Greg Koukl - Is All Change Good? - Same-sex Marriage

[TheStrong32]

Ridiculour argument: Same-sex marriage will undermine the stability of [straight] marrieage. A bare accusation, which no one, NO ONE, has ever provided a reasonable explanation for. HOW will allowing marriage equality negatively affect straigtht marriage? As many times as I've asked this quesion, no one has ever, EVER answered it.

[1blah2blah3blah4blah]

@TheStrong32 : The social-scientific evidence to date does not encourage the notion that validating homosexual unions is a win-win situation. A series of articles in 2004 by Stanley Kurtz, a Harvard-trained social anthropologist and fellow at the Hoover Institution, show that the introduction of same-sex registered partnerships in Scandinavia has coincided with a sharp rise in out-of-wedlock births.

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@TheStrong32 : In articles published in The Weekly Standard (2/2/04, 5/31/04), National Review Online (2/2/04, 2/5/04, 5/04/04, 5/25/04, 6/03/04, 7/21/04), and elsewhere, Stanley Kurtz has shown that in Sweden and Norway from 1990 to 2000—that is, in the period roughly coinciding with the introduction of same-sex registered partnerships (now almost de facto “gay marriage”)—out-of-wedlock births have increased roughly 10%.

[1blah2blah3blah4blah]

@TheStrong32 : In Denmark about 60% of firstborn children now have unmarried parents. Since the introduction of registered partnerships in the Netherlands in 1997, out-of-wedlock births have increased annually there by two percentage points—double the average annual increase of the previous 15 years. The passage of official (not just de facto) same-sex marriage in 2000 did nothing to slow this national increase in 2001, 2002, and 2003.

[TheStrong32]

@1blah2blah3blah4blah " The passage of official (not just de facto) same-sex marriage in 2000 did nothing to slow this national increase in 2001, 2002, and 2003."

Nor did it do anything to speed it up. In other words, the passage of same-sex marriage had NO demonstrable negative effect on marriage in Denmark.

[1blah2blah3blah4blah]

@TheStrong32 : None of this is surprising given that homosexual unions are structurally incapable of producing children from the union and therefore depend on rhetoric that ultimately decouples marriage from the raising of children. {Material taken from the work of Dr. Robert Gagnon}

[TheStrong32]

@1blah2blah3blah4blah "homosexual unions are structurally incapable of producing children from the union and therefore depend on rhetoric that ultimately decouples marriage from the raising of children."

Actually, no. Lots of same-sex couples are raising children and, according to numerous studies, are doing a fine job of it. Children raised by same-sex couples are just as happy, just as healthy, just as well-ajusted--and just as likely to be straight--as chilren raised by straight couples.

[walterglanz]

Gays don't sit around obsessing about straights having sex -- it doesn't interest them, and vice versa. Anybody constantly talking about gay sex like this guy must be obsessed with it. He should learn to embrace his homosexuality instead of hating. Of course then he would have to find another scam to earn a million a year tax free from his "nonprofit" "religious" corporation.

[funboy7979]

This video is a joke right? Effeminate fool all nervous about gay men and calling New Jersey a corner nobody cares about? LMAO!

[tonzimala]

Anybody obsessed with homosexuality but who claims not to be homosexual is a closet gay. Anybody who says they are not gay but says homosexuality is a choice is pretty much admitting they have homosexual desires that they are hiding. Simple logic.

Any entity as great as what is described as a god is not going to care where this pathetic schmuck or anybody else sticks his little pink pee-pee. But this kind of hate-mongering causes a great deal of despair in the world. Tax-free hate shill.

[bnote1990]

how is he obsessed with homosexuality...he is merely speaking about it, just as he speaks about many issues...and not everyone is closeted....you ppl like to label everyone to be like you

[bc9021010001]

This fool sounds like a closet homo. Why? He never gets to the point, seeming to hide his actual thought process, like he is living a lie.

[veritaslogos]

so not getting to the point fast enough for you, means someone is a homosexual...interesting logic.

[bnote1990]

you people love to label everyone a homosexual, maybe we're not all like you...he's making some good points whether you like it or not

[perpetuallygrateful]

Sin may be hard to overcome & we should sympathize with those who are struggling against their sins, inborn or not, because we all have our own sins. But we still shouldn't lower God's standards by calling something good when it isn't. God will punish sin no matter what. But there's forgiveness in Jesus because He died in our place to take God's punishment for us. God will forgive us & grant eternal life to us if we trust in Jesus as the one who saved us. But He will never change His standards.

[uraine7626]

"We should sympathize with those who are struggling against their sins", Who would that be because we all sins, including you.

[perpetuallygrateful]

Yes, we should sympathize with those who are struggling against their sins because we're all sinners. Of course, this includes me. & of course this includes other sins like bestiality, adultery, murder, blasphemy, greed, etc. Inborn or not, God, our creator, tells us such things are sinful & that sin is wrong. We're in the fight against sin together. Ignoring sin doesn't help us fight it. Sometimes I don't recognize it when I sin & I need others to tell me when I do. I believe others do also.

[uraine7626]

The thing is people for once isn't ignoring sin here, God didn't write the bible, so how can you know what a sin or not when prophets tell you that many things are base on their own opinion. Secondly it's wrong to belittle and toture a group of people base on their sins when we all are sinners ourselves. How often do you see that happen? People telling others they going to hell or they are living in sin. But don't force on what they are doing that call hypocritcizism.

[perpetuallygrateful]

Uraine, I never said you should belittle homosexuals or torture them. I'm saying Homosexual desires are wrong. I'm only warning. I'm not punishing. You are putting your word against the New Testament's words. I'd rather take the words of the writers of the New Testament, on what is right or wrong than the words of someone online two thousand years afterwards. These people were either Jesus's disciples during his ministry or were close to the disciples & suffered a lot for holding to His truth.

[uraine7626]

I was speaking on people in general, for once. What are homosexuals desires? Do you even know what the hell you talking about? Where in the bible does it talks about homosexual's desires? And no many of these people weren't Jesus's disciples.....Mark, Matthew, luke and john were.

[perpetuallygrateful]

Uraine, here's what I said: "These people were either Jesus's disciples during his ministry or were close to the disciples & suffered a lot for holding to His truth." I didn't say they were all his disciples. But they were close to the disciples, and their messages matched the disciples'. God chose to speak through men. You can judge whether they are credible or not but the evidence is there in the bible. It's clear that they were speaking the truth from God, if you would read it yourself.

[uraine7626]

no u wrong

[uraine7626]

And taking God's words over my? Where did you hear God words at? I think you need so psychlology. If anyone consider you to be a Christian, it would be a slap in the face to Christianity because you clearly don't have a clue of what you are speaking about.

[uraine7626]

I think you just running your mouth and don't even know the first thing you are talking about, leave the bible out of your conversation if you don't know what you talking about. Because if you don't like homosexuals don't try to justify your dislike because something you don't understand.

[perpetuallygrateful]

For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie,and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator,who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another,men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

[perpetuallygrateful]

That's a passage from Romans Chapter 1 verses 25 to 27. The translation is NASB. It didn't say "homosexual desires" but if you like the words "degrading passions" and "burned in their desire" to describe "men with men committing indecent acts" and women who "exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural", I'll use those words instead.

[perpetuallygrateful]

The point is these degrading desires and passions, along with other wicked lusts and desires are wrong and are part of a moral free-fall. Our hearts should be full of love for our creator God, but instead, we love what is wrong. God is not going to lower His moral standards just because we have wicked desires. He will punish sin.

[perpetuallygrateful]

We cannot define sin according to our own standards, because God is not a liar. He will not call evil "good". Redefining sin won't cut it. But God, being rich in mercy, has offered a way out for us - a way for Him to count us as righteous before him so that we will escape His punishment. This is the good news. He has promised that those of us who admit our sins and trust in Jesus to take our punishment for us when He died on the cross will be forgiven and counted as righteous before Him.

[uraine7626]

But the argument was base on What God said or What Jesus said can you find someone in the bible that's say homosexuality was a sin? Yes or no because ever account refer to man as saying it was sinful to the eyes of the lord.

[uraine7626]

You can be heterosexual and commit homosexuality as many homosexual live a sexual life with the opposite but still have feeling of lust for the same sex. Sins are act like I said before and the bible never said to be homosexual or for some to have feeling for someone of the same sex is sinful because in fact the bible speak about having feeling for the same sex as your brothers or sister, but it didn't say have sex with them. So in fact sir you are wrong on those accounts.

[uraine7626]

I don't think you understood my question. The bible doesn't explain anything about homosexual's desire to do anything. It only talks about homosexuality with is different from being a homosexual. Just as heterosexuality is different from being heterosexual. I think you are written your own scriptures.

[perpetuallygrateful]

Ura-I just gave you scriptures from the New Testament (Romans 1:25 to 27) describing homosexual desire as "degrading passions" and homosexual behavior as "indecent acts". The bible claims to be God's word and it substantiates it very well with testimony of numerous winesses.

You claim that homosexuality is just different from heterosexuality. But you have not given any evidence or eye-witness testimony that your opinion is from God. So please don't get offended if I take God's word over yours.

[uraine7626]

First of all, retard-illerated mortherfucker, like I said in the beginning God didn't write the bible the bible tells us this. Second many thinks in the bible are said in personal point of view, know your literature, it will tell you this. Romans was written by paul, he wasn't a disciple or propeht, know that. The bible tell you this dumb ass. The bible never claims to be God's words. And I don't know what you talking about I claim homosexuality to be different from heterosexuality.

[perpetuallygrateful]

Uraine, just because you declare the bible not to be God's word doesn't mean it's not. First of all, in 2 Peter 3:15-16, Peter counts Paul's writings as scripture, and Peter was a disciple of Christ. Plus, Paul was persecuting Christians before he was an apostle, and the only reason he stopped was because Christ appeared to him. God made Paul blind until a Christian named Ananias laid his hands on him. Lots of people witnessed it. So Jesus clearly appeared to Paul.

[perpetuallygrateful]

So Uraine, since Peter declared Pauls writing to be scripture (and his declaration is more trustworthy than yours because his was backed by miracles), we should listen to what Paul says about scripture. Paul clearly tells us that all scripture is God-breathed in 2 Timothy 3:16. In Hebrews 1:1, the bible said that God spoke in many ways. If God chose to use people to speak and write His words down what's that to you? He chose to come as a baby in a manger. He can chose to speak through men.

[perpetuallygrateful]

Plus Uraine, why should you be so surprised that God's point of view differs from yours? Are you so perfect that you cannot be wrong. But you're listening to the bible when it agrees with you and when it doesn't, you either disregard it or cuss at it. All I did was tell you what it says. And in Romans :25-27 it's clear that Paul wasn't merely expressing his opionion, because when it is his personal opinion, Paul tells us, as in 1 Cor 7:12 - "But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that ...."

[perpetuallygrateful]

Uraine, we all have sins. And we all have things in our lives that don't conform to God's will. But if we systematically ignore what we dislike in God's word, how can we even admit our sins, let alone repent? So let's stop changing God to fit our image. God says homosexual desires "degrading passions". But God can also change people's hearts to love Him more than whatever they lust after. God doesn't do this apart from faith that He will forgive sins because of Christ and our repentance fr sins.

[zuluromeo]

People seem to forget.

Homosexuals have had and do have the *exact* same right to marriage that normal people do.

JR

[Jaric55]

Don't give that bull, they only have the right now to marry within your personal standards. Shame on you!

[CWD1148]

First of all, you can't mandate that marriage results in children. If it did, then infertile couples wouldn't be able to marry. Also, since you have no evidence, simply opinion, that a homosexual couple cannot raise a child as well as a straight couple, your argument is extremely weak.

[Jaric55]

Greg Koukl, how does this undermine that society that CONSISTS of loving, same-sex couples? If two people of the same gender marrying each other undermines your marriage, then there is something clearly wrong with your marriage. SAME-SEX MARRIAGE NOW!

[dingorex]

Now California can now legally marry same-sex first cousins.

Now Alabama is not the only state that is the butt of first-cousin marriage jokes. (pun intended)

Sorry, but marriage is for one man and one woman. Not one 1st cousin and another 1st cousin--same sex that is. We no longer allow 1st cousins to marry. Why Not? If anal intercoursers and vaginal intercoursers same-sexers can now do in California?

I want to marry 2 women and 3 first cousins. Why cannot I? Hope & Change will solve all.

[Jaric55]

Was that supposed to be an intelligent response to same-sex marriage? Look up the laws before you say stuff liek that.

[randyhelzerman]

This is the same argument which everybody else has been using. Frankly, its kind of disappointing--I would have expected some more creativity out of STR.

[mollholl3]

If you don't think that gay people have been around just as long as marriage has been around than you are kidding yourself. People are so afraid of seeing change as a good thing. People used to execute people for rediculous reasons. But times have changed and with that so have the laws.

[girzwald3]

And you are assuming that any change is progress and is good. Change is not always good.  Change is not always in the direction of progress.