Is Jesus God or a god? Stafford's Opening Statement 2

[raqyrose]

I watched the whole debate between these two great speakers. I was amazed how Greg Stafford made very clear that Jehovah God and Jesus Christ are not the same persona. He made a very good point on his opening statement. Loved it! He has a lot of proofs (Scriptures) to prove his understanding/ reasoning about trinity does not exist in the Bible. Excellent points.

[forthetruth101]

@raqyrose,Isn't it that trinity also teaches that God and Jesus are not the same person?JW are confuse with oneness doctrine and the trinity doctrine.I for one don't believe in the trinity per se but the essence of it's doctrine is clearly in the bible.There are a lot of verses that prove Jesus and the Father have the same God-ship because if they don't when did Jesus get his god-like attributes as JW claims? And,to whom did God show his love to if God was alone in the beginning?

[pilot4321]

Except the fact that Hebrews has been a debated text since the 2nd century! It was debated whether it would have been included in the canon!

[aservantofjehovah]

hebrews11:39NASB"And all these(the pre-Christian faithful),having gained approval through their faith,DID NOT RECEIVE what was promised,40)because God had provided something BETTER for us,so that apart from us they should not be made perfect"

[aservantofjehovah]

Revelation7:14NASB"And I said to him,'MY lord,you know'.And he said to me ,'these are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION,and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb."note that these are survivors of the great tribulation which is earthly.The great crowd at revelation 19:6 however are in heaven at the beginning of this tribulation celebrating the fall of 'Babylon the great' rev18:24 obviously not the same group

[aservantofjehovah]

matthew11:11KJV"Verily I say unto you,among them that are born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the baptist :not withstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

[robotwookie]

Stafford is obviously a smart guy. The only problem is that only low grade scholars put 'a god'. The WT had to resort to spiritists like Johannes Greber to support their translation. And they took out of context others works. Look up Wescott and Hort online (The scholars they use for their Kingdom Interlinear at The Kingdom Halls). They were spiritists and the creators of The Ghost Society. TWBATS very well knows these things but it matters not. It's no wonder Stafford Left The JW's....

[IvanDefendingTruth]

"The only problem is that only low grade scholars put 'a god'"

This is simply untrue. Anyone can easily say "only bias Trinitarian scholars put 'God'"

This proves nothing but assertions.

[robotwookie]

And this is where you are dead wrong. I have looked. The scholars who assert something in line with 'a god' are either spiritists, cultists, or generally hardcore atheists with an axe to grind with The Bible. Funny how TWBATS uses these people even though they know what these people practice. One scholar they use received the translation from spirit creatures. It was in the forward to the book. When they were found out, they even still used the book. Scholars agree. Like it or not...

[IvanDefendingTruth]

"And this is where you are dead wrong. I have looked. The scholars who assert something in line with 'God' are either spiritists, cultists, or generally hardcore atheists with an axe to grind with The Bible."

[robotwookie]

Really? That is how you are going to respond? Supply your list.

[IvanDefendingTruth]

I was making an assertion just as you did.

[robotwookie]

But my point still stands.

[IvanDefendingTruth]

I guess my does as well !

[robotwookie]

OK, if that's where this goes, so be it. Look, there is a reason I left The JW's. I didn't do it out of malice. I did it because they are false prophets who have and still do lie to there followers. They have created false doctrines that cannot be defended, i.e. 144,000, other sheep, 1914, Jesus is an angel, blood, new light and the list goes on. That doesn't even speak to the disgusting teachings of the past that you are not allowed to read. Why is that? Why the secrecy? Honestly, why is that?

[IvanDefendingTruth]

There's no truth in anything you just said. Jehovah's Witnesses are not false prophets, 144,000 can be defended, "other sheep" can be defended, Jesus being an angel can be defended, etc.

A lot of the older teachings can be read and that is allowed. That is partially why the Proclaimers book was published. You've made many assertions but no arguments against.

[robotwookie]

P1)Ivan, I hate to tell you this but you are dead wrong and I will walk you through any of them if you wish. Lets start with the 'other sheep': Matthew 10:16 16 "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall become one flock with one shepherd." Notice how they never leave that last part in "They shall become one flock". Ivan, we have two understandings here. Either Jesus was talking to The Jews,

[robotwookie]

P2) telling them they were no longer his one fold and the Gentiles were of another fold and they WOULD BECOME ONE FOLD, or, (and this topic conveniently is never mentioned again in scripture) he was telling them that this was a super-enigma riddle meant to be decoded 1900 years later by people long after they were dead and that they obviously would never understand this (as they must not have)...Ivan, read the text on your own. I know you can't understand scripture on your own per WTBATS rules

[IvanDefendingTruth]

Christ's little flock are those who are of the heavenly hope, and at the time his disciples. If the "other sheep" are merely gentiles as you claim, then where's that leave all the people who lived and died prior to Christ's ministry? The NT is explicit in saying David didn't receive his reward. If his reward was heaven, then he never received it and this can be said of all the persons who lived and died before Christ's ministry. The "other sheep" class give hope to those deceased ones.

[robotwookie]

A)Uh, no. What you don't understand is the "The little flock' has been taken out of context as well. The WTBATS teaches that he was talking to The Apostles. But the truth is that he was talking to The Pharisees in an unbroken conversation from chapter 9 to 10. Read it for yourself. As far as David, he is in the grave waiting for the first resurrection. And his hope is heaven bro. Read: Hebrews 11:11-15:

[robotwookie]

B) 11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. 13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance.

[robotwookie]

c)And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—A HEAVENLY ONE. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. BTW, did you read the rest of my comments? Cheers

[IvanDefendingTruth]

So David's hope is heavenly even though he NEVER knew who Jesus Christ was nor could he have accepted him as Lord ans Saviour? He wasn't in the New Covenant, he was never born again, so how is it exactly, that David is going to heaven?

[robotwookie]

z)Ivan, please keep these comments in order. People can't follow them. The answer to your question is yes, he had a heavenly hope. How do I know? The Bible said it. I would recommend you read through the entire of section of Hebrews. It was too large to post here. It says ALL the old prophets are heaven bound. As far as your question is concerned, I don't know. I would have to leave that up to God. I'm not sure what he has worked out but we can both agree, Jehovah has everything under control

[IvanDefendingTruth]

Okay, if we suppose "all the old prophets are heaven bound" where does this leave those who will possess the earth, according to Jesus & many Psalms texts?

[robotwookie]

z2)That's a good question. First as TWBATS printed in a Watchtower in I believe '87, the psalm oft quoted was not meant to apply forever (but they still use it). As far as Jesus sermon on the mount, It's not certain how he was applying it. People debate it. Personally, I do believe that The Earth will not be destroyed as some Christians believe. Who inhabits it is up to God. AlI I know is that Jesus said in this covenant we have ONE hope: Heaven. Notice 'the great crowd' is in heaven. Reread it

[IvanDefendingTruth]

I disagree. That one hope isn't necessarily heaven, but rather eternal life, whether it be in heaven or earth. The question still remains, what about the earth and the people on it? Revelation 21 says that "the tent of God is with mankind", obviously mankind is on earth, not in heaven. So if the one hope is heaven, then Revelation 21 contradicts that.

[robotwookie]

z3)See, Ivan, that's the thing. There is no way one can look at The Bible and make complete sense of how everything is going to work out. This much we know: The 144,000 is in heaven. The great crowd is in heaven. The old prophets are going to heaven. This cannot be debated. The question, as you rightly pointed out is who is on earth? No one knows. And who are we to question what God has in store. It is entirely possible New Earth is figurative as well. All I know is my covenant is heaven...

[robotwookie]

z4)Also, can we start a new comment thread at the bottom so our conversation can almost be read in order? Thanks

[PYChamP]

@robotwookie no its not a good question its Moronic question because it CLEARLY states in the bible that he was Jehovah God's Son

[forthetruth101]

@PYChamP,If Jesus is God's Son and not God.How would you reconcile the verse in NWT in Ex.7:1 addressing Moses as God(notice:capital G) and Jesus not God at all?Does this mean at some point,Moses became higher than Jesus?If so,where can you prove that in the bible?If no,can you explain it to me?I have been waiting for Bethelites to answer this question,for years no answer yet from Watch Tower.May be you can answer.

[robotwookie]

P3)but I recommend doing it anyway. Did you ever wonder why no one for 2000 years EVER thought to create these oddball beliefs? It's because they read the whole Bible and not certain unrelated passages to construe these doctrines. It's the same of JW's, Mormons, SDA's and the like. They have their beliefs half-based on scripture. And they all have the same story. There was an immediate apostasy and they are here to re-establish 'truth'. Only from the outside do you see how ridiculous it is

[robotwookie]

P4)What did Jesus say would happen in the last days? There will come those who try to mislead you with a false gospel, a false Christ. They will say they are the truth and to follow them. What is happening Ivan? You say BILLIONS of Christians have been mislead for 2000 years but you likely haven't considered the possibility that you have been mislead. It's the arrogance of your position. You have this 'special knowledge of the truth' when in fact you don't even know your own 'organization'.

[robotwookie]

P5)And please go to 'The little flock' so I can show you how that is taken out of context as well. I'm not trying to mean man. You just don't know what you are talking about. I do. I used to be one of you. It's the same Reason Mr. Stafford in this debate left. He realized they were teaching untruths and he was you greatest apologist!.......

[forthetruth101]

@IvanDefendingTruth,can you give a linked or a source that notable scholars accept the translation "a god" in Jn.1:1 over God?Does the Greek manuscript of Jn.1:1 contain an indefinite article? If I accept your assertion that "a god" is better that "God",can you differentiate to me the god-ship of Satan in 2 Cor.4:4(NWT) between the god-ship of Jesus in Jn.1:1 both lexical and grammatical?

[bandaidmafia]

Did the end of his opening get cut off? It goes from Stafford talking about Colossians 2:9 to James White's rebuttal.

[IvanDefendingTruth]

Don't know why the images are off.. Sorry for that.