Consecration - Pontifical Liturgy in the Byzantine Rite

[Archzenom]

Hello there, I am a Roman Catholic and I am interested to attend an Orthodox Mass in English so as to experience and to know how the mass is done in full so as that I will be able to differentiate that with the Roman Mass.

[julianhayda]

@Archzenom

You can feel free to go to any Orthodox Church, a majority of churches in North America have liturgies in English. If you'd like to compare the Liturgical Traditions, I suggest you read the books and articles of Alexander Schmemann, he wrote in English to a Western audience. If you're near Chicago, feel free to visit this church whose liturgy is identical to that of the Byzantine Orthodox, and I could even give you a tour/explanation if you'd like.

[Archzenom]

@julianhayda But I am here in the Philippines and going abroad is one that I haven't done in my life. However, if I may have time, I may go to the United States of America and then I may go to that church that you have there in your video.

[magicsXfive]

This church is incredibly beautiful.

[lockandload94]

Is this the same as roman catholic,just a different way of mass?

[julianhayda]

@lockandload94

No, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is an independent church which is in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church. It's basically in Orthodox Church that respects the legitimacy of the Catholic Church. This is the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the default liturgy in our church which has essentially not changed in our church or any other Byzantine church in 1700 years.

[lockandload94]

@julianhayda if its "in full communion" with the church then isent it catholic? i dont get that. isent it the same same doctrine?

[julianhayda]

@lockandload94

No. It's just like the fact that the United States are allies with the United Kingdom, although both mutually respect and help each other they are simply different countries with different laws and ways of life. And you don't need a visa to visit.

[Garbanzo884]

@lockandload94 There are 22 Catholic Churches all in communion with Rome, each with its own traditions and forms of worship: Melkites in the Mid East, Romanian Catholics, Mozarabic Catholics (Spain), Maronites (Lebanon), Coptic Catholics (Egypt), Malabarese, Malankares, Syro-Malabar, Kneyana all in India, Syriac Catholics in Turkey and Syria, Italo-Greeks (southern Italy), Chaldean Catholics (Iraq), and others... all in communion with Rome. I belong to the Melkite Greek-Catholic

[Freakxt747]

@Garbanzo884 : I didn't know that were so many Churches united with Rome.

I belong to Romanian Greek-catholic Church



[Garbanzo884]

@Freakxt747 Are you in the USA??? If you are with the Romanian Greek-Catholic Church, I know their bishop Bishop John Michael. I used to serve as acolyte with him when he was a parish priest in Aurora IL. I have met Archbishop Lucian from Romania.

[Freakxt747]

@Garbanzo884 : I am from Romania, I belong to eparchy of Cluj-Gherla, our Bishop is Floretin Crihalmeanu

[Freakxt747]

@lockandload94 : It's the same doctrine

The same saints as roman-catholics

The same things that roman-catholics have

The rit of the liturgy is different, it's th byzantine rit

Our head is the Pope

[julianhayda]

@Freakxt747

That is not true in any way.

The doctrine in the Eastern Churches is limited to the first seven ecumenical councils, as with the Orthodox Churches. We do not accept dozens of Western Doctrines because they do not correlate with our Liturgical Tradition, as the two go very much hand in hand. The saints aren't the same either, we follow the Byzantine Calendar, so we have our own saints, some Roman/Universal saints, and all Orthodox saints from before 1594.

[Gunnarr123abc]

Why does he shave!? >:(

[julianhayda]

@Gunnarr123abc

good question!

[jedi1991]

This is beautiful!

[stevensonrf]

He Looks like one of the three kings of the Magi! Doesn't he?

[stevensonrf]

How tall is this Bishop?His hight makes him so impressive!

[Menechem]

@stevensonrf prety sad if thats what impresses you!

[stevensonrf]

Beautiful music!

[Ukirocker08]

You are the misinformed one. its inofrtunate that many Roman catholics or latinized byzantine catholics are so ignorant.

[BrandonVT]

@Ukirocker08 Some ignorance is to be expected. If you live in the United States, you rarely see Eastern Catholicism aside from Maronite Catholicism. A lot of American Catholicism is watered down too, and the Latin culture is all but washed away in many parishes.

[luvpinas123]

for these rites, the consecration happens usually during the Epiclesis.

[stevensonrf]

@luvpinas123 Sorry: but the concretion happens at the words of institution by the priest. Humbly submitted. Happy Christmas!

[luvpinas123]

@stevensonrf I thought Eastern Theology teaches that the Consecration occurs during the Epiclesis.

[Ukirocker08]

Also, the use of the word rite is not Correct anymore, ever since Orintale Ilumen. The correct term is Churches. They are not separate Rites of the Roman Catholic Church, but Churches in Communion with each other.

[Ukirocker08]

Also, the use of the word rite is not Correct anymore, ever since Orintale Ilumen. The correct term is Churches. They are not separate Rites of the Roman Catholic Church, but Churches in Communion with each other.

[Ukirocker08]

Also, the use of the word rite is not Correct anymore, ever since Orintale Ilumen. The correct term is Churches. They are not separate Rites of the Roman Catholic Church, but Churches in Communion with each other.

[Ukirocker08]

No. It is a separate Church in Communion with Rome. All practices, theology,and structure is Eastern (Orthodox). Their is a Patriarch who is first among equals. As the pope is the Bishop of Rome and Patriarch for the Roman Catholics, the Patriarch of the UGCC is bishop af Kyiv and all Ukrainian Greek-Catholics. Any papal teaching do not apply to the UGCC, yet the UGCC is in full communion, hence why the word Catholic is used (universal). Catholic does not only refer to Roman Catholic only.

[barky66]

@Ukirocker08 ! ! Are you SERIOUS? Please go learn about your Catholic Faith, and about the significance of our Holy Father the Pope, before you mislead others with your partial knowledge. Pity, though, that there are many priests who mislead the faithful with this kind of thinking.

[hiHIhiHIfolks]

@barky66 what i find sad is how you adress the Pope, a mere man! you refer to a mere man as the "Holy Father!" surely there is only one Holy Father, that being God, the Holy Father of Christ our saviour, not some mere man!!  Matthew 23:9- read it, it will do you some good!

[SorokChyetirye]

@hiHIhiHIfolks And you can't call your Dad "Father"? Please, all Protestants, stop using godforsaken sophistry such as this. You and I both know there is a difference between calling the Pope or any priest "Father" and God THE Father. We are subordinate to God and the Pope, but everyone is subordinate to God.

Similarly, all citizens are subordinate to the mayor or governor of a town or State, but all of us are subordinate to Federal Law and the Presidency.

[SorokChyetirye]

@hiHIhiHIfolks (by which I mean, Congress, President, and Court all together).

[Garbanzo884]

@barky66 There are over 22 Catholic Churches all in communion with Rome, headed by either synods or their own Patriarchs, all with the Holy Father. The Pope of Rome is Patriarch of the West (although Pope Benedict has given up that title), while the Melkites, Chaldean Catholics, Maronite Catholics and others have their own patriarchs. YOU are the one with the faulty ecclesiology.

[lockandload94]

Is this the same as roman catholic,but done differently?

[stjosephugcc]

@lockandload94

no, it is entirely Ukrainian Catholic, which is in full union with the Catholic Church, but not Roman in any way.

It is based in the orthodox church but joined the catholic church in the sixteenth century.

[lockandload94]

@stjosephugcc so its the same church,just differerent way of doing a mass?

[pgwizdal]

i think that english isn't good for this liturgy

[cnmnancy]

A "Rite" is a tradition of doing or celebrating things- in this case, the Liturgy (called the Mass in the Latin Rite churches). In the Eastern Rite Churches there is more of a "variety" of languages, ie Romainian (and their language), Ukranian (and their language), Ruthenian (and church Slovakian), etc, etc. There are also different traditions.

The DOCTRINE of the church is the same, the Dogma is the same. The understanding and the expression of those things are different.

[cnmnancy]

I didn't read the all the posts, but would like to correct something I did read briefly. Eastern Rite Catholics are indeed in union with the Pope of Rome, and they have always been.

[aHendy92]

Beautiful. Deo gratias! Great to see our Eastern (rite) brethren celebrating the Liturgy with such reverence.

[alprasetya]

I'd like to ask, Is there any official language for Byzantine Rite? I mean, in Latin Rite we knew that the official language is Latin. How about in Byzantine Rite?

I just heard some were said in English, but I dunno the rest...

[julianhayda]

@alprasetya well, there are a number of languages found in the latin rite...the traditional is the vernacular, after all, our tradition of communal prayer can't exist if nobody knows what they're praying about. However, Greek is THE byzantine language, often times byzantine and greek are seen as synonymous, a less common name for our rite is the Greek Rite.

[MenechemShaul]

@alprasetya It is completely the language of the region the Church or Community is from. Ukrainian Catholics here in Canada use Ukrainian and English.

[gazoontight]

@alprasetya The "Byzantine rite" is used in a number of ritual churches. It can be heard in Greek, Ukrainian, Rusyn, Arabic, among others.

[npityk1]

The Pope means little to Eastern Catholics???? What about Blessed Basil, whose body in enshrined in Winnepeg, that chose to be arrested by the communists rather than break with Rome and join the Russian Orthodox Church. The Pope means a great deal to Ukrainian Catholics. Remember, Papal infallibility means that the pope is infallible when he declares teaches "ex cathedra" concerning faith and morals. This doctrine does not mean that the pope is perfect.

[deutscheseele]

@npityk1 brilliant comment! I perfectly agree. God Bless you! I'll remember of you at today's Mass.

[aburke673]

This is my Blood which is poured out for you and for many for forgiveness of sins. NOT FOR ALL AS NEW MASS OF PAUL VI IS INVALID BLASPHEMY

[johnross12]

I don't have a clue. It's thankfully fading tradition in the Byzantine Catholic Churches.

It's not our tradition. I don't have a problem with Latins doing it in their churches, but it's their tradition, not ours.

[Ukirocker08]

Lets Unite the Kyivan Churches, put everyone of the Orthodox on the same page, then talk about Universal Unity. There is no other way to do it.

[Ukirocker08]

If you guys want to get really technical, the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church is a direct descendant of the Apostalship of St. Andrew. First, as St. Andrew was on the Kyivan Hills, second, as being founded with the Baptism of Rus which was with the Church of Constantinople. Sorry guys, being a Greek-Catholic is political - we are a separate church who was ripped away from our Orthodox brethren in 1596 so that the Church in Western Ukraine survives a ransack as it happen in Kyiv.

[C2209w]

There has been an important disagreement about the authority of the Pope, specially the juridical authority.

Neverthelles, the documents of the Council of Chalcedon, specially the answer to Pope Leo state cleraly the nature of the "ministery of Peter".

[marleyuf86]

The pope is infallible in terms of faith and morals. He might not be the authoritarian head of the Eastern Catholic Church so they have their own patriarchs to guide them but in terms of defined faith and morals the office of the papacy is infallible.

[MrOleynik]

Who composed this setting. I have sung it before but can`t remember who wrote this beautiful setting.

[julianhayda]

I'm pretty sure it's Arkhangelsky but I could be wrong.

[lionlittle]

do byzantine catholics celebrate benediction of the blessed sacrament?

[julianhayda]

never

[cunjoz]

why not?

[johnross12]

@lionlittle Once upon a time they did, and some older Byzantine Catholic priests still do.

[lionlittle]

@johnross12 I know that in the Roman catholic church, there are prayers such as "Tantum Ergo" and "O Salutaris Hostiam" that are chanted during Benediction. what prayers are said in the eastern rite?

[arthegor]

Greek-Catholic the greatest heresy the tricked one's cause it happened in Transilvania.Nevertheless the faith matter and what you follow.Sorz if i angried someone

[danielgaladza]

This choir is good. It is rare that such choirs still exist in our Church today in North America. May God continue to bless your work.

[C2209w]

May God repair what the sin has destroyed. May he health the wounds of history and the bleeding wounds of hearts. May He with his eternal and inmense mercifulness grant the unity and love to the Church.

[C2209w]

Yes. The Pope holds the service which Xristos bestowed on Peter ("ministerium Petri") and he is the First-among-equals ("primus inter pares"). He is also the Serf of the serfs of God ("servus servorum Dei") and the guarranteer of Unity (as Xristos said to Peter) and in this sense he is Vicar of Christ.

However this Primacy has adopted in the West a terminology totally alien to our Sister Churches.

[thomp610]

It is my understanding that there has always been a disagreement about how much authority the Pope would have and that this goes back to the time of the apostles.  In particular, I understand that Rome did not even recognize Constantinople as a Patriarchate until 701, thereby implicitly rejecting the authority of the Council of Constantinople. The differences back then seem in that regard greater than the differences now but we had communion. What do u think we could do to get that back?

[MrLamontSanford]

Many comments here are indeed mean, and ignorant. The Church is Universal but consists of particular churches, united by faith, sacraments and yes, acknowledging the BIBLICALLY-based concept of Peter as 'first among equals', not in any arrogant or politically powerful way, but in humility, service and charity. The split-away of the Orthodox is a tragedy, because their liturgy is sacred and intact, unlike the modern Roman rite mass (1970 missal), which is a betrayal of holy liturgy.

[jonedelleman]

homiemandude, what you say gives me hope, too. Some of the postings here do not sound very friendly or tolerant. We are all serving our ONE LORD. What divides us are man-made rites. They should not be stronger than the message of love and loyalty to Our Lord.

[karpov89]

Beautiful liturgy. The bishop seems to be very tall, at least 2 meters?

[BigPolishMike14]

I myself being Ukrainian as well as Polish have known from reading the only reason y the Ukrainian Catholic is around today was because when Poland and Lithuania took over the western part of Ukraine the Ukrainians and Rusyns where forced into the catholic church other wise they would be persucuted

[marahbadrian]

Pleasedon't equate the Catholic Church with the Roman Catholic Church. The RCC is just one rite from 20 something rites in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ, our Lord.

[Ukirocker08]

Cardinal was a move by Rome to lessen the status of Patriarch,trust me , our patriarchs do not agree with this title. For the sake of peace, for now, they stay quiet. Yet, one must remeber that Patriarch Lubomyr did not accept the Cardinal Ring from the pope....

[Ukirocker08]

By the way....OUR has been taken out in most parishes......

[Ukirocker08]

I reiterate, we are not part of the Roman Catholic Church. We are an Eastern Church in Communion with Rome. The pope is not supreme pontiff in our church, but an equal to the patriarchs. Read the materials of Patriarch Yosyf Slipyj. He claimed his pariarchal status and this status for our Church.

[benedictineacc]

And yet, Ukirocker, the liturgy prays for "OUR holy ecumenical pontiff, Benedict, the Pope of Rome." Note the OUR. He is the pontiff of the entire church, including the Ukrainian Catholic Church. And by the way, Major Archbishop Cardinal (yes, Cardinal) Josef Slipyj was never a Patriarch, and neither is Husar today. And yes, my mother was Ukriainian Catholic and I studied for the UC priesthood years ago, so I know of what I say.

[Ukirocker08]

You are disrespectng the memory and vision of Patrarch Yosy Slipyj. It isnot the Pope who recognize a patriarch, but its people.

[briu93]

I am sorry but he is the supreme pontiff, he is not an equal to the rest of the patriarchs because in order to be part of the catholic church they must recognize him AS THE VICAR OF CHRIST on earth, the only one to govern the whole church on earth, so the patriarchs succumb to him because he's the Patriarch of Rome descendant from the lineage since Peter the first pope

[Ukirocker08]

It is sad ofhow uninformed and ignorant you are. Every church has an apostolic lineage. Our churchhas a lineage dated back to St. Andrew. This isbased on th fact that St. Adrew spent time in Scythia, in current da Ukraine. Ifthat is not legt enouh, werecived our fath from Constantinople, the 2nd Rome whose lineage comes frm St. Andrew. Roman Catolics see him as a vicar in Christ.

[Ukirocker08]

The Ukainian Greek Catoic Church, in is true stae, does not see him as supreme pontiff, but as ecumenical. There is a difference. We entered into communion. not under power. the head of the church is Christ not the pope, an the Church is its people.

[Stanchev4]

I may be mistaken, then I apologize, but it seems that your words are close to heresy. Do you denounce His Holiness to be the Vicar of Christ? The Popes Primacy? The Papal infallibility?

[julianhayda]

Not to be blunt, but the pope actually means very little to Eastern Catholics. He's more of a symbolic head of the church than an authoritative head. Now, there are some very powerful people that would like for you to think otherwise.

In the early church, all the Patriarchs were equal, then the patriarch of Rome (the pope) decided that he was better than the others.

When it comes to the issue of infallibility, we need to realize that the pope IS just human and IS prone to mistakes as any human

[Chichkabeb]

@julianhayda Since day one, the Bishop of Rome, successor of Peter, was considered by other Patriarchs as superior. the problem concerned not his position, but the extense of his authority. The Patriarchs never had any problem with the Pope heading the Holy Councils (before 1058, of course).

[stevennewnan]

@Chichkabeb No in that my friend you are wrong and have never read the minutes from the Ecumenical Councils.

[johnross12]

@julianhayda As much as Eastern Catholics like deluding themselves into believing the Pope of Rome is just a symbolic head without a primacy of jurisdiction, it simply isn't the case. Just look at the Eastern Code of Canon Law or ask your bishop.

[TenderTrap86]

@johnross12 Yeah, wasn't that a weird comment. Maybe the person who posted this video should take a look at the Greek Catholic martyrs who died for the Roman Catholic faith in Soviet gulags or were forced into exile by the very same athiestic communists. Joseph Slipyj, Theodore Romzha, Alexander Chira, Paul Gojdich, Basil Hopko and the list goes on.

[hiroshi2020]

@julianhayda

The Pope is infallible when speaking Ex Cathedra, remember. But, are you sure that Eastern Catholics see him as just symbolic? All Catholic must see him as the authoritative head! He is the Pope! The Vicar of Christ. He did not just one day decide that he was better than all the other Patriarchs and Bishops. He is the successor of Peter! You can not deny this, do you? (I think I am misinterpreting you)

[TenderTrap86]

@hiroshi2020 Yeah, that's what I said. It seems very strange that a Catholic would say that the pope is just a symbolic head of the Church. By other churches being in communion with him, they are recognizing not only his primacy of honor, but also of juristiction. His power as Vicar of Christ is, therefore, very real to them. So, that statement seems to be quite the absurdity. Why be Catholic?

[hiroshi2020]

@TenderTrap86

Yeah :) God Bless.

[TenderTrap86]

@julianhayda It doesn't matter how Eastern Catholics percieve the Bishop of Rome. He is the Vicar of Christ on earth and successor to St. Peter. His primacy is of honor and juristiction. That's the reality. The Pope has the right to "interfere" with another church's affairs and in another bishop's diocese. So he isn't just a symbolic head, he really is the true head of the Mystical Body of Christ.

[mctav2010]

@julianhayda Your right Julianhayda. The fact is, "Byzantine Catholics" were purchased by the Pope of Rome in a political exchange with country leaders. It is quite sad that our brothers of Orthodoxy are lost and do not realize it.

[Shlomayo]

@julianhayda

This is heresy. The dogmas of the faith bind ALL Catholics.

I am sad to see you still have not repudiated former Eastern "Orthodox" falsehoods.

[nuduaspiaggia]

@julianhayda Incorrect. The pope is above all other patriarchs for he alone holds the keys to heaven through unique Petrine succession.

[npityk1]

@julianhayda Then why did Blessed Vasil, whose body is enshrined in Winnepeg, refuse to become a Russian Orthodox priest when he was given a choice to either leave communion with Rome or be arrested and tortured? The Pope does mean a great deal to Byzantine Catholics! God Bless!

[stevennewnan]

@Stanchev4 julianhayda is correct. The Greek Catholic Churches accept only 7 Ecumenical Councils, accept the Popes authority only in the context "To the perogatives of the Patriarchs" and that granted during the first 1000 years of Christianity. No Filioque, Purgatory, Indulgences, and extra Marian Dogmas or Latin practices are found in the Greek Catholic Churches.

[Stanchev4]

@stevennewnan In that case I appear to be not Grek Catholic, though I was baptised as Greek Catholic and do belong to Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church... I was allways tought that we de accept all the 'latin' dogmas and the Pope as Vicar of Christ. And now it suddenly appears it is wrong? Are there any documents from the Pope, which grant Greek Catholics such large privileges as denouncing dogmas and His infalliability?

[stevennewnan]

@Stanchev4 yes the Patriarchs reply to Vatican1, and the agreements of union made at various Synods with the Latins and the Greeks. No because we teach Theosis they believe in original sin. Thats why most Greek Catholics especially Melkites consider themselves as Orthodox in union with the Pope of Rome.

[Stanchev4]

@stevennewnan Speaking about Greek Catholics as about 'orthodox churches in communion with Rome' is ruther strange to me, as the only true Orthodox Church is Catholic Church. All so-called 'orthodox' churches are corrupt in their faith and should be brought in Union after denouncing their faults and mistakes. This is how I was tought in Greek Catholic Church. But now I see, with sorrow, that many people, who call themselves Greek Catholics, behave more like eastern schismatics...

[stevennewnan]

@Stanchev4 You lack education. Rome is both heretical and schismatic not us. Since when have we changed ANYTHING found in the 7 Ecumenical Councils, the New Testament, or the Creed? We haven't but Rome has. Please study some Ecclesiology and quit drinking the heretical Latin Kool-Aid.

[Stanchev4]

@stevennewnan So, you consider that by formulating 'new' dogmas Rome changed faith? Than armenians are right when blaming 'orthodoxes' in changing the faith by the Chalcedon Council? And arians are also right for denouncing the Nicaean Council? For all the councils added something 'new'. And I believe that each dogma helps us to understand God better.

[stevennewnan]

@Stanchev4 WRONG! There is no Theological difference between us and the Oriental Orthodox. The faith is the same, only the wording is different. You can't equate heretics with infalliable Church Ecumenical Councils.The Councils only defined dogma, not created it so there were no "new" dogmas. These were always in response to devision in the universal Church.

[Stanchev4]

@stevennewnan You are wrong. What you call 'defining dogmas' is also relevant to Councils of the Catholic Church, such as I and II Vatican. Everything Catholic Church believes existed in works of Fathers of the Undivided Church. All these 'new dogmas' are not new at all. Though, you would of course disagree. The only reason I see for this scism - political. Eastern orthodox churches are parts of governmental machines since Byzantium Empire. Church must be free from states, as Vatican is.

[stevennewnan]

@Stanchev4 Hey the Vatican is a city state! Papal infallibility, purgatory, indulgences, and the western view of sin are all NEW dogmas. Anselm of Canterbury formulated the Roman Catholic view of sin and redemption with heavy Augustinian influence in the 13th Century. Also there was a mistranslation in the Vulgate from the Greek that Rome later built it's doctrine of original sin on which ALL eastern Churches both Orthodox and Catholic reject.

[Stanchev4]

@stevennewnan Yes, Vatican is city-state. So what? It gives the church full independence from anyone. Poor orthodoxes have no and thus their oppinion is too close to governmental. I can understand them: everybody want to eat tasty things, even patriarchs... :))) As of infalliability, I see no sin in it. Indulgences existed even in eastern churches. Purgatory is acceptable in East as theologumen at least (remember the Visions of St. Theodora). So, I see no differences, only politics.

[stevennewnan]

@Stanchev4 You lack education in matters of faiyh and ecclesiology. The eastern churches have NEVER had indulgences not even most in union with Rome, secondly no one Patriarch speaks for us Orthodox, all Patriarchs are equal, thirdly your use of Theodora is very, wrong, you are confused about the Roman Catholic view of Purgatory and the Orthodox view of repose of the soul.

[Stanchev4]

@stevennewnan Well, I can word off that this is you, who lacks education in questions of faith, so let's not quarrel. I tell you the Catholic view on the matter and I now that orthodoxes have another one. Though you should learn the question better. First of all, there were indulgences: search info for greek apheseis and sygchorochartia.

[Stanchev4]

@stevennewnan Second, I know all your patriarchs are equall. And all of them depend on their own governments. Maybe that's why orthodoxes are unable to hold even one 'all-orthodox council'. I think it characterises your churches from not very good point of view. Though, it is my most humble opinion. And please, don't tell me that orthodoxes don't need such council - it is a lie.

[Stanchev4]

@stevennewnan And third. No, I don't think that my usage of Theodora's visions is wrong. Though, I do understand why it shocks you so much. I only want to remind, that such things as Papal Primacy, purgatory, etc. in orthodox churches are theologumens. It means that you may believe it or not - your church just has no single opinion on them. But these are definitly NOT heresy.

[stevennewnan]

@Stanchev4 Also there are no more than 7 Ecumenical Councils so your later Roman Catholic Synods aren't Ecumenical, infalliable, nor inspired. If the seperation of Churches was political only we'd be one Church again by now, but we aren't. We've maintained the Apostolic faith, Rome hasn't. Rome must repent of her heresy. As Nicea II and Chalcedon both point out Rome is first because it was the Capital of the Empire followed by Constantinople because it was the New Capital.

[Stanchev4]

@stevennewnan All Councils of Holy Catholic Church are considered Ecumenical Councils and are accepted as such by Greek Catholics. The question of separation IS political and stays such because nowdays politics determines the mind of people even more than ever. Rome was always first not because it was capital, but because of St.Peter. And Constantinopolis had no right even to be second, again, it was political decision. I can understand your point of view, but as Greek Catholic can't accept it

[stevennewnan]

@Stanchev4 I'm not a Catholic period but Orthodox.

[Stanchev4]

@stevennewnan By the way, I don't quite understand who are you. You tell that OUR faith (I understand - Greek Catholic, right?) is of no difference with oriental orthodoxes. But you claim Rome to be heretical! Than what do you do in Greek Catholic church, which accepts all these 'heresys' and Pope as it's head (remember, who appoint Greek Catholic patriarchs or metropolytans as cardinals?)! Why are you not in some orthodox church? I don't understand...

[stevennewnan]

@Stanchev4 Im not a Greek Catholic but an Antiochian Orthodox you moron. Secondly our Patriarchs depend on no government. I guess the Roman Curia is made up as well. Yes Rome is heretical but Rome has only approved the Melkite Patriarchs since their schism from us in 1724 not appointed. Also there has been 4 large Synods since 1054 my friend.Also the Latin dogmas you mentioned aren't Theologumens, they are heresy, the Assumption is a theologumen. SMH.

[Stanchev4]

@stevennewnan Than you should talk more clear. And, by the way, why are you trying to insult me? Firstly, it is absolutely vain. Secondly, it is not very Christian of you. :)) I know about your 'large synods'. But I mean synods after the fall of Byzantium when your churches became 'independent' as you call them. Why such syndos are not held? Not theologumens, you say? Are you shure? I hope you found info on greek orthodox indulgences?

[Stanchev4]

@stevennewnan As of other questions of faith, there are some differences in language (Latin therminology vs Greek), which can lead to misunderstanding. Nevertheless, I hope orthodoxes one day will confess in their sin of pride and return to Christ.

[hiroshi2020]

@Stanchev4

Now, we can't say that they are all pride.

[Stanchev4]

@hiroshi2020 Agree. But they very often lack ability to understand arguments. I hope one day it will end, and we'll be united.

[stevennewnan]

@Stanchev4 We understand your arguements just fine. I just won't continue to argue about the Latin Churches innovations like the Filioque, purgatory, Papacy, and Infallability. If you'd just look up Melkite Catholic Church in Wikipedia it gives a very concise view of the Antiochian Uniates. I will continue to profess the faith of the Apostles unchanged unlike Rome and the Protestants.

[hiroshi2020]

@hiroshi2020 *proud

[darkwinter76]

@Stanchev4 the pope is not infallable, he is not the Vicar of Christ, he covers up child molestors, the whole idea of the office is way off of what Christ would have wanted. He is deceiving many.

[briu93]

Ur church belonged to the Catholic church and split and then came back into communion, and EVEN the apostles acknowledged that Peter was chosen first Pope, that to go along with your comment, you should just like St. Andrew also show humility and accept that the pope is the head of the church on Earth, him being the the Bishop of Rome not some other Patriarch, because even before the split many of the eastern churches had, who did their patriarchs and bishops follow, the Pope(Bishop of Rome)

[Ukirocker08]

Our beliefs cannot have both thrological thought of the East and West becuse we as "orthodox" christians believe in the true orthodox faith, not one based on papal decisions. Also, some of the teaching of the west contradict the ones in the east. I am a student of our Church and am well read in this subject. Read "the Self Governing Kyivan Church" by Fr. Monchak for the starting part for the Unification of Ukrainian Churches.

[Ukirocker08]

This being said. Our Martyrs did not die for Catholocism as people thinl, they dies for the Ukrainian Church. These Types of Martyrs were also part of the Ukrainian Autocepholous Orthodox Church in Western Ukraine also. They died for Ukrainian Christianity and for the Ukrainian Nation., Not for the Union with Rome. Those that were part of the undergrund UGCC were the basis for the preservation of the Ukrainian Language and Culture. They died for a higher cause than catholocism....

[Ukirocker08]

First off. We are part of a Kyvan Church which is currently divided in 4 parts, the UAOC, the UOC-MP, the UOC-KP, and the UGCC. We all come from the same root. I am basing my comments on history. The Pseudo-SObor of 1946 was not a Ecclesiastic desision, but a decision of the SOviet regime and a Rusian Church Run by the KGB. It had nothing to do with being Catholic or Orthodox and was not even a canonical move.

[Zaynaq]

"Its time for the Greek_Catholics to learn how to be Orthodox Chrstians, not a sect of the Roman Catholic Church. We are not a Rite but a branch of the divided Ukraine Orthodox Church."

"Ukraine's orthodox churches unite as one autocepholous canonical Church, it is the Greek-Catholic Church's turn to atach to this union and return to the chucrch as it was before 1596."

I am just curious brother, who has taught you these things? Do you live in Chicago?

[Ukirocker08]

Our theoplogy is about the ressurected Christ, not the suffering and Humanity of Christ. Thank goodness there is a Seminary system within our church which is making corrections and graduationg seminarians with true eastern thought. Its time for the Greek_Catholics to learn how to be Orthodox Chrstians, not a sect of the Roman Catholic Church. We are not a Rite but a branch of the divided Ukraine Orthodox Church.

[Zaynaq]

"Our theoplogy is about the ressurected Christ, not the suffering and Humanity of Christ."

Can't both theologies be in the same Church, the same universal Church? You know the Catholic one you and I are in?

[Ukirocker08]

The thing that get me is that if one is so "pro unia" then read the Union of brest. The bishopd did not agree to celebrate "corus christi" or accept the dod mas of the Pope, which would included celebrating the "Immaculate Conception: when in realit it is the Conception of Anne.

[Zaynaq]

I have the read the Union of Brest (I have an English print out of it), not that it matters my branch re-joined later at the Union of Ungvár.

"We are not a Rite but a branch of the divided Ukraine Orthodox Church."

but if this is true then why you Ukrainians just go with the Council of Lvov in 1946?

To me such a pro Eastern-Orthodox attitude brings dishonor to the very holy martyrs who died under Soviet oppression for the Greek-Catholic Church and the true Orthodox Faith in union with Rome.

[Ukirocker08]

Further more, we are Orthodox in Communion with Rome. Once Ukraine's orthodox churches unite as one autocepholous canonical Church, it is the Greek-Catholic Church's turn to atach to this union and return to the chucrch as it was before 1596. Unfrtunately over time, our priests and laymen have been latinized and have been taught "incorrect" theology when it comes to our eastern faith.

[richard50000]

but TEY ARE CATHOLIC!!! Byzantine rite,attached to Rome.Ignorant!

[julianhayda]

it is (supposed to be) its own patriarchate though, we are allies with rome, not under the authority of rome.

and, in fact, we are closer to the orthodox church than we are to the latin rite. the only difference between the ukrainian greek catholics and the ukrainian orthodox are their alliances with rome, something which i belive is harmful to the unique integrity of our church's tradition which has sustained for much longer than the "catholic mass" (try 1,700 years)

[Zaynaq]

i am greek-catholic, i don't understand... you would rather break with the Holy See of Rome for the Ukrainian Orthodox? While we are autonomous with our own bishops when it comes down to it our loyalty is to the supreme bishop of the eternal city

I would rather die than break the holy unia with Old Rome, as many holy martyrs died for the Greek-Catholic Faith before me

[Ukirocker08]

First off, Old Rome has nothing to do with us. secondly, it is not proper to have a divided nation becasue of religion. The Unia was signed for political reason, not becasue the bishops wanted to be catholic. ....

[advokatrj]

Might I suggest that you read Archbishop Vsevolod's work "We are all Brothers?"

[E3Harrison]

we are not all brothers, Catholics are Heretics and Schismatics and are not Brothers and Sisters in the faith with True Brothers and Sister of the Orthodox Faith.

[homiemandude]

we, in fact, are all brothers. an orthodox church recently asked their bishop if they could lend our Ukrainian catholic church for a funeral. their bishop and our bishop agreed and it has been done. 20 years ago, none of this would have been possible. it is the work of the holy spirit, wanting all the churches to be unified once again.

[E3Harrison]

Canon LXV of the Holy Apostles:

"If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."

[orzech86]

Prekrasno!

[snowboarderdude]

Nice, whatta' beautiful "ikonastas"! It must be the Cathedral in that area?

[julianhayda]

Nope, just another parish celebrating its 50th anniversary.

It is however, the second largest (and soon largest) parish in our eparchy as we have had a massive influx of immigrant members into our community over the past four years.

It is not uncommon to see "standing room only" every Sunday at our parish.