I dont have a paragraph to write or anything. I just have to say I'm looking forward to many more moments of Arthur casually kissing Gwen on the cheek in season 5
cont'd...phobic, and fed up with people stating their limited knowledge as fact. The fact that he has been trying to push his Merthur agenda for years is why I directed him to two beautifully portrayed homosexual relationships as opposed to trying to push his agenda on a heterosexual friendship.
@snet819 Why shouldn't he (or she) prefer the Arthur Merlin relationship on screen? Why shouldn't he 'push it for years'? I assume you've been pushing the demand that people love A/G for that long? If people don't like what you like, they can't express their opinion and have to stop watching and go and watch something for which you feel they're suitable? Is that really what you mean to say?
@avanta83 Well you are wrong a few fronts. I don't care what you want to believe I care that it is demeaning to men and fuels homophobia to say that if two men are close and willing to show affection for one another they are gay. This questioned was posed to Bradley Colin Julian and Johnny all have said the characters aren't gay. So why the need to push the theory and use lies to do so. What does it mean that Bradley shared your opinion?
@snet819 I don't see anywhere GP says Arthur and merlin are gay. I thought he/ she said he or she DIDNT believe that. But if people want to slash characters why shouldn't they? I don't think many (any?) people believe it would be brought in screen in the homophobic culture we live in? Bradley said in interviews before S4 that Guinevere would end up with Lancelot and Arthur (in a different way) with Merlin. (Im paraphrasing). He also said A and G were a political marriage as I remember.
@avanta83 I wont debate gatepromise with you...been reading his b/s for years. Because they are not their characters to /. Yes because like you he didn't realize there are other versions and the writers were/are free to pursue any route they wanted. Hope u r paraphrasing again as he said it could be viewed as a political marriage...but was it? NO...he gave up lands to reject a political marriage only to marry a woman who was slut shamed...now that's LOVE. Disney? Turn the channel.
@snet819 Bradleys view of the relationship is shaped by the legends he loves. Thats clear. The show has turned the A/G/L thing into a romance for children. And A and G are more Shrek and Fiona than anything else. But each to their own and all that. I certainly wouldn't argue that the writers are invested in A/G to the point that they trash Arthurs character as a man raised to put his kingdom before all else. But who cares - its Disney, right? I stick up for Gp because I hate bullying. Simple.
@avanta83 Then you stick up for a bully...This is a family show...so again there was Camelot...but that didn't do so well did it? Again...if A/G don't suit your taste don't watch...or better yet write your version and stop trying to tear down this version.
@snet819 GP wasn't doing any bullying Snet. You're the one hurling insults and trying to silence debate. And there you go again. I'll watch the show if I want - and for other things than A/G but if I don't like A/G I'll say so. Free country and all that.
@avanta83 again your opinion. I never tried to silence debate just shed light on your untruths and his motives. I can understand how that could be troubling...maybe he'll email you some of the links he has to interviews he has taken out of context or some of the foul things he has said about Angel/Gwen in the fast...either way I could care less he knows and I know what he has posted in the past and what his agenda is. I've not said one thing that isn't true.
@snet819 My untruths? is this really how you debate? Cant you be reasonable and put your points forward in a civil manner rather than misrepresenting the things other people say? can't you accept that other people might see things differently without having foul motives? I would say that your methods would certainly silence debate unless people are prepared to put up with being browbeaten and called names. I called it bullying and to my eyes it is.
@avanta83 Dear me. Yes untruths. It is not true that Guinevere and Lancelot always have an affair. You stated it as a fact...that makes it untrue. Notice I didn't call you a liar. I don't know that you were intentionally spreading an untruth but untruth it is. If you are feeling brow beaten try arguing from your opinion as opposed to stating your beliefs as facts.
@snet819 THis is like groundhog day. Accusing someone of propagating 'untruths' is accusing them of lying. Perhaps you meant to imply I was mistaken? Thats a different and more polite thing to say. I repeat though that every major account in medieval legend has them as lovers. Every one. You say you've found some obscure ones that don't. But you seem to agree that the G/L romance is the iconic one in classic Arthurian legend - so really aren't you ignoring the main point?
@snet819 Sorry I just noticed 'they are not their characters to slash'? With respect they are. They're anyones characters to slash (with a disclaimer) as I understand it. You could just as easily say Guinevere and Lancelot are not Shine's characters to mess with either.
@avanta83 NO they are not their characters to /...unless in fanfiction. Like it or not...the creators haven't messed with the characters of GWEN and LANCE. Gwen is still married to Arthur...Gwen still loved both. And just as in varying versions (no ones fault you don't know of what you speak) she doesn't have an affair with Lance.
@snet819 Hang on. If you're going to patronise me show me the references. I know all the major legends but you're going to show me the one where 'lance' is in love with arthur and the one where Arthur is telling lance to impregnate 'gwen'. Once characters are out there people can do what they want with them as Shine are proving.
WHY DO THEY KEEP CUTTING MORGANA'S SCENES!!!???!??!?!?!!? AAARRGH!!!!! SO ANGRY!!!! That one with her and Lancelot was really sweet, you actually saw a bit of humanity in her. They seem to just want to make a once multifaceted character into a one dimensional, stereotypical villain. It really annoys me!
Haha, I'm one of the extras in the Hogs Head that you glimpse for a split-second as she walks in. They left a bit out later on where Morgana walks back out of the pub, one of the extras grabs her hand and she breaks his wrist with magic. Pity... :)
Some of us were thinking it was creepy of Merlin to be there but if they had added this scene between Arthur and Merlin everything would have been clear. Arthur actually wanted Merlin to be there during proposal because he wanted him to be there.
The whole series revolves around Arthur and Merlin's relationship, but God forbid if every Merthur scene doesn't get put in. They have to develop A/G it's part of the canon/story of the show, stop getting pissy just because you prefer one over the other.
@MelinaPendulum But A/G ISN'T canon! Have you never read the legends??? They were never in love! it was an arranged marriage and she and Lancelot were the ones in love. The fact that the show keeps pushing the A/G so very desperately even though the lack of chemistry is so painfully obvious is just sad. They have to play it up so big, with all the sunbeams and the violin orchestrations, and they wouldn't have to if it was anywhere near believable!
@gatepromise Yes, I have read the legends, which is why I know that in the older versions of the legends Gwen and Arthur were happily married, had children and Gwen never had feels for or cheated with Lancelot. But I'm sure you must know that.
Chemistry is subjective, so you are free not to like it, but I personally think that they have plenty of chemistry and since everything in this show has levels of corniness to it, I accept the sunbeams along with all the innuendo of Merthur :)
@MelinaPendulum In all of the legends except for the Grail romance titled Perlesvaus, Arthur and Gwen had no children. In some of the legends, such as the Welsh triad, Arthur had 3 queens. The Knight of the Cart is probably the first time Lancelot and Guinivere are lovers, and that is a VERY VERY old legend. The point is that saying A/G in love is "canon" makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And I'd be fine w/them being in love on the show if I could actually believe they were!
@gatepromise Yes and all three of his queens were named Gwen in some form or another. A/G in love is canon in some of the tales, just because they are not the popular ones does not make it not true. You don't have to LIKE it, but just because it doesn't work the way you want does not make it less canon.
@MelinaPendulum You've missed the point, which is that they were often NOT IN LOVE in the legends. As was the custom of the time, theirs was an arranged marriage.I can cite 100 more instances where they were not in love, but I think you know that too. This sappy, sterile, silly, Disney-esque romance of the show is contrived, convoluted, non-organic, and had no time to actually make it believable. One minute he didnt know she existed, the next it was twu wuv. It sucks the air out of every scene!
@gatepromise And you've missed my point, just because more times they weren't in love does not make the times that they were in love null-and-void. Many things in this show are changed from the fundamental of the legend. Having just finished series 2 of Merlin of the list of poorly written things on the show A/G is not even as bad as I've heard. If you don't like them as a couple, that is perfectly valid because it's your opinion, I think they are fine for what the show is.
@MelinaPendulum Then why would you say it's canon, then? There is no canon! How about the version of the legends where Arthur had illigit kids while he was married to Gwen--and not just with Morgan, either! That's how off the beaten track the idea of this Harlequin-romance-for-13-year-old-girls "romance" this show presents is. The writers have done a very poor job of presenting it, and if they totally copped out about the A/G/L triangle--why present it at all if they were going to mangle it.
@gatepromise Then if there is no canon then did you say that A/G isn't canon? They had to present the A/GL triangle because it's popular, people expect it to play out a certain way and when Lancelot died in the first episodes of season 4, people were complaining about not having the love triangle. I think the romance between A/G is fine, it's very typical of courtly love in the way the corniness of it is played up and I understand the attraction to each other. It's a matter of taste
@MelinaPendulum I said it isn't canon because it isn't canon! There is no canon!!!! Royal marriages of that time were ALWAYS arranged. And if the love as shown on the show could actually convince me, I wouldn't mind, but when they have Gwen always saying she wants to be Arthur's queen--not his WIFE, his QUEEN--I remain unconvinced. Even Bradley James is not a supporter of the romance as depicted--and I think it shows. It's telling when someone intimately involved doesn't like the depiction.
@gatepromise So if there is no canon then what is the problem? I think that people are gasping straws when she says that she wants to be Arthur's queen, I mean in the same breathe she also says she loves him and that he means everything to her. I won't say that there are no problems with the way they have been written, there are, but some of the opposing shippers make them opinion seem like fact. You prefer Merthur to Arwen, fine, but that does not make them horrible.
@MelinaPendulum The problem is that you claimed, at the beginning of this discussion, that they are canon. I also think that there has been a lot of times showing how much Gwen likes to advise and be in control of things--that whole "I want to be your Queen" thing may mean something, or it would if the writing had any depth. Likewise, Arthur waxes and wanes about his commitment to her and what he's willing to do for her, and they never show them working things out or dealing with any of it.
@gatepromise By canon I wasn't talking about the myths, I was talking about the in-show context. I will agree that Arthur does go up and down, but he also does that in his relationship to Merlin. They go from being close one episode to very status-quo in the other. So I think that is a problem with how the writers write the relationships, not specifically just Arwen
@gatepromise LOL "Guinevere likes to be in control of things?" What show are you watching? Did it escape you somehow that Arthur felt insecure and inadequate when he became king? He leaned far too heavily on Agravaine and didn't trust his own gut feelings? Do you think he was happy about breaking it off (even temporarily) with Guinevere? What do you think that whole "controlled aggression" thing was about? Why do you think he told M to give G his ring if he died in combat?
@MelinaPendulum I'm interested in this. If they introduced the A/G/L triangle because its popular (as it is indeed - its one of the most iconic parts of the legend) and people expected it to play out a certain way, why did they *totally* change it? This is the only major part of the legend they have changed - they toy with other things but they don't change the essential direction of the legend. Neutering and infantilising the triangle is a massive alteration to the legends they are using.
@MelinaPendulum I do think that since the most popular, the most well known, and the majority of Arthurian legend has Gwen most often Arthur's friend and helpmate but not as his one true love, that it does lend a bit more creedence to the idea that the show has really gone off the rails with their over the top "end all and be all" romance they are trying to force upon the audience, but whatever. If they had spent the time to show a convincing relationship unfold, I might feel differently.
@gatepromise I feel they have shown their relationship unfold in as realistic as they can. I just feel that because people prefer Merthur to Arwen they keep trying to make it seem like Arwen is ruining the show when in reality it is doing no such thing. I've gotten people into the show BECAUSE of Arwen. You want to talk about what's ruining the show, how about the poor ways female characters or written or the inconsistencies in characters/writing. Those are problems.
@MelinaPendulum I've seen more people puke over Arwen than be drawn in by it, but whatever. But I do agree with you about the horrible, shallow way women are portrayed on the show. The only 2 regular female characters are either 100% evil or 100% good, no realistic in between.
@gatepromise lol, I know it's not the fan-preferred couple, but those outside of the internet fandom have liked it. I personally don't care if people don't like Arwen are not as long as they don't use arguments about it not being like the legend or bashing Angel due to her race. I don't think Arwen is perfect, but the actors performances make me enjoy it. I actually like Arthur, Gwen as people so them being happy makes me happy.
@MelinaPendulum please don't buy into his bitterness that Arthur and Merlin are straight. The Merthur fandom may be loud but it's not large. The Arthur/Gwen eps are some of the highest rated and look at which scenes and get the most views on utube. If you are not gay a bigot or stupid enough to think Arthur/Morgana was ever going to happen then you've know since s1e1 that Arwen was happening.
@gatepromise Why are more people puking over Arwen? What are their reasons? And this is a serious question. Because that is an inflammatory and rather childish remark.
@gatepromise I don't care what Bradley James likes or doesn't like. His opinion has no bearing on the role he is being paid to play. I will give him props because he's a good actor. If he has any problems they don't show in his work.
@Celithrathien Sorry if I enter the discussion without being requested, I never heard BJ said he doesn't like A/G (I'm not in the fans stuff), I don't find hard to believe it though, since he doesn't actually manage to put any real passion in his moments with AC. I find the lack of chemistry between the two (good) actors painfully blatant from both part. I think they just don't work together and they are not supported by a dull writing. Personal opinion. Feel free to disagree.
@parisad You are entitled to your opinion but mine differs greatly. Bradley plays love sick in my opinion better than Angel even though she is clearly the stronger actor. Their love scenes sizzle in my opinion. It's what got me hooked. BTW...gatepromise is delusional. He is taking things Bradley said out of context and using it to feed his own warped needs. Bradley doesn't want Arthur defined by the romance and most of his comments were from a perspective of the legends.
@MelinaPendulum How could Arthur banishing Gwen, hugging Gwen, then telling her to buzz off, and then, with no discussion/working out/resolution, marrying her seem in any way, shape or form "realistic" to you? Makes no sense whatsoever. It's childish, fairy tale, unconvicincing, and that would be fine if that's all the show was, but it isn't--there are times when it has demonstrated brilliant sophistication. It's just the romance that seems to be push relentlessly with no thought of believable!
@gatepromise I'm not talking solely about season 4, but since we are talking about that: Arthur regretted his decision to banish Gwen right after he did it. When he hugged her he was just injured and was probably caught in the moment of seeing her. Him taking her back was the result of seeing Isolde die and realizing that he wanted to be with Gwen while they could still be together in life. Hence the rush to marry. Is it perfect? No, but it's typical Merlin.
@gatepromise What specific incidents are you talking about and what context did they happen in? There is cause and effect to consider even in TV shows. I think it's childish and unconvincing to say Arthur & Guinevere's romance is the thing that's wrong with Merlin simply because you don't like it, and harping on the "relentless push" of their romance when I have yet to see that in 4 seasons.
@gatepromise The real problem is you and always has been. You are bent and it has colored your perception of Arwen since the beginning. Canon was that Arthur fell for Gwen at first sight. Despite Merlin warning him of her future betrayal. You however have since season 1 been on line talking down Arwen using any excuse but the truth. Arthur is not gay. He loves Gwen...she loves him...after 4 seasons get over it or stop watching. Try Spartacus...they offer what you need.
@snet819 And the homophobes come out to play! I've never said Arthur is gay. All I've ever said (since season 2, because I didn't start watching the show until midpoint s2), was that Arthur and Gwen as depicted do not work and aren't believable. Their relationship is inorganic, manufactured, stilted, childish, sterile, and one dimensional. I've come to like the Gwen character very much, just not when she is in the same room as Arthur because they have exactly 0 chemistry and came out of blue.
@gatepromise I'm not homophobic, just calling you out. Your bitterness is about Arwen. Yet since she spoke to Merlin in the stocks it was clear she fancied Arthur and it was clear that he had feelings for her once he showed up at her house after her fathers death. That's a pretty slow build if you ask me but yes once he fell, he fell hard...happens everyday. So what are you really bitter about...it's your agenda. Watch Glee or s1 of Spartacus. Lovely ships to meet your needs.
@snet819 Thats a deeply offensive comment. If you're so sure of your argument you shouldn't have to sink to the level of personal abuse, should you? This is a TV programme and people ARE allowed to have differing views on it without getting insults thrown at them. Gatepromise is entitled to post her/his opinions on this show without getting browbeaten even if he/she dares not to like what you like.
@avanta83 gatepromise is a troll and has been for years. He has posted some of the most foul disgusting comments imaginable. He and you are welcome to your opinions but neither of you are welcome to your own facts...to think you are is well...delusional and if that fact bothers you sorry.
@snet819 As far as I can see gate promise out forward opinions on a TV programme without any personal insults at all far less the homophobic stuff you're hurling about. You on the other hand seem to feel that anyone who doesn't share your adoration of your favoured TV romance deserves to be called delusional, twisted, bent and a troll. The idea of reasoned debate seems to have passed you by - anyone who disagrees with you is' delusional'
@avanta83 Actually I've only called gatepromise those things because for at least two years he has showed himself to be such. What I said about you and him both is that if you substitute opinion for fact it is delusional. Like it is a fact that Gwen does not always have an affair with Lance...it is a fact that in one telling they only sleep together at Arthur's request as he could not get her pregnant. Changing the topic won't change the facts. I'm not homophobic...just gatepromise
@snet819 then you may want to rethink the way you phrase things. You sound as if you think gate promise is a gay man and is therefore incapable of having an opinion on the AG romance that is not twisted and delusional. That's not cool.I think you'll find too that I haven't changed the topic - just addressed it elsewhere. Guinevere (not Gwen) and Lancelot (not Lance) are the iconic romance of classic Arthurian legend. Thats a fact.
@avanta83 while I disagree with you your opinions are valid. Much has been changed in Merlin. I love that Gwen has been reclaimed. Most scholars disagree with Monmouth portraying her as an adulteress. She was in legend a devoted spouse. This Gwen was not likely to have an affair who knows why Lance was written off, but with them marrying the way they did it is much more likely they can now introduce an affair...even if it is not with Lance.
@snet819 Thanks for saying so. Since Guinevere is a legendary figure I don't really see why scholars would disagree with her portrayal by Monmouth. Certainly he began the idea that she was unfaithful but until Monmouth, she was a secondary figure at best. A passive figure who was rescued a lot. The medieval legends took her front of stage and brought the Arthurian legends to life. Theres a reason these are the legends everyone knows today, and a reason they're the ones Shine choose to use. tbc
@avanta83 Doesn't matter what you see. Scholars have been studying Arthurian legend for centuries...doesn't matter that she was a minor character...she was not viewed as an adulteress until monmouth. Yes because they are the easiest to read and best align with our romantic views. I happen not to like misogyny and am again...thrilled Gwen has been reclaimed...for the moment.
@snet819 Yes they have but Guinevere (not Gwen) is a character in literature not a person. Until Monmouth and Chretien almost none of the features we now all recognise in Arthuria legend appeared either.To say you don't like misogyny therefore you don't want to see a female character in legend/literature behaving badly is interesting.
@snet819I assume then that you approve of the portrayal of gwen in the BBC show as Perfect in all things - a character without any flaw? the only other main female is Evil. Only Arthur and Merlin are allowed 3 dimensions - flaws as well as good features. To me personally thats more misogynistic than allowing 'Gwen' to be a good person with some human failings.
@avanta83 Gwen is not perfect and is 3 dimensional. She is a good person but not perfect. Neither is Morgana wholly evil. That you can't or don't see subtlety is your issue. But Gwen's willingness to put others needs above her own is a flaw. Morgana's feelings for those who stand in her way is humanizing. I said I don't want to see a faithful wife turned into an Eden destroying harlot. Not quite the same thing.
@snet819 Gwen's willingness to put others needs first isn't a flaw. Its yet another sign of perfection. She HAS no human flaws. They couldn't even allow her to be tempted by lancelot- they had to enchant her. She is completely 2 dimensional. Morgana was happily enjoying torture, ordering crops to be burned so children would starve & making men fight to the death for a crust... they've turned her into a cartoon villain. An eden destroying harlot or someone who fell in love? There's a difference.
@avanta83 Psychology says it's a flaw...sorry if again facts conflict with your own personal reality. She was tempted by Lance...until he gifted her to Arthur in a show of chivalry. Yes and she has shown regret at the choices she feels she is forced to make. No sorry their is no difference. While it is reasonable to fall in love with someone other than your husband...that doesn't mean you act on it. When there are stories that depict men as being the cause of sin I'll agree with u
@snet819 I think you have a very much more absolutist view of human behaviour than I do which is possibly why Perfect! Gwen appeals to you so much. People make mistakes. Theres also the fact that perfect people make poor drama. And this is meant to be drama. Maybe the medieval legends have lasted so long because the protagonists were so flawed.
@avanta83 Should not your desire to play fast and loose with the truth trouble you. Google Arthurian writers. Again you attempt to twist truth. I don't have an absolutest view of anyone or thing. I'm not the one saying that because my expectations of the portrayal of fictional characters is different that I expected it's blasphemy...you are.
@snet819 You're going to have to explain that. Google `Arthurian writers for what reason? Would you please stop insulting me? Cant you debate win a rational manner? I don't think I ever used the word blasphemy. But I seem to have in your head.
@snet819 I admit I don't quite get your last sentence but i interests me. You don't mind showing men being the cause of adultery, just women? Well in that case... lancelot was just as much to blame in the legends. Arthur trusted him and he loved arthur as Guinevere love Arthur. Their one huge flaw was their passion for each other. Great dramatic storyline.
@avanta83 Okay...this is becoming a little trying. Only Gwen was wedded to Arthur. Lance didn't break his oath to Arthur as his oath was different. You do realize that Arthurian legend is just another take on Adam and Eve as recorded by Monmouth and followed up on by manly male authors. So sure it's drama...drama born of the original myth that put woman at the center of mans falls from grace.
@snet819 You're right it is becoming trying. :p Do you believe that a friend and knight who betrays his king isn't also guilty? lancelot also broke an oath and he betrayed his king. Yes I agree that its based on the idea of weak woman destroying man, but that was the way the medieval mind saw it. Marie de France was just as bad and she was a woman. I can that you don't like it and i can even see why, but my position is that it IS the iconic legend.
@avanta83 Yes I'm well aware of ur point but it is moot. I'm not saying that L/G is not iconic. I am saying that Merlin's portral is valid and nothing new in writing or film, Had you known that maybe you would not be so disgusted. BTW u r also arguing that because they r iconic it was blasphemous to not portray l/g end game. I'm saying they could have gone either route, I'm happy they didn't turn a role model into an adulteress. Surely the slut shaming was enough worse really.
@snet819 You accept that G/L was the iconic romance, but because 1 film set in Roman Britain didn't use it, that makes trashing it 'canon'? I have never said it was blasphemous. Its not MY religion. Ive said that the producers veered drastically from the core iconic legend in this one case, presumably to satisfy people like your good self. It seems we agree after all. You see Gwen as a role model? I begin to understand why you like how boringly perfect they've made her.
@snet819 The 'slut shaming' was ridiculous and thats because they tried to pretend they were using the triangle when they were actually running away from it. Thus they used the reaction of a King to an adulterous queen - totally disproportionate to the 'crime' Gwen was seen to commit. They treated the betrothed Gwen who runs around unchaperoned and always spent a lot of time in Arthurs chambers alone, like a betrothed medieval bride. It was ludicrous and Arthur's characterisation paid the price.
@CaptainArdee The betrothed bride of a medieval queen would be chaperoned to within an inch of her life. She wouldn't be allowed to spend time alone with the king in his bedchamber and she wouldn't be able to wander into other mens tents. The idea that Gwen who has/had complete freedom to suit the show caught kissing another man would be suddenly treated like a cloistered princess who'd strayed and whose virginity could therefore no longer be guaranteed isn't too believable imo.
@CaptainArdee They used the set up of the original triangle to pretend they were following it - but while adulterous queen found in flagrante would have merited the banishment scene, treating still unmarried go-where-you-please Not Queen Gwen snogging Lancelot like that just felt ridiculous and made Arthur look like a tyrant. Snog another man rather than marry me? You're banished and be thankful I dont execute you. Didnt do a thing for Noble Arthur but I doubt we were meant to ask questions.
@snet819 Its a bit like as `i said elsewhere replaying Romeo and Juliet in West Side Story and deciding the audience would really prefer a happy ending. So having Romeo actually in love with the girl his parents wanted for him. Its rewriting fictional characters for sure, but it kind of removes their powerful dramatic point. I repeat perfect characters make for poor drama. Human weakness has always been what fuels it.
@snet819 I seriously doubt they'll introduce an affair now though - they went to great lengths to make sure they could continue running the A/G romance as a kind of Disney princess thing (IMO) which is regrettable. I say this as someone who has great respect for the acting abilities of Bradley and Angel- I think they and Santiago could have pulled off something spectacular. Angel especially could have really got her teeth into the torture of loving two people, and the guilt of betrayal.
@avanta83 I'm sorry but isn't delusion to believe something to be which isn't. Early on Gatepromise insisted that Bradley hated Angel and disliked the character Gwen...neither thing is true yet he believed it and did you not state as fact that Lance and Gwen ALWAYS have an affair, I assume you believe it...so if you and he believe these things and they are not true is that not delusion? It's not an insult its a condition...in this case treated with the truth.
@snet819. I can't see anywhere GP says Bradley hates Angel or Gwen, simply that he's not that keen on the AG romance. Please show me where. I said that Lancelot and Guinevere fell in love and had an affair in every version of the legend in which he and she share the stage. Thats true as far as I know - certainly its true of all the major legends which is why the romance lives on today. Its certainly true of the iconic ones the show pretends to be retelling. That is not delusional. Its true.
@snet819 Bradley also clearly shares my 'delusion' because he very clearly expected the triangle to happen, with Guinevere more in love with Lancelot than Arthur. He's a great enthusiast for legend as you know. He also seems to feel that the G/A romance isn't loves young dream - and that can only be I assume because of legend rather than the scripts he gets since the show does all it can to Disneyfy the A/G romance. I guess he can join Gate promise and myself in the Snet Delusional Club.
@avanta83 Yes he could if he stated his opinion as fact...only he hasn't. He has said what he believed would happen based on his understanding of the legends...unfortunately for you him and Gatepromise...he's not a writer. This is the creators version not yours. thank heavens...and they get to portray what they want and not have it's reality twisted by your agenda. They get a Gwen of color, they get knights in shiny armor and a talking dragon don't like it...don't watch.
@snet819 And back we come to 'don't watch' and accusations of 'twisting'. And talking of twisting..I didn't say Bradley stated his opinion as fact . I said he believed the triangle would happen because he was heavily into legend. And people who are heavily into Arthurian legend know the triangle is iconic.(or as you would say 'delusional')
@avanta83 And once again we are indeed back to twisting because neither did I...I said if? No he is not into legend heavily or otherwise if he were and you were you'd understand by now that the writers seem to be marrying original with popular. What is your obsession with guinevere as opposed to gwen or Lancelot vs Lance...we both know who we are talking about...no?
@snet819 Because Im talking about the queen of legend - Guinevere- you're referring to Gwen, the character in the show. Guinevere and lancelot were legendary lovers like Tristan and Isolde and Romeo and Juliet. Gwen is a TV character and 'Lance' is largely fan fiction. The writers are marrying original with popular? You mean they gave people like yourself what they wanted on A/G and never mind the iconic legends? yeah I agree they did that.
@avanta83 No we are talking about the same characters I'm just shortening their names. Gwen of legend has always loved Lance of legend since. They have not always had an affair. They are iconic sure but this is not the first and won't be the last time they are not end game. So why is it worrying you so much this time?
@snet819 Its not worrying me to the extent any deviation from A/G love seems to be worrying you. Ive said it over and over again but you don't seem to see. The triangle was iconic and I love Arthurian legend. I also really like the show for the main part - in that I see its potential though it often lets me down. I was very disappointed with what they did with the triangle. I can't think of one retelling that they weren't endgame, except the Roman Britain one. Which was a joke.:p
@avanta83 Wait...so you can't think of one in which they weren't endgame except one in which they weren't endgame...thus making it a joke. SERIOUSLY? Yes I love that Arthur and Gwen love one another but I also recognize that had they done the affair it would have been a valid portrayal. U r the one stuck. U seem to think because they didn't go that route they failed U. Gwen didn't cheat in King Arthur...did that send you to the net decrying blasphemy to all?
@snet819 Good grief. Calm down. The one telling that didn't have then as endgame was set in Roman Britian supposedly before the medieval legends and was completely seperate from them. there was no pretence they were retelling them. Unlike Shine. I was disgusted by the way they treated the G/L/A iconic triangle. How many times must I repeat that? Im entitled to feel that way and express it. I know thats not the way they're portraying it. Whats your point?
@snet819 I'd also point out that I haven't said anywhere that I dislike the show - its got its good points for sure though I doubt we'd agree on them. Im simply disgusted with the A/G/L treatment. You seem so invested in this storyline though you see anyone who challenges it as an enemy.
@avanta83 Your argument that I'm invested in this version but your disgust for the A/G/L treatment leaves you what...objective...is childish and circular. You're not my enemy...you are/were simply wrong on the facts. Gwen and Lance have not always had a physical affair In one telling Arthur asked Lance to sleep with Gwen etc. You were wrong. You'll note I never told you we have to agree...but if it disgusts you then why torment yourself by watching?
@snet819 You do twist things Snet. Where did I say the show disgusted me? Please do point it out. Was it the same place GP said A and M are gay? You just make things up. In all major tellings of the the legend G and L were lovers - they are the great lovers of classic Arthurian legend. That is fact. You won't convince me other wise because I know its true. As I said to someone else (polite) on here, try googling Guinevere and ... and see what the top result is.
@avanta83 Are u serious? Read ur post. U said the triangle treatment disgusted u. U said Lancelot and Guinevere always have an affair. Then you turn around and ask when u said it...maybe u should slow down and reread what you write as opposed to asking me. It's not like you have to go back that far.
@snet819 I said the triangle treatment disgusted me. I did NOT say the show disgusted me. can you see the difference? There is more to the show than A/G. Had you noticed?
@avanta83 yes spreading untruth is lying but as I realize that most people who come on line claiming to "know" legend don't really... I assumed you were uninformed...and not intentionally lying...therefore I spoke the truth...without calling you a liar. Since you are so concerned with name calling one would think you'd note the distinction...slight as it is.
@snet819 Im still waiting for the references.Since you know all Arthurian legend and only you are 'informed' I assumed they'd be at your fingertips. You've implied throughout that I was spreading 'untruths' deliberately, not to mention the insults you directed at another poster. I don't see why you'd be squeamish about it now.
@gatepromise If you don't need to be spoon feed it's completely believable. They never stopped loving one another. Arthur was hurt and confused...and vacillated over 5 episodes as to what was more important to him his pride or the woman he loved. Maybe you missed 9-13. That must be it because you also missed Gwen telling Arthur for the first time that he meant everything thing to her...that she loved him yet, all you heard Is her saying all I've ever wanted was to be your
@gatepromise queen" Not that she meant in the way you heard it any way... But yeah their make up was totally realistic. Because despite the fact that we saw how much he truly loved her...it wasn't until he was faced with the finality of death that he could put aside his pride and admit that having her was more important to him than the fact that she kissed another man.
@gatepromise She (MP) has not missed the point. The point is this is a RE-TELLING of an old legend with many variations, and THIS version is running with the Arthur & Guinevere are in love angle. I don't agree with any of your put-downs. The romance was 4 years in the making, hardly contrived or convoluted. It sounds to me like you'd be HAPPIER with a cartoon version rather than one where people have doubts and flaws and make mistakes.
@Celithrathien I've PM'd you regarding your last comments to me, but to this I have to say that what would make me happy would be seeing them actually working out their problems. That would be believable and real. Not this sudden--OH, it's twu wuv, even if we hardly know each other at all business. That is simply shallow. Even Bradley James does not like it and he's intimately involved with it. I think that is very telling. I'd have no problem at all if they'd just make it more real & believable
@gatepromise Bradley James' opinion means nothing to me. He's an actor and paid to do a job. As long as he plays the role convincingly and makes me believe Arthur is in love and happy, I'm good. That's all I care about, being entertained.
@MelinaPendulum The show is using the medieval legends - all the iconic imagery is from these. To cut out one of the most famous and legendary parts of the tale and indeed one of the greatest love pairings in early western literature - Guinevere and Lancelot - is deeply disappointing. If they introduced lancelot as a character at all its 'canon' for him to have an affair with Guinevere that destabilises Camelot. They pandered (I assume) to a vocal part of the audience and gutted the legend.
@gatepromise A/G IS canon. Have YOU read the legends? Arthur married Guinevere because he loved her. The earliest version of this legend portray Guinevere as a loyal and loving wife to Arthur. Later on Lancelot was brought into the equation. That said, there is plenty of room to play around with this legend. And since I have always wanted Guinevere to be Arthur's loving and loyal wife, this version delights me.
@Celithrathien You say A/G is canon and to the extent that they got married in just about all the legends that is true. But that they lived happily ever after is not canon. The legends the show portrays are the medieval ones - NOT the old welsh ones in which Guinevere is a very much less important character. In the medieval legends which introduce Excalibur, the round table etc Guinevere betrays Arthur with Mordred in Monmouth and then with Lancelot in later legends.
@avanta83 It doesn't matter which legend they play with, the fact remains that Lancelot was not ALWAYS a factor in the relationship between A/G and that *is* canon. If the show chooses to go with the lesser of the well known variations in the treatment of A/G so be it. You don't have to like it, but it doesn't make it untrue or less valid. The series has taken liberty with MANY aspects of the Arthurian legend, so the hissy fit over A/G living "happily ever after" is ridiculous.
@Celithrathien Well with respect since they introduced Lancelot at all, the canon is that G and L fell in love and had an affair which destabilised Camelot- and in the medieval legends on which the show is based that is also true. If they hadn't introduced him I could see your point. .I don't think having an opinion different to your own constitutes a hissy fit by the way?
@avanta83 The hissy fit comment wasn't directed at you, but to the fans who seem to have an issue with the way A/G is being worked in Merlin in general. Your point about canon as respects makes no sense. The writer(s) who introduced Lancelot built on an existing story. Because that person (or persons) introduced Lancelot does not take away from the original. The medieval legends you are clinging to weren't the beginning or the end all of this legend. TBC
@avanta83 Continuing...It doesn't matter that Lancelot was introduced. The character is not playing the same role nor does he have the same impact as he did in your medieval legends. He is not Guinevere's forever love, not to mention he is *dead.* Morgana and Arthur did not have sex and Mordred is not their son, all of which happened in the medieval legends, so while point is noted it really isn't defensible from the stand point of the story MERLIN telling. TBC
@avanta83 Continuing...The writers may have indicated that they were going to deal with the main points of the Arthurian legend, but I don't recall them saying they were going to follow them slavishly. And for what it's worth, I'm glad. Because I never liked Lancelot or Guinevere in the medieval legends. He was not honorable or loyal to his king, and she was a cheating s***.
@Celithrathien I really really don't get your logic Im afraid. You're saying that because the show introduced Lancelot it doesnt matter how they changed his role in legend - thats now canon? In every legend in which he and she appear, he IS Guinevere's great love. I get that you don't like it but its a bit like redoing Romeo and Juliet and deciding you don't fancy the tragedy and so Romeo sticks with the girl his parents chose. G and L are the great lovers of legend, not G and A. TBC
@avanta83 TBC. This Gwen is not Gwen of legend nor is this Lance. This Gwen was a servant free to love and marry whomever she chose. Nor TBC in "popular legend" does Gwen always have an affair w/Lance...TBC.
@snet819 I don't see what Gwen being free to marry who she liked has to do with it? That doesn't remove the possibility of an affair. I repeat - in every legend featuring G and L they did have an affair. I don't think there can be any doubt that this Gwen is not the Guinevere of legend and nor, since they killed him off before he could do what legend had him do, was this Lancelot. But the violence the show did to the legendary story of G/L and A is undeniable.
@avanta83 What are you talking about? The show has introduced all the iconic characters in the legend and played with their legendary roles in 'Merlin.' Why is it so hard for you to understand that? You can repeat the every legend Lancelot was Guinevere's great love crap until the cows come home, that doesn't make it so. And even if it did, it's NOT so in 'Merlin.' Guinevere & Arthur are the great love match. I hate to go grade school, but deal with it already.
@Celithrathien Yes it does make it so - and I don't see why you view that as such a threat. You have the onscreen version you want so why you seem to insist on trying to force me to accept that the show has honoured the legend I have no idea. The show has always played with the journey but the destination has met legend. Or perhaps excalibur could have been given to Leon; Arthur could have married Mithian, the round table could have been triangular? And - deal with it? Really? How very grown up.
@avanta83 This is not personal so I am not threatened by anything you say here. But you are purposely missing the point I'm making. How grown up is that?
@CelithrathienNo Im not purposely missing your point. If Im not getting your point please make it again without the 'deal with it' antics? You're most certainly missing mine though. You don't want 'Gwen' to be like the Guinevere of iconic legend - and yay for you, she isn't. But I don't get why you're trying to insist Guinevere of legend is accurately reproduced in Gwen? Your TV character is how you want her to be. But you're angry because its pointed out iconic legend wasn't like that?
@Celithrathien As for the show 'taking liberties' with many aspects - they may play with the journey but they stick to the destination. Excalibur is Arthurs magical sword, the round table has the same significance, Guinevere is queen, Mordred and Morgana are Arthur's enemies who'll bring about his downfall. But Lancelot? Uniquely he was introduced but his crucial role in legend has been ripped from him. To please, presumably, people who 'don't like it' because its not very nice.
@avanta83 "But Lancelot? Uniquely he was introduced but his crucial role in legend has been ripped from him." Really? I'd say his role basically was the same. He came between Guinevere and Arthur. He got Guinevere publicly shamed and exiled, and he was thought to be dishonorable and disloyal to his king. That pretty much sums up Lancelot's his "crucial role" in the legend. Pleasing people had nothing to do with it, working it into this version of the legend is what mattered.
@Celithrathien Lancelots role in legend wasn't just to come between G and A and give G a few uncomfortable days in exile. It destroyed G and As relationship and destabilised camelot helping lead to its downfall. How is that what we saw? A blip before a wedding, Lancelot disposed of and dismissed as a first crush, and on as if he never existed. Thats nothing like legend. I'd say pleasing vocal people had a lot to do with why they ran away from one the best emotional dramatic SLs in legend.
@avanta83 One. More. Time. There is more than one variation of this legend...in some Lancelot had nothing to do with the fall of Camelot because he was never in the story. Why are you having such a problem with that?
@Celithrathien One.More. Time. I know. Have you understood anything I said? Since he's one of the major figures of the medieval legends the show is based on, THEY introduced him. So he (was) in this story. There are no major versions of the medieval legends in which he isn't G's great love. If you can find one, even a minor version, I'd love to see it. You don't want 'Gwen' to be an adulteress - fine, she isnt- but in iconic legend Guinevere was. Why are you having such a problem with that?
@avanta83 I get that you don't *like* the legend - but thats what it was when Lancelot was in it. Morgana wasn't always Arthurs lover, nor was Mordred always Arthurs son. The G/L love affair is actually one of the most iconic & enduring features of the medieval legend which is why its one of the great love stories of early western literature. Try googling 'Guinevere and..' and see what comes up, even after 4 seasons of 'Merlin' have fanatically pushed Arthur and Gwen.
@avanta83 Try reading a book and don't rely on Google searches to give you all the facts about subject, especially not this one. Your list of great love stories is whacked, because I have NEVER heard Lancelot and Guinevere's adulterous affair classified as one of the great love stories of literature.
@Celithrathien Why are people who like Arwen in this show so aggressive not to mention defensive? Cant you debate without it being unpleasant? I read a lot of books and I also know a fair bit about early literature. If *you* do, then you know that L and G IS one of the great love stories of early Western culture. Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't make it wrong. And yes - you could try googling it.
@avanta83 I am not being unpleasant. Do you want me to be? LOL Okay, seriously, I'm an English Lit major and no, L/G was never on any great love story list I worked with. Sorry. But you keep on spinning that one.
@Celithrathien No I don't want you to be. I want to be able to debate rationally without personal digs. Is that asking too much? So as an 'English Lit major', G/L wasn't no any great love store list you worked on, so thats that written off? Did you do much work on early Western literature? Tristan and Isolde perhaps?
@Celithrathien Well not only doesn't she have to like it but not all legends have Lance and Gwen having an affair. People pretend they know the legends but what they really mean is they think they know the popular ones. For instance most scholars don't buy into the Mordred affair. That was Monmouth's take. Gwen would have had no choice once he captured the keep. Not that this is anything but fable mind you.
@snet819 yes we know that not all legends had G and L having an affair but all legends that featured lancelot had he and Guinevere having an affair. These were the popular legends yes - and these are the legends the show is retelling in their own way - not the older welsh ones.The producers *themselves* chose to introduce the G/L/A triangle so THEY chose the legend that involved an affair - just they chose to infantilise it.
@avanta83 Even after Lance was introduced not all versions have them having an affair. That is a FACT. Yes she always loved him...but it was not always physical. The fact that this Gwen is free to choose, not forced into a marriage of convenience means she had the choice of marrying for love...which she did. Same tale, she loved them both to some degree, in love with Arthur. BTW one tale had Lance in love with Arthur...not Gwen. Maybe you don't know the legends after all...
@snet819 In every important medieval legend Guinevere is in love with Lancelot. That is a a fact. Just google it. The whole triangle is supposed to show that earthly paradise - camelot - is destroyed not by external enemies but by human weakness. The triangle is iconic in literature - and nothing you can say will change that. G and L are the epic lovers of legend not G and A This Tv programme has turned it into some Disney thing for kids which is fine if you like that kind of thing.
@snet819 As for Lancelot in love with Arthur - no I certainly hadn't heard of that one. Hah! You must tell me more. The TV show had certainly done its utmost to push the idea that G is in love with A not L - thats not in dispute, though for me the A/G chemistry is desperately woefully lacking onscreen. Its simply that that is not what the legend they're covering was about - they turned the triangle into a tale for little kiddies. 'Magic made them do it'. Really.
@snet819 I think as well that the idea that Gwen was free to choose therefore could never have an affair is pretty strange too. Its possible she could have married Arthur in love, then things went stale/they drifted apart/she realised she'd loved Lancelot. Having Gwen choose to marry Arthur didn't rule out adultery. Possibly why the producers had to kill off lancelot and play out the triangle so pitifully before the wedding. I was very disillusioned by the show's sad lack of guts. Its allowed.
@Celithrathien Well not only doesn't she have to like it but not all legends have Lance and Gwen having an affair. People pretend they know the legends but what they really mean is they think they know the popular ones. For instance most scholars don't buy into the Mordred affair. That was Monmouth's take. Gwen would have had no choice once he captured the keep. Not that this is anything but fable mind you.
So Merlin is wearing Arthur's clothes? Okay. Ugh, why did they cut that scene though? Maybe because it was out of character? Only by a bit though. BUT THEIR BROMANCE IS STRONGER! It shouldn't be out of character for Arthur to mess up Merlin's hair! I shall stop typing now.
WHY THE FUCK DID THEY CUT THE KISS? It was the ONLY Arwen pda I've ever liked. It felt natural. O___o But no, they have to go and cut it, and shoot other scenes with violins or sunlight and AARGHHHHH
@MsLyraGW .i think they cut it cause gwen was talking about lancelot,god fobid gwen got to ralk about lancelot in a way that suggest he was anything more than a stupid high school crush.
@Ravenya03 .i know that morgana lancelot scene was perfect and ketie played it so great,we saw regret,it shows there is still humanity left in her,she still feels something,perfect way to give depth to this character .but no one dimentional vilian is attractive to the writers so .
2:27 heterosexual hair ruffle is heterosexual. :) <3
BriaMercedes 1 week ago
Katie looks great wet
Yianz777 1 week ago
I dont have a paragraph to write or anything. I just have to say I'm looking forward to many more moments of Arthur casually kissing Gwen on the cheek in season 5
ocd4lane 3 weeks ago
Dear, dear Sammie! Do you also have the deleted scenes of episode 10,11,12 and 13? I am ever so curious about them!! :-D
CartoonJessie 1 month ago
In any event I have a job to go to so Im off to bed.:) Goodnight Snet. It's been interesting. :p
avanta83 1 month ago
cont'd...phobic, and fed up with people stating their limited knowledge as fact. The fact that he has been trying to push his Merthur agenda for years is why I directed him to two beautifully portrayed homosexual relationships as opposed to trying to push his agenda on a heterosexual friendship.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 Why shouldn't he (or she) prefer the Arthur Merlin relationship on screen? Why shouldn't he 'push it for years'? I assume you've been pushing the demand that people love A/G for that long? If people don't like what you like, they can't express their opinion and have to stop watching and go and watch something for which you feel they're suitable? Is that really what you mean to say?
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Well you are wrong a few fronts. I don't care what you want to believe I care that it is demeaning to men and fuels homophobia to say that if two men are close and willing to show affection for one another they are gay. This questioned was posed to Bradley Colin Julian and Johnny all have said the characters aren't gay. So why the need to push the theory and use lies to do so. What does it mean that Bradley shared your opinion?
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 I don't see anywhere GP says Arthur and merlin are gay. I thought he/ she said he or she DIDNT believe that. But if people want to slash characters why shouldn't they? I don't think many (any?) people believe it would be brought in screen in the homophobic culture we live in? Bradley said in interviews before S4 that Guinevere would end up with Lancelot and Arthur (in a different way) with Merlin. (Im paraphrasing). He also said A and G were a political marriage as I remember.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 I wont debate gatepromise with you...been reading his b/s for years. Because they are not their characters to /. Yes because like you he didn't realize there are other versions and the writers were/are free to pursue any route they wanted. Hope u r paraphrasing again as he said it could be viewed as a political marriage...but was it? NO...he gave up lands to reject a political marriage only to marry a woman who was slut shamed...now that's LOVE. Disney? Turn the channel.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 Bradleys view of the relationship is shaped by the legends he loves. Thats clear. The show has turned the A/G/L thing into a romance for children. And A and G are more Shrek and Fiona than anything else. But each to their own and all that. I certainly wouldn't argue that the writers are invested in A/G to the point that they trash Arthurs character as a man raised to put his kingdom before all else. But who cares - its Disney, right? I stick up for Gp because I hate bullying. Simple.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Then you stick up for a bully...This is a family show...so again there was Camelot...but that didn't do so well did it? Again...if A/G don't suit your taste don't watch...or better yet write your version and stop trying to tear down this version.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 GP wasn't doing any bullying Snet. You're the one hurling insults and trying to silence debate. And there you go again. I'll watch the show if I want - and for other things than A/G but if I don't like A/G I'll say so. Free country and all that.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 again your opinion. I never tried to silence debate just shed light on your untruths and his motives. I can understand how that could be troubling...maybe he'll email you some of the links he has to interviews he has taken out of context or some of the foul things he has said about Angel/Gwen in the fast...either way I could care less he knows and I know what he has posted in the past and what his agenda is. I've not said one thing that isn't true.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 My untruths? is this really how you debate? Cant you be reasonable and put your points forward in a civil manner rather than misrepresenting the things other people say? can't you accept that other people might see things differently without having foul motives? I would say that your methods would certainly silence debate unless people are prepared to put up with being browbeaten and called names. I called it bullying and to my eyes it is.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Dear me. Yes untruths. It is not true that Guinevere and Lancelot always have an affair. You stated it as a fact...that makes it untrue. Notice I didn't call you a liar. I don't know that you were intentionally spreading an untruth but untruth it is. If you are feeling brow beaten try arguing from your opinion as opposed to stating your beliefs as facts.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 THis is like groundhog day. Accusing someone of propagating 'untruths' is accusing them of lying. Perhaps you meant to imply I was mistaken? Thats a different and more polite thing to say. I repeat though that every major account in medieval legend has them as lovers. Every one. You say you've found some obscure ones that don't. But you seem to agree that the G/L romance is the iconic one in classic Arthurian legend - so really aren't you ignoring the main point?
avanta83 1 month ago
@snet819 Sorry I just noticed 'they are not their characters to slash'? With respect they are. They're anyones characters to slash (with a disclaimer) as I understand it. You could just as easily say Guinevere and Lancelot are not Shine's characters to mess with either.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 NO they are not their characters to /...unless in fanfiction. Like it or not...the creators haven't messed with the characters of GWEN and LANCE. Gwen is still married to Arthur...Gwen still loved both. And just as in varying versions (no ones fault you don't know of what you speak) she doesn't have an affair with Lance.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 Hang on. If you're going to patronise me show me the references. I know all the major legends but you're going to show me the one where 'lance' is in love with arthur and the one where Arthur is telling lance to impregnate 'gwen'. Once characters are out there people can do what they want with them as Shine are proving.
avanta83 1 month ago
WHY DO THEY KEEP CUTTING MORGANA'S SCENES!!!???!??!?!?!!? AAARRGH!!!!! SO ANGRY!!!! That one with her and Lancelot was really sweet, you actually saw a bit of humanity in her. They seem to just want to make a once multifaceted character into a one dimensional, stereotypical villain. It really annoys me!
oddn 1 month ago
I don't know if Merlin simply wants his two best friends to be happy, or if he thinks Gwen being Queen has something to do with Albion's future.
reevesdamn 1 month ago 2
@reevesdamn It's probably the first one for the most part. Gwen will probably have a positive effect on Arthur's thoughts of magic.
twilightfan052294 1 month ago
Haha, I'm one of the extras in the Hogs Head that you glimpse for a split-second as she walks in. They left a bit out later on where Morgana walks back out of the pub, one of the extras grabs her hand and she breaks his wrist with magic. Pity... :)
djdustie 1 month ago 2
can someone tell me what arthur says to merlin at 2:23, right before he says "you'll be there, should i need you"?
TurfoodleWaywocket 1 month ago
@TurfoodleWaywocket "No time like the present." I believe. ^^
rayuk666 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Some of us were thinking it was creepy of Merlin to be there but if they had added this scene between Arthur and Merlin everything would have been clear. Arthur actually wanted Merlin to be there during proposal because he wanted him to be there.
zipzap570 1 month ago
Comment removed
zipzap570 1 month ago
i love arthur and gwen
defrew123 1 month ago in playlist More videos from SammieGail93
The whole series revolves around Arthur and Merlin's relationship, but God forbid if every Merthur scene doesn't get put in. They have to develop A/G it's part of the canon/story of the show, stop getting pissy just because you prefer one over the other.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago 2
@MelinaPendulum But A/G ISN'T canon! Have you never read the legends??? They were never in love! it was an arranged marriage and she and Lancelot were the ones in love. The fact that the show keeps pushing the A/G so very desperately even though the lack of chemistry is so painfully obvious is just sad. They have to play it up so big, with all the sunbeams and the violin orchestrations, and they wouldn't have to if it was anywhere near believable!
gatepromise 1 month ago
@gatepromise Yes, I have read the legends, which is why I know that in the older versions of the legends Gwen and Arthur were happily married, had children and Gwen never had feels for or cheated with Lancelot. But I'm sure you must know that.
Chemistry is subjective, so you are free not to like it, but I personally think that they have plenty of chemistry and since everything in this show has levels of corniness to it, I accept the sunbeams along with all the innuendo of Merthur :)
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum In all of the legends except for the Grail romance titled Perlesvaus, Arthur and Gwen had no children. In some of the legends, such as the Welsh triad, Arthur had 3 queens. The Knight of the Cart is probably the first time Lancelot and Guinivere are lovers, and that is a VERY VERY old legend. The point is that saying A/G in love is "canon" makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And I'd be fine w/them being in love on the show if I could actually believe they were!
gatepromise 1 month ago
@gatepromise Yes and all three of his queens were named Gwen in some form or another. A/G in love is canon in some of the tales, just because they are not the popular ones does not make it not true. You don't have to LIKE it, but just because it doesn't work the way you want does not make it less canon.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum You've missed the point, which is that they were often NOT IN LOVE in the legends. As was the custom of the time, theirs was an arranged marriage.I can cite 100 more instances where they were not in love, but I think you know that too. This sappy, sterile, silly, Disney-esque romance of the show is contrived, convoluted, non-organic, and had no time to actually make it believable. One minute he didnt know she existed, the next it was twu wuv. It sucks the air out of every scene!
gatepromise 1 month ago
@gatepromise And you've missed my point, just because more times they weren't in love does not make the times that they were in love null-and-void. Many things in this show are changed from the fundamental of the legend. Having just finished series 2 of Merlin of the list of poorly written things on the show A/G is not even as bad as I've heard. If you don't like them as a couple, that is perfectly valid because it's your opinion, I think they are fine for what the show is.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum Then why would you say it's canon, then? There is no canon! How about the version of the legends where Arthur had illigit kids while he was married to Gwen--and not just with Morgan, either! That's how off the beaten track the idea of this Harlequin-romance-for-13-year-old-girls "romance" this show presents is. The writers have done a very poor job of presenting it, and if they totally copped out about the A/G/L triangle--why present it at all if they were going to mangle it.
gatepromise 1 month ago
@gatepromise Then if there is no canon then did you say that A/G isn't canon? They had to present the A/GL triangle because it's popular, people expect it to play out a certain way and when Lancelot died in the first episodes of season 4, people were complaining about not having the love triangle. I think the romance between A/G is fine, it's very typical of courtly love in the way the corniness of it is played up and I understand the attraction to each other. It's a matter of taste
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum I said it isn't canon because it isn't canon! There is no canon!!!! Royal marriages of that time were ALWAYS arranged. And if the love as shown on the show could actually convince me, I wouldn't mind, but when they have Gwen always saying she wants to be Arthur's queen--not his WIFE, his QUEEN--I remain unconvinced. Even Bradley James is not a supporter of the romance as depicted--and I think it shows. It's telling when someone intimately involved doesn't like the depiction.
gatepromise 1 month ago 2
@gatepromise So if there is no canon then what is the problem? I think that people are gasping straws when she says that she wants to be Arthur's queen, I mean in the same breathe she also says she loves him and that he means everything to her. I won't say that there are no problems with the way they have been written, there are, but some of the opposing shippers make them opinion seem like fact. You prefer Merthur to Arwen, fine, but that does not make them horrible.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum The problem is that you claimed, at the beginning of this discussion, that they are canon. I also think that there has been a lot of times showing how much Gwen likes to advise and be in control of things--that whole "I want to be your Queen" thing may mean something, or it would if the writing had any depth. Likewise, Arthur waxes and wanes about his commitment to her and what he's willing to do for her, and they never show them working things out or dealing with any of it.
gatepromise 1 month ago
@gatepromise By canon I wasn't talking about the myths, I was talking about the in-show context. I will agree that Arthur does go up and down, but he also does that in his relationship to Merlin. They go from being close one episode to very status-quo in the other. So I think that is a problem with how the writers write the relationships, not specifically just Arwen
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@gatepromise LOL "Guinevere likes to be in control of things?" What show are you watching? Did it escape you somehow that Arthur felt insecure and inadequate when he became king? He leaned far too heavily on Agravaine and didn't trust his own gut feelings? Do you think he was happy about breaking it off (even temporarily) with Guinevere? What do you think that whole "controlled aggression" thing was about? Why do you think he told M to give G his ring if he died in combat?
Celithrathien 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum I'm interested in this. If they introduced the A/G/L triangle because its popular (as it is indeed - its one of the most iconic parts of the legend) and people expected it to play out a certain way, why did they *totally* change it? This is the only major part of the legend they have changed - they toy with other things but they don't change the essential direction of the legend. Neutering and infantilising the triangle is a massive alteration to the legends they are using.
avanta83 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum I do think that since the most popular, the most well known, and the majority of Arthurian legend has Gwen most often Arthur's friend and helpmate but not as his one true love, that it does lend a bit more creedence to the idea that the show has really gone off the rails with their over the top "end all and be all" romance they are trying to force upon the audience, but whatever. If they had spent the time to show a convincing relationship unfold, I might feel differently.
gatepromise 1 month ago
@gatepromise I feel they have shown their relationship unfold in as realistic as they can. I just feel that because people prefer Merthur to Arwen they keep trying to make it seem like Arwen is ruining the show when in reality it is doing no such thing. I've gotten people into the show BECAUSE of Arwen. You want to talk about what's ruining the show, how about the poor ways female characters or written or the inconsistencies in characters/writing. Those are problems.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum I've seen more people puke over Arwen than be drawn in by it, but whatever. But I do agree with you about the horrible, shallow way women are portrayed on the show. The only 2 regular female characters are either 100% evil or 100% good, no realistic in between.
gatepromise 1 month ago
@gatepromise lol, I know it's not the fan-preferred couple, but those outside of the internet fandom have liked it. I personally don't care if people don't like Arwen are not as long as they don't use arguments about it not being like the legend or bashing Angel due to her race. I don't think Arwen is perfect, but the actors performances make me enjoy it. I actually like Arthur, Gwen as people so them being happy makes me happy.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum please don't buy into his bitterness that Arthur and Merlin are straight. The Merthur fandom may be loud but it's not large. The Arthur/Gwen eps are some of the highest rated and look at which scenes and get the most views on utube. If you are not gay a bigot or stupid enough to think Arthur/Morgana was ever going to happen then you've know since s1e1 that Arwen was happening.
snet819 1 month ago
@gatepromise Why are more people puking over Arwen? What are their reasons? And this is a serious question. Because that is an inflammatory and rather childish remark.
Celithrathien 1 month ago
@Celithrathien You could always ask Bradley James, he doesn't like it either.
gatepromise 1 month ago
@gatepromise I don't care what Bradley James likes or doesn't like. His opinion has no bearing on the role he is being paid to play. I will give him props because he's a good actor. If he has any problems they don't show in his work.
Celithrathien 1 month ago
@Celithrathien Sorry if I enter the discussion without being requested, I never heard BJ said he doesn't like A/G (I'm not in the fans stuff), I don't find hard to believe it though, since he doesn't actually manage to put any real passion in his moments with AC. I find the lack of chemistry between the two (good) actors painfully blatant from both part. I think they just don't work together and they are not supported by a dull writing. Personal opinion. Feel free to disagree.
parisad 1 month ago
@parisad Apologies not necessary. It's an open forum and all are welcome to respond. That said, I *do* disagree with your opinion.
Celithrathien 1 month ago
@parisad You are entitled to your opinion but mine differs greatly. Bradley plays love sick in my opinion better than Angel even though she is clearly the stronger actor. Their love scenes sizzle in my opinion. It's what got me hooked. BTW...gatepromise is delusional. He is taking things Bradley said out of context and using it to feed his own warped needs. Bradley doesn't want Arthur defined by the romance and most of his comments were from a perspective of the legends.
snet819 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum How could Arthur banishing Gwen, hugging Gwen, then telling her to buzz off, and then, with no discussion/working out/resolution, marrying her seem in any way, shape or form "realistic" to you? Makes no sense whatsoever. It's childish, fairy tale, unconvicincing, and that would be fine if that's all the show was, but it isn't--there are times when it has demonstrated brilliant sophistication. It's just the romance that seems to be push relentlessly with no thought of believable!
gatepromise 1 month ago
@gatepromise I'm not talking solely about season 4, but since we are talking about that: Arthur regretted his decision to banish Gwen right after he did it. When he hugged her he was just injured and was probably caught in the moment of seeing her. Him taking her back was the result of seeing Isolde die and realizing that he wanted to be with Gwen while they could still be together in life. Hence the rush to marry. Is it perfect? No, but it's typical Merlin.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@gatepromise What specific incidents are you talking about and what context did they happen in? There is cause and effect to consider even in TV shows. I think it's childish and unconvincing to say Arthur & Guinevere's romance is the thing that's wrong with Merlin simply because you don't like it, and harping on the "relentless push" of their romance when I have yet to see that in 4 seasons.
Celithrathien 1 month ago 3
@gatepromise The real problem is you and always has been. You are bent and it has colored your perception of Arwen since the beginning. Canon was that Arthur fell for Gwen at first sight. Despite Merlin warning him of her future betrayal. You however have since season 1 been on line talking down Arwen using any excuse but the truth. Arthur is not gay. He loves Gwen...she loves him...after 4 seasons get over it or stop watching. Try Spartacus...they offer what you need.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 And the homophobes come out to play! I've never said Arthur is gay. All I've ever said (since season 2, because I didn't start watching the show until midpoint s2), was that Arthur and Gwen as depicted do not work and aren't believable. Their relationship is inorganic, manufactured, stilted, childish, sterile, and one dimensional. I've come to like the Gwen character very much, just not when she is in the same room as Arthur because they have exactly 0 chemistry and came out of blue.
gatepromise 1 month ago
@gatepromise I'm not homophobic, just calling you out. Your bitterness is about Arwen. Yet since she spoke to Merlin in the stocks it was clear she fancied Arthur and it was clear that he had feelings for her once he showed up at her house after her fathers death. That's a pretty slow build if you ask me but yes once he fell, he fell hard...happens everyday. So what are you really bitter about...it's your agenda. Watch Glee or s1 of Spartacus. Lovely ships to meet your needs.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 Thats a deeply offensive comment. If you're so sure of your argument you shouldn't have to sink to the level of personal abuse, should you? This is a TV programme and people ARE allowed to have differing views on it without getting insults thrown at them. Gatepromise is entitled to post her/his opinions on this show without getting browbeaten even if he/she dares not to like what you like.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 gatepromise is a troll and has been for years. He has posted some of the most foul disgusting comments imaginable. He and you are welcome to your opinions but neither of you are welcome to your own facts...to think you are is well...delusional and if that fact bothers you sorry.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 As far as I can see gate promise out forward opinions on a TV programme without any personal insults at all far less the homophobic stuff you're hurling about. You on the other hand seem to feel that anyone who doesn't share your adoration of your favoured TV romance deserves to be called delusional, twisted, bent and a troll. The idea of reasoned debate seems to have passed you by - anyone who disagrees with you is' delusional'
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Actually I've only called gatepromise those things because for at least two years he has showed himself to be such. What I said about you and him both is that if you substitute opinion for fact it is delusional. Like it is a fact that Gwen does not always have an affair with Lance...it is a fact that in one telling they only sleep together at Arthur's request as he could not get her pregnant. Changing the topic won't change the facts. I'm not homophobic...just gatepromise
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 then you may want to rethink the way you phrase things. You sound as if you think gate promise is a gay man and is therefore incapable of having an opinion on the AG romance that is not twisted and delusional. That's not cool.I think you'll find too that I haven't changed the topic - just addressed it elsewhere. Guinevere (not Gwen) and Lancelot (not Lance) are the iconic romance of classic Arthurian legend. Thats a fact.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 while I disagree with you your opinions are valid. Much has been changed in Merlin. I love that Gwen has been reclaimed. Most scholars disagree with Monmouth portraying her as an adulteress. She was in legend a devoted spouse. This Gwen was not likely to have an affair who knows why Lance was written off, but with them marrying the way they did it is much more likely they can now introduce an affair...even if it is not with Lance.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 Thanks for saying so. Since Guinevere is a legendary figure I don't really see why scholars would disagree with her portrayal by Monmouth. Certainly he began the idea that she was unfaithful but until Monmouth, she was a secondary figure at best. A passive figure who was rescued a lot. The medieval legends took her front of stage and brought the Arthurian legends to life. Theres a reason these are the legends everyone knows today, and a reason they're the ones Shine choose to use. tbc
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Doesn't matter what you see. Scholars have been studying Arthurian legend for centuries...doesn't matter that she was a minor character...she was not viewed as an adulteress until monmouth. Yes because they are the easiest to read and best align with our romantic views. I happen not to like misogyny and am again...thrilled Gwen has been reclaimed...for the moment.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 Yes they have but Guinevere (not Gwen) is a character in literature not a person. Until Monmouth and Chretien almost none of the features we now all recognise in Arthuria legend appeared either.To say you don't like misogyny therefore you don't want to see a female character in legend/literature behaving badly is interesting.
avanta83 1 month ago
@snet819I assume then that you approve of the portrayal of gwen in the BBC show as Perfect in all things - a character without any flaw? the only other main female is Evil. Only Arthur and Merlin are allowed 3 dimensions - flaws as well as good features. To me personally thats more misogynistic than allowing 'Gwen' to be a good person with some human failings.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Gwen is not perfect and is 3 dimensional. She is a good person but not perfect. Neither is Morgana wholly evil. That you can't or don't see subtlety is your issue. But Gwen's willingness to put others needs above her own is a flaw. Morgana's feelings for those who stand in her way is humanizing. I said I don't want to see a faithful wife turned into an Eden destroying harlot. Not quite the same thing.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 Gwen's willingness to put others needs first isn't a flaw. Its yet another sign of perfection. She HAS no human flaws. They couldn't even allow her to be tempted by lancelot- they had to enchant her. She is completely 2 dimensional. Morgana was happily enjoying torture, ordering crops to be burned so children would starve & making men fight to the death for a crust... they've turned her into a cartoon villain. An eden destroying harlot or someone who fell in love? There's a difference.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Psychology says it's a flaw...sorry if again facts conflict with your own personal reality. She was tempted by Lance...until he gifted her to Arthur in a show of chivalry. Yes and she has shown regret at the choices she feels she is forced to make. No sorry their is no difference. While it is reasonable to fall in love with someone other than your husband...that doesn't mean you act on it. When there are stories that depict men as being the cause of sin I'll agree with u
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 I think you have a very much more absolutist view of human behaviour than I do which is possibly why Perfect! Gwen appeals to you so much. People make mistakes. Theres also the fact that perfect people make poor drama. And this is meant to be drama. Maybe the medieval legends have lasted so long because the protagonists were so flawed.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Should not your desire to play fast and loose with the truth trouble you. Google Arthurian writers. Again you attempt to twist truth. I don't have an absolutest view of anyone or thing. I'm not the one saying that because my expectations of the portrayal of fictional characters is different that I expected it's blasphemy...you are.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 You're going to have to explain that. Google `Arthurian writers for what reason? Would you please stop insulting me? Cant you debate win a rational manner? I don't think I ever used the word blasphemy. But I seem to have in your head.
avanta83 1 month ago
@snet819 I admit I don't quite get your last sentence but i interests me. You don't mind showing men being the cause of adultery, just women? Well in that case... lancelot was just as much to blame in the legends. Arthur trusted him and he loved arthur as Guinevere love Arthur. Their one huge flaw was their passion for each other. Great dramatic storyline.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Okay...this is becoming a little trying. Only Gwen was wedded to Arthur. Lance didn't break his oath to Arthur as his oath was different. You do realize that Arthurian legend is just another take on Adam and Eve as recorded by Monmouth and followed up on by manly male authors. So sure it's drama...drama born of the original myth that put woman at the center of mans falls from grace.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 You're right it is becoming trying. :p Do you believe that a friend and knight who betrays his king isn't also guilty? lancelot also broke an oath and he betrayed his king. Yes I agree that its based on the idea of weak woman destroying man, but that was the way the medieval mind saw it. Marie de France was just as bad and she was a woman. I can that you don't like it and i can even see why, but my position is that it IS the iconic legend.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Yes I'm well aware of ur point but it is moot. I'm not saying that L/G is not iconic. I am saying that Merlin's portral is valid and nothing new in writing or film, Had you known that maybe you would not be so disgusted. BTW u r also arguing that because they r iconic it was blasphemous to not portray l/g end game. I'm saying they could have gone either route, I'm happy they didn't turn a role model into an adulteress. Surely the slut shaming was enough worse really.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 You accept that G/L was the iconic romance, but because 1 film set in Roman Britain didn't use it, that makes trashing it 'canon'? I have never said it was blasphemous. Its not MY religion. Ive said that the producers veered drastically from the core iconic legend in this one case, presumably to satisfy people like your good self. It seems we agree after all. You see Gwen as a role model? I begin to understand why you like how boringly perfect they've made her.
avanta83 1 month ago
@snet819 The 'slut shaming' was ridiculous and thats because they tried to pretend they were using the triangle when they were actually running away from it. Thus they used the reaction of a King to an adulterous queen - totally disproportionate to the 'crime' Gwen was seen to commit. They treated the betrothed Gwen who runs around unchaperoned and always spent a lot of time in Arthurs chambers alone, like a betrothed medieval bride. It was ludicrous and Arthur's characterisation paid the price.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 I may be off here, but... wouldn't a betrothed Gwen *be* a betrothed medieval bride? Confused.
CaptainArdee 4 weeks ago
@CaptainArdee The betrothed bride of a medieval queen would be chaperoned to within an inch of her life. She wouldn't be allowed to spend time alone with the king in his bedchamber and she wouldn't be able to wander into other mens tents. The idea that Gwen who has/had complete freedom to suit the show caught kissing another man would be suddenly treated like a cloistered princess who'd strayed and whose virginity could therefore no longer be guaranteed isn't too believable imo.
avanta83 4 weeks ago
@avanta83 Oh, okay, your wording just confused me, that's all. Got it.
CaptainArdee 4 weeks ago
@CaptainArdee I often confuse myself so thats understandable . :p
avanta83 4 weeks ago
@CaptainArdee They used the set up of the original triangle to pretend they were following it - but while adulterous queen found in flagrante would have merited the banishment scene, treating still unmarried go-where-you-please Not Queen Gwen snogging Lancelot like that just felt ridiculous and made Arthur look like a tyrant. Snog another man rather than marry me? You're banished and be thankful I dont execute you. Didnt do a thing for Noble Arthur but I doubt we were meant to ask questions.
avanta83 4 weeks ago
@snet819 Its a bit like as `i said elsewhere replaying Romeo and Juliet in West Side Story and deciding the audience would really prefer a happy ending. So having Romeo actually in love with the girl his parents wanted for him. Its rewriting fictional characters for sure, but it kind of removes their powerful dramatic point. I repeat perfect characters make for poor drama. Human weakness has always been what fuels it.
avanta83 1 month ago
@snet819 I seriously doubt they'll introduce an affair now though - they went to great lengths to make sure they could continue running the A/G romance as a kind of Disney princess thing (IMO) which is regrettable. I say this as someone who has great respect for the acting abilities of Bradley and Angel- I think they and Santiago could have pulled off something spectacular. Angel especially could have really got her teeth into the torture of loving two people, and the guilt of betrayal.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 I'm sorry but isn't delusion to believe something to be which isn't. Early on Gatepromise insisted that Bradley hated Angel and disliked the character Gwen...neither thing is true yet he believed it and did you not state as fact that Lance and Gwen ALWAYS have an affair, I assume you believe it...so if you and he believe these things and they are not true is that not delusion? It's not an insult its a condition...in this case treated with the truth.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819. I can't see anywhere GP says Bradley hates Angel or Gwen, simply that he's not that keen on the AG romance. Please show me where. I said that Lancelot and Guinevere fell in love and had an affair in every version of the legend in which he and she share the stage. Thats true as far as I know - certainly its true of all the major legends which is why the romance lives on today. Its certainly true of the iconic ones the show pretends to be retelling. That is not delusional. Its true.
avanta83 1 month ago
@snet819 Bradley also clearly shares my 'delusion' because he very clearly expected the triangle to happen, with Guinevere more in love with Lancelot than Arthur. He's a great enthusiast for legend as you know. He also seems to feel that the G/A romance isn't loves young dream - and that can only be I assume because of legend rather than the scripts he gets since the show does all it can to Disneyfy the A/G romance. I guess he can join Gate promise and myself in the Snet Delusional Club.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Yes he could if he stated his opinion as fact...only he hasn't. He has said what he believed would happen based on his understanding of the legends...unfortunately for you him and Gatepromise...he's not a writer. This is the creators version not yours. thank heavens...and they get to portray what they want and not have it's reality twisted by your agenda. They get a Gwen of color, they get knights in shiny armor and a talking dragon don't like it...don't watch.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 And back we come to 'don't watch' and accusations of 'twisting'. And talking of twisting..I didn't say Bradley stated his opinion as fact . I said he believed the triangle would happen because he was heavily into legend. And people who are heavily into Arthurian legend know the triangle is iconic.(or as you would say 'delusional')
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 And once again we are indeed back to twisting because neither did I...I said if? No he is not into legend heavily or otherwise if he were and you were you'd understand by now that the writers seem to be marrying original with popular. What is your obsession with guinevere as opposed to gwen or Lancelot vs Lance...we both know who we are talking about...no?
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 Because Im talking about the queen of legend - Guinevere- you're referring to Gwen, the character in the show. Guinevere and lancelot were legendary lovers like Tristan and Isolde and Romeo and Juliet. Gwen is a TV character and 'Lance' is largely fan fiction. The writers are marrying original with popular? You mean they gave people like yourself what they wanted on A/G and never mind the iconic legends? yeah I agree they did that.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 No we are talking about the same characters I'm just shortening their names. Gwen of legend has always loved Lance of legend since. They have not always had an affair. They are iconic sure but this is not the first and won't be the last time they are not end game. So why is it worrying you so much this time?
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 Its not worrying me to the extent any deviation from A/G love seems to be worrying you. Ive said it over and over again but you don't seem to see. The triangle was iconic and I love Arthurian legend. I also really like the show for the main part - in that I see its potential though it often lets me down. I was very disappointed with what they did with the triangle. I can't think of one retelling that they weren't endgame, except the Roman Britain one. Which was a joke.:p
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Wait...so you can't think of one in which they weren't endgame except one in which they weren't endgame...thus making it a joke. SERIOUSLY? Yes I love that Arthur and Gwen love one another but I also recognize that had they done the affair it would have been a valid portrayal. U r the one stuck. U seem to think because they didn't go that route they failed U. Gwen didn't cheat in King Arthur...did that send you to the net decrying blasphemy to all?
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 Good grief. Calm down. The one telling that didn't have then as endgame was set in Roman Britian supposedly before the medieval legends and was completely seperate from them. there was no pretence they were retelling them. Unlike Shine. I was disgusted by the way they treated the G/L/A iconic triangle. How many times must I repeat that? Im entitled to feel that way and express it. I know thats not the way they're portraying it. Whats your point?
avanta83 1 month ago
@snet819 I'd also point out that I haven't said anywhere that I dislike the show - its got its good points for sure though I doubt we'd agree on them. Im simply disgusted with the A/G/L treatment. You seem so invested in this storyline though you see anyone who challenges it as an enemy.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Your argument that I'm invested in this version but your disgust for the A/G/L treatment leaves you what...objective...is childish and circular. You're not my enemy...you are/were simply wrong on the facts. Gwen and Lance have not always had a physical affair In one telling Arthur asked Lance to sleep with Gwen etc. You were wrong. You'll note I never told you we have to agree...but if it disgusts you then why torment yourself by watching?
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 You do twist things Snet. Where did I say the show disgusted me? Please do point it out. Was it the same place GP said A and M are gay? You just make things up. In all major tellings of the the legend G and L were lovers - they are the great lovers of classic Arthurian legend. That is fact. You won't convince me other wise because I know its true. As I said to someone else (polite) on here, try googling Guinevere and ... and see what the top result is.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Are u serious? Read ur post. U said the triangle treatment disgusted u. U said Lancelot and Guinevere always have an affair. Then you turn around and ask when u said it...maybe u should slow down and reread what you write as opposed to asking me. It's not like you have to go back that far.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 I said the triangle treatment disgusted me. I did NOT say the show disgusted me. can you see the difference? There is more to the show than A/G. Had you noticed?
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 yes spreading untruth is lying but as I realize that most people who come on line claiming to "know" legend don't really... I assumed you were uninformed...and not intentionally lying...therefore I spoke the truth...without calling you a liar. Since you are so concerned with name calling one would think you'd note the distinction...slight as it is.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 Im still waiting for the references.Since you know all Arthurian legend and only you are 'informed' I assumed they'd be at your fingertips. You've implied throughout that I was spreading 'untruths' deliberately, not to mention the insults you directed at another poster. I don't see why you'd be squeamish about it now.
avanta83 1 month ago
@gatepromise If you don't need to be spoon feed it's completely believable. They never stopped loving one another. Arthur was hurt and confused...and vacillated over 5 episodes as to what was more important to him his pride or the woman he loved. Maybe you missed 9-13. That must be it because you also missed Gwen telling Arthur for the first time that he meant everything thing to her...that she loved him yet, all you heard Is her saying all I've ever wanted was to be your
snet819 1 month ago
@gatepromise queen" Not that she meant in the way you heard it any way... But yeah their make up was totally realistic. Because despite the fact that we saw how much he truly loved her...it wasn't until he was faced with the finality of death that he could put aside his pride and admit that having her was more important to him than the fact that she kissed another man.
snet819 1 month ago
@gatepromise She (MP) has not missed the point. The point is this is a RE-TELLING of an old legend with many variations, and THIS version is running with the Arthur & Guinevere are in love angle. I don't agree with any of your put-downs. The romance was 4 years in the making, hardly contrived or convoluted. It sounds to me like you'd be HAPPIER with a cartoon version rather than one where people have doubts and flaws and make mistakes.
Celithrathien 1 month ago
@Celithrathien I've PM'd you regarding your last comments to me, but to this I have to say that what would make me happy would be seeing them actually working out their problems. That would be believable and real. Not this sudden--OH, it's twu wuv, even if we hardly know each other at all business. That is simply shallow. Even Bradley James does not like it and he's intimately involved with it. I think that is very telling. I'd have no problem at all if they'd just make it more real & believable
gatepromise 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@gatepromise Bradley James' opinion means nothing to me. He's an actor and paid to do a job. As long as he plays the role convincingly and makes me believe Arthur is in love and happy, I'm good. That's all I care about, being entertained.
Celithrathien 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum The show is using the medieval legends - all the iconic imagery is from these. To cut out one of the most famous and legendary parts of the tale and indeed one of the greatest love pairings in early western literature - Guinevere and Lancelot - is deeply disappointing. If they introduced lancelot as a character at all its 'canon' for him to have an affair with Guinevere that destabilises Camelot. They pandered (I assume) to a vocal part of the audience and gutted the legend.
avanta83 1 month ago
@gatepromise A/G IS canon. Have YOU read the legends? Arthur married Guinevere because he loved her. The earliest version of this legend portray Guinevere as a loyal and loving wife to Arthur. Later on Lancelot was brought into the equation. That said, there is plenty of room to play around with this legend. And since I have always wanted Guinevere to be Arthur's loving and loyal wife, this version delights me.
Celithrathien 1 month ago
@Celithrathien You say A/G is canon and to the extent that they got married in just about all the legends that is true. But that they lived happily ever after is not canon. The legends the show portrays are the medieval ones - NOT the old welsh ones in which Guinevere is a very much less important character. In the medieval legends which introduce Excalibur, the round table etc Guinevere betrays Arthur with Mordred in Monmouth and then with Lancelot in later legends.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 It doesn't matter which legend they play with, the fact remains that Lancelot was not ALWAYS a factor in the relationship between A/G and that *is* canon. If the show chooses to go with the lesser of the well known variations in the treatment of A/G so be it. You don't have to like it, but it doesn't make it untrue or less valid. The series has taken liberty with MANY aspects of the Arthurian legend, so the hissy fit over A/G living "happily ever after" is ridiculous.
Celithrathien 1 month ago
@Celithrathien Well with respect since they introduced Lancelot at all, the canon is that G and L fell in love and had an affair which destabilised Camelot- and in the medieval legends on which the show is based that is also true. If they hadn't introduced him I could see your point. .I don't think having an opinion different to your own constitutes a hissy fit by the way?
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 The hissy fit comment wasn't directed at you, but to the fans who seem to have an issue with the way A/G is being worked in Merlin in general. Your point about canon as respects makes no sense. The writer(s) who introduced Lancelot built on an existing story. Because that person (or persons) introduced Lancelot does not take away from the original. The medieval legends you are clinging to weren't the beginning or the end all of this legend. TBC
Celithrathien 1 month ago
@avanta83 Continuing...It doesn't matter that Lancelot was introduced. The character is not playing the same role nor does he have the same impact as he did in your medieval legends. He is not Guinevere's forever love, not to mention he is *dead.* Morgana and Arthur did not have sex and Mordred is not their son, all of which happened in the medieval legends, so while point is noted it really isn't defensible from the stand point of the story MERLIN telling. TBC
Celithrathien 1 month ago
@avanta83 Continuing...The writers may have indicated that they were going to deal with the main points of the Arthurian legend, but I don't recall them saying they were going to follow them slavishly. And for what it's worth, I'm glad. Because I never liked Lancelot or Guinevere in the medieval legends. He was not honorable or loyal to his king, and she was a cheating s***.
Celithrathien 1 month ago
@Celithrathien I really really don't get your logic Im afraid. You're saying that because the show introduced Lancelot it doesnt matter how they changed his role in legend - thats now canon? In every legend in which he and she appear, he IS Guinevere's great love. I get that you don't like it but its a bit like redoing Romeo and Juliet and deciding you don't fancy the tragedy and so Romeo sticks with the girl his parents chose. G and L are the great lovers of legend, not G and A. TBC
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 TBC. This Gwen is not Gwen of legend nor is this Lance. This Gwen was a servant free to love and marry whomever she chose. Nor TBC in "popular legend" does Gwen always have an affair w/Lance...TBC.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 I don't see what Gwen being free to marry who she liked has to do with it? That doesn't remove the possibility of an affair. I repeat - in every legend featuring G and L they did have an affair. I don't think there can be any doubt that this Gwen is not the Guinevere of legend and nor, since they killed him off before he could do what legend had him do, was this Lancelot. But the violence the show did to the legendary story of G/L and A is undeniable.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 What are you talking about? The show has introduced all the iconic characters in the legend and played with their legendary roles in 'Merlin.' Why is it so hard for you to understand that? You can repeat the every legend Lancelot was Guinevere's great love crap until the cows come home, that doesn't make it so. And even if it did, it's NOT so in 'Merlin.' Guinevere & Arthur are the great love match. I hate to go grade school, but deal with it already.
Celithrathien 3 weeks ago
@Celithrathien Yes it does make it so - and I don't see why you view that as such a threat. You have the onscreen version you want so why you seem to insist on trying to force me to accept that the show has honoured the legend I have no idea. The show has always played with the journey but the destination has met legend. Or perhaps excalibur could have been given to Leon; Arthur could have married Mithian, the round table could have been triangular? And - deal with it? Really? How very grown up.
avanta83 3 weeks ago
@avanta83 This is not personal so I am not threatened by anything you say here. But you are purposely missing the point I'm making. How grown up is that?
Celithrathien 3 weeks ago
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avanta83 3 weeks ago
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@CelithrathienNo Im not purposely missing your point. If Im not getting your point please make it again without the 'deal with it' antics? You're most certainly missing mine though. You don't want 'Gwen' to be like the Guinevere of iconic legend - and yay for you, she isn't. But I don't get why you're trying to insist Guinevere of legend is accurately reproduced in Gwen? Your TV character is how you want her to be. But you're angry because its pointed out iconic legend wasn't like that?
avanta83 3 weeks ago
@Celithrathien As for the show 'taking liberties' with many aspects - they may play with the journey but they stick to the destination. Excalibur is Arthurs magical sword, the round table has the same significance, Guinevere is queen, Mordred and Morgana are Arthur's enemies who'll bring about his downfall. But Lancelot? Uniquely he was introduced but his crucial role in legend has been ripped from him. To please, presumably, people who 'don't like it' because its not very nice.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 "But Lancelot? Uniquely he was introduced but his crucial role in legend has been ripped from him." Really? I'd say his role basically was the same. He came between Guinevere and Arthur. He got Guinevere publicly shamed and exiled, and he was thought to be dishonorable and disloyal to his king. That pretty much sums up Lancelot's his "crucial role" in the legend. Pleasing people had nothing to do with it, working it into this version of the legend is what mattered.
Celithrathien 3 weeks ago
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avanta83 3 weeks ago
@Celithrathien Lancelots role in legend wasn't just to come between G and A and give G a few uncomfortable days in exile. It destroyed G and As relationship and destabilised camelot helping lead to its downfall. How is that what we saw? A blip before a wedding, Lancelot disposed of and dismissed as a first crush, and on as if he never existed. Thats nothing like legend. I'd say pleasing vocal people had a lot to do with why they ran away from one the best emotional dramatic SLs in legend.
avanta83 3 weeks ago
@avanta83 One. More. Time. There is more than one variation of this legend...in some Lancelot had nothing to do with the fall of Camelot because he was never in the story. Why are you having such a problem with that?
Celithrathien 3 weeks ago
@Celithrathien One.More. Time. I know. Have you understood anything I said? Since he's one of the major figures of the medieval legends the show is based on, THEY introduced him. So he (was) in this story. There are no major versions of the medieval legends in which he isn't G's great love. If you can find one, even a minor version, I'd love to see it. You don't want 'Gwen' to be an adulteress - fine, she isnt- but in iconic legend Guinevere was. Why are you having such a problem with that?
avanta83 3 weeks ago
@avanta83 I get that you don't *like* the legend - but thats what it was when Lancelot was in it. Morgana wasn't always Arthurs lover, nor was Mordred always Arthurs son. The G/L love affair is actually one of the most iconic & enduring features of the medieval legend which is why its one of the great love stories of early western literature. Try googling 'Guinevere and..' and see what comes up, even after 4 seasons of 'Merlin' have fanatically pushed Arthur and Gwen.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Try reading a book and don't rely on Google searches to give you all the facts about subject, especially not this one. Your list of great love stories is whacked, because I have NEVER heard Lancelot and Guinevere's adulterous affair classified as one of the great love stories of literature.
Celithrathien 3 weeks ago
@Celithrathien Why are people who like Arwen in this show so aggressive not to mention defensive? Cant you debate without it being unpleasant? I read a lot of books and I also know a fair bit about early literature. If *you* do, then you know that L and G IS one of the great love stories of early Western culture. Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't make it wrong. And yes - you could try googling it.
avanta83 3 weeks ago
@avanta83 I am not being unpleasant. Do you want me to be? LOL Okay, seriously, I'm an English Lit major and no, L/G was never on any great love story list I worked with. Sorry. But you keep on spinning that one.
Celithrathien 3 weeks ago
@Celithrathien No I don't want you to be. I want to be able to debate rationally without personal digs. Is that asking too much? So as an 'English Lit major', G/L wasn't no any great love store list you worked on, so thats that written off? Did you do much work on early Western literature? Tristan and Isolde perhaps?
avanta83 3 weeks ago
@Celithrathien Well not only doesn't she have to like it but not all legends have Lance and Gwen having an affair. People pretend they know the legends but what they really mean is they think they know the popular ones. For instance most scholars don't buy into the Mordred affair. That was Monmouth's take. Gwen would have had no choice once he captured the keep. Not that this is anything but fable mind you.
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 yes we know that not all legends had G and L having an affair but all legends that featured lancelot had he and Guinevere having an affair. These were the popular legends yes - and these are the legends the show is retelling in their own way - not the older welsh ones.The producers *themselves* chose to introduce the G/L/A triangle so THEY chose the legend that involved an affair - just they chose to infantilise it.
avanta83 1 month ago
@avanta83 Even after Lance was introduced not all versions have them having an affair. That is a FACT. Yes she always loved him...but it was not always physical. The fact that this Gwen is free to choose, not forced into a marriage of convenience means she had the choice of marrying for love...which she did. Same tale, she loved them both to some degree, in love with Arthur. BTW one tale had Lance in love with Arthur...not Gwen. Maybe you don't know the legends after all...
snet819 1 month ago
@snet819 In every important medieval legend Guinevere is in love with Lancelot. That is a a fact. Just google it. The whole triangle is supposed to show that earthly paradise - camelot - is destroyed not by external enemies but by human weakness. The triangle is iconic in literature - and nothing you can say will change that. G and L are the epic lovers of legend not G and A This Tv programme has turned it into some Disney thing for kids which is fine if you like that kind of thing.
avanta83 1 month ago
@snet819 As for Lancelot in love with Arthur - no I certainly hadn't heard of that one. Hah! You must tell me more. The TV show had certainly done its utmost to push the idea that G is in love with A not L - thats not in dispute, though for me the A/G chemistry is desperately woefully lacking onscreen. Its simply that that is not what the legend they're covering was about - they turned the triangle into a tale for little kiddies. 'Magic made them do it'. Really.
avanta83 1 month ago
@snet819 I think as well that the idea that Gwen was free to choose therefore could never have an affair is pretty strange too. Its possible she could have married Arthur in love, then things went stale/they drifted apart/she realised she'd loved Lancelot. Having Gwen choose to marry Arthur didn't rule out adultery. Possibly why the producers had to kill off lancelot and play out the triangle so pitifully before the wedding. I was very disillusioned by the show's sad lack of guts. Its allowed.
avanta83 1 month ago
@Celithrathien Well not only doesn't she have to like it but not all legends have Lance and Gwen having an affair. People pretend they know the legends but what they really mean is they think they know the popular ones. For instance most scholars don't buy into the Mordred affair. That was Monmouth's take. Gwen would have had no choice once he captured the keep. Not that this is anything but fable mind you.
snet819 1 month ago
I'm sorry, I'm still giggling over the fact the tavern is called the Hog's Head.
WHY DO THEY DELETE THESE SCENES? Deleted scenes are golden.
harrietdc 1 month ago
So Merlin is wearing Arthur's clothes? Okay. Ugh, why did they cut that scene though? Maybe because it was out of character? Only by a bit though. BUT THEIR BROMANCE IS STRONGER! It shouldn't be out of character for Arthur to mess up Merlin's hair! I shall stop typing now.
squishy300 1 month ago 2
"too girly" HA! No wonder he let Merlin wear it in the last episode....*sniggers*
TheatrePrincess1309 1 month ago 3
@TheatrePrincess1309 He was referring to Princess Elena, not the jacket! :P
roseofreality 1 month ago
Why is Gaius so annoyed ? xD
... I don´t understand why they cut this beautiful scenes...
Redbull85502 1 month ago
WHY THE FUCK DID THEY CUT THE KISS? It was the ONLY Arwen pda I've ever liked. It felt natural. O___o But no, they have to go and cut it, and shoot other scenes with violins or sunlight and AARGHHHHH
MsLyraGW 1 month ago in playlist More videos from SammieGail93 5
@MsLyraGW .i think they cut it cause gwen was talking about lancelot,god fobid gwen got to ralk about lancelot in a way that suggest he was anything more than a stupid high school crush.
anyusa0030 1 month ago
Oh, and the girls are looking GOOD in these scenes. I love the way Morgana walks around like she owns the place.
Ravenya03 1 month ago 7
Dang, I was hoping for at least one more Gwen/Lancelot scene in this episode.
Ah well, the A/G kiss on the cheek was super-cute. And it was nice to see Morgana looking a little regretful after speaking to Lancelot.
Ravenya03 1 month ago 6
@Ravenya03 .i know that morgana lancelot scene was perfect and ketie played it so great,we saw regret,it shows there is still humanity left in her,she still feels something,perfect way to give depth to this character .but no one dimentional vilian is attractive to the writers so .
anyusa0030 1 month ago
Omggggggg omggggg whoever deletes scenes needs a good slap!!
The scene with nervous Arthur and the one where he kisses Gwen are just both so PERFECT!!
Ughhh what were they thinking!!
I'm going to pretend they were in the episode
roseofreality 1 month ago 11