Peter Kreeft The Existence of God part 4 of 8 apologetics

[YouBlockedMeOut2]

@ Grandconjunct

Your words: 'Helping people to doubt their doubts'

Grandconjunct, you bite the hand that feeds you!

Fools are spreading excessive scepticism because they don't realize that they are cutting off the very branch they are sitting on.

But the deciever is doing it in order to pave the way to (blind) faith!

[YouBlockedMeOut]

@ grandconjunct, who knows God and his objective morals.

Jacob Bronowski (1973), speaking of Auschwitz, wrote:

Into this pond were flushed the ashes of some four million people. And that was not done by gas. It was done by dogma. It was done by arrogance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality, this is how they behave. This is what men do when they aspire to the knowledge of gods.

[grandconjunct]

Either murdering jews is objectively wrong by an objectivbe Moral law giver or it is only a subjective opinion, and diffrent people vote on whats right and wrong, the nazis thought they could vote on if murdering jewswas like hunting animals or spraying ants and in a Godless universe there is no morality. No one we are accountable to its all arbitrary Atheist opinion so Nazi voted that way you and mr bronowski are the people who create holocahsts Not people who believe in objective Evil.

[VoiceOfModeration]

On the contrary, Mussolini himself said:

"Relativism is fascism. If there is no right and wrong then there is only the strongest person."

I think it's more arrogant to say, "I as an individual get to make up whatever truth I want to believe in based on how I want to live my life." Who are you to rewrite world history or declare what is right and what is wrong?

The Nazi Holocaust was objectively wrong.

[DarthHater100]

The Nazi Holocaust wasn't wrong in the minds of the Nazis. They BELIEVED that the Jewish 'race' was sub-human and a rat like parasite. It was not 'objectively' wrong. From their point of view it was right. This DEMONSTRATES that morality IS subjective. Just because WE can all agree on the wrongness of the holocaust doesnt make it objective.

[VoiceOfModeration]

truth is independent of all things. Really, think about it for 2 minutes. People can believe different things but they can also be wrong - just as Nazis, Paul Bernardo and so on are obviously wrong. And you know it, just give it up already.

[DarthHater100]

Objectiveness can only apply to things that are independent of minds, like 2 x 2 is 4. Right or wrong is a matter of judgment. Judgments are contingent on the minds making the judgment, and are therefore, by definition, subjective by their very nature. Even if GOD says green is the prettiest color, it is still a judgement call and still therefore, subjective. You will never find an ultimate truth on subjective matters, that would be contradictory and impossible.

[VoiceOfModeration]

Truth is independent of minds and only exists in them as understood and accepted. Truth is BY NATURE objective and actual. If you really don't believe that what the Nazis did was morally disgusting, then that might be an interesting psychological fact about you, but it plays no role in the discussion.

[DarthHater100]

On matters of opinion, truth is SUBJECTive. That means it is not absolute, there is no write answer or wrong answer. You don't get it. It doesn't matter if 'I' find what the Nazis did wrong. It doesn't matter if 100% of all people AND God agree. It is still an OPINION from the point of view of a SUBJECT. It's "SUBJECTIVE". I don't know how to put this in any plainer language. Maybe you should Google the terms 'subjective', 'objective', and 'truth'. You don't seem to know what they mean.

[manu191357]

I don't believe in God!

But I definitely know that I can and want to act ethically. I am able to evaluate my actions, actions of others and even the actions of God.

What if God ordered me to sacrifice my first-born to his glory?

Morals are independent of God - thus morals can't be an argument for the existence of God!

[Daxcheese]

But thats the whole point of what Kreeft is saying ! Alot of athiests mistake theists on this point, Kreeft is not saying atheists have moral laws or that there isnt a desire to be good. Thats the whole essence of his argument, questioning the reason why we feel that way. I think you have misunderstood this video ...

[grandconjunct]

Kreefts whole point is the atheist monkey can behave morally , yes! , but can you give the monkey a "good reason" to be moral ? that is the question and the answer if no , not if you assume a godless universe. God Never asked anyone to murder anyone else He owns life and wanted to take Issacs life and use Abraham as his instrument in doing so , thats a big difference atheists misunderstand, but it turned out to be a test of faith ,abraham passed, read Heb 11:19 and learn mr. atheist.

[kmatzukaze]

Actually, the Judeo-Christian god has asked many times for murder.

I Samuel 15:2-3

Numbers 31:17-18

Numbers 31:25-35

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Exodus 21:15

Exodus 22:20

Leviticus 20:10

Leviticus 24:13-14

[grandconjunct]

I said God never asked anyone to MURDER (that is take anothers life of their own accord) God can take anyones life at any time he owns all life including mine and yours.and since he mainly operates in this world through Humans he can use any human he wants to "Kill" the life (not Murder big diffrence in Hebrew ) Atheists are "morally horrified" when God takes a pagans life who sacrifices children etc. and even the lifes of children though this is merciful even saving them from this and Hell.

[grandconjunct]

Golden Tablets ?

The bible points to the Moral Law it 's not itself the Moral law. Malilu either Morality is objective or subjective,God keeps it objective, Atheism makes it subjective which reduces to relativism which reduces to nihilism If there is no God there is no such thing as Morality. only an illuision. Why should anyone care about others needs if there is no Morality only chemical feelings within us ? science doesnt discover morality it can build a bomb but not tell us when to use it.

[malilu100]

Do you really think, Abraham needed golden tablets with commandments to know that sacrificing his son was not right? Do you really think, telling people to obey commandments given by an authority can be sold as a good reason to be moral?

Teach them to listen to their needs and the needs of others and how to think on their own. Morals are within us - regardless of the existence of God! Evolutionary epistemology and related sciences have explained this already.

[Daxcheese]

Slight correction, second sentence after comma, Kreeft is not saying atheists DONT have moral laws. Sorry bout that :-D

[01inChrististruelife]

The Bible says that God's moral laws are written on our minds. For example a man will have a knowing that he should love his wife. If he doesn't love her, he may or may not feel guilty about it but the knowledge that he should do so is there. He may justify his actions by saying that it his her fault that he doesn't. Even in trying to justify his actions proves that the law is written upon his mind. But know that all have sinned and fallen short but Jesus died for our sins. John 3:16

[jirace]

Why not be evil? Because we all have a biological instinct or drive to survive.

There are several forms of struggles for survival that could determine selection (natural or behavioral selection). These are a struggle against the environment, a struggle against other species and a struggle against your own species. Being evil would decrease ones likelyhood of survival because one would likely make a greater enemy of ones species and their likelihood to reproduce or to survive decreases.

[cheesemonkey1990]

So we must all be good and love everyone or DIE. That is exactly what you are suggesting. We must realize that if this were instinct, then we would always do what our instincts tell us: Eat drink and be merry. IT is a proven fact that Humans can and do risk their lives for each other: That goes against our survival instinct. I heard a story last year of a man who had a seizure in a subway station and fell on the tracks. A man who he had never met jumped down on him so he would not get ceushed

[greatsea]

Nature is predatory and humans are the most predatory species. Humans developed the capacity to sympathize with their prey. At first it was fellow humans. But even nonhuman animals have shown some capacity to identify with their kind. With the advent of the human intellect, however, we see a marked distinction between human and nonhuman capacity for this sympathy with prey. Veganism would be the culmination of this. But morality is beyond this and Christ is its centerpiece.

[elroy2112]

Jesus liked eating fish and I think he was a pretty well evolved guy. Veganism is great for Health but to try and advertise or enforce it solely for Animal right reasons is a bad idea people should choose it first for health then realize animal WELFARE is good, though not Animal RIGHTS since that pretends to raise animals up to Human level when it really simply lowers Man to level of animals who eat other animals and always will, Man must never be lowered to this non-moral level.

[greatsea]

I agree. My comment was too condensed to convey this. What Christ did was categorically higher than the evolution of human sympathy, the latter being a great achievement. I think God calls us beyond this to ethical plateaus not possible in the realm of nature. I believe God has sanctioned the consuming of meat for the nourishment of the body, though one day "The wolf and the lamb will feed together and the lion will eat straw like the ox". Veganism is the future of Christianity.

[outtaker]

I think not. The Christian belief that we may eat whatever we please, except humans (that's immoral, because of the insinuation of murder or defiling of dead bodies, which are unhealthy anyway), comes from Genesis, where God gave Adam, the first man, control over all the animals (he gave them their names/identities). Christ also refuted eating kosher with his teaching "it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out of a man." Another reason why we shouldn't eat poop.

[julzabro]

If one has lost the ability and reasoning necessary to acknowledge, even a mere, possibility that god is a creation of human imagination, then this one does not possess the ability to even consider the idea or, possibility of fact, that humans will still love, care and seek goodness and peace without any God or any God influence!!!

[elroy2112]

Christians do not say its impossible for them to be wrong and kreeft certainly never said anything like that, we do believe we can be very sure that God is real through inner experience and know this to a very high degree of certainly, just like some Immoral actions such as torturing disabled babies for fun is wrong , we can know this to a higher degree of certainty than any scientific fact such as fact the earth is round, if atheists were honest they would admit they know these things also.

[elroy2112]

The whole atheist sham about "being good for goodness sake" is if you ask 1000 atheists what is good you will get 1000 subjective different answers and most atheists will say real Objective

good and evil do not even exist.

[julzabro]

You search for truth because it's your reality. You attain to goodness because it is logical and preserves self and society. So, I suppose, the speaker needs to admit that someone CAN and HAS answered these questions!!!!

[julzabro]

If God does NOT exist, it does NOT mean that everything is permissible.....this is one of the biggest misconceptions of the religiously, brainwashed masses! And it is NO LESS an opinion being stated as fact!!!

[julzabro]

Those who believe that morals are created by men are not suggesting that we bow down or worship the self. Morals do not PROVE God!!! The will behind morals is our own desire for peace and harmony. Morals are the logical duduction for societal preserverance. This is our nature. No god included!

[julzabro]

I trust a tree and it is, no less, a result of the collision of atoms....why should I not trust myself????

[julzabro]

If I believe 100% that our brains came from "mindless chance", it wouldn't lessen the thinking or logical ability of the brain. And trusting a mindlessly created brain is no different than trusting the processes of nature...it is not the brain itself we trust but the testable logic it can produce.

[randomteen314]

This is just me, but if we believe in God we are giving him credit for the basic uncertainties which we all have and it makes us feel special and it gives our lives importance. In essence, belief in God is a belief in ourselves and gives us and our lives meaning.

I view this as a false self-comfort that all peoples have made, they all think they are the 'specials' of a god. It's all too human for it is part of our nature to look at ourselves as better than others. Everything is equally nothing

[grandconjunct]

You have provided no arguments against God, you have just given your emotional Atheist testimonial, I can do the same, Atheism just gives people false comfort they can do as they wish with no fear of consequences, you can be your own God and be as selfish as you like, atheists think they are just special by a fluke of evolution they are smarter than others and think they are better. See How both sides can play tat game ?

I do agree that everything is nothing in an atheist universe (nihilimsm)

[darkforce333]

He had a good point about how you can't convince a manaic that something is wrong. However, what if the manaic doesn't care if God punishes him for doing wrong? How does putting God in the picture change the evil man from doing wrong if he doesn't care in the first place?

By shifting the source of morals on God the arbitrarity of morality only gets worse since our common moral feelings can be wrong and God's rules don't always make humans more happpy. How would we know morality then?

[outtaker]

1)Then the maniac is evil. He knows he's doing wrong, there's no deception. And because there's a God, his evil deeds will come around to bite him in the arse.

[outtaker]

2) You're wrong about God's morality. There's a Bible quote that goes "For those who believe in God, all things work out for good." We suffer, and we question why, but later we look back and say "wow, I was stupid to be depressed so much." It's ok to weep, though. Even Christ wept for his friend Lazarus when he died (even though he knew he would raised). Like a father who knows the flu shot will keep his son healthy, he allows it be done, even though the son feels pain. Just think about it.

[romgtr]

I think that you have the wrong view of looking at God. I have never looked at God so that I can feel "special." Read the lives of Saint like St. Thomas More, or Therese Liseux the Little Flower and you will see how they see God.

[namenamename27]

Why not be "evil" if there is no god? You assume "evil" was not manifested by man. I assume "good"&"evil" are words describing actions that have either desirable or undesirable effcts from a chosen point of view. Jesus supplied nourishment for man to eat. Thats good. Jesus supplied life forms to be devoured by man, thats evil. Same thing different points of view. We make our own morality. Theres different levels of value for indivduals and societies. You judge god when you judge man.

[grandconjunct]

name>>. "good"&"evil" are words describing actions that have either desirable or undesirable effcts from a chosen point of view.

Grand>> Yes if someone wanted to rape you it would be very desirable for them, but not so desirable for you. So your rapist would fully agree with your morality, and If hes a cannibal and eats you, Im sure that will satisfy all his desires and he will call it good , he may even thank you for not trying to guilt him with narrow morality just before he kills you

[grandconjunct]

name>>Jesus supplied nourishment for man to eat. Thats good. Jesus supplied life forms to be devoured by man, thats evil.

Grand>> Yeah funny how atheist are forced into calling eating plants Evil, but then they dont really believe in Evil at all so they should drop the christian objective langauge and just say eating plants is undesirable, raping NameName is undesirable for name but not for rapist etc. there is no Evil in Namenames universe you should be honest and admit this.

[namenamename27]

First off I'm not an Athiest. 2nd, I was talking about fish not plants but that doesn't matter. And I only used the word evil in place of the meaning that it is not right in my chosen moralaity, but not that it's a supernatural view of judgement. And yes ultimatley there is evil in the universe, but only in the minds of those who believe in it. I can't deny that your beliefs do manifest realities in your own world, and you exist, you believe in evil, therefore evil exists, for you. Not me.

[grandconjunct]

name >>First off I'm not an Athiest. Grand>> name you are either a functioning atheist to ignorant to realize you are one or the atheist clowns are trying another wacky definition of atheism in attempt to not have to defend there irrational worldview either way I dont care to learn after watching your truly silly video you posted! you said "we are all God and God is nothing" LOL you are insane in my view mrname and your wasteing my time, and im loosing patience with your word games.

[grandconjunct]

name>>I can't deny that your beliefs do manifest realities in your own world, and you exist, you believe in evil, therefore evil exists, for you. Not me.

Grand>> People who dont believe in Evil manifest evil realities like communism, socialism, majority oppressing the minority

If you lived in a communist hell while people are being oppresed tortured etc. Im sure you wouldnt dare call it Evil, and you would attack a christian like me who calls it evil

but that just shows your insane.

[grandconjunct]

name>>We make our own morality. Theres different levels of value for indivduals and societies. You judge god when you judge man.

Grand>> "Our own morality" is just a word game for "no morality at all." and your "morality" offers no resources for judging Bad societies etc

If a society all agreed they should have namename for dinner and only mrname disagreed, then once name was eaten and his desire to not be eaten was gone too then there was nothing immoral done by your own standard.

[namenamename27]

self morals = no morals? that's just your view, definately not mine, and definately not a universal truth. I like how your responses are vile and silly, just like your satan. What does cannabalism have to do with anything? Besides your god created it right? But I think your point is correct, its wrong to eat me from my view, but from a group of carnivores wanting food, its right, from thier point of view. Nothing is so black or white in reality, everything is in gradient layers.

[grandconjunct]

name>>self morals = no morals? that's just your view.

Grand>> No its just your view ,that this is

just my view. defining morals, good and evil as only what is desirable for you, while others hold the opposite of everything you call "good " evil etc. is just another way of saying there is no good or evil or morality.

The Rape and Cannibalism are extreme examples that are now neccesary to use due to the incredible moral ignorance of the younger generation, who ignorantly dont believe in evil

[grandconjunct]

name>> cannibalism ,Besides your god created it right?.., but from a group of carnivores wanting food, its right

Grand>> No God did not create cannibalism, god created powerfull free agents who can delude themselves into believeing there is no Evil, and justify great evils like Cannibalism , In other words people like you create the moral vacum that creates it then try to blame God. Not only is cannibalism "right" on your view everything is right moral behavior on your standard.

[friscoeric]

You didn't rebuttal grandconjunct's or Peter Kreeft's argument.

[namenamename27]

You make your own morals from your goals and experiences and try to share them, that doesn't require a single all great entity that needs worship. This arguement like most is filled with ignorance of what you really are made of and how the world does actually function. We all share (mostly)the same morals because everything exists as ripples of waves interferring upon one another in an electromagnetic spectrum. The only true purpose is to remain existing as we understand the concept of nothing.

[grandconjunct]

roll your own morality, leads to competing atheist moralities, with nothing to judge between them, but "He with the biggest guns wins". Secularist are naturally Naive about Human Nature and cant see this, and Relativistic "Ethics" is not an alternative ethic but is actually a 100% complete lack of ethics,Nothing, Relgious folk understand concept of "Nothing", Secularists do not which explains why atheist though 3% of earths population, are responsible for 90% of mass murder last century.

[namenamename27]

Not sure where your numbers come from, but your god if that's the way things go is responsible for those murders if your god created us, so who's judegment holds value over the others? If this world needs judgement, it is judging itself as we are extentions of that god. If god gave free will, then we do create our own morality freely. And if your god is all knowing, why does your god need a plan? And if your god is all powerful, can it also, not exist?Or is that a boundary of eternity,hypocrisy?

[grandconjunct]

Numbers come from the top mass murderers of all time Mao Stalin Lennin all Atheists who killed over 100 million mammals (humans) within our life time, but maybe you were to busy calling Bush Evil to read up on History, If Humans have significant freewill we can make decesions that effect each other and our progeny for great good or Evil, Man gets credit for his Evil but unfortunately we have Ignorant people who Question the very existence of Evil, except when they are trying to blame God etc.

[grandconjunct]

You being an extension of God only means you have powerfull freewill like God, it doesnt mean you are determined being like a product of mindless darwinism, where you say my genes and atheistic brain chemistry caused me to be an atheist and caused all my actions. your confusing your irrational atheist worldview with Christianity, but then you believe no one designed your brain so I guess you feel your irrationality is not your fault

[grandconjunct]

name>>And if your god is all knowing, why does your god need a plan?

grand>> His plan was to allow us to be signifcantly and powerfull free agents who form this world and our offspring with consequences and responsibilities, this is the plan, and nothing about this contradicts Omniscience, apparently atheists version of God doesnt plan anthing, and earth must be a club med world where we sit in lounge chairs and never have significant effect on each other. Atheism is cartoonish to me.

[grandconjunct]

name>> if your god is all powerful, can it also, not exist?

Grand>> Is there no limit to Atheistic cartoonery. The Answer is NO, god cannot Not exist, Nor can he make a rock so big he can not lift it, or a a mountain so big he cant move it, or make a one ended stick, or make one hand clap or a square circle, or a spherical cube or make blue speed faster than red but only on fridays,or anything else you can string together with words, but what does that have to do with power ? nothing.

[Oisin29]

do u know the story about god who cannot not to do something

[romgtr]

That is an oxymoron. You combining set of words that doesn't make any sense. It's like saying a married bachelor or a square circle!

[grandconjunct]

Roll your Own Morality leads to many competing atheist "Moralities" with nothing to judge between them, So atheist Governments have always ended in a "He with Biggest Guns wins" mentality. Secularist have a Naive view of Human Nature which explains why Atheist repeatedly make this mistake, and also think Relativistic Ethics is an Alternative ethic when its really a 100% lack of Ethics its "Nothing" Religioius understand the concept of Nothing, secularist do not grasp the concept at all.

[silvercade]

Christians are already atheist towards every other religion. I just go one God further.

[grandconjunct]

pop western atheists are really "christian atheists" as several atheist philosophers have pointed out , "christian atheists" think they can believe all the same things a religious person does just minus the god thing , but oh what a diffrence a God makes , if you were a real atheist you would realize atheism changes everything ! morality , laws , politics meaning , etc..nothing remains the same in atheism .