maybe its just because im not standing in front of our desk, but i cant seem to get the routing figured out in my head. we have a 48 channel apb dynasonics spectra console, which i absolutely adore. my confusion stems from how i would assign things and where i would put the comps and such. to make things easy, lets just pretend im doing vocals for this example. our board has 10 vcas, and 10 auxes, with insert points on both auxes. cant fit everything i want to type.
@christopheronald like lets say i have 3 vocal channels, and i assign vocal channels 1 2 and 3 to aux one and two, which i have a stereo comp on. do i have the individual channels going to the mains, or just the aux? lets say we are doing this with vca 1 and 2. what do i assign to what? sorry if this seems trivial. it just hasnt clicked for me yet. gonna nap on it :)
@www73171 i think my problem is that i cannot assign auxes to a vca on our console. we have a apb dynasonics spectra 48 channel. insert points on the auxes, so i can send stuff to comps easy, i just cant assign all of those comps/auxes to a vca, and band between everything like you suggest in this video. sound right? ha
@christopheronald So if you cant assign aux/groups to VCA's just assign all the inputs to a VCA which will be the pre comp-threshold volume control and then use your master left/right as post comp threshold control. Turning the VCA up and L/R down causes more compression and turning the VCA down and L/R up results in less overall compression.
correct me if I'm wrong maybe I didn't pay attention. You talk about vca 10 being all inputs (pre comp) and vca 11 all groups which are compressed. You then say using more of vca 10 and less of 11 gives you a more compressed sound and more of 11 and less of 10 gives you less compressed sound. Isn't it the other way around as you're introducing less compression with vca 10 and more with vca 11?
Hey Dave can we apply all this strategy to Digital Consoles?I mean the 0 Db in Tresholds...etc...If not How would it be? And second, Do you compress individual input channels intruments or just the groups?Thanks
Hey Dave, I've been using a similar strategy to this for about a year now, so THANK YOU for posting this. It has taken all of the pain out of mixing big heavy bands. Getting the vocals to cut in some of these REALLY small venues was hard, but with them compressed right in the sub groups I can keep my mix sounding right even with the biggest hairiest metal bands.
@brainz11203 Compressing individually does not give the same result. If you have vocals individually compressed, each would hit a certain level before compressing but together the combination will be louder. If the vocals are mixed together and then compressed, then one vocal, the other vocal or both together will all compress at the same threshold.
Guyz i need help. i have 10 Aux on my mixer,last night i wanted to use in ear monitor,now when i plugged jack cable in, sound dissapers,when i use aux send works but i cant control master aux fader to make it louder or lower so anyone can help out ?dave?
@6sebastiancol Yes, I route vox effects to the vox groups and drum effects to drum groups. The reason is that when the compressor kick in during the initial sounds, the effects are compressed as well preventing them from hindering intelligibility of the primary signal, then when the comp releases the effect come up a bit in volume. This has the overall effect of increasing clarity and reducing the amount of effects level needed.
I used the sub compression strat last night at a gig with a loud 5 piece, and it was GREAT!! The vocals always shown through and I had to do very little mixing. Thank you for posting this, it just made my FOH life 100x easier.
Pretty cool Dave, I used to work in that but had to leave it because of ringing in my ears. I miss alot and I wish my hears could still handle the loud music.
Very interesting approach! I work in a different manner, but I might use some of your ideas sometimes - the way you use VCA vs Compressors is brilliant!
At 3:55 you said that linking comps monoizes the sound, in my experience it works quite contrary: imagine a loud tom sound on L channel leaking to R channel (this is natural if you have 2 toms panned L-R) - unlinked comp lowers the level of L ch only, allowing the leaked R to reach a higher level in comparison.
@roosoomak Linking comps on a stereo group causes two main issues. 1) if you have two guitars panned somewhat left and right, when one guitar gets louder it causes the other to be turned down, the opposite of what we would want. 2) with a single stereo guitar any volume differential between the sides causes a gain reduction on both sides which sounds mono-ish keeping the stereo image but reducing the effect of the sound pulling to one side or the other, which sound more stereo.
Hi Dave, At 2:30 you mention putting compressors on each one of the groups. You say 10 compressors. There are only 6 groups you have created. I'm a little bit confused. Do you mean 6 stereo compressors (unlinked)? I'm setting a rig up using your recommendations. Just wanted some clarification I am understanding the setup correctly. Thanks for the videos. Very helpful and much appreciated.
@e4g1e1 I use a fairly quick attack to catch the initial peaks and avoid the sound from jumping out and then pulling back. I use a medium fast release so there is no lagging recovery yet slow enough to avoid audible pumping.
ooooh . . .look at Dave being al "normal guy-ish." The reallity is that Dave Rat could easily replace the Dos Equis guy as "Most interesting man in the world."
@flipflopsrawesome1 Each channel has assignment buttons that allow you to route that channel to the sub group of choice or multiples of groups or multiple channels to any group. Pretty much the same as a digital board except they are mechanical buttons.
It sounds like you might mix stereo. Is this true? If so, what for? I've been wrestling with the stereo question for years and have always answered it by the coverage point of view, which mostly dictates a mono mix. Stereo is fun and all, but the percentage of the audience that would appreciate it in most venues would be less than 1/3 and the rest would suffer. I would think that larger venues in which a man of your caliber finds himself would demand a mono mix. Thoughts?
@xwification Stereo not only increases the quality of the sonic experience it also adds critical advantages. Namely, if you send differing versions of the signal to left & right, both sides can be equally audible & tonally balanced yet the center buildup is reduced as are phasing issues between L & R. There are numerous other methods to take advantage of stereo without diluting sound quality in one side or the other. Mixing mono is severely limiting & actually creates a major issue centered.
It is indeed, the only difference is that you have to adjust the channel faders up and down to adjust the signal sent to the compressors instead of using the VCA fader. Although you cant adjust all the faders at the same time (you would need a lot of fingers), it works great on for example vocals. if for example you´ve got 3 vocals, you can adjust the three channel faders with one hand, while adjusting the vocal group with the other hand. Bit more work, but it works just fine:)
@thebrokencord1 It is indeed, the only difference is that you have to adjust the channel faders up and down to adjust the signal sent to the compressors instead of using the VCA fader. Although you cant adjust all the faders at the same time (you would need a lot of fingers), it works great on for example vocals. if for example you´ve got 3 vocals, you can adjust the three channel faders with one hand, while adjusting the vocal group with the other hand. Bit more work, but it works just fine:)
One question, I'm trying this and not getting a good result. If all the channels are sent to a VCA without comp, and then everything is also sent into groups where it is comped. WHen you pull back the VCA for the "non comped" channels, that decreases what is being sent to the comped groups as well does it not? Or am I setting this up wrong?
@Dieselishot Signal is not 'sent' to a VCA, rather, a fader(s) is assigned to a VCA that acts as a remote control for the fader(s). The comps are inserted on the groups. So.... the VCA acts as a pre comp level control and the group fader acts as a post comp level control. Bringing up the VCA and down the group in effect lowers your comp thresholds without changing volume. Bringing up groups and down VCA's in effect raises the comp thresholds.
@www73171 Yeah I used bad terminology, sorry lol. But my question is that if all the faders are assigned to VCA 10, and then all the groups to VCA 11, doesn't turning VCA 10 down affect VCA 11 as well because the groups are getting their signal based on where the faders are, therefore turning VCA 10 will lower the amount of signal going to the groups, which lowers the amount of signal being sent by the groups?
@Dieselishot yes, turning down 10 would turn down inputs and signal sent to groups and therefore signal leaving groups would lower as well. but is you were to compensate bringing VCA 11up the same amount as you bring VCA 10 down, the output will be the same with only the comp threshold changing. This grandmaster comp threshold control is a very powerful tool. Same with each group pair/VCA.
I can see how this strategy would give you a good bit of auto pilot and still let the band mix themselves via their natural dynamics. Thanks for the knowledge!
@brunton82 clean signal is just that. most likely just bass. dirty might be like with a slight bit of distortion or fuzz or something like that. just like on a guitar. clean channel, and distorted.
Great vid! I've got a question for you, though: How would you change groupings and compression if your main system were true LCR instead of normal stereo?
@outjet I only compress vocals individually if the a particular singer is inconsistent in volume, IE shouts then sings soft. If he/she stay fairly even, I don't use the extra comps on individual channels.
Ive never thought to assign groups to vca's. very interesting technique blending the compression and virgin vca's to suite the feel of the song. great work!
used this method last night on a midas legend 32. Worked great! Too bad the TL audio comp wasnt workin for vox :( Does anyone know what the use of the ambience send on the mix busses is for??
Hey Dave... im the engineer at my church we have about 16 compressors. we individually compress 9 vox mics do you think i should still use the threshold 0 ratio 3:1 settings or something diffrent since it isnt group compression
@brainz11203 It really depends on the singer. If they are shouters then higher ratios are good, if they sing even volume or sing far from the mic, then less compression is good.
@ermollejuo I use Midas H3000's and XL4 usually but even mid line Mackie, soundcraft, and other manufacturers offer boards are capable of setting up group comps.
Hello Dave, checking out your Video's with great interest! One question I can't seem to find the answer on, or maybe I'm not looking in the right place, is what equipment is needed for a good sounding basic system. This would be more for a vocal band 5-4 piece. I have 20 channel powered mixer, Monitor Amp, SP2 speakers and a few Microphones, Thanks!
@ASVmeRC30 try prosoundweb com and ratsound com forums. There are people there that are more familiar with current stuff and PA systems on that scale.
hey dave great vids, really helping me out! By any chance were you on a tour recently that played Dublin's o2 arena? Maybe Blink or someone? You look kinda familiar!
@mattfender I mixed Blink 182 last European tour. I do a blog of tours and such at ratsound(dot)com/cblog and there is a bunch more info and articles and such at daverat(dot)com if you are interested
@www73171 Had a look at your blog there pretyy interesting. I remember those screens, bitch to fly! Yeah so it was the blink gig i recognise ye from, I think your system engineer or some form of sound tech put on family guy for us while we were waiting for multi, who says local crew is a crap job! Will say hi if I see you next time!
man, again... great videos. I wish I could apprentice someone with as much info as you've got. Very interesting stuff... and I know very little about it which makes it that much more interesting.
Hey man your videos are so interesting, im constantly learning more. Im currently on a small club national us tour and was wondering if I should use about the same compression tricks or slightly more since its a smaller stage to pa ratio. thanks!
p.s. what would it take to apprentice under you!! this is my passion but i need a mentor haha
@soundguyricky I pretty much try and use the same setup regardless of venue size. Since you have the compression amount readily available and can adjust as needed. As far as apprentice, I think I am a bit too scattered for that kind of an adventure but will try an keep doing videos. I would love to teach a seminar of sorts but would need an organizational human to set up the logistics and such.
Hey I have a question, maybe its been answered already but what attack and response setting do you use on your VCA comps? quick on both or follow the instrument type (fast on vox, slow on drums etc)? I would love to know because this has been fantastic for me to implement but that is my lingering question. Thanks you rock!
@scottbradford06 I use a fairly fast attack and release time. I only use a 3:1 or 4:1 compression, and set the comps to just compress 2 or 3 db. So with all those separate comps and not a lot of compression, it is pretty tough to hear the comps your have pletty of leeway on the attack and release settings.
@scottbradford06 I use a moderate speed attack and release. But since I do not use a lot of compression, it is pretty forgiving. You may need to do some digging but I have posted pictures of my front of house racks on my blog, and you can see my actual setups and settings for Peppers and Blink 182 tours.
@scottbradford06 Oh, also, you may need to do some digging but I have posted pics of my FOH racks from Blink 182 and Peppers tours on my blog, and you should be able to see the settings I used.
Hey I have a question, maybe its been answered already but what attack and response setting do you use on your VCA comps? quick on both or follow the instrument type (fast on vox, slow on drums etc)? I would love to know because this has been fantastic for me to implement but that is my lingering question. Thanks you rock!
Should I for example, bearing in mind I only have stereo compression (L+R) to play with , send all my mix other than vocals to 1+2 stereo group with its own compression. Then send vocals to 3+4 stereo group with seperate compression and then send that all too the mix?
Or should i utilise the compression for seperate insert channels i.e vocals and so on so fourth?
I have currently taken over as in house sound engineer of a club which does not have the money for this sort of mix capability. All "groups" are stereo with one insert for left and right faders for each and only two of them in total! (this equals to four faders and two inserts and two direct outs)
Although I'm not anywhere near the level where u guys were, but as a person who have no chance to be trained professionally, I just couldn't keep jaws from dropping on the floor
hi dave, can you upload more videos about mixing technics, perhaps some more videos about monitor mixing and how to get really fast a good monitorsound for the musicans. thx.
did a festival last week and used this method and found it work GREAT! thanks got a lot of good feedback, thanks as always- an old dog learning new tricks.
@danielobrien8 Awesome! Thank you for the update and glad it worked for you. I find that the setup makes my job much easier and the beauty is that you can slide out of the group compression easily with no negative side effects during the show if it is not working for ya..
awesome strategy... i really like the ability to change the overall compression on the fly! thats a really powerfull way to keep a versatile band in tact at all times!
@elmatula No, I do not pre compress except for special circumstances. For example, Flea sings at one volume but also like to do an occasional shout or high volume noises, I pre compress actually limit) flea so that it keeps him from getting too loud. Also with acoustic guitars I often channel compress to even out the sound a bit as the group compressors are not a very high ratio.
great stuff man, i'm new at mixing but i've played in a band for years and played through some huge p.a 's . I was always amazed at the control and dynamics of mixing but never really understood it, this vid explains a lot good stuff !!!
hey dave when u put compressor on stero subgrps and u put 0 treshold is it so that then compressor does not do anything with it?and if u had some keyboards at stage would u put it in same grp as guitars or make othe stero grp?
@ThaDeka "0" threshold is a level setting also called nominal. It just means that the compressors start compressing when the meters reach "0" which is about 3/4 of the way up.
If I run out of groups I usually put keyboards in with toms.
Hey Dave, I'm a student at the New England School of Communications for Live Sound Engineering. Thanks for the tips! What kind of console do you use for your shows? or what do you prefer?
@soundhead18 I usually carry a Midas H3000 but fine with an XL4, verona or seina. I am good with most analog boards though that are of reasonable quality.
@danielobrien8 Not yet, but I try to keep my channel counts as low as possible. One exception is when I parallel drum gate, will try and get a video done on that subject as it works really well.
Thanks man! Superbly explained. Now all I gotta do is get hold of a big desk and ten compressors! - and practice the art of mixing for ten years. Excellent tutorial many thanks. Peace.
@tomzeeman I always mix with I guess what you could call "logical fader mixing" where I set the gains such that the faders sit in what I consider logical positions for that artist. That way my mix looks correct to me on the faders when it sounds correct.
@joevaq71 hmmm, maybe a line check sound check vid I could do. As I have some unconventional ways of sound checking that I feel work well. Gain structure is a pretty well beaten subject and all I do is set my faders where I want to see them and turn the gains up till I get the level I am looking for.
@Joelito2k9 A VCA technically means "voltage controlled amplifier." DCA means "digitally controlled amplifier" which does exactly the same thing but since it is technically different as there is not actually a true "VCA" in a digi board, they use a more correct name.
DCA means digital controlled amps. so you will find them in digital boards. VCA means voltage controlled amps, so you will only find them in analouge boards ;)
Great vid Dave! I really like your thoughts on running the VCAs before and after the group comps to manage overall dynamics. I'll definitely be trying that out at the first club that has enough VCAs.
I've always loved the behind the scenes view of things, and this was wonderfully in-depth. Given there's so much more than what's been presented here going on, this is just sage advice for someone who's trying to learn how to mix a live environment.
Damn right, I thought the same thing. I'm not a sound guy either just a musician but this seems like a very well thought out and tried method, simple too.
great strategy..... basic simple and probably the best used setup.....great vid!!!!
aloysiuswinfrey 5 days ago
yeah i dont quite understand the VCA 10 and 11 situation! :/
neloangelo678 2 weeks ago
thank You very much for sharing. Respect to all of you in the bussines!
tomazy001 3 weeks ago
maybe its just because im not standing in front of our desk, but i cant seem to get the routing figured out in my head. we have a 48 channel apb dynasonics spectra console, which i absolutely adore. my confusion stems from how i would assign things and where i would put the comps and such. to make things easy, lets just pretend im doing vocals for this example. our board has 10 vcas, and 10 auxes, with insert points on both auxes. cant fit everything i want to type.
christopheronald 1 month ago
@christopheronald like lets say i have 3 vocal channels, and i assign vocal channels 1 2 and 3 to aux one and two, which i have a stereo comp on. do i have the individual channels going to the mains, or just the aux? lets say we are doing this with vca 1 and 2. what do i assign to what? sorry if this seems trivial. it just hasnt clicked for me yet. gonna nap on it :)
christopheronald 1 month ago
@christopheronald Assign the Vox to subgroups 1 and 2, put the comps on the subgroups. send the sub groups to L and R
www73171 1 month ago
@www73171 i think my problem is that i cannot assign auxes to a vca on our console. we have a apb dynasonics spectra 48 channel. insert points on the auxes, so i can send stuff to comps easy, i just cant assign all of those comps/auxes to a vca, and band between everything like you suggest in this video. sound right? ha
christopheronald 1 month ago
@christopheronald So if you cant assign aux/groups to VCA's just assign all the inputs to a VCA which will be the pre comp-threshold volume control and then use your master left/right as post comp threshold control. Turning the VCA up and L/R down causes more compression and turning the VCA down and L/R up results in less overall compression.
www73171 4 weeks ago
@www73171 great idea. ill mess with it this week. thanks for the heads up.
christopheronald 4 weeks ago
correct me if I'm wrong maybe I didn't pay attention. You talk about vca 10 being all inputs (pre comp) and vca 11 all groups which are compressed. You then say using more of vca 10 and less of 11 gives you a more compressed sound and more of 11 and less of 10 gives you less compressed sound. Isn't it the other way around as you're introducing less compression with vca 10 and more with vca 11?
SOUNDMANDAVED 1 month ago
...and if you don't compress individually how do you do not to clip the channels?Low gain settings? Abrazo form Brasil!
janelamarela 2 months ago
Hey Dave can we apply all this strategy to Digital Consoles?I mean the 0 Db in Tresholds...etc...If not How would it be? And second, Do you compress individual input channels intruments or just the groups?Thanks
janelamarela 2 months ago
Essentially, a live parallel compression setup. Nice!
Buhzie15 2 months ago
How would you effectivly keep main vocalist on top of the BGV's
jheffner1 2 months ago
Very cool of you to share. Thank you.
theonlyalexoliveira 3 months ago
It would be amazing to intern for this guy and learn from first hand to be a good sound engineer.
BnHwrd 4 months ago in playlist More videos from www73171
Hey Dave, I've been using a similar strategy to this for about a year now, so THANK YOU for posting this. It has taken all of the pain out of mixing big heavy bands. Getting the vocals to cut in some of these REALLY small venues was hard, but with them compressed right in the sub groups I can keep my mix sounding right even with the biggest hairiest metal bands.
InstantReverbPro 4 months ago in playlist Dave Rat videos
@InstantReverbPro Cool! Yes, it works well and makes mixing a better sound much easier.
www73171 4 months ago
so if i decided to compress each instrument individually do i follow the same steps? thresh hold to 0 etc..
brainz11203 4 months ago
@brainz11203 Compressing individually does not give the same result. If you have vocals individually compressed, each would hit a certain level before compressing but together the combination will be louder. If the vocals are mixed together and then compressed, then one vocal, the other vocal or both together will all compress at the same threshold.
www73171 4 months ago
Guyz i need help. i have 10 Aux on my mixer,last night i wanted to use in ear monitor,now when i plugged jack cable in, sound dissapers,when i use aux send works but i cant control master aux fader to make it louder or lower so anyone can help out ?dave?
greetings
ThaDeka 5 months ago
thanks for the videos Dave,so do you send the vocals fx to the vocal stereo group before its gets compressed?, if you do, can you tell me again why?
6sebastiancol 5 months ago
@6sebastiancol Yes, I route vox effects to the vox groups and drum effects to drum groups. The reason is that when the compressor kick in during the initial sounds, the effects are compressed as well preventing them from hindering intelligibility of the primary signal, then when the comp releases the effect come up a bit in volume. This has the overall effect of increasing clarity and reducing the amount of effects level needed.
www73171 5 months ago
@www73171 thanks Dave, by the way I hope the concert in my country (Colombia) will be awesome as usual
6sebastiancol 5 months ago
I used the sub compression strat last night at a gig with a loud 5 piece, and it was GREAT!! The vocals always shown through and I had to do very little mixing. Thank you for posting this, it just made my FOH life 100x easier.
InstantReverbPro 6 months ago
You remind of Sean Penn in Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Duuuuuuuude!
wildnites558 6 months ago
@wildnites558 Perfect!
www73171 6 months ago
Pretty cool Dave, I used to work in that but had to leave it because of ringing in my ears. I miss alot and I wish my hears could still handle the loud music.
delacerdaa 6 months ago
Great advice Dave. I just got my first Engineering job - you've made me even more excited to get going. Thanks!
Tigbityho 8 months ago
But I wouldn't LINK them, anyway :)
roosoomak 9 months ago
Very interesting approach! I work in a different manner, but I might use some of your ideas sometimes - the way you use VCA vs Compressors is brilliant!
At 3:55 you said that linking comps monoizes the sound, in my experience it works quite contrary: imagine a loud tom sound on L channel leaking to R channel (this is natural if you have 2 toms panned L-R) - unlinked comp lowers the level of L ch only, allowing the leaked R to reach a higher level in comparison.
But I wouldn't them, anyway :)
roosoomak 9 months ago
@roosoomak Linking comps on a stereo group causes two main issues. 1) if you have two guitars panned somewhat left and right, when one guitar gets louder it causes the other to be turned down, the opposite of what we would want. 2) with a single stereo guitar any volume differential between the sides causes a gain reduction on both sides which sounds mono-ish keeping the stereo image but reducing the effect of the sound pulling to one side or the other, which sound more stereo.
www73171 9 months ago
@www73171
Thanks for your comment, I got your point now :-)
roosoomak 9 months ago
Hi Dave, At 2:30 you mention putting compressors on each one of the groups. You say 10 compressors. There are only 6 groups you have created. I'm a little bit confused. Do you mean 6 stereo compressors (unlinked)? I'm setting a rig up using your recommendations. Just wanted some clarification I am understanding the setup correctly. Thanks for the videos. Very helpful and much appreciated.
klay2000 9 months ago
@klay2000 Stereo Vocals, Stereo Guitar, Mono Bass, Mono Kick/Snare, Stereo Toms, Stereo Metal stuff (cymbals/HH) totals 10 groups. Cool cool, let me know how it goes!
www73171 9 months ago
What kind of Attack and Release times would you use on those compressors? Or would it vary on the instrument itself? Very helpful video Btw :D
e4g1e1 9 months ago
@e4g1e1 I use a fairly quick attack to catch the initial peaks and avoid the sound from jumping out and then pulling back. I use a medium fast release so there is no lagging recovery yet slow enough to avoid audible pumping.
www73171 9 months ago
ooooh . . .look at Dave being al "normal guy-ish." The reallity is that Dave Rat could easily replace the Dos Equis guy as "Most interesting man in the world."
kcimpact 9 months ago
I'm not sure if anyone has asked this yet.
How do you route multiple channels into a subgroup on an analouge mixer?
In DAW's you just click a button (so to speak) and it happens. How do you do it manually?
flipflopsrawesome1 10 months ago
@flipflopsrawesome1 Each channel has assignment buttons that allow you to route that channel to the sub group of choice or multiples of groups or multiple channels to any group. Pretty much the same as a digital board except they are mechanical buttons.
www73171 10 months ago
It sounds like you might mix stereo. Is this true? If so, what for? I've been wrestling with the stereo question for years and have always answered it by the coverage point of view, which mostly dictates a mono mix. Stereo is fun and all, but the percentage of the audience that would appreciate it in most venues would be less than 1/3 and the rest would suffer. I would think that larger venues in which a man of your caliber finds himself would demand a mono mix. Thoughts?
xwification 10 months ago
@xwification Stereo not only increases the quality of the sonic experience it also adds critical advantages. Namely, if you send differing versions of the signal to left & right, both sides can be equally audible & tonally balanced yet the center buildup is reduced as are phasing issues between L & R. There are numerous other methods to take advantage of stereo without diluting sound quality in one side or the other. Mixing mono is severely limiting & actually creates a major issue centered.
www73171 10 months ago
Thanks for that, i'd love to know more about how and when to use VCA'S if you have any pointers?
thebrokencord1 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Is it still effective to use this strategy if you don't have VCA's? Is it a good idea to group the instruments and put comps on each group?
Thanks
thebrokencord1 11 months ago
Is it still effective to use this strategy if you don't have VCA's? Is it a good idea to group the instruments and put comps on each group?
Thanks
thebrokencord1 11 months ago
@thebrokencord1
It is indeed, the only difference is that you have to adjust the channel faders up and down to adjust the signal sent to the compressors instead of using the VCA fader. Although you cant adjust all the faders at the same time (you would need a lot of fingers), it works great on for example vocals. if for example you´ve got 3 vocals, you can adjust the three channel faders with one hand, while adjusting the vocal group with the other hand. Bit more work, but it works just fine:)
e4gle 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@thebrokencord1 It is indeed, the only difference is that you have to adjust the channel faders up and down to adjust the signal sent to the compressors instead of using the VCA fader. Although you cant adjust all the faders at the same time (you would need a lot of fingers), it works great on for example vocals. if for example you´ve got 3 vocals, you can adjust the three channel faders with one hand, while adjusting the vocal group with the other hand. Bit more work, but it works just fine:)
e4gle 11 months ago
One question, I'm trying this and not getting a good result. If all the channels are sent to a VCA without comp, and then everything is also sent into groups where it is comped. WHen you pull back the VCA for the "non comped" channels, that decreases what is being sent to the comped groups as well does it not? Or am I setting this up wrong?
Dieselishot 11 months ago
@Dieselishot Signal is not 'sent' to a VCA, rather, a fader(s) is assigned to a VCA that acts as a remote control for the fader(s). The comps are inserted on the groups. So.... the VCA acts as a pre comp level control and the group fader acts as a post comp level control. Bringing up the VCA and down the group in effect lowers your comp thresholds without changing volume. Bringing up groups and down VCA's in effect raises the comp thresholds.
www73171 11 months ago
Comment removed
Dieselishot 11 months ago
@www73171 Yeah I used bad terminology, sorry lol. But my question is that if all the faders are assigned to VCA 10, and then all the groups to VCA 11, doesn't turning VCA 10 down affect VCA 11 as well because the groups are getting their signal based on where the faders are, therefore turning VCA 10 will lower the amount of signal going to the groups, which lowers the amount of signal being sent by the groups?
Dieselishot 11 months ago
@Dieselishot yes, turning down 10 would turn down inputs and signal sent to groups and therefore signal leaving groups would lower as well. but is you were to compensate bringing VCA 11up the same amount as you bring VCA 10 down, the output will be the same with only the comp threshold changing. This grandmaster comp threshold control is a very powerful tool. Same with each group pair/VCA.
www73171 11 months ago
Hey Dave, how about you sponsor me and send me a sweet little system I can mix with?
You'd be the first to hook up a broke college kid with a PA!
But seriously hahaha
rclark381 11 months ago
Very cool Dave!
I can see how this strategy would give you a good bit of auto pilot and still let the band mix themselves via their natural dynamics. Thanks for the knowledge!
Stuloud 11 months ago
Can some one tell me what clean and dirty di mean? is it di before any pedals for the clean and di after pedals for dirty?
brunton82 11 months ago
Can some one tell me what clean and dirty di mean? is it di before any pedals for the clean and di after pedals for dirty?
brunton82 11 months ago
@brunton82 clean signal is just that. most likely just bass. dirty might be like with a slight bit of distortion or fuzz or something like that. just like on a guitar. clean channel, and distorted.
christopheronald 1 month ago
Great vid! I've got a question for you, though: How would you change groupings and compression if your main system were true LCR instead of normal stereo?
GrandMasterIV 11 months ago
Are you compressing your vocals individually first, then re-compressing at the subgroup, or only at the subgroup?
outjet 11 months ago
@outjet I only compress vocals individually if the a particular singer is inconsistent in volume, IE shouts then sings soft. If he/she stay fairly even, I don't use the extra comps on individual channels.
www73171 11 months ago
I've watched this a few times over, and I'm always learning something new. What I learned this time around:
There's a freakin' giraffe on the wall.
joshjyang 1 year ago
really great Tips!!! Thank you!
muttertheresala 1 year ago
Ive never thought to assign groups to vca's. very interesting technique blending the compression and virgin vca's to suite the feel of the song. great work!
gilesstocks 1 year ago
used this method last night on a midas legend 32. Worked great! Too bad the TL audio comp wasnt workin for vox :( Does anyone know what the use of the ambience send on the mix busses is for??
mattfender 1 year ago
Hey Dave... im the engineer at my church we have about 16 compressors. we individually compress 9 vox mics do you think i should still use the threshold 0 ratio 3:1 settings or something diffrent since it isnt group compression
brainz11203 1 year ago
@brainz11203 It really depends on the singer. If they are shouters then higher ratios are good, if they sing even volume or sing far from the mic, then less compression is good.
www73171 1 year ago
with what board you have all this options ?
ermollejuo 1 year ago
@ermollejuo I use Midas H3000's and XL4 usually but even mid line Mackie, soundcraft, and other manufacturers offer boards are capable of setting up group comps.
www73171 1 year ago
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alecglenn58 1 year ago
Hello Dave, checking out your Video's with great interest! One question I can't seem to find the answer on, or maybe I'm not looking in the right place, is what equipment is needed for a good sounding basic system. This would be more for a vocal band 5-4 piece. I have 20 channel powered mixer, Monitor Amp, SP2 speakers and a few Microphones, Thanks!
Bob
ASVmeRC30 1 year ago
@ASVmeRC30 try prosoundweb com and ratsound com forums. There are people there that are more familiar with current stuff and PA systems on that scale.
www73171 1 year ago
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upuliify 1 year ago
hey dave great vids, really helping me out! By any chance were you on a tour recently that played Dublin's o2 arena? Maybe Blink or someone? You look kinda familiar!
mattfender 1 year ago
@mattfender I mixed Blink 182 last European tour. I do a blog of tours and such at ratsound(dot)com/cblog and there is a bunch more info and articles and such at daverat(dot)com if you are interested
www73171 1 year ago
@www73171 Had a look at your blog there pretyy interesting. I remember those screens, bitch to fly! Yeah so it was the blink gig i recognise ye from, I think your system engineer or some form of sound tech put on family guy for us while we were waiting for multi, who says local crew is a crap job! Will say hi if I see you next time!
mattfender 1 year ago
so do you start with both vca's at unity or do you have a common starting fader ratio?
epsonscanner2 1 year ago
@epsonscanner2 I usually try and start with the VCA's and groups at 0.
www73171 1 year ago
man, again... great videos. I wish I could apprentice someone with as much info as you've got. Very interesting stuff... and I know very little about it which makes it that much more interesting.
Medium0Rare 1 year ago
Hey man your videos are so interesting, im constantly learning more. Im currently on a small club national us tour and was wondering if I should use about the same compression tricks or slightly more since its a smaller stage to pa ratio. thanks!
p.s. what would it take to apprentice under you!! this is my passion but i need a mentor haha
soundguyricky 1 year ago
@soundguyricky I pretty much try and use the same setup regardless of venue size. Since you have the compression amount readily available and can adjust as needed. As far as apprentice, I think I am a bit too scattered for that kind of an adventure but will try an keep doing videos. I would love to teach a seminar of sorts but would need an organizational human to set up the logistics and such.
www73171 1 year ago
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soundguyricky 1 year ago
Hey I have a question, maybe its been answered already but what attack and response setting do you use on your VCA comps? quick on both or follow the instrument type (fast on vox, slow on drums etc)? I would love to know because this has been fantastic for me to implement but that is my lingering question. Thanks you rock!
scottbradford06 1 year ago 2
@scottbradford06 I use a fairly fast attack and release time. I only use a 3:1 or 4:1 compression, and set the comps to just compress 2 or 3 db. So with all those separate comps and not a lot of compression, it is pretty tough to hear the comps your have pletty of leeway on the attack and release settings.
www73171 1 year ago
@scottbradford06 I use a moderate speed attack and release. But since I do not use a lot of compression, it is pretty forgiving. You may need to do some digging but I have posted pictures of my front of house racks on my blog, and you can see my actual setups and settings for Peppers and Blink 182 tours.
www73171 1 year ago
@scottbradford06 Oh, also, you may need to do some digging but I have posted pics of my FOH racks from Blink 182 and Peppers tours on my blog, and you should be able to see the settings I used.
www73171 1 year ago
Hey I have a question, maybe its been answered already but what attack and response setting do you use on your VCA comps? quick on both or follow the instrument type (fast on vox, slow on drums etc)? I would love to know because this has been fantastic for me to implement but that is my lingering question. Thanks you rock!
scottbradford06 1 year ago
this is the fucking best idea I have ever heard ... thanks dude
thetrainthetrain 1 year ago
Should I for example, bearing in mind I only have stereo compression (L+R) to play with , send all my mix other than vocals to 1+2 stereo group with its own compression. Then send vocals to 3+4 stereo group with seperate compression and then send that all too the mix?
Or should i utilise the compression for seperate insert channels i.e vocals and so on so fourth?
bobjam24 1 year ago
@bobjam24 Compressing the vocals separately is generally a good idea. That stops instruments from dropping vocal levels.
www73171 1 year ago
I have currently taken over as in house sound engineer of a club which does not have the money for this sort of mix capability. All "groups" are stereo with one insert for left and right faders for each and only two of them in total! (this equals to four faders and two inserts and two direct outs)
bobjam24 1 year ago
this was fucking brilliant
SoFuckForever 1 year ago
wish there will be more about mix strategy in the coming vids. Thanks a lot!
kenoir 1 year ago
Although I'm not anywhere near the level where u guys were, but as a person who have no chance to be trained professionally, I just couldn't keep jaws from dropping on the floor
Tonnes of thanks!
kenoir 1 year ago
hi dave, can you upload more videos about mixing technics, perhaps some more videos about monitor mixing and how to get really fast a good monitorsound for the musicans. thx.
highspooky 1 year ago
did a festival last week and used this method and found it work GREAT! thanks got a lot of good feedback, thanks as always- an old dog learning new tricks.
danielobrien8 1 year ago
@danielobrien8 Awesome! Thank you for the update and glad it worked for you. I find that the setup makes my job much easier and the beauty is that you can slide out of the group compression easily with no negative side effects during the show if it is not working for ya..
www73171 1 year ago
awesome strategy... i really like the ability to change the overall compression on the fly! thats a really powerfull way to keep a versatile band in tact at all times!
slo77y 1 year ago
Thanks Dave! love you man...
rudiebassic 1 year ago
You assign kicks and snares to a group and you compress it. My question is, do you pre-compress each kick and snare individually before doing that?
elmatula 1 year ago
@elmatula No, I do not pre compress except for special circumstances. For example, Flea sings at one volume but also like to do an occasional shout or high volume noises, I pre compress actually limit) flea so that it keeps him from getting too loud. Also with acoustic guitars I often channel compress to even out the sound a bit as the group compressors are not a very high ratio.
www73171 1 year ago
great stuff man, i'm new at mixing but i've played in a band for years and played through some huge p.a 's . I was always amazed at the control and dynamics of mixing but never really understood it, this vid explains a lot good stuff !!!
pimpbutterNjam 1 year ago
hey dave when u put compressor on stero subgrps and u put 0 treshold is it so that then compressor does not do anything with it?and if u had some keyboards at stage would u put it in same grp as guitars or make othe stero grp?
ThaDeka 1 year ago
@ThaDeka "0" threshold is a level setting also called nominal. It just means that the compressors start compressing when the meters reach "0" which is about 3/4 of the way up.
If I run out of groups I usually put keyboards in with toms.
www73171 1 year ago
Hey Dave, I'm a student at the New England School of Communications for Live Sound Engineering. Thanks for the tips! What kind of console do you use for your shows? or what do you prefer?
~Dan
soundhead18 1 year ago
@soundhead18 I usually carry a Midas H3000 but fine with an XL4, verona or seina. I am good with most analog boards though that are of reasonable quality.
www73171 1 year ago
i dont want to alarm you, but theres a giraffe in your room
sano2000 1 year ago
do you ever return a comp to an open channel? upwards compression?
danielobrien8 1 year ago
@danielobrien8 Not yet, but I try to keep my channel counts as low as possible. One exception is when I parallel drum gate, will try and get a video done on that subject as it works really well.
www73171 1 year ago
@www73171 sounds interesting. dont forget to make that one. please? :) (drummer dork/foh here)
christopheronald 1 month ago
great info Dave!!! u r genius!!!
carlosluisarellano 1 year ago
Great Vid. Thanks! 10/10
jnrolf 1 year ago
Thanks man! Superbly explained. Now all I gotta do is get hold of a big desk and ten compressors! - and practice the art of mixing for ten years. Excellent tutorial many thanks. Peace.
dingolovethrob 1 year ago
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tomzeeman 1 year ago
Great video! A subject that I always find interesting is unity gain mixing vs. unity fader mixing. Maybe you could do a video about that?
tomzeeman 1 year ago
@tomzeeman I always mix with I guess what you could call "logical fader mixing" where I set the gains such that the faders sit in what I consider logical positions for that artist. That way my mix looks correct to me on the faders when it sounds correct.
www73171 1 year ago
thanks for sharing your knowledge
xtrasuper 1 year ago
Just awesome!!!! A video on gain structure and/or how you run a soundcheck (in which order you put together a mix) would be awesome.
joevaq71 1 year ago 2
@joevaq71 hmmm, maybe a line check sound check vid I could do. As I have some unconventional ways of sound checking that I feel work well. Gain structure is a pretty well beaten subject and all I do is set my faders where I want to see them and turn the gains up till I get the level I am looking for.
www73171 1 year ago
Nice one Dave! Do you know what's the difference between VCA's and DCA's?
Joelito2k9 1 year ago 3
@Joelito2k9 A VCA technically means "voltage controlled amplifier." DCA means "digitally controlled amplifier" which does exactly the same thing but since it is technically different as there is not actually a true "VCA" in a digi board, they use a more correct name.
www73171 1 year ago 4
@Joelito2k9
DCA means digital controlled amps. so you will find them in digital boards. VCA means voltage controlled amps, so you will only find them in analouge boards ;)
highspooky 1 year ago
I usually just put my amp to 11.
wetfreq 1 year ago
Great vid Dave! I really like your thoughts on running the VCAs before and after the group comps to manage overall dynamics. I'll definitely be trying that out at the first club that has enough VCAs.
natenorthway 1 year ago
I've always loved the behind the scenes view of things, and this was wonderfully in-depth. Given there's so much more than what's been presented here going on, this is just sage advice for someone who's trying to learn how to mix a live environment.
psychonavigator 1 year ago 3
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psychonavigator 1 year ago
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psychonavigator 1 year ago
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Troglored 1 year ago
Most useful channel on YouTube.
Troglored 1 year ago 2
Im not even a sound engineer and I found this really interesting.
captainshifty 1 year ago 16
@captainshifty
Damn right, I thought the same thing. I'm not a sound guy either just a musician but this seems like a very well thought out and tried method, simple too.
brunodmtl 1 year ago
Excellent Dave.
That really explains how you sit back during a show and nothing gets away from you.
I can also see how you get away with mixing in the dark a bit easier :)
GreenfieldMN 1 year ago 4
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GreenfieldMN 1 year ago
Great Dave, Thanks
samk5310 1 year ago 2
Great Stuff! thanks Dave
johnnybpr 1 year ago 2
Great Stuff! thanks Dave
johnnybpr 1 year ago
Excellent primer.
wstsidela 1 year ago