - thats how everyone feels because of this system - just imagine if everyone who said that did, we would not have that blundering idiot in London
Your arguement does not stand up mate. London did not have first past the post, but the "Supplementary Vote" system. You make the classic mistake of treating the electorate like fools who don't understand that in order to get a Lib Dem elected they have to vote for one. And in addition, the Lib Dems always think they're bigger & more successful than they are, so it always comes as a shock to them when they don't get in. So they then blame the voting system for their woes!! P.S. well done Boris.
I hated Ken but to vote in that bufoon he might not be racist but he is the mayor of a multi cutural london who has said silly things in the past, by the way Suplementary vote is still a majoritarian, Brian Paddick is a true Londoner unlike Boris a posh toff from Oxford, anyway way more second preferance votes went to Paddick because the electorate and most of it our fools, why would 100,000 give BNP their second preferance wen BNP wont make it through.
Secondly Lib Dems have every right to blame the electoral system... in 2005 they got 22% of the vote and only 9% of seats compared to Labour who got 25% of votes and 55% of seats, well thats fair.
The FPTP system discriminates against LOSING parties. When Labour won in 1997 the Tories won 31% of the vote, but had only 25% of the seats in the House of Commons. They didn't blame the system because they accept that whilst it might not be perfect, it is still the best of all the voting systems around. FPTP produces decisive election victories and avoids the spectacle of unstable coalition governments - fine in theory, but look at Italy & Ireland to see how such things work in practice.
Ireland has a fine working government which passes laws which meets the ppls needs as for Italy and other European parliaments with PR there is a slight problem which in time will get sorted. I dont believe England necciseraly needs PR it needs Supplementary vote but which does not just put the top two foward it counts every party.
DaraghPhelan says "As for Italy and other European parliaments with PR there is a slight problem which in time will get sorted." A slight problem? Talk about understating the obvious!! Ireland may have a stable government, but it's always going to be a minority government, in which case you're never going to get radical change. Ireland may not need radical change, but my point is that the UK needs radical reform & change, and it's not going to get that with PR, STV or whinging Lib Dems.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that we call Britain the oldest and "greatest" democracy... oldest is right and that is our problem tradition will not allow us to become a real democracy. Like DaraghPhelan said earlier 22.1% of the votes and only 9.6%of seats now that is not the greatest democracy.
And what is your point exactly? Read my earlier posts and stop coming out with the same drivel about percentages. This debate has moved on. Either keep up or get back to your studies!!
The earlier comments u made said we should not underestimate the electorate you seem to be underestimating me you just basicaly told me to shoo, You did not answer my question it is not fair and is not a democracy. I dont understand how you can be a torrie look at thier symbol a tree painted by some one about 5, the conservatives were supposed to be the party for the rich and so on now the Torries are just Labour wanabes Cameron: "I'm the complete opposite of Brown unless you like what he said"
Alright LibDemYouth I'll be charitable. In answer to your question & if you had bothered to read any of my earlier posts you will have observed that on the subject of the voting system I said: "whilst it might not be perfect, it is still the best of all the voting systems around". My opinion granted, but the point I made was that if you win, then don't blame the system.
It's a bit like a minor league football club blaming the rules on goal-scoring for them not winning any games.
Also, you say you cannot understand why I am a "Tory" because their tree symbol looks like a five-year old have painted it? I don't particularly like the tree. I preferred the torch, but seriously, who in their right mind supports a political party because of their symbol. And you are studying politics? Scary!!
I was making a valid poijnt their symbol is now a tree because they "care for the enviorment" haha yet they are supposed to be the party for the rich and for farmers ect. So why you have moved left to the centre the Labour party ahve moved right to the centre the only partyt who still stands for what they stood for in the past is the Lib Dems.
like Daraghphelan said earlier supplementary vote where not just the top two go foward this is not a PR system and it is more fairer. comparing a league 2 ect football team to the British government? it is not like that. Lib Dems are not complaining because they did not get enough votes they got way more than enough votes for the third party but they didnt get enough!... well you know what I am going to say next.
Like I said before this is the internet and an internet debate spelling is not important you can understand what im saying. Whats worse a few spelling mistakes or a 33 year old man spending all his time debatign with a 16 year old?
Spelling is indeed important and so is good grammar. The fact that so many 16-year olds think that in this technological age spelling is irrelevant, says a lot about society in general. P.S. Life isn't fair, FPTP is probably the fairest system (for the third of fourth time of telling) and when you get to my age you'll look back to the time when you thought that all the worlds problems could be dealt with, with PR and a Lib Dem minority government - and laugh your head off!!
oh ok so we are using the old philosophy of "Life is not fair" that is a phrase which no one should use when referring to a "democratic government" what you are realy afraid of is a Liberal minority government with the support of Labour which would actualy bring about some change which is good and being a tory you dont like change a coalition government can still get things done but what it means for you is that the conservatives will not get into power jut like what has happened to the libs
If at the next election Labour won albeit without an overall majority and had to be propped up by Lib Dems, then I wouldn't blame the system. That's the difference between you and me.
Between 1997 and 2003, after 2 general election thrashings, we Tories were licking our wounds hoping that someday we would recover our standing with the electorate, yet we never sought to blame the voting system which allowed Libs & Labour supporters to vote tactically in order to keep the Tories out. Fact.
my apologies it was 35 it was a spelling error because im having a debate and dont have time to look at the keyboard. If you want to act all smart and smug go stand as a torrie MP im sure thats the characteristics they are looking for
FPTP also provides the all-important "constituency link" which makes EVERY MP accountable to the electorate. Party lists (the shabby by-product of Proportional Representation) are just a way to pack the legislature with failed politicians and those who either cannot get elected or have been rejected by the electorate. Look at the make-up of the European Parliament and see how many of your local Euro MPs failed to make it to Westminster.
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
Party lists are a problem of the sort of proportional representation used for MEPs and MSPs. But the single transferable vote form of PR gives real choice to voters, letting them choose between several candidates from the same party, getting rid of the concept of "safe seats" and retaining a constituency link.
LibDem 3 years ago
here here!
DaraghPhelan 3 years ago
it is a typical conservative view;" Waffle waffle strong government, waffle waffle Conservatives are represented and thats all that matters", Lib Dems, Greens and other such parties the 1s who actualy want to make a difference not just Labour and conservative who are the same thing. In Euro our MEPS are elected with PR and more parties are fairly represnted WHICH SHOULD BE THE CASE.
DaraghPhelan 3 years ago
Great LibDem success in Newcastle again!
DavidW47 3 years ago 3
A good set of election results? What on earth have you lot been smoking? You got shafted by the TORIES!!
Bring back Minge Campbell!
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
YorjshireDaz, at least Libdems got !% more than Labour with the national votes.
ukburger 3 years ago
I'm not bothered mate, I'm a Tory, and at least we got 20 percent more than Labour, but you cling on to your 1% if it makes you feel good!! :-)
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
You may have gained a set of councils and many councilors, but your gains have been so spread out that you are actually open to liberal democrat victories in many rural and urban areas. In my area we have had a gain of five liberal democrat councilors all taken from the Tories in their former strongholds.
h8bigbro 3 years ago
Good for you mate. Keep living in hope!
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
One thing I'll say about LibDems, is that they're the absolute masters of spin and damage-limitation, by shear virtue of the fact that they can argue that black is white and that actually they had a good election result on May 1st. It gives us all a laugh and shows us that even in one's darkest days it is still possible to remain optimistic.
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
In my local area, Labour stayed the same, Lib Dems GAINED 2 and Tories LOST 3.
I fucking hate the skewness of the electoral system.
George4Brad 3 years ago
I take it Clegg will soon be picking the wallpaper for number 10 then?
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
If it were not for FPTP system Clegg would be in Number 10. I ask about 100 teachers and parents who are you going to vote for - they all said I want to vote for Paddick but he wont get in - thats how everyone feels because of this system - just imagine if everyone who said that did, we would not have that blundering idiot in London
DaraghPhelan 3 years ago
Your arguement does not stand up mate. London did not have first past the post, but the "Supplementary Vote" system. You make the classic mistake of treating the electorate like fools who don't understand that in order to get a Lib Dem elected they have to vote for one. And in addition, the Lib Dems always think they're bigger & more successful than they are, so it always comes as a shock to them when they don't get in. So they then blame the voting system for their woes!! P.S. well done Boris.
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
I hated Ken but to vote in that bufoon he might not be racist but he is the mayor of a multi cutural london who has said silly things in the past, by the way Suplementary vote is still a majoritarian, Brian Paddick is a true Londoner unlike Boris a posh toff from Oxford, anyway way more second preferance votes went to Paddick because the electorate and most of it our fools, why would 100,000 give BNP their second preferance wen BNP wont make it through.
DaraghPhelan 3 years ago
Secondly Lib Dems have every right to blame the electoral system... in 2005 they got 22% of the vote and only 9% of seats compared to Labour who got 25% of votes and 55% of seats, well thats fair.
DaraghPhelan 3 years ago
The FPTP system discriminates against LOSING parties. When Labour won in 1997 the Tories won 31% of the vote, but had only 25% of the seats in the House of Commons. They didn't blame the system because they accept that whilst it might not be perfect, it is still the best of all the voting systems around. FPTP produces decisive election victories and avoids the spectacle of unstable coalition governments - fine in theory, but look at Italy & Ireland to see how such things work in practice.
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
Ireland has a fine working government which passes laws which meets the ppls needs as for Italy and other European parliaments with PR there is a slight problem which in time will get sorted. I dont believe England necciseraly needs PR it needs Supplementary vote but which does not just put the top two foward it counts every party.
DaraghPhelan 3 years ago
DaraghPhelan says "As for Italy and other European parliaments with PR there is a slight problem which in time will get sorted." A slight problem? Talk about understating the obvious!! Ireland may have a stable government, but it's always going to be a minority government, in which case you're never going to get radical change. Ireland may not need radical change, but my point is that the UK needs radical reform & change, and it's not going to get that with PR, STV or whinging Lib Dems.
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
You seem to be ignoring the fact that we call Britain the oldest and "greatest" democracy... oldest is right and that is our problem tradition will not allow us to become a real democracy. Like DaraghPhelan said earlier 22.1% of the votes and only 9.6%of seats now that is not the greatest democracy.
LibDemYouth 3 years ago
And what is your point exactly? Read my earlier posts and stop coming out with the same drivel about percentages. This debate has moved on. Either keep up or get back to your studies!!
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
The earlier comments u made said we should not underestimate the electorate you seem to be underestimating me you just basicaly told me to shoo, You did not answer my question it is not fair and is not a democracy. I dont understand how you can be a torrie look at thier symbol a tree painted by some one about 5, the conservatives were supposed to be the party for the rich and so on now the Torries are just Labour wanabes Cameron: "I'm the complete opposite of Brown unless you like what he said"
LibDemYouth 3 years ago
More spelling mistakes than the Guardian. Now shoo.
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
Alright LibDemYouth I'll be charitable. In answer to your question & if you had bothered to read any of my earlier posts you will have observed that on the subject of the voting system I said: "whilst it might not be perfect, it is still the best of all the voting systems around". My opinion granted, but the point I made was that if you win, then don't blame the system.
It's a bit like a minor league football club blaming the rules on goal-scoring for them not winning any games.
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
Also, you say you cannot understand why I am a "Tory" because their tree symbol looks like a five-year old have painted it? I don't particularly like the tree. I preferred the torch, but seriously, who in their right mind supports a political party because of their symbol. And you are studying politics? Scary!!
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
I was making a valid poijnt their symbol is now a tree because they "care for the enviorment" haha yet they are supposed to be the party for the rich and for farmers ect. So why you have moved left to the centre the Labour party ahve moved right to the centre the only partyt who still stands for what they stood for in the past is the Lib Dems.
LibDemYouth 3 years ago
like Daraghphelan said earlier supplementary vote where not just the top two go foward this is not a PR system and it is more fairer. comparing a league 2 ect football team to the British government? it is not like that. Lib Dems are not complaining because they did not get enough votes they got way more than enough votes for the third party but they didnt get enough!... well you know what I am going to say next.
LibDemYouth 3 years ago
Like I said before this is the internet and an internet debate spelling is not important you can understand what im saying. Whats worse a few spelling mistakes or a 33 year old man spending all his time debatign with a 16 year old?
LibDemYouth 3 years ago
Spelling is indeed important and so is good grammar. The fact that so many 16-year olds think that in this technological age spelling is irrelevant, says a lot about society in general. P.S. Life isn't fair, FPTP is probably the fairest system (for the third of fourth time of telling) and when you get to my age you'll look back to the time when you thought that all the worlds problems could be dealt with, with PR and a Lib Dem minority government - and laugh your head off!!
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
oh ok so we are using the old philosophy of "Life is not fair" that is a phrase which no one should use when referring to a "democratic government" what you are realy afraid of is a Liberal minority government with the support of Labour which would actualy bring about some change which is good and being a tory you dont like change a coalition government can still get things done but what it means for you is that the conservatives will not get into power jut like what has happened to the libs
LibDemYouth 3 years ago
If at the next election Labour won albeit without an overall majority and had to be propped up by Lib Dems, then I wouldn't blame the system. That's the difference between you and me.
Between 1997 and 2003, after 2 general election thrashings, we Tories were licking our wounds hoping that someday we would recover our standing with the electorate, yet we never sought to blame the voting system which allowed Libs & Labour supporters to vote tactically in order to keep the Tories out. Fact.
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
I think I'm finished this argument we all have our own views and I wont argue with a tory after I just had to argue with an ignorant BNP member
LibDemYouth 3 years ago
P.S. DaraghPhelan. In 2005 Labour got 35% of the vote. If you're going to bandy about facts & figures at least get them right!!
YorkshireDaz 3 years ago
my apologies it was 35 it was a spelling error because im having a debate and dont have time to look at the keyboard. If you want to act all smart and smug go stand as a torrie MP im sure thats the characteristics they are looking for
DaraghPhelan 3 years ago
I'm more than happy mate, the fact Libdems got more than Labour.
ukburger 3 years ago