I Believe This Was A Video Clip Of CBS News' Face The Nation With Bob Schieffer's Report On McCain: Torture Investigation Would Be "Serious Mistake" On Sunday Morning, August 30, 2009.
the only thing that will get out of control will be the criminals running for the border if they do prosecute torture.. the biggest mistake will be not prosecuting the criminals.. if it would be a mistake to prosecute them then why do we bring charges against anyone in the court system ? justice is justice no one is above the law
If torture works then why don't we use it in the court systems. Instead of going through the legals system lets just torture people until we get confessions. I guarantee our conviction rate would be 100%. Thats because people will say what ever you want them to say to get you to stop torturing them. Hell McCain did. Does that make the video taped confession McCain gave while being tortured, credible intel? Was it true? No he did it to get them to stop. Torture is torture plain and simple...
I am sorry that you feel this way. You were tortured by the North Vietnamese when you were POW there. You understood the "deep" hatre down in your heart. Therefore, how can you turn your back to those responsible for torture - you should tell everyone that whoever response should be investigated and sent to prison. War Crime is crime. No one is saying that all CIA operatives are guilty and preciely for this reason - this should be clear Once and for All.
for your information many people did die whilst being interrogated, and there are many rapes that were reported in iraq, some of them were American women by american soldiers. there are many articles about it.
and as far as i know Obama is born in Hawaii with is a state, and your saviour, John Mccain was born in Panema, which is in South America the last time i checked
I don't know of anybody who died from being interrogated and rape is already illegal. There are rapes in all wars and the military court marshals rapists! This is about water-boarding, slapping and yelling at captured terrorists all that other shit you are talking about is illegal!
It's not just about where he was born it's also about the fact that he was a British citizen at birth and a subject of British jurisdiction! A valid legal argument can be made that he isn't a natural born citizen!
legal? how bout wrong is wrong. it wasnt illegal for the predatory lendors to take advantage of people. doesnt make it right. torturing people is wrong. and it is counter productive. but I see you are a birther, so you are allergic to logic
First off the "birther" comment; there is a mountain of evidence suggesting Obama isn't eligible for the Presidency, especially his being subject to British legal jurisdiction at birth! Second off; eviscerating the intelligence gathering capabilities of the CIA is only going to weaken national security! "Harsh interrogations" will be necessary to win the war. After you have asked then nicely, politely and courteously over milk and cookies and they tell you to go fuck yourself, whatcha gonna do?
actually all the experts say torture does not work. the expert w/ the fbi that was interogating one of them was getting credible intelligence before the torture began. thats when he clamed up. experts will tell you that if you want intelligence you do not torture. if you want a confession you torture. but bush did not hire experts. he hired psychologists who had zero experience in interogation. sound like a bush move?
long story short. whatever you gain in the short term you loose in the long
Everyone who actually studies torture though knows it's unreliable and counterproductive, not only to the interrogation but also to anything political.
and as a last choice to save your family? that's a pretty slippery slope to justify torture, especially when it clearly doesn't work.
he recognizes that the torture that took place violated the Geneva convention/convention against torture...
think of how serious of a crime torture is...fuckin torture...
and he dosent think that a country that claims it respects the rule of law should investigate and prosecute illegality because it was in the past? arent all crimes?
to me, that is not a moral position...
and is that not the true type of "political motivation" that cheney keeps referring to? the willingness to overlook?
I have a question to ask these torture supporters, since they seem so happy to ask. What would happen if, in the middle of the night, you were forcibly taken from your home, taken to a room with little more than a toilet. You were then beaten and given "advanced interrogation" techniques over and over, occasionally asked questions about something you have little or no knowledge about. And this happens for weeks and weeks (although it'd be hard to tell, you wouldn't know what a day was) and...
...you never see any friendly faces again, oyu dont know how your loved ones are doing or whether the're worried for you. Would you be happy that this is a good thing? that maybe some terrorists might be suffering? or that some information might be found that might help? We are a civilised society for a reason, we do not compromise on barbarous acts. The moment we do, then we cease to become a civilised society
Since when did I ever state that terrorism is right or ever justified? And how is my analysis of torture supporters' position, inaccurate? They advocate the torture of possibly innocent people.
My question is valid, would you happily sit in your prison cell and accept the "advanced interrogation" knowing that someone guilty might be aswell? Alternatively, would you let your loved ones or friends sit in a cell with the thought they might be being subjected such treatment? Dont sell your rights.
I'm not normally the one to subscribe to absolute morality, being a rationally thinking (or i try to be) atheist. But I don't think it's only about morality but about how much power we are willing to give the government, and the effects of allowing them to do this kind of thing.
If America wants to be the beacon of righteousness then it has to do away with these barbaric acts. We cannot win this "war" through firepower alone. Terrorists aren't evil, they are simply the victims of those that...
...use their superstiition and irrationality to control them. And their desperation is what feeds them, and there are many moderates who simply wish to get on with their lives. But acts of torture, and illegal wars make us lose our credibility in their eyes. We win this war when we can isolate those that insight these kinds of fundamentalist ideas. And if it means we need to be bigger and to reign our anger, then so be it. The only end this war is seeing is filling the pockets of profiteers.
John McCain is in the CFR which means he is ass-fucking the country with Globalist Bullshit. He is no different from Obama, or Bush, or Clinton, or Reagan. All of them were traitors. Al Quaida is a joke and so is the war on terror. There is no Al Quaida. Al Quaida is a CIA false flag. Fuck McCain!
Sorry Dick Head, but my engineering background has damned me with critical thinking. As far as 911 goes, look up the melting point of steel and the highest possible heat attainable by jet fuel. Combine that with the fact that only 3 steel buildings ever collapsed as a result of fire and all 3 happened on the same day. As for the moon: There is no transparrant material even today that can withstand the teperature variation of light and shadow on the moon. Both ARE bullshit for stupid folk like u
The US has been torturing/raping children as young as 8 years of age for centuries.
We have men that will protect the rights of evil men over the rights of cowardly men who hide under special priviledge or in bunkers with the help of shills spinsters & ignorant people.
Obamas set up to take the fall
Its the Jewish/White oligarchy that has ruined Africa, poisoned America, bombed Asia & occupies the World.
Years from now, . . . CIA agents dealing with hardened terrorists will have to worry about whether what they do to get information out of terrorists to save American lives will make the agents themselves liable to prosecution that can destroy their careers and ruin their lives.
. . . getting other people killed so that you can feel puffed up about yourself is profoundly immoral. So is betraying the country you took an oath to protect.
yup. So is hamas, hezbollah (kind of) and virtually every other world dictator.
even hitler was elected by the people. what did he say..."how fortunate it is for governments that the people do not think."
or something of the sort. the two most deadly attributes of a nation: hate, and obscene idealism. hate leads to genocide, rape, and murder, and obscene idealism leads to self-loathing, romanticizing terrorism, justifying an opponents actions, and surrendering to an imminent threat.
look at europe. already making plans under the table for a volatile middle east and nuclear iran.
when countries start revolving the individual, and not the country, not the constitution - problems arise. twists in perception, moral flexibility, and compromising basic humanity to avoid conflict, confrontation...or *gasp* pissing other nations off.
Venezuela STILL holds democratic elections. This said, Bush tried to stage a coup, and install a rightwing dictator, but failed. Most of what you hear about Venezuela in the US media is bullshit.
Castro was NOT elected. He overthrew the Batista dictatorship (American backed).
A good number of dictators have been installed by Americans, most notably, the Shah of Iran, Pinochet in Chile, and Suharto in Indonesia. Suharto was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Okay with US.
You are correct. President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela offered one million barrels of oil and 5 million dollars in aid to the United States after Hurricane Katrina This aid was rejected by the State Department. State-owned Petróleos de Venezuela, the parent company of Citgo Petroleum Corporation, has also pledged a $2 million donation for hurricane aid. Two mobile hospital units were also offered, but were declined. The gulf coast is still struggling to recover 4yrs later...
yes, why would the USA want to accept a lousy 5 million from a corrupt dictatorship who has verbally wished us harm? a man who says he is fighting "US imperialism" and hangs out with the dbag of Iran? not to mention expressing solidarity with those who fight israel...XD
u r implying that the gulf is somehow worse off because the usa failed to accept hugo's oil-blood? r u insane?
seriously?
this is the kind of idealism im talking about. to even remotely put chavez in a positive light. LOLOL
When someone extends their hand in an attempt to do the right thing you don't spit in their face. And you wonder why he has resentment for this country? 4yrs later and the coast is still struggling to recover at the time those resources would've proven useful. For over 2mos. we had no power the only hospital was a tent and they are still finding bodies to this day washed up in the woods and under abandoned buildings. Those resources could've been used. He called Bush Satan not the U.S.
Chavez was not attempting to do the right thing. the USA would never accept aid from a 3rd world dictator who has wished our allies destruction, aligns himself with islamic theocrats, and demands an end to the American war and calls for a unified struggle against western imperialism.
this is exactly the point. this emotional-based logic, obsession with character and unrealistic (not to mention naive) understanding world politics put people like Chavez in power.
ImNeil, Chavez is not a dictator. He's leftist, sure, and that's why Bush had such problems with him. At the UN, Chavez called Bush the devil, and to many millions around the world he was. Bush has the blood of hundreds of thousands on his hands.
And so far as US imperialism goes, sorry to burst your bubble, but America has a long and disgraceful history of meddling in Central and South America.
This has nothiing to do with your 'idealism' nonsense. It is but a statement of facts.
nope, chavez is a dictator, and if u knew anything ud know he passed a law (all by himself) that effectively makes him president indefinitely. he shut down private media, nationalized the oil industry, and took over any business that threatened his way. also suspected of calling kill orders to unpopular journalists.
and no, this american imperialism bullshit is PURE leftist propaganda, designed to undermine the influence of the united states and prop up dicks like Chavez into the spotlight.
Sorry, wrong again. Chavez held a referendum (awfully democratic for a dictator) proposing that his term be extended and his powers broadened, but it didn't pass.
And look at all of the things Bush did without consulting the people at all - warrantless wiretaps and the suspension of habeas corpus, secret prisons and that old chestnut - torture.
Meanwhile, nationalizing oil companies is not dictatorial - it just pisses off Americans.
bullshit. chavez passed a law early 2009 that ENDED term limits, meaning he can remain in power indefinitely. he also nationalized the oil industry, took over the media, and sent kill orders to unpopular journalists. i like how u totally skipped that, the left wishful thinking. always need a 3rd world dictator to hold ur hand and do ur laundry.
yes, american imperialism is bullshit. complete chomsky ramble to pimp whoever says "fuck america." opportunists at best.
The reason I skipped your 'kill order' statement is because you said he was 'suspected' of the crime. Suspected by who? Fox and Friends? I think it's funny how in your next post, 'suspected' has become 'and sent kill orders' Oh my, suddenly it's become a fact!
venezula has one of the highest murder rates in the world. hugo chavez has been ACCUSED by many of killing unpopular journalists. seems in line with taking over the media, which a free liberal like urself seems to be very comfortable wtih.
russia has killed hundreds of journalists, but most dont reach the news because...hey, russia dominates the media as well.
cant couch in any criticism of ur jesus-dictator as fox propaganda. ur infantile obsession with poor leadership is truly hilarious.
I haven't glorified anyone, dolt, I just think it's hilarious when Americans abhor one dictator while getting all warm and fuzzy with another, even going so far as to hold hands.
the election wasn't seriously flawed, there was no election.
anyone who has a basic understanding of how the iranian government works will know that the supreme leaderand the mullahs control everything. the military, the presidency, oil, all of it. they decide who has power.
and the protests weren't violent, the reaction was violent. thousands of protestors still reside in iranian jails, having their genitals ripped off and summarily executed.
And I agree, the mullahs are the ultimate power. I would never deny that Iran is a theocratic dictatorship. Still, women, in particular, enjoy more freedom there than they do in America's buddy Saudi Arabia.
women becomes a legal adult at 7, men is 9. women can be executed for simple things, like flirting with another man, sex outside of marriage, sodomy, homosexuality..u know.
and the tricky thing is, u cant execute a women that is a virgin. so the iranian guard marries the woman, gang rapes her, and then EXECUTES her.
cause then its totally kosher.
oh, and they also stone homosexuals. and bankroll hamas and hezbollah
Still, it's better than where Bush's hand-holding buddies come from, where a woman can't leave home without being escorted by a male relative, can't drive a car, can't have a bank account. And is subject to similar punishments as are meted out in Iran. Still, Iranian women can become doctors, other types of professional, politicians, and so on
who cares? saudi arabia is not threatening the allies with nuclear war.
virtually all the gulf states and arab dicks r despotic, so there is really no point saying this one is better than the other. the USA isnt the only country who buys oil from the arabs u know.
supposedly, its better we have leverage..over, say...Russia or China.
of course, that doesnt cross ur mine. make love not war, LOL.
Um... duh... 14 of the 19 hijackers on 911 were Saudi nationals. Saudi Arabia finances the Madrasses, the schools where fanatics are educated to hate America and Isreal and all infidels.
If a terrorist ever does detonate a nuke in the US, he'll probably have a Saudi connection.
I'm amazed at the shallowness of your thinking. This is like a discussion with Bush.
uh? im not disputing anything about saudi arabia this is not limited to saudi arabia. qatar, UAE, saudi arabia have all be implicated in paying protection money to al-qaeda since 2003, even tho they r fighting in the "war on terror"
regardless, iran is still a principal threat. it is actively developing nuclear weapons, and is an open support of hamas, hezbollah, and trains much of the iraqi insurgency
the middle east has institutionalized antisemitism and bigotry, it is not limited to SA
Iran's? Well, technically - I consider the Shah the truly ruler of Iran. I have yet to recognize the Islamic dicktators as the true leaders.
making active threats against allies, bankrolling hamas and hezbollah, training and advising the iraqi insurgency, and finalizing a nuclear weapons program is disturbing enough.
but canadian citizens, members of the free world - the western world, to romanticize this, justify it under "sovereignty" is nothing less than insanity.
Why doesn't that surprise me. The Shah was a brutal dictator (at least he's not Chavaz, right?) who was installed by the CIA after the overthrow of a legitimate government. This was back in the 50s.
Typical American, divide the third world up into good dictators and bad dictators - then preach freedom.
ImNeil, for all of your incoherent babble about 'obscene idealism' leading misguided people to be appologists for dictators, you are an appologist for the Shah of Iran.
This is laughable.
Your 'friend of the West' was installed by the CIA. That's okay with you.
Everything you said in your prior, inarticulate, posts is proved erronious by your embrace of the Shah.
"Self-loathing Faggot"
Represents the pinnacle of your intellectual powers.
hat's what our CIA does - protect America's interest.
ur flirtation with a 3rd world dictator, who's mannerism is strikingly similar to Barack Obama, the personality cult, whoring the media, one country under one man, makes me laugh.
I am an apologist for the shah of Iran. The shah had a strong modernization policy, recognized Israel, and merged the tradionalists classes. It was the closest thing to secularism outside of Israel in the ME. u cant stand that. u like enemies of the west.
yes, that's okay with me. Britain wanted their oil, there was questions of whether or not the "democratically-elected" government was leaning towards the Communist narrative.
Hamas is a "democratically-elected" government. Doesn't mean we should support it.
No, u don't love freedom. You love those who conspire against the West, and will gladly pimp those who incite hatred, racism, and nuclear war as long as they r on the other end of "western imperialism"
What exactly is 'the West'? Would that include your friend, France? Your statement is so devoid of any meaning (or truth), that it's, well, just pathetic.
And simply because I think your reasoning stupid and take pains to point this out to you - I somehow love those who hate my country. You are a fucking moron.
"dont pass urself off as a moralist"
I don't have to. I am vastly morally superior to you right wing nut jobs.
West, as in Western civilization. As in freedom, as in consistent with our foreign policy and national sovereignty objectives.
keep the name calling.
yes, those who claim to be moral supremacists tend to be the most morally flexible.
ur absurd defense of the Islamic republic, Hugo Chavez...and let me guess, the Khmer Rouge (Chomsy's favorite) all because they defy western imperialism...LOLZ.
islamists love people like u. u will don a burka the moment they demand tolerance, haha. dhimmi!
im sure if u asked the nazis, what their principal threat was, they'd say the Jews. I'm sure if you asked the arabs, what their principal threat was, they'd say the Jews.
A country that is run by certified-holocaust deniers, operates a media that is less reliable than the Onion and puts "Death to Israel/USA" in their constitution, cannot be taken seriously.
What is wrong with training the Iraqi insurgency? Oh, I don't know - the recent 101 Iraqi civilians murdered by the insurgency. FAIL
How about the hundreds of thousands killed as a result of the American INVASION and OCCUPATION of a country that posed NO THREAT! And don't give me any Bush bullshit. I smell oil.
And if you'd asked the Nazis what their principal threat was, they would have said the USSR. Why are you so obsessed with Jews?
And finally, a country whose people sing about rockets and bombs in their national anthem is just plain weird.
More like millions. So what? United States invaded a country under bogus terms. Regardless of whether or not Bush knew Iraq had no WMDs, it doesnt change the fact that the country is in a civil war, and thousands are dying because the Saudis, Kuwait, Qatar, and the UAE continue to pay hundreds of millions to Al-Qaeda for protection.
u seem to be obsessed with the indefensible, the islamic despots, yet have no issue blaming America for everything.
You'll start siding with Republicans when they betray the nation with as much gusto as do Democrats.
Aside from the treason and betrayal of exposing CIA agents and classified war programs to the enemy during war, the Democrats' attempt to criminalize the act of national defense will have a strong negative affect on future defenders of America.
Ignorance is a word also. Terrorism is just one of the few words he can spell. All I hear is that the way to win the war on terror is to "crush it". We could nuke the middle east completely off the map and idiots believe that will end terrorism. Where is the line when it comes to fighting terrorist acts and committing them?
yes, crush it. find it, calculate, plan, and crush it.
u ask urself, do the ends justify the means? if the answer is yes, then yes. carpet bombing a continent does not justify the means.
the middle east is not the center of islamic terrorism. terrorism is more or less a manifestation of an already extremely backwards and archaic culture, but continues to be exported and supplied because of a certain necessary and globally-demanded commodity....OIL.
I brought it up as threat from an emp. This can be a fairly small blast from a ship, as both N kor, and Iran have trained for. ICBMs are not as substantial of a threat, those allow time for counter measures. For being in the AF, you don't seem to know JackS about these sort of things.
All it takes is a small disturbance in the geomagnetic field to fry most of our electronics, even high solar activity can cause it, let alone an EMP
How would those ships you speak of get within range to launch such an attack and you still haven't said how they would get their nuke. A more sensible scenario would be to bribe illegal immigrants or Americans for that matter to spread a biological or chemical attack and use prevailing winds to take out an entire city without ever being detected. Being N.E.M.S. certified those are the types of scenarios we train for. Not Nukes from terrorists because the possibility of obtaining them is minute
International waters. Ships have the right to be close enough to carry out such an attack. All they need is 5 crew members with an agenda, and a very small nuke. Portable launch stations are assembled in a matter of minutes and a missle could be airborne before we could even react. NK and Iran are running training drills on this, have been for years.
and our fleets in the gulf and med. are highly exposed. pentagon released simulation assessments pitting our ships and iranians surface-to-sea missiles...and it was worse than pearl harbor.
and lets not forget our highly exposed bases in iraq. rather ironic, as much as the arabs hate israel, saudi arabia, kuwait, and jordan all want the jews to bomb iran.
they know once iran gets nuclear, their oil-monopoly will be a ticking clock. they would have to submit to iran.
You idiots do not have a complete braincell between you. Lets all hide the world is out to get us not because we unjustly invade a country or torture people or claim that we are better than them and their lives and traditions have no significance but because they hate our freedoms... That is lunacy. As long as we have idiots that believe like that you will have terrorists that want to keep that sort of influence away from its homeland and citizens. You two have been eating lead paint chips...
Oh thats right, radical islamics dont think were great satin, they're just playing around. They really wanted to give us flowers and candy on 9-11, their pilots just sucked right?
You want to talk about putting ur life on the line? Yes I've been into 2 structure fires, one when the fire dept wouldn't go in. I made the newspapers too. I dropped a woman from a second story fully involved house fire, and she broke her ankle. I wasn't on the clock though, just doing "my job" as a citizen
Well go in a couple thousand more then talk to me.Once you serve in 2 conflicts in the military as I did then you earn the right to denounce my patriotism. What paper was you in? I would like to read the story. I started out in a volunteer dept and still serve as a member on that dept as well. I have also been to New York and worked alongside East Rockaway F.D. in Long Island after 9/11 and didn't receive a dime I was simply helping my fellow firefighters. Get a life loser...
Send it to me next time, don't just post it to the vid and run away. The only reason I checked back on the forum was some other guy hit a comment. Looser? Come on, 3 college degrees, I could have a beaurocratic job if I wanted. Hopefully you start recieving IOU's the more time you spen on the computer while on the clock
I'm home now you moron. I don't live at the station. Although i only live 2 blocks away. You say you were a firefighter how do you approach a burning car? What is the first thing you do upon arrival to a structure fire? What is a SCBA? What tool is used to breach doors? Don't google it hurry now...
Self contained breathing aparatus idiot, Others vary by departmental policy, besides the only buring car I ever approached was a brake fire. Remember? I went to college, only worked 72 hrs a month
You only approached a brake fire? You actually fought a fire without being trained how to approach one or the first thing that needs to be done at a structure fire. Your a liar no dept would let you near a fire without proper training first. I went to college too and served on a volunteer dept. When I was a jr. firefighter at age 15 i knew the answers to these questions. thats why I chose them any one with minimal training should be able to answer them and its universal it doesn't vary by dept.
I never said I "fought a fire" I said I went into 2 structure fires, I wasn't even with the department, nore were they in the same jurisdiction. I was quite bored with the whole FF thing. It was also a rural department, and I volunteered as an Intern to see if I even wanted to do it. It is a program in liue of a silly fire academy so nope, no formal training.
Even volunteers have to go through training at the state academy as per VFIS rules. Which is the insurance company that insures volunteer depts or you would never be allowed to suit up in your bunker gear. You just lied about the whole thing. That says alot for any so called facts you try to put fourth in a debate. What is fact and whats not fact? You became bored with firefighting but you have yet to tell us what you do. Don't bother its probably a lie too. You have lost all credibility...
McCain is an old fool with Bush's shit on his nose from sniffing Bush's Butt. What would he really know? I guess he showed how fast he would give up secrets when the North Vietnamese poked him in the eye.
This is just another demobrat retard attempt by ahomo bin laden to get us off the healthcare crap.Before you liberal deadheads start running your mouth.
1: The ottoman empire was the previous nazi-type political system, before the rise of hitler.If they hang a women for minor thing. All you female dogs,and fags better think twice before selling us out to hate mongering muslims.
And what exactly would be wrong with a war on evil?Why not a war on evil? No one has a problem with a war on poverty. Isn't poverty evil? J in a G would argue--I'll bet--that poverty causes war. So why not a war on evil (which exactly equals a war on poverty, right)?
What about a war on child abuse--also evil?
Damn I'm brilliant!!
See J in a G and Mr Fart, I can confuse an issue every bit as well as you can.
A war on evil...indeed. What a wonderful idea. I'm glad I thought of it....
Why is it you and soberanddisorderly show up at the same time are you connected at the ass? Your both idiots who make asinine comments that only confirms your stupidity. Any of you watch any more tv to get more outrageous scenarios you want to put out? I wasted far to much time on you last night and tonight I'm on call so I don't have time for your adolescent antics. Grow up...
Anyone think that if we would've used enhanced interrogation when Clinton had Osama Bin Laden in custody, he might have been a bit more reserved in letting him go?
Oh yes, and BTW, Clinton did use such techniques, not on Osama, but there is record of harsh interrogation on others. Should we arrest him too?
Clinton never had Bin Laden in custody. He launched air strikes against him in retaliation for Bin Ladens attacks on our embassies in Africa but couldn't get backing from the Republicans to go in on the ground. They cried "Wag the Dog" he's going to war unjustly to take the attention off Monica Lewinsky. They also said Bin Laden posed no significant threat to the U.S.. Peddle your propaganda somewhere else...
actually, we had osama bin laden in 1996. he was in sudan. sudan agreed to extradite him to Saudi Arabia. the CIA sprinted to Jeddah to pick him up. SA refused to extradite him.
u want to know y? because saudi arabia is not our ally, they bankroll al-qaeda and use our petrodollars to pay for the genocides in darfur, warlords in somalia, LeT in pakistan, iraqi insurgency, etc..etc..
but it doesnt matter. oil is far more important, and that sad thing is....it's true.
We never had him. Capturing Osama bin Laden has been an objective of the United States government since the presidency of Bill Clinton. Shortly after the September 11 attacks it was revealed that President Clinton had signed a directive authorizing the CIA to apprehend bin Laden and bring him to the United States to stand trial after the 1998 United States embassy bombings in Africa.
it has never been an objective, not if it compromised our relationships with the oil tit.
why do u think we allow this arab bigots and trolls, who r responsible for some of the worst genocides of the last decade, walk all over israel?
because they have the oil. we will be indifferent to the darfur genocide, the muslim warlords in somalia, the pakistan genocide of bangaldesh, LeT, hezbollah, hamas and will continue to support those who sponsor the above groups.
; if taking bin Laden alive was deemed impossible, then deadly force was authorized. On August 20, 1998, 66 cruise missiles launched by United States Navy ships in the Arabian Sea struck bin Laden's training camps near Khost in Afghanistan, narrowly missing him by a few hours. In 1999 the CIA, together with Pakistani military intelligence, had prepared a team of approximately 60 Pakistani commandos to infiltrate Afghanistan to capture or kill bin Laden,
but the plan was aborted by the 1999 Pakistani coup d'état; in 2000, foreign operatives working on behalf of the CIA had fired a rocket-propelled grenade at a convoy of vehicles in which bin Laden was traveling through the mountains of Afghanistan, hitting one of the vehicles but not the one bin Laden was in
In 2000, prior to the September 11 attacks, Paul Bremer characterized the Clinton administration as "correctly focused on bin Laden", while Robert Oakley actually criticized their "obsession with Osama". I will agree with you to some extent about how oil plays a major role in our military efforts in the middle east and your right it's sad. Before naysayers start inundating me with comments wiki Osama Bin Laden because that is where this info comes from.
wow wikipedia - the world's most unreliable encylopedia. of course robert oakley pimps clinton, he was part of the administration. u think he will admit failures?
our relationship with these countries is totally backwards.u cant have a "war on terror" if ur allies r known sponsors of terrorism
we've sold 200+ billion of weapons - planes, tanks, guns, etc to the arabs, that have been found in the hands of al-shabaab, arab islamists in darfur, LeT, hamas, hezbollah, etc.
That is not the only source. Just because they have the info does not make it false . Where did your facts come from? He was never captured by the U.S.? So where can we research your claims?
Try the library of congress they have the same facts. Or do you just dispute everything that doesn't agree with you. You still haven't given a specific unbiased source that confirms we had Bin Laden and let him go.
The author of your article,Mansoor Ijaz, a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, and chairman of a New York-based investment company. He was also employed by Fox news. Wow thats an unbiased source.Several sources dispute Ijaz's claim, including the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks on the United States (the 9-11 Commission) which concluded in part Sudan's minister of defense, Fatih Erwa, has claimed that Sudan offered to hand Bin Ladin over to the United States.
The Commission has found no credible evidence that this was so. Ambassador Carney had instructions only to push the Sudanese to expel Bin Ladin. Ambassador Carney had no legal basis to ask for more from the Sudanese since, at the time, there was no indictment out-standing.
Wiki is probably the easiest read for most not many people will bother to read through all the executive orders and amendments and legal jargon but wiki has the basics condensed down version for the general public to read.
Bin Laden's security coordinator was captured in 96 and Saudi Arabia refused to extradite him not Bin Laden looks my Wiki's facts are more credible than yours...
It says that Plaime and her hubby were covert ops. Just like the left was saying until CIA declassified their docs used in the Libby case, which completely contridict it. What a joke, I'd love to see you use wiki as a credable source in any scholarly work. Only retards believe Wiki, I could go on right now and write just about anything I want on wiki. If it even sounds marginally believable, the left ul buy it hook line and sinker
What would you do if a nuke was in a major city?WHAT WOULD YOU DO? WHAT WOULD YOU DO? Only retards use former episodes of 24 to try and win a debate. Nothing on wiki is true including what they say about George W. and Regan nothing... I also gave the Library of Congress and The 9/11 commission which was a commission appointed by Republicans but just as with tortureand healthcare you choose to ignore facts and focus on the minuscule. Wikipedia is not true. You and Doogie Howser need to grow up
no one is picking and choosing. u refuse to accept basic facts and intelligence and instead prefer mainstream drivel that pimps politicians.
this is not a matter of being close minded, u fail to realize the seriousness of the situation, and ur naivity, ahistorial, and simplistic view of this global conflict is laughable at best and disturbing at worst.
it is people like u who will surrender to intimidation, who wont act for fear of being too nasty or amoral.
So the way to fight evil and tyranny is to be evil and tyrants ourselves. I don't know about that one. Torture is not right regardless of who does it. Ask anyone that has had to watch Doogie Howser that was torture in it's own right.Oil Companies and greed run this world. It is their lobbyist and special interest groups that dictate policy. No one is naive on that point but if the people that run this world face no opposition or criticism from their constituents then greed and amorality wins out
not a matter of evil and tyranny, it is a matter of recognizing the enemy and not compromising strengths to meet a certain delusional idealist standard.
there is a precise method of extracting information, and clearly the CIA and other intelligence services consider various techniques r crucial in gaining intel. we arent chopping their fingers off or slicing their ears off.
either the CIA r just pure sadists ur just cant fight a war.
With all the top level AlQueda officials we have captured. Why hasn't torture yielded the whereabouts of Bin Laden? You would think that would be a question that was in the top 10 asked under torture. Fact is we need Bin Laden to perpetuate the fear and the war because we need a boogie man to keep public approval for our so called "War on Terror" If we wanted him he would be dead. He's a 7ft Muslim on dialysis how elusive can he be?
why would they know the whereabouts of bin laden? al qaeda is not a unified organization. it is a serious of cells, with thousands of officials...that, for the most part, do not know each other. osama bin laden skips between pakistan, afghanistan, and sudan - he doesnt tell his fellow buddies where and when he leaves.
finding one more, in a see of islamic despotism who have spent billions protecting, is very difficult.
especially when his family owns a stake in the saudi economy
You tell me to read a book look at your spelling in your last post. Learn how to spell. "Serious" of cells? A "see"of Islamic? Dildo!- That brings me back to my original point how do you defeat a tactic? Terrorism is a tactic. Terrorism has no de facto leader that will offer an unconditional surrender. So short of invading the world and alienating what few allies we have left. How do you win "The War on Terror" ?
A nuke in a major city is not as substantial of a threat as even a quite small nuke detonated in the upper atmosphere over the US.
A bomb in the magnitude of kilo tons would knock out power in the US for years. All of the generators are made overseas. Ur not a bright fellow are you?
You spend 24-7 on a YT forum, lemme guess, ur on the clock too? Typical lib
You brought up the Nukes last night I invite people to check out those idiotic statements of yours for themselves. as for being on the clock I am the #2 man in charge at this station all of my paperwork for the day is done and unless I receive a call I can do what ever i want. Call it a perk for years of hard work and dedication. Whats your excuse and wheres your buddy recking crew or whatever his name is. He can't be far behind you.
islamic terrorism is a reality. asymetric warfare is a tactic.
terrorism is semantics. some consider israel's surgical airstrikes into hamas' huts is terrorism. others consider 8 year olds blowing themselves up as terrorism.
it's all perspective really.
u dont defeat a tactic. u recognize an enemy, and neutralize it. u cant neutralize and enemy if u spend half the time questioning ur own ability to fight. it's absurd, it's counter-productive, and dangerous.
How about we withdraw forces, use that money to gather better intel, lull them into a false sense of security, use special forces and CIA special ops forces from around the world to target them covertly and save the U.S. billions along with saving countless soldiers lives as well as reducing the civilian casualties dramatically. If the last 8yrs have taught us anything is that an all out war does not yield the results that we want for the price paid...
You people like to cry socialism. Well i don't like having my tax dollars thrown down the bottomless pit that is the war on terror. Should Bin Laden and terrorist be punished for committing such a crime ? Absolutely. Do we need to go to war to do so? Absolutely not. The last 8yrs and over 1 trillion dollars and still no Bin Laden proves that path didn't work. Only an idiot would make a wrong turn and continue on that path for 8yrs .Most reasonable sensible people would change course...
the war on terror has cost less than 1 trillion since 2003.
obama has spent twice that amount in 6 months.
the war in iraq and afghanistan should not eliminate the necessity and usefulness of conflict. it is likely direct action will need to be taken with iran, though i dont think the american people would be willing to enter such a war.
if that is the case, much of the world might be finished.
Ur tax dollars? U make ur income from the private sector, your job is purely parasidic!
Chicago is a privatized department and it is one of the best in the world. Probably because it doesn't have people employed to spew uneducated statements on the internet
Are you saying all the firefighters who died on 9/11 were parasites? If you were ever trapped in a vehicle or a burning building I doubt you would consider them parasites. What do you do for a living that is such a value to this country. Firefighters put their lives on the line everyday for people they have never met and for you to trivialize that speaks volumes about the type of person you are. What have you done to serve this country or it's citizens?
Mainly just the ones who instead of working, get paid to spread lies on the internet.
Me, I've paid your annual wages a few times over. I hope every city privatizes their FD's, it will make them more efficient by trimming the less productive
Apparently you don't know how a Fire Dept works. I am not in a major metropolitan city so we don't have alarms going off every 5 minutes especially on a Tuesday evening. I have Captains , Lieutenants and senior firefighters who do a fine job making my job easier. I run the scene when their is a major crisis. I do the paperwork, I conduct the training, When all that is done I am simply setting around waiting for the next call. Again what is your contribution to society and America?
That is the problem, I used to work for a fire dept, but I volunteered. I chose not to pursue a beauracracy type of job. especially when one of our top paid administrators drove off when he was in charge of our communications. So sorry for getting pissed off when people don't do their jobs.
Afterall, we have 2+ million feds, and around 12 million state workers, our fed deficit is only 2 trillion dollars more then they earn for the year. What do I have to be pissed about?
"...and not compromising strenghts to meet a certain delusional idealist standard."
This is exactly the justification for torture a Nazi would provide. Opposition to torture is a "delusional idealist standard". And, torture is not a "strength", it is a sign of serious weakness.
"We arent chopping their fingers off or slicing their ears off."
Are you sure? What about the photos the Obama administration refused to release out of fears they would cause revulsion around the world?
the nazis used a series of fascist claims, racial superiority, endless struggle, general themes that i am not including.
compromising known-strengths, established and pre-determined abilities, to earn political points (appeasing x interest groups), pulling the moral card, going after unpopular ex-politicians etc..is counter-productive.
the end excuse is idealism, but im simply expanding why that does not exist - it is simply a platform for insanity.
we the most powerful, most influential, and most demanding country on the face of the earth. why kid ourselves? it is insanity to even for a moment think we are below another entity. whether it be the UN, or IAEA, or Al-Qaeda.
we r the best because we choose to be the best. doesnt mean we r intellectually superior, or immortal, but recognizing our global reach and position in the world is necessary.
if we dont know who we are, how can we sustain ourselves?
Agreed my friend. It pisses me off that Hollywierd chose to destroy GI Joe with their latest plot. THe americans get killed in the beginning and the world is saved by an elite force of UN peace keepers. WHat a joke!
If Obama bows to one more dictator, or says we have an elitist complex to one more opressive nation Im going to throw my TV out the window
haha GI joe sucked anyways so the plot specifics didnt bother me too much.
but i truly loathe our kowtowing to the United Nations and submission to the likes of Mohamed ElBaradei and Palestinian fuckholes, while totally ignoring a nuclear North Korea, endless social spending, and cozying up to 3rd world dictators while cursing true military and cultural allies.
Yep, the Palestian thing is pissing me off too. THey fled Israel when israle was fighting for its independence, just like the tori's fled the US when we faught Britian. We didn't let the tori's back in, they're still in Canada:) The refugees in Gaza are just that, and led by the same insane dictators that the Naggingone would argue for
there's more to the story, but its our obscene involvement and towing the arab line (israel is teh problem!!) that is really pissing me off. we need to adopt the kirkpatrick doctrine, which is to leave it alone. we support the jews, the arabs bankroll hamas and hezbollah, and let the conflict settle itself.
it is unfair that we have the right to fight al-qaeda and the taliban thousands of miles away, kills millions, and israel cant fight an enemy in its own backyard. bizarre.
We had a weapons embargo against them when they achieved independance from 5 attacking arab nations. We actually started the obscene support so that they would give the land back to Egypt and the other agressors. Israel didn't want the money, they wanted to keep the land, but we offered money and ourselves as an ally. I think Israel should've told us to piss off, and conquered the rest of the ME:) THen we wouldn't have had to go in so many times
We are not suppose to criticize the previous President or the special interest groups they appeased but criticizing the current one and dividing a country in an attempt to win a war that can't be won is asinine. If we carpet bomb the middle east you will have terror cells all over the world band together in retaliation and by the time you finish with all of them a new set will have risen to carry on the fight. We have borrowed money to fight this war who continues to pay for your ongoing war?
criticizing the president is one thing, calling for judicial appointments, demanding reviews, wagin lawfare against former political opponents, in attempt to further de-legitimize a certain party is not how our democracy works. Bush did not set up a cabal of journalists and government peons to service Clinton with a 1000 lawsuit on his tactical failures in Libya, and sabotaged pursuit of osama bin laden during his later term.
In the short run torture MIGHT help... but in the long run it HARMS us for sure...
YoungIvyScholar 7 months ago
I Believe This Was A Video Clip Of CBS News' Face The Nation With Bob Schieffer's Report On McCain: Torture Investigation Would Be "Serious Mistake" On Sunday Morning, August 30, 2009.
radiodj1520 10 months ago
first, do some investigating,
and dig into the past, what happened,
where did you go wrong, what can we do today,
so it doesnt ever happen again, and to learn from your mistakes,
right? Learn from your mistakes.
78booby 1 year ago
the only thing that will get out of control will be the criminals running for the border if they do prosecute torture.. the biggest mistake will be not prosecuting the criminals.. if it would be a mistake to prosecute them then why do we bring charges against anyone in the court system ? justice is justice no one is above the law
xadam2dudex 2 years ago
One of many recycled aipac neocons
More bloodthirsty israeli paid propaganda
ryanshaunkelly 2 years ago
Kudos to McCain for being honest about the fact that it wasn't "enhanced interrogation" but rather torture.
Ezer101 2 years ago
he wanted sarah palin as his vice pres,,lol.
shawnandre01 2 years ago
If torture works then why don't we use it in the court systems. Instead of going through the legals system lets just torture people until we get confessions. I guarantee our conviction rate would be 100%. Thats because people will say what ever you want them to say to get you to stop torturing them. Hell McCain did. Does that make the video taped confession McCain gave while being tortured, credible intel? Was it true? No he did it to get them to stop. Torture is torture plain and simple...
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
Dear McCain,
I am sorry that you feel this way. You were tortured by the North Vietnamese when you were POW there. You understood the "deep" hatre down in your heart. Therefore, how can you turn your back to those responsible for torture - you should tell everyone that whoever response should be investigated and sent to prison. War Crime is crime. No one is saying that all CIA operatives are guilty and preciely for this reason - this should be clear Once and for All.
Gnikcufuoy 2 years ago
for your information many people did die whilst being interrogated, and there are many rapes that were reported in iraq, some of them were American women by american soldiers. there are many articles about it.
and as far as i know Obama is born in Hawaii with is a state, and your saviour, John Mccain was born in Panema, which is in South America the last time i checked
GhettoChu 2 years ago
I don't know of anybody who died from being interrogated and rape is already illegal. There are rapes in all wars and the military court marshals rapists! This is about water-boarding, slapping and yelling at captured terrorists all that other shit you are talking about is illegal!
It's not just about where he was born it's also about the fact that he was a British citizen at birth and a subject of British jurisdiction! A valid legal argument can be made that he isn't a natural born citizen!
StinkingHombre 2 years ago
legal? how bout wrong is wrong. it wasnt illegal for the predatory lendors to take advantage of people. doesnt make it right. torturing people is wrong. and it is counter productive. but I see you are a birther, so you are allergic to logic
mkrulic517439 2 years ago 2
First off the "birther" comment; there is a mountain of evidence suggesting Obama isn't eligible for the Presidency, especially his being subject to British legal jurisdiction at birth! Second off; eviscerating the intelligence gathering capabilities of the CIA is only going to weaken national security! "Harsh interrogations" will be necessary to win the war. After you have asked then nicely, politely and courteously over milk and cookies and they tell you to go fuck yourself, whatcha gonna do?
StinkingHombre 2 years ago
Torture is wrong. Yes.
But so is flying a plane into a sky scrapper.
Torture is only wrong if you are torturing without a necessity.
Just like Killing.
Killing is wrong, but in the right circumstances, Killing is the lesser of 2 evils, and it becomes a necessity.
cr9527 2 years ago
"Torture is wrong. Yes."
then end of f'in story. if its wrong its wrong. something else being wrong does not make this right. two wrongs dont make a right.
none of this is necessary. it doesnt work. even if it did we should not do it. just like land mines work but we should not use them.
mkrulic517439 2 years ago
so, killing is wrong. Yes?
Then what would you do if that is the only choice to save your family?
Torture works, though not effectively, it works.
Nothing is as black and white as you make it to be. There are always grey areas.
cr9527 2 years ago
actually all the experts say torture does not work. the expert w/ the fbi that was interogating one of them was getting credible intelligence before the torture began. thats when he clamed up. experts will tell you that if you want intelligence you do not torture. if you want a confession you torture. but bush did not hire experts. he hired psychologists who had zero experience in interogation. sound like a bush move?
long story short. whatever you gain in the short term you loose in the long
mkrulic517439 2 years ago 5
Torture works.. in hollywood.
Everyone who actually studies torture though knows it's unreliable and counterproductive, not only to the interrogation but also to anything political.
and as a last choice to save your family? that's a pretty slippery slope to justify torture, especially when it clearly doesn't work.
Gelandri 2 years ago
he recognizes that the torture that took place violated the Geneva convention/convention against torture...
think of how serious of a crime torture is...fuckin torture...
and he dosent think that a country that claims it respects the rule of law should investigate and prosecute illegality because it was in the past? arent all crimes?
to me, that is not a moral position...
and is that not the true type of "political motivation" that cheney keeps referring to? the willingness to overlook?
EnhancementSmoker 2 years ago
I have a question to ask these torture supporters, since they seem so happy to ask. What would happen if, in the middle of the night, you were forcibly taken from your home, taken to a room with little more than a toilet. You were then beaten and given "advanced interrogation" techniques over and over, occasionally asked questions about something you have little or no knowledge about. And this happens for weeks and weeks (although it'd be hard to tell, you wouldn't know what a day was) and...
leftwingextremist 2 years ago
...you never see any friendly faces again, oyu dont know how your loved ones are doing or whether the're worried for you. Would you be happy that this is a good thing? that maybe some terrorists might be suffering? or that some information might be found that might help? We are a civilised society for a reason, we do not compromise on barbarous acts. The moment we do, then we cease to become a civilised society
leftwingextremist 2 years ago
and I have to ask, how many innocent people do we have to torture and imprison before it becomes wrong?
leftwingextremist 2 years ago
to leftwingextremist
How many innocent people must be killed by terrorist attacks before it becomes right?
You see, I too can play the strawman game.
cr9527 2 years ago
Since when did I ever state that terrorism is right or ever justified? And how is my analysis of torture supporters' position, inaccurate? They advocate the torture of possibly innocent people.
My question is valid, would you happily sit in your prison cell and accept the "advanced interrogation" knowing that someone guilty might be aswell? Alternatively, would you let your loved ones or friends sit in a cell with the thought they might be being subjected such treatment? Dont sell your rights.
leftwingextremist 2 years ago
You didn't, and neither did anyone state that those who are tortured are innocent, or known to be innocent.
It is the same argument for Capital Punishment, Non-Lethal police weaponry, etc etc.
This isn't a black and white question. Depending on the situation, it may be right, or wrong.
cr9527 2 years ago
I'm not normally the one to subscribe to absolute morality, being a rationally thinking (or i try to be) atheist. But I don't think it's only about morality but about how much power we are willing to give the government, and the effects of allowing them to do this kind of thing.
If America wants to be the beacon of righteousness then it has to do away with these barbaric acts. We cannot win this "war" through firepower alone. Terrorists aren't evil, they are simply the victims of those that...
leftwingextremist 2 years ago
...use their superstiition and irrationality to control them. And their desperation is what feeds them, and there are many moderates who simply wish to get on with their lives. But acts of torture, and illegal wars make us lose our credibility in their eyes. We win this war when we can isolate those that insight these kinds of fundamentalist ideas. And if it means we need to be bigger and to reign our anger, then so be it. The only end this war is seeing is filling the pockets of profiteers.
leftwingextremist 2 years ago
we shouldn't look back?? say that to those tortured and thier families hoping for justice.
bobgrimly 2 years ago
who gives a shit about those tortured bastards...or their families...
i feel no sympathy for them...
but im ashamed of what was done in my name...torture is against the law and should be prosecuted...
EnhancementSmoker 2 years ago
you sicken me greatly. Compassion and empathy are two of mankinds greatest virtues and you lack both.
bobgrimly 2 years ago
John McCain is in the CFR which means he is ass-fucking the country with Globalist Bullshit. He is no different from Obama, or Bush, or Clinton, or Reagan. All of them were traitors. Al Quaida is a joke and so is the war on terror. There is no Al Quaida. Al Quaida is a CIA false flag. Fuck McCain!
davidameyers 2 years ago
ya 9/11 was a conspiracy and so was the moon landing, and every other major event go kill yourself now and spare us faggot. fuck you
ProToolsLA 2 years ago
Sorry Dick Head, but my engineering background has damned me with critical thinking. As far as 911 goes, look up the melting point of steel and the highest possible heat attainable by jet fuel. Combine that with the fact that only 3 steel buildings ever collapsed as a result of fire and all 3 happened on the same day. As for the moon: There is no transparrant material even today that can withstand the teperature variation of light and shadow on the moon. Both ARE bullshit for stupid folk like u
davidameyers 2 years ago
i wish he was prez
samsep8 2 years ago
McCain would have given Obama a greater victory if not for Palin. It is no wonder McCain lost with these statements.
oilhammer04 2 years ago
We should not look back? What crime is ever prosecuted in the future or in real-time?
If the truth is on their side and the finding nothing will hurt the current administration, what are they afraid of?
acedredayz 2 years ago
No the real mistake is the US!
The US has been torturing/raping children as young as 8 years of age for centuries.
We have men that will protect the rights of evil men over the rights of cowardly men who hide under special priviledge or in bunkers with the help of shills spinsters & ignorant people.
Obamas set up to take the fall
Its the Jewish/White oligarchy that has ruined Africa, poisoned America, bombed Asia & occupies the World.
Why hate Obama?
He is just a tool like you & me..
TruthBlade12 2 years ago
Hmmmm the only thing missing is Rockefeller's hand up this puppets ass
BeautifulGirlByDana 2 years ago
very well said, wachaufeuropa
tanimashraf 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
politicians and celebrities are messed up these days... they do some stupid stuff.. but its sooo funny! lol seen on that site whoopsamerica
hellorules2 2 years ago
"Suicide of the West?"
"
Years from now, . . . CIA agents dealing with hardened terrorists will have to worry about whether what they do to get information out of terrorists to save American lives will make the agents themselves liable to prosecution that can destroy their careers and ruin their lives.
. . . getting other people killed so that you can feel puffed up about yourself is profoundly immoral. So is betraying the country you took an oath to protect.
"
-- Thomas Sowell
TylerNull 2 years ago
Finally, a true American on Face the Nation.
mtocrazy 2 years ago
Let us not forget, Venezuala once held democratic elections too. Fidel was at one time an elected official
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
yup. So is hamas, hezbollah (kind of) and virtually every other world dictator.
even hitler was elected by the people. what did he say..."how fortunate it is for governments that the people do not think."
or something of the sort. the two most deadly attributes of a nation: hate, and obscene idealism. hate leads to genocide, rape, and murder, and obscene idealism leads to self-loathing, romanticizing terrorism, justifying an opponents actions, and surrendering to an imminent threat.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
"...obscene idealism leads to self-loathing, ROMANTICIZING TERRORISM, justifying an opponents actions, and surrendering to an imminent threat."
What an absolute load of crap. Where do you get this bullshit?
freedomsfart 2 years ago
observation.
look at europe. already making plans under the table for a volatile middle east and nuclear iran.
when countries start revolving the individual, and not the country, not the constitution - problems arise. twists in perception, moral flexibility, and compromising basic humanity to avoid conflict, confrontation...or *gasp* pissing other nations off.
ohh, the horror!
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
Venezuela STILL holds democratic elections. This said, Bush tried to stage a coup, and install a rightwing dictator, but failed. Most of what you hear about Venezuela in the US media is bullshit.
Castro was NOT elected. He overthrew the Batista dictatorship (American backed).
A good number of dictators have been installed by Americans, most notably, the Shah of Iran, Pinochet in Chile, and Suharto in Indonesia. Suharto was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Okay with US.
freedomsfart 2 years ago
You are correct. President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela offered one million barrels of oil and 5 million dollars in aid to the United States after Hurricane Katrina This aid was rejected by the State Department. State-owned Petróleos de Venezuela, the parent company of Citgo Petroleum Corporation, has also pledged a $2 million donation for hurricane aid. Two mobile hospital units were also offered, but were declined. The gulf coast is still struggling to recover 4yrs later...
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
yes, why would the USA want to accept a lousy 5 million from a corrupt dictatorship who has verbally wished us harm? a man who says he is fighting "US imperialism" and hangs out with the dbag of Iran? not to mention expressing solidarity with those who fight israel...XD
u r implying that the gulf is somehow worse off because the usa failed to accept hugo's oil-blood? r u insane?
seriously?
this is the kind of idealism im talking about. to even remotely put chavez in a positive light. LOLOL
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
When someone extends their hand in an attempt to do the right thing you don't spit in their face. And you wonder why he has resentment for this country? 4yrs later and the coast is still struggling to recover at the time those resources would've proven useful. For over 2mos. we had no power the only hospital was a tent and they are still finding bodies to this day washed up in the woods and under abandoned buildings. Those resources could've been used. He called Bush Satan not the U.S.
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
Chavez was not attempting to do the right thing. the USA would never accept aid from a 3rd world dictator who has wished our allies destruction, aligns himself with islamic theocrats, and demands an end to the American war and calls for a unified struggle against western imperialism.
this is exactly the point. this emotional-based logic, obsession with character and unrealistic (not to mention naive) understanding world politics put people like Chavez in power.
and u romanticize it. LOLOLOL
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
ImNeil, Chavez is not a dictator. He's leftist, sure, and that's why Bush had such problems with him. At the UN, Chavez called Bush the devil, and to many millions around the world he was. Bush has the blood of hundreds of thousands on his hands.
And so far as US imperialism goes, sorry to burst your bubble, but America has a long and disgraceful history of meddling in Central and South America.
This has nothiing to do with your 'idealism' nonsense. It is but a statement of facts.
freedomsfart 2 years ago
nope, chavez is a dictator, and if u knew anything ud know he passed a law (all by himself) that effectively makes him president indefinitely. he shut down private media, nationalized the oil industry, and took over any business that threatened his way. also suspected of calling kill orders to unpopular journalists.
and no, this american imperialism bullshit is PURE leftist propaganda, designed to undermine the influence of the united states and prop up dicks like Chavez into the spotlight.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
Sorry, wrong again. Chavez held a referendum (awfully democratic for a dictator) proposing that his term be extended and his powers broadened, but it didn't pass.
And look at all of the things Bush did without consulting the people at all - warrantless wiretaps and the suspension of habeas corpus, secret prisons and that old chestnut - torture.
Meanwhile, nationalizing oil companies is not dictatorial - it just pisses off Americans.
American imperialism is BS? Banana republics?
freedomsfart 2 years ago
bullshit. chavez passed a law early 2009 that ENDED term limits, meaning he can remain in power indefinitely. he also nationalized the oil industry, took over the media, and sent kill orders to unpopular journalists. i like how u totally skipped that, the left wishful thinking. always need a 3rd world dictator to hold ur hand and do ur laundry.
yes, american imperialism is bullshit. complete chomsky ramble to pimp whoever says "fuck america." opportunists at best.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
The reason I skipped your 'kill order' statement is because you said he was 'suspected' of the crime. Suspected by who? Fox and Friends? I think it's funny how in your next post, 'suspected' has become 'and sent kill orders' Oh my, suddenly it's become a fact!
freedomsfart 2 years ago
venezula has one of the highest murder rates in the world. hugo chavez has been ACCUSED by many of killing unpopular journalists. seems in line with taking over the media, which a free liberal like urself seems to be very comfortable wtih.
russia has killed hundreds of journalists, but most dont reach the news because...hey, russia dominates the media as well.
cant couch in any criticism of ur jesus-dictator as fox propaganda. ur infantile obsession with poor leadership is truly hilarious.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
That's the best you can come up with?
"infantile obsession with poor leadership"
Where is the infantile? That would be your previous post.
Where is the obsession? That would also be any number of your posts
Hey, wait as second here! Shouldn't you be advocating torture?
freedomsfart 2 years ago
yes, infantile obsession.
infantile obsession and glorification of despots like chavez, iranian pricks, defending the indefensible.
no one is advocating torture, only reality. clearly that does not exist in canda.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
I haven't glorified anyone, dolt, I just think it's hilarious when Americans abhor one dictator while getting all warm and fuzzy with another, even going so far as to hold hands.
freedomsfart 2 years ago 3
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freedomsfart 2 years ago
A coup? yea just like Ahmedinjad was elected right? Its called a rigged election.
Unless you take the word of Castro?
And I meant Chavez on the other comment, thats the reason I said Venezuela
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
Yes, a coup. It had nothing to do with any election. It probably wasn't reported in the US because it failed.
freedomsfart 2 years ago
And you obviously took castro's word for it. He was the main one hollering coup
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
WTF are you talking about?
freedomsfart 2 years ago
do you think the Ahmadinijad election was democratic too?
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
The election was seriously flawed, by all accounts. Hence, the violent protests.
freedomsfart 2 years ago
the election wasn't seriously flawed, there was no election.
anyone who has a basic understanding of how the iranian government works will know that the supreme leaderand the mullahs control everything. the military, the presidency, oil, all of it. they decide who has power.
and the protests weren't violent, the reaction was violent. thousands of protestors still reside in iranian jails, having their genitals ripped off and summarily executed.
no one cares tho.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
No, there was an election for the presidency.
And I agree, the mullahs are the ultimate power. I would never deny that Iran is a theocratic dictatorship. Still, women, in particular, enjoy more freedom there than they do in America's buddy Saudi Arabia.
freedomsfart 2 years ago
no, women r treated like shit there.
women becomes a legal adult at 7, men is 9. women can be executed for simple things, like flirting with another man, sex outside of marriage, sodomy, homosexuality..u know.
and the tricky thing is, u cant execute a women that is a virgin. so the iranian guard marries the woman, gang rapes her, and then EXECUTES her.
cause then its totally kosher.
oh, and they also stone homosexuals. and bankroll hamas and hezbollah
very progressive, u know.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
Still, it's better than where Bush's hand-holding buddies come from, where a woman can't leave home without being escorted by a male relative, can't drive a car, can't have a bank account. And is subject to similar punishments as are meted out in Iran. Still, Iranian women can become doctors, other types of professional, politicians, and so on
freedomsfart 2 years ago
who cares? saudi arabia is not threatening the allies with nuclear war.
virtually all the gulf states and arab dicks r despotic, so there is really no point saying this one is better than the other. the USA isnt the only country who buys oil from the arabs u know.
supposedly, its better we have leverage..over, say...Russia or China.
of course, that doesnt cross ur mine. make love not war, LOL.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
Um... duh... 14 of the 19 hijackers on 911 were Saudi nationals. Saudi Arabia finances the Madrasses, the schools where fanatics are educated to hate America and Isreal and all infidels.
If a terrorist ever does detonate a nuke in the US, he'll probably have a Saudi connection.
I'm amazed at the shallowness of your thinking. This is like a discussion with Bush.
freedomsfart 2 years ago
uh? im not disputing anything about saudi arabia this is not limited to saudi arabia. qatar, UAE, saudi arabia have all be implicated in paying protection money to al-qaeda since 2003, even tho they r fighting in the "war on terror"
regardless, iran is still a principal threat. it is actively developing nuclear weapons, and is an open support of hamas, hezbollah, and trains much of the iraqi insurgency
the middle east has institutionalized antisemitism and bigotry, it is not limited to SA
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
I'm sure if you asked the average citizen of Tehran who the principal threat was, they'd say the US. And for good reason.
And please (this is a good one) what is wrong with training the Iraqi insurgency?
freedomsfart 2 years ago
After all, whose country is it?
freedomsfart 2 years ago
whose country is what?
Iran's? Well, technically - I consider the Shah the truly ruler of Iran. I have yet to recognize the Islamic dicktators as the true leaders.
making active threats against allies, bankrolling hamas and hezbollah, training and advising the iraqi insurgency, and finalizing a nuclear weapons program is disturbing enough.
but canadian citizens, members of the free world - the western world, to romanticize this, justify it under "sovereignty" is nothing less than insanity.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
"I consider the Shah the truly ruler of Iran"
Why doesn't that surprise me. The Shah was a brutal dictator (at least he's not Chavaz, right?) who was installed by the CIA after the overthrow of a legitimate government. This was back in the 50s.
Typical American, divide the third world up into good dictators and bad dictators - then preach freedom.
freedomsfart 2 years ago
Actually, ImNeil, you kind of fucked yourself with that Shah comment, eh?
freedomsfart 2 years ago
A brutal dictator? No, he modernized the country, he was a friend of the West, and for the most part got along well with Israel and Europe.
However Brutal he might have been, it didnt even remotely compare to the Islamic republic.
The Shah did not stone 8 years, execute women sodomy, and throw homosexuals in jails.
The Shah had 1,000 political prisoners, the Islamic republic had 100,000.
Of course, u prefer enemies of America to bei n power.
Self-loathing Faggot.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
ImNeil, for all of your incoherent babble about 'obscene idealism' leading misguided people to be appologists for dictators, you are an appologist for the Shah of Iran.
This is laughable.
Your 'friend of the West' was installed by the CIA. That's okay with you.
Everything you said in your prior, inarticulate, posts is proved erronious by your embrace of the Shah.
"Self-loathing Faggot"
Represents the pinnacle of your intellectual powers.
Fucking with your mind is fun.
freedomsfart 2 years ago
hat's what our CIA does - protect America's interest.
ur flirtation with a 3rd world dictator, who's mannerism is strikingly similar to Barack Obama, the personality cult, whoring the media, one country under one man, makes me laugh.
I am an apologist for the shah of Iran. The shah had a strong modernization policy, recognized Israel, and merged the tradionalists classes. It was the closest thing to secularism outside of Israel in the ME. u cant stand that. u like enemies of the west.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
"I'm an apologist for the Shah of Iran"
The CIA installed the Shah after overthrowing a democratically elected government. But, hey, that's okay with you.
"u cant stand that. u like enemies of the West"
Nice writing. And no, what I like is democracy. Your hypocrisy is breathtaking. You couldn't give a rat's ass about freedom in foreign countries.
"enemies of the West"
Shouldn't you say enemies of 'the Homeland"?
Have any freedom fries lately?
freedomsfart 2 years ago
yes, that's okay with me. Britain wanted their oil, there was questions of whether or not the "democratically-elected" government was leaning towards the Communist narrative.
Hamas is a "democratically-elected" government. Doesn't mean we should support it.
No, u don't love freedom. You love those who conspire against the West, and will gladly pimp those who incite hatred, racism, and nuclear war as long as they r on the other end of "western imperialism"
dont pass urself off as a moralist
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
"You love those who conspire against the West"
What exactly is 'the West'? Would that include your friend, France? Your statement is so devoid of any meaning (or truth), that it's, well, just pathetic.
And simply because I think your reasoning stupid and take pains to point this out to you - I somehow love those who hate my country. You are a fucking moron.
"dont pass urself off as a moralist"
I don't have to. I am vastly morally superior to you right wing nut jobs.
freedomsfart 2 years ago 2
West, as in Western civilization. As in freedom, as in consistent with our foreign policy and national sovereignty objectives.
keep the name calling.
yes, those who claim to be moral supremacists tend to be the most morally flexible.
ur absurd defense of the Islamic republic, Hugo Chavez...and let me guess, the Khmer Rouge (Chomsy's favorite) all because they defy western imperialism...LOLZ.
islamists love people like u. u will don a burka the moment they demand tolerance, haha. dhimmi!
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
You blather the same bullshit over and ober. I'm bored with you.
freedomsfart 2 years ago
im sure if u asked the nazis, what their principal threat was, they'd say the Jews. I'm sure if you asked the arabs, what their principal threat was, they'd say the Jews.
A country that is run by certified-holocaust deniers, operates a media that is less reliable than the Onion and puts "Death to Israel/USA" in their constitution, cannot be taken seriously.
What is wrong with training the Iraqi insurgency? Oh, I don't know - the recent 101 Iraqi civilians murdered by the insurgency. FAIL
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
How about the hundreds of thousands killed as a result of the American INVASION and OCCUPATION of a country that posed NO THREAT! And don't give me any Bush bullshit. I smell oil.
And if you'd asked the Nazis what their principal threat was, they would have said the USSR. Why are you so obsessed with Jews?
And finally, a country whose people sing about rockets and bombs in their national anthem is just plain weird.
FAIL? (talk about infintile)
freedomsfart 2 years ago
More like millions. So what? United States invaded a country under bogus terms. Regardless of whether or not Bush knew Iraq had no WMDs, it doesnt change the fact that the country is in a civil war, and thousands are dying because the Saudis, Kuwait, Qatar, and the UAE continue to pay hundreds of millions to Al-Qaeda for protection.
u seem to be obsessed with the indefensible, the islamic despots, yet have no issue blaming America for everything.
Just move to Saudi Arabia and fuck an infant.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
You'll start siding with Republicans when they betray the nation with as much gusto as do Democrats.
Aside from the treason and betrayal of exposing CIA agents and classified war programs to the enemy during war, the Democrats' attempt to criminalize the act of national defense will have a strong negative affect on future defenders of America.
TylerNull 2 years ago
Dick Chenney IS Dr. Stranglove... if you don't know who he is google.. Doctor Strangeglove...
MacKane is just following Republican Party line... as usual!
Pkr 2 years ago
Ignorance is a word also. Terrorism is just one of the few words he can spell. All I hear is that the way to win the war on terror is to "crush it". We could nuke the middle east completely off the map and idiots believe that will end terrorism. Where is the line when it comes to fighting terrorist acts and committing them?
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
yes, crush it. find it, calculate, plan, and crush it.
u ask urself, do the ends justify the means? if the answer is yes, then yes. carpet bombing a continent does not justify the means.
the middle east is not the center of islamic terrorism. terrorism is more or less a manifestation of an already extremely backwards and archaic culture, but continues to be exported and supplied because of a certain necessary and globally-demanded commodity....OIL.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
I brought it up as threat from an emp. This can be a fairly small blast from a ship, as both N kor, and Iran have trained for. ICBMs are not as substantial of a threat, those allow time for counter measures. For being in the AF, you don't seem to know JackS about these sort of things.
All it takes is a small disturbance in the geomagnetic field to fry most of our electronics, even high solar activity can cause it, let alone an EMP
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
How would those ships you speak of get within range to launch such an attack and you still haven't said how they would get their nuke. A more sensible scenario would be to bribe illegal immigrants or Americans for that matter to spread a biological or chemical attack and use prevailing winds to take out an entire city without ever being detected. Being N.E.M.S. certified those are the types of scenarios we train for. Not Nukes from terrorists because the possibility of obtaining them is minute
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
International waters. Ships have the right to be close enough to carry out such an attack. All they need is 5 crew members with an agenda, and a very small nuke. Portable launch stations are assembled in a matter of minutes and a missle could be airborne before we could even react. NK and Iran are running training drills on this, have been for years.
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
exactly.
and our fleets in the gulf and med. are highly exposed. pentagon released simulation assessments pitting our ships and iranians surface-to-sea missiles...and it was worse than pearl harbor.
and lets not forget our highly exposed bases in iraq. rather ironic, as much as the arabs hate israel, saudi arabia, kuwait, and jordan all want the jews to bomb iran.
they know once iran gets nuclear, their oil-monopoly will be a ticking clock. they would have to submit to iran.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
You idiots do not have a complete braincell between you. Lets all hide the world is out to get us not because we unjustly invade a country or torture people or claim that we are better than them and their lives and traditions have no significance but because they hate our freedoms... That is lunacy. As long as we have idiots that believe like that you will have terrorists that want to keep that sort of influence away from its homeland and citizens. You two have been eating lead paint chips...
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
Oh thats right, radical islamics dont think were great satin, they're just playing around. They really wanted to give us flowers and candy on 9-11, their pilots just sucked right?
You want to talk about putting ur life on the line? Yes I've been into 2 structure fires, one when the fire dept wouldn't go in. I made the newspapers too. I dropped a woman from a second story fully involved house fire, and she broke her ankle. I wasn't on the clock though, just doing "my job" as a citizen
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
Well go in a couple thousand more then talk to me.Once you serve in 2 conflicts in the military as I did then you earn the right to denounce my patriotism. What paper was you in? I would like to read the story. I started out in a volunteer dept and still serve as a member on that dept as well. I have also been to New York and worked alongside East Rockaway F.D. in Long Island after 9/11 and didn't receive a dime I was simply helping my fellow firefighters. Get a life loser...
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
Send it to me next time, don't just post it to the vid and run away. The only reason I checked back on the forum was some other guy hit a comment. Looser? Come on, 3 college degrees, I could have a beaurocratic job if I wanted. Hopefully you start recieving IOU's the more time you spen on the computer while on the clock
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
I'm home now you moron. I don't live at the station. Although i only live 2 blocks away. You say you were a firefighter how do you approach a burning car? What is the first thing you do upon arrival to a structure fire? What is a SCBA? What tool is used to breach doors? Don't google it hurry now...
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
Self contained breathing aparatus idiot, Others vary by departmental policy, besides the only buring car I ever approached was a brake fire. Remember? I went to college, only worked 72 hrs a month
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
You only approached a brake fire? You actually fought a fire without being trained how to approach one or the first thing that needs to be done at a structure fire. Your a liar no dept would let you near a fire without proper training first. I went to college too and served on a volunteer dept. When I was a jr. firefighter at age 15 i knew the answers to these questions. thats why I chose them any one with minimal training should be able to answer them and its universal it doesn't vary by dept.
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
I never said I "fought a fire" I said I went into 2 structure fires, I wasn't even with the department, nore were they in the same jurisdiction. I was quite bored with the whole FF thing. It was also a rural department, and I volunteered as an Intern to see if I even wanted to do it. It is a program in liue of a silly fire academy so nope, no formal training.
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
Even volunteers have to go through training at the state academy as per VFIS rules. Which is the insurance company that insures volunteer depts or you would never be allowed to suit up in your bunker gear. You just lied about the whole thing. That says alot for any so called facts you try to put fourth in a debate. What is fact and whats not fact? You became bored with firefighting but you have yet to tell us what you do. Don't bother its probably a lie too. You have lost all credibility...
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
McCain is an old fool with Bush's shit on his nose from sniffing Bush's Butt. What would he really know? I guess he showed how fast he would give up secrets when the North Vietnamese poked him in the eye.
keithOlbermannMSNBC 2 years ago
Well, Well, I see your the king of the idiots and the #1 Obama worshipper. And you have the WORST SHOW IN THE WORLD!
MrLordGawd 2 years ago
If there was no torture as I've heard Cheney claim, then he shouldn't have anything to worry about.
DillonX 2 years ago
This is just another demobrat retard attempt by ahomo bin laden to get us off the healthcare crap.Before you liberal deadheads start running your mouth.
1: The ottoman empire was the previous nazi-type political system, before the rise of hitler.If they hang a women for minor thing. All you female dogs,and fags better think twice before selling us out to hate mongering muslims.
PatriotTexas 2 years ago
No JC, I don't think the VC cut McCain's balls off unless his kids are adopted, but you're right he does act like it.
GeoFlynx 2 years ago
just investigate - if Cheney's guilty - HANG HIM HIGH...
if he's not ... let the bastard go.
DillonX 2 years ago
And what exactly would be wrong with a war on evil?Why not a war on evil? No one has a problem with a war on poverty. Isn't poverty evil? J in a G would argue--I'll bet--that poverty causes war. So why not a war on evil (which exactly equals a war on poverty, right)?
What about a war on child abuse--also evil?
Damn I'm brilliant!!
See J in a G and Mr Fart, I can confuse an issue every bit as well as you can.
A war on evil...indeed. What a wonderful idea. I'm glad I thought of it....
reckingcrew75 2 years ago
Why is it you and soberanddisorderly show up at the same time are you connected at the ass? Your both idiots who make asinine comments that only confirms your stupidity. Any of you watch any more tv to get more outrageous scenarios you want to put out? I wasted far to much time on you last night and tonight I'm on call so I don't have time for your adolescent antics. Grow up...
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
Anyone think that if we would've used enhanced interrogation when Clinton had Osama Bin Laden in custody, he might have been a bit more reserved in letting him go?
Oh yes, and BTW, Clinton did use such techniques, not on Osama, but there is record of harsh interrogation on others. Should we arrest him too?
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
Clinton never had Bin Laden in custody. He launched air strikes against him in retaliation for Bin Ladens attacks on our embassies in Africa but couldn't get backing from the Republicans to go in on the ground. They cried "Wag the Dog" he's going to war unjustly to take the attention off Monica Lewinsky. They also said Bin Laden posed no significant threat to the U.S.. Peddle your propaganda somewhere else...
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
actually, we had osama bin laden in 1996. he was in sudan. sudan agreed to extradite him to Saudi Arabia. the CIA sprinted to Jeddah to pick him up. SA refused to extradite him.
u want to know y? because saudi arabia is not our ally, they bankroll al-qaeda and use our petrodollars to pay for the genocides in darfur, warlords in somalia, LeT in pakistan, iraqi insurgency, etc..etc..
but it doesnt matter. oil is far more important, and that sad thing is....it's true.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
We never had him. Capturing Osama bin Laden has been an objective of the United States government since the presidency of Bill Clinton. Shortly after the September 11 attacks it was revealed that President Clinton had signed a directive authorizing the CIA to apprehend bin Laden and bring him to the United States to stand trial after the 1998 United States embassy bombings in Africa.
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
it has never been an objective, not if it compromised our relationships with the oil tit.
why do u think we allow this arab bigots and trolls, who r responsible for some of the worst genocides of the last decade, walk all over israel?
because they have the oil. we will be indifferent to the darfur genocide, the muslim warlords in somalia, the pakistan genocide of bangaldesh, LeT, hezbollah, hamas and will continue to support those who sponsor the above groups.
it's pointless really.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
; if taking bin Laden alive was deemed impossible, then deadly force was authorized. On August 20, 1998, 66 cruise missiles launched by United States Navy ships in the Arabian Sea struck bin Laden's training camps near Khost in Afghanistan, narrowly missing him by a few hours. In 1999 the CIA, together with Pakistani military intelligence, had prepared a team of approximately 60 Pakistani commandos to infiltrate Afghanistan to capture or kill bin Laden,
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
but the plan was aborted by the 1999 Pakistani coup d'état; in 2000, foreign operatives working on behalf of the CIA had fired a rocket-propelled grenade at a convoy of vehicles in which bin Laden was traveling through the mountains of Afghanistan, hitting one of the vehicles but not the one bin Laden was in
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
In 2000, prior to the September 11 attacks, Paul Bremer characterized the Clinton administration as "correctly focused on bin Laden", while Robert Oakley actually criticized their "obsession with Osama". I will agree with you to some extent about how oil plays a major role in our military efforts in the middle east and your right it's sad. Before naysayers start inundating me with comments wiki Osama Bin Laden because that is where this info comes from.
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
wow wikipedia - the world's most unreliable encylopedia. of course robert oakley pimps clinton, he was part of the administration. u think he will admit failures?
our relationship with these countries is totally backwards.u cant have a "war on terror" if ur allies r known sponsors of terrorism
we've sold 200+ billion of weapons - planes, tanks, guns, etc to the arabs, that have been found in the hands of al-shabaab, arab islamists in darfur, LeT, hamas, hezbollah, etc.
torture is a non-issue
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
That is not the only source. Just because they have the info does not make it false . Where did your facts come from? He was never captured by the U.S.? So where can we research your claims?
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
wikipedia is a joke.
books, lots and lots of books. or pentagon assessments and reports, they have it on their website.
wikipedia is hardly reliable, and scholars and teachers will confirm this.
it's written by people like u and me, not academics. just douchebags.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
Try the library of congress they have the same facts. Or do you just dispute everything that doesn't agree with you. You still haven't given a specific unbiased source that confirms we had Bin Laden and let him go.
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
no, ur just too much of an idiot to understand how wikipedia works.
it is not scholarly, it is not academic. it is written by youtube morons and point of view warriors who wish to push their perspective.
wikipedia is easy, its candy-coated, and it takes little effort. its pure garbage, worse than fox news.
we didnt have bin laden, sudan did. saudi arabia refused to extradite him.
google Clinton Let Bin Laden Slip Away and Metastasize and u will find a LAtimes article confirming.
idiot
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
The author of your article,Mansoor Ijaz, a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, and chairman of a New York-based investment company. He was also employed by Fox news. Wow thats an unbiased source.Several sources dispute Ijaz's claim, including the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks on the United States (the 9-11 Commission) which concluded in part Sudan's minister of defense, Fatih Erwa, has claimed that Sudan offered to hand Bin Ladin over to the United States.
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
council on foreign relations is the premier bipartison thinktank in the United States. jean kirkpatrick everyone is anyone is on that committee.
who cares if he did interviews for fox news. big fucking deal. he is a valuable source, an expert, and not a liberal apologist.
who cares about the 9/11 commission? it was written by bush cronies to justify the war in iraq, idiot.
please read a book.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
The Commission has found no credible evidence that this was so. Ambassador Carney had instructions only to push the Sudanese to expel Bin Ladin. Ambassador Carney had no legal basis to ask for more from the Sudanese since, at the time, there was no indictment out-standing.
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
Wiki is probably the easiest read for most not many people will bother to read through all the executive orders and amendments and legal jargon but wiki has the basics condensed down version for the general public to read.
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
Bin Laden's security coordinator was captured in 96 and Saudi Arabia refused to extradite him not Bin Laden looks my Wiki's facts are more credible than yours...
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
You know what else is on WIKI?
It says that Plaime and her hubby were covert ops. Just like the left was saying until CIA declassified their docs used in the Libby case, which completely contridict it. What a joke, I'd love to see you use wiki as a credable source in any scholarly work. Only retards believe Wiki, I could go on right now and write just about anything I want on wiki. If it even sounds marginally believable, the left ul buy it hook line and sinker
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
What would you do if a nuke was in a major city?WHAT WOULD YOU DO? WHAT WOULD YOU DO? Only retards use former episodes of 24 to try and win a debate. Nothing on wiki is true including what they say about George W. and Regan nothing... I also gave the Library of Congress and The 9/11 commission which was a commission appointed by Republicans but just as with tortureand healthcare you choose to ignore facts and focus on the minuscule. Wikipedia is not true. You and Doogie Howser need to grow up
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
no, this is not logical.
just because wikipedia is an unreliable source does not mean everything on it is false.
logical fallacy anyone?
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
oh you can just pick and choose the parts you want to believe at least the parts that agree with you and support your argument. Closed minded???
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
no.
no one is picking and choosing. u refuse to accept basic facts and intelligence and instead prefer mainstream drivel that pimps politicians.
this is not a matter of being close minded, u fail to realize the seriousness of the situation, and ur naivity, ahistorial, and simplistic view of this global conflict is laughable at best and disturbing at worst.
it is people like u who will surrender to intimidation, who wont act for fear of being too nasty or amoral.
cant do what has to be done
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
So the way to fight evil and tyranny is to be evil and tyrants ourselves. I don't know about that one. Torture is not right regardless of who does it. Ask anyone that has had to watch Doogie Howser that was torture in it's own right.Oil Companies and greed run this world. It is their lobbyist and special interest groups that dictate policy. No one is naive on that point but if the people that run this world face no opposition or criticism from their constituents then greed and amorality wins out
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
no, this is very silly.
not a matter of evil and tyranny, it is a matter of recognizing the enemy and not compromising strengths to meet a certain delusional idealist standard.
there is a precise method of extracting information, and clearly the CIA and other intelligence services consider various techniques r crucial in gaining intel. we arent chopping their fingers off or slicing their ears off.
either the CIA r just pure sadists ur just cant fight a war.
frictions of war, idiot.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
With all the top level AlQueda officials we have captured. Why hasn't torture yielded the whereabouts of Bin Laden? You would think that would be a question that was in the top 10 asked under torture. Fact is we need Bin Laden to perpetuate the fear and the war because we need a boogie man to keep public approval for our so called "War on Terror" If we wanted him he would be dead. He's a 7ft Muslim on dialysis how elusive can he be?
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
why would they know the whereabouts of bin laden? al qaeda is not a unified organization. it is a serious of cells, with thousands of officials...that, for the most part, do not know each other. osama bin laden skips between pakistan, afghanistan, and sudan - he doesnt tell his fellow buddies where and when he leaves.
finding one more, in a see of islamic despotism who have spent billions protecting, is very difficult.
especially when his family owns a stake in the saudi economy
read a book
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
You tell me to read a book look at your spelling in your last post. Learn how to spell. "Serious" of cells? A "see"of Islamic? Dildo!- That brings me back to my original point how do you defeat a tactic? Terrorism is a tactic. Terrorism has no de facto leader that will offer an unconditional surrender. So short of invading the world and alienating what few allies we have left. How do you win "The War on Terror" ?
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
A nuke in a major city is not as substantial of a threat as even a quite small nuke detonated in the upper atmosphere over the US.
A bomb in the magnitude of kilo tons would knock out power in the US for years. All of the generators are made overseas. Ur not a bright fellow are you?
You spend 24-7 on a YT forum, lemme guess, ur on the clock too? Typical lib
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
You brought up the Nukes last night I invite people to check out those idiotic statements of yours for themselves. as for being on the clock I am the #2 man in charge at this station all of my paperwork for the day is done and unless I receive a call I can do what ever i want. Call it a perk for years of hard work and dedication. Whats your excuse and wheres your buddy recking crew or whatever his name is. He can't be far behind you.
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
terrorism is a word.
islamic terrorism is a reality. asymetric warfare is a tactic.
terrorism is semantics. some consider israel's surgical airstrikes into hamas' huts is terrorism. others consider 8 year olds blowing themselves up as terrorism.
it's all perspective really.
u dont defeat a tactic. u recognize an enemy, and neutralize it. u cant neutralize and enemy if u spend half the time questioning ur own ability to fight. it's absurd, it's counter-productive, and dangerous.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
How about we withdraw forces, use that money to gather better intel, lull them into a false sense of security, use special forces and CIA special ops forces from around the world to target them covertly and save the U.S. billions along with saving countless soldiers lives as well as reducing the civilian casualties dramatically. If the last 8yrs have taught us anything is that an all out war does not yield the results that we want for the price paid...
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
Your not all that smart are you? Did you fall on your head from a great height?
keithOlbermannMSNBC 2 years ago
what do u think we r doing now?
iraq is secondary at the moment. iran is a premier concern.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
You people like to cry socialism. Well i don't like having my tax dollars thrown down the bottomless pit that is the war on terror. Should Bin Laden and terrorist be punished for committing such a crime ? Absolutely. Do we need to go to war to do so? Absolutely not. The last 8yrs and over 1 trillion dollars and still no Bin Laden proves that path didn't work. Only an idiot would make a wrong turn and continue on that path for 8yrs .Most reasonable sensible people would change course...
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
the war on terror has cost less than 1 trillion since 2003.
obama has spent twice that amount in 6 months.
the war in iraq and afghanistan should not eliminate the necessity and usefulness of conflict. it is likely direct action will need to be taken with iran, though i dont think the american people would be willing to enter such a war.
if that is the case, much of the world might be finished.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
Ur tax dollars? U make ur income from the private sector, your job is purely parasidic!
Chicago is a privatized department and it is one of the best in the world. Probably because it doesn't have people employed to spew uneducated statements on the internet
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
Are you saying all the firefighters who died on 9/11 were parasites? If you were ever trapped in a vehicle or a burning building I doubt you would consider them parasites. What do you do for a living that is such a value to this country. Firefighters put their lives on the line everyday for people they have never met and for you to trivialize that speaks volumes about the type of person you are. What have you done to serve this country or it's citizens?
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
Mainly just the ones who instead of working, get paid to spread lies on the internet.
Me, I've paid your annual wages a few times over. I hope every city privatizes their FD's, it will make them more efficient by trimming the less productive
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
Apparently you don't know how a Fire Dept works. I am not in a major metropolitan city so we don't have alarms going off every 5 minutes especially on a Tuesday evening. I have Captains , Lieutenants and senior firefighters who do a fine job making my job easier. I run the scene when their is a major crisis. I do the paperwork, I conduct the training, When all that is done I am simply setting around waiting for the next call. Again what is your contribution to society and America?
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
That is the problem, I used to work for a fire dept, but I volunteered. I chose not to pursue a beauracracy type of job. especially when one of our top paid administrators drove off when he was in charge of our communications. So sorry for getting pissed off when people don't do their jobs.
Afterall, we have 2+ million feds, and around 12 million state workers, our fed deficit is only 2 trillion dollars more then they earn for the year. What do I have to be pissed about?
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
"terrorism is a word"
Brilliant!
freedomsfart 2 years ago
"...and not compromising strenghts to meet a certain delusional idealist standard."
This is exactly the justification for torture a Nazi would provide. Opposition to torture is a "delusional idealist standard". And, torture is not a "strength", it is a sign of serious weakness.
"We arent chopping their fingers off or slicing their ears off."
Are you sure? What about the photos the Obama administration refused to release out of fears they would cause revulsion around the world?
freedomsfart 2 years ago
godwin's law?
the nazis used a series of fascist claims, racial superiority, endless struggle, general themes that i am not including.
compromising known-strengths, established and pre-determined abilities, to earn political points (appeasing x interest groups), pulling the moral card, going after unpopular ex-politicians etc..is counter-productive.
the end excuse is idealism, but im simply expanding why that does not exist - it is simply a platform for insanity.
friction of war, bitch.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
You tend to babble incoherently, ImNeil.
Still...
racial superiority: not quite the same, but Americans do like to think of themselves as the best.
And this is the most excellent one: endless struggle: "the long war" "the war on terror"
Both are Bush era expressions, and fit well with your fascist "claims".
"idealism is a platform for insanity" This is a truly bizarre and utterly untrue statement.
freedomsfart 2 years ago
americans are the best.
we the most powerful, most influential, and most demanding country on the face of the earth. why kid ourselves? it is insanity to even for a moment think we are below another entity. whether it be the UN, or IAEA, or Al-Qaeda.
we r the best because we choose to be the best. doesnt mean we r intellectually superior, or immortal, but recognizing our global reach and position in the world is necessary.
if we dont know who we are, how can we sustain ourselves?
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
ImNeil
Agreed my friend. It pisses me off that Hollywierd chose to destroy GI Joe with their latest plot. THe americans get killed in the beginning and the world is saved by an elite force of UN peace keepers. WHat a joke!
If Obama bows to one more dictator, or says we have an elitist complex to one more opressive nation Im going to throw my TV out the window
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
haha GI joe sucked anyways so the plot specifics didnt bother me too much.
but i truly loathe our kowtowing to the United Nations and submission to the likes of Mohamed ElBaradei and Palestinian fuckholes, while totally ignoring a nuclear North Korea, endless social spending, and cozying up to 3rd world dictators while cursing true military and cultural allies.
change it is...haha.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
Yep, the Palestian thing is pissing me off too. THey fled Israel when israle was fighting for its independence, just like the tori's fled the US when we faught Britian. We didn't let the tori's back in, they're still in Canada:) The refugees in Gaza are just that, and led by the same insane dictators that the Naggingone would argue for
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
there's more to the story, but its our obscene involvement and towing the arab line (israel is teh problem!!) that is really pissing me off. we need to adopt the kirkpatrick doctrine, which is to leave it alone. we support the jews, the arabs bankroll hamas and hezbollah, and let the conflict settle itself.
it is unfair that we have the right to fight al-qaeda and the taliban thousands of miles away, kills millions, and israel cant fight an enemy in its own backyard. bizarre.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago
We had a weapons embargo against them when they achieved independance from 5 attacking arab nations. We actually started the obscene support so that they would give the land back to Egypt and the other agressors. Israel didn't want the money, they wanted to keep the land, but we offered money and ourselves as an ally. I think Israel should've told us to piss off, and conquered the rest of the ME:) THen we wouldn't have had to go in so many times
SoberandDisorderly 2 years ago
We are not suppose to criticize the previous President or the special interest groups they appeased but criticizing the current one and dividing a country in an attempt to win a war that can't be won is asinine. If we carpet bomb the middle east you will have terror cells all over the world band together in retaliation and by the time you finish with all of them a new set will have risen to carry on the fight. We have borrowed money to fight this war who continues to pay for your ongoing war?
jesusnagstring 2 years ago
criticizing the president is one thing, calling for judicial appointments, demanding reviews, wagin lawfare against former political opponents, in attempt to further de-legitimize a certain party is not how our democracy works. Bush did not set up a cabal of journalists and government peons to service Clinton with a 1000 lawsuit on his tactical failures in Libya, and sabotaged pursuit of osama bin laden during his later term.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 2 years ago