I love this move, and when I show it to people there always in pain. However in live rolling I have never pull this off and this is coming from a guy who practice this move all the time. The thing is when your in a match and some guy has your back he will take the pain and snap your fingers he got the RNC on you. Theres lots of moves that work IF you let the person sit there and lt you get it on. But you be suprised how easy it is to get out. just move your leg fast and pull the guy back 4 rnc!
@b7r7u7c7e, it is definitely a high risk move and the RNC is a very dangerous threat that you have to respect. The Damage Control MMA group has made a few modifications for using this in MMA and it works very well. Just like any move, used in isolation it has it's limitations, but as part of a comprehensive back mount escape/counter plan it works very, very well.
A little Pro Wrestling trivia, Hiro Matsuda (Yashuhori Kojima) actually broke Hulk Hogans leg with this move. This happened in Hogan's first training session with Hiro.
@TakingItToTheMMAT On the program "The Voice VS" with Michael Schiavello Hulk actually explains the move (albeit not in extreme detail) he got caught with. As the story goes Hogan was tired and was tossed into the ring then Hiro sat and proceeded to break his leg. The Brisco Brothers (Jack and Gerald) also talk about it, as they are the ones who got Hulk into wrestling. It's a shame Hogan only stayed a year with Hiro, maybe wrestling would be less show ala Japanese shoot style.
you guys are awesome. i really appreciate that you are so open to all different styles. i also think you are good fighters and i always watch your clips. thanks for work and the effort you put in
I NEVER got this technique down right. And now that I've seen this video I know exactly why. I've been making too many mistakes trying to pull this off.
Thanks for the tip! Mr. Billy Robinson is a legend!!!
@The0extra0guy thank you so much. That is a very nice compliment. We've spent a considerable amount of time and effort ot catalog our techniques in the Members Only area of DamageControlMMA,com. We wouldn't know what to do with your kidney, but your membership would allow us to continue our adventures and deliver them to you. We've got over 160 videos up and counting. Come check us out!
@TakingItToTheMMAT I should thank you your vids are incredible. You have added so many surprises to my game. Its histerical pulling them off in training, the looks on my partner's faces when they say WHAT THE FRAK WAS THAT? lol. Yeah sure i'll splash out on that when i can lol. And who said it was my kidney the misses has been annoying lately hahaha
catch is awesome, and this move is in shooto combo 2 etc, but i have never seen anyone able to pull it off in a mma match? is their any clips of anyone submitting someone with this in mma that i can check out, because it is a great move im not sure why more people cant pull it off?
@shifudan I think it's because you don't want someone on your back, also the move is lesser known and even less understood. The choke and strikes are real dangers, BUT we've put together some MMA modifications and shared them in our members only area on DamageControlMMA,com. In fact we released the videos for the first time just last week.
Can someone please explain why a lot of grapplers (like the dude in this video) wear leggings? I'm not making a joke or anything; I've seen it many times and just wanted to know why.
that old guy is a fuckin genius i only heard about catch wrestling last night looks very effective we need some type of wrestling were i live instead of karate taekwondo classes everywere.
both catch and jujitsu/judo, basically came from the greeks al vie egypt, as the farthest back wrestling can be traced is egyp, and the japanesse got it through india and europe through the Greeks.
I believe in submission over position as in Catch because you may never get the chance to get the position. BJJ is more for position over submission. There in-lies the problem. RIGHTWINGCON81 mentioned he would have to ask his teacher. Not about Catch. 2 different schools and different applications. Submission over position because you have to be able to pull it off anywhere
robinson is much loner and bigger, thats why he cant reach him, i'm 6;5 and when guys tried that with me(usually shorter guys) i could alsys reach them, without any counter, just get o my knees and get their back, or a fist to the kneck.
Why doesn't the guy Robinson is shin locking bring his other leg over and spin out? There's no control of the thigh. That second leg is entirely free. Tony Cecchine showed this hold on the Lost Art of Hooking over a decade ago -- and there's a difference. Compare and contrast. I think I saw his clip here on Youtube.
I personally don't like this move because I'm a firm believer in position before submission and this is just poor position. That's not to say this won't work. Now on to your question (and I say this as a person who doesn't like the position) I don't think you can bring the other leg around and spin because tthe leg being attacked is pinned effectivly controlling you. I might ask my teacher about this to see his thoughts.
@RightWingCon81 The question was rhetorical, RWC81. The control is being placed on the knee, which allows you to bring your other leg over and spin out. You need to control the thigh -- what we're here told not to do. You may avoid the choke that way, but you also can't control the opponent. Search shin lock.
I'm not sure you know what the word rhetorical means. That aside, I can't see how a guy can spin if his OTHER LEG is pinned If a guy has his weight on your leg and is working a leg lock its hard to spin anywhere.I do see a counter though. If you look at 1:00 you'll see that the asian dude can hook his left arm under Robinson's arm extend the leg being attacked through and loop the free leg for an armbar.
@RightWingCon81 Whether you can see it or not, that's the easy counter. The guy's right leg is free. All he has to do is bring it over between his body and Robinson's back, and he'll heist right out. He wants to do that before the lock is fully applied, naturally, but that's the counter. If Robinson were up on the thigh, he'd be able to control the leg. He isn't, so he can't. There's a vid of the counter on our channel.
but remember that the real original Catch Wrestlers where as good as modern day Greco-Roman Wrestlers ,so the as far a positioning ,,,you think Randy Couture worries bout positioning? hell naw,,,the only difference is ,they had more understanding of submissions
Yes position before submission but if your in the guard and you step back out for an ankle lock to finish you transition to that position so its all relative. Different obviously from mount or side control.
be guarded is slightly less than a neutral position. And to sit back for an ankle lock is a different, and somewhat dangerous position, you can get mounted if you don't do it right, in a tournament it's a sweep and a pass.
is there submissions in other arts like sambo, bjj, etc. that are not in catch wrestling? just curious as someday i would like to take up a submission grappling style
nope. everything came from catch wrestling, most notably whats known in bjj as "the kimura". thats i move the japanese fighters from the kodoka learned from the catch wrestlers and its actually called a "double wrist lock" and the version of it taught in bjj is VERY different from the catch application. in bjj its a shoulder lock, but in catch its a wrist, elbow AND shoulder lock. it looks the same, but applied VERY dfferently. but anyway, catch has everything
there would be many techs in bjj and catch that are not in the other since they were geographically isolated from each other .The kimura was in jap jj which begat judo which begat bjj and also in catch.Since jap jj is hundreds of years old it couldnt have got it from catch.
Yeah jujutsu is hundreds of years old... >_> ????? catch as catch can wrestling has been around since the Roman fucking Empire invaded England. Which was THOUSANDS of fucking years ago!! Jesus. Catch was invented by a group of Lancashire wrestlers who didn't like the Greco Roman wrestling the Romans brought over with them. So they basically spliced Lancashire wrestling and changed Greco Roman wrestling, thus creating their own form of submission grappling: Catch as catch can.
Jujutsu hasn't been around as long but has still been around for more than a few hundred years. Greco roman/lancashire = catch as catch can, an english martial art. Just as billy Robinson himself said. Jujutsu - judo - Brazilian jiu jitsu. Catch is the number one combat sport in the world, like billy Robinson said. Everything else is taken from it. Don't even TRY and say catch copied bjj. Bjj is a whore who took moves from catch and slapped a Brazilian flag on it. The only thing it takes credit
bjj uses virtually nothing from catch and catch hasnt copied anything from bjj.There are many techs unique to each .Catch is hardly the no 1 combat sport in the world since its very small to non existant outside japan and is way behind judo,olympic wrestling and bjj in popularity.
formal wrestling methods may have begun totally indepedantly in the east and west,so we cant say 1 developed from he other or even started before the other.Greco roman is only a little over 100 years old and began in france but was based on older methods from the mediterranean.
Oh really??? So where did it get it's name from? I'll tell you... the kimura got it's name from Mr. Kimura, who used the move (but didn't invent it) not that long ago. He actually learned it from western Catch wrestlers and made it famous. Yes, Japanese jj is hundreds of years old, but not all of it's techniques are. Catch wrestling has been around for a very long time, and has contributed directly to Japanese jj, as well as Bjj. Do some research.
ude garami or thekimura was in the original kodokan syllabus in the late 1800s and ive learned it in trad jap jujitsu which is hundreds of years old.Kimura obviously didnt learn the tech from anywhere else.
@billysue2 some techs could have been exchanged between the alot of arts but also theres only so many ways the human body can move or not move, which would account for the overlap in techniques.
thatas obvious but the point thats being argued here is that bjj and judo derived from catch which is untrue given that jap jj the forerunner of both is over a thousand years old and in turn based on chinese wrestling methods which are at least as old as pankration.Anyway theres virtually no catch outside japan nowadays.
@billysue2 i agree with you, bjj and judo stem from Japanese JJ. As for catch wrestling i read somewhere its origins could possibly be pankration, not really sure on that though. As for catch only in japan its rare but you got some guys in canada
No it wasnt. It came from Catch. The Japanese only learned it from competing in professional wrestling and challenge matches with catch wrestlers--most notably Ad Santel in which he beat a few of them with a short arm scissor (aka in bjj, the bicep slicer). The Japanese hadnt developed such a move in jj yet. Helio Gracie nevr saw the dbl wristlock until Kimura beat him w/ it. Furthermore, GJJ didnt even have foot/leg locks until Rolls Gracie studied Sambo for a year in the late 70s.
the kimura is used in classical jujitsu which is hundreds of years old and had no interaction with catch as those guys never sparred..Since judo had ude garami sincethe beginning and its a basic tech helio must have known it since he learned judo from maeda.There were foot and leglocks in judo and also footage of carlos and helio doing footlocks in the twenties or thirties long before kimura was heard of.Its actually on youtube.
Helio didnt learn judo from Maedo, he learned it from watching Carlos teach it and he adapted it into GJJ. I bet you cant find this viedo you speak of on Helio & all them doing leg locks & stuf in the 20s & 30s, i BETCHA. GJJ did not have a system of leg attacks until Rolls came around & furthermore they were considered "dirty moves" Brazil at that time--much like hitting a guy in the balls. jujutsu is hundreds of years old, but the "
i know he didnt learn directly from maeda but it was maedas judo he learned.GJJ didnt have a great variety of leglocks and frowned upon them as they thought it discouraged guard passing.I know all about santel and him beating some judo experts.The footage is on gjj in action ,ill try and find a link for you,its a standing straight ankle lock /achilles crush.
put in bjj with helio and carlos gracie and youll see 2 examples of the ankle lock in the self defense section,Id say it was 40s or 50s by the age of helio,carlson was only a chap in it and hed be 75 if he was alive now.
haha, i saw that video the other day. one achilles lock doesnt constitute a "system". the system came from Rolls training w/ sambo and wrestling in the late 70s. And, in response to another comment of yours i saw: cacc is not "rare" in north america; its just not as popular as bjj. Frank AND Ken Shamrock have a legit catch school, Scientific Wrestling has toe hold clubs in NJ, Quebec, Utah (with Billy Robinson teacher of Saku), SoCal, Erik Paulson has one taught by Josh Barnett & Ashville, NC
@boobiesnbooties -- Did Ken Shamrock ever claim to be a catch wrestler? I mean, I realize that pro wrestling in Japan has become equated with catch wrestling, but if we go down that road, anybody who's ever wrestled pro is a catch wrestler.
@billysue2 Maeda faced catch wrestlers in Europe when he travelled to do challenge matches, with a troupe of Japanese pro wrestlers too. This was in the late 1800's / early 1900's. Not only that, but the European navy travelled to Japan for the silk trade among other goods, and this was in the 1600's after Japan was discovered by the Portugese in 1542. A lot of British navy had catch wrestlers since they often were "shanghai'd" into going and picked up different wrestling from all over
type in " Billy Robinson Double Wrist Lock" and fast forward to 1:10, Bare in mind, Billy Robinson is the "Last True Hooker Alive" according to Lou Thesz, the greatest catch wrestler of all time. And if you didnt know, "Hooker" is the catch word for "Grandmaster". If anyone still alive would know where this staple of catch came from it would be him.
Not to be a stickler, but the term Hooker was used to differentiate between shooters and rippers. A hooker was specifically someone that could wrestle AND submit.
Regardless, as much footage as possible needs to be made of legends like Billy. I'd like to see more of his setups. I'm happy to see the enthusiasm for Catch.
@boobiesnbooties -- Actually, Lou Thesz cited Tony Cecchine as a hooker. The clip is here on youtube. You can look it up. You might not agree with Thesz -- or you might agree selectively -- but let's not lie about what he said.
@KJGould -- Competitive record? If you say so. But that's not the point. The point is, you can't just bracket out whomever you feel like bracketing out. Thesz said what he said.
@palindabomb I never disagreed that Thesz is on record (video) and refers to Cecchine. I've seen the video in question several times before. But then I'm not going to Cecchine videos and criticising them. You mention a video series Cecchine did over a decade ago. Robinson has been Catch wrestling since the late 1950's and comes from one of if not the most famous Catch wrestling gyms of all time, so try to show a little respect.
@KJGould Respect? You mean, like don't point out the counter? I guess I don't understand what you're talking about. Was this clip posted as an instructional clip or not? And if so, how is noting that the lock as applied lends itself to an easy counter being disrespectful?
catch and sambo are very rare compared to bjj but equally as effective imo.Typically bjj is weak on takedowns while the other 2 are strong.The standard of bjj in america and most countries is also way higher than catch or sambo merely due to numbers practising.
98% of street fights end up on the ground, and in every ive been in, it ended up on the ground, so you better know some grappling, or you will get your ass kicked
that is completely exagerrated,how would anyone even arrive at an exact percentage like that.I train bjj and boxing and some mma but that was just gracie proganda.Ive seen lots of fights/assaults where only 1 was on ground either knocked out or getting kicked.
Where in this vid does it mention any thing about a street fight? Why does everyone on u tube always jump straight to street fight? Why cant we have vids about competition techniques? I agree MMA is not street fighting thats why its MMA. This is clearly a competition wrestling vid. Gives me the shits when you guys do that! How about comparing apples wit apples. Food for thought...
Awesome video. I used this in bjj class and it worked more than once. I also used the shin across the ankle bone from the video on your web site, and it also worked on much bigger opponents.
oh no no no! streetfight you wouldn't want to use moves like this. you will get choked out fast. eye gouge, fish hooks, hair pulling etc. in streetfight, you always want to end up on top. always. knockout or on top. top wristlocks, neckcranks chokes. etc. mma is not streetfighting.
You dont wanna go to the ground in a street fight. Too many unpredictable factors can hurt you, even if you're on top. You wanna strike fast and find a way to get escape the situation.
finally someone on youtube who has a clue how to fight!every once in a while i run into people like D26808 who have a clue on what works in reality not that mma crap. dont get me wrong it works beautiful in a cage but in a street fight it could get you killed
Oh haha thanks, and as much as I love MMA, the ground is not where you want to go... You know what I mean... You do an armbar, boom, you can get dropped on your head on concrete. Even if you successively do a submission, another guys gonna stomp you. I once saw a friend stab this guy that was doing a submission on him... Street fighting is a dishonorable thing, no rules, so if you play by the rules you will get hurt... Peace acidkid1984...
Oh I've had this move put on me -- it hurts like hell. But there's no "tapping" in a street fight -- so yes I'd be raking, fish-hooking, and punching to the back of the head before the move even came on.
It reminds me of a prison stabbing video that used to be on Youtube -- one guy takes the other down and gets top mount -- the other guy defends enough to get his shiv working -- top guy dies.
Good stuff folks, I love these pressure point tutorials. For the most part, it doesn't matter how big or strong you are --- pressure points will bring a giant to their knees. Thanks for the upload.
Actually, I was mistaken. Josh did not mention this on the Attacking The Guard DVD as I had mentioned. He mentioned it in a promo he did for a seminar with Minoru Suzuki a while back. Sorry for the mistake guys.
love the old school catch wrestling
TheMDBJJ 3 weeks ago
I love this move, and when I show it to people there always in pain. However in live rolling I have never pull this off and this is coming from a guy who practice this move all the time. The thing is when your in a match and some guy has your back he will take the pain and snap your fingers he got the RNC on you. Theres lots of moves that work IF you let the person sit there and lt you get it on. But you be suprised how easy it is to get out. just move your leg fast and pull the guy back 4 rnc!
b7r7u7c7e 6 months ago
@b7r7u7c7e, it is definitely a high risk move and the RNC is a very dangerous threat that you have to respect. The Damage Control MMA group has made a few modifications for using this in MMA and it works very well. Just like any move, used in isolation it has it's limitations, but as part of a comprehensive back mount escape/counter plan it works very, very well.
TakingItToTheMMAT 6 months ago
A little Pro Wrestling trivia, Hiro Matsuda (Yashuhori Kojima) actually broke Hulk Hogans leg with this move. This happened in Hogan's first training session with Hiro.
dannielpreto 6 months ago
@dannielpreto I've heard this as well. I'd love to see more documentation on the matter.
TakingItToTheMMAT 6 months ago
@TakingItToTheMMAT On the program "The Voice VS" with Michael Schiavello Hulk actually explains the move (albeit not in extreme detail) he got caught with. As the story goes Hogan was tired and was tossed into the ring then Hiro sat and proceeded to break his leg. The Brisco Brothers (Jack and Gerald) also talk about it, as they are the ones who got Hulk into wrestling. It's a shame Hogan only stayed a year with Hiro, maybe wrestling would be less show ala Japanese shoot style.
dannielpreto 6 months ago
you guys are awesome. i really appreciate that you are so open to all different styles. i also think you are good fighters and i always watch your clips. thanks for work and the effort you put in
icemanfede 6 months ago
@Scipio0 and what are the potential injuries with this submission? Or is it just extremely painful?
Scipio0 10 months ago
@Scipio0 and what are the potential injuries with this submission? Or is it just extremely painful?
Scipio0 10 months ago
@Scipio0 and what are the potential injuries with this submission? Or is it just extremely painful?
Scipio0 10 months ago
:12 LMAO, Brandon got the HELL outa there FAST!!!
wolfinndnclothing 11 months ago
Billy Robinson is one of the last true northern Englishmen. You'll struggle to find accents like his anywhere these days.
JBMontgomery87 11 months ago
i tapout from his lucifer voice
blusuck 1 year ago
duh, right leg over head.sorry
crazycasy 1 year ago
looks like a potiential arm lock if you can get your left leg over head?
crazycasy 1 year ago
This is called a shinlock or shinoval--this is a part of "Gorillajitsu"...BEAST
BrickLP 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
God bless you Mr. Brain. That looks very ,very, painfull!
Mr007batman 1 year ago
God blessyou Mr. Brain. That looks very ,very, painfull!
Mr007batman 1 year ago
thats sweet.
MMAfighter1555 1 year ago
I NEVER got this technique down right. And now that I've seen this video I know exactly why. I've been making too many mistakes trying to pull this off.
Thanks for the tip! Mr. Billy Robinson is a legend!!!
DoryokuFiripin 1 year ago
Brian, Brandon I wish I train with you guys. I'll trade a kidney for a training session haha ko
The0extra0guy 1 year ago
@The0extra0guy thank you so much. That is a very nice compliment. We've spent a considerable amount of time and effort ot catalog our techniques in the Members Only area of DamageControlMMA,com. We wouldn't know what to do with your kidney, but your membership would allow us to continue our adventures and deliver them to you. We've got over 160 videos up and counting. Come check us out!
TakingItToTheMMAT 1 year ago
@TakingItToTheMMAT I should thank you your vids are incredible. You have added so many surprises to my game. Its histerical pulling them off in training, the looks on my partner's faces when they say WHAT THE FRAK WAS THAT? lol. Yeah sure i'll splash out on that when i can lol. And who said it was my kidney the misses has been annoying lately hahaha
The0extra0guy 1 year ago
Everytime, Billy cranks too much and is completely oblivious to the guys tapping. That's a real O.G.
mrpopenfresh 1 year ago
This shit looks frickin awesome!
aperez515 1 year ago
It's hard to pull off when he is trying to choke you, but it does works sometimes
1lostinspace 1 year ago
The cookie monster is a grappling guru?
quathar 1 year ago 2
@quathar I have a lot of respect for robinson, but that is pretty funny
The0extra0guy 1 year ago
catch is awesome, and this move is in shooto combo 2 etc, but i have never seen anyone able to pull it off in a mma match? is their any clips of anyone submitting someone with this in mma that i can check out, because it is a great move im not sure why more people cant pull it off?
shifudan 1 year ago
@shifudan I think it's because you don't want someone on your back, also the move is lesser known and even less understood. The choke and strikes are real dangers, BUT we've put together some MMA modifications and shared them in our members only area on DamageControlMMA,com. In fact we released the videos for the first time just last week.
TakingItToTheMMAT 1 year ago
@2:30 but billy is totally right but very much just easy stuff shin compressin toe lock
MasterHatfield 1 year ago
@ 2:52 that was good point if see you are also more forward
MasterHatfield 1 year ago
loves this move works every time
MMAFAN1991 1 year ago
Can someone please explain why a lot of grapplers (like the dude in this video) wear leggings? I'm not making a joke or anything; I've seen it many times and just wanted to know why.
ErikPaulsonFan 1 year ago
@ErikPaulsonFan Without a gi it helps provide friction so you can work, also protects your skin from ringworm/staph
cuzz63 1 year ago
@cuzz63 Why is friction good when grappling?
ErikPaulsonFan 1 year ago
@ErikPaulsonFan Bare skin makes it easier for your opponent to pull out/escape.
cuzz63 1 year ago
@cuzz63 Gotcha. In my opinion, that's the best way to train; learn under the hardest conditions and you'll be ready for anything.
ErikPaulsonFan 1 year ago
that old guy is a fuckin genius i only heard about catch wrestling last night looks very effective we need some type of wrestling were i live instead of karate taekwondo classes everywere.
saxonwarrior23 1 year ago
he sounds like the guy from transformers 2 . haha the old decepticon who turned to an autobot haha . good video btw.
tkstar89 1 year ago
He is such a classic coach... great raspy voice and the cane... so awesome!
prestonhocker 1 year ago 2
both catch and jujitsu/judo, basically came from the greeks al vie egypt, as the farthest back wrestling can be traced is egyp, and the japanesse got it through india and europe through the Greeks.
bassreeves1965 1 year ago
this is a bad hold, I would do it if I was already in a rear naked, and had no other way out.
bassreeves1965 1 year ago
I believe in submission over position as in Catch because you may never get the chance to get the position. BJJ is more for position over submission. There in-lies the problem. RIGHTWINGCON81 mentioned he would have to ask his teacher. Not about Catch. 2 different schools and different applications. Submission over position because you have to be able to pull it off anywhere
neilneazer 2 years ago
robinson is much loner and bigger, thats why he cant reach him, i'm 6;5 and when guys tried that with me(usually shorter guys) i could alsys reach them, without any counter, just get o my knees and get their back, or a fist to the kneck.
bassreeves1965 2 years ago
this shin lock is EXTREMLY PAINFUL!!
but its really really hard to pull of when eating fists.
either way great video thanks for the upload!
blankseven1 2 years ago
ye hardly doing this shin lock when getting punch in the ear repeatedly.
morgall 2 years ago
Why doesn't the guy Robinson is shin locking bring his other leg over and spin out? There's no control of the thigh. That second leg is entirely free. Tony Cecchine showed this hold on the Lost Art of Hooking over a decade ago -- and there's a difference. Compare and contrast. I think I saw his clip here on Youtube.
palindabomb 2 years ago
I personally don't like this move because I'm a firm believer in position before submission and this is just poor position. That's not to say this won't work. Now on to your question (and I say this as a person who doesn't like the position) I don't think you can bring the other leg around and spin because tthe leg being attacked is pinned effectivly controlling you. I might ask my teacher about this to see his thoughts.
RightWingCon81 2 years ago
@RightWingCon81 The question was rhetorical, RWC81. The control is being placed on the knee, which allows you to bring your other leg over and spin out. You need to control the thigh -- what we're here told not to do. You may avoid the choke that way, but you also can't control the opponent. Search shin lock.
cecchinecatch 2 years ago
I'm not sure you know what the word rhetorical means. That aside, I can't see how a guy can spin if his OTHER LEG is pinned If a guy has his weight on your leg and is working a leg lock its hard to spin anywhere.I do see a counter though. If you look at 1:00 you'll see that the asian dude can hook his left arm under Robinson's arm extend the leg being attacked through and loop the free leg for an armbar.
RightWingCon81 2 years ago
**through**(read throw)
RightWingCon81 2 years ago
@RightWingCon81 Whether you can see it or not, that's the easy counter. The guy's right leg is free. All he has to do is bring it over between his body and Robinson's back, and he'll heist right out. He wants to do that before the lock is fully applied, naturally, but that's the counter. If Robinson were up on the thigh, he'd be able to control the leg. He isn't, so he can't. There's a vid of the counter on our channel.
cecchinecatch 2 years ago
but remember that the real original Catch Wrestlers where as good as modern day Greco-Roman Wrestlers ,so the as far a positioning ,,,you think Randy Couture worries bout positioning? hell naw,,,the only difference is ,they had more understanding of submissions
Ibalon2012 2 years ago
Yes position before submission but if your in the guard and you step back out for an ankle lock to finish you transition to that position so its all relative. Different obviously from mount or side control.
Bigturns33 2 years ago
be guarded is slightly less than a neutral position. And to sit back for an ankle lock is a different, and somewhat dangerous position, you can get mounted if you don't do it right, in a tournament it's a sweep and a pass.
RightWingCon81 2 years ago
thats so fucking badass!
Daski69 2 years ago 2
All fights do start from standing & yes SOMEBODY does end up on the ground-not always both parties- usually ending in a proverbial boot party...
JFDF69 2 years ago
is there submissions in other arts like sambo, bjj, etc. that are not in catch wrestling? just curious as someday i would like to take up a submission grappling style
Sunfist85 2 years ago
nope. everything came from catch wrestling, most notably whats known in bjj as "the kimura". thats i move the japanese fighters from the kodoka learned from the catch wrestlers and its actually called a "double wrist lock" and the version of it taught in bjj is VERY different from the catch application. in bjj its a shoulder lock, but in catch its a wrist, elbow AND shoulder lock. it looks the same, but applied VERY dfferently. but anyway, catch has everything
boobiesnbooties 2 years ago
there would be many techs in bjj and catch that are not in the other since they were geographically isolated from each other .The kimura was in jap jj which begat judo which begat bjj and also in catch.Since jap jj is hundreds of years old it couldnt have got it from catch.
billysue2 2 years ago
Yeah jujutsu is hundreds of years old... >_> ????? catch as catch can wrestling has been around since the Roman fucking Empire invaded England. Which was THOUSANDS of fucking years ago!! Jesus. Catch was invented by a group of Lancashire wrestlers who didn't like the Greco Roman wrestling the Romans brought over with them. So they basically spliced Lancashire wrestling and changed Greco Roman wrestling, thus creating their own form of submission grappling: Catch as catch can.
MeganFoxBukkake 2 years ago
Jujutsu hasn't been around as long but has still been around for more than a few hundred years. Greco roman/lancashire = catch as catch can, an english martial art. Just as billy Robinson himself said. Jujutsu - judo - Brazilian jiu jitsu. Catch is the number one combat sport in the world, like billy Robinson said. Everything else is taken from it. Don't even TRY and say catch copied bjj. Bjj is a whore who took moves from catch and slapped a Brazilian flag on it. The only thing it takes credit
MeganFoxBukkake 2 years ago 2
bjj uses virtually nothing from catch and catch hasnt copied anything from bjj.There are many techs unique to each .Catch is hardly the no 1 combat sport in the world since its very small to non existant outside japan and is way behind judo,olympic wrestling and bjj in popularity.
billysue2 2 years ago
For is rubber guard and gogoplata. Face it catch as catch can is the best, it is an English martial art. Everything else can fuck off.
MeganFoxBukkake 2 years ago
formal wrestling methods may have begun totally indepedantly in the east and west,so we cant say 1 developed from he other or even started before the other.Greco roman is only a little over 100 years old and began in france but was based on older methods from the mediterranean.
billysue2 2 years ago
Oh really??? So where did it get it's name from? I'll tell you... the kimura got it's name from Mr. Kimura, who used the move (but didn't invent it) not that long ago. He actually learned it from western Catch wrestlers and made it famous. Yes, Japanese jj is hundreds of years old, but not all of it's techniques are. Catch wrestling has been around for a very long time, and has contributed directly to Japanese jj, as well as Bjj. Do some research.
masterblastertkd 2 years ago
ude garami or thekimura was in the original kodokan syllabus in the late 1800s and ive learned it in trad jap jujitsu which is hundreds of years old.Kimura obviously didnt learn the tech from anywhere else.
billysue2 2 years ago
@billysue2 some techs could have been exchanged between the alot of arts but also theres only so many ways the human body can move or not move, which would account for the overlap in techniques.
Sunfist85 2 years ago
thatas obvious but the point thats being argued here is that bjj and judo derived from catch which is untrue given that jap jj the forerunner of both is over a thousand years old and in turn based on chinese wrestling methods which are at least as old as pankration.Anyway theres virtually no catch outside japan nowadays.
billysue2 2 years ago
@billysue2 i agree with you, bjj and judo stem from Japanese JJ. As for catch wrestling i read somewhere its origins could possibly be pankration, not really sure on that though. As for catch only in japan its rare but you got some guys in canada
Sunfist85 2 years ago
No it wasnt. It came from Catch. The Japanese only learned it from competing in professional wrestling and challenge matches with catch wrestlers--most notably Ad Santel in which he beat a few of them with a short arm scissor (aka in bjj, the bicep slicer). The Japanese hadnt developed such a move in jj yet. Helio Gracie nevr saw the dbl wristlock until Kimura beat him w/ it. Furthermore, GJJ didnt even have foot/leg locks until Rolls Gracie studied Sambo for a year in the late 70s.
boobiesnbooties 2 years ago 8
the kimura is used in classical jujitsu which is hundreds of years old and had no interaction with catch as those guys never sparred..Since judo had ude garami sincethe beginning and its a basic tech helio must have known it since he learned judo from maeda.There were foot and leglocks in judo and also footage of carlos and helio doing footlocks in the twenties or thirties long before kimura was heard of.Its actually on youtube.
billysue2 2 years ago
Helio didnt learn judo from Maedo, he learned it from watching Carlos teach it and he adapted it into GJJ. I bet you cant find this viedo you speak of on Helio & all them doing leg locks & stuf in the 20s & 30s, i BETCHA. GJJ did not have a system of leg attacks until Rolls came around & furthermore they were considered "dirty moves" Brazil at that time--much like hitting a guy in the balls. jujutsu is hundreds of years old, but the "
kimura" did NOT come from it. Wiki Ad Santel.
boobiesnbooties 2 years ago
i know he didnt learn directly from maeda but it was maedas judo he learned.GJJ didnt have a great variety of leglocks and frowned upon them as they thought it discouraged guard passing.I know all about santel and him beating some judo experts.The footage is on gjj in action ,ill try and find a link for you,its a standing straight ankle lock /achilles crush.
billysue2 2 years ago
put in bjj with helio and carlos gracie and youll see 2 examples of the ankle lock in the self defense section,Id say it was 40s or 50s by the age of helio,carlson was only a chap in it and hed be 75 if he was alive now.
billysue2 2 years ago
haha, i saw that video the other day. one achilles lock doesnt constitute a "system". the system came from Rolls training w/ sambo and wrestling in the late 70s. And, in response to another comment of yours i saw: cacc is not "rare" in north america; its just not as popular as bjj. Frank AND Ken Shamrock have a legit catch school, Scientific Wrestling has toe hold clubs in NJ, Quebec, Utah (with Billy Robinson teacher of Saku), SoCal, Erik Paulson has one taught by Josh Barnett & Ashville, NC
boobiesnbooties 2 years ago
@boobiesnbooties -- Did Ken Shamrock ever claim to be a catch wrestler? I mean, I realize that pro wrestling in Japan has become equated with catch wrestling, but if we go down that road, anybody who's ever wrestled pro is a catch wrestler.
palindabomb 2 years ago
@billysue2 Maeda faced catch wrestlers in Europe when he travelled to do challenge matches, with a troupe of Japanese pro wrestlers too. This was in the late 1800's / early 1900's. Not only that, but the European navy travelled to Japan for the silk trade among other goods, and this was in the 1600's after Japan was discovered by the Portugese in 1542. A lot of British navy had catch wrestlers since they often were "shanghai'd" into going and picked up different wrestling from all over
KJGould 2 years ago
@boobiesnbooties
Didn't Kimura Snap Helio's arm and choke him out in 30 seconds?
2431346 7 months ago
type in " Billy Robinson Double Wrist Lock" and fast forward to 1:10, Bare in mind, Billy Robinson is the "Last True Hooker Alive" according to Lou Thesz, the greatest catch wrestler of all time. And if you didnt know, "Hooker" is the catch word for "Grandmaster". If anyone still alive would know where this staple of catch came from it would be him.
boobiesnbooties 2 years ago 11
@boobiesnbooties
Not to be a stickler, but the term Hooker was used to differentiate between shooters and rippers. A hooker was specifically someone that could wrestle AND submit.
Regardless, as much footage as possible needs to be made of legends like Billy. I'd like to see more of his setups. I'm happy to see the enthusiasm for Catch.
ausgepicht 2 years ago
@boobiesnbooties -- Actually, Lou Thesz cited Tony Cecchine as a hooker. The clip is here on youtube. You can look it up. You might not agree with Thesz -- or you might agree selectively -- but let's not lie about what he said.
palindabomb 2 years ago
@palindabomb Lou Thesz also cited Billy Robinson, and Robinson has a legit competitive record in addition to his pro wrestling stuff.
KJGould 2 years ago
@KJGould -- Competitive record? If you say so. But that's not the point. The point is, you can't just bracket out whomever you feel like bracketing out. Thesz said what he said.
palindabomb 2 years ago
@palindabomb I never disagreed that Thesz is on record (video) and refers to Cecchine. I've seen the video in question several times before. But then I'm not going to Cecchine videos and criticising them. You mention a video series Cecchine did over a decade ago. Robinson has been Catch wrestling since the late 1950's and comes from one of if not the most famous Catch wrestling gyms of all time, so try to show a little respect.
KJGould 2 years ago
@KJGould Respect? You mean, like don't point out the counter? I guess I don't understand what you're talking about. Was this clip posted as an instructional clip or not? And if so, how is noting that the lock as applied lends itself to an easy counter being disrespectful?
cecchinecatch 2 years ago
@cecchinecatch I think you forgot to log back into your other account.
KJGould 2 years ago
@KJGould No, just depends on which computer I'm on. If you see this name, I'm using the Mac desktop and Firefox. The other is mobile.
cecchinecatch 2 years ago
@boobiesnbooties would you then consider Sakuraba a "Hooker"?
panther2552 1 year ago
@boobiesnbooties check out my old master roy woods
discstu866 1 year ago
Comment removed
JBMontgomery87 11 months ago
@boobiesnbooties I'm pretty sure "hooker" is just the catch-as-catch-term for a wrestler who uses submission holds in shoots (legit matches).
JBMontgomery87 11 months ago
catch and sambo are very rare compared to bjj but equally as effective imo.Typically bjj is weak on takedowns while the other 2 are strong.The standard of bjj in america and most countries is also way higher than catch or sambo merely due to numbers practising.
billysue2 2 years ago
100% of all fights start standing up
xbasel2006x 2 years ago
no shit sherlock
billysue2 2 years ago
98% of street fights end up on the ground, and in every ive been in, it ended up on the ground, so you better know some grappling, or you will get your ass kicked
celticsrbest 2 years ago
that is completely exagerrated,how would anyone even arrive at an exact percentage like that.I train bjj and boxing and some mma but that was just gracie proganda.Ive seen lots of fights/assaults where only 1 was on ground either knocked out or getting kicked.
billysue2 2 years ago
Where in this vid does it mention any thing about a street fight? Why does everyone on u tube always jump straight to street fight? Why cant we have vids about competition techniques? I agree MMA is not street fighting thats why its MMA. This is clearly a competition wrestling vid. Gives me the shits when you guys do that! How about comparing apples wit apples. Food for thought...
ImpactJujitsu 2 years ago
Awesome video. I used this in bjj class and it worked more than once. I also used the shin across the ankle bone from the video on your web site, and it also worked on much bigger opponents.
masterblastertkd 2 years ago
there are a couple people that teach catch as catch can for the streets.
alfredtink 2 years ago
oh no no no! streetfight you wouldn't want to use moves like this. you will get choked out fast. eye gouge, fish hooks, hair pulling etc. in streetfight, you always want to end up on top. always. knockout or on top. top wristlocks, neckcranks chokes. etc. mma is not streetfighting.
alfredtink 2 years ago
You dont wanna go to the ground in a street fight. Too many unpredictable factors can hurt you, even if you're on top. You wanna strike fast and find a way to get escape the situation.
D26808 2 years ago
finally someone on youtube who has a clue how to fight!every once in a while i run into people like D26808 who have a clue on what works in reality not that mma crap. dont get me wrong it works beautiful in a cage but in a street fight it could get you killed
acidkid1984 2 years ago
Oh haha thanks, and as much as I love MMA, the ground is not where you want to go... You know what I mean... You do an armbar, boom, you can get dropped on your head on concrete. Even if you successively do a submission, another guys gonna stomp you. I once saw a friend stab this guy that was doing a submission on him... Street fighting is a dishonorable thing, no rules, so if you play by the rules you will get hurt... Peace acidkid1984...
D26808 2 years ago
or hit a throw on them and run away.
luchador1764 2 years ago
Your right though -- this move hurts like hell -- we use it all the time. I learned this move back in '97. I love Catch
OctoBox 2 years ago
Ok that old guy is kick ass!
LLMelvinL 2 years ago
I love this move -- on the street you will get a facelift or rocked in the back of your head.
OctoBox 2 years ago
rofl he will be in so much pain he wouldint think of hiting you and if he dos.....take that fucking ankle for keeps.
starbladexd 2 years ago
Oh I've had this move put on me -- it hurts like hell. But there's no "tapping" in a street fight -- so yes I'd be raking, fish-hooking, and punching to the back of the head before the move even came on.
It reminds me of a prison stabbing video that used to be on Youtube -- one guy takes the other down and gets top mount -- the other guy defends enough to get his shiv working -- top guy dies.
Sparring or tournament - yes
Street fighting - no
In a street fight only breaking moves
OctoBox 2 years ago
ouch ouch! i give up
shigetograppling 2 years ago
thank you.i get stuck in this position alot and end up going to full guard. i love leg locks. thank you another move for the arsenal
acidkid1984 2 years ago
I tried it on myself. Works great!
frankenstein01 2 years ago
Ha ha LOL :)
That's awesome!
TakingItToTheMMAT 2 years ago
Good stuff folks, I love these pressure point tutorials. For the most part, it doesn't matter how big or strong you are --- pressure points will bring a giant to their knees. Thanks for the upload.
mankyller 2 years ago
I think that pressure points work really well if you combine them with something else.
hkdharmon 2 years ago
What happened to the butterfly negation! Boooooooo
patricknipsports 2 years ago
It's FREE at DamageControlMMAdotcom. It's an exclusive
TakingItToTheMMAT 2 years ago
Gotta Love Robinson. Fujiwara is another old-school Catch guy with incredible material. Fujiwara's shin-lock is very, very similar.
DJColdfusion 2 years ago
Actually, I was mistaken. Josh did not mention this on the Attacking The Guard DVD as I had mentioned. He mentioned it in a promo he did for a seminar with Minoru Suzuki a while back. Sorry for the mistake guys.
TakingItToTheMMAT 2 years ago
nice video guys
Anjitsu27 2 years ago