"Steps 4 & 5 of AA" by Father Joseph C. Martin

[zappasgal2005]

It is amazing to me how Fr. puts it so simple but so spiritual. He was a man of great grace and understanding and caring. Pope John Paul II (Blessed John Paul now) believed in and taught Divine Mercy. When I hear Fr. Martin speak I can hear that Divine mercy in his voice and what he says.

[Episcopos1]

Aloha to you from Maui, Hawaii! Ray G., former Archivist at Dr. Bob's Home in Akron, wrote the Foreword to "Dr. Bob of Alcoholics Anonymous" by my dad, Dick B. (DickB dot com). My dad also recently launched the "dickbchannel" on YouTube. What do you know about his work? Ken B.

[somethingdiffereable]

I'd like to see this guy go toe to toe with Christopher Hitchens.

[markbify]

its about time people (without God) allow people to become sober by themselves, only then will people believe in the strength within themselves

[MikeDSept21]

I think EVERYONE should live by a 12 step program. It's basically "How To Be A Decent Human Being For Dummies". It's helped me tremendously.

[breda83]

@MikeDSept21 Take a look around at the old-timers in the rooms

[MikeDSept21]

@breda83 I don't have to look far, I sit right by them most the time. Should I be looking for something specific?

[breda83]

@MikeDSept21 yes, the delusion, the lies, the anger, the arrogance, etc....

[MikeDSept21]

@breda83 You sound like you had a bad experience or two in a meeting. I'm sorry to hear that, but it happens. Not every person at the meetings is there for recovery. Some go to buy and sell drugs, some go to get laid, and some people go for recovery. You'll find what you're looking for. I go for the recovery. I don't care what anyone else does, I'm there to get better. I focus on the important discussions and ignore the BS. Some people just haven't suffered enough yet to take it seriously.

[breda83]

@MikeDSept21 So you think I haven't suffered enough? What an arrogant obnoxious thing to say. Where is your so-called "humility" now? You have stopped drinking & using and that is good but 99% of people in recovery delude themselves that this program is some Divine Gift from Heaven and that they are all angels. The 'Disease bullshit is only an excuse to fall back on when members lie,cheat & steal from other members. Bill W used it on his wife all the time.

[MikeDSept21]

@MikeDSept21 There's over 35 different 12-Step organizations world wide, all of which have saved thousands, if not millions of lives, but it only works if you want it.

[SuperBigmoneymike]

@MikeDSept21 Mike go read page 73 and 417 and shut the fuck up..you bash a program that may have helped you..then talk about Bill W like a dog..maybe he was or wasnt You need to read and find your so called Recovery

[MikeDSept21]

@SuperBigmoneymike In which book are you referring? My statement about Bill W asking for whiskey is a documented fact of history.

[MikeDSept21]

@SuperBigmoneymike For the record I'm not a member of AA. AA is cool and all, but NA is where it's at. The literature is almost a half century newer and much more extensive. The members tend to be a bit younger as well.

[Taxi502]

@MikeDSept21 nah, waaay off. 1st, if something aint broke, dont fix it. n the aa literature aint broke. why on earth would u change something that works? aa says keep it simple. na literature is not more extensive, its overkill (really its plagiarism) younger members is not a pro. its a con. older members in aa have many years sober. thats where u want to get ur experience from not from a revolving door of young know it alls in na. if ur scopin chicks, na is where its at. ull learn

[frankenboston]

@MikeDSept21 i was a member of NA for a long time, i grew bored with the show boating of some of it's members not all, there is good and bad in every group manipulation and hostage situations, that exist in both. i do not tolerate neither, or allow myself to be subject to opinions, or personalities above "principal" try and keep an open mind, says in both literature yes? there's 2 types of people in the fellowship of "Aa-NA" or both, those that are awake, and those are are not.

[frankenboston]

@MikeDSept21 take this advice or suggestion also, just for a couple of nights, to not scope for chicks, lol, serious, if you wanna freak out? and have your gizzards blown ? check out a BBSS meeting nearest you, big book step study,, "NOT" a big book meeting, mega huge difference, Big Book Step Study, BBSS , if you want to learn and do a proper 4 and 5th step no holds bard , you'lle thank me later , they F-ing ROCK !!!! my life will never be the same again ty HP. peace.. bruh

[breda83]

@MikeDSept21 Was Bill W a decent Human Being?

[MikeDSept21]

@breda83 I can honestly say that I've never met him. I'm sure he was one of the worlds biggest lying, cheating, manipulative SOB's ever, just like the rest of the people when they first walked into a meeting. 12 step programs have a lot more to do with the therapeutic value of 2 people who share the same disease helping each other. It's way bigger than 1 person. No one person is perfect. Bill W begged for whiskey on his death bed. Personally, I say why not. LOL.

[breda83]

@MikeDSept21 The biggest liars & cheaters & nutjobs are the people with a lot of time..

[opendtuning]

by discovering our character defects means that we can then practice the opposite of them not be guilty and remorsful of them...and that will keep me busy for the rest of my life...

[pianoscotskenny]

@opendtuning. im sure your "grasp" of the "a.ltered a.ttitide" we take in approaching our defects & shortcomings is what its all about. im conviced if AA didnt stand for "alcoholics anonymous" it could well stand for "altered attitudes" throughout.Good AA practitioners help us to "see"...without self loathing.."We recovered alcoholics are not so much brothers & sisters in virtue as we are brothers & sisters in our defects & in our common strivings to overcome them". (Book:"As Bill sees it p167)

[opendtuning]

@pianoscotskenny yes I will look to perfection at being free from character defects/mistakes/faults/shortc­omings but I will never make that ideal and knowing that I have rebelled at every chance of developement in this area I have not made it easy for myself but then my way only got me drunk...and in prayer that my HP will remove them all in time is ongoing but in the mean time I will have to keep putting the work in and continue in my journey of "Character Building"

[pianoscotskenny]

in all faiths,only 3 stages to spiritual maturity exist. "Accept ourselves" "Be ourselves" then "forget ourselves".Perhaps its co-incidence (or God-incidence) that AAs steps offer the same "journey".Step1 asks us "to accept ourselves as we are"..powerless &broken,but to do it with a sense of ease rather than self-loathing...as the wars over. Steps 2-11 "be ourselves" in "our" chosen belief.."our inventory".."our" ammends "our" prayer style,then..Step12 asks "to forget ourselves"& reach others †

[shyboyzzzzz]

my father was a chronic alcoholic and was on deaths door,he entered AA doors 31 years ago and hasnt drunk since..so to all the doubters AA works if you want it to work,if you dont want it and feel you can handle your hooch,good luck and my hat is off to you...

[Zoink555]

Now I'm on my 4th step should I become a Priest?

[hpmc9]

AA is a specifica application of a methodolgy called "Buchananism'/Oxford" Group, that was a national phenomomenon in the 1930s but was largely discredited in the 1940s, as fanatical

'AA' is basically "Buchananism" '"hardcoded" into the issue of alcohol problems, and has endured in a life of it's own beyond Buchananism

[racurran23]

father martin died 3 years ago,,,that is a fact.

[bdavfava]

God is great (as long as your not a homosexual). The bible is full of usefull information about slavery and who should be killed.

[scullysedge]

@bdavfava i think your mixing up the concept of god and the book called the bible.

[prschuster]

I was born and raised catholic. I was brought up in a strict family where I was continually made aware of all my defects. AA inventories just remind me of confession and what I needed most was something to boost my sense of self esteem - not another reason to feel guilty about every possible shortcomming I could uncover. But hey, this process of constant moral inventory might help some people. Whatever works...

[billiardsusa]

blessed are the poor in spirit for the kingdom of heaven is theirs----------JC------------­------------------------------­------------------------------­--------The rich are not blessed spiritually and heaven is not theirs but rather the poor are blessed spiritually and heaven is theirs-------Christ was exactly correct because rich people can only be blessed if they give all they have to the poor and this would end up making them poor and therefor they would qualify for heaven-understand?

[modemeyes]

I thought this talk made sense, as all the steps do as to clean house and face myself was a huge stride for me and didn't happen instantly.  I struggled. But eventually I experienced a freedom I only dreamt about which has gone on for 23 sober years...one day at a time.

[AAFellowship]

I had trouble admitting the defects and I hated the Idea that I was wrong.

These things wear part of me.

Imagine telling grow men how to do their jobs when their 25 yrs. in the traded.

Then wonder Why their Pissed at me.

Boo Ho-ow I did nothing wrong, why are they mad. F**king Bills piling up, waiting till the last minute to do everything.

Now I live the Way life IS, do what I'm supposed to do, do the right thing.

[spacestate]

No wonder AA doesn't "work". You're just spinning your wheels, while your sponser is busy creating defects for you to "work on", what a worthless load of crap. It's as much of a waste of time reasoning with AA true believers as trying to have a sensible conversation with a Moonie or Jehova's Witness. AA is a cult and always has been.

[SelflessWill]

Look, the best criticism of the bad is to quietly go and do it better. If we do our research we find that Love and hate are not opposites, and actually love and indifference are. Therefore, if we are passionate about something it is tantamount to loving it. So, perhaps such passion as displayed masks a deeper need that is so close as to render it invisible our consciousness - much like the denial of the alcoholic. If not, then no worries - I still love you... X

[spacestate]

Another drunken pedophile priest tells us heathens how to live, what a joke.

[just2w4tch]

screw god.

[12stepfailure]

I bet he was a diddler.

[rwsandman]

The Catholic Church and Alcoholics Anonymous have a lot in common. Both like to dish out old-fashioned, unnecessarily harsh, almost sadistic discipline.I got away from the Church in 1969 (I'm still a Christian, but I belong to a more "humane" denomination). and AA in 1999, and I'm doing fine without either one.

[phatttmat]

then why do you have to spend time on the computer announcing it to people?

[jimmietfreeway]

bless you father martin!

[Basisforstace]

He was such a good man and he saved my life, he will be sorely missed.. R.I.P

[phatttmat]

you are a member only when you say you are; i fail to see how their might be a "drop out rate." most people are never additcted to "habits." i would call my many years of drug use many things, but "habit" is not one of them. if you want to drink, then drink. if you need to spend time berating others for attempting to improve their lives in their own way, well, perhaps you should take a look at your own "habits." but i am not in any position to tell you what to do. none of us are.

[AAFellowship]

But what if you truly are a peace of s*it, and you make others miserable.

You know you are so you drink more and more to forget.

You keep telling your self I'm happy I'm Happy.

Then no matter how much you drink you can't get happy.

Wouldn't it be the right thing to do for your Psyche to admit at Your a miserable peace of sh*t and work your way back up?

[AAFellowship]

Then your not An Alcoholic or Addicted.

That's great lots of people aren't.

[spacestate]

It's true-statically most people kick their habits, without wasting their lives "in recovery" for the rest of their days. AA has a Huge drop-out rate.

[saltysailor07]

I don't think Fr. Martin is still alive..His tapes a lot cheaper than a treatment center..Alcoholism is a disease and will kill you..nothing to screw around with

[fatherjoemartin]

Father Martin is very much alive. I visited with him yesterday, (1-22-09.) His sence of humor is still in tact!! He is now 84 years old and suffers with some health issues. One thing Father makes clear is that he continues to keeps the still suffering and recovering alcoholics and drug addicts in his prayers every day. Best to you on your journeys. God bless, and be safe.

[ASTRAALLEN]

Died last week. :(

[Taxi502]

@fatherjoemartin i am a recovering aa myself. i can not stand it when someone in aa tries to teach me something, or preaches to me, or tries to tell me "what i need to do". i would give me left arm to have father martin teach me and tell me what i need to do to stay sober. he speaks with such grace and humility it brings tears of joy to my eyes. i am so sad he passed. you were lucky to have seen him right before he passed

[frankenboston]

@Taxi502 how are you doing now my friend?

[Taxi502]

@frankenboston so good i can hardly stand up. c + s july 25, 2008. good of u to ask. thanks

[spacestate]

Statically Most people kick their habits, without wasting their lives "in recovery" for the rest of their days.

[phatttmat]

no they don't

[AAPetofile]

12. I then tried to proselytize this insane religion, saying that the law is wrong and that it is spiritual, and not religious, even though I could not see any meaningful distinction between the two, nor do the courts in the United States.

[doninlondon]

Steps of AA work. Belief in God or not, peace and good conscience is key. Good conscience and spiritual connection to now, seeing reality as it is, less denials, less filters.

Serenity and acceptance of truth, a path to freedom..

[angusblackwylde]

AA works for many reasons. I see teenagers get together in groups to make themselves feel "normal." AA is a fellowship of folks who exhibit some pretty common characteristics - self-esteem, harsh critics of themselves, lots of anxiety about life ( read some Kierkegaard ). And it works because you drop your daily persona and facade, and can be honest about yourself around some non-judgemental people. Dr. Bob and Bill were Cognitive Behavioral therapists long before Aaron Beck, Albert Ellis.

[blackeconomics]

silly ole bugger

[gonnamakit]

When people object to having a doctrine imposed on them when they seek help, it doesn't have to be because they "don't get it".

[Taxi502]

@gonnamakit wrong. if u r at an aa meeting its bc ur way didnt n does not work-in all aspects of life. its not a doctrine first off. however, if u r at an aa meeting i would suggest u allow someone to 'impose' (ill use ur word) their experience upon u. u dont get it, if u did, u wouldnt be at an aa meeting

[prschuster]

OK. Each person can decide on what works best for them. I have no objections to that.

[rimshot2008]

You just don't get it. AA is easy.

1. Stop drinking

2. Clean House.

3. Help others

It's probably the "clean house' part you don't like. It's simple.

1. Identify the personal characteristics that are ego-based and self destructive.

2. Be willing to change.

3. Replace your destructive thoughts and behaviors with modesty, honesty gratitude and service to others.

This is how you STAY SOBER!

[prschuster]

In other words, you are an egotistical, sinful ingrate, and that's why you drink. You can demean yourself all you want but leave me out of this self berating program. I stay sober by refraining from bending my elbow with a drink in my hand.

[rimshot2008]

It seems you are an exceptional person - well adjusted, contented and comfortable in your own skin without alcohol. Most alcoholics are filled with regret, resentments, guilt and remorse after they sober up. Congratulations to you. Apparently you came through your "countless rehabs and detoxes" unscathed.

[prschuster]

I sense a bit of condescension in that remark. It's not the first time my words have been dismissed by veiled insults to my integrity. Of course I was filled with regrets gulit and remorse after sobering up. But I have no use for a program that encourages a person to drag themselves through this quasi religious guilt trip indefinitely 5, 10 or 20 years after sobering up. That's not recovery from addiction. So why are you trying to lay a guilt trip on me... or are you in denial about that too?

[rimshot2008]

Good for you. You've made a complete recovery after your ordeal of countless rehabs and detoxes. My congratulations are sincere. Clearly, you are a person or exceptional character and the type of help AA offers is not necessary for you.

[prschuster]

Thank you. Actually, I am quite ordinary. There are countless others like me who need a little support at first, but who are perfectly capable of functioning as normal human beings, after kicking the habit, without being "in recovery" for the rest of their lives.

[rimshot2008]

I understand, and I hope you understand that unlike yourself, there are millions of other alcoholics who require an on-going effort to maintain their precious hard-earned sobriety. For the majority a profound personality/thinking/behavior change is required to stay sober and maintain an emotional equilibrium. Don't knock it. For those of us who are otherwise unable to stay sober - it works.