there are everyday people who claim they are true christians and they are not. read revelations it says all. many will be decieved! and you are probably among the many who are or will be. all i know is that i have my own straightening up to do. not everyone is perfect! thats why you can ask for forgiveness. but not everyday for the same thing.
God isnt going to make everything perfect for everyone here on earth. if that was the case then there would be no heaven, we would already be there, here on earth. not so. God also punishes people who deserve it. it has happened to me. there is a such thing as devil worshippers who have there own churches and such. what do you think God should change them too???????? he tests people to see their faith and how strong it is. and yes everyday christains can fail.
my mother was diagnosed with throat cancer last year. after some odd radiation treatments (ill say 60) and almost losing her voice, which is still not right and probably never will be, SHE SURVIVED! through prayer from the church, family, and friends along with herself praying. besides from the looks of it i am talking to someone who wants to act stupid. if you have a question look it up in the bible, because oblviously im not any help to you.
@ihatechildabusers1 So what about the atheists that survive cancer too even though they did not pray? What about all the other religions that pray for healing to their gods and their people get healed of cancer?
I am not "acting stupid" that is a cop out, I am asking you legitimate questions. Can your faith pass the test?
Jesus was a JEW. Christianity is an OUTGROWTH of judaism, STOP FOLLOWING and WAKE UP from the slavery that is "god". By believing in this MYTHOLOGY you're giving up your basic rights to THINK freely and LIVE as one should, not through restrainment of religion. Does it make sense to help those who killed you? NO, it's a CON to get you to LOVE jews for killing YOUR savior! STOP BEING STUPID!
once a while ago i had this unimaginable pain in my right breast and along with it was a huge lump on the side. i suddenly got scared and went in for a mammogram. turns out their is nothing wrong. well days went by and it never got any better. then one night i was in so much pain i began to pray to God to take my pain away and during the prayer i could feel tingling in my right breast on the lump. just minutes after i had finished praying i no longer had any pain. Tell me that isnt God working.
@03030303 No, there is no evidence at all of god healing amputee's. That means that what ever is amputated, whether it be arm or leg, grows back and there is evidence of it growing back with your gods ulitmate healing.
Then anyone who does not absorb this truth is in denial. And denial is the basis of human psychosis. I guess it all makes sense now.
I have always felt more comfortable around people in a liquor store than in a church. In a liquor store there is no pretentiousness or judging. No one gives a damn about your appearance.
No scotch drinker spouts off to a vodka drinker that his liquor is the one true beverage.
I also know AA members who consider each other true brothers.
@changingmyself you are going to believe whatever you want too regardless of what i say, but if you dont have complete faith in him or believe that he is real or that he died on the cross for you then well i dont know what to tell you. i was brought up believing in God, and this isnt the only prayer he has answered nor the only miracle he has made for me. i thought that pin pointing this moment would make some of you see that he does work through prayer. believe with your whole heart and soul.
@changingmyself probably because they are like you. they probably dont believe. you are questioning Gods work. why this is or why this isnt. i only know so much. if God healed an amputee that would mean that his limbs would grow back. well what was the reason for the amputation? if it was because of cancer or an accident for example, do they not have their life? instead of noticing the negative here look at the positive that so many dont seem to see.
@ihatechildabusers1 Don't waste your time with "changingmyself", she's a bigoted troll, yeah? "Why God doesn't heal amputees" is the lamest atheist querry ever devised. Pain and suffering exist on this planet to give OTHERS the chance to excell. We are at our best when things are at their worst. (easily answered). Ask her about her beliefs in ancient Egyptian giants and changling lizard aliens, that'll shut her up. Just advisin' ;)
@changingmyself you might as well ask me why God doesnt heal the gay. what is your thoughts on gay people? it is an abomination to God for a man to lay with a man or a women with a women, here is where you can find it in the bible, Leviticus chapter 18 verse 22. have you ever looked or read the bible? also in Luke chapter 11 verse 9, it talks about prayer. try reading the bible you will find interesting things. if you dont seek or ask it will not be given.
@changingmyself Typical TROLL response, yes? What is your take on diabolic possession/oppression, Oh great sage of the interent? Can't answer? That's what I thought. Just illuminatin' ;)
his name is brian leonard golightly marshall he has been reincarnated on this earth in 1944... the earth is his temple and his creation... all you christians out there, you are following a lie... he won't come back in the clouds, he is already here...
I'm14 year old girl and I find religion ridiculous. It's just another way to scare people. Seriously? People live their lives trying everyday not to go to hell. WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS, Why the hell are their sins , and we were created to do those things that are sins. Lmao..
@detacher0123 Yeah but you still have to live your life constantly thinking of every thing you do and making sure you do everything perfectly and up to gods standards. Why were we created with the capability to do the things that are concidered wrong. I find it kind of ridiculous still.
@MusikkIzMiLiffee not so tough on your self k ,.. its a faith thing ,. if you need think his name , is a chrisis ,. and see. im a down to eart person k ,. no kook,.
Jesus is not real. A man-made character is all he is. The SUN is the real Jesus. Jesus is a copy-cat messiah. The holy word that the Christians rely on is a complete lie! There is no truth in the mess. Religion....PERIOD....was started in the Motherland. The Christian idealogy is stolen out the caves and pyramids that are located in Luxor, Egypt. The writing is on the walls.
@montaquemcfadden1978 yea how ever we dont have to worry about satans' spelle,.. ie followers ,.. or going to hell,..etc , he died for all our sins,..
@detacher0123 Oh so in some magical way this magic man from the past knew what we were going to do in the future so he died. I don't believe in people with higher power above us. We are all equal.. I don't really feel the need to believe in it but at the same time I do.. but really it's not my problem. Believe in whatever you want and have disbelief in whatever you want.. everyone has their own rights to believe in what they want to I'm in no place to judge you for that,I find it ridiculous.
Most history is fiction, because it is always written by the victor. In the dark age west the victor was Christianity. The victor of course always put themselves in the best possible light. The history we've been fed is complete utter BS.
Must - I wrote: " If you REALLY look at it, it's a crosscut of religions and the bottom line is that it is fundamentalist belief in all religions that causes the problem, "
This is a very good article about just that very thing: .alternetDOTorg/story/151505
If ever there was an argument for abortion, it would be Paul who started the malignant pagan story - a Herodian (a wannabe Jew), Ebionites say a Greek convert to got the hots for the priest's daughter and converted, a Roman citizen. She turned him down and he turned on the Jews.
udaism is a monotheistic faith, meaning that Jews believe there is only One God. Often this God is beyond our ability to comprehend, but God is nevertheless present in our everyday lives. How individual Jews choose to understand this manifestation of the divine varies. Some connect with God through prayer, others see the divine in the majesty of the natural world, others may not think about God on a daily basis. Each individual's relationship with God is unique and personal.
@Matthew1944, i find it very difficult to believe that Moses was a true monotheist because he wrote about the elohim ("they who are mighty"). They're the ones who said "Let US make man in OUR image". The idea of the oneness of "God" in the bible is a reference to their unity of purpose and harmony, whereas foreign gods were often at war or conflict with each other. That said, there is only a reference to two divine beings in the NT, the "Logos" (Word) and "God", not a pagan trinity.
@muslUnbounded Now this is a problem of translation between Jews and non-Jews - a language idiom. The word Elohim possesses a plural intensive syntax and is singular in meaning. Hebrew word chayim, meaning "life." Notice that this word contains the identical plural suffix "im," as in Elohim, yet it repeatedly means "life", in the singular, throughout the Bible. Example: And the LORD said unto Moses, "See, I have made thee a god (Elohim) to Pharaoh.
@Matthew1944, and what about, "Let US make man in OUR image"? Was god speaking to himself like a crazy guy? or was he communicating with his logos?
so i looked up "god" in the online Strong's Concordance & it says "elohim" has two tenses (plural & plural intensive), so this is not conclusive.
Either way, in Genesis god makes everything in dualism--night & day, dry land & sea, heaven & earth, male & female, sun & moon. Logically, the universe would reflect the qualities of its two creators.
@muslUnbounded Strongs is written from a Christian perspective. If you want to know what it REALLY means - ask a rabbi. He will use the ORIGINAL book and will be glad to explain his book to you. KJV was translated in the middle ages. During that period of time, grandiose speech was commonplace. Queen Victoria was know for the comment "We are not amused". Does this mean she had a split personality?
@Matthew1944, strong's concordance is a lexicon not a commentary like the talmud. jews have also been influenced by other cultures for millenia, in fact, genesis may well be nothing more than a ripoff of the babylonian genesis stories that they stole while in babylonian captivity.
there is nothing special about jews or the bible. i wouldn't be surprised that the romans adopted the bible because they wanted to conceal really valuable information that other cultures had.
@muslUnbounded there is nothing special about jews or the bible"
I agree with you on that one. The fact is that very early in its history, Christianity made a final split from Judaism and has become a completely different religion, complete with the edited text they created. It really isn't a matter of who is right and who is wrong. They are just diametrically opposed.
@muslUnbounded What two creators? Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.
Hosea 13:4 Yet I am YHWH your G-d from the land of Egypt; and you shall know no god but me, and besides me there is no Savior.
DEU 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
jesus set the example of a pacifist for humans, because humans are not qualified to "make war in righteousness" and spiritual development requires humbling yourself and following the difficult path to peace. But when he returns (according to the bible) he will rule with a rod of iron, which I'm happy i won't have to endure.
@muslUnbounded That is the story the NT tells, certainly. The Romans stepped in only in cases of sedition and treason. Jesus wasn't a Roman so the only charge could be sedition. Crucifixion was the method used for a crime against Rome. That leaves me thinking that there is more to the story than we have been told. Also, Jesus said,
“But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.” (Luke 22:36 NASB)
@Matthew1944, anyway, paul doesn't destroy judaism, the NT provides more color to the OT as the passover, days of unleavened bread, feast of firstfruits, etc acquire far more spiritual meaning than what the jews had. paul teaches that gentiles become jews when they become christians. it's the romans who abandon original christianity and gentilize it into catholicism--abandoning almost every shred of christianity in the process to keep their own pagan traditions.
@muslUnbounded Paul came along 30 years after Jesus died, never knew him and didn't study under the apostles. He made his story up on the fly and after being accused of preaching heresy at Antioch and being saved by Roman soldiers, returned to Rome where his story, with the man-god and virgin birth, was already familiar to pagans who converted readily. Gentiles don't become Jews when they become Christians - they remain Christians. Original Christianity under Jesus was Judaism - no man god.
@Matthew1944, what source are you getting "Paul came along 30 years after Jesus died" from? Because I don't think anybody believes that. Paul martyred Stephen shortly after Jesus' death and was converted shortly after that, 31-36CE according to Wikipedia.
jesus was a jew & his followers become part of him. gentile christians are grafted into the israelite "olive tree" through jesus. real christians kept the jewish festivals and commandments but understood their fuller meaning.
@muslUnbounded Jesus began preaching in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius which was 29AD. His ministry lasted about a year before he was executed. Paul's first writings came in about 59AD.
Gentile Christians weren't grafted into anything. Jesus stated that he was sent only to the Jews and directed his apostles to avoid gentile towns.
@Matthew1944, yes, jesus was sent only to israel, but in Matt 28:19 he tells his disciples to go everywhere. In fact, if he had gone to the world then there wouldn't have been an excuse to include gentiles (rom 11:25).
jesus is traditionally acknowledged as having preached for 3.5 years, not 1 year, being "cut off in the midst of the week" (Dan 9:26). This line also shows the messiah being killed by the enemy, not triumphing as the jews expect.
@muslUnbounded Exactly - the world - Everywhere there were Jews from the diaspora who were losing their faith and becoming Hellinized, becoming more pagan. You must remember that after their dispersal from various captivities, there were more living outside of Israel than within it. This is also why the Talmud was written - Because the rabbis weren't able to guide their people in the biblical interpretations and the Talmud was the substitute.
@Matthew1944, one must always be careful when religious people give their interpretations, the talmud is no exception. in pagan versions of "christianity", the pagan immortal soul concept is a basic belief, so (Luke 13:3)
"except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" is something they gloss over (& John 3:16). the NT contains an account of various "apostate" forms of judaism rife in jesus' day including sadduccees and pharisees, and we have also heard of essenes. there were many others.
@muslUnbounded John isn't the apostle John. He was a very well educated non-Jew, a Christian convert who was documenting hearsay 60-80 years aftr the fact. He is passing along what is already believed by Pauline Christians.
There were four major groups as documented by Josephus at the end of the first century: Pharisees, Saducees, Samaritans and Essenes. The Essenes numbered no more than 4000. Neither Jewish Christianity nor Pauline Christianity is mentioned.
@muslUnbounded The numbering and content in the Tanakh has been changed in the OT so I'm assuming you mean: Isaiah 11:1-2 The BRANCH is defined as a root out of Jesse and as the Messiah, the anointed one. Missionaries conclude, therefore, that Jesus "must" be the Messiah.
The Reply is that, yes, the Messiah will be of the house of David. But, as I pointed out before, Joseph was said not Jesus' father, so Jesus is not of the house of David.
@Matthew1944, i was actually asking about the "ensign to the gentiles" reference.
but jesus gets his human dna from mary who is a descendant of david (unless of course, god injected actual david dna into the embryonic jesus! we can get imaginative about what an "omnipotent being" can do). 2 different genealogies are presented in Luke 3 and Matt 1, one for each "parent". the issue is not discussed in the NT and can lead to interesting speculations.
@muslUnbounded A Jewish mother cannot pass on lineage, must. If Jesus got his DNA from his mother, he would be a clone and would have been a female only. Magic doesn't cover it. Neither geneology given in the bible applies. Jesus could only get his lineage from his natural father. The first chapters of Matthew are later Christian add-ons. Luke admits to not being an eye witness but in fact, is passing on stories already in circulation.
the bible doesn't discuss what happened with jesus' dna. 2 speculations:
1) jesus was a "clone" of mary. females have two X chromosomes, males are XY. a Y is an X with a piece broken off. so jesus could have received her dna with an X broken.
2) jesus received actual david DNA, mary was just a vessel.
if god incarnated, he did whatever he wanted & didn't explain it to a pre-dna culture.
@muslUnbounded Mary was Jewish and could only give Jesus his Jewishness. She didn't come from the right line, must. Her lineage went back through Nathan to David. The lineage of the messiah was to come down through Solomon. I'm afraid that's not how genetics work, must. She could only pass on female chromosomes (matrilineal DNA). The male dictates the sex. There was no male involved, right?
@Matthew1944, the genealogy presented in Matt 1 is through solomon.
as for jesus's dna, it is not discussed in the bible. the questions can ONLY be asked today and explained today in light of dna research. if jesus actually was miraculously conceived, then god did whatever he chose, including using dna directly from david's 1000 year dead corpse.
if you don't think there could be "magic", then you should also understand that god also didn't part the yam suph because he doesn't have "magic".
@muslUnbounded The geneology in Matt is for Joseph. Joseph was not Jesus natural father. A Jewish father cannot pass lineage to an adopted son. Jesus would have been considered to be a "mamser".
..............
DNA from a 1000 year corpse? That's pushing it, must. Scientists tried to impregnate an elephant with mastodon sperm taken after it was recovered and thawed - could not be done.
The process you're describing is pure paganism. God plus virgin = man-god who sacrifices himself.
@Matthew1944 3) The first two chapters of Matthew and the first three chapters of Luke were added in the second century by Hellenizers who would accept only a divinely born savior-god like those of the pagan mystery-cults. . . ." (Dr. Martin A. Larson, The Essene-Christian Faith, p. 175)
@Matthew1944, many "dr's" have theories. they can put forth all the theories they need to but theologically speaking, if christ was a mere human with no previous existence as yhwh and had sacrificed himself, his death would at most pay for one man's sins, his own. all the chapters related to sacrifice would therefore also have to have been added with the ones you mention.
modern judaism is very different from moses' religion, so yes, it can be a reaction to "christianity".
@muslUnbounded Theologically speaking, Christ the divine is a Christian invention.
How is modern Judaism different? Unless the idea of discontinued animal sacrifices is what is making the difference to you. Rules are the same. Laws are the same. The book hasn't changed in 2500 years. The Jews actually don't push their information but are willing to share if one is interested. Once you know what they have to say and you have researched history, the belief in Christianity is gone.
@Matthew1944, it doesn't matter if the book stays the same for 2500 years. judaism is a pale reflection of the book with different things being important in different eras. pompey's troops were helped by the fact that aristobulus prohibited fighting them on the sabbath, but israel fought on yom kippur in 1973. Do you have sadduccees or essenes anymore?--did the ancients have haskalah, reform, or neologs? judaism is a product of its times.
@muslUnbounded Sadducees and Essenes were killed off long ago and not by fellow Jews. Yes Israel fought BUT you don't realize that life and death situations trump the sabbath. For instance if a person is dying, there is no problem with a life saving procedure on a sabbath. The "ancients" had different shades of intensity within Judaism then, just as they do now - from the liberal to the ultra-orthodox. Same as Christianity has its liberal Christians vs fundamentalists.
"Sadducees and Essenes were killed off long ago and not by fellow Jews"
funny how Rome left the pharisees around, they must have been good friends and allies.
"Jesus was not a prophet"
Matt 24 is a long prophecy (1) of jesus's and as someone who talked for god (2), there's 2 reasons to call him a prophet, especially if you consider the dog mohammed a prophet.
"No temple, no alter - no sacrifices"
sacrifices are performed throughout Genesis without a temple.
@muslUnbounded The Christian Christ is the product of mythology and legend, must. I don't consider Mohammed a prophet either. "Prophets" are a product of an overactive imagination and credulous thinking.
You forget that the first five books of the Jewish text were purportedly written by Moses, probably another myth. Genesis, exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy - a mixture of ancient laws and myth.
"The Christian Christ is the product of mythology & legend"
This is something that requires far better scholars than we have studying the issue, because while it is true IF RCism is christianity, the RCs have NOTHING to do with the bible. the jesus of the NT is in NO WAY antinomian (neither is Paul (Rom 3:31)), he NEVER treats Mary as an incarnation of Isis, he never sanctions sunday, pagan festivals, birthdays, rosaries, sacred hearts, & especially NO political involvement.
@muslUnbounded The RCs glommed onto the idea of the god-man and built a corporation around him, complete with confession, limbo, baptism to save souls, praying to Mary and the numerous saints. Did you know there is even a saint for sore throats? The mumbo jumbo was created to bypass rational thinking on the part of the sheep, to keep control and keep the money coming in. Of course, no English bible was allowed and Latin was used. BUT without them, there would be no protestant Christianity.
TRUE! but the only thing they took from christianity was the bible, and they falsely re-interpreted EVERYTHING in it (that's why people say they don't understand the bible). the logos was god, then man (jesus), then god again--never god-man. 1 John 4:3
"And every spirit that confesseth NOT that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist". Flesh = purely human. John saw lots of antichrists in his time.
@Matthew1944, the term antichrist means opposed to christ (and his doctrines), the false belief that there was one antichrist is based on the error of calling the beast "Antichrist"--while he is anti-christ, lots of people are, especially the false prophet (of Revelation). there is no special quality about John being the "official mentioner" because you can see from 2 Thess 2:3-4 that Paul referred to him as the "son of perdition" and the understanding circulated around the mediterranean world.
@muslUnbounded " that Paul referred to him as the "son of perdition" and the understanding circulated around the mediterranean world."
Paul was long gone by the time Revelation or the gospel of John were written. Pauls initial writings date to 59AD and it wasn't much longer afterward that he returned to Rome. The gospel of John was written 90-110 AD so Paul could not have been referring to John or anti-christ since John hadn't invented that term in Paul's time.
@Matthew1944, i don't take very seriously the dates attributed to the various books. You know how they have to work, don't you? if a book was written in 1400 & copied in 1500 & 1600, but only the 1600 edition can be found then the only antiquity they can attribute is 1600.
these are christian documents, & the christians were wiped out VERY early on (in the 1st century), so they are likely older than "accepted" dates. And John 21:23 is an indication that John would live a long life.
@muslUnbounded 3)A stormy protest ensued in which Paul feared for his life and was rescued by the Roman police, to whom he declared for his protection that he was a Roman citizen. This surprising announcement was the end of Paul's association with the Jerusalem Church, "
@muslUnbounded - but the only thing they took from christianity was the bible, and they falsely re-interpreted EVERYTHING"
And that is the bible we are left with today. In the oldest known Bible to date, the "Sinai Bible" housed in the British Museum , there is a staggering 14,800 differences from today's Bible.
i'm not familiar with these alleged 14,800 differences (lol, is 1 of them that most bibles today are written in english?), but the "magic" of RCism is that you can steal the bible documents which express a totally alien religion to their's & people will swallow the lie that everything in the bible actually means the opposite of what it says. they don't need to change it, they just claim to be the ONLY ones who can "interpret" it, & lie about what it says.
"They may CLAIM to be the only ones able to interpret it but the bible itself says that it is written that even the simple can understand it."
ah, you've restored my higher expectations of you!
Matt 11:25 "At that time Jesus said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."
the "learned" always try to read things into scripture that aren't there & lead themselves astray.
where does the idea that protestants have validity come from? sure, they are an improvement over RCism, but they are not real christians either. authentic christianity can always arise out of reading the bible, but not if you put the pagan doctrines on it.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish [FRY IN HELL]". They strike out "perish" because they claim we are immortal "souls".
@muslUnbounded None of them excel over the other in validity. I can't say that protestantism is an improvement either.
None of them help anyone unless there is that bottom line - conversion. I don't think there IS an "authentic Christianity". It started with one form, changed into another quite different from the first, then changed again. If you sit back and look at them from the outside, they all look like ridiculous fairytales - akin to studying how Greek mythology was adopted by Romans.
@Matthew1944, "I can't say that protestantism is an improvement either."
RCism is grossly blasphemous against god. It's popes make their peons worship them as the "Holy Father", a title that can ONLY belong to God the Father. popes plummetted the world into the dark ages and ignorance, killing millions in persecutions and inquisitions and because of their bans on hygiene. The RC countries were far more backward than protestant nations. The USA would have been another Mexico if it was RC.
@muslUnbounded The USA would have been another Mexico if it was RC."
True - the ten countries in the world that lead in crime and murder are, with the exception of one I think, all Catholic. Highly secular countries do better by far. Of the ten top countries in the world to live in, there is only one which is Catholic and that is Ireland.
@Matthew1944, if the USA had been RC it would have been another Mexico because RCism exists solely to reinforce the old fascist roman order where a dictator (emperor) protects & glorifies the religion bureaucrat (pope) who sanctifies the dictator. That's the beast & false prophet system of Revelation. There's a class of ubermenschen ("nobility") & the rest are serfs. Wealth & power for few, poverty & misery for the vast majority. The USA is on that path & its own RCs will accelerate it.
@msam1970, you might be right, Obama had to "meet" with the cult of superstition's local inquisitors when he was trying to make a deal with the republicans on keeping the government going back in April. The catholics are deadset against caring about living people (and organizations like Planned Parenthood, who actually do care about people) to pretend that they care about embryos, most of which are naturally aborted by nature/"God".
@muslUnbounded "The Pharisaic school of thought is the only one that survived the destruction of the Temple. The Zealots were killed off during the war with Rome. The Sadducees could not survive without the Temple, which was the center of their religion. The Essenes, who were never very numerous, were apparently killed off by the Romans (they were easily recognizable in their isolated communities).
@muslUnbounded 2) Some think that the Essenes may have been absorbed into Christianity, which as I said shares some of their mystical teachings." .jewfaqDOTorg/movementDOThtm
You have a good questioning mind, must, and you make me think and research and for that I thank you.
"You have a good questioning mind, must, and you make me think and research and for that I thank you." Well, thank you & you're welcome. I've enjoyed this exchange too.
"newton actually wrote documents", so we're told! you know, everything that isn't firsthand knowledge is hearsay, & maybe we can't trust everything we see too. this is extreme of course, but a kernel of truth is in it: we can't really believe that we've ever been told the truth because of the rulers of the world.
@muslUnbounded Quote: "His monograph Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, published in 1687, lays the foundations for most of classical mechanics. In this work, Newton described universal gravitation and the three laws of motion, which dominated the scientific view of the physical universe for the next three centuries. " He also received knighthood - Sir Isaac Newton.
I think it's safe to say he was a real historical character.
how about the contributions of Maimonides & other post-bible heroes of judaism? how about the fact that the temple culture has been replaced by a new form of judaism that has no focus on sacrifices? I am surprised that you think there is similarity between the old & modern judaism. you sound like you're in denial, because it is not a small matter to kill an animal for a sacrifice. I know, I once held down a lamb while my grandfather slit its throat.
@muslUnbounded I know, I once held down a lamb while my grandfather slit its throat."
YUK! It hits you like a ton of bricks, doesn't it? I always think in terms of this animal will only live once in all the time since the beginning and forevermore. To take it's life for a superstition is profoundly wrong. It is the animal that suffers death, not you.
I will check into differences between the "temple culture" and modern Judaism. The cessation of sacrifices was an improvement.
"YUK!" actually it was a sublime experience, because the dumb animal just lets it happen (if you maintain a strong grip). But killing a lamb isn't a religious experience, it is about eating, & pagans have given thanks to the "Animal Masters" for giving their bodies so they could eat. This was incorporated into judaism, so don't think judaism is so separate from paganism.
"The cessation of sacrifices was an improvement." Well, you have jesus to thank for that or the romans ;-)
@muslUnbounded - I doubt that the animal realized it was going to be killed. Among cattle being butchered, it isn't until blood is let that animals become aware of it and go into a frenzy. The difference is that HUMANS could not be killed, must.
I think we can thank the Romans there, must, and the diaspora.
@Matthew1944, " I doubt that the animal realized it was going to be killed". My grandfather periodically slaughtered a sheep and they never came back to the herd. I don't know what goes on in the minds of sheep but my grandfather didn't hide the sheepskin, and he roasted the animal out-of-doors. he didn't sneak the animal away either, i remember the entire flock staring as we carried off the chosen sheep.
humans ARE killed, by sin. the difference is WHO is killed, the logos or a common man.
@Matthew1944, nope about "logos". it is clearly a person in John 1, "with God and is/was God", "became flesh and dwelled among us". If the word used there "theos" indicates a person, it would have to be "theotikos" if it only meant a divine quality. the phrase literally states "a god was the logos". --and he was equal to "God" in Phil 2:6.
@muslUnbounded John was writing at the end of the first century, at least 70 years after the fact. He was a non-Jewish Christian convert, already steeped in the dogma.
and he was equal to "God" in Phil 2:6." --- Really? It seems that Jesus said "my father is greater than I".
@Matthew1944, the logos WAS equal to God, jesus was the product of the logos EMPTYING himself of his divinity and becoming a mere human.
Philippians 2 continues:
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of NO REPUTATION, and TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, and was made in the likeness of MEN:"
Therefore, when the logos became jesus, he was quite inferior to God.
I'm surprised that you wouldn't see such a simple thing.
@muslUnbounded The Christian Jesus of Pauline mythology - absolutely. In Jesus day and among his followers, he was believed to be a man. Philipians was written by Paul.
@muslUnbounded Our animals used to go ape-shit when dad shot one for butchering. They milled around in a panic, bawling all the while. I used to feel so sorry for them.
@Matthew1944, you are not the only one who felt sorry for butchered animals and that was the intention of the sacrifices, to beat into the thick skulls of Israelites that sin is a very serious matter. When jews "decide" to dismiss the temple sacrifices just because the temple is gone (there was no temple in moses' days, the sacrifices were performed in the tabernacle), it is a paramount act of open rebellion and disobedience against their god--gross apostasy and abandonment of their religion.
These theories are based on modern science, modern archeology and recent discoveries, increased access to historical documents versus the lore of primitive people.
Animal or human sacrifice figures significantly only in Christianity.
Modern Judaism is no different now than it was with exception of the animal sacrifice which is important only to Christians.
i was not limiting god. are we not discussing (mythological) supernatural events? i mean if we were talking about technologically advanced humans impregnating mary with semen kept in a testtube taken 1000 years earlier from David's testicles, would that be less likely than the events described in the OT like the creation of the universe in 6 days?
jesus was NOT a mangod. he had been god. he became flesh (human). he became god again. antichrists teach mangod.
@muslUnbounded I doubt very much that David saved his semen cryogenically. Semen from a 1000 year dead corpse won't do it. You don't REALLY believe the universe was created in 6 days, do you? Better re-read both of the creation stories then, because the creation orders contradict each other. Guess it depends on which story teller you believe.
Well then, if he became flesh, he lived and was human for a time. Human sacrifice was forbidden to Jews and Jesus was a Jew who would know that.
@Matthew1944, as an atheist, i certainly don't believe the universe was created in 6 days, but jews do, at least, some of them do. and judaism is not a monolith and it is nothing like it was in jesus's days nor in moses's days.
it's hard to know how to talk to you. you defend judaism and then strike it down in the next line.
i guess you acknowledge that judaism is a lie that pretends that a god intimately involved with jews exists?
@muslUnbounded Judaism is one belief system, Christianity is another. The only thing they have in common is a Jewish male called Jesus. To one system, he was a man. To the other, he was divine, either a half god or God himself.
The Jewish belief system is much more believable since it doesn't incorporate the supernatural while Christianity is based almost wholly on the supernatural. I just can't believe the story because it, to me, is just another pagan man-god story like that of dionysus.
@Matthew1944 2) I accept that in both camps there are those who believe each body of thought and certainly don't ridicule those beliefs. I do point out contradictions from historical writings or lack thereof, science and such.
@Matthew1944, neither judaism nor christianity are "one belief system", they are both umbrellas under which all sorts of ideas sit (and kill each other). authentic forms are rare and possibly extinct in the case of judaism since no prophet (other than christ) has risen with the authority to end the temple (or tabernacle) sacrifices.
"The Jewish belief system is much more believable since it doesn't incorporate the supernatural"
judaism is ENTIRELY based on the supernatural myth of yhwh!
@muslUnbounded - Jesus was not a prophet, must. The temple and alter stood on ground that is now occupied by a moslem mosque and has been for hundreds of years. No temple, no alter - no sacrifices since 70AD.
On that basis, then all religions are based on the supernatural which cannot be proven. You'l have to admit though, the idea of a god taking human form, dying and then rising again is pretty far out and separate from reality. Those elements strain credibility.
@Matthew1944, if someone divided a sea, piled up the waters of the Jordan, turn back the sun and sent hornets against your enemies, then i would have no problem believing that he could incarnate as a human and resurrect himself (by time-travel?) if he was unique and not part of an elohim ("they who are mighty") who would resurrect him. You cannot challenge the writings about what happened to jesus if you believe that the miracles of the OT actually happened.
@muslUnbounded The anti-christ is a Christian invention. "The word appears in the Johannine epistles for the first time, and does not recur (except in a citation of those epistles by Polycarp) until the extended discussion of the Antichrist doctrine by Irenaeus a hundred or so years later (haer. V.25)"
@muslUnbounded Did you know that the only thing that separates us from apes is one chromosome? We have one less and that is because two of our corresponding chromosomes fused to become one. What do you suppose would have happened with an "X with a piece broken off"? X cannot change to become a Y - They are separate and distinct and each has its specific function.
@Matthew1944, yes i am aware of the ape dna difference, though there's more difference than what you said. victims of down syndrome have the same extra chromosome, ape-style. i am not a geneticist, but i believe that i have heard the Y as an X with part broken off, of course, this may be wrong.
sacrifice is UNDENIABLY critical in authentic judaism. otherwise, millions, perhaps billions, of animals were sacrificed on a lark. modern judaism discounts it as a reaction to chriistianity.
@muslUnbounded 2) Additionally, it is not sufficient to be of the house of David to be the Messiah. One must also fulfill all of the major Messianic prophecies. Jesus fulfilled none of the major Messianic prophecies
@Matthew1944, jesus fulfilled none of the "messianic" prophecies that the jews wanted him to. they were trying to dictate to god what should be done, but god had a different purpose. he intended "proclaim liberty to the captives" to mean liberty from the oppression of sin and the law of sin and death.
the jews were only interested in political power (who cares which dictator you have to endure?), but god said, "yeah, i really don't care for your character, let's work on that first."
@muslUnbounded jesus fulfilled none of the "messianic" prophecies that the jews wanted him to. "
In order to establish himself as the true messiah, the FULLY HUMAN male from the house of David had to perform certain tasks DURING HIS LIFETIME. Jesus failed to do this. You're applying Christian thinking to an entirely different body of thought - doesn't work. Remember what I said - Jews think about THIS LIFE - Christians are more concerned about faith getting them into THE OTHER WORLD.
@muslUnbounded The Daniel prophecy is from the OT and has nothing to do with the man, Jesus. Tradition was created by the Catholic church just as they claim that Peter was the first pope even though he was a practicing Jew who believed Jesus to be a man, not a god. Paul wrote extensively about his travels and although he names, names - he never mentioned being in the company of Peter while courting pagan converts.
@muslUnbounded 2) In his lifetime, his followers at the Jerusalem temple were practicing Jews who believed he was a man, not a God. Keeping Jewish festivals does't make you a Jew anymore than if you live in a garage, it makes you a car. You keep forgetting that there were two kinds of Christians. The first were Jews who thought of Jesus as a man. After Paul, the second lot were mostly pagan converts who thought Jesus was a man-god.
@Matthew1944, i agree with you that there is a vast sea of pagan "christians", they aren't authentic. But not believing in the divinity of christ (before & after his purely human existence as jesus) doesn't make you pagan. you fail to understand that paganism's true definition is religion that the hebrew god doesn't institute. animal sacrifice isn't pagan even though pagans practice it, because moses instituted it in the tabernacle. similarly, God the Son belief is not pagan if "God" says so.
@muslUnbounded God the DIVINE son is not Jewish, so that leaves only the pagans, must. You keep bringing up "sacrifice" and I keep telling you. Sacrifice is central to Pauline Christianity and without that concept, there is no religion. Sacrifice isn't the issue with Jews to whom the eternal covenant between them and God is the central theme. If they remain faithful to the one undivided God and keep the commandments, he will protect them.
@Matthew1944, i keep bringing up sacrifice from the OT. i'm trying to debate this issue from the OT only.
judaism is not a monolith, there are lots of versions of it and there have been other versions of it in the past. when i say "judaism", it is as vague as saying "christianity". i usually intend to mean the true religion of moses and the true religion of christ.
however, if someone is talking about christ, they should steer clear of catholic mythology & talk about the NT writings ONLY.
@muslUnbounded - Yes, I know you do and I can't see why it is that important. ANIMAL sacrifices havent been done for almost 2000 years and are not central to Judaism.
What other versions of Judaism are there? The religion of Jesus the man was Judaism. That of "Christ" the divine is embedded in Pauline Christianity. It seems that somewhere in time, a man was made into a god and a new religion, quite different from the first, was born. The RCC is the root of today's protestantism.
@Matthew1944, modern judaism is not authentic judaism because they do not have sacrifices nor a temple. when moses brought out israel, they had the tabernacle and then they got a temple. They always had sacrifices while they had prophets. modern judaism is apostate from this concept just as catholicism is apostate from authentic christianity in every way. authentic christianity predates catholicism and its offshoots.
@muslUnbounded modern judaism is not authentic judaism because they do not have sacrifices nor a temple. "
Only from the Christian point of view because the concept of sacrifice is so important. Authentic Christianity as you call it would incorporate Ebionites and Nazarenes, not Pauline Christians. Both of the first two were declared to be heretics, hunted down and killed. I wouldn't call it "authentic", must - just two different birds.
@muslUnbounded Actually, it's John who agrees with Paul, since his writings came 40 years or so afterwards. The writer of the John gospel wasn't and eye witness.
pagan christianity arises because people like the samaritan simon magus used syncretism to increase their personal power and wealth, and especially because Rome learned that it could control & unify its empire by blending all religions into one national cult. Paul has nothing to do with these false christianities, though people have always liked to twist his words into all sorts of errors (2 Peter 3:16).
There were all flavors of "christians" not just 2, & jesus was not popular (John 6:66-67).
@muslUnbounded - Rome almost as a rule was quite content to take all new religions and incorporate them into the burgeoning stock it already had as long as its citizens pledged allegience to the Emperor. Paul was the first to make Jesus into a man-god and his story developed in Rome. Remember the incident at Antioch where he was accused of heresy and Romans helped him. We cannot know if Jesus was popular or not since there is no contemporary historical support for him outside of the bible.
@Matthew1944, usually, when the people who honor someone the most describe their leader as unpopular, we can take their word with a good deal of weight. so when john 6 says that he lost many of his followers BECAUSE OF HIS TEACHINGS, we should understand that the real jesus was not popular. people really only followed him because they wanted to see a miracle, they didn't have television back then.
@muslUnbounded Again, must, John - 60-80 years later, is relating hearsay. I'm more inclined to think there WERE no miracles, must. Even with the crucifixion - nothing contemporary was written. Philo had relatives in Jerusalem at that time and visited there. He was especially interested in the afterlife. He wrote nothing.
of course it is forbidden. you cannot pick a man & kill him and think your sins are forgiven. but if the god who created you gives up his divinity, becomes a human mortal and gives his life in your place, then it is valid (his life has value) & has NOTHING to do with RANDOM human sacrifices.
it is also in the same category as god forbidding murder while he sanctions genocide against canaanites--you don't argue with god.
@muslUnbounded Deuteronomy 12:30-31, God calls Human sacrifice something that He hates, and an abomination to Him, "for every abomination to the Eternal (God), which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
Remember? "God does not become a man and a man does not become a god"
I rather think that the genocide was much more THEIR idea, but making it something that came from God was a pretty handy tool.
@Matthew1944, i really wish you would grasp the difference between me choosing to sacrifice my children to some idol and the "actual creator" of the universe giving his life to pay the death penalty that human sins have incurred.
Even if i was sacrificing someone to yhwh, it would still be contrary to the law. but yhwh CAN sacrifice himself and even the jews can't tell him otherwise.
"Remember? "God does not become a man and a man does not become a god"" no, where is that from?
@muslUnbounded I can understand that you think there is some difference between an 'idol" and the "actual creator" but I see them as being essentially the same thing, except that you happen to believe in one and not the other. God hates human sacrifice -why would you sacrifice a human to him?
--
You're saying the God sacrificed himself to himself? Better read more of the bible, must.
i find examples of god and man being interchangeable, such as when abraham entertains the "men", when jacob wrestles with "god" at peniel. but that's unimportant.
the purpose of an animal sacrifice is to remind one that sin costs, the purpose of god's sacrifice is to pay the penalty for sin once and for all. the biblical (not modern jewish) day of atonement ritual involves 2 goats, so without sacrifice there is no atonement.
@muslUnbounded the purpose of god's sacrifice is to pay the penalty for sin once and for all. "
That is pagan. Psalm 49:7-9 No man can Redeem the life of another or to give to God a ransom for him
the ransom for a life is costly.
The significance of the day of atonement has alreacy been explained, I believe. It hasn't involved animals for 2000 years. The atonement is to be carried out in THIS LIFE to make wrongs right again, by apologies and restitution to those harmed.
@Matthew1944, if christ had been yhwh, his life was unique and his sacrifice was nothing like a pagan human sacrifice.
Psalm 49:7-9 is talking about rich people buying their brothers.
As for the Day of Atonement, no way! You act like the jews can make up practices other than what Moses claimed yhwh told him to institute! Sorry buddy, Elijah contended with such jews & he killed their "prophets". modern judaism is apostate & heavily influenced by reactions against all forms of christianity.
@muslUnbounded You likely won't believe it, but Christianity isn't all that important to Jews. They keep a low profile and try to keep their own national identity. Through the last 2000 years Christianity hasn't been kind to them to say the least starting in the early centuries.
Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims.
@muslUnbounded 2) In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."
The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; ; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies
@Matthew1944, look, you can list all the gory stories you like, those people claimed to be christian but obviously weren't followers of christ who taught people to turn the other cheek and bless those who curse you. neither is rome christian, nor any church that doesn't DO what christ taught. in fact, the christian bible teaches that when christ returns there will only have been 144,000 christians (including Abraham, et al). It was not meant to be a world religion until the kingdom starts.
@muslUnbounded You claim to be an atheist but you talk like a Christian. " Tertullian notes that a Christian sect of his day "does not receive certain Scriptures; and whichever of them it does receive, it perverts by means of additions and diminutions, for the accomplishment of it[s] own purpose;" "Eighty-two percent of the words ascribed to Jesus in the gospels were not actually spoken by him." (The Five Gospels, p. 3)
@Matthew1944, i'm a former christian, but all religion is a con game.
"It's hard to judge exactly WHAT Jesus taught." you can say that about Newton too because we don't have video evidence of him speaking & perhaps he had ghost-writers or sources he stole from. Look at the controversy regarding who Shakespeare was.
Tertullian--Have you ever read Tacitus's list of possible origins of the jewish people?--it shows the total ignorance of Roman "geniuses" (the Histories Book V).
@muslUnbounded - Newton actually wrote documents and there is historical support in terms of other contemporary documentation - Jesus wrote nothing and there is no contemporary historical support for him.
Tacitus wrote at the end of the first century. He might have been learned for his day but the average fifth grader now knows more than he did.
@muslUnbounded i'm a former christian, but all religion is a con game"
Me too, and I agree. You asked me why I support Judaism at time and sometimes I decry it. It's because I'm neither Christian nor Jew and the study in the striking difference in the two and the turmoil because of lack of understanding of these difference is interesting to me. I prefer to believe in a creative force/power - a creator and fully realize there is no support for that either.
can anyone say plagiary?
gr8vibes2 2 weeks ago
What are those bird people?
IAMPontiusPilate 1 month ago
besides the bible cannot be scientifically proven wrong.
ihatechildabusers1 3 months ago
@ihatechildabusers1 Yes, it can, the world is not flat, there are no pillars that hold it up.
changingmyself 3 months ago
there are everyday people who claim they are true christians and they are not. read revelations it says all. many will be decieved! and you are probably among the many who are or will be. all i know is that i have my own straightening up to do. not everyone is perfect! thats why you can ask for forgiveness. but not everyday for the same thing.
ihatechildabusers1 3 months ago
God isnt going to make everything perfect for everyone here on earth. if that was the case then there would be no heaven, we would already be there, here on earth. not so. God also punishes people who deserve it. it has happened to me. there is a such thing as devil worshippers who have there own churches and such. what do you think God should change them too???????? he tests people to see their faith and how strong it is. and yes everyday christains can fail.
ihatechildabusers1 3 months ago
my mother was diagnosed with throat cancer last year. after some odd radiation treatments (ill say 60) and almost losing her voice, which is still not right and probably never will be, SHE SURVIVED! through prayer from the church, family, and friends along with herself praying. besides from the looks of it i am talking to someone who wants to act stupid. if you have a question look it up in the bible, because oblviously im not any help to you.
ihatechildabusers1 3 months ago
@ihatechildabusers1 So what about the atheists that survive cancer too even though they did not pray? What about all the other religions that pray for healing to their gods and their people get healed of cancer?
I am not "acting stupid" that is a cop out, I am asking you legitimate questions. Can your faith pass the test?
changingmyself 3 months ago
God exists. He has a name. In His name flow miracles.
71jav 3 months ago 2
Jesus was a JEW. Christianity is an OUTGROWTH of judaism, STOP FOLLOWING and WAKE UP from the slavery that is "god". By believing in this MYTHOLOGY you're giving up your basic rights to THINK freely and LIVE as one should, not through restrainment of religion. Does it make sense to help those who killed you? NO, it's a CON to get you to LOVE jews for killing YOUR savior! STOP BEING STUPID!
aztecterrorism 4 months ago
@aztecterrorism God and religion have nothing to do with one another.
DeaflyBlind 4 months ago
once a while ago i had this unimaginable pain in my right breast and along with it was a huge lump on the side. i suddenly got scared and went in for a mammogram. turns out their is nothing wrong. well days went by and it never got any better. then one night i was in so much pain i began to pray to God to take my pain away and during the prayer i could feel tingling in my right breast on the lump. just minutes after i had finished praying i no longer had any pain. Tell me that isnt God working.
ihatechildabusers1 4 months ago
@ihatechildabusers1 Then why doesn't your god heal amputee's?
changingmyself 3 months ago
@changingmyself
Please clarify. Is there not any evidence whatsoever of amputee healings?
If not, there are allegedly all types of healings done but somehow amputee healing is exempt?
That would be damning information.
03030303 3 months ago
@03030303 No, there is no evidence at all of god healing amputee's. That means that what ever is amputated, whether it be arm or leg, grows back and there is evidence of it growing back with your gods ulitmate healing.
changingmyself 3 months ago
@changingmyself
Then anyone who does not absorb this truth is in denial. And denial is the basis of human psychosis. I guess it all makes sense now.
I have always felt more comfortable around people in a liquor store than in a church. In a liquor store there is no pretentiousness or judging. No one gives a damn about your appearance.
No scotch drinker spouts off to a vodka drinker that his liquor is the one true beverage.
I also know AA members who consider each other true brothers.
03030303 3 months ago
@03030303 I can understand that totally. :)
changingmyself 3 months ago
@changingmyself you are going to believe whatever you want too regardless of what i say, but if you dont have complete faith in him or believe that he is real or that he died on the cross for you then well i dont know what to tell you. i was brought up believing in God, and this isnt the only prayer he has answered nor the only miracle he has made for me. i thought that pin pointing this moment would make some of you see that he does work through prayer. believe with your whole heart and soul.
ihatechildabusers1 3 months ago
@ihatechildabusers1 You didn't answer the question. WHY doesn't your god heal amputee's?
Are you telling me that amputee's do not have enough faith?
changingmyself 3 months ago
@changingmyself probably because they are like you. they probably dont believe. you are questioning Gods work. why this is or why this isnt. i only know so much. if God healed an amputee that would mean that his limbs would grow back. well what was the reason for the amputation? if it was because of cancer or an accident for example, do they not have their life? instead of noticing the negative here look at the positive that so many dont seem to see.
ihatechildabusers1 3 months ago
@ihatechildabusers1 So your god cannot heal cancer either?
What exactly does your god heal?
changingmyself 3 months ago
@ihatechildabusers1 Don't waste your time with "changingmyself", she's a bigoted troll, yeah? "Why God doesn't heal amputees" is the lamest atheist querry ever devised. Pain and suffering exist on this planet to give OTHERS the chance to excell. We are at our best when things are at their worst. (easily answered). Ask her about her beliefs in ancient Egyptian giants and changling lizard aliens, that'll shut her up. Just advisin' ;)
Innuendoh 3 months ago
@changingmyself you might as well ask me why God doesnt heal the gay. what is your thoughts on gay people? it is an abomination to God for a man to lay with a man or a women with a women, here is where you can find it in the bible, Leviticus chapter 18 verse 22. have you ever looked or read the bible? also in Luke chapter 11 verse 9, it talks about prayer. try reading the bible you will find interesting things. if you dont seek or ask it will not be given.
ihatechildabusers1 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ihatechildabusers1 When you answer my questions, I will answer yours.
changingmyself 3 months ago
@changingmyself Typical TROLL response, yes? What is your take on diabolic possession/oppression, Oh great sage of the interent? Can't answer? That's what I thought. Just illuminatin' ;)
Innuendoh 3 months ago
@ihatechildabusers1
God does work. Its just that religions want to make divinity exclusive to their sets of doctrine.
Notice however, that YOU had to act. YOU went to the doctor. YOU prayed.
Religion is set up to denial your OWN divinity. You can't be controlled if you knew that YOU are a part of the Universal divine, now can you? No
You must obey a set of dictated guidelines.
03030303 3 months ago
+1
HistoryIsALie 4 months ago
his name is brian leonard golightly marshall he has been reincarnated on this earth in 1944... the earth is his temple and his creation... all you christians out there, you are following a lie... he won't come back in the clouds, he is already here...
2424yahweh 4 months ago
I'm14 year old girl and I find religion ridiculous. It's just another way to scare people. Seriously? People live their lives trying everyday not to go to hell. WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS, Why the hell are their sins , and we were created to do those things that are sins. Lmao..
MusikkIzMiLiffee 5 months ago
@MusikkIzMiLiffee its all to keep you doing good..
detacher0123 5 months ago
@detacher0123 Yeah but you still have to live your life constantly thinking of every thing you do and making sure you do everything perfectly and up to gods standards. Why were we created with the capability to do the things that are concidered wrong. I find it kind of ridiculous still.
MusikkIzMiLiffee 5 months ago
@MusikkIzMiLiffee not so tough on your self k ,.. its a faith thing ,. if you need think his name , is a chrisis ,. and see. im a down to eart person k ,. no kook,.
detacher0123 5 months ago
Jesus is not real. A man-made character is all he is. The SUN is the real Jesus. Jesus is a copy-cat messiah. The holy word that the Christians rely on is a complete lie! There is no truth in the mess. Religion....PERIOD....was started in the Motherland. The Christian idealogy is stolen out the caves and pyramids that are located in Luxor, Egypt. The writing is on the walls.
montaquemcfadden1978 5 months ago 2
@montaquemcfadden1978 YES I agree , COMPLETELY. Why believe in something not proven to be true?
MusikkIzMiLiffee 5 months ago
@montaquemcfadden1978 yea how ever we dont have to worry about satans' spelle,.. ie followers ,.. or going to hell,..etc , he died for all our sins,..
detacher0123 5 months ago
@detacher0123 Oh so in some magical way this magic man from the past knew what we were going to do in the future so he died. I don't believe in people with higher power above us. We are all equal.. I don't really feel the need to believe in it but at the same time I do.. but really it's not my problem. Believe in whatever you want and have disbelief in whatever you want.. everyone has their own rights to believe in what they want to I'm in no place to judge you for that,I find it ridiculous.
MusikkIzMiLiffee 5 months ago
@detacher0123 Since he died to take care o' our sins....why isn't EVERYONE going to heaven?
montaquemcfadden1978 5 months ago 2
The white man and his evil religion is the reason why the world is messed up today. Lies
seems to be all they have ever known
KhmerBayon 6 months ago
@KhmerBayon search for: Zeitgeist, History Rewritten - Chris White
search for: The 'Real' Zeitgeist Challenge" DEBUNKED
search for: Zeitgeist addendum is NWO propaganda
search for : 2012 Enlightenment & the World Genocide
search for: Satanic Priest Explains Pop Culture Brainwash
search for: They are Misleading You
search for: Mystery Schools - The Externalization of the Hierarchy
search for : Michael Tsarion is Wrong a Debunkumentary
search for : Jordan Maxwell Debunked
notjam3 6 months ago
Most history is fiction, because it is always written by the victor. In the dark age west the victor was Christianity. The victor of course always put themselves in the best possible light. The history we've been fed is complete utter BS.
Valthepixie 6 months ago
Every Jesuit is outwardly a monk, inwardly a devil, and altogether a serpent.--I. Paisley.
Islandretreat 6 months ago
The Truth is out there, and we who choose to don't believe in a God are the ones who will find it. Thank you for the good video.
themakerofmine 6 months ago
Must - I wrote: " If you REALLY look at it, it's a crosscut of religions and the bottom line is that it is fundamentalist belief in all religions that causes the problem, "
This is a very good article about just that very thing: .alternetDOTorg/story/151505
Matthew1944 6 months ago
If ever there was an argument for abortion, it would be Paul who started the malignant pagan story - a Herodian (a wannabe Jew), Ebionites say a Greek convert to got the hots for the priest's daughter and converted, a Roman citizen. She turned him down and he turned on the Jews.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
udaism is a monotheistic faith, meaning that Jews believe there is only One God. Often this God is beyond our ability to comprehend, but God is nevertheless present in our everyday lives. How individual Jews choose to understand this manifestation of the divine varies. Some connect with God through prayer, others see the divine in the majesty of the natural world, others may not think about God on a daily basis. Each individual's relationship with God is unique and personal.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, i find it very difficult to believe that Moses was a true monotheist because he wrote about the elohim ("they who are mighty"). They're the ones who said "Let US make man in OUR image". The idea of the oneness of "God" in the bible is a reference to their unity of purpose and harmony, whereas foreign gods were often at war or conflict with each other. That said, there is only a reference to two divine beings in the NT, the "Logos" (Word) and "God", not a pagan trinity.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Now this is a problem of translation between Jews and non-Jews - a language idiom. The word Elohim possesses a plural intensive syntax and is singular in meaning. Hebrew word chayim, meaning "life." Notice that this word contains the identical plural suffix "im," as in Elohim, yet it repeatedly means "life", in the singular, throughout the Bible. Example: And the LORD said unto Moses, "See, I have made thee a god (Elohim) to Pharaoh.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, and what about, "Let US make man in OUR image"? Was god speaking to himself like a crazy guy? or was he communicating with his logos?
so i looked up "god" in the online Strong's Concordance & it says "elohim" has two tenses (plural & plural intensive), so this is not conclusive.
Either way, in Genesis god makes everything in dualism--night & day, dry land & sea, heaven & earth, male & female, sun & moon. Logically, the universe would reflect the qualities of its two creators.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Strongs is written from a Christian perspective. If you want to know what it REALLY means - ask a rabbi. He will use the ORIGINAL book and will be glad to explain his book to you. KJV was translated in the middle ages. During that period of time, grandiose speech was commonplace. Queen Victoria was know for the comment "We are not amused". Does this mean she had a split personality?
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, strong's concordance is a lexicon not a commentary like the talmud. jews have also been influenced by other cultures for millenia, in fact, genesis may well be nothing more than a ripoff of the babylonian genesis stories that they stole while in babylonian captivity.
there is nothing special about jews or the bible. i wouldn't be surprised that the romans adopted the bible because they wanted to conceal really valuable information that other cultures had.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded there is nothing special about jews or the bible"
I agree with you on that one. The fact is that very early in its history, Christianity made a final split from Judaism and has become a completely different religion, complete with the edited text they created. It really isn't a matter of who is right and who is wrong. They are just diametrically opposed.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded What two creators? Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.
Hosea 13:4 Yet I am YHWH your G-d from the land of Egypt; and you shall know no god but me, and besides me there is no Savior.
DEU 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
jesus set the example of a pacifist for humans, because humans are not qualified to "make war in righteousness" and spiritual development requires humbling yourself and following the difficult path to peace. But when he returns (according to the bible) he will rule with a rod of iron, which I'm happy i won't have to endure.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded That is the story the NT tells, certainly. The Romans stepped in only in cases of sedition and treason. Jesus wasn't a Roman so the only charge could be sedition. Crucifixion was the method used for a crime against Rome. That leaves me thinking that there is more to the story than we have been told. Also, Jesus said,
“But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.” (Luke 22:36 NASB)
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, anyway, paul doesn't destroy judaism, the NT provides more color to the OT as the passover, days of unleavened bread, feast of firstfruits, etc acquire far more spiritual meaning than what the jews had. paul teaches that gentiles become jews when they become christians. it's the romans who abandon original christianity and gentilize it into catholicism--abandoning almost every shred of christianity in the process to keep their own pagan traditions.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Paul came along 30 years after Jesus died, never knew him and didn't study under the apostles. He made his story up on the fly and after being accused of preaching heresy at Antioch and being saved by Roman soldiers, returned to Rome where his story, with the man-god and virgin birth, was already familiar to pagans who converted readily. Gentiles don't become Jews when they become Christians - they remain Christians. Original Christianity under Jesus was Judaism - no man god.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, what source are you getting "Paul came along 30 years after Jesus died" from? Because I don't think anybody believes that. Paul martyred Stephen shortly after Jesus' death and was converted shortly after that, 31-36CE according to Wikipedia.
jesus was a jew & his followers become part of him. gentile christians are grafted into the israelite "olive tree" through jesus. real christians kept the jewish festivals and commandments but understood their fuller meaning.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Jesus began preaching in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius which was 29AD. His ministry lasted about a year before he was executed. Paul's first writings came in about 59AD.
Gentile Christians weren't grafted into anything. Jesus stated that he was sent only to the Jews and directed his apostles to avoid gentile towns.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, yes, jesus was sent only to israel, but in Matt 28:19 he tells his disciples to go everywhere. In fact, if he had gone to the world then there wouldn't have been an excuse to include gentiles (rom 11:25).
What's your interpretation of Isaiah 11:10?
jesus is traditionally acknowledged as having preached for 3.5 years, not 1 year, being "cut off in the midst of the week" (Dan 9:26). This line also shows the messiah being killed by the enemy, not triumphing as the jews expect.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Exactly - the world - Everywhere there were Jews from the diaspora who were losing their faith and becoming Hellinized, becoming more pagan. You must remember that after their dispersal from various captivities, there were more living outside of Israel than within it. This is also why the Talmud was written - Because the rabbis weren't able to guide their people in the biblical interpretations and the Talmud was the substitute.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, one must always be careful when religious people give their interpretations, the talmud is no exception. in pagan versions of "christianity", the pagan immortal soul concept is a basic belief, so (Luke 13:3)
"except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" is something they gloss over (& John 3:16). the NT contains an account of various "apostate" forms of judaism rife in jesus' day including sadduccees and pharisees, and we have also heard of essenes. there were many others.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded John isn't the apostle John. He was a very well educated non-Jew, a Christian convert who was documenting hearsay 60-80 years aftr the fact. He is passing along what is already believed by Pauline Christians.
There were four major groups as documented by Josephus at the end of the first century: Pharisees, Saducees, Samaritans and Essenes. The Essenes numbered no more than 4000. Neither Jewish Christianity nor Pauline Christianity is mentioned.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded The numbering and content in the Tanakh has been changed in the OT so I'm assuming you mean: Isaiah 11:1-2 The BRANCH is defined as a root out of Jesse and as the Messiah, the anointed one. Missionaries conclude, therefore, that Jesus "must" be the Messiah.
The Reply is that, yes, the Messiah will be of the house of David. But, as I pointed out before, Joseph was said not Jesus' father, so Jesus is not of the house of David.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, i was actually asking about the "ensign to the gentiles" reference.
but jesus gets his human dna from mary who is a descendant of david (unless of course, god injected actual david dna into the embryonic jesus! we can get imaginative about what an "omnipotent being" can do). 2 different genealogies are presented in Luke 3 and Matt 1, one for each "parent". the issue is not discussed in the NT and can lead to interesting speculations.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded A Jewish mother cannot pass on lineage, must. If Jesus got his DNA from his mother, he would be a clone and would have been a female only. Magic doesn't cover it. Neither geneology given in the bible applies. Jesus could only get his lineage from his natural father. The first chapters of Matthew are later Christian add-ons. Luke admits to not being an eye witness but in fact, is passing on stories already in circulation.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944,
"A Jewish mother cannot pass on lineage"
if mary was davidic, then jesus was davidic.
the bible doesn't discuss what happened with jesus' dna. 2 speculations:
1) jesus was a "clone" of mary. females have two X chromosomes, males are XY. a Y is an X with a piece broken off. so jesus could have received her dna with an X broken.
2) jesus received actual david DNA, mary was just a vessel.
if god incarnated, he did whatever he wanted & didn't explain it to a pre-dna culture.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Mary was Jewish and could only give Jesus his Jewishness. She didn't come from the right line, must. Her lineage went back through Nathan to David. The lineage of the messiah was to come down through Solomon. I'm afraid that's not how genetics work, must. She could only pass on female chromosomes (matrilineal DNA). The male dictates the sex. There was no male involved, right?
Again, magic doesn't cover it.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, the genealogy presented in Matt 1 is through solomon.
as for jesus's dna, it is not discussed in the bible. the questions can ONLY be asked today and explained today in light of dna research. if jesus actually was miraculously conceived, then god did whatever he chose, including using dna directly from david's 1000 year dead corpse.
if you don't think there could be "magic", then you should also understand that god also didn't part the yam suph because he doesn't have "magic".
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded The geneology in Matt is for Joseph. Joseph was not Jesus natural father. A Jewish father cannot pass lineage to an adopted son. Jesus would have been considered to be a "mamser".
..............
DNA from a 1000 year corpse? That's pushing it, must. Scientists tried to impregnate an elephant with mastodon sperm taken after it was recovered and thawed - could not be done.
The process you're describing is pure paganism. God plus virgin = man-god who sacrifices himself.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944 2) Just to add: Joseph's line was through Jocaniah who was disinherited and could never claim the throne of David.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944 3) The first two chapters of Matthew and the first three chapters of Luke were added in the second century by Hellenizers who would accept only a divinely born savior-god like those of the pagan mystery-cults. . . ." (Dr. Martin A. Larson, The Essene-Christian Faith, p. 175)
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, many "dr's" have theories. they can put forth all the theories they need to but theologically speaking, if christ was a mere human with no previous existence as yhwh and had sacrificed himself, his death would at most pay for one man's sins, his own. all the chapters related to sacrifice would therefore also have to have been added with the ones you mention.
modern judaism is very different from moses' religion, so yes, it can be a reaction to "christianity".
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Theologically speaking, Christ the divine is a Christian invention.
How is modern Judaism different? Unless the idea of discontinued animal sacrifices is what is making the difference to you. Rules are the same. Laws are the same. The book hasn't changed in 2500 years. The Jews actually don't push their information but are willing to share if one is interested. Once you know what they have to say and you have researched history, the belief in Christianity is gone.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, it doesn't matter if the book stays the same for 2500 years. judaism is a pale reflection of the book with different things being important in different eras. pompey's troops were helped by the fact that aristobulus prohibited fighting them on the sabbath, but israel fought on yom kippur in 1973. Do you have sadduccees or essenes anymore?--did the ancients have haskalah, reform, or neologs? judaism is a product of its times.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Sadducees and Essenes were killed off long ago and not by fellow Jews. Yes Israel fought BUT you don't realize that life and death situations trump the sabbath. For instance if a person is dying, there is no problem with a life saving procedure on a sabbath. The "ancients" had different shades of intensity within Judaism then, just as they do now - from the liberal to the ultra-orthodox. Same as Christianity has its liberal Christians vs fundamentalists.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944,
"Sadducees and Essenes were killed off long ago and not by fellow Jews"
funny how Rome left the pharisees around, they must have been good friends and allies.
"Jesus was not a prophet"
Matt 24 is a long prophecy (1) of jesus's and as someone who talked for god (2), there's 2 reasons to call him a prophet, especially if you consider the dog mohammed a prophet.
"No temple, no alter - no sacrifices"
sacrifices are performed throughout Genesis without a temple.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded The Christian Christ is the product of mythology and legend, must. I don't consider Mohammed a prophet either. "Prophets" are a product of an overactive imagination and credulous thinking.
You forget that the first five books of the Jewish text were purportedly written by Moses, probably another myth. Genesis, exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy - a mixture of ancient laws and myth.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944,
"The Christian Christ is the product of mythology & legend"
This is something that requires far better scholars than we have studying the issue, because while it is true IF RCism is christianity, the RCs have NOTHING to do with the bible. the jesus of the NT is in NO WAY antinomian (neither is Paul (Rom 3:31)), he NEVER treats Mary as an incarnation of Isis, he never sanctions sunday, pagan festivals, birthdays, rosaries, sacred hearts, & especially NO political involvement.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded The RCs glommed onto the idea of the god-man and built a corporation around him, complete with confession, limbo, baptism to save souls, praying to Mary and the numerous saints. Did you know there is even a saint for sore throats? The mumbo jumbo was created to bypass rational thinking on the part of the sheep, to keep control and keep the money coming in. Of course, no English bible was allowed and Latin was used. BUT without them, there would be no protestant Christianity.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944, "The RCs glommed..."
TRUE! but the only thing they took from christianity was the bible, and they falsely re-interpreted EVERYTHING in it (that's why people say they don't understand the bible). the logos was god, then man (jesus), then god again--never god-man. 1 John 4:3
"And every spirit that confesseth NOT that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist". Flesh = purely human. John saw lots of antichrists in his time.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded John INVENTED the antichrist, must. The term "antichrist" is found only in I and II John.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944, the term antichrist means opposed to christ (and his doctrines), the false belief that there was one antichrist is based on the error of calling the beast "Antichrist"--while he is anti-christ, lots of people are, especially the false prophet (of Revelation). there is no special quality about John being the "official mentioner" because you can see from 2 Thess 2:3-4 that Paul referred to him as the "son of perdition" and the understanding circulated around the mediterranean world.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded " that Paul referred to him as the "son of perdition" and the understanding circulated around the mediterranean world."
Paul was long gone by the time Revelation or the gospel of John were written. Pauls initial writings date to 59AD and it wasn't much longer afterward that he returned to Rome. The gospel of John was written 90-110 AD so Paul could not have been referring to John or anti-christ since John hadn't invented that term in Paul's time.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944, i don't take very seriously the dates attributed to the various books. You know how they have to work, don't you? if a book was written in 1400 & copied in 1500 & 1600, but only the 1600 edition can be found then the only antiquity they can attribute is 1600.
these are christian documents, & the christians were wiped out VERY early on (in the 1st century), so they are likely older than "accepted" dates. And John 21:23 is an indication that John would live a long life.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded The John who wrote the gospel isn't John the apostle, must.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded 3)A stormy protest ensued in which Paul feared for his life and was rescued by the Roman police, to whom he declared for his protection that he was a Roman citizen. This surprising announcement was the end of Paul's association with the Jerusalem Church, "
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded - but the only thing they took from christianity was the bible, and they falsely re-interpreted EVERYTHING"
And that is the bible we are left with today. In the oldest known Bible to date, the "Sinai Bible" housed in the British Museum , there is a staggering 14,800 differences from today's Bible.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944,
i'm not familiar with these alleged 14,800 differences (lol, is 1 of them that most bibles today are written in english?), but the "magic" of RCism is that you can steal the bible documents which express a totally alien religion to their's & people will swallow the lie that everything in the bible actually means the opposite of what it says. they don't need to change it, they just claim to be the ONLY ones who can "interpret" it, & lie about what it says.
can you footnote that?
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded Check out Gonz on "Pope Benedictus declares Catholic holy war" - classic example of an ignorant believer.
They may CLAIM to be the only ones able to interpret it but the bible itself says that it is written that even the simple can understand it.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944,
"They may CLAIM to be the only ones able to interpret it but the bible itself says that it is written that even the simple can understand it."
ah, you've restored my higher expectations of you!
Matt 11:25 "At that time Jesus said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."
the "learned" always try to read things into scripture that aren't there & lead themselves astray.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded - If you go to Codex Sinaiticus bible differences, I think it's there. I didn't mark it and don't remember the site.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
where does the idea that protestants have validity come from? sure, they are an improvement over RCism, but they are not real christians either. authentic christianity can always arise out of reading the bible, but not if you put the pagan doctrines on it.
RCs & prots both re-work John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish [FRY IN HELL]". They strike out "perish" because they claim we are immortal "souls".
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded None of them excel over the other in validity. I can't say that protestantism is an improvement either.
None of them help anyone unless there is that bottom line - conversion. I don't think there IS an "authentic Christianity". It started with one form, changed into another quite different from the first, then changed again. If you sit back and look at them from the outside, they all look like ridiculous fairytales - akin to studying how Greek mythology was adopted by Romans.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944, "I can't say that protestantism is an improvement either."
RCism is grossly blasphemous against god. It's popes make their peons worship them as the "Holy Father", a title that can ONLY belong to God the Father. popes plummetted the world into the dark ages and ignorance, killing millions in persecutions and inquisitions and because of their bans on hygiene. The RC countries were far more backward than protestant nations. The USA would have been another Mexico if it was RC.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded The USA would have been another Mexico if it was RC."
True - the ten countries in the world that lead in crime and murder are, with the exception of one I think, all Catholic. Highly secular countries do better by far. Of the ten top countries in the world to live in, there is only one which is Catholic and that is Ireland.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944, if the USA had been RC it would have been another Mexico because RCism exists solely to reinforce the old fascist roman order where a dictator (emperor) protects & glorifies the religion bureaucrat (pope) who sanctifies the dictator. That's the beast & false prophet system of Revelation. There's a class of ubermenschen ("nobility") & the rest are serfs. Wealth & power for few, poverty & misery for the vast majority. The USA is on that path & its own RCs will accelerate it.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago 2
@muslUnbounded Rapidly you forgot to say. The time has already past. It has happened this Decade this Century
msam1970 6 months ago
@msam1970, you might be right, Obama had to "meet" with the cult of superstition's local inquisitors when he was trying to make a deal with the republicans on keeping the government going back in April. The catholics are deadset against caring about living people (and organizations like Planned Parenthood, who actually do care about people) to pretend that they care about embryos, most of which are naturally aborted by nature/"God".
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded "The Pharisaic school of thought is the only one that survived the destruction of the Temple. The Zealots were killed off during the war with Rome. The Sadducees could not survive without the Temple, which was the center of their religion. The Essenes, who were never very numerous, were apparently killed off by the Romans (they were easily recognizable in their isolated communities).
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded 2) Some think that the Essenes may have been absorbed into Christianity, which as I said shares some of their mystical teachings." .jewfaqDOTorg/movementDOThtm
You have a good questioning mind, must, and you make me think and research and for that I thank you.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944,
"You have a good questioning mind, must, and you make me think and research and for that I thank you." Well, thank you & you're welcome. I've enjoyed this exchange too.
"newton actually wrote documents", so we're told! you know, everything that isn't firsthand knowledge is hearsay, & maybe we can't trust everything we see too. this is extreme of course, but a kernel of truth is in it: we can't really believe that we've ever been told the truth because of the rulers of the world.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded Quote: "His monograph Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, published in 1687, lays the foundations for most of classical mechanics. In this work, Newton described universal gravitation and the three laws of motion, which dominated the scientific view of the physical universe for the next three centuries. " He also received knighthood - Sir Isaac Newton.
I think it's safe to say he was a real historical character.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded , it doesn't matter if the book stays the same for 2500 years. judaism is a pale reflection of the book "
Do you have supportive evidence that points to these difference?
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944,
"supportive evidence"
how about the contributions of Maimonides & other post-bible heroes of judaism? how about the fact that the temple culture has been replaced by a new form of judaism that has no focus on sacrifices? I am surprised that you think there is similarity between the old & modern judaism. you sound like you're in denial, because it is not a small matter to kill an animal for a sacrifice. I know, I once held down a lamb while my grandfather slit its throat.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded I know, I once held down a lamb while my grandfather slit its throat."
YUK! It hits you like a ton of bricks, doesn't it? I always think in terms of this animal will only live once in all the time since the beginning and forevermore. To take it's life for a superstition is profoundly wrong. It is the animal that suffers death, not you.
I will check into differences between the "temple culture" and modern Judaism. The cessation of sacrifices was an improvement.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944,
"YUK!" actually it was a sublime experience, because the dumb animal just lets it happen (if you maintain a strong grip). But killing a lamb isn't a religious experience, it is about eating, & pagans have given thanks to the "Animal Masters" for giving their bodies so they could eat. This was incorporated into judaism, so don't think judaism is so separate from paganism.
"The cessation of sacrifices was an improvement." Well, you have jesus to thank for that or the romans ;-)
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded - I doubt that the animal realized it was going to be killed. Among cattle being butchered, it isn't until blood is let that animals become aware of it and go into a frenzy. The difference is that HUMANS could not be killed, must.
I think we can thank the Romans there, must, and the diaspora.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944, " I doubt that the animal realized it was going to be killed". My grandfather periodically slaughtered a sheep and they never came back to the herd. I don't know what goes on in the minds of sheep but my grandfather didn't hide the sheepskin, and he roasted the animal out-of-doors. he didn't sneak the animal away either, i remember the entire flock staring as we carried off the chosen sheep.
humans ARE killed, by sin. the difference is WHO is killed, the logos or a common man.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded Logos means the actions and words of God - it isn't a person. Killing a man-god as a sacrifice isn't Jewish.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944, nope about "logos". it is clearly a person in John 1, "with God and is/was God", "became flesh and dwelled among us". If the word used there "theos" indicates a person, it would have to be "theotikos" if it only meant a divine quality. the phrase literally states "a god was the logos". --and he was equal to "God" in Phil 2:6.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded John was writing at the end of the first century, at least 70 years after the fact. He was a non-Jewish Christian convert, already steeped in the dogma.
and he was equal to "God" in Phil 2:6." --- Really? It seems that Jesus said "my father is greater than I".
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944, the logos WAS equal to God, jesus was the product of the logos EMPTYING himself of his divinity and becoming a mere human.
Philippians 2 continues:
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of NO REPUTATION, and TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, and was made in the likeness of MEN:"
Therefore, when the logos became jesus, he was quite inferior to God.
I'm surprised that you wouldn't see such a simple thing.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded The Christian Jesus of Pauline mythology - absolutely. In Jesus day and among his followers, he was believed to be a man. Philipians was written by Paul.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded Our animals used to go ape-shit when dad shot one for butchering. They milled around in a panic, bawling all the while. I used to feel so sorry for them.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@Matthew1944, you are not the only one who felt sorry for butchered animals and that was the intention of the sacrifices, to beat into the thick skulls of Israelites that sin is a very serious matter. When jews "decide" to dismiss the temple sacrifices just because the temple is gone (there was no temple in moses' days, the sacrifices were performed in the tabernacle), it is a paramount act of open rebellion and disobedience against their god--gross apostasy and abandonment of their religion.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded When jews "decide" to dismiss the temple sacrifices just because the temple is gone"
Check out Leviticus for specific directions for sacrifice. You really hung up on sacrifice and murder, aren't you?
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded many "dr's" have theories"
These theories are based on modern science, modern archeology and recent discoveries, increased access to historical documents versus the lore of primitive people.
Animal or human sacrifice figures significantly only in Christianity.
Modern Judaism is no different now than it was with exception of the animal sacrifice which is important only to Christians.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, "1000 year corpse"
i was not limiting god. are we not discussing (mythological) supernatural events? i mean if we were talking about technologically advanced humans impregnating mary with semen kept in a testtube taken 1000 years earlier from David's testicles, would that be less likely than the events described in the OT like the creation of the universe in 6 days?
jesus was NOT a mangod. he had been god. he became flesh (human). he became god again. antichrists teach mangod.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded I doubt very much that David saved his semen cryogenically. Semen from a 1000 year dead corpse won't do it. You don't REALLY believe the universe was created in 6 days, do you? Better re-read both of the creation stories then, because the creation orders contradict each other. Guess it depends on which story teller you believe.
Well then, if he became flesh, he lived and was human for a time. Human sacrifice was forbidden to Jews and Jesus was a Jew who would know that.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, as an atheist, i certainly don't believe the universe was created in 6 days, but jews do, at least, some of them do. and judaism is not a monolith and it is nothing like it was in jesus's days nor in moses's days.
it's hard to know how to talk to you. you defend judaism and then strike it down in the next line.
i guess you acknowledge that judaism is a lie that pretends that a god intimately involved with jews exists?
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Judaism is one belief system, Christianity is another. The only thing they have in common is a Jewish male called Jesus. To one system, he was a man. To the other, he was divine, either a half god or God himself.
The Jewish belief system is much more believable since it doesn't incorporate the supernatural while Christianity is based almost wholly on the supernatural. I just can't believe the story because it, to me, is just another pagan man-god story like that of dionysus.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944 2) I accept that in both camps there are those who believe each body of thought and certainly don't ridicule those beliefs. I do point out contradictions from historical writings or lack thereof, science and such.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, neither judaism nor christianity are "one belief system", they are both umbrellas under which all sorts of ideas sit (and kill each other). authentic forms are rare and possibly extinct in the case of judaism since no prophet (other than christ) has risen with the authority to end the temple (or tabernacle) sacrifices.
"The Jewish belief system is much more believable since it doesn't incorporate the supernatural"
judaism is ENTIRELY based on the supernatural myth of yhwh!
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded - Jesus was not a prophet, must. The temple and alter stood on ground that is now occupied by a moslem mosque and has been for hundreds of years. No temple, no alter - no sacrifices since 70AD.
On that basis, then all religions are based on the supernatural which cannot be proven. You'l have to admit though, the idea of a god taking human form, dying and then rising again is pretty far out and separate from reality. Those elements strain credibility.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, if someone divided a sea, piled up the waters of the Jordan, turn back the sun and sent hornets against your enemies, then i would have no problem believing that he could incarnate as a human and resurrect himself (by time-travel?) if he was unique and not part of an elohim ("they who are mighty") who would resurrect him. You cannot challenge the writings about what happened to jesus if you believe that the miracles of the OT actually happened.
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded if someone divided a sea, piled up the waters of the Jordan, turn back the sun and sent hornets against your enemies"
That's a pretty big "IF", must. Do you believe that Apollo drove his chariot of fiery horses across the sky to give light ? Same bunch of hooey.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded The anti-christ is a Christian invention. "The word appears in the Johannine epistles for the first time, and does not recur (except in a citation of those epistles by Polycarp) until the extended discussion of the Antichrist doctrine by Irenaeus a hundred or so years later (haer. V.25)"
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Did you know that the only thing that separates us from apes is one chromosome? We have one less and that is because two of our corresponding chromosomes fused to become one. What do you suppose would have happened with an "X with a piece broken off"? X cannot change to become a Y - They are separate and distinct and each has its specific function.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, yes i am aware of the ape dna difference, though there's more difference than what you said. victims of down syndrome have the same extra chromosome, ape-style. i am not a geneticist, but i believe that i have heard the Y as an X with part broken off, of course, this may be wrong.
sacrifice is UNDENIABLY critical in authentic judaism. otherwise, millions, perhaps billions, of animals were sacrificed on a lark. modern judaism discounts it as a reaction to chriistianity.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded How could it be a REACTION when it came first?
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded 2) Additionally, it is not sufficient to be of the house of David to be the Messiah. One must also fulfill all of the major Messianic prophecies. Jesus fulfilled none of the major Messianic prophecies
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, jesus fulfilled none of the "messianic" prophecies that the jews wanted him to. they were trying to dictate to god what should be done, but god had a different purpose. he intended "proclaim liberty to the captives" to mean liberty from the oppression of sin and the law of sin and death.
the jews were only interested in political power (who cares which dictator you have to endure?), but god said, "yeah, i really don't care for your character, let's work on that first."
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded jesus fulfilled none of the "messianic" prophecies that the jews wanted him to. "
In order to establish himself as the true messiah, the FULLY HUMAN male from the house of David had to perform certain tasks DURING HIS LIFETIME. Jesus failed to do this. You're applying Christian thinking to an entirely different body of thought - doesn't work. Remember what I said - Jews think about THIS LIFE - Christians are more concerned about faith getting them into THE OTHER WORLD.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded The Daniel prophecy is from the OT and has nothing to do with the man, Jesus. Tradition was created by the Catholic church just as they claim that Peter was the first pope even though he was a practicing Jew who believed Jesus to be a man, not a god. Paul wrote extensively about his travels and although he names, names - he never mentioned being in the company of Peter while courting pagan converts.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded 2) In his lifetime, his followers at the Jerusalem temple were practicing Jews who believed he was a man, not a God. Keeping Jewish festivals does't make you a Jew anymore than if you live in a garage, it makes you a car. You keep forgetting that there were two kinds of Christians. The first were Jews who thought of Jesus as a man. After Paul, the second lot were mostly pagan converts who thought Jesus was a man-god.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, i agree with you that there is a vast sea of pagan "christians", they aren't authentic. But not believing in the divinity of christ (before & after his purely human existence as jesus) doesn't make you pagan. you fail to understand that paganism's true definition is religion that the hebrew god doesn't institute. animal sacrifice isn't pagan even though pagans practice it, because moses instituted it in the tabernacle. similarly, God the Son belief is not pagan if "God" says so.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded God the DIVINE son is not Jewish, so that leaves only the pagans, must. You keep bringing up "sacrifice" and I keep telling you. Sacrifice is central to Pauline Christianity and without that concept, there is no religion. Sacrifice isn't the issue with Jews to whom the eternal covenant between them and God is the central theme. If they remain faithful to the one undivided God and keep the commandments, he will protect them.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, i keep bringing up sacrifice from the OT. i'm trying to debate this issue from the OT only.
judaism is not a monolith, there are lots of versions of it and there have been other versions of it in the past. when i say "judaism", it is as vague as saying "christianity". i usually intend to mean the true religion of moses and the true religion of christ.
however, if someone is talking about christ, they should steer clear of catholic mythology & talk about the NT writings ONLY.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded - Yes, I know you do and I can't see why it is that important. ANIMAL sacrifices havent been done for almost 2000 years and are not central to Judaism.
What other versions of Judaism are there? The religion of Jesus the man was Judaism. That of "Christ" the divine is embedded in Pauline Christianity. It seems that somewhere in time, a man was made into a god and a new religion, quite different from the first, was born. The RCC is the root of today's protestantism.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, modern judaism is not authentic judaism because they do not have sacrifices nor a temple. when moses brought out israel, they had the tabernacle and then they got a temple. They always had sacrifices while they had prophets. modern judaism is apostate from this concept just as catholicism is apostate from authentic christianity in every way. authentic christianity predates catholicism and its offshoots.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded modern judaism is not authentic judaism because they do not have sacrifices nor a temple. "
Only from the Christian point of view because the concept of sacrifice is so important. Authentic Christianity as you call it would incorporate Ebionites and Nazarenes, not Pauline Christians. Both of the first two were declared to be heretics, hunted down and killed. I wouldn't call it "authentic", must - just two different birds.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, Paul NEVER called Jesus a mangod. he agreed with john who said, contrary to popular versions of "christianity",
2 John 1:7
"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the FLESH. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."
John quotes Jesus expressing that flesh and spirit are mutally exclusive:
John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Actually, it's John who agrees with Paul, since his writings came 40 years or so afterwards. The writer of the John gospel wasn't and eye witness.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
pagan christianity arises because people like the samaritan simon magus used syncretism to increase their personal power and wealth, and especially because Rome learned that it could control & unify its empire by blending all religions into one national cult. Paul has nothing to do with these false christianities, though people have always liked to twist his words into all sorts of errors (2 Peter 3:16).
There were all flavors of "christians" not just 2, & jesus was not popular (John 6:66-67).
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded - Rome almost as a rule was quite content to take all new religions and incorporate them into the burgeoning stock it already had as long as its citizens pledged allegience to the Emperor. Paul was the first to make Jesus into a man-god and his story developed in Rome. Remember the incident at Antioch where he was accused of heresy and Romans helped him. We cannot know if Jesus was popular or not since there is no contemporary historical support for him outside of the bible.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, usually, when the people who honor someone the most describe their leader as unpopular, we can take their word with a good deal of weight. so when john 6 says that he lost many of his followers BECAUSE OF HIS TEACHINGS, we should understand that the real jesus was not popular. people really only followed him because they wanted to see a miracle, they didn't have television back then.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Again, must, John - 60-80 years later, is relating hearsay. I'm more inclined to think there WERE no miracles, must. Even with the crucifixion - nothing contemporary was written. Philo had relatives in Jerusalem at that time and visited there. He was especially interested in the afterlife. He wrote nothing.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, you make a huge distinction between jews and the bible when you say jews are not sacrifice-centered, because the bible ABSOLUTELY is.
1) Adam & Eve sinned and god kills an animal to make them skins
2) Cain & Abel are sacrificing and god only respects the animal sacrifice
3) Abraham is asked to perform a human sacrifice BY GOD and like a faithful follower, begins to do it.
4) Moses institutes a whole culture of sacrifice (authentic judaism)
modern jews are apostate.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Human sacrifice was forbidden, must.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944
"Human sacrifice was forbidden"
please understand this:
of course it is forbidden. you cannot pick a man & kill him and think your sins are forgiven. but if the god who created you gives up his divinity, becomes a human mortal and gives his life in your place, then it is valid (his life has value) & has NOTHING to do with RANDOM human sacrifices.
it is also in the same category as god forbidding murder while he sanctions genocide against canaanites--you don't argue with god.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded Deuteronomy 12:30-31, God calls Human sacrifice something that He hates, and an abomination to Him, "for every abomination to the Eternal (God), which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
Remember? "God does not become a man and a man does not become a god"
I rather think that the genocide was much more THEIR idea, but making it something that came from God was a pretty handy tool.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, i really wish you would grasp the difference between me choosing to sacrifice my children to some idol and the "actual creator" of the universe giving his life to pay the death penalty that human sins have incurred.
Even if i was sacrificing someone to yhwh, it would still be contrary to the law. but yhwh CAN sacrifice himself and even the jews can't tell him otherwise.
"Remember? "God does not become a man and a man does not become a god"" no, where is that from?
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded I can understand that you think there is some difference between an 'idol" and the "actual creator" but I see them as being essentially the same thing, except that you happen to believe in one and not the other. God hates human sacrifice -why would you sacrifice a human to him?
--
You're saying the God sacrificed himself to himself? Better read more of the bible, must.
---------------
That comes from Numbers in the OT.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944,
"That comes from Numbers in the OT."
can't find it.
i find examples of god and man being interchangeable, such as when abraham entertains the "men", when jacob wrestles with "god" at peniel. but that's unimportant.
the purpose of an animal sacrifice is to remind one that sin costs, the purpose of god's sacrifice is to pay the penalty for sin once and for all. the biblical (not modern jewish) day of atonement ritual involves 2 goats, so without sacrifice there is no atonement.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded the purpose of god's sacrifice is to pay the penalty for sin once and for all. "
That is pagan. Psalm 49:7-9 No man can Redeem the life of another or to give to God a ransom for him
the ransom for a life is costly.
The significance of the day of atonement has alreacy been explained, I believe. It hasn't involved animals for 2000 years. The atonement is to be carried out in THIS LIFE to make wrongs right again, by apologies and restitution to those harmed.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, if christ had been yhwh, his life was unique and his sacrifice was nothing like a pagan human sacrifice.
Psalm 49:7-9 is talking about rich people buying their brothers.
As for the Day of Atonement, no way! You act like the jews can make up practices other than what Moses claimed yhwh told him to institute! Sorry buddy, Elijah contended with such jews & he killed their "prophets". modern judaism is apostate & heavily influenced by reactions against all forms of christianity.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded You likely won't believe it, but Christianity isn't all that important to Jews. They keep a low profile and try to keep their own national identity. Through the last 2000 years Christianity hasn't been kind to them to say the least starting in the early centuries.
Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded 2) In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."
The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; ; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, look, you can list all the gory stories you like, those people claimed to be christian but obviously weren't followers of christ who taught people to turn the other cheek and bless those who curse you. neither is rome christian, nor any church that doesn't DO what christ taught. in fact, the christian bible teaches that when christ returns there will only have been 144,000 christians (including Abraham, et al). It was not meant to be a world religion until the kingdom starts.
muslUnbounded 7 months ago
@muslUnbounded You claim to be an atheist but you talk like a Christian. " Tertullian notes that a Christian sect of his day "does not receive certain Scriptures; and whichever of them it does receive, it perverts by means of additions and diminutions, for the accomplishment of it[s] own purpose;" "Eighty-two percent of the words ascribed to Jesus in the gospels were not actually spoken by him." (The Five Gospels, p. 3)
It's hard to judge exactly WHAT Jesus taught.
Matthew1944 7 months ago
@Matthew1944, i'm a former christian, but all religion is a con game.
"It's hard to judge exactly WHAT Jesus taught." you can say that about Newton too because we don't have video evidence of him speaking & perhaps he had ghost-writers or sources he stole from. Look at the controversy regarding who Shakespeare was.
Tertullian--Have you ever read Tacitus's list of possible origins of the jewish people?--it shows the total ignorance of Roman "geniuses" (the Histories Book V).
muslUnbounded 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded - Newton actually wrote documents and there is historical support in terms of other contemporary documentation - Jesus wrote nothing and there is no contemporary historical support for him.
Tacitus wrote at the end of the first century. He might have been learned for his day but the average fifth grader now knows more than he did.
Matthew1944 6 months ago
@muslUnbounded i'm a former christian, but all religion is a con game"
Me too, and I agree. You asked me why I support Judaism at time and sometimes I decry it. It's because I'm neither Christian nor Jew and the study in the striking difference in the two and the turmoil because of lack of understanding of these difference is interesting to me. I prefer to believe in a creative force/power - a creator and fully realize there is no support for that either.
Matthew1944 6 months ago