@fairldsorg P98, Stephens and Catherwoods book from GoogleBooks: "In our own country, the opening of forests and the discovery of tumuli or mounds and fortifications, extending in ranges from the lakes through the valleys of the Ohio and Mississippi, ... and the ruins of walls and a great city in Arkansas and Wisconsin Territory, had suggested ...ideas in regard to the first peopling of this country, and the strong belief [of] nations had occupied it and had passed away.." (edited for brevity)
@Kokopnyama However, that small paragraph isn't even mentioned in the Times and Seasons, but Central America, Guatemala, and numerous other Central American locations are, which were the theme for the volumes written by Catherwood and Stephens.
@fairldsorg It's quoted in the Times & Seasons from Stephens book Vol 2, p 172: "the Tollecas .. descended from the house of Israel, who were released by Moses from the tyranny of Pharaoh, and after crossing the Red Sea, fell into Idolatry. To avoid the reproofs of Moses ....they separated from him and his brethren...passed from one continent to the other, to ...a part of the kingdom of Mexico, where they founded the celebrated city of Tula.” But you don't believe they came from Moses but Lehi.
@fairldsorg If the Maya were not the Nephites, which is the consensus among LDS Scholars, then the Stephens and Catherwood book (about the Maya) was not about the Nephites, which makes Joseph Smith a liar about Stephens' book. (But Stephens does mention, in a chapter, about North American mounds/ruins. Check GoogleBooks.) But to cover themselves, the Mesoamerica theory proponents have changed the theory, now claiming the Nephites lived among the Maya. This is waffling when the facts don't fit.
@fairldsorg 1 Ne12:20 states after destroying the Nephites, the Lamanties went forth in multitudes upon the face of the land. They could have then intermarried with the Maya who were on the land before Lehi, making the current Maya mixed descendants of Lehi. Jacob 5 talks of 3-4 branches of the House of Israel being led to the nether parts of the Earth, the branch of Lehi being the last. And F.A.R.M.S. has declared the Nephites were not the Maya.
I don't believe Joseph really said all these things. And in that "luminous and comprehensive" quote, Joseph made NO connection to The Book of Mormon throughout the rest of the letter to brother Bernheisle or however you spell his name. And the quote after that one from the Times and Seasons about the narrow neck of land wasn't Joseph's writing or approved by him directly because the pages don't have his signature on the back.
The Mesoamerican theory is a fabrication of men and far from doctrine
@biggdannyd Actually, he did make the connection. He said that it "corresponds with and supports The Book of Mormon", and of all the histories it is the most correct. How would he know it was correct if it had nothing to do with The Book of Mormon?
And yes, the T/S articles are signed as "Editor". Since he was the Editor at the time and said that "I alone stand for" the contents of it, we are safe to say it was him. But, recently word print studies have been done which also show him to be the
@fairldsorg 1. Where is the connection? show me. 2. He was NOT the editor at the time, the twelve were and the pages don't have his signature.
3. Mesoamerica is not the land of promise according to the Book of Mormon, D&C, and the Pearl of Great Price. Joseph knew this and logically, him stating it's somewhere else doesn't make sense and I therefore think such documentation would be a fabrication.
@biggdannyd Actually, Joseph Smith took over the editorship from the 12 and stated such in the Times and Seasons in the March 15th 1842 edition and resigns the position to John Taylor in the November 15th 1842. It is well documented. Those who advocate other theories don't volunteer that information.
I am not fixated on Mesoamerica but believe the strongest evidence for The BOM can be found there. I don't care where it took place and if evidence comes about that it places it elsewhere, then I
@fairldsorg will change my opinion and advocate that theory. But thus far, that is where I think it took place in Mesoamerica. I don't care where others believe it took place but only have a problem when people use misinformation in order to advocate a theory.
@biggdannyd Does it really matter where I got my theory? If you must know, it has been evolving for many years and did include at one time the area of the Great Lakes. Until evidence brought me elsewhere.
@biggdannyd According to modern Prophets and Apostles, the Promised land is not confined to boundaries but encompasses all of North and South America
“the land of North and South America is a very much favored portion of our Father’s footstool, and he has declared with his own mouth that it is a land of promise—a chosen land—above all other lands.” George F. Richards, in Conference Report, October 1922, 80.
@fairldsorg Have church leaders ever said anything wrong or incorrect?
I do understand that neither Canada, Mesoamerica, nor South America have kings. But I also understand no one thinking the frase "land of liberty" is drawn anywhere but to the United States.
I also understand that the American "nation" is not the "nation" of any of these western hemisphere lands other than the United States. When one says "I'm an American" they live in the United States or at least that's their homeland.
@biggdannyd Of course we don't believe our leaders are infallible. But this would include any statement by any leader on BOM geography, including the ones that Great Lakes theorist use.
While land of liberty is generally thought of as America, Prophets and Apostles have claimed it to be all of North and South America including Ezra Taft Benson, J. Reuben Clark jr, and others. Just like the terms "Zion" "Choice land" "land of liberty" and "nation." Every term which Great Lakes theorist
@biggdannyd Use to promote their theory is used to describe all of North and South America. "Promised land" should be added to that list as well. So to claim that these terms are limited to what a theory states where the BOM took place is only accepting the facts that are convenient.
@fairldsorg The reason it’s called the PROMISE LAND is because there are PROMISES GIVEN about THIS LAND. Wherever this “nation” is, it has to fulfill the revelations given in the Book of Mormon prophesying about “this land”.
@biggdannyd It is also interesting that there are several inspired Temple dedicatory prayers given in Central America which say that the people in that are are descendants of Lehi. I believe that is telling.
@biggdannyd author of these and other articles which place the BOM in Mesoamerica.
I also couldn't agree with you more about ANY geography theory being doctrine. The Church has officially stated that many times. Anyone who claims their theory is doctrine is on shaky ground.
@omiolo It sure can. The first book is called " Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan" and volume II is called "Incidents of travel in Yucatan". They are currently on google books. I'll send you a link.
@fairldsorg P98, Stephens and Catherwoods book from GoogleBooks: "In our own country, the opening of forests and the discovery of tumuli or mounds and fortifications, extending in ranges from the lakes through the valleys of the Ohio and Mississippi, ... and the ruins of walls and a great city in Arkansas and Wisconsin Territory, had suggested ...ideas in regard to the first peopling of this country, and the strong belief [of] nations had occupied it and had passed away.." (edited for brevity)
Kokopnyama 6 months ago
@Kokopnyama However, that small paragraph isn't even mentioned in the Times and Seasons, but Central America, Guatemala, and numerous other Central American locations are, which were the theme for the volumes written by Catherwood and Stephens.
fairldsorg 6 months ago
@fairldsorg It's quoted in the Times & Seasons from Stephens book Vol 2, p 172: "the Tollecas .. descended from the house of Israel, who were released by Moses from the tyranny of Pharaoh, and after crossing the Red Sea, fell into Idolatry. To avoid the reproofs of Moses ....they separated from him and his brethren...passed from one continent to the other, to ...a part of the kingdom of Mexico, where they founded the celebrated city of Tula.” But you don't believe they came from Moses but Lehi.
Kokopnyama 6 months ago
@fairldsorg If the Maya were not the Nephites, which is the consensus among LDS Scholars, then the Stephens and Catherwood book (about the Maya) was not about the Nephites, which makes Joseph Smith a liar about Stephens' book. (But Stephens does mention, in a chapter, about North American mounds/ruins. Check GoogleBooks.) But to cover themselves, the Mesoamerica theory proponents have changed the theory, now claiming the Nephites lived among the Maya. This is waffling when the facts don't fit.
Kokopnyama 6 months ago
@fairldsorg 1 Ne12:20 states after destroying the Nephites, the Lamanties went forth in multitudes upon the face of the land. They could have then intermarried with the Maya who were on the land before Lehi, making the current Maya mixed descendants of Lehi. Jacob 5 talks of 3-4 branches of the House of Israel being led to the nether parts of the Earth, the branch of Lehi being the last. And F.A.R.M.S. has declared the Nephites were not the Maya.
Kokopnyama 6 months ago
I don't believe Joseph really said all these things. And in that "luminous and comprehensive" quote, Joseph made NO connection to The Book of Mormon throughout the rest of the letter to brother Bernheisle or however you spell his name. And the quote after that one from the Times and Seasons about the narrow neck of land wasn't Joseph's writing or approved by him directly because the pages don't have his signature on the back.
The Mesoamerican theory is a fabrication of men and far from doctrine
biggdannyd 8 months ago
@biggdannyd Actually, he did make the connection. He said that it "corresponds with and supports The Book of Mormon", and of all the histories it is the most correct. How would he know it was correct if it had nothing to do with The Book of Mormon?
And yes, the T/S articles are signed as "Editor". Since he was the Editor at the time and said that "I alone stand for" the contents of it, we are safe to say it was him. But, recently word print studies have been done which also show him to be the
fairldsorg 8 months ago
@fairldsorg 1. Where is the connection? show me. 2. He was NOT the editor at the time, the twelve were and the pages don't have his signature.
3. Mesoamerica is not the land of promise according to the Book of Mormon, D&C, and the Pearl of Great Price. Joseph knew this and logically, him stating it's somewhere else doesn't make sense and I therefore think such documentation would be a fabrication.
Why are you all so fixated on Mesoamerica?
biggdannyd 8 months ago
@biggdannyd Actually, Joseph Smith took over the editorship from the 12 and stated such in the Times and Seasons in the March 15th 1842 edition and resigns the position to John Taylor in the November 15th 1842. It is well documented. Those who advocate other theories don't volunteer that information.
I am not fixated on Mesoamerica but believe the strongest evidence for The BOM can be found there. I don't care where it took place and if evidence comes about that it places it elsewhere, then I
fairldsorg 8 months ago
@fairldsorg will change my opinion and advocate that theory. But thus far, that is where I think it took place in Mesoamerica. I don't care where others believe it took place but only have a problem when people use misinformation in order to advocate a theory.
fairldsorg 8 months ago
@fairldsorg Then where did you get your theory? not from any scripture of course
biggdannyd 8 months ago
@biggdannyd Does it really matter where I got my theory? If you must know, it has been evolving for many years and did include at one time the area of the Great Lakes. Until evidence brought me elsewhere.
fairldsorg 8 months ago
@fairldsorg So the promise land is Mesoamerica? and not the United States?
biggdannyd 8 months ago
@biggdannyd According to modern Prophets and Apostles, the Promised land is not confined to boundaries but encompasses all of North and South America
“the land of North and South America is a very much favored portion of our Father’s footstool, and he has declared with his own mouth that it is a land of promise—a chosen land—above all other lands.” George F. Richards, in Conference Report, October 1922, 80.
fairldsorg 8 months ago
@fairldsorg Have church leaders ever said anything wrong or incorrect?
I do understand that neither Canada, Mesoamerica, nor South America have kings. But I also understand no one thinking the frase "land of liberty" is drawn anywhere but to the United States.
I also understand that the American "nation" is not the "nation" of any of these western hemisphere lands other than the United States. When one says "I'm an American" they live in the United States or at least that's their homeland.
biggdannyd 8 months ago
@biggdannyd Of course we don't believe our leaders are infallible. But this would include any statement by any leader on BOM geography, including the ones that Great Lakes theorist use.
While land of liberty is generally thought of as America, Prophets and Apostles have claimed it to be all of North and South America including Ezra Taft Benson, J. Reuben Clark jr, and others. Just like the terms "Zion" "Choice land" "land of liberty" and "nation." Every term which Great Lakes theorist
fairldsorg 8 months ago
@biggdannyd Use to promote their theory is used to describe all of North and South America. "Promised land" should be added to that list as well. So to claim that these terms are limited to what a theory states where the BOM took place is only accepting the facts that are convenient.
fairldsorg 8 months ago
@fairldsorg D&C 84: 1-4 - Missouri, USA = The New Jerusalem
Moses 7: 62, AoF 1:10 - The New Jerusalem = Zion
D&C 57: 1-3 - Zion = the Land of Promise
Ether 13: 4, 6 - The Land of Promise = “this land”
2 Nephi 1: 5 - “this land” = choice above all other lands
Alma46: 17 - choice above all other lands = Land of Liberty
1 Nephi 13: 30-31 - Land of Liberty = Which is a nation above all other nations
biggdannyd 8 months ago
@fairldsorg The reason it’s called the PROMISE LAND is because there are PROMISES GIVEN about THIS LAND. Wherever this “nation” is, it has to fulfill the revelations given in the Book of Mormon prophesying about “this land”.
biggdannyd 8 months ago
@biggdannyd It is also interesting that there are several inspired Temple dedicatory prayers given in Central America which say that the people in that are are descendants of Lehi. I believe that is telling.
fairldsorg 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@fairldsorg Do you have more info on that? Please PM me if you do. Thanks!
Dalessiokiller 8 months ago
@biggdannyd author of these and other articles which place the BOM in Mesoamerica.
I also couldn't agree with you more about ANY geography theory being doctrine. The Church has officially stated that many times. Anyone who claims their theory is doctrine is on shaky ground.
fairldsorg 8 months ago
Stephens and Catherwoods--- Any chance it can be found online somewhere?
omiolo 1 year ago 2
@omiolo It sure can. The first book is called " Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan" and volume II is called "Incidents of travel in Yucatan". They are currently on google books. I'll send you a link.
fairldsorg 1 year ago
@fairldsorg thank you. I will start reading. It downloaded easily.
omiolo 1 year ago
@fairldsorg also send me a link!! thank you :)
EphraimLDS 1 year ago
@EphraimLDS No problem. Let me know what you think.
fairldsorg 1 year ago