This guy can't even come close to the feet of Prof Hoodbhoy who is a renowned scholar, thinker, scientist and a doctorate. How does he expect Prof Hoodbhoy to debate with an idiot with a completely biased views of the world based on one religious book. Keep living in your shithole - You don't deserve to stand beside Prof Hoodbhoy.
"Am astounded that in the video you sent me that this man says he wants to debate me when he already has - and lost. How does one deal with such a bold-faced lie? He brought a video team with him which recorded it all. Please let me know if it has been uploaded."
@legandarypaki where did you get your statistics of 75% converts leaving islam?may be from your darwins theory.i know your mother and sister might have been liberated in west by sleeping wih so many white men and you would have thoroughly enjoyed it and got your fake sense of freedom or you might have done sister swaping with hoodbhoy?
I dont understand...people talk a lot of smack against the Quran and islam and yet when an opportunity comes to do it in an open platform with rebuttals and civility, the atheists always back out...Hamza asked P.Z. Myers to a debate, and he refused, and athesits always call Hamza "closed minded"...and now the secularist wont agree to this, and we have people making excuses for him
@wesamalshaif Well for your amusement there is a Skype debate between some atheists and Tzortzis (/watch?v=OE2tFb0IsIs). You can watch and judge for yourself if he is that good at reasoning just good at rhetorical skills.
Although, theists are supposed to be unreasoning and emotional during debates (true; somewhat) , but atheists are not exceptionals. The both sides have concluded themselves right on non productive debates.
Although, theists are supposed to be unreasoning and emotional during debates (true; somewhat) , but atheist are not exceptionals. The both sides have concluded themselves right on non productive debates.
In a country where alternate ways of thinking are routinely persecuted, where people are judged on the basis of their religious beliefs, where minorities are slaughtered without anyone even raising an eyebrow I think it is too much to ask for something to come on the media and openly express their opinion on atheism or agnosticism which are directly opposed to Islam. I have had my share of arguments and Fatwas following them so if I were Pervaiz Hoodbhoy, I would also not join this argument,
@umerjavednisar that is probably the excuse he is going to use.the truth is people are still debating even in pakistan on such things.infact the latest 'Awam ki adalat' show on geo TV is on a similar topic.and no one lost the debate.not even PZ myers.everyone thought their own side won.and watch the Dan barker debate.everyone knows who won.
@umerjavednisar Professor Hoodboy has always complained about Mullahs giving fatwas on Television. Think of this in the context: Pakistan is a developing country with a very high rate of illiteracy, and plenty of illegal guns available to an anyone with enough money. And then there are brainwashed people who can never dare to criticize religion, and anyone who criticizes religion becomes a target of the extremists. A week doen't go by without hearing about a terror attack. (cont)
@thelegendarypaki So its pretty obvious those with an open mind are afraid of speaking out against bigotry. They do their part by writing in online blogs and journals. If a Mullah gives people license to kill on the televisions, that pretty much means death of a helpless average person with an open mind. The guy in the video haven't been to Pakistan so he has no clue what he is asking for, he is asking for Professor's head on a platter.
@thelegendarypaki.he is calling him for a debate on Islam and secularism.these debates happen all the time in pakistan.yesterday on Geo TV,in Awam ki adalat they were talking about a similar subject.I think if people can talk against Islam on TV in Pak,they can definitely come for a debate if they think they are right.
@umerjavednisar And how many times have secular people been labelled as "Munafiq" and "Murtad". I was just reading about this debate on an Islamic forum and people were calling this poor professor all kinds of names, not realizing the professor has done more for his country than any foreign convert will ever do. Its only a matter of time until someone like Qadri snaps and kills the so called "wajib-ul-qatl". Every Salman Taseer video is full of hateful comments. Why?
@thelegendarypaki.dude,people call many Islamic scholars munafiqs and murtads all the time.people call me by those names all the time.i have no doubt that they do call him that.BTW he is not poor.the reason these liberal fascists are called by these names because they have made it their goal in life to fight Islam.the only thing that will happen if Islam comes in Pakistan is that there will be peace.At last.(cont)
@thelegendarypaki (cont) these people have no knowledge of Islam or its history and when they go and see western countries and their accomplishments which no one denies,they think that its secularism that got them so far.which is obviously wrong.it was science and their dedication to their people which got them here.that is why he is calling him for a debate,so that the professor can know that Islam is the only solution and not the problem.
@umerjavednisar You are so oblivious to the facts that you have no idea. Islam is not the solution to anything. Islamic countries have the worst records for human rights. Whats your role model? Saudi Arabia where women cant even drive or leave their homes legally? IT WAS SECULARISM THAT BROUGHT ACHIEVEMENTS TO THE WEST. Read about the enlightenment era vs. the Dark ages. Its all there. Pakistan is still in the Dark ages. (cont.)
@thelegendarypaki This Professor could have lived his life in the West comfortably but he chose to live in Pakistan instead. Does he live a better life there? NO, he dedicated his life to bringing more tolerance and progress in Pakistan, and that's how Mullahs repay him? Another thing about Science, religion and Science do not get along very well. Many Scientists had to work hard to establish their theories. Islam only permits theories that comply with religious belief.
@thelegendarypaki .you are exactly like pervaiz hoodbhoy and and his like when it comes to knowledge of islam.IT WASNT SECULARISM WHICH BROUGHT ACHEIVEMENTS TO THE WEST.read about the Muslim ruled spain.thats where the west got their knowledge from.you must be an idiot if you believe that Saudi Arabia is an Islamic country.
do you know how he will be rewarded by his masters,if he does succeed,which he wont.
Islam and science do get along.there is nothing in Islam that is against science.
@umerjavednisar Muslims have a habit of giving religion credit for everything. The so-called contributions you mentioned were there DESPITE of an Islamic system, not BECAUSE of it. Besides that was what 400 or 500 years ago?
Oh and now you are the authority on who is a Muslim and who isn't. So Saudis are not real Muslims. Oh please enlightened us about your deep knowledge of Imaan that Saudis don't have.
So you believe humans and apes had a common ancestor? B/C thats Science.
@thelegendarypaki.I didnt gve relgion direct credit 4 d achvments.bt it ws relgion,Islam,which cvlised d pple whreva it wnt.I ddnt say tht d achvments wr becuz of the sstem.i jst wanted to say islam doesnt come in the way of science.ask any scholar if he thinks that SArabia is a Sharii state.1st of all its a monarchy.2nd,it hs an interest based economic system,again very,very unislamic.there is no proof 4 humans cming frm apes.its a theory.science believed the earth was flat a few centuries ago.
@thelegendarypaki worst records for human rights? islamic countries? what are you even going on about? you cannot have your own biased secular definition for human rights and then go bashing other countries that dont conform to your ideas...Hamza is challenging him to a debate, not on a bed of pricks or hot coal...on a forum for civil discourse which happens all the time...a lot of pakistanis are secular at heart and this fear you are perpetuating is misleading
@wesamalshaif Lol, my own biased view? How about unbiased, non-apologetic view of the Shariah following countries that openly and proudly treat women like a second class citizens,that openly persecute gays for being gay, that actively discriminate against non-Muslims based on religious texts. I am sorry but Pakistan is no bedrock of human rights. If Islam was in fact the answer, it would have solved all of Pakistan's problem. You never know in Pakistan when another Qadri will snap.
@thelegendarypaki firstly, Yes, biased because "human rights" is a subjective phenomonena...secondly, treating women like second class citizens? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe you are completely ignorant of the status of women in islam...is it second class treatment that their chastity and modesty are protected by islamic law? and that they are not allowed to lower themselves to prostitution and pornography, two LEGAL institutions in your secular societies?
@wesamalshaif I have lived in Pakistan for 16 years of my life and lived in U.S. for almost 11.I can testify first hand that women have it way better in the developed countries than countries like Pakistan and Middle East. There are no laws discriminating against women here and when someone(a religious person)says something sexist - they are immediately mocked by the society. Women have a choice to dress as they want and live as they want without being prosecuted or labelled(cont).
@thelegendarypaki You may be proud of the whole "purity" thing, but under that niqaab women are still being molested and abused by the society. And any Mullah can appear on television and call women names and get applause from brain washed audience. No body stands up to fight bigotry because majority of population does not want to challenge the religious authority of the Mullahs. My dad once told me he liked Benazzir but didn't vote for her because she was a woman.
@thelegendarypaki When I said second class citizen, I meant that they don't have equal rights in many Islamic countries - and they are denied social equality. Look at Saudi Arab where women are pretty much treated like under age children. They cant leave home without a Guardian, they cant drive, cant participate in politics (continued).
@thelegendarypaki In 2002 14 girls burned to death because they weren't allowed to leave the premise of a burning building by the Saudi religious police. Why? because they weren't dressed Islamically to be outdoors. i don't know about you but when I hear these stories it pisses me off at the idiotic reasoning of the religious mindset which doesn't value human well being. Now if Saudis don't know Islam then who does? Do you?
@thelegendarypaki "in 2002.." this is a heinous perversion of islamic law and Allaah will punish them for making such a ruling...Not only is it not permissible to HIT women for not dressing properly, but it is also blameworthy to even RIDICULE THEM...the Prophet peace be upon him said NOT to derise women who are not modest, and he said "DO NOT PUNISH ANYONE WITH THE PUNISHMENT OF ALLAAH (FIRE)"...what more proof do you require?
@thelegendarypaki and if we are just going to trade story after story of injustices being done in the name of islam and secularism this is going to be very long and non beneficial...and "for your amusement" I saw that debate and it was just the atheists cutting him off every single time and not letting him finish his points...it was 4 to 1 after all...and Hamza CHALLENGED P.Z. MYERS to an OPENED organized debate and he refused and said "why do I have to debate, I already wrote a blog.." lol...
@thelegendarypaki Who said they cant leave home without a guardian?? they can even travel alone..f this is done is Saudi Arabia, I can assure you it is not an islamic teaching...I ask you to actually study islam before your misconceptions start being believed by your peers and you spread hatred and bigotry among them..dont take the lazy approach...I studied christianity for 3 years and am still studying so I can engane christians in dialogue, do the same with islam and muslims, its the only way
@thelegendarypaki well its one thing to be molested "under the niqaab" which you absolutely have no proof for, but its another thing to be molested OPENLY and its even worse that YOUR society actually glorifies it...or are you going to tell me that women in the west are not objectified and used only as sex objects? is it better to flaunt a woman and debase her dignity in the name of "free expression" or to be modest and demand respect for who you are as a person?
@wesamalshaif Men's bodies are as much objectified as women, but all of a sudden conservative Muslims who treat their daughters like shit (I have witnessed this first hand) are concerned about objectification of women in the West. Its funny how only men are always concerned about the "dignity" of women. No women here ever complains about about being objectified, only those who are defending religion. Some women are very happy with these freedoms (continued).
@thelegendarypaki what? NO women here EVER complains? look at your consistent use of absolutes...What the heck was the FEMINIST MOVEMENT THEN? If it wasnt WOMEN HERE complaining about being objectified and devalued then what in the world was it? and more double standards sub7aan Allaah! when we say women are happy in Niqaab, people like you say "well, even slaves sometimes loved slavery.." but now you say that as long as women are happy it is ok right? if you dont agree with that logic then I
@wesamalshaif Feminist movement was exactly the reason why women have freedoms or "objectification" as you call it. The kind of treatment women have to go through at the hands of Islamic Shariah law is the kind of treatment they were fighting during the feminist movement. The concept of women's equality is pretty much a western concept - Islam does not grant women equal property rights besides many other things. Tell me where does Quran or Sunnah say Women are equal to men?
@thelegendarypaki Sub7aan Allaah..my friend, THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT IS STILL ACTIVE!! whats wrong with you? do you just talk without knowledge? Women gave Bay'ah (voting) in Meccah more than a THOUSAND years before any woman in the west, so how can you entertain the notion that women's equality is a western concept?? inheritance, rights over children, the right to question government authorities, these are all IN ISLAM WAAY before the west!
@thelegendarypaki h t t p://w w w .womaninthequran . com / articles_02 . h t m l this is the link that will answer your question about "where in the Quran or Sunnah say Women are equal to men"
@wesamalshaif - "the Muslim woman is the most helpless person in the world…. her fate is ‘once married, always married’. She cannot escape the marriage tie, however irksome it may be. While she cannot repudiate the marriage, the husband can always do it without having to show any cause….. This latitude in the marriage in the matter of divorce destroys that sense of security which is so fundamental for a full, free and happy life for a woman. "(contd.)
@MrIndianAtheist you are committing the same fallicies as thelegendarypaki my friend...you are standing on the shoulders of giants...how about YOU study islam seriously and see if his claims are true.."once married, always married" this is a CHRISTIAN concept!! In islam a woman is allowed to divorce her husband if he fails to give her her GOD GIVEN RIGHTS to kindness and freedom!! this is the same misconception echoed by islamophobes who dont know the first thing about islamic theology
@MrIndianAtheist please answer my question first...if youre asking me these questions genuinely, then it is clear that you dont know the fiqh (jurisprudence) of marriage in islam...that is, unless this was a purely rhetorical question..
@wesamalshaif - Cant you even answer a rhetorical question?
The observations are from real life examples in muslims of South Asia. If a religion like islam produces a lot of social evils in every part of the World where it is followed with all passions, then you cant blame peoples who hold islam responsible for such evils in the society. Its like asking people if they know what is chemical composition of human shit before complaining of the bad smell it produces.
@MrIndianAtheist sir, Rhetorical questions are questions that DONT require answers...thats why they are rhetorical! as in, for the sake of RHETORIC! What? Youre saying that hate and misunderstanding that is in your mind because of "examples" and your refusal to actually study islam, is not your fault? Glorified is Allaah who has given us minds to investigate and search for the truth, but look at how we toss that faculty to the side because we are more comfortable with "examples"..
@MrIndianAtheist A man cannot just say "talaq" for any reason! it is a sin, and a major one to divorce your wife without a just reason...there is a whole CHAPTER called Suratul "TALAQ"!! have you read it? because that would have settled things for you...to put it simply, even if the husband just STOPPED PRAYING she can divorce him...if she doesnt enjoy his company and feels no emotion for him, then she can DIVORCE him..these are well known facts a,among islamic jurists based on EVIDENCE
@wesamalshaif - I read from three different sites on divorce in Islam. I also read all 12 points of "65. Surah At-Talaaq (The Divorce)". All these were sites which were meant for preaching of Islam.There is no mention of how can a wife initiate a divorce in Islam. Nor does it mention where will she live after divorce, nor it mentions what should husband should pay for her new accommodation or livelihood. Am I reading wrong chapter or u were doing assumption about quaran?
@MrIndianAtheist are you serious?? wow...I am going to give you a link to a SAUDI IMAM who many of you think are bigoted and masogonistic...read it and reform your thinking!! what you are doing is closing your mind so when surat at talaaq says "And when they have [nearly] fulfilled their term, either retain them according to acceptable terms or part with them according to acceptable terms." you dont even see it!!
@MrIndianAtheist "Lodge them [in a section] of where you dwell out of your means and do not harm them in order to oppress them. And if they should be pregnant, then spend on them until they give birth. And if they breastfeed for you, then give them their payment and confer among yourselves in the acceptable way; but if you are in discord, then there may breastfeed for the father another woman." did you even read this part???
@MrIndianAtheist But this is not surprising...I really hope that you are sincerely asking these questions and not just rhetorically(again, look at the definition of rhetorical before you embarrass yourself again) to affirm your closed mindedness...here is the fatwa from SHeikh Saalih al Munajid a prominent Scholar of Saudi h t t p: / / islamqa . com /en /ref/ 1859
@MrIndianAtheist this is also in the Quran “And for divorced women, maintenance (should be provided) on reasonable (scale). This is a duty on Al‑Muttaqoon (the pious)”
and it says about divorced women before consummation of the contract "But bestow on them (a suitable gift), the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means, a gift of reasonable amount is a duty on the doers of good”
@MrIndianAtheist do you want personal experience too? because I know you love that kind of reasoning...the dowry my wife requested was 25,000 DOLLARS!! you think she will be taken care of if we get divorced (God forbid)? of course...and there is something called mahr al muakhar which is stipulated in the contract that the man has to pay the women a certain amount in case they do get divorced!! what more proof do you need so I can give it to you?
@wesamalshaif - It is sad that you have to pay dowry for getting married. Is that dowry paid to wife or is it paid to her parents on marriage?
I still don't have answer to the basic question, can a wife initiate a divorce in Islam and if yes what is the procedure then and can she get divorce even if her husband is not ready to accept divorce and most importantly where in quran is it mentioned?
If it is not in quran then u have to accept that quran is biased. You gave me a link of a fatwa only.
@MrIndianAtheist it's paid to the wife...did you read the fatwa? it's based on the hadiths of the Prophet peace be upon him...not everything we believe is in the Quran...a lot of things are explained in the sunnah...it is called khul'ah...if, for a good reason, which are mentioned in the fatwa, she wants to get divorced then she has the Qadhi annul the contract, and it is his obligation to do so...simple as that..why is it sad?? you just said that women are not financially compensated?
@MrIndianAtheist women in islam are honored beings...before you even touch them you have to commit to them and the dowry is a symbol of commitment and a way for her to support herself after marriage...and in SHari'ah, the state also looks after widows and gives them shelter if the husband doesnt do so..the believers in regard to their wealth as in surah 51 "and in their wealth is the right of the begger and the deprived"
@MrIndianAtheist Only in Christianity is a woman not allowed to divorce her husband! if you study comparative religion you would know that...do you recall an incident in afghanistan where a woman was raped so the government made her marry her rapist? Every single closed minded person automatically assumed that it was islamic decorum to do that...but guess what? It was JEWISH law and never did any muslim put forth such immoral laws...STUDY ISLAM for yourself!
@MrIndianAtheist just answer this question for me, GOd willing: do you really think, based on your study of islam, that a woman "cannot repudiate the marriage"in islam, and that "the husband can always do it without having to show any cause"? do you honestly believe this based on EVIDENCE from islamic sources? just answer this question so I know whether I should continue to engage you in an HONEST discussion or if Im just wasting my time
@wesamalshaif -"This insecurity of life, to which a Muslim woman is exposed, is greatly augmented by the right of polygamy and concubinage, which the Muslim law gives to the husband"- Dr Ambedkar. These are words of a man who at some point of time in his life studied Islam seriously to see if Hindu untouchables can convert to islam.
@thelegendarypaki I ask you to help the muslim women in Europe who are HAPPY with niqaab but the government is not allowing it and ordering them to take it off...
@wesamalshaif And you keep dodging my criticisms. I have talking about Saudis treatment of women, which is a rich country, so it doesn't have problems like Pakistan. Is Saudi a heaven for women? No, I am sure your answer will be "but the west allows pornography and prostitution, which objectifies women". Well, the West doesn't claim to be following a divine Law. Its culture and laws were derived from secular thinking, sure, but women are still better off in the West.
@thelegendarypaki Im not dodgin your criticisms...you are completely ignoring what I keep telling you about not equating the actions of a government to the teaching of islam!! how many times do I have to say this? and saying "men's bodies are just as objectified.." is not something that is to your favor!! wow...if thats the case then I feel doubly bad for your societies...what kind of logic are you applying here?
@thelegendarypaki I dont know what you are saying by "any" Mullah, but I can tell you have a very strong problem of using absolutes...any "mullah" who says something about women like what? like Ricky Gervais saying Kim Kardashian is an easy scank and then gets applause from every person in the hall? your own arguments are so easilly flung back at you! Islamic teaching has ALWAYS been to be kind and respectful to women, especially mothers, which even you can appreciate
@wesamalshaif Not sure how a Mullah compares to Ricky Gervais...the latter is a comedian. His remarks are suppose to be taken lightly by the society, and making fun of a celebrity does not equal to calling women names (which is sexist). And Mullahs are taken much more seriously than comedians. People can change their lifestyles because of what Mullahs say. Come on you were really trying to bullshit me with that answer. So how do you explain Saudi Shariah laws on women?
@thelegendarypaki I once saw this video on youtube of a Pakistani Imam calling women all kinds of names and describing "Jannat ki hoor" in great details (with many references to sexual intercourse). Another clown is the anchor Amir Liaquat who often passes judgements on women's issues. How are people not disgusted by these idiots? Men attend such Khutbas in flocks and eventually it starts to rub off on their behavior with women.
@thelegendarypaki how are people not disgusted with these idiots? the same way that people are not disgusted with prostitution, strip clubs, and rampant sexual promiscuity (which leads to std's) in the west...the same way people are not disgusted when you can just walk through the red light district and pick yourself up a nice "item" from the shop windows for an hour or two...is that really comparable to saying that if you are chaste in this world you will get hoor in the next?
@thelegendarypaki the statements of Ricky Gervais are exactly the problem!! it has become a comedic norm for someone to be unchaste and sleep with whomever you come across! this is not the reality in islam...we dont back bite people, nor do we make light of something as serious as ms.Kardashian's dignity being steadilly depleted...we want her to raise her head high and cover her endowments so people can appreciate her and so she can settle down!
@wesamalshaif I am pretty sure she doesnt give a shit about what you or any one else thinks of her. I could care less about her life. Why are you so obsessed with Kim Kardashian? May be because it goes against your belief that women should act pure and innocent all the time, well the women have spoken and it looks like they don't mind being "objectified" at all. That's exactly the problem with religious people. They wanna be up in everyone's business all the time.
@thelegendarypaki you, my friend, are left to Allaah to guide you...you say that women in the west are fine with being degraded and made fun of because of their sexual promiscuity and you say that "they have spoken"...well look at your hypocrisy...if thats how you want to see things then why dont you leave the issue of women's rights in islam becuase MUSLIM WOMEN HAVE SPOKEN AND THEY LOVE HOW THEY ARE TREATED IN ISLAM...period..but of course this will not satisfy you...and cursing again? tsk tsk
@thelegendarypaki and can you please not use words such as "bull&%$#"...you are not a child, and only someone with a weak argument will use profanities
@thelegendarypaki the fact that you are telling me that your dad didnt VOTE for A public official, should tell you that Pakistan is nowhere near being an "islamic" country...and I tell this to everyone I debate, no offense my friend, but we have to stop taking the lazy approach to things...as in, just taking what we see and delving any further...this leads to hatred and confusion between people...my friend wanted to marry a pakistani girl but her parents refused because he was syrian..now we all
@wesamalshaif My dad was a pretty conservative and religious man in those days. He studied Quran and Sunnah in great detail. So its not like he was a woman hater - he only held his vote because the Prophet said a woman can't lead a nation. Those were his exact words so his reason for it was religious, not cultural or social. On being an Islamic nation: only two countries in the world have some Islamic laws in place: Iran and Saudi Arabia and like I said b4, they look pretty bad.
@thelegendarypaki two countries in the world? for one, IRAN is SHIITE!! it's baffling actually..everyone i've ever had a dialogue with usually never list Iran as an islamic state because even NON muslims know that they have deviated may ALlaah guide them...secondly based on the incident you told me about the burned girls, and not being able to leave the house alone, it is CRYSTAL clear that Saudi is not an islamic state...in FACT the whole idea of a MONARCHY is the antithesis of Shariah.
@thelegendarypaki two countries in the world? for one, IRAN is SHIITE!! it's baffling actually..everyone i've ever had a dialogue with usually never list Iran as an islamic state because even NON muslims know that they have deviated may ALlaah guide them...secondly based on the incident you told me about the burned girls, and not being able to leave the house alone, it is CRYSTAL clear that Saudi is not an islamic state...in FACT the whole idea of a MONARCHY is the antithesis of Shariah.
@thelegendarypaki know that racism and nationalism are deplorable values in islam, but if someone wanted to base their understanding around experiences SOLELY than they would see islam as a racist religion...and how am I oblivious to the facts? I told you it doesnt matter to what degree gays are persecuted, it is a lifestyle people do not want in society, and this is why muslims societies are strict against them
@thelegendarypaki your entire first reply which began with "I have lived..." is utterly useless my friend...I already told you that you cannot talk about pakistan and equate how they treat women to islamic teachings? what part of that dont you understand? would you be fine with me saying that since pornography and prostitution are legal in the west, then therefore the secular ideology in terms of women is that they are nothing but objects? no so dont apply double standards
@wesamalshaif I only mentioned living in Pakistan because you said I am ignorant of the status of women in Islam. Now don't give me that bullshit answer of "its the Muslims not the Islam that's bad". The actions of the follower reflect on the teachings of religion. Bad teachings from religion get passed to Mullahs who pass it on to the people. I think I have made myself clear that most women will prefer Western lifestyle over Islamic lifestyle any day.
@thelegendarypaki oh, so merely mentioning that you live in pakistan makes you knowledgable of the status of women in islam? sigh...if anything it would make you more ignorant...because if anything makes a person more ignorant than not knowing about islam, it is living in a so-called "islamic" country where atrocities are committed in the name of islam...I feel very bad for you that you had your mind closed because of your experiences but studying islam is the only solution for you
@wesamalshaif Ok so If I live in the West than than I am ignorant, if I experienced religious bigotry first hand, then I am even more ignorant. I guess you have the most perfect picture of reality in which there would be a "perfect nation with no problems" if it followed Islam your way. Not to mention that's what every other Mullah (even from other sects) wants us to believe. As Steven Colbert said - "that's a fictional country any body would wanna live in."
@thelegendarypaki Another thing I forgot to mention. Generally people like Tzortzis present different versions of Islam to different countries. When they are in the West, they present more mellow, humanitarian, and progressive version which is more appropriate by Western standards. As soon as they land in countries like Pakistan they don't give a shit about humanitarian issues that seemed to care about while in the West. Blasphemy and apostasy punishments become completely OK.
@thelegendarypaki wow..see, I am a nice guy and I will give you, once again, the benefit of the doubt...maybe you havent watched Hamza's debates or maybe your ae just lying right now...but I will give you the benefit of the doubt...Hamza ALWAYS is consistent with his views on blasphemy and apostasy! And I dare you to show me otherwise...if some people are hypocrits then that's their problem but dont slander a good man with your assumptions when you dont even know his stance on these issues!
@thelegendarypaki "most women will prefer..." well, Im glad that you didnt say ALL women lol so thank you for that...secondly, statistics show that in the U.S. alone 20,000 people convert to islam every year and more than half are WOMEN...this is because they see islam and how it deals with women and how it encourages them to be righteous and the systems of dress and moral given to them in the Quran make them the best, most pious women on earth may ALlaah bless them and reward them
@wesamalshaif Muslims always advertise how many thousands of people convert to Islam every year and always fail to mention that 75% leave Islam within few years. May be they didn't know what they were getting into. I gotta hand it to the Mullahs, they are pretty good at generating good publicity for gullible Muslims. By the way, many of the converts come from the prisons - May be they are not the most pious people after all. Many those "pious" ladies convert for their boyfriends.
@thelegendarypaki many of the converts come from prisons...maybe they are not the most pious people after all" wow..are you even reading your own comments..they convert IN JAIL not before!!! and then they fix their lives...really? convert for their boyfriends? can you give me some statistics...and part of the reason why so many leave islam (which Im sure is not 75%) is because of lack of information and people like YOU spreading lies...
@wesamalshaif These are the sources for stats of converts leaving Islam. The first one is from a Christian Channel on youtube but the lecture that is played is given by a Muslim: watch?gl=GB&feature=related&hl=en-GB&v=v8EC8-aVlrE
This is the second one, this one looks like a legitimate Islamic website:
ht tp:/ /imaml uqman.word press. com /2010/01/13/hello-world/
@thelegendarypaki persecute gays for being gay? my friend, this is not an islamic monopoly! homosexuality has always been persecuted! even to this day in Western countries they are being persecuted..the simple answer for that is it is something detestable to God and therefore it is understandable...and even secular, conservative people share these views..it has nothing to do with islam...and how do we discriminate against non muslims? last I checked it was Americans and Europeans banning
@wesamalshaif The way gays are treated in West (America) and the way they are treated in Pakistan is completely different. You are completely oblivious to the facts. Gays can openly announce their homosexuality and live a gay life style legally. The government doesn't support or hinder them in any way. Its not my business what they do in private life so I don't have a problem with them however they live. Can they live like that in Pakistan legally & w/o harassment from people?
@thelegendarypaki minarets and the building of mosques, urinating on dead afghani bodies, pepper spraying their own people to death and stopping protests that disagree with the capitalist secular framework...Islam, not ISLAMABAD, should be the fulcrum around which your arguments circulate..because it is simply a fallicy my friend to say that because Pakistan is no bedrock of human rights than that must mean that islam in general is oppressive..
@wesamalshaif Oh man you are just like a Mullah - exaggerating every bit. Here is the breakdown:
1. Building mosques in not banned (people protested but ultimately gave up because the legal system does not discriminate Muslims, they are allowed to build mosques)
2. Some soldiers did some despicable things and they are held responsible for their actions(punished by courts)
3. Again, the protestors were not "stopped" - they were allowed to go on with protests for a long time(cont)
@thelegendarypaki Oh and to my knowledge nobody was pepper sprayed to death - but let me ask you this - would you rather be pepper sprayed by the police and be hospitalized or be stoned to death by an angry mob while the police watches? I think we both know the answer to that. And whole argument that its Muslims that are bad not Islam is such a cliche. Tzortzis is a proponent of Islamic state - well, Pakistan is one and so is a bunch of Mid-East countries who look pretty bad.
@thelegendarypaki just go to theyoungturks channe, which is the largest online news network in the world, and you will see the victim of the pepper spray...I wouldnt lie to you, Islam forbids it...do you know the prerequistes for stoning? do you know more people have recieved the death penalty in the last century than all the 1400 + years of islamic history combined?? it is not a cliche, it is logic! and no, like I said pakistan is not an islamic state
@wesamalshaif Dude I have seen the video - the women didn't die because of it. You are just spreading propaganda to make American police officers look worse than the Taliban.
@thelegendarypaki what women didnt die? It was a man who was imprisoned in jail for trespassing in a hotel he HAD RESERVATIONS in..you dont even know what I am talking about and yet you say I am spreading propaganda!! you are very sad...America INVADED YOUR COUNTRY!! and you are defending them!! wow...you are completely brainwashed...thats like a palestinian marching for israel!! I cannot even believe this absurdity..
@wesamalshaif OK I looked for the pepper spray incident from young turks and its a viral video of a Wall Street protestor getting pepper sprayed. I am not defending American Army's action in Pakistan in recent months (other than killing scumbag terrorists). I am on neither side. I want the world Governments to stop fighting and try to get along with everyone, but you seem to be suggesting that we are suppose to be fighting filthy America for the Glorious Islamic law?
@thelegendarypaki "exaggerating"...building mosques is not banned? I meant that some people do whatever is in their power HERE to stop mosques from being built, government and populace...secondly, it is not "some soldiers", I can show you many many example of this type of stuff and worse...the WARS themselves are indicative of the evils of western ideology...the majority of the people in the west are good people who dont agree with the wars and you live in Pakistand and DEFEND IT???
@wesamalshaif Yeah soldiers misbehave, so whats your point? I used to believe the Pakistani army was the most disciplined and well behaved in the world, then, I found out about the massacres committed by them (in Bangladesh war). I found out that the terrorists who killed civilians in Mumbai were trained by ex-army officers. We don't live in an idealistic world. But you were wrong - Muslims have more freedom in U.S. than in Pakistan because of their secular constitution.
@thelegendarypaki my point is that this is the government you are defending...A u.s marine had a press conference and in front of the people he threw away his badge and said "i dont work for you anymore"!! and then he showed snapshots and videos of all the horrendous things he was ORDERED TO DO!! and this is the military that has invaded Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan FOR NO reason and most of the WESTERNERS recognize this...but you are PAKISTANI and yet you refuse to accept it! what a shame!
@wesamalshaif I have seen parts of the conference and its a good thing that people expose such crimes in the West. I did not know about Pakistan Army's treatment of Bengalis until I came to America and studied it on my own. We never learned in Pakistan about what the Army did to them, but you seem to not care about such things since they weren't following true Islam right?
@thelegendarypaki they were not "stopped"...hmmm so pepper spraying, beating, arresting PEACEFUL protesters is not a form of stoppage?? just look at the comments on the videos of those incidents...Americans and europeans are saying things like "what have we become", "I want to get out of here"..look... a man was strapped to a chair and killed at a prison by guards!! and what was he in jail for? for trespassing at a hotel..if this was done in a muslim majority country YOU would be "exaggerating"
@wesamalshaif@wesamalshaif You are just picking certain incidents to make Americans look like the crazy Mullahs. OK they did those things to keep order (with the protestors), some things you mentioned were cops behaving badly - and there is a procedure to punish them. Now, none of these examples are comparable to what Islamic governments do BECAUSE OF RELIGION. Now you are gonna say its Muslims not Islam. Well, in that case, its people, not secularism that's bad.
@thelegendarypaki Oh MY GOD...did you just say that I AM picking certain incidents??? I gave you statistics, hadith, and a link to a website about women's rights in islam and you have the audacity to say that I AM picking certain incidents? and you dont see what youve been doing this whole conversation?? Sub7aan Allaah I cannot believe blindness can be this bad...I give up...not only did not address most of points, but you have shown yourself to be a vulgar bigot and may Allaah guide you friend
@wesamalshaif Look my sensitive friend, this whole conversation was about secularism vs. Religious laws. You presented your case for religious laws by saying that there is not a single "TRUE ISLAMIC COUNTRY" in this world, and that if everyone followed Islam your way, then everyone would live in perfect harmony. You seem to have created this imaginary place in your head where "Perfect Islam" can be applied. But in reality many have tried to do the same and it never worked (Cont).
@thelegendarypaki Here is my argument - you can leave religion on the side and not mix it with politics, or government, or laws. Make religion a personal thing so nobody has to answer to any moral policing, only to God. That seems to be working pretty good for Western Civilization. You can still have a distinct and unique culture without all the religious baggage.
Is this the same guy who cornered Richard Dawkins and PZ Meyers for a debate on evolution but he didn't know anything other than the creationist propaganda? Yeah I think Prof. Hoodboy has better things to do than to debate a Mullah. Watch watch?v=K-9ly27ik7Q . Thats the unedited debate. Your boy Tzortzis lost the debate to an unprepared Biologist.
yes i've confirmed that he ran away from the debate which is total destruction that hoodboy has any kind of credibility left. Even an idiot knows not to walk away during a debate cause that means total annihilation for the rest of ur life.
@Sinnessa i feel the pain secular liberals have. U chickens must have some huge balls to run off in a debate like that and then make it into a convincing argument also.
@glyyype have you seen his debates or heard him? Both Zakir Naik and this guy use simple reasoning to prove themselves. They are not forcing their beliefs on others and they are not talking nonsense. Anyone who is not filled with prejudice knows that,.
Hoodbhoy's contributed greatly to particle physics with several high-level publications (the last one in 2009). He also has a PhD from MIT and is a chair of physics at a major university. This guy is worth a million of Tzortzis' and frankly shouldn't have wasted his time debating this anti-science moron. I hope Pakistan enjoys continuing to live in India's shadow by listening to people like Tzortzis. Watch out for drones, idiots.
@emukherj So more for hoodhyboy to engage in discussion to reveal to Pakistan that his views are more workfull, but rather in the real debate he threw a tantrum like a child, now talk about being a chair of physics at a majority university, also if this guy is held so high of in your opinion then surely he should be able to engage in simple discussions and have won over his opponents, rather you stating his credentials adds more to his failure in the debate and his childish behaviour in the uni
@mrAsim7 Oh I agree, he shouldn't have walked out. That's just stupid. But I can understand why he did it. Tzortzis makes absolutely inane claims about science and the Quran which are completely unsubstantiated, and wins applause because he's charismatic and can hoodwink people who know no better. Most reputable scientists would be fuming mad if they "debated" a character like that, especially because in science theories are hashed out through publication, not cheap audience-hypnotizing tactics.
@emukherj when was Tzortzis AntiScience anyway? Remember that this guy does not come from a muslim family. He is Greek and converted after having spent some time looking into the religion itself. He is not an idiot.
@MatrixOfDynamism Go to his website and read his articles. The one on the quantum vacuum is not even wrong it's so bad, and in his response to The God Delusion he cites crackpots Barrow and Tipler to show that evolution cannot happen, never mind the fact their argument is terrible.
As an olive branch, let me say that I think the muslim conception of economics is interesting and that the social welfare aspects of sharia are noble. But there's very little else about islam that I find defensible.
How can you debate with somebody who thinks that an imaginary being exists in the sky? You can only feel sorry for such people. Pervez Hoodbhoy shouldn't waste his time debating rationality with people who don't even know what rationality means.
@kollaborationist He will define for your what Rationality means, you are a human being believe in many things that are not seens as well. Have you seen Neutrons or Protons and any of the other things like EM waves? No, but there is a logical evidence that points to these things existing. There is a logical evidence for God's existance as well.
@MatrixOfDynamism There is as much 'logical' evidence for the existence of god as the existence of 'Russell's teapot' orbiting the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars. Stop wasting your time and mine.
@MatrixOfDynamism Its not logical evidence, its empirical evidence. We know EM waves exist because physical phenomena can be explained by their existing as they do. God doesn't have this property.
as i said that i myself is waiting for IERA to upload the video. I dont have the video, if i had the video would have uploaded it straight away. he already touched hamza's arguementt, which shows that he did not have any answers.
Wasn't allah smart enough to see that liberal capitalism will cause problems in Islamic countries? If Islamic principles are in danger due to liberal capitalism then it is fault of islamic society, Quran and of course writer named allah claimed to have written Quran. If fact the only islamic countries not in trouble are those that have accepted capitalism.
@MrIndianAtheist Allah has put the solutions in his religion, but the Elite of muslim countries in the post colonial world is not too much bothered about it.
Hamza literally ripped apart professor Hoodbhoy. evidence is the video which i am waiting to be uploaded by the IERA. Hoodbhoy had not a single argument except what the mad mullah in our t.v channels say about Islam. For heaven's sake what does that have to do with Hamza or Islam? or even atheism?
Hoodbhoy just didn't cry their but did everything else!
@omerulz1 -What you call 'ripping apart' might just be "woof woof! holy book has all knowledge of science" for others. Be specific on what you think hoodbhoy could not answer or post the video.
The idea that problems arise in the Islamic world due to liberal capitalism is absurd, and lacking in logic. The problem rests squarely in Islam. It's the "nationalism", per se, towards a specific religion. When a religion proclaims it's adherents to be the "chosen people", it automatically degrades others. When a religion says hell-fire awaits those who do not conform their ideologies, it causes rifts and differences in society. Sincerely hope Dr. Hoodbhoy does not fall victim to blasphemy law.
@Rafeownsyou Clearly you are not aware of who Bro. Hamza Andreas is. He is infact a greek who converted to islam and has speaken at almost all world-renowned universities in U.K., america to even malaysia and as far as lebanon. And, yes he will be debating with mr. Hoodhboy at LUMS, and insha Allah, this will prove that hamza is a sincere individual not the kind of man you slander him of being. May Allah guide us all, ameen ya rab.
@Rafeownsyou Well mr. i was at the debate and it happened otherwise. mr. hoodboy had a weaker position throughout the argument and the question and answer session and finnaly he got angry and yelled at Hamza and left the stage. Inshallah when the video uploads you will see
@djuicecompk hahaha so the mullah irritated a rational thinker? why is he attacking hoodbhoy? because he is one of the few pakistanis who is an MIT graduate and serving the country? Dumbfucks.
@Rafeownsyou Actually Hoodbhoy is a dumbfuck who has not published any scientific work in last 12 years or so.Can you tell me what is his contribution towards scientific discoveries?
@Sab791 - Hoodbhoy has very bravely pointed out fault lines of pakistani society and gov in many essays and news channel shows. In 2009, he predicted a very bad time for people of pakistan in and last 3 years have been like hell for pakistan.
Even when he was called traitor in 2008 for his views about Mumbai attacks, he stood his ground and was proven to be a brave intellectual when pakistan's government finally accepted Kasab being pakistani national.
@mrAsim7 - Atheist is the one who has serious doubt about existence of sky daddy. No religious nut job has ever produced any proof of existence of such sky daddy that responds to prayers or any other form of worship or even to good conduct. And we all know how fear of this sky daddy and stupid logic of rebirth has been used to impose slavery, slaughter, child abuse and hell of other horrible practices.
@MrIndianAtheist Ok so we heard your perspective, i mean its not like atheism was mared with violence so high yet in such a short period i.e. stalin murdered 20,000 people, but is it not true of Hamza to say that when things are non existent then exist it requires a cause, so we know via big bang the universe was so, so surely there must been a cause who is intelligent, because you have to have a will for the universe to exist, will indicates choice and choice indicates intel
@MrIndianAtheist I think its quite obvious, he wants people to use their mind and reason he has given them and which is innate in humans ( see professor justin barrets study) to make up such a very simple conclusion, thus to reward those who utilised their brains ( it isn't brainstorn even the layman can understand) and to punish those who were so bigoted in falsehood ( well hopefully anyway to a severe degree), in short he doesnt even need to for us to know
@mrAsim7 - your god seems to be some kind of bigot by ur description. Why would he waste his time doing this sick game of "I wont tell you but u r screwed if you dont get it on your own"? How can playing such a sick contest be of more priority for that sky daddy than doing good things like preventing murders,rapes,child abuse, violence against innocents, wars, communal riots, floods, earth quakes, tsunamis and starvation?
@MrIndianAtheist I would ask that you do not make such foolish comments such as " does your sky daddy have balls", you are only making things worse in the hereafter, in which a day will come when you will get to see your lord, but trembling, wimpering, supplicating, this would be your nature then and a mother will drop her new born child, so for your own sake i would ask that you ask repentence, nevertheless if you dont then you only harm yourself
@MrIndianAtheist by repentence i mean privately, not in public here, i dont want you to deter away from doing so due to pride, but nevertheless as a person who loves science so much you should no there is nothing for you to feel proud about, we humans could not lean back without pages and pages of chemical formulas (cf) taking place, nor understand, nor even wiggle our thumbs, if anything went wrong with cf we would have resulted in inadequecy of doing the most simple things!
@MrIndianAtheist (part 2) sorry for the very simple arguement but youtube only allows a certain amount, yeah i know its quite absurd isn't it, just imagine a SKY DADDY who supposedly created the universe, its like saying that the laptop i got is manufactured, HOW ABSURD..surely out of nothing comes something and not nothing!!!!
@mrAsim7 laptops don't reproduce and mutate, stop falling for Paley's watch. And particles pop in and out of existence all the time. Read Lawrence Krauss "A Universe From Nothing" to see what I mean.
@emukherj is the universe reproducing and mutating? i think your talking about spontaneous events in quantam vaccum, firstly i would say just because you cant identify the cause of particles, you cant say it isn't caused ( i'll get to the science later), and secondly it is impossible for these to ocur without a cause, because you will still be insinuating it exists for it created ( an action) it self thus must have been always existent! Also this isnt paleys watch ( intelligent design)
@mrAsim7 You're using the Tzortzis Reply, which is nonsense. There's three issues here.
1. The Bohm vs Heisenberg interpretation debate doesn't apply to Quantum Field Theory (QFT), which is what is used to explain the spontaneous creation of particles (and is incredibly accurate).
This guy can't even come close to the feet of Prof Hoodbhoy who is a renowned scholar, thinker, scientist and a doctorate. How does he expect Prof Hoodbhoy to debate with an idiot with a completely biased views of the world based on one religious book. Keep living in your shithole - You don't deserve to stand beside Prof Hoodbhoy.
raj6408 1 week ago
From Pervez Hoodbhoy:
"Am astounded that in the video you sent me that this man says he wants to debate me when he already has - and lost. How does one deal with such a bold-faced lie? He brought a video team with him which recorded it all. Please let me know if it has been uploaded."
zakidvai 2 weeks ago
@zakidvai Says the one who ran away at the end of the debate. What a joke of a man.
EnjoiningKnowlege 1 week ago
this chutiya should not go to west. He should keep his belief in his Islamic Jungle
drupesh9 1 month ago
@legandarypaki where did you get your statistics of 75% converts leaving islam?may be from your darwins theory.i know your mother and sister might have been liberated in west by sleeping wih so many white men and you would have thoroughly enjoyed it and got your fake sense of freedom or you might have done sister swaping with hoodbhoy?
salafikashmiri 1 month ago
I dont understand...people talk a lot of smack against the Quran and islam and yet when an opportunity comes to do it in an open platform with rebuttals and civility, the atheists always back out...Hamza asked P.Z. Myers to a debate, and he refused, and athesits always call Hamza "closed minded"...and now the secularist wont agree to this, and we have people making excuses for him
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif Well for your amusement there is a Skype debate between some atheists and Tzortzis (/watch?v=OE2tFb0IsIs). You can watch and judge for yourself if he is that good at reasoning just good at rhetorical skills.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
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Although, theists are supposed to be unreasoning and emotional during debates (true; somewhat) , but atheists are not exceptionals. The both sides have concluded themselves right on non productive debates.
tariqaziz18 1 month ago
Although, theists are supposed to be unreasoning and emotional during debates (true; somewhat) , but atheist are not exceptionals. The both sides have concluded themselves right on non productive debates.
tariqaziz18 1 month ago
In a country where alternate ways of thinking are routinely persecuted, where people are judged on the basis of their religious beliefs, where minorities are slaughtered without anyone even raising an eyebrow I think it is too much to ask for something to come on the media and openly express their opinion on atheism or agnosticism which are directly opposed to Islam. I have had my share of arguments and Fatwas following them so if I were Pervaiz Hoodbhoy, I would also not join this argument,
altamashhaikhan 1 month ago 2
Yes!!!!.Hamza is great.Hoodbhoy is a scumbag.he is a true enemy of Islam.he hates Islam and always speaks against Shariah in pakistan.
umerjavednisar 1 month ago
debating people like Tzortzis just gives them the intellectual dignity and the notoriety they so much desire but don't deserve
they are mainly self-promoting manipulators
hlodwig1000 1 month ago
After what Pakistani Mullahs did to Salman Taseer, I think every rational, secular thinker would run from such debates.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago 3
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umerjavednisar 1 month ago
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@umerjavednisar that is probably the excuse he is going to use.the truth is people are still debating even in pakistan on such things.infact the latest 'Awam ki adalat' show on geo TV is on a similar topic.and no one lost the debate.not even PZ myers.everyone thought their own side won.and watch the Dan barker debate.everyone knows who won.
umerjavednisar 1 month ago
@umerjavednisar Professor Hoodboy has always complained about Mullahs giving fatwas on Television. Think of this in the context: Pakistan is a developing country with a very high rate of illiteracy, and plenty of illegal guns available to an anyone with enough money. And then there are brainwashed people who can never dare to criticize religion, and anyone who criticizes religion becomes a target of the extremists. A week doen't go by without hearing about a terror attack. (cont)
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki So its pretty obvious those with an open mind are afraid of speaking out against bigotry. They do their part by writing in online blogs and journals. If a Mullah gives people license to kill on the televisions, that pretty much means death of a helpless average person with an open mind. The guy in the video haven't been to Pakistan so he has no clue what he is asking for, he is asking for Professor's head on a platter.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago 5
@thelegendarypaki.he is calling him for a debate on Islam and secularism.these debates happen all the time in pakistan.yesterday on Geo TV,in Awam ki adalat they were talking about a similar subject.I think if people can talk against Islam on TV in Pak,they can definitely come for a debate if they think they are right.
umerjavednisar 1 month ago
@umerjavednisar And how many times have secular people been labelled as "Munafiq" and "Murtad". I was just reading about this debate on an Islamic forum and people were calling this poor professor all kinds of names, not realizing the professor has done more for his country than any foreign convert will ever do. Its only a matter of time until someone like Qadri snaps and kills the so called "wajib-ul-qatl". Every Salman Taseer video is full of hateful comments. Why?
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki.dude,people call many Islamic scholars munafiqs and murtads all the time.people call me by those names all the time.i have no doubt that they do call him that.BTW he is not poor.the reason these liberal fascists are called by these names because they have made it their goal in life to fight Islam.the only thing that will happen if Islam comes in Pakistan is that there will be peace.At last.(cont)
umerjavednisar 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki (cont) these people have no knowledge of Islam or its history and when they go and see western countries and their accomplishments which no one denies,they think that its secularism that got them so far.which is obviously wrong.it was science and their dedication to their people which got them here.that is why he is calling him for a debate,so that the professor can know that Islam is the only solution and not the problem.
umerjavednisar 1 month ago
@umerjavednisar You are so oblivious to the facts that you have no idea. Islam is not the solution to anything. Islamic countries have the worst records for human rights. Whats your role model? Saudi Arabia where women cant even drive or leave their homes legally? IT WAS SECULARISM THAT BROUGHT ACHIEVEMENTS TO THE WEST. Read about the enlightenment era vs. the Dark ages. Its all there. Pakistan is still in the Dark ages. (cont.)
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki This Professor could have lived his life in the West comfortably but he chose to live in Pakistan instead. Does he live a better life there? NO, he dedicated his life to bringing more tolerance and progress in Pakistan, and that's how Mullahs repay him? Another thing about Science, religion and Science do not get along very well. Many Scientists had to work hard to establish their theories. Islam only permits theories that comply with religious belief.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
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umerjavednisar 1 month ago
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@thelegendarypaki .you are exactly like pervaiz hoodbhoy and and his like when it comes to knowledge of islam.IT WASNT SECULARISM WHICH BROUGHT ACHEIVEMENTS TO THE WEST.read about the Muslim ruled spain.thats where the west got their knowledge from.you must be an idiot if you believe that Saudi Arabia is an Islamic country.
do you know how he will be rewarded by his masters,if he does succeed,which he wont.
Islam and science do get along.there is nothing in Islam that is against science.
umerjavednisar 1 month ago
@umerjavednisar Muslims have a habit of giving religion credit for everything. The so-called contributions you mentioned were there DESPITE of an Islamic system, not BECAUSE of it. Besides that was what 400 or 500 years ago?
Oh and now you are the authority on who is a Muslim and who isn't. So Saudis are not real Muslims. Oh please enlightened us about your deep knowledge of Imaan that Saudis don't have.
So you believe humans and apes had a common ancestor? B/C thats Science.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki.I didnt gve relgion direct credit 4 d achvments.bt it ws relgion,Islam,which cvlised d pple whreva it wnt.I ddnt say tht d achvments wr becuz of the sstem.i jst wanted to say islam doesnt come in the way of science.ask any scholar if he thinks that SArabia is a Sharii state.1st of all its a monarchy.2nd,it hs an interest based economic system,again very,very unislamic.there is no proof 4 humans cming frm apes.its a theory.science believed the earth was flat a few centuries ago.
umerjavednisar 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki worst records for human rights? islamic countries? what are you even going on about? you cannot have your own biased secular definition for human rights and then go bashing other countries that dont conform to your ideas...Hamza is challenging him to a debate, not on a bed of pricks or hot coal...on a forum for civil discourse which happens all the time...a lot of pakistanis are secular at heart and this fear you are perpetuating is misleading
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif Lol, my own biased view? How about unbiased, non-apologetic view of the Shariah following countries that openly and proudly treat women like a second class citizens,that openly persecute gays for being gay, that actively discriminate against non-Muslims based on religious texts. I am sorry but Pakistan is no bedrock of human rights. If Islam was in fact the answer, it would have solved all of Pakistan's problem. You never know in Pakistan when another Qadri will snap.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki firstly, Yes, biased because "human rights" is a subjective phenomonena...secondly, treating women like second class citizens? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe you are completely ignorant of the status of women in islam...is it second class treatment that their chastity and modesty are protected by islamic law? and that they are not allowed to lower themselves to prostitution and pornography, two LEGAL institutions in your secular societies?
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif I have lived in Pakistan for 16 years of my life and lived in U.S. for almost 11.I can testify first hand that women have it way better in the developed countries than countries like Pakistan and Middle East. There are no laws discriminating against women here and when someone(a religious person)says something sexist - they are immediately mocked by the society. Women have a choice to dress as they want and live as they want without being prosecuted or labelled(cont).
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki You may be proud of the whole "purity" thing, but under that niqaab women are still being molested and abused by the society. And any Mullah can appear on television and call women names and get applause from brain washed audience. No body stands up to fight bigotry because majority of population does not want to challenge the religious authority of the Mullahs. My dad once told me he liked Benazzir but didn't vote for her because she was a woman.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki When I said second class citizen, I meant that they don't have equal rights in many Islamic countries - and they are denied social equality. Look at Saudi Arab where women are pretty much treated like under age children. They cant leave home without a Guardian, they cant drive, cant participate in politics (continued).
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki In 2002 14 girls burned to death because they weren't allowed to leave the premise of a burning building by the Saudi religious police. Why? because they weren't dressed Islamically to be outdoors. i don't know about you but when I hear these stories it pisses me off at the idiotic reasoning of the religious mindset which doesn't value human well being. Now if Saudis don't know Islam then who does? Do you?
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki "in 2002.." this is a heinous perversion of islamic law and Allaah will punish them for making such a ruling...Not only is it not permissible to HIT women for not dressing properly, but it is also blameworthy to even RIDICULE THEM...the Prophet peace be upon him said NOT to derise women who are not modest, and he said "DO NOT PUNISH ANYONE WITH THE PUNISHMENT OF ALLAAH (FIRE)"...what more proof do you require?
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki and if we are just going to trade story after story of injustices being done in the name of islam and secularism this is going to be very long and non beneficial...and "for your amusement" I saw that debate and it was just the atheists cutting him off every single time and not letting him finish his points...it was 4 to 1 after all...and Hamza CHALLENGED P.Z. MYERS to an OPENED organized debate and he refused and said "why do I have to debate, I already wrote a blog.." lol...
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki Who said they cant leave home without a guardian?? they can even travel alone..f this is done is Saudi Arabia, I can assure you it is not an islamic teaching...I ask you to actually study islam before your misconceptions start being believed by your peers and you spread hatred and bigotry among them..dont take the lazy approach...I studied christianity for 3 years and am still studying so I can engane christians in dialogue, do the same with islam and muslims, its the only way
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki well its one thing to be molested "under the niqaab" which you absolutely have no proof for, but its another thing to be molested OPENLY and its even worse that YOUR society actually glorifies it...or are you going to tell me that women in the west are not objectified and used only as sex objects? is it better to flaunt a woman and debase her dignity in the name of "free expression" or to be modest and demand respect for who you are as a person?
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif Men's bodies are as much objectified as women, but all of a sudden conservative Muslims who treat their daughters like shit (I have witnessed this first hand) are concerned about objectification of women in the West. Its funny how only men are always concerned about the "dignity" of women. No women here ever complains about about being objectified, only those who are defending religion. Some women are very happy with these freedoms (continued).
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki what? NO women here EVER complains? look at your consistent use of absolutes...What the heck was the FEMINIST MOVEMENT THEN? If it wasnt WOMEN HERE complaining about being objectified and devalued then what in the world was it? and more double standards sub7aan Allaah! when we say women are happy in Niqaab, people like you say "well, even slaves sometimes loved slavery.." but now you say that as long as women are happy it is ok right? if you dont agree with that logic then I
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif Feminist movement was exactly the reason why women have freedoms or "objectification" as you call it. The kind of treatment women have to go through at the hands of Islamic Shariah law is the kind of treatment they were fighting during the feminist movement. The concept of women's equality is pretty much a western concept - Islam does not grant women equal property rights besides many other things. Tell me where does Quran or Sunnah say Women are equal to men?
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki Sub7aan Allaah..my friend, THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT IS STILL ACTIVE!! whats wrong with you? do you just talk without knowledge? Women gave Bay'ah (voting) in Meccah more than a THOUSAND years before any woman in the west, so how can you entertain the notion that women's equality is a western concept?? inheritance, rights over children, the right to question government authorities, these are all IN ISLAM WAAY before the west!
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki h t t p://w w w .womaninthequran . com / articles_02 . h t m l this is the link that will answer your question about "where in the Quran or Sunnah say Women are equal to men"
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif - "the Muslim woman is the most helpless person in the world…. her fate is ‘once married, always married’. She cannot escape the marriage tie, however irksome it may be. While she cannot repudiate the marriage, the husband can always do it without having to show any cause….. This latitude in the marriage in the matter of divorce destroys that sense of security which is so fundamental for a full, free and happy life for a woman. "(contd.)
MrIndianAtheist 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist you are committing the same fallicies as thelegendarypaki my friend...you are standing on the shoulders of giants...how about YOU study islam seriously and see if his claims are true.."once married, always married" this is a CHRISTIAN concept!! In islam a woman is allowed to divorce her husband if he fails to give her her GOD GIVEN RIGHTS to kindness and freedom!! this is the same misconception echoed by islamophobes who dont know the first thing about islamic theology
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif - Exactly how a muslim woman can divorce a man? Does a muslim woman say talaq three times to do away with marriage?
MrIndianAtheist 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist please answer my question first...if youre asking me these questions genuinely, then it is clear that you dont know the fiqh (jurisprudence) of marriage in islam...that is, unless this was a purely rhetorical question..
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif - Cant you even answer a rhetorical question?
The observations are from real life examples in muslims of South Asia. If a religion like islam produces a lot of social evils in every part of the World where it is followed with all passions, then you cant blame peoples who hold islam responsible for such evils in the society. Its like asking people if they know what is chemical composition of human shit before complaining of the bad smell it produces.
MrIndianAtheist 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist sir, Rhetorical questions are questions that DONT require answers...thats why they are rhetorical! as in, for the sake of RHETORIC! What? Youre saying that hate and misunderstanding that is in your mind because of "examples" and your refusal to actually study islam, is not your fault? Glorified is Allaah who has given us minds to investigate and search for the truth, but look at how we toss that faculty to the side because we are more comfortable with "examples"..
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist A man cannot just say "talaq" for any reason! it is a sin, and a major one to divorce your wife without a just reason...there is a whole CHAPTER called Suratul "TALAQ"!! have you read it? because that would have settled things for you...to put it simply, even if the husband just STOPPED PRAYING she can divorce him...if she doesnt enjoy his company and feels no emotion for him, then she can DIVORCE him..these are well known facts a,among islamic jurists based on EVIDENCE
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif - I read from three different sites on divorce in Islam. I also read all 12 points of "65. Surah At-Talaaq (The Divorce)". All these were sites which were meant for preaching of Islam.There is no mention of how can a wife initiate a divorce in Islam. Nor does it mention where will she live after divorce, nor it mentions what should husband should pay for her new accommodation or livelihood. Am I reading wrong chapter or u were doing assumption about quaran?
MrIndianAtheist 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist are you serious?? wow...I am going to give you a link to a SAUDI IMAM who many of you think are bigoted and masogonistic...read it and reform your thinking!! what you are doing is closing your mind so when surat at talaaq says "And when they have [nearly] fulfilled their term, either retain them according to acceptable terms or part with them according to acceptable terms." you dont even see it!!
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist "Lodge them [in a section] of where you dwell out of your means and do not harm them in order to oppress them. And if they should be pregnant, then spend on them until they give birth. And if they breastfeed for you, then give them their payment and confer among yourselves in the acceptable way; but if you are in discord, then there may breastfeed for the father another woman." did you even read this part???
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist But this is not surprising...I really hope that you are sincerely asking these questions and not just rhetorically(again, look at the definition of rhetorical before you embarrass yourself again) to affirm your closed mindedness...here is the fatwa from SHeikh Saalih al Munajid a prominent Scholar of Saudi h t t p: / / islamqa . com /en /ref/ 1859
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist this is also in the Quran “And for divorced women, maintenance (should be provided) on reasonable (scale). This is a duty on Al‑Muttaqoon (the pious)”
and it says about divorced women before consummation of the contract "But bestow on them (a suitable gift), the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means, a gift of reasonable amount is a duty on the doers of good”
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist do you want personal experience too? because I know you love that kind of reasoning...the dowry my wife requested was 25,000 DOLLARS!! you think she will be taken care of if we get divorced (God forbid)? of course...and there is something called mahr al muakhar which is stipulated in the contract that the man has to pay the women a certain amount in case they do get divorced!! what more proof do you need so I can give it to you?
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif - It is sad that you have to pay dowry for getting married. Is that dowry paid to wife or is it paid to her parents on marriage?
I still don't have answer to the basic question, can a wife initiate a divorce in Islam and if yes what is the procedure then and can she get divorce even if her husband is not ready to accept divorce and most importantly where in quran is it mentioned?
If it is not in quran then u have to accept that quran is biased. You gave me a link of a fatwa only.
MrIndianAtheist 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist it's paid to the wife...did you read the fatwa? it's based on the hadiths of the Prophet peace be upon him...not everything we believe is in the Quran...a lot of things are explained in the sunnah...it is called khul'ah...if, for a good reason, which are mentioned in the fatwa, she wants to get divorced then she has the Qadhi annul the contract, and it is his obligation to do so...simple as that..why is it sad?? you just said that women are not financially compensated?
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist women in islam are honored beings...before you even touch them you have to commit to them and the dowry is a symbol of commitment and a way for her to support herself after marriage...and in SHari'ah, the state also looks after widows and gives them shelter if the husband doesnt do so..the believers in regard to their wealth as in surah 51 "and in their wealth is the right of the begger and the deprived"
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist Only in Christianity is a woman not allowed to divorce her husband! if you study comparative religion you would know that...do you recall an incident in afghanistan where a woman was raped so the government made her marry her rapist? Every single closed minded person automatically assumed that it was islamic decorum to do that...but guess what? It was JEWISH law and never did any muslim put forth such immoral laws...STUDY ISLAM for yourself!
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist just answer this question for me, GOd willing: do you really think, based on your study of islam, that a woman "cannot repudiate the marriage"in islam, and that "the husband can always do it without having to show any cause"? do you honestly believe this based on EVIDENCE from islamic sources? just answer this question so I know whether I should continue to engage you in an HONEST discussion or if Im just wasting my time
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif -"This insecurity of life, to which a Muslim woman is exposed, is greatly augmented by the right of polygamy and concubinage, which the Muslim law gives to the husband"- Dr Ambedkar. These are words of a man who at some point of time in his life studied Islam seriously to see if Hindu untouchables can convert to islam.
MrIndianAtheist 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki I ask you to help the muslim women in Europe who are HAPPY with niqaab but the government is not allowing it and ordering them to take it off...
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif And you keep dodging my criticisms. I have talking about Saudis treatment of women, which is a rich country, so it doesn't have problems like Pakistan. Is Saudi a heaven for women? No, I am sure your answer will be "but the west allows pornography and prostitution, which objectifies women". Well, the West doesn't claim to be following a divine Law. Its culture and laws were derived from secular thinking, sure, but women are still better off in the West.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki Im not dodgin your criticisms...you are completely ignoring what I keep telling you about not equating the actions of a government to the teaching of islam!! how many times do I have to say this? and saying "men's bodies are just as objectified.." is not something that is to your favor!! wow...if thats the case then I feel doubly bad for your societies...what kind of logic are you applying here?
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki I dont know what you are saying by "any" Mullah, but I can tell you have a very strong problem of using absolutes...any "mullah" who says something about women like what? like Ricky Gervais saying Kim Kardashian is an easy scank and then gets applause from every person in the hall? your own arguments are so easilly flung back at you! Islamic teaching has ALWAYS been to be kind and respectful to women, especially mothers, which even you can appreciate
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif Not sure how a Mullah compares to Ricky Gervais...the latter is a comedian. His remarks are suppose to be taken lightly by the society, and making fun of a celebrity does not equal to calling women names (which is sexist). And Mullahs are taken much more seriously than comedians. People can change their lifestyles because of what Mullahs say. Come on you were really trying to bullshit me with that answer. So how do you explain Saudi Shariah laws on women?
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki I once saw this video on youtube of a Pakistani Imam calling women all kinds of names and describing "Jannat ki hoor" in great details (with many references to sexual intercourse). Another clown is the anchor Amir Liaquat who often passes judgements on women's issues. How are people not disgusted by these idiots? Men attend such Khutbas in flocks and eventually it starts to rub off on their behavior with women.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki how are people not disgusted with these idiots? the same way that people are not disgusted with prostitution, strip clubs, and rampant sexual promiscuity (which leads to std's) in the west...the same way people are not disgusted when you can just walk through the red light district and pick yourself up a nice "item" from the shop windows for an hour or two...is that really comparable to saying that if you are chaste in this world you will get hoor in the next?
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki the statements of Ricky Gervais are exactly the problem!! it has become a comedic norm for someone to be unchaste and sleep with whomever you come across! this is not the reality in islam...we dont back bite people, nor do we make light of something as serious as ms.Kardashian's dignity being steadilly depleted...we want her to raise her head high and cover her endowments so people can appreciate her and so she can settle down!
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif I am pretty sure she doesnt give a shit about what you or any one else thinks of her. I could care less about her life. Why are you so obsessed with Kim Kardashian? May be because it goes against your belief that women should act pure and innocent all the time, well the women have spoken and it looks like they don't mind being "objectified" at all. That's exactly the problem with religious people. They wanna be up in everyone's business all the time.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki you, my friend, are left to Allaah to guide you...you say that women in the west are fine with being degraded and made fun of because of their sexual promiscuity and you say that "they have spoken"...well look at your hypocrisy...if thats how you want to see things then why dont you leave the issue of women's rights in islam becuase MUSLIM WOMEN HAVE SPOKEN AND THEY LOVE HOW THEY ARE TREATED IN ISLAM...period..but of course this will not satisfy you...and cursing again? tsk tsk
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki and can you please not use words such as "bull&%$#"...you are not a child, and only someone with a weak argument will use profanities
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki the fact that you are telling me that your dad didnt VOTE for A public official, should tell you that Pakistan is nowhere near being an "islamic" country...and I tell this to everyone I debate, no offense my friend, but we have to stop taking the lazy approach to things...as in, just taking what we see and delving any further...this leads to hatred and confusion between people...my friend wanted to marry a pakistani girl but her parents refused because he was syrian..now we all
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif My dad was a pretty conservative and religious man in those days. He studied Quran and Sunnah in great detail. So its not like he was a woman hater - he only held his vote because the Prophet said a woman can't lead a nation. Those were his exact words so his reason for it was religious, not cultural or social. On being an Islamic nation: only two countries in the world have some Islamic laws in place: Iran and Saudi Arabia and like I said b4, they look pretty bad.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki two countries in the world? for one, IRAN is SHIITE!! it's baffling actually..everyone i've ever had a dialogue with usually never list Iran as an islamic state because even NON muslims know that they have deviated may ALlaah guide them...secondly based on the incident you told me about the burned girls, and not being able to leave the house alone, it is CRYSTAL clear that Saudi is not an islamic state...in FACT the whole idea of a MONARCHY is the antithesis of Shariah.
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
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@thelegendarypaki two countries in the world? for one, IRAN is SHIITE!! it's baffling actually..everyone i've ever had a dialogue with usually never list Iran as an islamic state because even NON muslims know that they have deviated may ALlaah guide them...secondly based on the incident you told me about the burned girls, and not being able to leave the house alone, it is CRYSTAL clear that Saudi is not an islamic state...in FACT the whole idea of a MONARCHY is the antithesis of Shariah.
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki know that racism and nationalism are deplorable values in islam, but if someone wanted to base their understanding around experiences SOLELY than they would see islam as a racist religion...and how am I oblivious to the facts? I told you it doesnt matter to what degree gays are persecuted, it is a lifestyle people do not want in society, and this is why muslims societies are strict against them
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki your entire first reply which began with "I have lived..." is utterly useless my friend...I already told you that you cannot talk about pakistan and equate how they treat women to islamic teachings? what part of that dont you understand? would you be fine with me saying that since pornography and prostitution are legal in the west, then therefore the secular ideology in terms of women is that they are nothing but objects? no so dont apply double standards
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif I only mentioned living in Pakistan because you said I am ignorant of the status of women in Islam. Now don't give me that bullshit answer of "its the Muslims not the Islam that's bad". The actions of the follower reflect on the teachings of religion. Bad teachings from religion get passed to Mullahs who pass it on to the people. I think I have made myself clear that most women will prefer Western lifestyle over Islamic lifestyle any day.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki oh, so merely mentioning that you live in pakistan makes you knowledgable of the status of women in islam? sigh...if anything it would make you more ignorant...because if anything makes a person more ignorant than not knowing about islam, it is living in a so-called "islamic" country where atrocities are committed in the name of islam...I feel very bad for you that you had your mind closed because of your experiences but studying islam is the only solution for you
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif Ok so If I live in the West than than I am ignorant, if I experienced religious bigotry first hand, then I am even more ignorant. I guess you have the most perfect picture of reality in which there would be a "perfect nation with no problems" if it followed Islam your way. Not to mention that's what every other Mullah (even from other sects) wants us to believe. As Steven Colbert said - "that's a fictional country any body would wanna live in."
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki Another thing I forgot to mention. Generally people like Tzortzis present different versions of Islam to different countries. When they are in the West, they present more mellow, humanitarian, and progressive version which is more appropriate by Western standards. As soon as they land in countries like Pakistan they don't give a shit about humanitarian issues that seemed to care about while in the West. Blasphemy and apostasy punishments become completely OK.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki wow..see, I am a nice guy and I will give you, once again, the benefit of the doubt...maybe you havent watched Hamza's debates or maybe your ae just lying right now...but I will give you the benefit of the doubt...Hamza ALWAYS is consistent with his views on blasphemy and apostasy! And I dare you to show me otherwise...if some people are hypocrits then that's their problem but dont slander a good man with your assumptions when you dont even know his stance on these issues!
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki "most women will prefer..." well, Im glad that you didnt say ALL women lol so thank you for that...secondly, statistics show that in the U.S. alone 20,000 people convert to islam every year and more than half are WOMEN...this is because they see islam and how it deals with women and how it encourages them to be righteous and the systems of dress and moral given to them in the Quran make them the best, most pious women on earth may ALlaah bless them and reward them
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif Muslims always advertise how many thousands of people convert to Islam every year and always fail to mention that 75% leave Islam within few years. May be they didn't know what they were getting into. I gotta hand it to the Mullahs, they are pretty good at generating good publicity for gullible Muslims. By the way, many of the converts come from the prisons - May be they are not the most pious people after all. Many those "pious" ladies convert for their boyfriends.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki many of the converts come from prisons...maybe they are not the most pious people after all" wow..are you even reading your own comments..they convert IN JAIL not before!!! and then they fix their lives...really? convert for their boyfriends? can you give me some statistics...and part of the reason why so many leave islam (which Im sure is not 75%) is because of lack of information and people like YOU spreading lies...
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif These are the sources for stats of converts leaving Islam. The first one is from a Christian Channel on youtube but the lecture that is played is given by a Muslim: watch?gl=GB&feature=related&hl=en-GB&v=v8EC8-aVlrE
This is the second one, this one looks like a legitimate Islamic website:
ht tp:/ /imaml uqman.word press. com /2010/01/13/hello-world/
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki persecute gays for being gay? my friend, this is not an islamic monopoly! homosexuality has always been persecuted! even to this day in Western countries they are being persecuted..the simple answer for that is it is something detestable to God and therefore it is understandable...and even secular, conservative people share these views..it has nothing to do with islam...and how do we discriminate against non muslims? last I checked it was Americans and Europeans banning
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif The way gays are treated in West (America) and the way they are treated in Pakistan is completely different. You are completely oblivious to the facts. Gays can openly announce their homosexuality and live a gay life style legally. The government doesn't support or hinder them in any way. Its not my business what they do in private life so I don't have a problem with them however they live. Can they live like that in Pakistan legally & w/o harassment from people?
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki minarets and the building of mosques, urinating on dead afghani bodies, pepper spraying their own people to death and stopping protests that disagree with the capitalist secular framework...Islam, not ISLAMABAD, should be the fulcrum around which your arguments circulate..because it is simply a fallicy my friend to say that because Pakistan is no bedrock of human rights than that must mean that islam in general is oppressive..
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif Oh man you are just like a Mullah - exaggerating every bit. Here is the breakdown:
1. Building mosques in not banned (people protested but ultimately gave up because the legal system does not discriminate Muslims, they are allowed to build mosques)
2. Some soldiers did some despicable things and they are held responsible for their actions(punished by courts)
3. Again, the protestors were not "stopped" - they were allowed to go on with protests for a long time(cont)
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki Oh and to my knowledge nobody was pepper sprayed to death - but let me ask you this - would you rather be pepper sprayed by the police and be hospitalized or be stoned to death by an angry mob while the police watches? I think we both know the answer to that. And whole argument that its Muslims that are bad not Islam is such a cliche. Tzortzis is a proponent of Islamic state - well, Pakistan is one and so is a bunch of Mid-East countries who look pretty bad.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki just go to theyoungturks channe, which is the largest online news network in the world, and you will see the victim of the pepper spray...I wouldnt lie to you, Islam forbids it...do you know the prerequistes for stoning? do you know more people have recieved the death penalty in the last century than all the 1400 + years of islamic history combined?? it is not a cliche, it is logic! and no, like I said pakistan is not an islamic state
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif Dude I have seen the video - the women didn't die because of it. You are just spreading propaganda to make American police officers look worse than the Taliban.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki what women didnt die? It was a man who was imprisoned in jail for trespassing in a hotel he HAD RESERVATIONS in..you dont even know what I am talking about and yet you say I am spreading propaganda!! you are very sad...America INVADED YOUR COUNTRY!! and you are defending them!! wow...you are completely brainwashed...thats like a palestinian marching for israel!! I cannot even believe this absurdity..
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif OK I looked for the pepper spray incident from young turks and its a viral video of a Wall Street protestor getting pepper sprayed. I am not defending American Army's action in Pakistan in recent months (other than killing scumbag terrorists). I am on neither side. I want the world Governments to stop fighting and try to get along with everyone, but you seem to be suggesting that we are suppose to be fighting filthy America for the Glorious Islamic law?
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki "exaggerating"...building mosques is not banned? I meant that some people do whatever is in their power HERE to stop mosques from being built, government and populace...secondly, it is not "some soldiers", I can show you many many example of this type of stuff and worse...the WARS themselves are indicative of the evils of western ideology...the majority of the people in the west are good people who dont agree with the wars and you live in Pakistand and DEFEND IT???
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif Yeah soldiers misbehave, so whats your point? I used to believe the Pakistani army was the most disciplined and well behaved in the world, then, I found out about the massacres committed by them (in Bangladesh war). I found out that the terrorists who killed civilians in Mumbai were trained by ex-army officers. We don't live in an idealistic world. But you were wrong - Muslims have more freedom in U.S. than in Pakistan because of their secular constitution.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki my point is that this is the government you are defending...A u.s marine had a press conference and in front of the people he threw away his badge and said "i dont work for you anymore"!! and then he showed snapshots and videos of all the horrendous things he was ORDERED TO DO!! and this is the military that has invaded Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan FOR NO reason and most of the WESTERNERS recognize this...but you are PAKISTANI and yet you refuse to accept it! what a shame!
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif I have seen parts of the conference and its a good thing that people expose such crimes in the West. I did not know about Pakistan Army's treatment of Bengalis until I came to America and studied it on my own. We never learned in Pakistan about what the Army did to them, but you seem to not care about such things since they weren't following true Islam right?
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki they were not "stopped"...hmmm so pepper spraying, beating, arresting PEACEFUL protesters is not a form of stoppage?? just look at the comments on the videos of those incidents...Americans and europeans are saying things like "what have we become", "I want to get out of here"..look... a man was strapped to a chair and killed at a prison by guards!! and what was he in jail for? for trespassing at a hotel..if this was done in a muslim majority country YOU would be "exaggerating"
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif @wesamalshaif You are just picking certain incidents to make Americans look like the crazy Mullahs. OK they did those things to keep order (with the protestors), some things you mentioned were cops behaving badly - and there is a procedure to punish them. Now, none of these examples are comparable to what Islamic governments do BECAUSE OF RELIGION. Now you are gonna say its Muslims not Islam. Well, in that case, its people, not secularism that's bad.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki Oh MY GOD...did you just say that I AM picking certain incidents??? I gave you statistics, hadith, and a link to a website about women's rights in islam and you have the audacity to say that I AM picking certain incidents? and you dont see what youve been doing this whole conversation?? Sub7aan Allaah I cannot believe blindness can be this bad...I give up...not only did not address most of points, but you have shown yourself to be a vulgar bigot and may Allaah guide you friend
wesamalshaif 1 month ago
@wesamalshaif Look my sensitive friend, this whole conversation was about secularism vs. Religious laws. You presented your case for religious laws by saying that there is not a single "TRUE ISLAMIC COUNTRY" in this world, and that if everyone followed Islam your way, then everyone would live in perfect harmony. You seem to have created this imaginary place in your head where "Perfect Islam" can be applied. But in reality many have tried to do the same and it never worked (Cont).
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
@thelegendarypaki Here is my argument - you can leave religion on the side and not mix it with politics, or government, or laws. Make religion a personal thing so nobody has to answer to any moral policing, only to God. That seems to be working pretty good for Western Civilization. You can still have a distinct and unique culture without all the religious baggage.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago
Is this the same guy who cornered Richard Dawkins and PZ Meyers for a debate on evolution but he didn't know anything other than the creationist propaganda? Yeah I think Prof. Hoodboy has better things to do than to debate a Mullah. Watch watch?v=K-9ly27ik7Q . Thats the unedited debate. Your boy Tzortzis lost the debate to an unprepared Biologist.
thelegendarypaki 1 month ago 2
hamza tzortzis the master of sophistry!
halflifeproductionz 1 month ago
HAMZA .. very true .. i heard PROF HOODBOY AND DISAGREES WITH HIM... ALLAH HO AKBAR keep it up good work............. JAZAKUMALLAH
tabahtabahi 1 month ago
yes i've confirmed that he ran away from the debate which is total destruction that hoodboy has any kind of credibility left. Even an idiot knows not to walk away during a debate cause that means total annihilation for the rest of ur life.
blackb3ard911 1 month ago
is it true that hoodboy ran away during the debate?
blackb3ard911 1 month ago
@blackb3ard911 He probably doesn't have the time or energy to debate every amatuer YouTuber who thinks they are a philosopher.
Sinnessa 1 month ago
@Sinnessa i feel the pain secular liberals have. U chickens must have some huge balls to run off in a debate like that and then make it into a convincing argument also.
blackb3ard911 1 month ago
@blackb3ard911 I'm sorry that I offended your boyfriend.
Sinnessa 1 month ago
@Sinnessa typical napaki response. By the same standards and fallacy u use , hoodboy would be your gaylord.
blackb3ard911 1 month ago
@blackb3ard911 He is quite sexy.
Sinnessa 1 month ago
@Sinnessa just as i thought. Mazel tov conceiving.
blackb3ard911 1 month ago
Tzortzis is the next Zakir Naik
some media spin capabilitites and zero substance
glyyype 1 month ago 2
@glyyype have you seen his debates or heard him? Both Zakir Naik and this guy use simple reasoning to prove themselves. They are not forcing their beliefs on others and they are not talking nonsense. Anyone who is not filled with prejudice knows that,.
MatrixOfDynamism 1 month ago
Hoodbhoy's contributed greatly to particle physics with several high-level publications (the last one in 2009). He also has a PhD from MIT and is a chair of physics at a major university. This guy is worth a million of Tzortzis' and frankly shouldn't have wasted his time debating this anti-science moron. I hope Pakistan enjoys continuing to live in India's shadow by listening to people like Tzortzis. Watch out for drones, idiots.
emukherj 1 month ago
@emukherj So more for hoodhyboy to engage in discussion to reveal to Pakistan that his views are more workfull, but rather in the real debate he threw a tantrum like a child, now talk about being a chair of physics at a majority university, also if this guy is held so high of in your opinion then surely he should be able to engage in simple discussions and have won over his opponents, rather you stating his credentials adds more to his failure in the debate and his childish behaviour in the uni
mrAsim7 1 month ago
@mrAsim7 Oh I agree, he shouldn't have walked out. That's just stupid. But I can understand why he did it. Tzortzis makes absolutely inane claims about science and the Quran which are completely unsubstantiated, and wins applause because he's charismatic and can hoodwink people who know no better. Most reputable scientists would be fuming mad if they "debated" a character like that, especially because in science theories are hashed out through publication, not cheap audience-hypnotizing tactics.
emukherj 1 month ago
@emukherj when was Tzortzis AntiScience anyway? Remember that this guy does not come from a muslim family. He is Greek and converted after having spent some time looking into the religion itself. He is not an idiot.
MatrixOfDynamism 1 month ago
@MatrixOfDynamism Go to his website and read his articles. The one on the quantum vacuum is not even wrong it's so bad, and in his response to The God Delusion he cites crackpots Barrow and Tipler to show that evolution cannot happen, never mind the fact their argument is terrible.
As an olive branch, let me say that I think the muslim conception of economics is interesting and that the social welfare aspects of sharia are noble. But there's very little else about islam that I find defensible.
emukherj 1 month ago
Upload the damn video of the debate.
raza220489 1 month ago
How can you debate with somebody who thinks that an imaginary being exists in the sky? You can only feel sorry for such people. Pervez Hoodbhoy shouldn't waste his time debating rationality with people who don't even know what rationality means.
kollaborationist 1 month ago
@kollaborationist He will define for your what Rationality means, you are a human being believe in many things that are not seens as well. Have you seen Neutrons or Protons and any of the other things like EM waves? No, but there is a logical evidence that points to these things existing. There is a logical evidence for God's existance as well.
MatrixOfDynamism 1 month ago
@MatrixOfDynamism There is as much 'logical' evidence for the existence of god as the existence of 'Russell's teapot' orbiting the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars. Stop wasting your time and mine.
kollaborationist 1 month ago
@MatrixOfDynamism Its not logical evidence, its empirical evidence. We know EM waves exist because physical phenomena can be explained by their existing as they do. God doesn't have this property.
emukherj 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist
sorry he hardly touched hamza's arguements....
omerulz1 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist
as i said that i myself is waiting for IERA to upload the video. I dont have the video, if i had the video would have uploaded it straight away. he already touched hamza's arguementt, which shows that he did not have any answers.
omerulz1 1 month ago
dirty mullah. go back where you came from and leave our professors alone. pig.
Rafeownsyou 1 month ago
@Rafeownsyou He is a Greek Convert, he does not fall into the category of people defined as "Mullahs" in your language.
MatrixOfDynamism 1 month ago
Wasn't allah smart enough to see that liberal capitalism will cause problems in Islamic countries? If Islamic principles are in danger due to liberal capitalism then it is fault of islamic society, Quran and of course writer named allah claimed to have written Quran. If fact the only islamic countries not in trouble are those that have accepted capitalism.
MrIndianAtheist 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist Allah has put the solutions in his religion, but the Elite of muslim countries in the post colonial world is not too much bothered about it.
MatrixOfDynamism 1 month ago
i was in that debate held at LUMS on 11/01/2012.
Hamza literally ripped apart professor Hoodbhoy. evidence is the video which i am waiting to be uploaded by the IERA. Hoodbhoy had not a single argument except what the mad mullah in our t.v channels say about Islam. For heaven's sake what does that have to do with Hamza or Islam? or even atheism?
Hoodbhoy just didn't cry their but did everything else!
omerulz1 1 month ago 2
@omerulz1 -What you call 'ripping apart' might just be "woof woof! holy book has all knowledge of science" for others. Be specific on what you think hoodbhoy could not answer or post the video.
MrIndianAtheist 1 month ago
I hope Tzortzis tried to bullshit this guy with Qu'ranic science.
emukherj 1 month ago
The idea that problems arise in the Islamic world due to liberal capitalism is absurd, and lacking in logic. The problem rests squarely in Islam. It's the "nationalism", per se, towards a specific religion. When a religion proclaims it's adherents to be the "chosen people", it automatically degrades others. When a religion says hell-fire awaits those who do not conform their ideologies, it causes rifts and differences in society. Sincerely hope Dr. Hoodbhoy does not fall victim to blasphemy law.
hugga4u 1 month ago
Hoodboy will spank this mullah to his senses in a minute. Retarded right conservative mullah seeking world destruction.
Rafeownsyou 1 month ago
@Rafeownsyou Clearly you are not aware of who Bro. Hamza Andreas is. He is infact a greek who converted to islam and has speaken at almost all world-renowned universities in U.K., america to even malaysia and as far as lebanon. And, yes he will be debating with mr. Hoodhboy at LUMS, and insha Allah, this will prove that hamza is a sincere individual not the kind of man you slander him of being. May Allah guide us all, ameen ya rab.
engineering4logic 1 month ago
@Rafeownsyou Well mr. i was at the debate and it happened otherwise. mr. hoodboy had a weaker position throughout the argument and the question and answer session and finnaly he got angry and yelled at Hamza and left the stage. Inshallah when the video uploads you will see
djuicecompk 1 month ago
@djuicecompk hahaha so the mullah irritated a rational thinker? why is he attacking hoodbhoy? because he is one of the few pakistanis who is an MIT graduate and serving the country? Dumbfucks.
Rafeownsyou 1 month ago
@Rafeownsyou your are forgetting this guy is a Greek himself and a convert. Not a Joke.
MatrixOfDynamism 1 month ago
@Rafeownsyou Actually Hoodbhoy is a dumbfuck who has not published any scientific work in last 12 years or so.Can you tell me what is his contribution towards scientific discoveries?
Sab791 1 month ago
@Sab791 - Hoodbhoy has very bravely pointed out fault lines of pakistani society and gov in many essays and news channel shows. In 2009, he predicted a very bad time for people of pakistan in and last 3 years have been like hell for pakistan.
Even when he was called traitor in 2008 for his views about Mumbai attacks, he stood his ground and was proven to be a brave intellectual when pakistan's government finally accepted Kasab being pakistani national.
MrIndianAtheist 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist
Can i ask why your an atheist, and specifically not believe in a creator, leave aside religion, talk to me from a deist perspective
mrAsim7 1 month ago
@mrAsim7 - Atheist is the one who has serious doubt about existence of sky daddy. No religious nut job has ever produced any proof of existence of such sky daddy that responds to prayers or any other form of worship or even to good conduct. And we all know how fear of this sky daddy and stupid logic of rebirth has been used to impose slavery, slaughter, child abuse and hell of other horrible practices.
MrIndianAtheist 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist Ok so we heard your perspective, i mean its not like atheism was mared with violence so high yet in such a short period i.e. stalin murdered 20,000 people, but is it not true of Hamza to say that when things are non existent then exist it requires a cause, so we know via big bang the universe was so, so surely there must been a cause who is intelligent, because you have to have a will for the universe to exist, will indicates choice and choice indicates intel
mrAsim7 1 month ago
@mrAsim7 - why doesn't ur sky daddy has balls to come out in open and declare that he created everything? Probably he can show us how he created it.
MrIndianAtheist 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist I think its quite obvious, he wants people to use their mind and reason he has given them and which is innate in humans ( see professor justin barrets study) to make up such a very simple conclusion, thus to reward those who utilised their brains ( it isn't brainstorn even the layman can understand) and to punish those who were so bigoted in falsehood ( well hopefully anyway to a severe degree), in short he doesnt even need to for us to know
mrAsim7 1 month ago
@mrAsim7 - your god seems to be some kind of bigot by ur description. Why would he waste his time doing this sick game of "I wont tell you but u r screwed if you dont get it on your own"? How can playing such a sick contest be of more priority for that sky daddy than doing good things like preventing murders,rapes,child abuse, violence against innocents, wars, communal riots, floods, earth quakes, tsunamis and starvation?
MrIndianAtheist 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist I would ask that you do not make such foolish comments such as " does your sky daddy have balls", you are only making things worse in the hereafter, in which a day will come when you will get to see your lord, but trembling, wimpering, supplicating, this would be your nature then and a mother will drop her new born child, so for your own sake i would ask that you ask repentence, nevertheless if you dont then you only harm yourself
mrAsim7 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist by repentence i mean privately, not in public here, i dont want you to deter away from doing so due to pride, but nevertheless as a person who loves science so much you should no there is nothing for you to feel proud about, we humans could not lean back without pages and pages of chemical formulas (cf) taking place, nor understand, nor even wiggle our thumbs, if anything went wrong with cf we would have resulted in inadequecy of doing the most simple things!
mrAsim7 1 month ago
@MrIndianAtheist (part 2) sorry for the very simple arguement but youtube only allows a certain amount, yeah i know its quite absurd isn't it, just imagine a SKY DADDY who supposedly created the universe, its like saying that the laptop i got is manufactured, HOW ABSURD..surely out of nothing comes something and not nothing!!!!
mrAsim7 1 month ago
@mrAsim7 laptops don't reproduce and mutate, stop falling for Paley's watch. And particles pop in and out of existence all the time. Read Lawrence Krauss "A Universe From Nothing" to see what I mean.
emukherj 1 month ago
@emukherj is the universe reproducing and mutating? i think your talking about spontaneous events in quantam vaccum, firstly i would say just because you cant identify the cause of particles, you cant say it isn't caused ( i'll get to the science later), and secondly it is impossible for these to ocur without a cause, because you will still be insinuating it exists for it created ( an action) it self thus must have been always existent! Also this isnt paleys watch ( intelligent design)
mrAsim7 1 month ago
@mrAsim7 You're using the Tzortzis Reply, which is nonsense. There's three issues here.
1. The Bohm vs Heisenberg interpretation debate doesn't apply to Quantum Field Theory (QFT), which is what is used to explain the spontaneous creation of particles (and is incredibly accurate).
emukherj 1 month ago