To that old saying, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Or, maybe we should also debate whether Melville intended something sexual by a white sperm whale. All sorts of things such as these can be academically debated in academic settings. However, I am somewhat perplexed by the energy that some people have taken to debating racial issues - over a video. I know Erin decently well, I think, and I know there was no racial intent on the video.
Because I do know Erin, I don't think the intent had anything to do with the debate below, but frankly because she might have not wanted to make the song tooo sultry (which the song naturally conveys) but was trying to lighten up the mood of the song and be playful. The song is amazing, and for those who would be too hard toward Erin, you might ask yourself if any of your past efforts were mis-interpreted and try to give her a break. Erin is incredibly sweet and only tries to be kind.
False premises and overgeneralizations aside, Jenn, I think you are deep down trying to do something positive. So go out there into the big world and take charge to make a change.
Furthermore, do you think the intent of the people who called other people monkeys (in American history of Racism) did so with the intention of comparing them with tree-welling fruit eaters, or by labeling them as primitive, inferior animals? Their intention was to label a group as primitive, inferior human beings.
Now take a look at the ape (not monkey) in this film. Does he look very primitive to you? He doesn't seem primitive or inferior (imho)-- he seems like a cognizant great ape
Its ok, Jenn, I forgive you. You gave it your best shot, you really did. Unfortunately, you just were not able to justify your claims. I respect and accept your resignation from the continuance of this discussion.
Also, who is the average person? I thought it was only those who are somewhat or fully aware of racial issues that would make the connection between "chocolate and a black lover." Is that the average person? What is average? You seem to not be aware of your gross generalizations. Over generalization is a logical fallacy (I recall you bringing up the straw man argument so you might want to check your notes).
And... somehow I don't think you're done here. You've returned again and again and again... yet you've failed to rationalize several of your own claims. You gave up on them. I'm happy to continue questioning your logic, its something I do for fun.
Jenn, I am happy to see you give up and find a better forum to promote racial awareness. But I am sad to see you give up, and fail to justify your arguments and claims. I wasn't trying to win anything, this isn't a contest. All I've lost is your presence, which, I can't consider that a bad thing.
A lover compared to chocolate? Chocolate is exchanged between lovers-- Who are you to speak for the entirety of our culture?
... and I'm out. I will no longer be looking at this. Anyone who goes back and reads will see for themselves that you are responding in a foolish fashion. I am using this as an exercise in developing my capacity to let go of an argument without having the last word. As for the video, well.... truth comes out and people get exposed so I am not to worried about it. We will have a chat at some point Patrick, so until then, enjoy. You lose.
When you ask the average person what they think of when you describe a song where a lover is compared to chocolate, most people will say that they think it is about a black lover. Try this, ask around. The lover is depicted by a monkey. That's it. That is all there is to it. It is easy to understand. I do not claim to be the person you are saying I am not, and again, this is about the video not me. I am not claiming to change history here, like I said, I am simply speaking for those offended.
Should everyone take a white guy in a gorilla outfit in a song called chocolate as a racist, because you think its racist, Jenn?
Use your imagination here Jenn, think of any ape species in the world. Place it into a song called sexual healing featuring a cameo Vanilla Ice. Is that racist? Or is it only racist if the ape is an ape costume, rather than an actual ape?
I think to do so completely misses the point of art and creativity.
Do you think white men/women wearing gorilla suits/masks during Halloween are racists?
What if they were singing some song involving chocolate and sex?
I'm sorry, but personally, I don't think I am uninformed on racism and the history of racism & slavery in America, for not drawing a myopic conclusion such as yours, which you are apparently unwilling or incapable of justifying.
But Jenn, hear me out on this one: I don't go around calling every film featuring a human actor in a gorilla costume a racist, whether or not it features a beautiful white woman nor if it's called chocolate. Just because you draw those symbols from your love of the history of racism in America, and R&B song involving the word "chocolate", doesn't mean everyone should misconstrue the intent of this film into thinking it is a derogatory form of hate meant to denigrate black people.
Oh, by the way, Erin Ivey was born white. I don't think that's something we can edit out so it doesn't offend people.
And, check this out: Chocolate and gorillas are both brown.
It is unfortunate that there was racism in this country and some white people called some black people monkeys. Let me remind you, Black people are not monkeys. But we are all great apes.
You're labeling this with a term that you want to bring awareness to an issue. You've said that this is a great way to bring attention to the issue. Clearly you're not very experienced in the realm of utilizing public communication to bring visibility to specific issues-- e.g. How many people read the newspaper in Central Texas? How many actions to bring awareness to issues are featured in newspapers daily? (let me remind you, social media and public forums are forms of public communication)
Oh by the way you mentioned that you're not required to justify your claims to me. In that case, you're not required to justify them to anyone. In which case, what is the point of making claims of such unrespectable and/or unknown value-- especially you're unwilling to even justify them in such a open, free, public forum as this? If you're not going to justify your claims, why make them? They are value-less in such cases of unjustification. Unpack them, you sociologist. Justify yourself.
Jenn... I honestly don't understand what you are trying to prove. Personally, I like exercises in debate and picking apart logic, so I find this amusing.
You claim to be an outspoken sociologist student who is an advocate for racism awareness. I honestly don't find you to be a strong advocate given that you don't have enough passion and motivation to organize political action. Instead you sit down in a comfy chair and write 500 word comments on one of millions of videos on youtube.
Or could it? Are we just calling black people monkeys here? Or is there no other skin tone of gorillas? Personally I have never seen an albino gorilla, howler monkey, spider monkey, etc. For this particular video, the mask available was chocolate complexion, and it was chosen. Why? The name of the song is chocolate. The gloves were spray painted from a reddish-brown color to a darker brown to match the mask. Do you see the logic here? Is that the logic of hateful racist art?
I am not defensive, angry, or lack understanding. I am defensive, angry, and lack understanding, to you. To me, you have yet to explain what this symbolism is, and how it compares to racism as it is defined terminologically-- the denigration of certain groups of people-- such as violence or hate speech. You're claiming that in this video, a great ape of chocolate complexion represents a black person, and that somehow it is insulting. Well, it couldn't be insulting without white privilege.
You misunderstood me, I brought up white privilege to explain you're defensiveness, anger, and lack of understanding. I have explained many times why people, including myself, think, "that's racist" when they see the video. It is because of accepted symbolism. It is quite basic, most people get it regardless of their field of study. I think you're right though, since you have made this such a deeply personal attack it is better resolved in person. Your insults are not helping your argument.
Jenn, this video does not implicitly denigrate anyone of any ethnicity. Therefore, it is by definition not racist. You however, are by definition, incapable of forming a coherent argument. Please refrain from polluting this forum with ignorance in the future. If you truly gave a damn about changing society to respect racial differences, you would organize a movement. Clearly you're a lazy poser who prefers to attack local artists and musicians with false accusations.
Now, go ahead and go back down and answer the 4 questions that I posed to you. If you're unable to do so, clearly you are unable to defend your claim and view point. That makes you a failure of a sociologist and a failure of a racial philosopher. I knew this from the get go-- no one intellectual shouts "Thats Racist!" without backing it up and defending their claim, because simply put, it is a stupid and ignorant thing to do. Thus I associated you with these qualities immediately.
Sorry Jenn, you obviously do feel the need to defend yourself to me, as this is what you have been doing for days on end. Furthermore, You claimed that even if the woman was hispanic, the video would be racist. You claimed this, but when I asked you to clarify, just how it is racist if the premise is white privilege... well, looks like you gave up. Which is what I expected, because clearly you don't know what you're talking about. And thats fine, you have clearly demonstrated such to be true
Jenn, you did not identify this video as anything. You stated your myopic and unrationalized opinion without even thinking, later you went back to figure out what you meant and defend your assertion. You clearly don't understand racism. If you did, you rather than saying "THATS RACIST!" You would have said, "Interesting, this video has some nuances that could, depending on the viewer, have implications that could be construed as racially insensitive." It is not racist though, by definition.
Patrick, I identified a video as racist. Perhaps it was not intentional, but if it is not, it is implicitly racist. You asked why it was racist, so I explained it to you. You refuse to understand, so I offered an intellectual explanation for your lack of understanding. You don't want to hear it. I am tired of you attacking me. I do things other than critic this video, more structural things, but I don't feel the need to defend myself to you. You are trying to make this about me, and it's not.
Slavery has been institutionalized since at least 3,500 BCE in the codex of Hammurabi btw. Do videos featuring breakdancing Iraqis therefore count as racism? (This is what is known as an "analogy") Do you see the spectrum of history here? Also, take a moment to read about ethical relativity. Let me sum it up for you: "Your ethics are a product of your society" -- Aristotle Now there is an interesting discussion: the interplay of ethical relativity in racism and slavery.
Seriously Jenn, the more time you spend commenting on youtube, the less you're actually making the changes that you claim to care so dearly about. Hypocrite much? Yeah, so get out there and start making some changes. Hypocritical posers are the silliest....
Next MLK Jr. day, Jenn, if you don't organize a march of at least 50 people, I'd say you're a poser: you want to be seen as an advocate for positive race-relations and an erudite sociologist philosopher on the topic of race, yet this is the extent of your activism? Wow.. get out of here, get off youtube, and start visualizing your movement, identifying your allies and contacting them, writing some faux press releases for your event so you can get your vision down.
Jenn, you think writing comments on a music video that will soon be drowned out by other comments is activism? WOW! You have a lot to learn (and that is me being polite).
Check out wellstone . org for some tips and tools on organizing grassroots coalitions. Have you heard of the concept of visibility? Do you think your activism is most visible here? Or are there perhaps other, more impactful outlets in which you could call for changes and proactive, positive action?
I'm really just disgusted... like.. god damn. This woman is serious. I don't know if I should laugh or try not to get angry that I have to share my air and land with people like you... who call themselves educated. Wow... I'm actually offended. You should be ashamed for comparing this film with prejudice, hateful and hurtful acts of racism.
Maybe you need to look at some history books, you forgot the history of racism in this country?
I'm going to puke in my own mouth if i keep this up...
I'm sorry Jenn, I am just astonished and disgusted that you would compare this film to true acts of racism... It tells me how inconsiderate you are and how little you self-analyze your own thoughts before shouting your outbursts of racism at creative individuals.
I think Jenn, that you hold the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability. Because you seem to believe that in this video, a form of expressive art open for interpretation for all, Erin Ivey is privileged because of her race. How about her beauty? Her voice? Her musical abilities? And the ape.. that seems like a pretty privileged ape to me: he hooks up with a human in the end. Sorry Jenn, I think you're a very silly person who doesn't practice what they preach.
By the way, by calling this video racist, you're implying that you know what the beliefs of the producers are. How incredibly prejudice are you to assume that you know what the producers believe and intend with this film? Wow... I'm so sad that this is the country I live in, with this kind of electorate...
Racism:
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Personally, Jenn, you are discriminatory and racist in my opinion. Note: in my opinion. The perception of racism is based on subjective factors that objectively may or may not be viewed as racism. For example, killing innocent people because of their skin color? Yeah, i'd say we could all agree that is racist.
A white woman appearing in a film with an ape-actor? Well.. then Planet of the Apes is certified racist. Personally, I disagree: ones perception determines what is represented.
Question 4: Do we need to consult with sociologists before we can shoot a music video? If so, which sociologists and why? Are sociologists capable of having divergent opinions?
Please answer my questions if you are truly an advocate for reasonable objective debate on the topic of racism within open forums.
1. Hispanics ok? (if not, why not?) 2. Any apes ok? (if not, why not?) 3. A new one: If Erin Ivey was Norwegian and the video was produced in Nigeria would it be ok?
Jenn, I don't think you understand the dichotomy at play: One can intend racism, and one can perceive it. Just because one perceives it, doesn't mean everyone does. And just because one perceives it, doesn't mean it was intended.
To call this racism is to make light of lynching, to make light of institutionally denigrating ethnicities such as blacks and hispanics.
Are you saying this producing this video denigrates black people? Does it disparage, insult, castigate, ostracize them?
All you're doing is preaching. Well, start practicing. All you're doing is displaying how uncreative and inconsiderate you are as a person, by criticizing a video for something it has nothing to do with.
By the way, please answer my question: If your premise is white privilege, how is this video racist if the woman was Hispanic?
I have another brain buster: Could we use apes at all, or are we prohibited, for fear of eliciting calls of "racism" among sociologists such as yourself?
Jenn, yes, you are "doing something". Banging your head on a wall in an empty room is also doing something. But what have you produced? What have you changed? I'm sorry, but I don't see you drawing nonexistent connections as a productive use of your time as a sociologist. You should at least write a paper on this video and publish it. Otherwise you're BSing us all by claiming to be a stalwart advocate of race-awareness in every topic encountered in life. Practice what you preach.
Patrick, impacting all levels of society include open forums on music videos. Speaking out against this video is something I am doing as an advocate for people in the local austin music scene who are deeply offended,me included. Interrupting and acknowledging racism in music videos IS doing something. Addressing racism includes things in addition to passing legislation and lobbying. It is also important to make people think and show people hurt by racism that they are understood and represented
"Primates don't have races because it is a human social construction." Race is a human construct (so is chocolate, and all other words and concepts tinkering around in that big ol brain of yers) that is applied to humans (great apes)-- and a very problematic one at that from a social & scientific perspective-- what is your point?
"And you're wrong, even if it was not a white woman in the video it would still be offensive." We have a claim, now what is the premise, if its not white privilege?
"Racism is not just about one's own experience, view of the world, or personal interaction with others. It is a phenomenon that effects all levels of society. The institutionalized racism in this country has implicit effects."
Yes, racism was institutionalized with slavery and segregation and its impact and vestiges still remain. Please point them out-- the drug law, prison system, environmental regulations, city planning, point them out-- And then do something about it. Organize a lobby day.
Be proactive, if this is your issue, start making some changes. Find the passionate people out there. We can hope, but I don't think your State or Federal legislators or their offices are going to see the comments of this film, so why not bring these issues to their attention, if you're so passionate? Maybe a little practicing what you're preaching? Get out there and take action. I helped pass legislation in the Texas 81st legislature with a student group while in college.
Kyrakaos, you still don't get it. Racism is not just about one's own experience, view of the world, or personal interaction with others. It is a phenomenon that effects all levels of society. The institutionalized racism in this country has implicit effects. This video is offensive, not on an individual level. It is not about mannerisms, behviors, or thought process. It is about our society thinking we are in a post-racial era where this kind of stuff is overlooked when it shouldn't be.
We all wear masks. I choose to look past them to what really matters...the heart. I dare you to try this. Try looking not at what they have, or who they know, or how they look, or sex, or class, or race, or religious beliefs...but their true self. What you feel when you're around someone. I do study people. I love watching mannerisms and behaviors. Why people do things a certain way. It's fascinating to me. To actually see their thought process. Reading people in a positive way.
I have yet to attack you. And, yes, I admit that I have a lot to learn. You never stop learning. When that happens, you stop living. But you are falsely accusing me and I have a right to defend myself. It's not this video that I'm defending...it's my view. Everyone has their own. I'm not angry. I understand that you view the world differently than I do maybe because of your experiences and what you were taught. And that's OK. But I just wish that you would look at it differently. That's all.
It's funny too, cause I was told by some folks you would respond exactly how you did to the information I offered you. I was told by some peers that people unaware of their privilege will make fun of the information, attack me personally by suggesting I think I am superior, and get angry. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but they will be happy to read that every aspect of their theory was correct.
It's a choice what you find and see. What are you looking for, Jenn? Are you happy? Content with yourself? Where are you on YOUR journey? That's the question you have to ask yourself rather than asking me. Everyone is traveling their own path and have obstacles to overcome on their own. We are here to help each other out along the way. We live in the same world. But you choose where you want your mind to take you. To love and happiness? Cheers!
I am sorry you don't understand, really, it's sad. You and kyra both took part in the making of the video, which explains the defensiveness. You are obviously not aware of racial issues, cause even people who do not study people understand why this video is percieved as racist. You feel a need to defend it because you are part of it. I, on the other hand, only stand to be attacked, misrepresented, and perhaps piss of some close acquaintences. Stop talking so much crap. I'm right.
Jenn, If you see hate, you can see love and vice versa. It's your choice what you see in this video and in day-to-day life. If you choose to see love, happiness will follow. Because like love, happiness is a state of mind which has physical effects on the body. It links mind, body & spirit/soul/energy...what you will. But you must first choose to look at it from another/different/new perspective. Which you totally discarded my view. Inside all of us there is chaos; but there is also love/beauty
Patrick, you're right. I do study social sciences and am seeking a graduate degree in social work, and I did run this by some professors, who also agreed that this was really offensive. A lot of people are offended by this video. I am happy to speak for them and will continue to do so. Primates don't have races because it is a human social construction. And you're wrong, even if it was not a white woman in the video it would still be offensive.
I'd say Orangutan (cuz he has that off balance, top heavy strut), Howler (cuz he clearly knows how to smoothtalk with the bouncer), and Gorilla (cuz he seems like a rebel, plus he's built) personally... All of those species are also relatively chocolately color, so it only makes sense.
I want this video to get more views and comments! I am wondering if people think that the ape is a quarter asian, a quarter native american, and half black, because thats how he seems to me, with the kung fu kicks, the mystical understanding of women, and his rough but attractive smoothness. He's super-great-ape! With DNA from apes from around the world, likely due to the genetic engineering that comes along with being on the Planet of the Apes here on the verge of the future.
Lose your charts and theories for a moment and watch this video. You can't, can you? Its so ingrained in your way of thinking, no wonder you interrupt other peoples' moments to compulsively inject your own associations and learned theories of racial inequities into whatever subject or discussion that may hold the even the smallest possibility of being misconstrued and interpreted as promoting racism. You have that right though. And I'm here to tell you that you're silly and a downer :)
Jenn, stop kidding yourself. People including myself fall within various aspects of all of the categories of your chart. We're not set in one particular stage that progresses linearly. Individuals are all over the map based on their personal experiences. Thanks for being such a hypocritical silly ignorance-monster to summarize for me, my life experiences and how they dictate whether or not I am racially ignorant and misinformed (in your view).
Jenn is racially autonomous. She has reached self actualization. She is of those few who fully understand racial issues and therefore is qualified to lecture the masses on the theories of racial bias and ethnic identity development. She claims that we probably do not show "Appreciation and respect for the identity struggles of people of those in the minority" as she does, given that she is of the exalted few to have reached the 7th level of racial-understandingness nirvana
Jenn fancies herself a social scientist and its very amusing to me. Its ok Jenn, I do appreciate you bringing to light another perspective, even though it isn't truly your own and yet you seek to represent it. Yes, I am a college graduate, thank you. Perhaps you could make that trip to discuss it with the PhDs and let us know how it goes. I'm not the one claiming this video is racist, you are. So please go ahead and speak with an expert and determine if you're correct in their view.
I'm happy to see that you consider yourself informed on the topic of race, Jenn, but the rest of us are less informed on the theories of sociologists. When you're interested in something it often occupies your mindspace and influences your perspective, so keep that in mind. Also, thanks for generalizing about how people of color (who is that by the way? please be specific) see the world, I'm sure all how many billion of them appreciate your conjecture.
I imagine that if the woman was Hispanic, this video would be just fine. But since she's white, and Jenn is a scholar on the topic of race, she is compelled by (personal virtue and self righteousness) to inform us that this video is absolutely not okay.
Let me help you out here Jenn, and state what you seem to be getting at, but unable to concisely explain: The beautiful woman represents the curse of white privilege. The ape symbolizes a person-of-color (lest we forget that African Americans are the only brown skinned people on earth), and has an aggressive attitude and desire for white, unattainable flesh (until the end where he attains it) that is meant to denigrate such people who are associated with such attitudes by the mainstream media.
I think Jenn thinks that she's some sort of exalted racial theorist, labeling this and that as racist as she goes through her daily routine. She's sticking up for the all the people that the ape represents... gorillas, chimpanzees, and other black-haired primates with tan complexions.
Jenn, I'm sorry but this video does not denigrate anything or anyone. Thanks for letting me know that I sound intelligent, I appreciate it. I think its a little silly though that, speaking from upon your high chair, you let us know exactly where we are in the stage of a theory of personal development, based on a few comments that disagree with your assumptions. I'll take that and raise you: Give me in one sentence, the thesis of the premise upon which you claim that this video is racist.
So... Still didn't do that reading, huh? Kyrakaos, love, lust, yin, yang, balance, good, evil, love do not add up to gorilla. Just a disguise? No. AGAIN- equating chocolate with sex makes people think of sex with people of color, and they put a guy in a monkey suit in the video. End of story. Move on with your life, or at least respond directly to what I am saying. You said, "I honestly don't see color"- I am trying to help you with that. Really, look into it. Don't be scared to grow. Meet me.
This song/video has many dynamics but race is not one of them. But I think that I understand where you were going with it. But trust me, you might have went a little too far. It's about Love/Lust. Yin yang/balance. Do you believe that Good and Evil are racist? Love is totally blind. So if this video is about Love, then it would have nothing to do with what you are talking about. The ape is merely a disguise. Chocolate and lust can be viewed as sinful. Euphoric feeling. Transcending into Love.
When I watched this, my initial thought was Love or Lust in the beginning stages. Which can masquerade. Hence the disguise. Which represents the primitive state of (human) being or most would say (that will always be a subject of discussion) ;). I could go on but the root is LOVE. Not HATE. And if Hate is what you see, that’s why I hurt. What were your first thoughts when you viewed this? And please explain in detail as I have.
I’m sorry if I offended anyone with my comments. At the same time, I’m sincerely hurt that anyone could take offense to them or this video. That means that we are not growing as one. There’s a separation. Do you understand where I’m coming from? You have yet to connect with me?
And if you really want to connect, I would be happy to discuss this stuff with you in person, then, perhaps you can see I am not attacking you. For real, lets meet up. I am going to be available around the beginning of December, but am busy with school until then. Patrick, you too, I know who I can find you through so if you want to meet up, just let me know.
My approach is simple. I identified a video as racist. I gave logical reasons for this interpretation, repeatedly. The lack of understanding you two express reflects a common attitude that can be explained by white privilege. I am suggesting you educate yourself in this area so that you may better understand the reason this video is offensive.
And yes, color and creation in every form is VERY beautiful! The magnificent creations of this world and beyond this world. I agree! The unique qualities, personalities, and behaviors of each individual are absolutely beautiful. That's what makes everyone different. Otherwise, it would be a bland/boring world.
You are categorizing/placing me into a group…racial or otherwise. And that’s not what you want to do, right? If you change your approach, you might understand where everyone is coming from and be able to relate to them. You will be more connected to people (no matter what ethnic background). Because, yes, it’s everywhere in every culture unfortunately. If you can connect, then you can eventually become one with everyone and THAT is the GOAL! Right?
Don't try to educate me when you know nothing about me...my upbringing, my personality, my experiences. That, to me, is what you are trying to prevent. Listen to your approach. Being on the attack and pushing your views on to people, that obviously do not apply in this instance, is a total turn off. If you want to educate people, you must 1st know where they are coming from and can relate to them on a certain level. Connect to that person to show them what you see. Maybe you will get somewhere.
So... I take it you didn't look up "Stages of White Ethnic Identity Development" I am being direct and patient, not angry, I am concerned for the two of you. And if you want to talk projection, please take your advice and look within YOURself. The reasons for this video being racist are obvious. The need for the two of you to defend it, not so much. So I am offering you intellectual, researched information so that you may learn. It is not a positive thing to be Colorblind. Color is beautiful.
And the fact that you are getting so upset speaks volumes. I'm not upset by your comments (although they are offensive) because I know you're projecting. It's all good. To each their own. I wish we could all get along, but there are people (like you) that just don't have that on their radar. Listen to yourself, Jenn. Are those things that you would say to someone to tell your side of a story in a calm, loving manner? What example are you when you advocate for such an awesome cause? Great Lead!
Jenn, your comments are offensive. You are STILL attacking. This video is not meant to attack anyone. So your posts here don't make sense. You are judging me when you should take a look deep within yourself. These feelings are merely an expression of who YOU are. Try mixing creativity (art) and analytical thinking...somethimes they don't always go together. Like I said, I understand where you are coming from but it doesn't apply here. Sorry.
Google "Stages of White Ethnic Identity Development" there is another chart for you two there. The two of you are in the first stage of your identity development. This is written by people who study race, development, racial issues, and racism (Like people who go to school for this and win awards and stuff), But I am acting on faith here. Make sure you look at the chart for white identity development, not the one for people of color (this obviously does not apply to you guys)
People of color have no choice but to see the world as racist... because it is. I haven't said this yet so here goes. YOUR POINT OF VIEW IS TYPICAL AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND. People rationalize and ignore racism every day. They hate admitting they are so privileged in this society that they don't have to see it. Hahahaha... funny monkey, hot chick, this your perception and it is not hard to understand. NOW, you two, try to see it from another point of view, an educated point of view.
And really Ky, I am not the one who is brainwashed. Television networks are also guilty of implicit racism. I know patrick is a college student, if you are too, the two of you should hold hands and skip down the hall with your chipper selves to the nearest social work or sociology professor and have them explain things to you. Perhaps someone with their PhD can get through to the two of you. You need EDUCATION on white privilege and implicit racism. I DARE YOU TO TRY AND LEARN.
Patrick, your article is irrelevant. Ky, this is not my personal association. This is a logical association and one many people are really pissed off about. I am speaking for many when I argue with you two, and I am happy to do it cause when you say these things to people, it is hurtful and frustrating. I MADE Y'ALL A F*#^ING CHART. I am happy for the two of you being so blind to racism that you don't see it in the video, BUT MANY PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THAT LUXURY.
Well said...it's association and how you perceive/view the world. And I, too, didn't associate race anywhere in this video because it's not in here. I don't see race or view the world in this way from every corner. So it's foreign to me. Your comments didn't make sense to me. If it was an attack, yeah I can see someone taking offense...but it's not. I guess I'm just confused by your comments. I would really like to get more views on this to see what other people think. Taught/learned response.
Its all just a matter of what YOU associate it with. Jenn seems to be some sort of critical racist who sees race in everything. Personally, race isn't something I think of much day to day... But I would be interested to hear your thoughts on implicit racism within our society. Is this video worse? Better? Contributes to racism? HOW IS THIS EVEN RACIST?! I STILL DONT GET IT!
However, as of yet, Jenn, you have yet to tell me why this video would make a person of any race be offended, angry, cry, or think badly of some other race. Thats all I want to know. Until I know this, your argument is baseless. All this video makes me think of is weird funny kinky planet of the apes gone to Austin when the genetic infection starts to hit.
Since I respect what you support, hopefully you can respect my views. You are, in your way, discriminating against how I view this. It goes against everything that you stand for. You're contradicting yourself here. That's how I view it. Now you are trying to push your views onto me. Is that fair? I respect you, please respect me. That's what it's all about. Respecting each other. Hopefully you understand that.
And I totally agree with you! I too believe that you need to raise awareness of racism as it does effect people in a negative way (it has it's traumatic effect) and a lot of people don't know that they do this. To make them more aware of what they are doing is a great thing to do and I'm happy that you do this. But HERE is not the place. Trust me. There are no secret racist underlining message anywhere in this video. Racism is something everyone must overcome on their own in own mind. Yes, aware
Think creatively and not literally analytical for a change. And see what you find, Jenn. Use your own mind for a change instead of youtube telling you what is really going on in the world...or CNN, Fox News or any other brainwashing network. We all have those primal instincts (unless you have never been in love and do not know love). But I think everyone has love and the capability to love (if they recognize it, see it and surrender to it.) It's there. That's primitive...at birth.
Jenn, I think it might be you stretching the symbolism of chocolate. Have you even read the title and listened to the lyrics of the song you are posting on? She is speaking of chocolate in the literal sense...mix that with LOVE. Or being in love. Try looking at it from that point of view.
Sex+Chocolate= symbol of sexuality for people of color (youtube search)
Monkey= derogatory term for people of color
Sex+Chocolate+Monkey= one racist music video
WE HAVE NOT MOVED INTO A POST RACIAL ERA. RACISM IS A PROBLEM.
IT IS GOOD TO INTERRUPT RACISM. IT IS POSITIVE TO RAISE AWARENESS. I don't think I can make this any more clear for you, but I will continue to try. Educate yourself on these issues so you can help, talking about racism helps, acknowledging racism helps. Learn and grow.
Kyrakaos, you are the one stretching the symbolism of chocolate. Sex and Chocolate, when paired together in music, are associated with people of color. I'll say it again: Do a Youtube search: "Sexy Chocolate" "Sexual Chocolate" YOU WILL NOT SEE PICTURES OF GORILLAS OR CANDY BARS. Maybe a chart would be useful. ill make one for you in the following post, cause you are the one who is pushing it by trying to connect chocolate, love, feelings, primitive= gorilla?Nope, doesn't add up. Check this out
BUT what you are talking about and what I'm talking about are two TOTALLY seperate things. Primitave (1st stages of love...where you give chocolate to your lover), that euphoric feeling of love as chocolate gives most women (all the ones that I know), euphoric love and euphoric chocolate...now that's a great combo. In those states, you see past everything...their wrong. It's primitave. And there is nothing that is racist about that.
I honestly don't see color and I'm native american, brittich, scotish, irish...a lot of different origins. Soon enough it won't matter here. One day...huih? ;) Hopefully VERY soon if it's not taking place right now. That's why we need to stop differentiating from humans. That was what I was upset about that someone could. For change, there must be everyone working together and treating each other right. And I shouldn't have got upset. I'm sorry and understand where you are coming from.
You know what, maybe I was upset and I'm sorry I didn't get where EXACTLY you were coming from. This was a reflection of even bringing up that there is a difference between race and ethics. I honestly thought they were the same thing. Race (HUMAN) and ethics (right & wrong). Thanks for sharing and thanks for the inlightenment. I guess I just don't differnciate from the two. We are all humans...that's about it.
Okay, again, you are ignoring the musical symbolism of sex and chocolate. And, sweetheart, I am not attacking you, but researching something requires more than looking it up in a dictionary. i will give you some examples of lyrics and some websites to look at when I have more time. Disproportionality is something being addressed by the Texas Legislature and is relative to the child welfare system. it is an example of data analysis proving that racism still exists and needs to be addressed.
What a stupid debate. Can't we just dress up in monkey suits and have fun? Sheesh. Go Erin!
ThrakkorzogPJM 5 days ago
I agree, Erin is awesome, so is the song. Its playful and fun.
patrickthemeaney 2 months ago
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To that old saying, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Or, maybe we should also debate whether Melville intended something sexual by a white sperm whale. All sorts of things such as these can be academically debated in academic settings. However, I am somewhat perplexed by the energy that some people have taken to debating racial issues - over a video. I know Erin decently well, I think, and I know there was no racial intent on the video.
arkangel2001 2 months ago
Because I do know Erin, I don't think the intent had anything to do with the debate below, but frankly because she might have not wanted to make the song tooo sultry (which the song naturally conveys) but was trying to lighten up the mood of the song and be playful. The song is amazing, and for those who would be too hard toward Erin, you might ask yourself if any of your past efforts were mis-interpreted and try to give her a break. Erin is incredibly sweet and only tries to be kind.
arkangel2001 2 months ago
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arkangel2001 2 months ago
My work is done here. In the words of Barney Frank, "Ignorance does not offend me."
patrickthemeaney 2 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 2 months ago
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Racist bitch.
Prssyfoot317 2 months ago
False premises and overgeneralizations aside, Jenn, I think you are deep down trying to do something positive. So go out there into the big world and take charge to make a change.
patrickthemeaney 2 months ago
Furthermore, do you think the intent of the people who called other people monkeys (in American history of Racism) did so with the intention of comparing them with tree-welling fruit eaters, or by labeling them as primitive, inferior animals? Their intention was to label a group as primitive, inferior human beings.
Now take a look at the ape (not monkey) in this film. Does he look very primitive to you? He doesn't seem primitive or inferior (imho)-- he seems like a cognizant great ape
patrickthemeaney 2 months ago
Its ok, Jenn, I forgive you. You gave it your best shot, you really did. Unfortunately, you just were not able to justify your claims. I respect and accept your resignation from the continuance of this discussion.
patrickthemeaney 2 months ago
Also, when someone resigns, do they generally win?
re·sign (r-zn)
v.tr.
1. To submit (oneself) passively;
2. To give up (a position, for example), especially by formal notification.
patrickthemeaney 2 months ago
Also, who is the average person? I thought it was only those who are somewhat or fully aware of racial issues that would make the connection between "chocolate and a black lover." Is that the average person? What is average? You seem to not be aware of your gross generalizations. Over generalization is a logical fallacy (I recall you bringing up the straw man argument so you might want to check your notes).
patrickthemeaney 2 months ago
Also, thanks for helping this video grow by about 1000 views. Thank you for all of your contributions in general.
patrickthemeaney 2 months ago
And... somehow I don't think you're done here. You've returned again and again and again... yet you've failed to rationalize several of your own claims. You gave up on them. I'm happy to continue questioning your logic, its something I do for fun.
patrickthemeaney 2 months ago
Jenn, I am happy to see you give up and find a better forum to promote racial awareness. But I am sad to see you give up, and fail to justify your arguments and claims. I wasn't trying to win anything, this isn't a contest. All I've lost is your presence, which, I can't consider that a bad thing.
A lover compared to chocolate? Chocolate is exchanged between lovers-- Who are you to speak for the entirety of our culture?
patrickthemeaney 2 months ago
... and I'm out. I will no longer be looking at this. Anyone who goes back and reads will see for themselves that you are responding in a foolish fashion. I am using this as an exercise in developing my capacity to let go of an argument without having the last word. As for the video, well.... truth comes out and people get exposed so I am not to worried about it. We will have a chat at some point Patrick, so until then, enjoy. You lose.
jennibb1981 2 months ago
When you ask the average person what they think of when you describe a song where a lover is compared to chocolate, most people will say that they think it is about a black lover. Try this, ask around. The lover is depicted by a monkey. That's it. That is all there is to it. It is easy to understand. I do not claim to be the person you are saying I am not, and again, this is about the video not me. I am not claiming to change history here, like I said, I am simply speaking for those offended.
jennibb1981 2 months ago
When do monkeys represent black people in your world, Jenn, and when do they not?
In forms of art associated with the word chocolate? Why?
Because a black guy wrote a song about chocolate in the 1970s and thereby associated forever the two concepts of dark brown people and chocolate?
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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Should everyone take a white guy in a gorilla outfit in a song called chocolate as a racist, because you think its racist, Jenn?
Use your imagination here Jenn, think of any ape species in the world. Place it into a song called sexual healing featuring a cameo Vanilla Ice. Is that racist? Or is it only racist if the ape is an ape costume, rather than an actual ape?
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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I think to do so completely misses the point of art and creativity.
Do you think white men/women wearing gorilla suits/masks during Halloween are racists?
What if they were singing some song involving chocolate and sex?
I'm sorry, but personally, I don't think I am uninformed on racism and the history of racism & slavery in America, for not drawing a myopic conclusion such as yours, which you are apparently unwilling or incapable of justifying.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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But Jenn, hear me out on this one: I don't go around calling every film featuring a human actor in a gorilla costume a racist, whether or not it features a beautiful white woman nor if it's called chocolate. Just because you draw those symbols from your love of the history of racism in America, and R&B song involving the word "chocolate", doesn't mean everyone should misconstrue the intent of this film into thinking it is a derogatory form of hate meant to denigrate black people.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Oh, by the way, Erin Ivey was born white. I don't think that's something we can edit out so it doesn't offend people.
And, check this out: Chocolate and gorillas are both brown.
It is unfortunate that there was racism in this country and some white people called some black people monkeys. Let me remind you, Black people are not monkeys. But we are all great apes.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
You're labeling this with a term that you want to bring awareness to an issue. You've said that this is a great way to bring attention to the issue. Clearly you're not very experienced in the realm of utilizing public communication to bring visibility to specific issues-- e.g. How many people read the newspaper in Central Texas? How many actions to bring awareness to issues are featured in newspapers daily? (let me remind you, social media and public forums are forms of public communication)
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Oh by the way you mentioned that you're not required to justify your claims to me. In that case, you're not required to justify them to anyone. In which case, what is the point of making claims of such unrespectable and/or unknown value-- especially you're unwilling to even justify them in such a open, free, public forum as this? If you're not going to justify your claims, why make them? They are value-less in such cases of unjustification. Unpack them, you sociologist. Justify yourself.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Jenn... I honestly don't understand what you are trying to prove. Personally, I like exercises in debate and picking apart logic, so I find this amusing.
You claim to be an outspoken sociologist student who is an advocate for racism awareness. I honestly don't find you to be a strong advocate given that you don't have enough passion and motivation to organize political action. Instead you sit down in a comfy chair and write 500 word comments on one of millions of videos on youtube.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
You have yet to justify your claim that this music video would still be racist if the woman was Hispanic.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Or could it? Are we just calling black people monkeys here? Or is there no other skin tone of gorillas? Personally I have never seen an albino gorilla, howler monkey, spider monkey, etc. For this particular video, the mask available was chocolate complexion, and it was chosen. Why? The name of the song is chocolate. The gloves were spray painted from a reddish-brown color to a darker brown to match the mask. Do you see the logic here? Is that the logic of hateful racist art?
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
I am not defensive, angry, or lack understanding. I am defensive, angry, and lack understanding, to you. To me, you have yet to explain what this symbolism is, and how it compares to racism as it is defined terminologically-- the denigration of certain groups of people-- such as violence or hate speech. You're claiming that in this video, a great ape of chocolate complexion represents a black person, and that somehow it is insulting. Well, it couldn't be insulting without white privilege.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
You misunderstood me, I brought up white privilege to explain you're defensiveness, anger, and lack of understanding. I have explained many times why people, including myself, think, "that's racist" when they see the video. It is because of accepted symbolism. It is quite basic, most people get it regardless of their field of study. I think you're right though, since you have made this such a deeply personal attack it is better resolved in person. Your insults are not helping your argument.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Jenn, this video does not implicitly denigrate anyone of any ethnicity. Therefore, it is by definition not racist. You however, are by definition, incapable of forming a coherent argument. Please refrain from polluting this forum with ignorance in the future. If you truly gave a damn about changing society to respect racial differences, you would organize a movement. Clearly you're a lazy poser who prefers to attack local artists and musicians with false accusations.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Now, go ahead and go back down and answer the 4 questions that I posed to you. If you're unable to do so, clearly you are unable to defend your claim and view point. That makes you a failure of a sociologist and a failure of a racial philosopher. I knew this from the get go-- no one intellectual shouts "Thats Racist!" without backing it up and defending their claim, because simply put, it is a stupid and ignorant thing to do. Thus I associated you with these qualities immediately.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Sorry Jenn, you obviously do feel the need to defend yourself to me, as this is what you have been doing for days on end. Furthermore, You claimed that even if the woman was hispanic, the video would be racist. You claimed this, but when I asked you to clarify, just how it is racist if the premise is white privilege... well, looks like you gave up. Which is what I expected, because clearly you don't know what you're talking about. And thats fine, you have clearly demonstrated such to be true
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Jenn, you did not identify this video as anything. You stated your myopic and unrationalized opinion without even thinking, later you went back to figure out what you meant and defend your assertion. You clearly don't understand racism. If you did, you rather than saying "THATS RACIST!" You would have said, "Interesting, this video has some nuances that could, depending on the viewer, have implications that could be construed as racially insensitive." It is not racist though, by definition.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Patrick, I identified a video as racist. Perhaps it was not intentional, but if it is not, it is implicitly racist. You asked why it was racist, so I explained it to you. You refuse to understand, so I offered an intellectual explanation for your lack of understanding. You don't want to hear it. I am tired of you attacking me. I do things other than critic this video, more structural things, but I don't feel the need to defend myself to you. You are trying to make this about me, and it's not.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
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Slavery has been institutionalized since at least 3,500 BCE in the codex of Hammurabi btw. Do videos featuring breakdancing Iraqis therefore count as racism? (This is what is known as an "analogy") Do you see the spectrum of history here? Also, take a moment to read about ethical relativity. Let me sum it up for you: "Your ethics are a product of your society" -- Aristotle Now there is an interesting discussion: the interplay of ethical relativity in racism and slavery.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Seriously Jenn, the more time you spend commenting on youtube, the less you're actually making the changes that you claim to care so dearly about. Hypocrite much? Yeah, so get out there and start making some changes. Hypocritical posers are the silliest....
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
I'm ashamed of you Jenn... deeply ashamed. What a poser. "Doy... commenting on youtube makes me an activist!" durrrr... doh!
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Next MLK Jr. day, Jenn, if you don't organize a march of at least 50 people, I'd say you're a poser: you want to be seen as an advocate for positive race-relations and an erudite sociologist philosopher on the topic of race, yet this is the extent of your activism? Wow.. get out of here, get off youtube, and start visualizing your movement, identifying your allies and contacting them, writing some faux press releases for your event so you can get your vision down.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Jenn, you think writing comments on a music video that will soon be drowned out by other comments is activism? WOW! You have a lot to learn (and that is me being polite).
Check out wellstone . org for some tips and tools on organizing grassroots coalitions. Have you heard of the concept of visibility? Do you think your activism is most visible here? Or are there perhaps other, more impactful outlets in which you could call for changes and proactive, positive action?
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
I do love this video though. Thanks guys! Lets get Erin Ivey on the radio! We need to get some more views!!
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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I'm really just disgusted... like.. god damn. This woman is serious. I don't know if I should laugh or try not to get angry that I have to share my air and land with people like you... who call themselves educated. Wow... I'm actually offended. You should be ashamed for comparing this film with prejudice, hateful and hurtful acts of racism.
Maybe you need to look at some history books, you forgot the history of racism in this country?
I'm going to puke in my own mouth if i keep this up...
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
I'm sorry Jenn, I am just astonished and disgusted that you would compare this film to true acts of racism... It tells me how inconsiderate you are and how little you self-analyze your own thoughts before shouting your outbursts of racism at creative individuals.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
I think Jenn, that you hold the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability. Because you seem to believe that in this video, a form of expressive art open for interpretation for all, Erin Ivey is privileged because of her race. How about her beauty? Her voice? Her musical abilities? And the ape.. that seems like a pretty privileged ape to me: he hooks up with a human in the end. Sorry Jenn, I think you're a very silly person who doesn't practice what they preach.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
By the way, by calling this video racist, you're implying that you know what the beliefs of the producers are. How incredibly prejudice are you to assume that you know what the producers believe and intend with this film? Wow... I'm so sad that this is the country I live in, with this kind of electorate...
Racism:
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Personally, Jenn, you are discriminatory and racist in my opinion. Note: in my opinion. The perception of racism is based on subjective factors that objectively may or may not be viewed as racism. For example, killing innocent people because of their skin color? Yeah, i'd say we could all agree that is racist.
A white woman appearing in a film with an ape-actor? Well.. then Planet of the Apes is certified racist. Personally, I disagree: ones perception determines what is represented.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Question 4: Do we need to consult with sociologists before we can shoot a music video? If so, which sociologists and why? Are sociologists capable of having divergent opinions?
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Please answer my questions if you are truly an advocate for reasonable objective debate on the topic of racism within open forums.
1. Hispanics ok? (if not, why not?) 2. Any apes ok? (if not, why not?) 3. A new one: If Erin Ivey was Norwegian and the video was produced in Nigeria would it be ok?
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Jenn, I don't think you understand the dichotomy at play: One can intend racism, and one can perceive it. Just because one perceives it, doesn't mean everyone does. And just because one perceives it, doesn't mean it was intended.
To call this racism is to make light of lynching, to make light of institutionally denigrating ethnicities such as blacks and hispanics.
Are you saying this producing this video denigrates black people? Does it disparage, insult, castigate, ostracize them?
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
All you're doing is preaching. Well, start practicing. All you're doing is displaying how uncreative and inconsiderate you are as a person, by criticizing a video for something it has nothing to do with.
By the way, please answer my question: If your premise is white privilege, how is this video racist if the woman was Hispanic?
I have another brain buster: Could we use apes at all, or are we prohibited, for fear of eliciting calls of "racism" among sociologists such as yourself?
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Jenn, yes, you are "doing something". Banging your head on a wall in an empty room is also doing something. But what have you produced? What have you changed? I'm sorry, but I don't see you drawing nonexistent connections as a productive use of your time as a sociologist. You should at least write a paper on this video and publish it. Otherwise you're BSing us all by claiming to be a stalwart advocate of race-awareness in every topic encountered in life. Practice what you preach.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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it just look right with that title, didn't you think at all!!!
mrthraz 3 months ago
Patrick, impacting all levels of society include open forums on music videos. Speaking out against this video is something I am doing as an advocate for people in the local austin music scene who are deeply offended,me included. Interrupting and acknowledging racism in music videos IS doing something. Addressing racism includes things in addition to passing legislation and lobbying. It is also important to make people think and show people hurt by racism that they are understood and represented
jennibb1981 3 months ago
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"Primates don't have races because it is a human social construction." Race is a human construct (so is chocolate, and all other words and concepts tinkering around in that big ol brain of yers) that is applied to humans (great apes)-- and a very problematic one at that from a social & scientific perspective-- what is your point?
"And you're wrong, even if it was not a white woman in the video it would still be offensive." We have a claim, now what is the premise, if its not white privilege?
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
"Racism is not just about one's own experience, view of the world, or personal interaction with others. It is a phenomenon that effects all levels of society. The institutionalized racism in this country has implicit effects."
Yes, racism was institutionalized with slavery and segregation and its impact and vestiges still remain. Please point them out-- the drug law, prison system, environmental regulations, city planning, point them out-- And then do something about it. Organize a lobby day.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Be proactive, if this is your issue, start making some changes. Find the passionate people out there. We can hope, but I don't think your State or Federal legislators or their offices are going to see the comments of this film, so why not bring these issues to their attention, if you're so passionate? Maybe a little practicing what you're preaching? Get out there and take action. I helped pass legislation in the Texas 81st legislature with a student group while in college.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Kyrakaos, you still don't get it. Racism is not just about one's own experience, view of the world, or personal interaction with others. It is a phenomenon that effects all levels of society. The institutionalized racism in this country has implicit effects. This video is offensive, not on an individual level. It is not about mannerisms, behviors, or thought process. It is about our society thinking we are in a post-racial era where this kind of stuff is overlooked when it shouldn't be.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
We all wear masks. I choose to look past them to what really matters...the heart. I dare you to try this. Try looking not at what they have, or who they know, or how they look, or sex, or class, or race, or religious beliefs...but their true self. What you feel when you're around someone. I do study people. I love watching mannerisms and behaviors. Why people do things a certain way. It's fascinating to me. To actually see their thought process. Reading people in a positive way.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
I have yet to attack you. And, yes, I admit that I have a lot to learn. You never stop learning. When that happens, you stop living. But you are falsely accusing me and I have a right to defend myself. It's not this video that I'm defending...it's my view. Everyone has their own. I'm not angry. I understand that you view the world differently than I do maybe because of your experiences and what you were taught. And that's OK. But I just wish that you would look at it differently. That's all.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
It's funny too, cause I was told by some folks you would respond exactly how you did to the information I offered you. I was told by some peers that people unaware of their privilege will make fun of the information, attack me personally by suggesting I think I am superior, and get angry. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but they will be happy to read that every aspect of their theory was correct.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
It's a choice what you find and see. What are you looking for, Jenn? Are you happy? Content with yourself? Where are you on YOUR journey? That's the question you have to ask yourself rather than asking me. Everyone is traveling their own path and have obstacles to overcome on their own. We are here to help each other out along the way. We live in the same world. But you choose where you want your mind to take you. To love and happiness? Cheers!
kyrakaos 3 months ago
I am sorry you don't understand, really, it's sad. You and kyra both took part in the making of the video, which explains the defensiveness. You are obviously not aware of racial issues, cause even people who do not study people understand why this video is percieved as racist. You feel a need to defend it because you are part of it. I, on the other hand, only stand to be attacked, misrepresented, and perhaps piss of some close acquaintences. Stop talking so much crap. I'm right.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
Jenn, If you see hate, you can see love and vice versa. It's your choice what you see in this video and in day-to-day life. If you choose to see love, happiness will follow. Because like love, happiness is a state of mind which has physical effects on the body. It links mind, body & spirit/soul/energy...what you will. But you must first choose to look at it from another/different/new perspective. Which you totally discarded my view. Inside all of us there is chaos; but there is also love/beauty
kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
Patrick, you're right. I do study social sciences and am seeking a graduate degree in social work, and I did run this by some professors, who also agreed that this was really offensive. A lot of people are offended by this video. I am happy to speak for them and will continue to do so. Primates don't have races because it is a human social construction. And you're wrong, even if it was not a white woman in the video it would still be offensive.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
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I'd say Orangutan (cuz he has that off balance, top heavy strut), Howler (cuz he clearly knows how to smoothtalk with the bouncer), and Gorilla (cuz he seems like a rebel, plus he's built) personally... All of those species are also relatively chocolately color, so it only makes sense.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
I want this video to get more views and comments! I am wondering if people think that the ape is a quarter asian, a quarter native american, and half black, because thats how he seems to me, with the kung fu kicks, the mystical understanding of women, and his rough but attractive smoothness. He's super-great-ape! With DNA from apes from around the world, likely due to the genetic engineering that comes along with being on the Planet of the Apes here on the verge of the future.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Woohoo! Go Erin Ivey! I love this video! Great producer, very creative on what seems like a limited budget. Rock on RoadWings Entertainment!
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Lose your charts and theories for a moment and watch this video. You can't, can you? Its so ingrained in your way of thinking, no wonder you interrupt other peoples' moments to compulsively inject your own associations and learned theories of racial inequities into whatever subject or discussion that may hold the even the smallest possibility of being misconstrued and interpreted as promoting racism. You have that right though. And I'm here to tell you that you're silly and a downer :)
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Jenn, stop kidding yourself. People including myself fall within various aspects of all of the categories of your chart. We're not set in one particular stage that progresses linearly. Individuals are all over the map based on their personal experiences. Thanks for being such a hypocritical silly ignorance-monster to summarize for me, my life experiences and how they dictate whether or not I am racially ignorant and misinformed (in your view).
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Jenn is racially autonomous. She has reached self actualization. She is of those few who fully understand racial issues and therefore is qualified to lecture the masses on the theories of racial bias and ethnic identity development. She claims that we probably do not show "Appreciation and respect for the identity struggles of people of those in the minority" as she does, given that she is of the exalted few to have reached the 7th level of racial-understandingness nirvana
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Jenn fancies herself a social scientist and its very amusing to me. Its ok Jenn, I do appreciate you bringing to light another perspective, even though it isn't truly your own and yet you seek to represent it. Yes, I am a college graduate, thank you. Perhaps you could make that trip to discuss it with the PhDs and let us know how it goes. I'm not the one claiming this video is racist, you are. So please go ahead and speak with an expert and determine if you're correct in their view.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
I'm happy to see that you consider yourself informed on the topic of race, Jenn, but the rest of us are less informed on the theories of sociologists. When you're interested in something it often occupies your mindspace and influences your perspective, so keep that in mind. Also, thanks for generalizing about how people of color (who is that by the way? please be specific) see the world, I'm sure all how many billion of them appreciate your conjecture.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
I imagine that if the woman was Hispanic, this video would be just fine. But since she's white, and Jenn is a scholar on the topic of race, she is compelled by (personal virtue and self righteousness) to inform us that this video is absolutely not okay.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Let me help you out here Jenn, and state what you seem to be getting at, but unable to concisely explain: The beautiful woman represents the curse of white privilege. The ape symbolizes a person-of-color (lest we forget that African Americans are the only brown skinned people on earth), and has an aggressive attitude and desire for white, unattainable flesh (until the end where he attains it) that is meant to denigrate such people who are associated with such attitudes by the mainstream media.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
I think Jenn thinks that she's some sort of exalted racial theorist, labeling this and that as racist as she goes through her daily routine. She's sticking up for the all the people that the ape represents... gorillas, chimpanzees, and other black-haired primates with tan complexions.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Jenn, I'm sorry but this video does not denigrate anything or anyone. Thanks for letting me know that I sound intelligent, I appreciate it. I think its a little silly though that, speaking from upon your high chair, you let us know exactly where we are in the stage of a theory of personal development, based on a few comments that disagree with your assumptions. I'll take that and raise you: Give me in one sentence, the thesis of the premise upon which you claim that this video is racist.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
So... Still didn't do that reading, huh? Kyrakaos, love, lust, yin, yang, balance, good, evil, love do not add up to gorilla. Just a disguise? No. AGAIN- equating chocolate with sex makes people think of sex with people of color, and they put a guy in a monkey suit in the video. End of story. Move on with your life, or at least respond directly to what I am saying. You said, "I honestly don't see color"- I am trying to help you with that. Really, look into it. Don't be scared to grow. Meet me.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
This song/video has many dynamics but race is not one of them. But I think that I understand where you were going with it. But trust me, you might have went a little too far. It's about Love/Lust. Yin yang/balance. Do you believe that Good and Evil are racist? Love is totally blind. So if this video is about Love, then it would have nothing to do with what you are talking about. The ape is merely a disguise. Chocolate and lust can be viewed as sinful. Euphoric feeling. Transcending into Love.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
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When I watched this, my initial thought was Love or Lust in the beginning stages. Which can masquerade. Hence the disguise. Which represents the primitive state of (human) being or most would say (that will always be a subject of discussion) ;). I could go on but the root is LOVE. Not HATE. And if Hate is what you see, that’s why I hurt. What were your first thoughts when you viewed this? And please explain in detail as I have.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
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I’m sorry if I offended anyone with my comments. At the same time, I’m sincerely hurt that anyone could take offense to them or this video. That means that we are not growing as one. There’s a separation. Do you understand where I’m coming from? You have yet to connect with me?
kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
And if you really want to connect, I would be happy to discuss this stuff with you in person, then, perhaps you can see I am not attacking you. For real, lets meet up. I am going to be available around the beginning of December, but am busy with school until then. Patrick, you too, I know who I can find you through so if you want to meet up, just let me know.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
My approach is simple. I identified a video as racist. I gave logical reasons for this interpretation, repeatedly. The lack of understanding you two express reflects a common attitude that can be explained by white privilege. I am suggesting you educate yourself in this area so that you may better understand the reason this video is offensive.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
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And yes, color and creation in every form is VERY beautiful! The magnificent creations of this world and beyond this world. I agree! The unique qualities, personalities, and behaviors of each individual are absolutely beautiful. That's what makes everyone different. Otherwise, it would be a bland/boring world.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
You are categorizing/placing me into a group…racial or otherwise. And that’s not what you want to do, right? If you change your approach, you might understand where everyone is coming from and be able to relate to them. You will be more connected to people (no matter what ethnic background). Because, yes, it’s everywhere in every culture unfortunately. If you can connect, then you can eventually become one with everyone and THAT is the GOAL! Right?
kyrakaos 3 months ago
Don't try to educate me when you know nothing about me...my upbringing, my personality, my experiences. That, to me, is what you are trying to prevent. Listen to your approach. Being on the attack and pushing your views on to people, that obviously do not apply in this instance, is a total turn off. If you want to educate people, you must 1st know where they are coming from and can relate to them on a certain level. Connect to that person to show them what you see. Maybe you will get somewhere.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
So... I take it you didn't look up "Stages of White Ethnic Identity Development" I am being direct and patient, not angry, I am concerned for the two of you. And if you want to talk projection, please take your advice and look within YOURself. The reasons for this video being racist are obvious. The need for the two of you to defend it, not so much. So I am offering you intellectual, researched information so that you may learn. It is not a positive thing to be Colorblind. Color is beautiful.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
And the fact that you are getting so upset speaks volumes. I'm not upset by your comments (although they are offensive) because I know you're projecting. It's all good. To each their own. I wish we could all get along, but there are people (like you) that just don't have that on their radar. Listen to yourself, Jenn. Are those things that you would say to someone to tell your side of a story in a calm, loving manner? What example are you when you advocate for such an awesome cause? Great Lead!
kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
Jenn, your comments are offensive. You are STILL attacking. This video is not meant to attack anyone. So your posts here don't make sense. You are judging me when you should take a look deep within yourself. These feelings are merely an expression of who YOU are. Try mixing creativity (art) and analytical thinking...somethimes they don't always go together. Like I said, I understand where you are coming from but it doesn't apply here. Sorry.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
Google "Stages of White Ethnic Identity Development" there is another chart for you two there. The two of you are in the first stage of your identity development. This is written by people who study race, development, racial issues, and racism (Like people who go to school for this and win awards and stuff), But I am acting on faith here. Make sure you look at the chart for white identity development, not the one for people of color (this obviously does not apply to you guys)
jennibb1981 3 months ago
People of color have no choice but to see the world as racist... because it is. I haven't said this yet so here goes. YOUR POINT OF VIEW IS TYPICAL AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND. People rationalize and ignore racism every day. They hate admitting they are so privileged in this society that they don't have to see it. Hahahaha... funny monkey, hot chick, this your perception and it is not hard to understand. NOW, you two, try to see it from another point of view, an educated point of view.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
And really Ky, I am not the one who is brainwashed. Television networks are also guilty of implicit racism. I know patrick is a college student, if you are too, the two of you should hold hands and skip down the hall with your chipper selves to the nearest social work or sociology professor and have them explain things to you. Perhaps someone with their PhD can get through to the two of you. You need EDUCATION on white privilege and implicit racism. I DARE YOU TO TRY AND LEARN.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
Patrick, your article is irrelevant. Ky, this is not my personal association. This is a logical association and one many people are really pissed off about. I am speaking for many when I argue with you two, and I am happy to do it cause when you say these things to people, it is hurtful and frustrating. I MADE Y'ALL A F*#^ING CHART. I am happy for the two of you being so blind to racism that you don't see it in the video, BUT MANY PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THAT LUXURY.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
Well said...it's association and how you perceive/view the world. And I, too, didn't associate race anywhere in this video because it's not in here. I don't see race or view the world in this way from every corner. So it's foreign to me. Your comments didn't make sense to me. If it was an attack, yeah I can see someone taking offense...but it's not. I guess I'm just confused by your comments. I would really like to get more views on this to see what other people think. Taught/learned response.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
Its all just a matter of what YOU associate it with. Jenn seems to be some sort of critical racist who sees race in everything. Personally, race isn't something I think of much day to day... But I would be interested to hear your thoughts on implicit racism within our society. Is this video worse? Better? Contributes to racism? HOW IS THIS EVEN RACIST?! I STILL DONT GET IT!
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
However, as of yet, Jenn, you have yet to tell me why this video would make a person of any race be offended, angry, cry, or think badly of some other race. Thats all I want to know. Until I know this, your argument is baseless. All this video makes me think of is weird funny kinky planet of the apes gone to Austin when the genetic infection starts to hit.
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Jenn, google "Singer Mates with Wild Ape in Controversial Video". I can't post the link here... That is a short article about the film >:P
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
Jenn, this is what a symbol is. Anything in this video could be considered by anyone as a symbol for whatever they choose to interpret it for.
sym·bol (smbl)
n.
1. Something that represents something else by association, resemblance, or convention, ...
2. A printed or written sign used to represent an operation, element, quantity, quality, or relation, as in mathematics or music
The jacket, the boots, the rhythm, the colors of anything, the magazine, the street, etc. can symbolize anyhting
patrickthemeaney 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
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Since I respect what you support, hopefully you can respect my views. You are, in your way, discriminating against how I view this. It goes against everything that you stand for. You're contradicting yourself here. That's how I view it. Now you are trying to push your views onto me. Is that fair? I respect you, please respect me. That's what it's all about. Respecting each other. Hopefully you understand that.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
And I totally agree with you! I too believe that you need to raise awareness of racism as it does effect people in a negative way (it has it's traumatic effect) and a lot of people don't know that they do this. To make them more aware of what they are doing is a great thing to do and I'm happy that you do this. But HERE is not the place. Trust me. There are no secret racist underlining message anywhere in this video. Racism is something everyone must overcome on their own in own mind. Yes, aware
kyrakaos 3 months ago
Think creatively and not literally analytical for a change. And see what you find, Jenn. Use your own mind for a change instead of youtube telling you what is really going on in the world...or CNN, Fox News or any other brainwashing network. We all have those primal instincts (unless you have never been in love and do not know love). But I think everyone has love and the capability to love (if they recognize it, see it and surrender to it.) It's there. That's primitive...at birth.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
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kyrakaos 3 months ago
Jenn, I think it might be you stretching the symbolism of chocolate. Have you even read the title and listened to the lyrics of the song you are posting on? She is speaking of chocolate in the literal sense...mix that with LOVE. Or being in love. Try looking at it from that point of view.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
Sex+Chocolate= symbol of sexuality for people of color (youtube search)
Monkey= derogatory term for people of color
Sex+Chocolate+Monkey= one racist music video
WE HAVE NOT MOVED INTO A POST RACIAL ERA. RACISM IS A PROBLEM.
IT IS GOOD TO INTERRUPT RACISM. IT IS POSITIVE TO RAISE AWARENESS. I don't think I can make this any more clear for you, but I will continue to try. Educate yourself on these issues so you can help, talking about racism helps, acknowledging racism helps. Learn and grow.
jennibb1981 3 months ago
Kyrakaos, you are the one stretching the symbolism of chocolate. Sex and Chocolate, when paired together in music, are associated with people of color. I'll say it again: Do a Youtube search: "Sexy Chocolate" "Sexual Chocolate" YOU WILL NOT SEE PICTURES OF GORILLAS OR CANDY BARS. Maybe a chart would be useful. ill make one for you in the following post, cause you are the one who is pushing it by trying to connect chocolate, love, feelings, primitive= gorilla?Nope, doesn't add up. Check this out
jennibb1981 3 months ago
enlightenment rather. I knew it looked incorrect but no spell check ;)
kyrakaos 3 months ago
Maybe there are just some people that are just not ready to view this at this point in time.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
BUT what you are talking about and what I'm talking about are two TOTALLY seperate things. Primitave (1st stages of love...where you give chocolate to your lover), that euphoric feeling of love as chocolate gives most women (all the ones that I know), euphoric love and euphoric chocolate...now that's a great combo. In those states, you see past everything...their wrong. It's primitave. And there is nothing that is racist about that.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
I honestly don't see color and I'm native american, brittich, scotish, irish...a lot of different origins. Soon enough it won't matter here. One day...huih? ;) Hopefully VERY soon if it's not taking place right now. That's why we need to stop differentiating from humans. That was what I was upset about that someone could. For change, there must be everyone working together and treating each other right. And I shouldn't have got upset. I'm sorry and understand where you are coming from.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
You know what, maybe I was upset and I'm sorry I didn't get where EXACTLY you were coming from. This was a reflection of even bringing up that there is a difference between race and ethics. I honestly thought they were the same thing. Race (HUMAN) and ethics (right & wrong). Thanks for sharing and thanks for the inlightenment. I guess I just don't differnciate from the two. We are all humans...that's about it.
kyrakaos 3 months ago
Okay, again, you are ignoring the musical symbolism of sex and chocolate. And, sweetheart, I am not attacking you, but researching something requires more than looking it up in a dictionary. i will give you some examples of lyrics and some websites to look at when I have more time. Disproportionality is something being addressed by the Texas Legislature and is relative to the child welfare system. it is an example of data analysis proving that racism still exists and needs to be addressed.
jennibb1981 3 months ago