You are falling apart if God loved us he would have told us about Good and Evil. God saying to not eat of the tree of good and evil is a contradiction in itself. That is like you not telling your children about what is right and what is wrong. Did God follow his own Ethics? It looks like a huge NO.
you say that every body has a choice to believe what they want? (1:15) but in today society people are punished from not believing in god. i know form experience, when i am open about my not believing in god i am told im "going to hell." the U.S is ran by christian and you claim that you are a country made of freedom of speech, but it seems that you only get free speech when you are saying what the majority of the people want you to say.
@videogamefreak110 No one should have said that to you. The person who said that don't have a heaven or hell to put anyone in. Only God is a judge. Jesus didn't send anyone to hell while he was living on earth, so how is anyone on Earth living now going to send you to hell. Jesus came so nobody can do that to anyone. If you read his words for yourself you would know that. I'm sorry if they hurt your feeling, believe me, other's people who I love, who are christian try to do that to me as well.
@videogamefreak110 Soooooo Sooooo true!!! But the religious have absolutely no problem being hypocrites. the irony is....none of them are actually READING the book. For instance..Gen verse 1:26 states let US make man in OUR image. But they change it to god made us in his image. Religion is mind control. It tells you what to think..not how to think. Research the sumerians and their creation story which mentions Edin(eden) and the Adamu (adam)..nobody really wants to know the TRUTH!!
So if god didn't want man to have "knowledge" of good and evil, doesn't that mean that he had already made good and evil and was just keeping it hidden from us?
And did he not know that Eve would eat the fruit anyways? That's like putting a bottle of rat poison in your 2 year old kid's bed and telling him not to eat it... we would call that child abuse and bad parenting...
If there is a god, he is a terrible, abusive, neglectful parent. Anyone praising him is only furthering the problem.
@Grimtheorist ...no no no, u are almost right. it's like putting a bottle of rat poison in our 2 year old boy and girl's room, telling the boy not to eat it and then relying on the 2 year old boy to inform the 2 year old girl that she should not eat it. It makes perfect sence..lol
You say that suffering is a good plan because it is helpful to the human race in terms of guiding us away from negative things. However, if the Christian God is not only all-powerful but also totally kind, does he not have the power to eradicate these negative forces? This is the question. I can understand why suffering helps to be steered from evil, but under the same God, why does evil need t exist? This all is derived mainly from my own beliefs as well as gogreen18, who you referred to.
@thisiswhyimhot1000 If suffering is good to prove man for God how is it evil? If God created the Earth and said it is Good, then said don't eat of the tree of Good AND Evil, how is God at fault? He didn't make an evil Earth but a good one. and said stay away from evil. How is God creator of all things, but then need evil if he is the creator of All? especially if he put in tree, then told use not to touch it? How can you learn the answer about God and but not seek God to ask Him the answers?
Simply put, the fact that you say he created the tree that is good and EVIL means that God did put evil into the world. This contradicts you saying God does not do evil, for if he had power over all and kindness for all, there should be no reason for Him to create evil.
I don't even understand why anyone bothers to argue with this "man", I believe is the proper term, though I would prefer to say boy, considering his mind set. He is obviously ignorant, and there for a waste of time when it comes to intelligent people, especially those who understand that suffering of the innocent is not a good thing. Though we should not ignore people like this. Our children/grandchildren will pay the consequences of people like this if we can't get them to come to their senses.
@shawtyspice This is such a good point. This boy, I like how you said, has a misconception of a lot of things... I like how he really hos no idea what he is saying though. all you hear is "ahhh" "ummm" "you know uhhh" "in the movies..." "ummmmmmmmm" ... Yes, I will be sure to take someone like this seriously, as soon as I grow a third eye...
bro she wasn't saying that the existence of evil refutes God's existence, she was saying that people do evil things in God's name, which is contradictory to whatever we're supposed to believe... and anyway what difference would reading the bible make, you're a fool of you think that a book that has seen thousands of years and hundreds of different languages is saying the exact same things it said when it was first written...
Your reply didn't really answer my question. I was a bit upset when i reply because i don't understand when you say suffering is good but people don't want to do it and then I'm looking at these videos of dying & starving men, women and children all over the world but then you reply to me "Don't blame God when we vote for Republicans". i will be more respectful when replying on others beliefs. I am from a Baptist family. Can you give me your take on why these helpless children are dying
Suffering is a good plan? after u said that i googled staving children of the world and could not figure what ur god's plan is for that. i would never make my grandson pay for the wrong my son did before my grandson was born. u can't argue with the brainwashed. i was raised baptist and believed with all my heart until i lost the fear of hell and started asking questions
@iflorence3rd Don't blame God when we vote for Republicans will do just that. Run up debt and leave it for our kids. You need to asked yourself what kind of hell will they be living in on EARTH if we screw up this nation. Don't even worry about spiritually.
@AVTPro Your reply didn't really answer my question. I was a bit upset when i reply because i don't understand when you say suffering is good but people dont want to do it and then I'm looking at these videos of dying & starving men, women and children all over the world but then you reply to me "Don't blame God when we vote for Republicans". i will be more respectful when replying on others beliefs. I am from a Baptist family. Can you give me your take on why these helpless children are dying
@iflorence3 Who has starved the children? God? When he has made a planet that has an endless supply of food, feilds and water? Who stores food up in silo and let it rot inorder to keep inflation price up? God? How has drove farmers out of business for the sake of corporation profits process and synthetic food manufacturing? God? Who drive people into the dessert to starve because they has gold, diamond and mininals? God. Own up to your own faults then you can begin to make things better.
And that is the sin that will take mankind to hell if they don't repent and surrender thier lives to Jesus Christ the only true diety manifested in the flesh. The first fruit of repentance is the death of ego and the surrender to Christ. If you ego doesn't die and your life is centered in Jesus Christ then you cannot be saved.
Q. Why did God create the tree in the first place?
IF God is all knowing, then he would've known what Adam and Eve were about to do and the consequences thereof. You make the analogy of God using suffering to teach us a lesson. However, unlike god, human parents can't do most of the stuff that God supposedly can. We only teach our children about these things because there are these dangers in our world. But if God removes these dangers, He doesn't have to do so. Does God enjoy punishing us?
Q. Why did God create the tree in the first place?
IF God is all knowing, then he would've known what Adam and Eve were about to do and the consequences thereof. You make the analogy of God using suffering to teach us a lesson. However, unlike god, human parents can't do most of the stuff that God supposedly can. We only teach our children about these things because there are these dangers in our world. But if God removes these dangers, He doesn't have to do so. Does God enjoy punishing us?
Q. Why did God create the tree in the first place?
IF God is all knowing, then he would've known what Adam and Eve were about to do and the consequences thereof. You make the analogy of God using suffering to teach us a lesson. However, unlike god, human parents can't do most of the stuff that God supposedly can. We only teach our children about these things because there are these dangers in our world. But if God removes these dangers, He doesn't have to do so. Does God enjoy punishing us?
Q. Why did God create the tree in the first place?
IF God is all knowing, then he would've known what Adam and Eve were about to do and the consequences thereof. You make the analogy of God using suffering to teach us a lesson. However, unlike god, human parents can't do most of the stuff that God supposedly can. We only teach our children about these things because there are these dangers in our world. But if God removes these dangers, He doesn't have to do so. Does God enjoy punishing us?
"for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
We were made for his Glory alone not for our glory.
Actually, in fact, this does not answer my question. First of all, you based your response on the presumption of God's existence, which we never agreed upon. But let's say you are right, that God "does" exist. What I'm getting from your argument is that EVERYTHING exists to reflect god's glory, which should logically include both good AND evil. Here's my question - if evil is a reflection of God, then shouldn't we be rewarded for evil acts, and not punished? That's not very just.
@jianyang55555 You are commiting a grave sin approaching God as if you were on his level by questioning him and actually attributing evil to him sir.Evil does not come directly from God but is allowed by God.Evil is not so much a thing as it is the absence or seperation from Gods righteousness.So Evil exist because there are biengs absent and seperated from God's righteousness because of thier disobedience.So the devil full of evil is actually in better terms the devil empty of righteousness.
@SlaveOfCrist Also, if He hates evil so much, WHY does he allow it? It doesn't make any sense!
Oh, by the way, let me paraphrase what you just said: "If you don't do what God tells you to do, then you are evil". You might want to rephrase what you said to avoid making God sound like Hitler.
@jianyang55555 You see your problem?Your comparing Hitler to God.God can do whatever he wants and it is righteous and good because he is righteous and good.But hitler is just a fallen man who is not righteous so he can do whatever he wants and it is evil. Sorry to put it so bluntly but God had a masterplan from the beginning and that masterplan in the end is to glorify Jesus Christ and unless you accept that then you're just lost.................CONTINUED ABOVE............
@SlaveOfCrist Actually, I'm suggesting that you are comparing God to Hitler - go back and reread my reply. And also, go back and reread what you wrote: "no matter the circumstance, even if God and Hitler were to do the same thing, God's action will be considered good and Hitler's evil". So, as a fallen creation, no matter what a person does, it will be considered evil to Christians? At the end, you basically suggested that God really don't care about humans. Why then, should we care about God?
@jianyang55555 I never said that God don't care about humans. I never said that God and hitler would do the same thing.If you would have your eyes open to the light then you would be able to understand that passage i quoted.Read it again and let God speak.Your problem is that you want to interogate God as if he was on your level or on any created biengs level for that matter.He revealed himself through Jesus Christ in the time he preordained and predestined who was going to believe for his glory
@SlaveOfCrist I never wrote that you suggested that God and Hitler would do the same things. But you did suggest that even IF they were to do the same things, God's actions would be considered good and Hitler's evil. Seriously, go back and dissect your sentences - I merely paraphrased what you wrote. And where did I get the idea that God doesn't care about humans? His masterplan - if it's to boost his already bloated ego, we really have no place in it.
@jianyang55555 ego?that only works for us. God can't have an ego because everything is supposed to be centered on him.We have an ego when we want to rob him of the glory due to him. It is you my friend that have the ego.You have a problem with God getting all the attention instead of you.That doesn't mean that God doesn't give us attention because he does.Even right now the only reason you keep taking breaths to fill your lungs is because he's making it happen.But God can't have an ego, HE'S GOD
@SlaveOfCrist Of course I have an ego. Everyone should have an ego. How can you be an independent person without pride in being alive and yourself? Actually, come to think of it, when you give all your devotion to a deity, you lose that independence.
@SlaveOfCrist Why shouldn't I question him? It is precisely this blind faith that led to so many past atrocities. Think of the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, 9/11! You wouldn't blindly check-mark your presidential ballots. Neither would you marry someone without getting to know them first. Why would you give yourself to someone without at least finding out as much as you can about that person first?
@jianyang55555 Ephesians 1:9-11 "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"
@SlaveOfCrist What does this mean? Seriously, stop quoting the Bible - it does nothing to further your point. The Bible is just a collection of (sometimes vague) statements without even the least explanation as to why it should be so. When you ask a murderer why he killed your family, you wouldn't accept "just because" as a valid reason. The same, I think, goes on in the heads of many people. They simply won't accept "just because" as a valid reason for giving their lives to an unknown entity.
I'd also like to point out another flaw in your argument - where exactly does it say that we must "give our lives" to our "creator"? It seems pretty hypocritical of God to give us "free-will" and then tell us we must obey him or suffer for an eternity. But of course, being omniscient, He would've known that some of us would not obey...which brings us back to the beginning - does God love evil? He does seem to be a pretty sadistic individual to want to watch so much suffering.
@jianyang55555 1 John 1:5 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." Beware calling the Almighty evil because God is Holy, Holy, Holy. He is apart everything that exists and is beyond righteousness. Mankind is fallen and evil and that is why man has distorted views about God. The problem is that men want to stretch out one attribute of God which is love but God's love is as perfect as his wrath and justice.
@SlaveOfCrist Quite an quote of fanatical devotion you have there. Nevertheless, you just answered my question of "why does God punish us for no reason" with "because He is perfect". Great answer. Surely we must all follow His example and smite all those who won't obey us!
Seriously, though, if you truly believe that's the case, then I guess that's your choice. Personally, I like to believe that whatever God is, He isn't that. I don't know if He exists, but it'd be pretty cool if He does! :P
Likewise, we kill people because we are weak. When we have sufficient power over our enemies, we consider it more moral to subdue them, rather than kill them. When we can, we consider it more moral to make them good people than to let them rot in prison. We do the less moral options because sometimes we can't do the more moral options.
God is omnipotent. He should never have to settle for any option but the best option.
@AVTPro Either you are being sarcastic, or missing my point. God should never have to settle for mass murder to have things go his way. He should never teach us through suffering. He should never have made imperfect beings if he knew we would upset us.
God is supposedly perfect. There should never be the slightest imperfection, the tiniest hitch in his plans, the most momentary of regrets in his actions.
We do evil because sometimes, it's the best we can do. God has no such excuse.
@Sines314 Romans 9:20-23 "Nay but, O man,who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God,willing to shew his wrath,and to make his power known,endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy"
@SlaveOfCrist So, God brought us into this world and he can take us out, eh?
Bullshit. People in power are considered moral only when they use their power justly. If God decides to cast me into hell for drinking orange soda, that's his prerogative, but it makes him a colossal dick.
By your logic, your parents brought you into this world. They therefor have every right to lock you in their basement and torture you. Sure, god can supersede them, but he's not against that kind of thing, is he?
@Sines314 You don't even see your pride and niether does any other athiest or agnostic that hates God. Your problem is you're comparing God to my parents. God is out of our league, dimension, and comprehension so how can we actually think that we(needy little human biengs) can even talk back to God for what he lets happen. We should instead fear and pray to God to have mercy on us and others and run to Jesus Christ for soccour because only through him is there eternal life in God.
@SlaveOfCrist I don't hate god. Don't think he exists. Atheist, remember?
At any rate, I must ask you, if god is beyond us that we can't understand him, how do you know he's good and not evil? If a good god causes good and bad things to happen to you, how could you tell the difference from an uncaring god, or from an evil god who has nefarious reasons to make you happy occasionally?
I have to work from the knowledge I have, however limited. And god doesn't look too sparkly from down here.
@Sines314 What you're not understanding is how finite and small we are and how infinitely mighty and great God is. You say that my parents brought me into this world and that they have every right to lock me in their basement and torture me but you're not getting it. My parents didn't even choose what time in history or place they were going to be born or how they were going to look and they sure didn't choose mines either. God is Almighty we are not, even if we can have children they are his.
If God's plan didn't account for good and evil, then he is not omniscient.
But the point isn't that it might not be WORTH the evil, the point is that the evil is unnecessary. I go to the dentist despite the suffering, because it's worth it, but why should I or anyone go to the dentist, if we could instead take a cheap pill to keep our teeth healthy and strong. God can make that pill, he can provide enough for everyone, and it would take less effort for him than it does for us to draw breath.
@Sines314 You can't compare our parents (bieng used by God as a tool) in bringing us into this world through only one night of intimacy and God actually sustaining every atom in our bieng, choosing what time in history we were to be born, choosing where on earth, to what parents, how we were going to look, the color our hair and eyes were going to be. Our parents gave us no souls but God sustains our souls and we subsist in him. Your comparison of God and our parents is a misunderstood concept.
There is evil all throughout the Old Testament, as Joshua leads the slaughter of the Caananite WOMEN & CHILDREN, just because they didn't have the proper bloodline to survive the filthy Jew military conquests of Joshua. Anyone who supports the racist hate logic of a "chosen" people are INSANE, and they will be the filthy cause of the 3rd world war in the Middle East, more than anyone else.
I Corinthians 1:18The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.
So if a child does something wrong because they don't know any better ie. they don't know about the knowledge of good and evil, you punish them because they didn't know any better? So when God told Adam not to eat from that tree, yet they did not yet know about good and evil it's OK for God to condemn them to a world of suffering, and ultimately to hell? If they didn't yet know the difference between good and evil then how could they know eating from the tree was wrong?
cont....of a punishment because serpents go about their serpent business graciously without the need for legs. Perhaps, if nothing else, the story helps us to understand why serpents can't walk and talk......should there be anyone wondering why serpents can't walk and talk. If it's true that god is "all-knower" who can anticipate to anything is about to go down, then the so-called "Fall of Man" seems to me to be a sinister setup by this god himself.
cont...."right" from "wrong" with a loaded gun at his sight and reach, and all you tell him is not to touch it. This child is created with an inquiring nature, thus pick up the gun and shoot himself then on top of that you punish that child. How do you coherently harmonize that? And what does this god do to the talking serpent for deceiving his two innocent creature? Well, not much. He simply coursed the serpent to "drag itself on its belly for the rest of its life," which it wasn't much.....
If this god has been good to Leroy Thompson, Andew Wommack, Kenneth Copeland, TD Jakes, Creflo Dollar and many others, why wouldn't this god do the same thing with those in real desperate needs? And why this god placed such a tree in the garden and leave them at the mercy of a crafty [talking] snake also created by this god himself? Didn't god know what the snake was going to do? He had to know, he's "Omniscient"-- isn't he? Imagine leaving your innocent child, who doesn't know yet.....
AVTPro, your rationalization is way to simplistic, and although you might think it explains something, the fact is that it doesn't. There are thousands of people all over the globe--particualarly innocent children--who are suffering and dying from malnourishment, diseases, and rampant starvation. How do you reconcile that with a "benevolent and merciful" god? I think coming to the rescue of those children would be a proven act of "benevolence"--don't you think? Cont.....
Read your fucking Bible. God doesnt do evil? He murders more than 2 million people in the bible.. Kills EVERYTHING in a flood too. And on top of that he tortures people Forever. He has Satan walk around deceiving people so that they may be Burned. You can't be Serious. Use the brain your Sadist, Tyrannical, Hatefilled, Murdering, Jealous God gave you.
Read your fucking Bible. God doesnt do evil? He murders more than 2 million people in the bible.. Kills EVERYTHING in a flood too. And on top of that he tortures people Forever. He has Satan walk around deceiving people so that they may be Burned. You can't be Serious. Use the brain your Sadist, Tyrannical, Hatefilled, Murdering, Jealous God gave you.
@siggafree2 God does not do evil you should read more about the flood the creatures that god killed were not fully human those were the nephilim an abomination.
@siggafree2 Filthy Jew? I see. What amazes me about people like you is you would be all in favor of wiping out the native american idian so you can have this land. You would be in favor of slavery so the europeans can prosper to a super power. And now, you are probably in favor of war for oil so you can drive your car when you want. Yet when God says these people sin will cause society to fail, No Captive you question God about what he already knows about their sin.
3. where does american natives and genocide come into all this? doesn't the former white settlers already own all of the u.s.?
4. actually, christianity existed alongside slavery for milinia and really didn't give a damn for the most part. slavery ended in the us because lincohn wanted to undermine the war efforts of the confederates...and get more votes (at least that's wt i think)
does anyone ever wonder how the hell god exists like where did he come from. i cant fathom the idea that someone some all powerful being just come out of nowhere and just exists.
i never got spanked and i'm actually a decent human being. but how come we use logic when talkin about the bible? where's the logic in talking snakes?
"Suffering is a good plan BECAUSE they don't want to do it" wtf...
'what they understand is a spanking on the butt"
sure, but if you put the chemicals there KNOWING BEFOREHAND (omniscience) that your child is going to drink them and then punish your child for getting themselves into the situation you put them in you're an asshole.
In the garden the tree was of knowledge of good and evil. before eating from the tree they didn't know shame or fear. they were "innocent" they wouldn't have known the "sin" that was eating from the tree in the first place. He set them up to fail and he knew beforehand that they would.
See, you're talking about "whatever god's plan for us" was. So are you conceding that he's not omniscient?
Hahaha Not reading the bible. are you kidding me? A LOT of atheists read religious texts. there's nothing we love more than using the bible to refute itself!
Evil is like what to god? you're saying that a LARGE percentage of the world suffering and starving is not at all relevant to god?
Were not saying that God cant exist because of evil.
Were saying that if there is an almighty all-knowing God which most of you believe then the existence of Evil shows that this God that could have wiped it all out chose not to. Why doesnt God get rid of Satan? Is he not powerful enough? Why does God allow such a being to exist? Yahweh may exist. But should we worship him? Most certainly not. Hes not a problem solver. We have reason to call him dangerous.
@Sjarke98 First of all god is going to get rid of satan ur proably wonderind y dosent he do it know beacuse he is giving a warning to non-belivers so they can face eternal judgemnt and why does he let the devl tempt us because it streanths peoples faith for god. he is a problem solver to his children if he is not ur father why does he need to help you?so u need any explantion with wat im saying just ask me :)
Thanks for responding. :) Yes, I have a few questions and comments.
So the reason there is evil in the world still is so that the non-believers are warned. This is not a warning for a non-manifesting world after this one. Consequences of things happen in this world. Problems in this world arent proof of happening in another world. If God wants to warn the non-believers he should show up face to face and explain what he is going to do.
@Sjarke98 no the reason there is evil in the world is because of satan. god will take that out bye throwing it in the lake of fire. and getting u raped does actuaally help praying to god to help u in these times rember that only gods children can do this ((pray to him for help))people r going to die anyways soo that proves that disasters are the same word as natrual death. anhe cant warn a non-beliver caushe already did (bible) and the famlies that are hurt because of death will get streanth in
Please dont go in circles. Evil is because of Satan, who God CHOOSE not to stop, ergo God chooses evil to exist. And I want to know why.
God created evil and allows it to happen, so that people can seek help in God. Thats crazy. Just like people saying that God saves them from hellfire. Well, God was the one creating hell and wanting to put us there in the first place. So people go to God to be saved from God? Thats nonsense.
@Sjarke98 tell me this: if i were to hold a gun to you and tell you to tell me you love me.. would you do it? If you did would you mean it? No, you dont know who i am, you know nothing about me.. I feel like in the same way God is going to let some things happen. I believe God has the POWER to control every minute detail of our lives, but i also believe He has a reason for letting us have choices. Let us choose to follow HIm (if he has called us) ..
@Sjarke98 Evil is mans doing not Satan, he just introduced to us were the ones makin it flourish on this earth. Also have you ever heard of free will?
@LordChiasson Evil is mans doing not Satan, he just introduced to us were the ones making it flourish on this earth.
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And how is that a point to mine? God created everything, ergo Satan too, God knows our thoughts and motives, and he knows the future, ergo he knew what Satan was made of and what he would end up doing to humanity. Yet god allowed it and did not intervene. Which makes God responsible.
@Sjarke98 The point is He had free will, easy as that, Lucifer had not made the choice yet why would God punish him for a crime he has not committed yet? The decision was Lucifer's to make not God's. that's just like if we where to punish every person who had a thought of killing a person before they did it, very unjust if you ask me(example of course).
@LordChiasson The point is He had free will, easy as that, Lucifer had not made the choice yet why would God punish him for a crime he has not committed yet?
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Well, the story of the golden calf seems to point to a God much willing to punish for an act that will be considered crime in the future, but other than that. Why allows Lucifer into being if God knew what he would do? I’m not talking about killing him, because I’m not in favour of death, but why allow for his being in the first place?
@Sjarke98 Well the Golden cafe story, they where not being punished for future deeds they where already worshiping the golden calf, another God which was being addressed to them. Yet they continued to disobey God, therefore punishment. If you have knowledge of a being yet you choose not to give it life is it not the same as if you where to kill it? Of course being humans we could not define that as killing but what if that's, How God saw it? He loves all his creations
@LordChiasson That’s just like if we where to punish every person who had a thought of killing a person before they did it, very unjust if you ask me.
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I agree. That would be very immoral. Yet Christians use this sometimes as an excuse. Like when God wiped out the entire earth with the flood, and we ask, the small babies too? Then many will answer that they were to grow up and become corrupted. But other than that. According to your beliefs, would people desire killing if it wasn’t for Satan?
@Sjarke98 I see your point also such as the crusades. God can do no wrong also in are beliefs, children where killed, however had they been baptized(Roman Catholicism) they would have went to heaven sense children can not commit sin(up to a certain age not sure exact forgive me) seeing as how they have not grasped concept of right and wrong. I have to agree no, because Adam and Eve would not have fallen, However you still cant blame God for this. It was are curiosity that lead to downfall
@LordChiasson Well the Golden cafe story, they where not being punished for future deeds.
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Oh no, and that wasn’t my point either. They were punished for breaking a law that did not exist at the time. They broke no law. Which to me would suggest that something likely could be done by the god of the bible also. It was just a comparison.
God can do no wrong.
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So good and bad are defined by God? If God pads a dog, it’s good. If God rips its limbs off, and lets it die slowly, it’s good too?
@Sjarke98 Yet they continued to break the law after they had learned that what they where doing was wrong, where is the wrong in that? And you would be liable for the new law it had you been told about it, which they where, at least they where informed before action was taken against them all they had to do was stop and accept God. Yes, if God choose to do that its right, just as a parent tells his/her children "Do as I say, not as I do". Doesn't mean its right for us to do that.
@LordChiasson However had they been baptized (Roman Catholicism) they would have went to heaven sense children can not commit sin.
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Well, at least I’m glad that you think children are innocent, as do I. But WHY on earth would children be punished for being born of parents of a wrong religion? That’s ... absurd and extremely immoral.
I have to agree no, because Adam and Eve would not have fallen. However you still cant blame God. It was are curiosity that lead to downfall .
@Sjarke98 Going to Heaven is not punishment, paradise is what it is, so whats wrong going there? There souls are saved and they are immortal, of course this is my beliefs.
Well I can see how your comparing so let me just be blunt, Lucifer was not a dog, which has no free will by the way it acts on instincts, Also Lucifer just tempts humans,not bite, God wanted to see if are curiosity would get the best of us or would we follow him unquestionably,result we fail. Now we must prove worth Cont.
@Sjarke98 Heaven, also the kids in ur example are doing nothing Adam and Eve disobeyed Gods words, and where punished. And as in my earlier post Lucifer was allowed so that we could prove are worth to enter heaven. He does love us cause he gave us a chance to enter paradise with Jesus,my beliefs of course. Man does evil to man, once Adam ate of the fruit this is what we gained. Of course we can argue on in on but you are arguing with logic against faith which neither of us will budge.
@LordChiasson Yet they continued to break the law after they had learned that what they where doing was wrong.
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Then you need to go back and read the story again. :)
Yes, if God choose to do that its right, just as a parent tells his/her children "Do as I say, not as I do". Doesn't mean its right for us to do that.
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Nor does it mean that it’s right for God. Atheists are often accused for believing in subjective morality. This is one being’s subjective morality put on us by force.
@Sjarke98 Well I really don't see what im missing about the story, plz enlighten me i have read it and cant see what your talking about when I give you my answer. Also the God that saved them from slavery an certain death is thanked by them worshiping a golden calf....hey man thanks :)
When I mean he is right, it means he is right, my beliefs are God is never wrong period.His morality Its not forced you can follow it if you wish, doing so just leads to everlasting life.
Standing in the gate keeping good and innocent people out is. While, according to some belief systems, murderers can enter freely, as long as they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and saviour.
God wanted to see if are curiosity would get the best of us or would we follow him unquestionably.
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Is curiosity really that dangerous? Curiosity lead to asking questions, lead to answers, lead to knowledge, lead to the very society you live in.
@Sjarke98 When has it ever said good and innocent people are kept out? Murders and all the others dnt just go for believing they have to truly in the heart be sry for the sins they have committed.
The very sex driven, money grabbing society Im in....hey man thanks :). Hiroshima come to mind? How bout all the great experiments of WWII done by the SS? Or all other great weapons we have built from are curiosity on what best way to kill each other.
@LordChiasson Curiosity is one of the most important tools of humanity. But I’ll tell you a secret. The reason why God prohibits free thought, asking questions, doubt and curiosity, is this. The second you start asking questions, you’ll see that there’s probably no god. Seeking knowledge is a thread to religion.
And as in my earlier post Lucifer was allowed so that we could prove our worth to enter heaven.
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Kinda sounds like the method of the Jigsaw Murderer from the movie Saw, honestly.
@Sjarke98 Well when you have eternal life on one hand, and then the short amount of time we here on earth, why is there a point to ask questions? you live die and then judged(my belief) I mean not saying you cant enjoy life or anything but why do you(anybody) need to know everything? Why extend the unavoidable? i see no point the short time here matters not tome
Probably? so your not sure if there is or isn't? Seeking knowledge can also be the doom of mankind. Some things are better left alone
@Sjarke98 and as I also said but you never answered, wouldn't allowing something you knew you could create but did not be the same as murder?
Well I guess beside my Faith my good reason is I believe in God and his laws because they give me strength, courage, willpower. Keep me on course to where I want to be and what I want to do in my life.
@LordChiasson The problem with the story is that they made the calf while Moses was on the mountain. Which means that the Ten Commandments had not yet been passed on to them, perhaps not even made. There was no existing law they could break. And they were not asked to take it down, not given the opportunity to understand, according to the story. They were punished immediately.
@LordChiasson When I mean he is right, it means he is right, my beliefs are God is never wrong period.
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Yes, I understand. And how can’t you see a single problem with that? You must clearly think that if I torture a child, that’s immoral. The action is the exact same if we replace ‘I’ with ‘you’ or ‘John’ ‘Don’ or ‘Yahweh’. How can it be justified just because God does it? That makes no sense. This system you believe in makes morality meaningless. All you have is obedience without question.
@Sjarke98 Your putting your self on equal footing of God, He is are superior. Its justified cause he created life and is offering everlasting life. I know you don't grasp it cause of course again we both have complete different ways of thinking(logic v.s. faith) so I guess we can just agree to disagree. It has been great debating tho I must say thank you for responding other peps don't really reply back
@LordChiasson When has it ever said good and innocent people are kept out?
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When you said that children of the wrong parents are not allowed to enter heaven.
The very sex driven, money grabbing society Im in.
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Red herring. You know what I mean. You have a computer, medicine, time to spare for your enjoyment, you don’t have to fight for your life, fresh food, long lifespan, transportation, our society flourished because of people who were not satisfied with the answers of religion.
@Sjarke98 Im sry if you misunderstood but I sayed all children do go to heaven, they have no sin(unless they are not baptized) of course during the flood(which I completely forgot forgive me) there was no entrance into heaven cause Jesus had not made his sacrifice for us. So all the innocent where prob in limbo I cant assume anything cause its not stated unless I missed it.
I understand what your saying but still all the luxurey of life are not needed Cont.
@LordChiasson Your putting your self on equal footing of God, He is are superior.
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And I say that he isn’t just because you say so. Murder is objectively wrong, that’s what I believe. In all senses of the word. You, for some reason, don’t. I think it’s because you don’t like to put these word in to your mouth: “Yes, there are limits to God.” It feels good to have a limitless being on your side. So I don’t think I can get you to admit that God could do something that’s wrong.
@LordChiasson I define morality as actions that help the flourishing healthy happy society. In short. God could technically destroy a society. Which he did. He stated himself that the people who built the tower of Babel were the healthiest strongest societies, and he destroyed it. God can destroy a society. If morality is about a healthy society, god can do immoral acts. If you define the word ‘moral’ to mean ‘what God does’, surely we won’t agree. I just don’t see that as a useful definition.
@LordChiasson Im sry if you misunderstood but I sayed all children do go to heaven, they have no sin(unless they are not baptized)
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So not all children go to heaven. Only all children who are baptized. What about those who aren’t? Those born of parents of other religions are not allowed to enter heaven, that’s what you say. And I say that that’s not the fault of the child. Much like it’s not my or your fault whatever happened in the Garden of Eden.
@LordChiasson Hiroshima, WWII, SS, weapons, curiosity on what best way to kill each other.
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Sure, curiosity for the bad. What’s the point? Nothing is perfect. Without oxygen you would die in a heartbeat. Yet, oxygen is a requirement for the fire than can burn your skin. Nothing is just good. And surely people will use science to create weapons. But according to your beliefs. That would never have happened, were it not for Satan. So we are back where we started. Why does Satan exist?
@LordChiasson A parent put his son and his daughter in a room. Then he took a dog in the house, a mad dog by the way. But he allowed for the mad dog to be around the innocent children. Then one day, the mad dog bites the two children. The father saw it coming, of course, and he even saw the event, but did nothing to prevent it. That’s how much he loves his children. And afterwards, when the children are infected, that’s when he decides to punish them, and their future relatives. Thats the story.
Secondly. I really honestly thing this is pure self-righteous nonsense. Strengthening people by having them raped. Could you possibly provide ONE single benefit from child rape strong enough to justify the baggage? What you say is that there is some justification, because it has a benefit. Until such benefits are presented to justify child rape, torture, slavery, murder, etc I aint buying. How do we react if parents slap their kids across the face to teach them a lesson? We imprison them.
Now scale that slap up to raping the child. Do you think it would be welcomed? Thats the most immoral thing and self-righteous crap I have heard of, honestly.
And so that believers get strength? Yes, it is true that adversity makes you stronger. Does it make you stronger if you are killed in a horrible nature disaster? Does it strengthen your family if they are wiped out too? Does it strengthen you to be raped by 5 men each day of your life? These things happen in the real world, and they destroy lives. They dont strengthen anyone. They destroy. This is on a scale that is completely unacceptable if its all about getting up after being down.
@sjarke98-congratulations on all your comments above-you've seen through the absurdity of xtian doctrine and belief. Something else to consider: In Genesis why would a loving god/parent put a tree in plain view then say 'hands off' knowing full well what Eve would do (omniscience), then punish humans for eating the fruit? Look up the definition of a sadist and you'll find the answer. Keep questioning everything about xtian doctrine/belief and entire foundation will crumble away.
@satan1st666 Thank you very much. :) Oh yes, I will keep questioning this nonsensical system. :)
Oh yes, its an excellent point about the tree. Another great part of the story is of course that Adam and Eve gained moral knowledge WHEN they ate the fruit from the tree. Which means that they could not possibly know that eating the fruit was bad. Even if God told them they wouldnt know what the word Bad stood for. And for that God wants to torture us forever. Wonderful story. :)
@skarje98 another point to consider (and one of my favorites): notice how the xtians cherry-pick from the Torah - example: they vehemently despise homosexuals, yet ignore all the commands that include 'stone to death', like working on the sabbath. If society were to hold to that command, how many xtians would be dead next Saturday??
While I understand your valid argument of Take is as it is or leave it, I still congratulate those who pick and choose from the law in the bible. Because they do what I would have done. I am the judge of what I find morally good and bad. And those Christians recognize that which is great. What if they held all the immoral ideas of the bible. Then we would all be dead next Saturday. So I am grateful they think. But if they still claim that God holds the ultimate truth they are hypocrites. :)
no my oppinion on nukes is no country should have them. but if you look in the holy book how many times did god order the mass murder genocide or ethnic cleansing whatever you want to call it of any nation or group of people, and i mean aside from decimating the intire population of the world save for a few dozen or so by the way puts him in front of stalin and hitler in 1 day. he also is a fan of slavery and a score of other crimes
I would suggest this leads to the conclusion not that our ancestors corrupted our DNA (since they would hardly want to or know anything about that, not to mention it is irrelevant to many diseases since they are caused by microorganisms) but rather that the presence of a god is unnecessary for suffering or happiness to exist. As you say, "God didn't do it to us"
"I think that suffering is such a good plan because people don't want to do it. People will do anything not to be...uncomfortable "
I seriously hope you have reconsidered your stance. This is the most ignorant thing u could have said regarding this point. You are essentially saying that all the people suffering in the world have done it to themselves. How about all of the people with downs syndrome or Parkinson's or leprosy for that matter...how about malaria?Have they done this to themselves?
Lmfao, more mindless christian rambling without a point.
Fact still remains:
God is either impotent, or all powerful.
If he is all powerful, all knowing and created a planet like this, treating humans as his play things.. watching kids get blown up by mines in the congo etc.. then he is a malevolent mother fucker who I never want to see.
and if he is impotent, well he is impotent.. why call him god?
The only argument that makes sense is that he doesn't exist. Period
the tree of good and evil(adam and eve) one of the greatest bible contradictions. Does the word incest come into play here? Incest is a no no in the bible,.. Adam and Eve had children and the children had to have sex (incest) this can cause retardation from the punishment of god. So? why does the bible say not to incest??
I like how you use what humans do and say its justified for a supposedly perfect god. I think war is evil. Just because some people don't does it mean it isnt evil? I don't understand your logic.
You use the example of the child being spanked to teach a lesson, then you say that god isn't the cause of evil. You're saying that we ARE being punished or that we will be? either wawy do you think its ok to do it for all eternity with no hope of redemption. Similar to spanking a child FOREVER.
We should end this discussion if you think I am not smart enough to think for myself or is unable to come to my own conclusion. I directly responded to your text, almost verbatim with an answer. The truth. Now, you don't have to believe it but the but "Jesus is our redemption, he did die for our sins, so we can live Forever".
inocent people suffer because they are actually doing something wrong they don't understand? suffering= your kid was kidnapped, not, you have a hangover. individuals suffer for the sins of everyone
I figured as much. Your problem is homosexuality and you want to have oral and sex with Men. It is a sin. However God does love you. But homosexuality is abomination to your own flesh and soul to make you turn from your Creator. You can't serve two masters. You will love one and hate the other.
Also you want curse the people who put you on this earth? I just thanked my dad for being alive today. We lost mom last year.
And we nuke women and child wars today, at least God saves
From what exactly did you get homosexuality? You have one twisted mind if that's your fantasy, for me to be homo with you. Keep your gay dreams to yourself. I don't hate homos, but I don't plan on being a participant.
Oh go fucking lack of god! You are saying I took something out of context? You said some guy wan't providing evidence of god's horrible demands, and so that was one of three, you dumb shit. Christianity must really affect people's brains.
Go ahead and block away, dumb fuck. Just like any Christian. See what you want to, twist words and meanings, and then try saying we are the messed up ones for believing logic over blind and senseless faith.
Wow. Can't you control yourself? Have you lost control of yourself? With hatefulness from people like you it obvious while loving Christians make this world a better place.
Burning at the stake. Hangings for being a witch. Slaughtering entire cities. Rising from Rome to murder all who are not Christian. Yeah, better place. Sure. I have never killed a human.
Is this your way to deflect the attention away from your god, who obviously is a psychopathic murderer? It isn't working. Attacking the person doesn't defeat the message. And seriously, you really are an idiot.
Killing children is always wrong, you idiot. Glad you don't rule anything. You'd be another Hitler, or worse. I hated Bush (who's a Christian, by the way) and his choices. Bombing is always wrong. But for you to say that since we do it for this or that reason, it must be fine, is just fucked up. You are demented, you dumb shit. Fuck you and your maniacal god.
Your display hate and anger really shows a lack of stability. Anger shows a lack of reason. Since you don't pray please seek counsel. Please watch my youtube HELP video and dial the number.
Actually, I'm really pretty much fucking with you. I have a lot of homework because my major in college is pretty hardcore, so needed a way to break up the time. I have to do a lot of physics and heavy duty math.
As for a lack of stability. Read the bible. Your god is worse that Stalin!
Saying god wants us to suffer to be happy is like me saying Im going to kill you so you can live...its an oxymoron to say the least
rahkriga 8 months ago
I think I can sum this up in less than 500 characters - "You're an idiot"
Rahn127 8 months ago
God is above His Ethics? Then He is a Tyrant.
halolIlmao0 8 months ago
You are falling apart if God loved us he would have told us about Good and Evil. God saying to not eat of the tree of good and evil is a contradiction in itself. That is like you not telling your children about what is right and what is wrong. Did God follow his own Ethics? It looks like a huge NO.
halolIlmao0 8 months ago
Not reading the bible? You fail. I read the bible everyday. The Bible contradicts itself. Truth never contradicts itself.
halolIlmao0 8 months ago
you say that every body has a choice to believe what they want? (1:15) but in today society people are punished from not believing in god. i know form experience, when i am open about my not believing in god i am told im "going to hell." the U.S is ran by christian and you claim that you are a country made of freedom of speech, but it seems that you only get free speech when you are saying what the majority of the people want you to say.
videogamefreak110 8 months ago
@videogamefreak110 No one should have said that to you. The person who said that don't have a heaven or hell to put anyone in. Only God is a judge. Jesus didn't send anyone to hell while he was living on earth, so how is anyone on Earth living now going to send you to hell. Jesus came so nobody can do that to anyone. If you read his words for yourself you would know that. I'm sorry if they hurt your feeling, believe me, other's people who I love, who are christian try to do that to me as well.
AVTPro 8 months ago
@videogamefreak110 Soooooo Sooooo true!!! But the religious have absolutely no problem being hypocrites. the irony is....none of them are actually READING the book. For instance..Gen verse 1:26 states let US make man in OUR image. But they change it to god made us in his image. Religion is mind control. It tells you what to think..not how to think. Research the sumerians and their creation story which mentions Edin(eden) and the Adamu (adam)..nobody really wants to know the TRUTH!!
rahkriga 8 months ago
So if god didn't want man to have "knowledge" of good and evil, doesn't that mean that he had already made good and evil and was just keeping it hidden from us?
And did he not know that Eve would eat the fruit anyways? That's like putting a bottle of rat poison in your 2 year old kid's bed and telling him not to eat it... we would call that child abuse and bad parenting...
If there is a god, he is a terrible, abusive, neglectful parent. Anyone praising him is only furthering the problem.
Grimtheorist 8 months ago
@Grimtheorist ...no no no, u are almost right. it's like putting a bottle of rat poison in our 2 year old boy and girl's room, telling the boy not to eat it and then relying on the 2 year old boy to inform the 2 year old girl that she should not eat it. It makes perfect sence..lol
iflorence3 8 months ago
You say that suffering is a good plan because it is helpful to the human race in terms of guiding us away from negative things. However, if the Christian God is not only all-powerful but also totally kind, does he not have the power to eradicate these negative forces? This is the question. I can understand why suffering helps to be steered from evil, but under the same God, why does evil need t exist? This all is derived mainly from my own beliefs as well as gogreen18, who you referred to.
thisiswhyimhot1000 8 months ago
@thisiswhyimhot1000 If suffering is good to prove man for God how is it evil? If God created the Earth and said it is Good, then said don't eat of the tree of Good AND Evil, how is God at fault? He didn't make an evil Earth but a good one. and said stay away from evil. How is God creator of all things, but then need evil if he is the creator of All? especially if he put in tree, then told use not to touch it? How can you learn the answer about God and but not seek God to ask Him the answers?
AVTPro 8 months ago
@AVTPro
Simply put, the fact that you say he created the tree that is good and EVIL means that God did put evil into the world. This contradicts you saying God does not do evil, for if he had power over all and kindness for all, there should be no reason for Him to create evil.
thisiswhyimhot1000 8 months ago
I don't even understand why anyone bothers to argue with this "man", I believe is the proper term, though I would prefer to say boy, considering his mind set. He is obviously ignorant, and there for a waste of time when it comes to intelligent people, especially those who understand that suffering of the innocent is not a good thing. Though we should not ignore people like this. Our children/grandchildren will pay the consequences of people like this if we can't get them to come to their senses.
shawtyspice 8 months ago 5
@shawtyspice This is such a good point. This boy, I like how you said, has a misconception of a lot of things... I like how he really hos no idea what he is saying though. all you hear is "ahhh" "ummm" "you know uhhh" "in the movies..." "ummmmmmmmm" ... Yes, I will be sure to take someone like this seriously, as soon as I grow a third eye...
Pastafarian572 8 months ago 2
Confused, he is.
YODA
artwdog 9 months ago
OMG he sinned!!! GOD STRIKE HIM DOWN.........................*pulls out knife*
*stab*GOD STRUCK HIM DOWN HES DEFINITELY REAL NOW.
Dallas1Aguayo 9 months ago
bro she wasn't saying that the existence of evil refutes God's existence, she was saying that people do evil things in God's name, which is contradictory to whatever we're supposed to believe... and anyway what difference would reading the bible make, you're a fool of you think that a book that has seen thousands of years and hundreds of different languages is saying the exact same things it said when it was first written...
marcrib79 9 months ago
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Your reply didn't really answer my question. I was a bit upset when i reply because i don't understand when you say suffering is good but people don't want to do it and then I'm looking at these videos of dying & starving men, women and children all over the world but then you reply to me "Don't blame God when we vote for Republicans". i will be more respectful when replying on others beliefs. I am from a Baptist family. Can you give me your take on why these helpless children are dying
iflorence3 10 months ago
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iflorence3 10 months ago
Suffering is a good plan? after u said that i googled staving children of the world and could not figure what ur god's plan is for that. i would never make my grandson pay for the wrong my son did before my grandson was born. u can't argue with the brainwashed. i was raised baptist and believed with all my heart until i lost the fear of hell and started asking questions
iflorence3rd 11 months ago
@iflorence3rd Don't blame God when we vote for Republicans will do just that. Run up debt and leave it for our kids. You need to asked yourself what kind of hell will they be living in on EARTH if we screw up this nation. Don't even worry about spiritually.
AVTPro 10 months ago
@AVTPro Your reply didn't really answer my question. I was a bit upset when i reply because i don't understand when you say suffering is good but people dont want to do it and then I'm looking at these videos of dying & starving men, women and children all over the world but then you reply to me "Don't blame God when we vote for Republicans". i will be more respectful when replying on others beliefs. I am from a Baptist family. Can you give me your take on why these helpless children are dying
iflorence3 10 months ago
@iflorence3 Who has starved the children? God? When he has made a planet that has an endless supply of food, feilds and water? Who stores food up in silo and let it rot inorder to keep inflation price up? God? How has drove farmers out of business for the sake of corporation profits process and synthetic food manufacturing? God? Who drive people into the dessert to starve because they has gold, diamond and mininals? God. Own up to your own faults then you can begin to make things better.
AVTPro 10 months ago
@iflorence3rd If we suffered a LITTLE and stop all the lavishing spending your kids would live in a better world.
AVTPro 10 months ago
also go to park with your kid and by him ice cream, give it to him and tell him not to eat it coz u not alow it and if he eat it u will beat him up.
hellagesoon 11 months ago
@hellagesoon Bad analogy. Read the story, pray for forgiveness, and then remove your ignorant comment.
54tumelo56 10 months ago
not having understanding can lead to rest and its your issue, dont assume and w8st our time.
hellagesoon 11 months ago
And that is the sin that will take mankind to hell if they don't repent and surrender thier lives to Jesus Christ the only true diety manifested in the flesh. The first fruit of repentance is the death of ego and the surrender to Christ. If you ego doesn't die and your life is centered in Jesus Christ then you cannot be saved.
SlaveOfCrist 1 year ago
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Q. Why did God create the tree in the first place?
IF God is all knowing, then he would've known what Adam and Eve were about to do and the consequences thereof. You make the analogy of God using suffering to teach us a lesson. However, unlike god, human parents can't do most of the stuff that God supposedly can. We only teach our children about these things because there are these dangers in our world. But if God removes these dangers, He doesn't have to do so. Does God enjoy punishing us?
jianyang55555 1 year ago
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Q. Why did God create the tree in the first place?
IF God is all knowing, then he would've known what Adam and Eve were about to do and the consequences thereof. You make the analogy of God using suffering to teach us a lesson. However, unlike god, human parents can't do most of the stuff that God supposedly can. We only teach our children about these things because there are these dangers in our world. But if God removes these dangers, He doesn't have to do so. Does God enjoy punishing us?
jianyang55555 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Q. Why did God create the tree in the first place?
IF God is all knowing, then he would've known what Adam and Eve were about to do and the consequences thereof. You make the analogy of God using suffering to teach us a lesson. However, unlike god, human parents can't do most of the stuff that God supposedly can. We only teach our children about these things because there are these dangers in our world. But if God removes these dangers, He doesn't have to do so. Does God enjoy punishing us?
jianyang55555 1 year ago
Q. Why did God create the tree in the first place?
IF God is all knowing, then he would've known what Adam and Eve were about to do and the consequences thereof. You make the analogy of God using suffering to teach us a lesson. However, unlike god, human parents can't do most of the stuff that God supposedly can. We only teach our children about these things because there are these dangers in our world. But if God removes these dangers, He doesn't have to do so. Does God enjoy punishing us?
jianyang55555 1 year ago
@jianyang55555 I will answer your question with one verse that should bring us fear and trembling and give our lives to Jesus.
Colossians 1:16-17
"for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
We were made for his Glory alone not for our glory.
SlaveOfCrist 1 year ago
@SlaveOfCrist
Actually, in fact, this does not answer my question. First of all, you based your response on the presumption of God's existence, which we never agreed upon. But let's say you are right, that God "does" exist. What I'm getting from your argument is that EVERYTHING exists to reflect god's glory, which should logically include both good AND evil. Here's my question - if evil is a reflection of God, then shouldn't we be rewarded for evil acts, and not punished? That's not very just.
jianyang55555 1 year ago
@jianyang55555 You are commiting a grave sin approaching God as if you were on his level by questioning him and actually attributing evil to him sir.Evil does not come directly from God but is allowed by God.Evil is not so much a thing as it is the absence or seperation from Gods righteousness.So Evil exist because there are biengs absent and seperated from God's righteousness because of thier disobedience.So the devil full of evil is actually in better terms the devil empty of righteousness.
SlaveOfCrist 1 year ago
@SlaveOfCrist Also, if He hates evil so much, WHY does he allow it? It doesn't make any sense!
Oh, by the way, let me paraphrase what you just said: "If you don't do what God tells you to do, then you are evil". You might want to rephrase what you said to avoid making God sound like Hitler.
jianyang55555 1 year ago
@jianyang55555 You see your problem?Your comparing Hitler to God.God can do whatever he wants and it is righteous and good because he is righteous and good.But hitler is just a fallen man who is not righteous so he can do whatever he wants and it is evil. Sorry to put it so bluntly but God had a masterplan from the beginning and that masterplan in the end is to glorify Jesus Christ and unless you accept that then you're just lost.................CONTINUED ABOVE............
SlaveOfCrist 1 year ago
@SlaveOfCrist Actually, I'm suggesting that you are comparing God to Hitler - go back and reread my reply. And also, go back and reread what you wrote: "no matter the circumstance, even if God and Hitler were to do the same thing, God's action will be considered good and Hitler's evil". So, as a fallen creation, no matter what a person does, it will be considered evil to Christians? At the end, you basically suggested that God really don't care about humans. Why then, should we care about God?
jianyang55555 1 year ago
@jianyang55555 I never said that God don't care about humans. I never said that God and hitler would do the same thing.If you would have your eyes open to the light then you would be able to understand that passage i quoted.Read it again and let God speak.Your problem is that you want to interogate God as if he was on your level or on any created biengs level for that matter.He revealed himself through Jesus Christ in the time he preordained and predestined who was going to believe for his glory
SlaveOfCrist 1 year ago
@SlaveOfCrist I never wrote that you suggested that God and Hitler would do the same things. But you did suggest that even IF they were to do the same things, God's actions would be considered good and Hitler's evil. Seriously, go back and dissect your sentences - I merely paraphrased what you wrote. And where did I get the idea that God doesn't care about humans? His masterplan - if it's to boost his already bloated ego, we really have no place in it.
jianyang55555 1 year ago
@jianyang55555 ego?that only works for us. God can't have an ego because everything is supposed to be centered on him.We have an ego when we want to rob him of the glory due to him. It is you my friend that have the ego.You have a problem with God getting all the attention instead of you.That doesn't mean that God doesn't give us attention because he does.Even right now the only reason you keep taking breaths to fill your lungs is because he's making it happen.But God can't have an ego, HE'S GOD
SlaveOfCrist 1 year ago
@SlaveOfCrist Of course I have an ego. Everyone should have an ego. How can you be an independent person without pride in being alive and yourself? Actually, come to think of it, when you give all your devotion to a deity, you lose that independence.
jianyang55555 1 year ago
@SlaveOfCrist Why shouldn't I question him? It is precisely this blind faith that led to so many past atrocities. Think of the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, 9/11! You wouldn't blindly check-mark your presidential ballots. Neither would you marry someone without getting to know them first. Why would you give yourself to someone without at least finding out as much as you can about that person first?
jianyang55555 1 year ago
@jianyang55555 Ephesians 1:9-11 "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"
SlaveOfCrist 1 year ago
@SlaveOfCrist What does this mean? Seriously, stop quoting the Bible - it does nothing to further your point. The Bible is just a collection of (sometimes vague) statements without even the least explanation as to why it should be so. When you ask a murderer why he killed your family, you wouldn't accept "just because" as a valid reason. The same, I think, goes on in the heads of many people. They simply won't accept "just because" as a valid reason for giving their lives to an unknown entity.
jianyang55555 1 year ago
@SlaveOfCrist
I'd also like to point out another flaw in your argument - where exactly does it say that we must "give our lives" to our "creator"? It seems pretty hypocritical of God to give us "free-will" and then tell us we must obey him or suffer for an eternity. But of course, being omniscient, He would've known that some of us would not obey...which brings us back to the beginning - does God love evil? He does seem to be a pretty sadistic individual to want to watch so much suffering.
jianyang55555 1 year ago
@jianyang55555 1 John 1:5 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." Beware calling the Almighty evil because God is Holy, Holy, Holy. He is apart everything that exists and is beyond righteousness. Mankind is fallen and evil and that is why man has distorted views about God. The problem is that men want to stretch out one attribute of God which is love but God's love is as perfect as his wrath and justice.
SlaveOfCrist 1 year ago
@SlaveOfCrist Quite an quote of fanatical devotion you have there. Nevertheless, you just answered my question of "why does God punish us for no reason" with "because He is perfect". Great answer. Surely we must all follow His example and smite all those who won't obey us!
Seriously, though, if you truly believe that's the case, then I guess that's your choice. Personally, I like to believe that whatever God is, He isn't that. I don't know if He exists, but it'd be pretty cool if He does! :P
jianyang55555 1 year ago
right on bro..
etd43 1 year ago
if the evil we humans see, murders, rape and all that, is just *shows with fingers* so little as you say, what is then evil for him? u know that?
vkeiftw 1 year ago
Likewise, we kill people because we are weak. When we have sufficient power over our enemies, we consider it more moral to subdue them, rather than kill them. When we can, we consider it more moral to make them good people than to let them rot in prison. We do the less moral options because sometimes we can't do the more moral options.
God is omnipotent. He should never have to settle for any option but the best option.
Sines314 1 year ago
@Sines314 One of the most amazing posts I have read.
AVTPro 1 year ago
@AVTPro Either you are being sarcastic, or missing my point. God should never have to settle for mass murder to have things go his way. He should never teach us through suffering. He should never have made imperfect beings if he knew we would upset us.
God is supposedly perfect. There should never be the slightest imperfection, the tiniest hitch in his plans, the most momentary of regrets in his actions.
We do evil because sometimes, it's the best we can do. God has no such excuse.
Sines314 1 year ago
@Sines314 Romans 9:20-23 "Nay but, O man,who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God,willing to shew his wrath,and to make his power known,endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy"
SlaveOfCrist 1 year ago
@SlaveOfCrist So, God brought us into this world and he can take us out, eh?
Bullshit. People in power are considered moral only when they use their power justly. If God decides to cast me into hell for drinking orange soda, that's his prerogative, but it makes him a colossal dick.
By your logic, your parents brought you into this world. They therefor have every right to lock you in their basement and torture you. Sure, god can supersede them, but he's not against that kind of thing, is he?
Sines314 1 year ago
@Sines314 You don't even see your pride and niether does any other athiest or agnostic that hates God. Your problem is you're comparing God to my parents. God is out of our league, dimension, and comprehension so how can we actually think that we(needy little human biengs) can even talk back to God for what he lets happen. We should instead fear and pray to God to have mercy on us and others and run to Jesus Christ for soccour because only through him is there eternal life in God.
SlaveOfCrist 1 year ago
@SlaveOfCrist I don't hate god. Don't think he exists. Atheist, remember?
At any rate, I must ask you, if god is beyond us that we can't understand him, how do you know he's good and not evil? If a good god causes good and bad things to happen to you, how could you tell the difference from an uncaring god, or from an evil god who has nefarious reasons to make you happy occasionally?
I have to work from the knowledge I have, however limited. And god doesn't look too sparkly from down here.
Sines314 1 year ago
@Sines314 What you're not understanding is how finite and small we are and how infinitely mighty and great God is. You say that my parents brought me into this world and that they have every right to lock me in their basement and torture me but you're not getting it. My parents didn't even choose what time in history or place they were going to be born or how they were going to look and they sure didn't choose mines either. God is Almighty we are not, even if we can have children they are his.
SlaveOfCrist 1 year ago
If God's plan didn't account for good and evil, then he is not omniscient.
But the point isn't that it might not be WORTH the evil, the point is that the evil is unnecessary. I go to the dentist despite the suffering, because it's worth it, but why should I or anyone go to the dentist, if we could instead take a cheap pill to keep our teeth healthy and strong. God can make that pill, he can provide enough for everyone, and it would take less effort for him than it does for us to draw breath.
Sines314 1 year ago
@Sines314 You can't compare our parents (bieng used by God as a tool) in bringing us into this world through only one night of intimacy and God actually sustaining every atom in our bieng, choosing what time in history we were to be born, choosing where on earth, to what parents, how we were going to look, the color our hair and eyes were going to be. Our parents gave us no souls but God sustains our souls and we subsist in him. Your comparison of God and our parents is a misunderstood concept.
SlaveOfCrist 1 year ago
There is evil all throughout the Old Testament, as Joshua leads the slaughter of the Caananite WOMEN & CHILDREN, just because they didn't have the proper bloodline to survive the filthy Jew military conquests of Joshua. Anyone who supports the racist hate logic of a "chosen" people are INSANE, and they will be the filthy cause of the 3rd world war in the Middle East, more than anyone else.
EducatedRebellion101 1 year ago
I Corinthians 1:18The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.
Lrothtube 1 year ago
So if a child does something wrong because they don't know any better ie. they don't know about the knowledge of good and evil, you punish them because they didn't know any better? So when God told Adam not to eat from that tree, yet they did not yet know about good and evil it's OK for God to condemn them to a world of suffering, and ultimately to hell? If they didn't yet know the difference between good and evil then how could they know eating from the tree was wrong?
Kastner86 1 year ago
cont....of a punishment because serpents go about their serpent business graciously without the need for legs. Perhaps, if nothing else, the story helps us to understand why serpents can't walk and talk......should there be anyone wondering why serpents can't walk and talk. If it's true that god is "all-knower" who can anticipate to anything is about to go down, then the so-called "Fall of Man" seems to me to be a sinister setup by this god himself.
pedrom41 1 year ago
cont...."right" from "wrong" with a loaded gun at his sight and reach, and all you tell him is not to touch it. This child is created with an inquiring nature, thus pick up the gun and shoot himself then on top of that you punish that child. How do you coherently harmonize that? And what does this god do to the talking serpent for deceiving his two innocent creature? Well, not much. He simply coursed the serpent to "drag itself on its belly for the rest of its life," which it wasn't much.....
pedrom41 1 year ago
If this god has been good to Leroy Thompson, Andew Wommack, Kenneth Copeland, TD Jakes, Creflo Dollar and many others, why wouldn't this god do the same thing with those in real desperate needs? And why this god placed such a tree in the garden and leave them at the mercy of a crafty [talking] snake also created by this god himself? Didn't god know what the snake was going to do? He had to know, he's "Omniscient"-- isn't he? Imagine leaving your innocent child, who doesn't know yet.....
pedrom41 1 year ago
AVTPro, your rationalization is way to simplistic, and although you might think it explains something, the fact is that it doesn't. There are thousands of people all over the globe--particualarly innocent children--who are suffering and dying from malnourishment, diseases, and rampant starvation. How do you reconcile that with a "benevolent and merciful" god? I think coming to the rescue of those children would be a proven act of "benevolence"--don't you think? Cont.....
pedrom41 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Read your fucking Bible. God doesnt do evil? He murders more than 2 million people in the bible.. Kills EVERYTHING in a flood too. And on top of that he tortures people Forever. He has Satan walk around deceiving people so that they may be Burned. You can't be Serious. Use the brain your Sadist, Tyrannical, Hatefilled, Murdering, Jealous God gave you.
siggafree2 1 year ago
Read your fucking Bible. God doesnt do evil? He murders more than 2 million people in the bible.. Kills EVERYTHING in a flood too. And on top of that he tortures people Forever. He has Satan walk around deceiving people so that they may be Burned. You can't be Serious. Use the brain your Sadist, Tyrannical, Hatefilled, Murdering, Jealous God gave you.
siggafree2 1 year ago
@siggafree2 God is evil for destroying evil? It is man who sins.
AVTPro 1 year ago
@AVTPro Atheists never reply back... Great video
Capuano231 1 year ago
@siggafree2 God does not do evil you should read more about the flood the creatures that god killed were not fully human those were the nephilim an abomination.
stevesteve199 1 year ago
@siggafree2 Filthy Jew? I see. What amazes me about people like you is you would be all in favor of wiping out the native american idian so you can have this land. You would be in favor of slavery so the europeans can prosper to a super power. And now, you are probably in favor of war for oil so you can drive your car when you want. Yet when God says these people sin will cause society to fail, No Captive you question God about what he already knows about their sin.
AVTPro 1 year ago
@AVTPro
1. when did he say "filthy jew"?
2. how do you know he/she is american?
3. where does american natives and genocide come into all this? doesn't the former white settlers already own all of the u.s.?
4. actually, christianity existed alongside slavery for milinia and really didn't give a damn for the most part. slavery ended in the us because lincohn wanted to undermine the war efforts of the confederates...and get more votes (at least that's wt i think)
jianyang55555 1 year ago
@AVTPro
5. fact: crusaders killed muslims in the name of god so they can go to heaven - think about it.
6. if He already killed everyone who has the potential to do evil - WHY is there still evil???
jianyang55555 1 year ago
Comment removed
siggafree2 1 year ago
does anyone ever wonder how the hell god exists like where did he come from. i cant fathom the idea that someone some all powerful being just come out of nowhere and just exists.
rockwiller14 1 year ago
@rockwiller14 If you actually thought for a second it is easy to wonder.
God CREATED TIME. So, there was NO TIME when he made the Universe (Time) therefor, if there is no time you cant have a beginning. Do you get that?
Capuano231 1 year ago
Q - 08:36
A - 08:19
I'm a bit confused...
Netrom07 2 years ago
i never got spanked and i'm actually a decent human being. but how come we use logic when talkin about the bible? where's the logic in talking snakes?
omarlives 2 years ago
And what, WHAT is god 'punishing" the children who just got earthquaked to death in haiti for?
"god is above these things"
above what? caring?
Why does god punish people who haven't done anything yet?
"we did evil when he told us not to eat the thing and we did it (sic)"
Erm... god didn't tell me any such thing. HOW AM I RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF PEOPLE WHO PROBABLY DIDN'T EXIST
blackplatypus 2 years ago
"Suffering is a good plan BECAUSE they don't want to do it" wtf...
'what they understand is a spanking on the butt"
sure, but if you put the chemicals there KNOWING BEFOREHAND (omniscience) that your child is going to drink them and then punish your child for getting themselves into the situation you put them in you're an asshole.
blackplatypus 2 years ago
In the garden the tree was of knowledge of good and evil. before eating from the tree they didn't know shame or fear. they were "innocent" they wouldn't have known the "sin" that was eating from the tree in the first place. He set them up to fail and he knew beforehand that they would.
See, you're talking about "whatever god's plan for us" was. So are you conceding that he's not omniscient?
blackplatypus 2 years ago
Hahaha Not reading the bible. are you kidding me? A LOT of atheists read religious texts. there's nothing we love more than using the bible to refute itself!
Evil is like what to god? you're saying that a LARGE percentage of the world suffering and starving is not at all relevant to god?
blackplatypus 2 years ago
Were not saying that God cant exist because of evil.
Were saying that if there is an almighty all-knowing God which most of you believe then the existence of Evil shows that this God that could have wiped it all out chose not to. Why doesnt God get rid of Satan? Is he not powerful enough? Why does God allow such a being to exist? Yahweh may exist. But should we worship him? Most certainly not. Hes not a problem solver. We have reason to call him dangerous.
Sjarke98 2 years ago
@Sjarke98 First of all god is going to get rid of satan ur proably wonderind y dosent he do it know beacuse he is giving a warning to non-belivers so they can face eternal judgemnt and why does he let the devl tempt us because it streanths peoples faith for god. he is a problem solver to his children if he is not ur father why does he need to help you?so u need any explantion with wat im saying just ask me :)
yankeerule100 2 years ago
Thanks for responding. :) Yes, I have a few questions and comments.
So the reason there is evil in the world still is so that the non-believers are warned. This is not a warning for a non-manifesting world after this one. Consequences of things happen in this world. Problems in this world arent proof of happening in another world. If God wants to warn the non-believers he should show up face to face and explain what he is going to do.
Sjarke98 2 years ago
@Sjarke98 no the reason there is evil in the world is because of satan. god will take that out bye throwing it in the lake of fire. and getting u raped does actuaally help praying to god to help u in these times rember that only gods children can do this ((pray to him for help))people r going to die anyways soo that proves that disasters are the same word as natrual death. anhe cant warn a non-beliver caushe already did (bible) and the famlies that are hurt because of death will get streanth in
yankeerule100 2 years ago
god any more questions
yankeerule100 2 years ago
Please dont go in circles. Evil is because of Satan, who God CHOOSE not to stop, ergo God chooses evil to exist. And I want to know why.
God created evil and allows it to happen, so that people can seek help in God. Thats crazy. Just like people saying that God saves them from hellfire. Well, God was the one creating hell and wanting to put us there in the first place. So people go to God to be saved from God? Thats nonsense.
Sjarke98 2 years ago 4
@Sjarke98 tell me this: if i were to hold a gun to you and tell you to tell me you love me.. would you do it? If you did would you mean it? No, you dont know who i am, you know nothing about me.. I feel like in the same way God is going to let some things happen. I believe God has the POWER to control every minute detail of our lives, but i also believe He has a reason for letting us have choices. Let us choose to follow HIm (if he has called us) ..
justinnizzle 1 year ago
@Sjarke98 Evil is mans doing not Satan, he just introduced to us were the ones makin it flourish on this earth. Also have you ever heard of free will?
LordChiasson 1 year ago
@LordChiasson Evil is mans doing not Satan, he just introduced to us were the ones making it flourish on this earth.
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And how is that a point to mine? God created everything, ergo Satan too, God knows our thoughts and motives, and he knows the future, ergo he knew what Satan was made of and what he would end up doing to humanity. Yet god allowed it and did not intervene. Which makes God responsible.
Also have you ever heard of free will?
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Yeah?
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@Sjarke98 The point is He had free will, easy as that, Lucifer had not made the choice yet why would God punish him for a crime he has not committed yet? The decision was Lucifer's to make not God's. that's just like if we where to punish every person who had a thought of killing a person before they did it, very unjust if you ask me(example of course).
LordChiasson 1 year ago
@LordChiasson The point is He had free will, easy as that, Lucifer had not made the choice yet why would God punish him for a crime he has not committed yet?
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Well, the story of the golden calf seems to point to a God much willing to punish for an act that will be considered crime in the future, but other than that. Why allows Lucifer into being if God knew what he would do? I’m not talking about killing him, because I’m not in favour of death, but why allow for his being in the first place?
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@Sjarke98 Well the Golden cafe story, they where not being punished for future deeds they where already worshiping the golden calf, another God which was being addressed to them. Yet they continued to disobey God, therefore punishment. If you have knowledge of a being yet you choose not to give it life is it not the same as if you where to kill it? Of course being humans we could not define that as killing but what if that's, How God saw it? He loves all his creations
LordChiasson 1 year ago
@LordChiasson That’s just like if we where to punish every person who had a thought of killing a person before they did it, very unjust if you ask me.
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I agree. That would be very immoral. Yet Christians use this sometimes as an excuse. Like when God wiped out the entire earth with the flood, and we ask, the small babies too? Then many will answer that they were to grow up and become corrupted. But other than that. According to your beliefs, would people desire killing if it wasn’t for Satan?
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@Sjarke98 I see your point also such as the crusades. God can do no wrong also in are beliefs, children where killed, however had they been baptized(Roman Catholicism) they would have went to heaven sense children can not commit sin(up to a certain age not sure exact forgive me) seeing as how they have not grasped concept of right and wrong. I have to agree no, because Adam and Eve would not have fallen, However you still cant blame God for this. It was are curiosity that lead to downfall
LordChiasson 1 year ago
@LordChiasson Well the Golden cafe story, they where not being punished for future deeds.
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Oh no, and that wasn’t my point either. They were punished for breaking a law that did not exist at the time. They broke no law. Which to me would suggest that something likely could be done by the god of the bible also. It was just a comparison.
God can do no wrong.
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So good and bad are defined by God? If God pads a dog, it’s good. If God rips its limbs off, and lets it die slowly, it’s good too?
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@Sjarke98 Yet they continued to break the law after they had learned that what they where doing was wrong, where is the wrong in that? And you would be liable for the new law it had you been told about it, which they where, at least they where informed before action was taken against them all they had to do was stop and accept God. Yes, if God choose to do that its right, just as a parent tells his/her children "Do as I say, not as I do". Doesn't mean its right for us to do that.
LordChiasson 1 year ago
@LordChiasson However had they been baptized (Roman Catholicism) they would have went to heaven sense children can not commit sin.
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Well, at least I’m glad that you think children are innocent, as do I. But WHY on earth would children be punished for being born of parents of a wrong religion? That’s ... absurd and extremely immoral.
I have to agree no, because Adam and Eve would not have fallen. However you still cant blame God. It was are curiosity that lead to downfall .
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Cont.
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@Sjarke98 Going to Heaven is not punishment, paradise is what it is, so whats wrong going there? There souls are saved and they are immortal, of course this is my beliefs.
Well I can see how your comparing so let me just be blunt, Lucifer was not a dog, which has no free will by the way it acts on instincts, Also Lucifer just tempts humans,not bite, God wanted to see if are curiosity would get the best of us or would we follow him unquestionably,result we fail. Now we must prove worth Cont.
LordChiasson 1 year ago
@Sjarke98 Heaven, also the kids in ur example are doing nothing Adam and Eve disobeyed Gods words, and where punished. And as in my earlier post Lucifer was allowed so that we could prove are worth to enter heaven. He does love us cause he gave us a chance to enter paradise with Jesus,my beliefs of course. Man does evil to man, once Adam ate of the fruit this is what we gained. Of course we can argue on in on but you are arguing with logic against faith which neither of us will budge.
LordChiasson 1 year ago
@LordChiasson Yet they continued to break the law after they had learned that what they where doing was wrong.
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Then you need to go back and read the story again. :)
Yes, if God choose to do that its right, just as a parent tells his/her children "Do as I say, not as I do". Doesn't mean its right for us to do that.
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Nor does it mean that it’s right for God. Atheists are often accused for believing in subjective morality. This is one being’s subjective morality put on us by force.
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@Sjarke98 Well I really don't see what im missing about the story, plz enlighten me i have read it and cant see what your talking about when I give you my answer. Also the God that saved them from slavery an certain death is thanked by them worshiping a golden calf....hey man thanks :)
When I mean he is right, it means he is right, my beliefs are God is never wrong period.His morality Its not forced you can follow it if you wish, doing so just leads to everlasting life.
LordChiasson 1 year ago
@LordChiasson Going to Heaven is not punishment.
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Standing in the gate keeping good and innocent people out is. While, according to some belief systems, murderers can enter freely, as long as they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and saviour.
God wanted to see if are curiosity would get the best of us or would we follow him unquestionably.
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Is curiosity really that dangerous? Curiosity lead to asking questions, lead to answers, lead to knowledge, lead to the very society you live in.
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@Sjarke98 When has it ever said good and innocent people are kept out? Murders and all the others dnt just go for believing they have to truly in the heart be sry for the sins they have committed.
The very sex driven, money grabbing society Im in....hey man thanks :). Hiroshima come to mind? How bout all the great experiments of WWII done by the SS? Or all other great weapons we have built from are curiosity on what best way to kill each other.
LordChiasson 1 year ago
@LordChiasson Curiosity is one of the most important tools of humanity. But I’ll tell you a secret. The reason why God prohibits free thought, asking questions, doubt and curiosity, is this. The second you start asking questions, you’ll see that there’s probably no god. Seeking knowledge is a thread to religion.
And as in my earlier post Lucifer was allowed so that we could prove our worth to enter heaven.
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Kinda sounds like the method of the Jigsaw Murderer from the movie Saw, honestly.
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@Sjarke98 Well when you have eternal life on one hand, and then the short amount of time we here on earth, why is there a point to ask questions? you live die and then judged(my belief) I mean not saying you cant enjoy life or anything but why do you(anybody) need to know everything? Why extend the unavoidable? i see no point the short time here matters not tome
Probably? so your not sure if there is or isn't? Seeking knowledge can also be the doom of mankind. Some things are better left alone
LordChiasson 1 year ago
@LordChiasson Man does evil to man,
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But as you said not too long ago, this is only because of Satan. If Satan never existed, we would live in harmony.
Of course we can argue on in on but you are arguing with logic against faith which neither of us will budge.
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Fair enough. But why faith? Faith is believing without a good reason. If you had a good reason, you wouldn’t need faith.
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@Sjarke98 and as I also said but you never answered, wouldn't allowing something you knew you could create but did not be the same as murder?
Well I guess beside my Faith my good reason is I believe in God and his laws because they give me strength, courage, willpower. Keep me on course to where I want to be and what I want to do in my life.
LordChiasson 1 year ago
@LordChiasson The problem with the story is that they made the calf while Moses was on the mountain. Which means that the Ten Commandments had not yet been passed on to them, perhaps not even made. There was no existing law they could break. And they were not asked to take it down, not given the opportunity to understand, according to the story. They were punished immediately.
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@LordChiasson When I mean he is right, it means he is right, my beliefs are God is never wrong period.
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Yes, I understand. And how can’t you see a single problem with that? You must clearly think that if I torture a child, that’s immoral. The action is the exact same if we replace ‘I’ with ‘you’ or ‘John’ ‘Don’ or ‘Yahweh’. How can it be justified just because God does it? That makes no sense. This system you believe in makes morality meaningless. All you have is obedience without question.
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@Sjarke98 Your putting your self on equal footing of God, He is are superior. Its justified cause he created life and is offering everlasting life. I know you don't grasp it cause of course again we both have complete different ways of thinking(logic v.s. faith) so I guess we can just agree to disagree. It has been great debating tho I must say thank you for responding other peps don't really reply back
LordChiasson 1 year ago
@LordChiasson When has it ever said good and innocent people are kept out?
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When you said that children of the wrong parents are not allowed to enter heaven.
The very sex driven, money grabbing society Im in.
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Red herring. You know what I mean. You have a computer, medicine, time to spare for your enjoyment, you don’t have to fight for your life, fresh food, long lifespan, transportation, our society flourished because of people who were not satisfied with the answers of religion.
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@Sjarke98 Im sry if you misunderstood but I sayed all children do go to heaven, they have no sin(unless they are not baptized) of course during the flood(which I completely forgot forgive me) there was no entrance into heaven cause Jesus had not made his sacrifice for us. So all the innocent where prob in limbo I cant assume anything cause its not stated unless I missed it.
I understand what your saying but still all the luxurey of life are not needed Cont.
LordChiasson 1 year ago
@LordChiasson Your putting your self on equal footing of God, He is are superior.
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And I say that he isn’t just because you say so. Murder is objectively wrong, that’s what I believe. In all senses of the word. You, for some reason, don’t. I think it’s because you don’t like to put these word in to your mouth: “Yes, there are limits to God.” It feels good to have a limitless being on your side. So I don’t think I can get you to admit that God could do something that’s wrong.
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@LordChiasson I define morality as actions that help the flourishing healthy happy society. In short. God could technically destroy a society. Which he did. He stated himself that the people who built the tower of Babel were the healthiest strongest societies, and he destroyed it. God can destroy a society. If morality is about a healthy society, god can do immoral acts. If you define the word ‘moral’ to mean ‘what God does’, surely we won’t agree. I just don’t see that as a useful definition.
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@LordChiasson Im sry if you misunderstood but I sayed all children do go to heaven, they have no sin(unless they are not baptized)
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So not all children go to heaven. Only all children who are baptized. What about those who aren’t? Those born of parents of other religions are not allowed to enter heaven, that’s what you say. And I say that that’s not the fault of the child. Much like it’s not my or your fault whatever happened in the Garden of Eden.
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@LordChiasson Hiroshima, WWII, SS, weapons, curiosity on what best way to kill each other.
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Sure, curiosity for the bad. What’s the point? Nothing is perfect. Without oxygen you would die in a heartbeat. Yet, oxygen is a requirement for the fire than can burn your skin. Nothing is just good. And surely people will use science to create weapons. But according to your beliefs. That would never have happened, were it not for Satan. So we are back where we started. Why does Satan exist?
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@LordChiasson I see no point the short time here matters not tome.
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If I understand correctly, do you say that you see no point in life if it isn’t eternal? If so, please see my video called The Value of Life.
Seeking knowledge can also be the doom of mankind.
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I don’t buy that.
wouldn't allowing something you knew you could create but did not be the same as murder?
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No. Murder is killing someone who is alive. Very simple definition. But in essence, that's murder.
Sjarke98 1 year ago
@LordChiasson A parent put his son and his daughter in a room. Then he took a dog in the house, a mad dog by the way. But he allowed for the mad dog to be around the innocent children. Then one day, the mad dog bites the two children. The father saw it coming, of course, and he even saw the event, but did nothing to prevent it. That’s how much he loves his children. And afterwards, when the children are infected, that’s when he decides to punish them, and their future relatives. Thats the story.
Sjarke98 1 year ago
Secondly. I really honestly thing this is pure self-righteous nonsense. Strengthening people by having them raped. Could you possibly provide ONE single benefit from child rape strong enough to justify the baggage? What you say is that there is some justification, because it has a benefit. Until such benefits are presented to justify child rape, torture, slavery, murder, etc I aint buying. How do we react if parents slap their kids across the face to teach them a lesson? We imprison them.
Sjarke98 2 years ago
Now scale that slap up to raping the child. Do you think it would be welcomed? Thats the most immoral thing and self-righteous crap I have heard of, honestly.
Sjarke98 2 years ago
And so that believers get strength? Yes, it is true that adversity makes you stronger. Does it make you stronger if you are killed in a horrible nature disaster? Does it strengthen your family if they are wiped out too? Does it strengthen you to be raped by 5 men each day of your life? These things happen in the real world, and they destroy lives. They dont strengthen anyone. They destroy. This is on a scale that is completely unacceptable if its all about getting up after being down.
Sjarke98 2 years ago
@sjarke98-congratulations on all your comments above-you've seen through the absurdity of xtian doctrine and belief. Something else to consider: In Genesis why would a loving god/parent put a tree in plain view then say 'hands off' knowing full well what Eve would do (omniscience), then punish humans for eating the fruit? Look up the definition of a sadist and you'll find the answer. Keep questioning everything about xtian doctrine/belief and entire foundation will crumble away.
satan1st666 2 years ago
@satan1st666 Thank you very much. :) Oh yes, I will keep questioning this nonsensical system. :)
Oh yes, its an excellent point about the tree. Another great part of the story is of course that Adam and Eve gained moral knowledge WHEN they ate the fruit from the tree. Which means that they could not possibly know that eating the fruit was bad. Even if God told them they wouldnt know what the word Bad stood for. And for that God wants to torture us forever. Wonderful story. :)
Sjarke98 2 years ago
@skarje98 another point to consider (and one of my favorites): notice how the xtians cherry-pick from the Torah - example: they vehemently despise homosexuals, yet ignore all the commands that include 'stone to death', like working on the sabbath. If society were to hold to that command, how many xtians would be dead next Saturday??
satan1st666 2 years ago
While I understand your valid argument of Take is as it is or leave it, I still congratulate those who pick and choose from the law in the bible. Because they do what I would have done. I am the judge of what I find morally good and bad. And those Christians recognize that which is great. What if they held all the immoral ideas of the bible. Then we would all be dead next Saturday. So I am grateful they think. But if they still claim that God holds the ultimate truth they are hypocrites. :)
Sjarke98 2 years ago
kids that shoot up schools must be in the good book look at how many massacers god orcastrated
dusty8512 2 years ago
I bet you would be first to say nuke the arabs.
AVTPro 2 years ago
no my oppinion on nukes is no country should have them. but if you look in the holy book how many times did god order the mass murder genocide or ethnic cleansing whatever you want to call it of any nation or group of people, and i mean aside from decimating the intire population of the world save for a few dozen or so by the way puts him in front of stalin and hitler in 1 day. he also is a fan of slavery and a score of other crimes
dusty8512 2 years ago
I would suggest this leads to the conclusion not that our ancestors corrupted our DNA (since they would hardly want to or know anything about that, not to mention it is irrelevant to many diseases since they are caused by microorganisms) but rather that the presence of a god is unnecessary for suffering or happiness to exist. As you say, "God didn't do it to us"
decibel333 2 years ago
"I think that suffering is such a good plan because people don't want to do it. People will do anything not to be...uncomfortable "
I seriously hope you have reconsidered your stance. This is the most ignorant thing u could have said regarding this point. You are essentially saying that all the people suffering in the world have done it to themselves. How about all of the people with downs syndrome or Parkinson's or leprosy for that matter...how about malaria?Have they done this to themselves?
decibel333 2 years ago
Also yes you've heard these arguments before, we realize we've been saying these same things since the dawn of man.
The thing is, you fools still don't seem to want to let go of your medevil superstitions.
Instead your sheep insist on playing hot potato with burden of proof.
Thing is, you're the ones claiming incredible things, you're the ones who need to prove your talk, not us.
We've even humored you, despite your complete lack of proof, proving you wrong with logical facts.
godly04 2 years ago
and as for your point about how to god, suffering and good things both mean nothing to him.. you basiclly described your god as a sociopath.
godly04 2 years ago
Maybe you are watching another video? That has nothing to do what I said.
AVTPro 2 years ago
Lmfao, more mindless christian rambling without a point.
Fact still remains:
God is either impotent, or all powerful.
If he is all powerful, all knowing and created a planet like this, treating humans as his play things.. watching kids get blown up by mines in the congo etc.. then he is a malevolent mother fucker who I never want to see.
and if he is impotent, well he is impotent.. why call him god?
The only argument that makes sense is that he doesn't exist. Period
godly04 2 years ago
the tree of good and evil(adam and eve) one of the greatest bible contradictions. Does the word incest come into play here? Incest is a no no in the bible,.. Adam and Eve had children and the children had to have sex (incest) this can cause retardation from the punishment of god. So? why does the bible say not to incest??
captaindebunker 2 years ago
I like how you use what humans do and say its justified for a supposedly perfect god. I think war is evil. Just because some people don't does it mean it isnt evil? I don't understand your logic.
You use the example of the child being spanked to teach a lesson, then you say that god isn't the cause of evil. You're saying that we ARE being punished or that we will be? either wawy do you think its ok to do it for all eternity with no hope of redemption. Similar to spanking a child FOREVER.
chevon1920 2 years ago
Jesus is our redemption and the way to live with God FOREVER
AVTPro 2 years ago
But, that's not an answer. That's just repeating what people have told you since you were a child. Or where ever you've heard it.
chevon1920 2 years ago
We should end this discussion if you think I am not smart enough to think for myself or is unable to come to my own conclusion. I directly responded to your text, almost verbatim with an answer. The truth. Now, you don't have to believe it but the but "Jesus is our redemption, he did die for our sins, so we can live Forever".
AVTPro 2 years ago
inocent people suffer because they are actually doing something wrong they don't understand? suffering= your kid was kidnapped, not, you have a hangover. individuals suffer for the sins of everyone
omgitsafox 2 years ago
The rain doesn't fall on one roof. Nor does the sunshine. IN this world bad things happen even if we consider ourselves to be good.
AVTPro 2 years ago
I noticed that you asked for evidence of god's atrocities, though the person speaking did not offer any. Let me be of some help in this matter...
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Leviticus 20:13
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death..."
Leviticus 20:9
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.
Happy to help.
Kiru26 2 years ago
I figured as much. Your problem is homosexuality and you want to have oral and sex with Men. It is a sin. However God does love you. But homosexuality is abomination to your own flesh and soul to make you turn from your Creator. You can't serve two masters. You will love one and hate the other.
Also you want curse the people who put you on this earth? I just thanked my dad for being alive today. We lost mom last year.
And we nuke women and child wars today, at least God saves
AVTPro 2 years ago
From what exactly did you get homosexuality? You have one twisted mind if that's your fantasy, for me to be homo with you. Keep your gay dreams to yourself. I don't hate homos, but I don't plan on being a participant.
Kiru26 2 years ago
Talk about out of context. So I am talking to someone who can't even read what you wrote? I am going to block you soon . YOU Pasted this. READ
Leviticus 20:13
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death..."
AVTPro 2 years ago
Oh go fucking lack of god! You are saying I took something out of context? You said some guy wan't providing evidence of god's horrible demands, and so that was one of three, you dumb shit. Christianity must really affect people's brains.
Go ahead and block away, dumb fuck. Just like any Christian. See what you want to, twist words and meanings, and then try saying we are the messed up ones for believing logic over blind and senseless faith.
Kiru26 2 years ago
Wow. Can't you control yourself? Have you lost control of yourself? With hatefulness from people like you it obvious while loving Christians make this world a better place.
AVTPro 2 years ago
Burning at the stake. Hangings for being a witch. Slaughtering entire cities. Rising from Rome to murder all who are not Christian. Yeah, better place. Sure. I have never killed a human.
Is this your way to deflect the attention away from your god, who obviously is a psychopathic murderer? It isn't working. Attacking the person doesn't defeat the message. And seriously, you really are an idiot.
Kiru26 2 years ago
I point out that your god order slaughter, even of children, and your response to that is to justify it with modern war? You're fucked up.
Kiru26 2 years ago
Killing women and child is OK for money and oil but not God's war on evil itself. Are in no position to call me anything.
AVTPro 2 years ago
Killing children is always wrong, you idiot. Glad you don't rule anything. You'd be another Hitler, or worse. I hated Bush (who's a Christian, by the way) and his choices. Bombing is always wrong. But for you to say that since we do it for this or that reason, it must be fine, is just fucked up. You are demented, you dumb shit. Fuck you and your maniacal god.
Kiru26 2 years ago
Your display hate and anger really shows a lack of stability. Anger shows a lack of reason. Since you don't pray please seek counsel. Please watch my youtube HELP video and dial the number.
AVTPro 2 years ago
Actually, I'm really pretty much fucking with you. I have a lot of homework because my major in college is pretty hardcore, so needed a way to break up the time. I have to do a lot of physics and heavy duty math.
As for a lack of stability. Read the bible. Your god is worse that Stalin!
Kiru26 2 years ago
I thought college was to help you become intelligent? LoL.
AVTPro 2 years ago