You should repent. Moreover, you should ask God for eternal forgiveness through applying the death and resurrection of Jesus to your life of sin within the quietness of your bedroom tonight. As an unrepentant sinner myself, I made this decision around 15 years ago. This is the most important decision that you could ever make. - Romans 10:9-10
Losing God is painful as hell, but finding intelligent people in the process is so comforting. Especially here on your channel Deconverts , thank you !
I won't stop my journey yet though.Seeking the truth may require "convert" and "deconvert" over and over, not to just any organized religion but to a myriad other worldviews.Bottom line is, which created the other , which came first - Matter or Consciousness .. My love for a Universe with a purpose will cherish a small candle light of hope for #2
I watched the documentary of book of the dead ,And Horus , what your saying is completely true , the story of Jesus and Horus is the same, except Horus came 1500 years earlier and is mention in old Egyptian religion , tat religion lasted 3000 years , thats more than Christianity and Islam ,Just saying , Egyptian religion is the birthplace of world's first religions
I was wondering if you might recommend a book(s) or resources to learn more about Osiris and Mithras and Dionysus. I have heard different versions of the accounts of those figures that are quite dissimilar. Thanks.
Haha.. when you hear that statement, you lose the last hope of finding any truth in religion.... What a pathetic attempt to try to explain why the Jesus story existed before, in mythology... haha!!
Great deconversion story! I can relate. However, even though I consider myself an Atheist, the Christ-myth theory especially the parallels you drew with Horus were not cited. Additionally from all the research I've done, I haven't been able to find that these stories about Horus were actually told. For instance as far as I've been able to ascertain, Horus was never baptized. Not trying to sound confrontational, but where did you get your information?
Agreed. I was originally misled by the Zeitgeist video when I began my research. It turns out to be a gross oversimplification that makes freethinkers look disingenuous.
It's important that freethinkers site reliable sources when presenting their research. Otherwise we're just like the Muslims who are allowed to lie if it benefits and spreads Islam.
@TylerOmega The only occasion were Muslims are permitted to lie is to deny their faith if it will save their lives.
'What would it matter, if one would tell a good strong lie for the better and for the sake of the christian churches?' Martin Luther. Letters to Philip of Hess 1540.
This is excellent. It will help people trying to let go. I was lucky. I was brought up at Catholic schools and they pumped me full of that crap every day. But as I entered my teens I realized, it just wasn't rational. It was actually a bit like realizing Santa Clause didn't exist. It must be more difficult when the mind is older and has believed this wretched crap for longer.
wow. if satan can go back in time then why did he not just go and kill baby jesus. i mean, how do we know if its not seth who made up the story of jesus in order to decive people from beliving in horus. they dont, they just made it up in order to keep your form questionin.
i believe its good you started thinking again.bless you for that.im glad im deconverted.but it still takes time because they put lies in your head that is hard to get rid of.
I live in a climate in which there is too hot and too cold. Summer is too hot, Winter is too cold; but the Spring and Autumn are total Goldilociks! awesome weather now!
@preachinshawn Anyone who has even briefly studied ancient history, ancient cultures, or taken a history class would know of the most basic five: mithra, dionysus, osirus, horus and hercules. Please open a history text, or any text dealing with ancient history, classical history, a history of religion and you will have a plethora of citations.
The problem is people believe such claims without checking the original sources. I encourage people to look for the original references, rather than believing what some 19th or 20th century author says about the ancient references. But like I said, if Im mistaken someone can provide me with the ancient references.
I checked an online encyclopedia the "citations" came from books published in:
1800, 1971, 1988, 1993, 1998, 2005, 2007, and other recent years.
Why not quote the ancient documents that first mention these gods? Because if they did it would be obvious that these parallels are very badly stretched for in order to criticize the historical Jesus.
Of coarse if I am wrong someone can provide me with an ancient reference like people do when quoting Jesus (e.g. John 7:24).
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
dude....remember that God loves you...spiritual things are only understood by those who have been born again....were you born again? theologically speaking deconversion is impossible ...for God is Lord even in choosing us..Ephesians says that we were chosen before the foundation of the world...and this was not your or my idea...many people confuse growing up in a christian home with being a christian..if you were born in a garage..are u a car?..read Romans 8 29 and on...It is by faith my dear
@Dorianblack07 And this lecture on being "Not a real Christian(TM)" is coming from a person who has pornography favourited and featured on his/her YouTube channel? What would Jesus have to say about that?
I wish it was possible to enforce people into watching the entire video before they can leave comments.
@deconverts I find that too many times. If you want to comment on my video, please do, even if you totally disagree with what I have said in the video. But it's maddening when they make it so clear that they did not watch the whole video or sometimes didn't watch any of the video before commenting.
@Dorianblack07 What a crap is that? The saved ones were chosen before the foundation of the world? Wow, perfect justice! So there's is no free will or something. The few chosen ones can be happy about their luck and do whatever they want to do (like watching porn, for instance^^). The other, not so lucky ones have to accept their fate: Hell!! (no matter how hard they're trying to live a good live, no matter how selfless they're living) And you think that "god " is in fact worth admiring?
@Dorianblack07 um dude, u think that god is ur lord and is real. im just like this guy, i was raised as a christian, but i never completely accepted what my family told me."jesus christ died for your sins. God is always looking after you, and he wont let u get hurt"
well i found out that god doesnt watch my back. and how would jesus of died for my sins, i was never born yet, so i have no sins. I am now a Buddhist, who tries his best to meditate daily, not because i am told to do, but i did so
@matthewthenerd well that atlest is better then the christian idea of "i do it becheos god told me so". seriusly, christianity makes you a drone. not that i have anything against robots, but i think even my computer has more freedomes then those evangelists.
@Dorianblack07 to open up my mind, and to build my INTELLEGENCE!!! not ignorence! Buddhists and alot of other people believe in kharma, and i do too. for if you do bad, u will recieve bad back 10 fold. if u think that we didnt come from apes, and that the first 2 people on earth were adam and eve, then go ahead. but id u do believe that, u must also agree that you are into insest and is a insest baby. cuz if only 2 existed in the beginning of time, then u fucked ur family, literally.
@Dorianblack07 Just for future reference, trying to prove a point to a non-christian by saying "just read this bible passage and you'll understand" is , as us thinking folk don't see any relevance in a book that was written before people knew what happened to the sun at night.
@CartesianTheist You base your conclusions about your own life according to what others think of you? You need to stop trying to please people and think about what matters in your life.
@CartesianTheist I just reversed the roles of what X-tians would say to someone who lost their faith. Get it? And I think you're lying, you've always been a theist.
This is a prophecy that many will dpart from the church and that there will be a great falling away~ What about arceology and Bible prophecies? I hope you truly find the Lord~
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
@truthbeknowen Yes, that shows that more people will loose faith. I would guess that an all knowing god would be able to accurtly put a time scale of some sort on that, or even make a guess at a date.
deconverts, I had a similar experience to yourself. A lot of my youth was wasted in this absurd faith, and some of the damage will last for life. It's amazing how long it took and how hard it was to root out all the residual fears implanted into my psyche. Fortunately, the truth remains true no matter what we choose to believe, and I choose to believe that reason will prevail.
The reason I believe that there were ancient pagan gods that had similar stories to Jesus was because of all the ancient prophecies about the coming of Jesus in the old testament. But there is another problem, and that is that some of the stories of ancient gods have been put on Jesus. The english bible says that mary was a virgin, but this is a translation error. Another problem with the bible is that it's incomplete. Jesus quoted from the book of Enoch, but why wasn't it cannonized?
I am really enjoying your story and this series. I wish you had gone into more detail about the gods that Chirstainity borrowed so much from, though. Well, you did discuss it a bit, but this could be a valuable learning tool for others who simply think Jesus is the only one. If only people knew these stories go back long before the days of Christ.
I did learn something from this, however. The devil supposedly goes back in time and plants all the similar stories? Of course. How convenient.
@MrStillmans and a new interpretation of the bible will be coming to a store near you will be released to the public that includes answers to all the questions the new testament did not fully explain. the neon bible! made even more convenient!!! :D
are u shitting me? You guys re-interpreted the bible AFTER scientific facts become clear. The world isn't shaped like an egg and embryo's don't start with bones and the flesh comes later. Already 2 facts in the bible incorrect. And yes I read the damn thing
What if god wants me to not believe in him and puts me in heaven if i dont believe in him? Sounds dumb? yes, just as dumb as christianity and just as likely.
I like it more, because if atheists say "why dont you believe in zeus or horus?" the christian just answers it is the same god. And then you have to waste time explaining that the traditions and rituals of those gods are different.
Because I'd like to see the reasoning people give for leaving the faith. And he found reasoning, in many cases, where there is none. Like the Horus link, which was completely made up in the 20th century.
@chuber1979 - Well if you KNOW God exists then please share the evidence so that the rest of us who have been BEGGING for Faith heads to show us, can finally see it. I won't hold my breathe.
As a child I thought of the bible as fiction I still do but I till wonder why my mom has such faith in so much ilogical things I try to reach her thorught qusions but she always gives me you must have faith you must have faith its as those she has closed her mind to qusions I think religen is a easy way out of whats really going on it the world
As for you, eflint1, I'm just now entering this comment section and am not going to bother reading all of your past comments (though I have read a few). Please watch the videos in my playlist called "Science" to understand what the current scientific view of reality really is.
And if you have any evidence or logical reason to believe in God, please share your knowledge and wisdom
Thank all of you for sharing with me. This is a VERY interesting discussion (though also admittedly very sad for me). But I'm hoping to learn some things I can share with others concerning your experiences.
We think you're sad that you have convinced yourself that Christianity is okay, right and good when it so obviously is not. You've even admitted to "discernment", which seems like a way of saying you justify the bullshit in your own mind just to remain Christian.
BTW, we are not your lab rats and you really don't know enough to preach about us unless you choose to assume a lot (i.e. lie) and draw conclusions that fit your beliefs (i.e. more lying).
How do your Christian family members treat you now that you've gone beyond just "backsliding" to actually feeling compelled to share your deconversion experiences with the world? In a sense, it seems like you guys are evangelists. How has this effected family relations?
Also, WHY do you feel compelled to share your stories in such a format?
You guys wouldn't believe in God if He appeared to you, because you still wouldn't be able to prove Him scientifically. You'd say it was just an hallucination or something. It's too bad that we only get a small space to try to post on here. But hey, one day you'll be believers. I'll remind you of all your posts on here. But if I'm wrong, you won't get to rub it in my face because we'll all be food for worms taking a dirt nap.
So are you proclaiming yourself to be a Christian?
BTW, I used to be a Christian. I tried SO HARD to believe. But the lies, hypocrisy and contradiction in the Bible just didn't sit well with me.
Now, I do believe there is something beyond us. Something bigger. I just don't think it is that petty, vicious, vindictive, xenophobic, misogynistic God of Abraham. There is NO WAY the Divine is that mundane.
Oh, and in case you didn't realize it......your post was chock full of superior attitude and snideness. Your assuredness borders on arrogance. It's especially offensive because it is just your BELIEF and has not one thing to do with KNOWLEDGE. You're attempting to pass of a personal faith as absolute truth and THAT is just plain wrong.
I just had a thought. What if we all get reincarnated? Will the act you've committed in this life gain you a better life next time? Or will you be a blind, legless beggar in Indonesia? Is your behavior right and good or is it merely within the bounds of Christianity?
There is quite a lot of anecdotal evidence for reincarnation from all over the world. It seems more likely than eternal salvation/damnation.
Don't you just LOVE food for thought? Or do you think?
You have allot of "assuredness" yourself there pal, especially when it comes to your attitude about me. You don't even know me and yet you paint me with such a broad brush. I don't see you holding the atheists here to the same standard you hold me to.
So it's OK for atheists to be snide then. Oh, I see. And you talked about Christian hypocrisy? And atheists use science to prove their belief that God doesn't exist?
The label "Atheist" doesn't tell you *anything* whatsoever about a persons positive beliefs. They might not accept the Scientific method at all, although from my observations of atheists in general I would say most have a stronger appreciation for the natural sciences than Christians, on the whole, do.
Science is not used by anybody to prove beliefs about the non-existence of God. It just reveals evidence that suggests your brand of deity is non-existent.
And i hopy you know that I'm just yankin your chain for the most part. "although from my observations of atheists in general I would say most have a stronger appreciation for the natural sciences than Christians, on the whole, do." We agree. "It just reveals evidence that suggests your brand of deity is non-existent." We do not agree. In fact.
You cannot prove a negative. Science doesn't DISPROVE God so much as it explains what previously only had religious explanation. It is the religious who are so hypocritical as to claim science has it all wrong yet run to the doctor when they are ill or injured.
You're trying to hold faith up as equal to evidence when faith is ALL ABOUT belief without proof. Science is about belief with proof and that ideas can and do change.
I've seen PERSONALLY too many changed lives (mine included) for it all to be imaginary , my friend. Sure there are fakes and phonies as well. But in order for there to be a counterfeit, there has to be the real thing.
Couldn't that change merely be attributed to the placebo effect? You THINK religion makes a difference so therefore it does? The power of the mind to affect change has been researched and noted.
Did you know that people will multiple personalities often have different illnesses that manifest with each personality? Conditions like diabetes, poor eyesight, high blood pressure, etc. appear in some personalities and disappear in others.
Counterfeit is the wrong word to use. Fake, fraud and phony are appropiate. You don't have to have something real in order for there to be something fake. Alchemy, the supposed art/science of turning base metals into gold was an actual practice at one time. However, no one has ACTUALLY turned lead into gold, therefore, even though all alchemists were charlatans, there were no "real" alchemists to counter them.
I don't claim to use perfect analogies. the reason i used the "counterfeit" analogy is because allot of former believers I know (now atheists) cite "phonies, hypocrites, etc" they encountered in churches. I was making the point that there are Christians who are not phonies. Interestingly enough, our minister preached about alchemists last week.
You keep skirting the main point I've made several times that belief in a deity causing changes in people's live could possibly be due to the placebo effect. How do you dismiss this point? The mind is very powerful and prompt humans to acts of superhuman strength (i.e. a mother lifting a car off her child) with NO divine assistance called upon.
But that belief does not equal truth, and that is why we argue. Theists constantly try to pass off subjective experiences- feelings, internal thoughts and the like- as "proof".
It is not proof.
And I am not "your friend", please do not address me as such. Friendship takes time to build. Ciaochowbella is my friend, she is a wise and loving person, despite your opinion to the contrary.
Ok, how about "my acquaintance"? Is that acceptable? Geesh. And I NEVER said that
ciaochowbella was NOT a loving, wise person. Where did you get that? Furthermore, I never said experiences were proof. I was asked WHY I believe and I explained that changed lives were a reason I believe. You see, i don't know your past religious experience (if any) and it's hard to have a dialog on YouTube's limited format. But I have noticed that many of the "unconverted" had bad experiences in church.
1RationalMind didn't claim you said anything about me. He was making his own statement. Why so defensive?
Regardless of your opinion of me, you cannot deny that nearly every "miracle of faith" can be explained by other means. You do imply that personal experiences are proof. You said you've personally seen the changes. However, you continue to sidestep my assertion that those changes could merely be placebo effect and not evidence of a deity.
Well, you're rather wishy-washy and tend to back up from making ACTUAL statements of faith, but it seems that you dismiss science as fact and accept faith as proof.
You've attempted to condescend to me and you've attributed your own behavior to me. You've been dismissive and patronizing. You've told me you didn't HAVE to answer my questions, yet demanded I answer yours.
In short, you've been rude, snotty, arrogant and pedantic and took immediate umbrage if I gave back as good as I got.
You're threatened by me and assumptive.
Did that cover it?
Now, offer me the same courtesey I've offered you and answer MY questions.
I'm afraid we're at an impasse because the feeling is mutual. I perceived your initial attitude toward me to be how you just described mine towards you. My apologies. That certainly wasn't my intention (to be rude). Start over?
eflint1, I think ciaochowbella, 1RationalMind - and me - want you to actually start answering some of the questions that all of us (and others) have asked. We have all answered your posed questions whereas you have sidestepped everything being asked of you.
If you wish to debate, this is a good place for it. If you wish to preach, please do it on your own channel. This is not the place for it.
Back to the attitude,huh? This is what I was referring to, giving orders. You don't want to have a dialogue. You want to debate. You are not just an unbeliever, but I sense a real undercurrent of hostility in you towards the things of God. I am sincerely just trying to have an understanding of how you think, what makes you tick. You obviously don't want to talk about your past experiences. Fine. Don't.
You were a little hasty in your tirade there, weren't you? Tsk Tsk While you were baring your teeth I was typing an answer to your question. You lack patience.
You lack verve and force of conviction. I've asked those questions repeatedly and you've avoided them. Now you dismiss the possibility.
You're not interested in discourse. You want to preach and/or interrogate. You don't want to exchange ideas. You want to try to poke hole in supposed theories.
And no, I wasn't "hasty". It has taken you 2 days to answer the first question and most of today to answer the second. Don't congratulate yourself for tardiness and sidestepping.
1. You have asked many loaded questions with a view to pushing your propaganda. You haven't answered any.
2. A dialog, a debate = same thing.
3. You are the one who is not working constructively to have a discussion. Everything you say here is completely one-sided. You answer nothing, you discuss nothing.
You obviously are only interested in pushing your beliefs and you obviously don't want to have an intelligent discussion. Good luck with your blind belief.
Yes, I've viewed your videos. Aren't you the one narrating the video on this page? Yes, I'd say you are 'damaged goods" from the church (in one sense). I mean, what kind of cult would tell a young man that God doesn't want Him to study for His exams? Sadly, you also fell prey to the Brownsville crap. You saw through the sham, but I think it was a turning point in your life that helped lead to your deconversion. I've been taught as a Christian to be skeptical, and analyze everything. DISCERNMENT
I knew from our earlier conversation that you'd bring about the discussion about discernment. I wish you would take it one step further and analyse (for real this time) why your beliefs are true and see if you can actually justify them.
Whilst seeing problems in the church was a motivating factor, it isn't the reason. The brownsville people for instance might discern that your particular sect of xtianity is the wrong one and that you're deluded.
"Who is right? How can we tell?" I'll defer to your logic on that one. How can we tell? COMMON SENSE ("God given", of course.(lol) You don't have to even be super spiritual to see through crap like that. But Christians feel guilty if they have doubts, when I feel it's God speaking to them through their own consciences saying "This ain't of me".
Your common sense argument holds no water. What is common in one culture, like arranged marriage, is abhorrent in another. What is considered right in one faith, say mutilating the genitals of children, is considered heinous in another.
Then what do you do with the human conscience? Even evolutionists believe in the conscience. I've seen their books on the subject. The genital mutilates do have a conscience, and it does tell them they are wrong. They just choose to ignore it. Their conscience becomes burned out.
So you disagree then with evolutionists who expound on the human conscience? You think these people NEVER had even a tingle of uncertainty the first time they witnessed or actually aided in a mutilation?
I never said I disagree or agree about the human conscience according to evolutionists.
What I am saying is that right and wrong are cultural norms and NOT common to all humanity. IF conscience is genetic, and there are doubts about that, it's possible that it only extends to the basics of survival for the individual, its offspring and tribe or group. I'm sure the fine points of conscience are NOT genetically imposed.
I should also say I deconverted in 2007. The Brownsville trip was in 1998. I didn't see through anything at the time as to be frank, I first had to learn how to learn.
I'm pretty sure my videos cover it. There are more planned, I don't intend them to be preachy but if you want to get into the mind of a deconvert, go ahead and check them out as they come.
You can't unring a bell. I'm fine with things as they are since I wasn't hostile and I was just letting you be your unpleasant self. You can be nice or not. Makes no difference to me.
Now, you have STILL not answered the questions.....are you a Chrisitan? Is it possible the the placebo effect and the power of the mind explain "miracles of faith"?
I've seen both. I've been a Christian since 1980. There is NOTHING I haven't seen. If my faith was in people or the "religious establishment" then I would have unconverted long ago. I'm not popular in some circles because I tell it like it is and expose hypocrisy, hype, and abuse in the so called "church". I've seen the "placebo effect" you've mentioned. I've also seen the real McCoy. The placebo effect can't produce a "miracle". It's effects soon wear off and the victim is left hanging.
There is NOTHING I haven't seen when it comes to garbage in churches. But of course, you know that is what I meant. Now are you going to start intentionally misrepresenting me as well, or creating straw men tyo argue with?
Unlike you, I don't presume what isn't written. I didn't know that was what you meant. Clarity will help prevent confusion.
However, if the church is so corrupt, why bother with it anyway? Why MUST you believe in that particular God? Why not just an unnamed deity? Frankly, I always thought it was supreme arrogance to clain the know the name of God in the first place.
I knew you'd like that one! LOL I would have been shocked if you had not heard that one before. But i couldn't resist. But i have to do something to get you to lighten up. but i would like to know more about your background. How did you come to your conclusions about Christianity/religion/ God? What was your experience in the "church".
I know this move too. I think it's highly likely that you haven't actually watched my videos?
Do you know why I'm laughing at The Way of the Master? Do you see why it is the most foolishly, ridiculously poor argumentation or are you genuinely trying it on?
I see your tactic now for what it is and I will call you on it. I am not damaged goods from the church and do not have "hurt" and "pain" from the church that I'm having to rebel about.
Why is that so many Christians see those who have forsaken Christianity as damaged goods? I left because I couldn't deal with the lies, hypocrisy and contradictions of the Bible. The VERY things you enumerated in your video are things I struggled with for years.
It's not always about pain. Sometimes it's about good sense.
To acknowledge that a deconvert (pardon the pun) is all round happier, posesses greater independance and thinking potential, has a tighter grip on science, philosophy, and humanism is somewhat abhorrant. The unbelievers have to be negatively portrayed as it's the only way to make the church look like the bringer of light.
The thing is, the church is really a real solution. But it's a solution to a problem that it alone creates.
WE AGREE!! I can't blame you! Somehow I was blessed enough to be under leaders who taught me to be skeptical and discerning. Some say "You JUDGING, brother!" You better believe I am! that's probably why I didn't deconvert years ago myself. So I can't help but wonder about all of you, where would you be if you had been in a church that taught you to be "analytical Christians"( which is an oxymoron in many cases)?
Actually, it was my mother, the teacher, who taught me to be analytical. The church told me to never question its teachings....even when they contradicted themselves. The church was the one who made me feel guilty and wrong even when I'd done nothing to feel that way. I was NOT born in sin. I did NOT need salvation. And I do NOT have to be grateful for a blood sacrifice that was committed 2000 years ago to supposedly save me. I'm better than that and I don't need religious sanction to know it.
Not since I quit being Christian. Before then, it was just the rules of the church I was violating.
I've never stolen, never killed, never gone against my personal code of ethics.
I have had sex, lied, smoked weed, gotten drunk and danced naked with strange men.....however, if you're not burdened with the weight of desert dogma and patriarchy, those things aren't sins.
Why would that happen? There is nothing inherently wrong with any of those things. Why would I suddenly decide they are wrong if I'm not hurting anyone?
You just wish and hope it happens so I conform to your patriarchal paradigm.
I'm too sure of my feminine power to kowtow to male dominance.
LOL This ain't about conforming to anything 'patriarchal". You are really giving me some clues, though, as to how you arrived where you are today . This was just another piece of the puzzle.
Oh, yes it is. The WHOLE of Christianity is about ownership of women to insure the paternity of children. In the OT, women found not to be virgin on their wedding nights were stoned. Women are admonished to be silent in church and recieve instruction from their husbands. Most denominations don't allow females to become pastors or priests.
If you think Christianity isn't chock full of misogyny, you're blind and crazy.
You just describe OT Judaism, not Christianity. And where does the Bible say a woman can't pastor? If you knew the isolated context of the "keep silent in church", you would know it's often taken out of context. But since when are "lying, smoking weed and getting drunk" paternal issues anyway?
A prominent JEWISH leader named Paul spent allot of time explaining why certain things in the Mosaic Law don't apply to us today. If you weren't taught that, then you weren't taught the Bible.
Oh sure. That's we he gave up his wealthy Roman lifestyle, his secure place of leadership in the Judean puppet regime and lived like a beggar after inventing an imaginary encounter with some Jesus cat who never existed. Yeah, makes perfect sense to me.
If you believe all that, I've got some land to sell you.
Besides, who was Paul to contradict Jesus? He did, you know. Paul was a charlatan and a faker. He DID invent his encounter with GOD (he didn't say Jesus) and proceeded to lie his ass off for his Roman bosses in order to gain control of the Jesus freaks.
It worked too. Look at you....kowtowing to the book they constructed and believing the lies they fed you.
Oh it worked, huh? That's why he lived a good chunk of his latter years in a hole and was finally beheaded. Sounds like you've been duped. But as you told me, maybe it "suits your purposes" to believe what you believe. But again, thanks for sharing and giving me a greater insight to your philosophy. I hope for your sake that you are right. If not, I'll come introduce myself at the Great White Throne Judgment . :)
Since you haven't done any of the above, you refuse to answer basic questions about your faith all the while acting like some supreme interrogator and you have little to offer past Way of The Master and Pascals Wager (all debunked already and you know it) then you proceed to make threats and lie your ass of for Jesus, you're just preaching.
I don't think that a god who hides his existence at every turn possible, would judge a man for his honest search for truth.
Although, the Christian/Judaistic and Islamic gods would, according to their corresponding scripture anyhow. After all, they are purported to be unfair, judgmental, hypocritical, and so on within their own "word."
I have a similar story; if god is going to judge me for doing my best with what I have been given (as you say), then I truly want no part of him anyway.
First of all, God does not hide His existence from those who will INVITE Him into their lives. This thinh is on HIS terms, not yours. Secondly, our own "goodness" will never atone for sins we have committed. That is why Christ died in our place as our substitute. Like Cain, man wants to please God his own way. Christ's offer of eternal life is ALL INCLUSIVE. ANYONE can receive it.
I understand your perspective; I was born into and raised Christian, thinking of myself as such for nearly all my life.
However, there are just too many holes in scripture, too many contradictions between real-morality (do unto others) and the actions of this god, and the world and we are too imperfect (as you've pointed out to a degree) to have come from a "perfect" being. Perfection cannot create imperfection, neither would it need anything, nor have anything to accomplish; Else it is not.
Ok, since this thread has gone on for ages nobody minds if i Godwin the thingy.
By this reasoning;
Hitler in his bunker sees the light, invites Jesus and runs out into the street to share the great news of his saviour! Alas, a russian bomb explodes and little Adolf goes up to the pearly gates to sit next to Jesus in heaven.
A good and honest man however is cast into the flames, cause he didn't accept Jesus. He happened to be born into judeaism...
What you described is not Biblical. Someone like Hitler would not just "see the light". Jesus said that we can't come unto Him unless the Father draws us. The fruit of Hitler's life is evidence that he shut the door on God years before and had crossed that point of no return. His mind was reprobate. As for the "honest man", I'm sorry but ALL have sinned, and the wages of sin is death. But he, like anyone else, can stop depending on his own righteousness and turn to Christ alone. His choice.
Stop blabbering out of your ass. Jesus is a myth... GET OVER IT!
The more you dig to try and find evidence that there even ever was a "Jesus", the more you find there is none.
Let's face it... there are people who wished to dupe us for thousands of years and have succeeded.. But also there have been doubters of this truth for thousands of years too. And now, there are more and more non-believers than ever before .. why? Because of one thing and one thing only... : It isn't true
And where is YOUR proof that Jesus never existed. There are more BELIEVERS than ever before. There are MILLIONS of testimonies of inexplicably changed lives. They all can't be wrong. Be a non-believer if you like. But keep your rude comments to yourself, please.
When you make claims, you insult others because you refuse to look into the matter and truly are pompous and assholish if there is such a word.
If there were a zillion people on Mars and they all believed in Ooogah... goddess of fertility that lived on Earth's moon, and you had been to the moon, then ALL WOULD BE WRONG.
So YES, they can all be wrong and indeed they are wrong.
You are the rude one here as you love to bear false witness against others. You don't care SQUAT about truth!
"If there were a zillion people on Mars".... If,if,if.......
Well, there actually ARE millions of people who believe in the historical figure known as Jesus. There are millions more that have more than a "belief" but who have actually had an encounter with him. You can't take way someone's experience. When He found me, i wasn't lonely or depressed or looking for something. I was enjoying my sin and wanted more. You think I would just give up all the "fun" based on a "belief" in a religion?
"When He found me" is a delusional statement based on NOTHING but fantasy.
The MYTH declares "He" sees all. Do you "LOVE" your 'JESUS" when you are in the throes of sexual intercourse? or other sexual things? Really? DOES HE SEE YOU THEN?
You are a f--d up moron that is only spouting off because you feel it is your duty to do so. Yet, your "Jesus" is about truth and NOT fantasy. So GROW UP and FOLLOW if you so declare and start being honest for a change you hypocritical liar.
And by the way, if you ARE a non-believer, it is much more difficult than being one especially if you live among the deluded. These claims of yours of "enjoying sin and wanted more" are bogus and full of crap. Truth simply is, there is nothing victorious about it. We have just started discovering our neighborhood in a vast vast Galaxy called the Milky way which is part of perhaps TRILLIONS of other galaxies... we are tiny & very small.. you are delusional.
Boy, you talk about people acting like "A-holes" (as you put it). FYI, I shout "Thank you God for inventing sex!" every time I'm bangin' my wife! So now I'm a liar? I didn't enjoy my sin as I said? You are a very flustered, frustrated person. You have a need to feel superior, so you embrace this "enlightenment" of atheism to feel good about y
This has been flagged as spam show
Let’s put an end to all religion.
Cut and paste URL into browser address bar:
endallreligions.blogspot.com
paularenas26 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
You should repent. Moreover, you should ask God for eternal forgiveness through applying the death and resurrection of Jesus to your life of sin within the quietness of your bedroom tonight. As an unrepentant sinner myself, I made this decision around 15 years ago. This is the most important decision that you could ever make. - Romans 10:9-10
paularenas26 1 month ago
Losing God is painful as hell, but finding intelligent people in the process is so comforting. Especially here on your channel Deconverts , thank you !
I won't stop my journey yet though.Seeking the truth may require "convert" and "deconvert" over and over, not to just any organized religion but to a myriad other worldviews.Bottom line is, which created the other , which came first - Matter or Consciousness .. My love for a Universe with a purpose will cherish a small candle light of hope for #2
Robinexs 4 months ago in playlist More videos from deconverts
I watched the documentary of book of the dead ,And Horus , what your saying is completely true , the story of Jesus and Horus is the same, except Horus came 1500 years earlier and is mention in old Egyptian religion , tat religion lasted 3000 years , thats more than Christianity and Islam ,Just saying , Egyptian religion is the birthplace of world's first religions
djay00009 4 months ago
I was wondering if you might recommend a book(s) or resources to learn more about Osiris and Mithras and Dionysus. I have heard different versions of the accounts of those figures that are quite dissimilar. Thanks.
wlemusic 5 months ago
5:23-5:35
Haha.. when you hear that statement, you lose the last hope of finding any truth in religion.... What a pathetic attempt to try to explain why the Jesus story existed before, in mythology... haha!!
Great videos!
aboyborninjune 5 months ago
Great deconversion story! I can relate. However, even though I consider myself an Atheist, the Christ-myth theory especially the parallels you drew with Horus were not cited. Additionally from all the research I've done, I haven't been able to find that these stories about Horus were actually told. For instance as far as I've been able to ascertain, Horus was never baptized. Not trying to sound confrontational, but where did you get your information?
BurenVanMartin 7 months ago
@BurenVanMartin
Agreed. I was originally misled by the Zeitgeist video when I began my research. It turns out to be a gross oversimplification that makes freethinkers look disingenuous.
It's important that freethinkers site reliable sources when presenting their research. Otherwise we're just like the Muslims who are allowed to lie if it benefits and spreads Islam.
TylerOmega 7 months ago
@TylerOmega The only occasion were Muslims are permitted to lie is to deny their faith if it will save their lives.
'What would it matter, if one would tell a good strong lie for the better and for the sake of the christian churches?' Martin Luther. Letters to Philip of Hess 1540.
gamesbok 5 months ago
I think that REASON is to be blamed for our de-conversion. "Oh, Reason, what have you done to me????????"
propatria0704 1 year ago
This is excellent. It will help people trying to let go. I was lucky. I was brought up at Catholic schools and they pumped me full of that crap every day. But as I entered my teens I realized, it just wasn't rational. It was actually a bit like realizing Santa Clause didn't exist. It must be more difficult when the mind is older and has believed this wretched crap for longer.
27182818R 1 year ago
wow. if satan can go back in time then why did he not just go and kill baby jesus. i mean, how do we know if its not seth who made up the story of jesus in order to decive people from beliving in horus. they dont, they just made it up in order to keep your form questionin.
gooddarkjedi 1 year ago
The music is almost as good as your rational.
MrOpenGamer 1 year ago
great quote... sagan is god
ripemind 1 year ago
when athiests come with these weapons they will always win the battle thats when true faith kicks in and you never had true faith.
EKmion 1 year ago
i believe its good you started thinking again.bless you for that.im glad im deconverted.but it still takes time because they put lies in your head that is hard to get rid of.
witchcerridwen 1 year ago
I live in a climate in which there is too hot and too cold. Summer is too hot, Winter is too cold; but the Spring and Autumn are total Goldilociks! awesome weather now!
Godlesspanther 1 year ago
Could you please provide the ORIGINAL references for the claims about the "Jesus like gods"?
Whenever people bring up these claims they fail to provide where the claims originally came from.
preachinshawn 1 year ago
@preachinshawn Anyone who has even briefly studied ancient history, ancient cultures, or taken a history class would know of the most basic five: mithra, dionysus, osirus, horus and hercules. Please open a history text, or any text dealing with ancient history, classical history, a history of religion and you will have a plethora of citations.
TwyztdValkyrie 1 year ago
TwyztdValkyrie
cont…
The problem is people believe such claims without checking the original sources. I encourage people to look for the original references, rather than believing what some 19th or 20th century author says about the ancient references. But like I said, if Im mistaken someone can provide me with the ancient references.
preachinshawn 1 year ago
TwyztdValkyrie
I checked an online encyclopedia the "citations" came from books published in:
1800, 1971, 1988, 1993, 1998, 2005, 2007, and other recent years.
Why not quote the ancient documents that first mention these gods? Because if they did it would be obvious that these parallels are very badly stretched for in order to criticize the historical Jesus.
Of coarse if I am wrong someone can provide me with an ancient reference like people do when quoting Jesus (e.g. John 7:24).
cont…
preachinshawn 1 year ago
Basically, good stuff, but volume of background music is distractingly loud.
currishev 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
dude....remember that God loves you...spiritual things are only understood by those who have been born again....were you born again? theologically speaking deconversion is impossible ...for God is Lord even in choosing us..Ephesians says that we were chosen before the foundation of the world...and this was not your or my idea...many people confuse growing up in a christian home with being a christian..if you were born in a garage..are u a car?..read Romans 8 29 and on...It is by faith my dear
Dorianblack07 1 year ago
@Dorianblack07 And this lecture on being "Not a real Christian(TM)" is coming from a person who has pornography favourited and featured on his/her YouTube channel? What would Jesus have to say about that?
I wish it was possible to enforce people into watching the entire video before they can leave comments.
deconverts 1 year ago 15
@deconverts I find that too many times. If you want to comment on my video, please do, even if you totally disagree with what I have said in the video. But it's maddening when they make it so clear that they did not watch the whole video or sometimes didn't watch any of the video before commenting.
Godlesspanther 1 year ago
@deconverts who watches porn on youtube? onestly.
gethsoftware 4 months ago
Comment removed
EickhorstPokerPro 1 year ago
@Dorianblack07 What a crap is that? The saved ones were chosen before the foundation of the world? Wow, perfect justice! So there's is no free will or something. The few chosen ones can be happy about their luck and do whatever they want to do (like watching porn, for instance^^). The other, not so lucky ones have to accept their fate: Hell!! (no matter how hard they're trying to live a good live, no matter how selfless they're living) And you think that "god " is in fact worth admiring?
EickhorstPokerPro 1 year ago
@Dorianblack07 Your idiocies aren't welcome.
SanguineBullet667 1 year ago
@Dorianblack07 um dude, u think that god is ur lord and is real. im just like this guy, i was raised as a christian, but i never completely accepted what my family told me."jesus christ died for your sins. God is always looking after you, and he wont let u get hurt"
well i found out that god doesnt watch my back. and how would jesus of died for my sins, i was never born yet, so i have no sins. I am now a Buddhist, who tries his best to meditate daily, not because i am told to do, but i did so
matthewthenerd 1 year ago
@matthewthenerd well that atlest is better then the christian idea of "i do it becheos god told me so". seriusly, christianity makes you a drone. not that i have anything against robots, but i think even my computer has more freedomes then those evangelists.
gooddarkjedi 1 year ago
@Dorianblack07 to open up my mind, and to build my INTELLEGENCE!!! not ignorence! Buddhists and alot of other people believe in kharma, and i do too. for if you do bad, u will recieve bad back 10 fold. if u think that we didnt come from apes, and that the first 2 people on earth were adam and eve, then go ahead. but id u do believe that, u must also agree that you are into insest and is a insest baby. cuz if only 2 existed in the beginning of time, then u fucked ur family, literally.
matthewthenerd 1 year ago
@matthewthenerd If you're into Buddhist teachings then perhaps you'll like some Taoist ones as well. Here ya' go:
youtube . com/watch?v=jmQNBSQmXCE
Feel free to watch if you feel inclined.
Mystrymeat 1 year ago
@Dorianblack07 Just for future reference, trying to prove a point to a non-christian by saying "just read this bible passage and you'll understand" is , as us thinking folk don't see any relevance in a book that was written before people knew what happened to the sun at night.
SigmaSigmaGnarly 2 months ago in playlist More videos from deconverts
This is beautiful, i really liked your video and i can relate to many of the things you said.
bombarderoazul 1 year ago
@CartesianTheist You base your conclusions about your own life according to what others think of you? You need to stop trying to please people and think about what matters in your life.
warrkrymez 1 year ago
@CartesianTheist I just reversed the roles of what X-tians would say to someone who lost their faith. Get it? And I think you're lying, you've always been a theist.
warrkrymez 1 year ago
@CartesianTheist You're just a lukewarm atheist, that's why you faltered in your non-faith, you better get right with science.
warrkrymez 1 year ago
circular reasoning, a chrisitians bread and butter.
aguteempasil 1 year ago
Great video!!
You're absolutely right!!
seelenschlingerxx 1 year ago
Whats the music playing in the background?
Excellent videos BTW, some of the best I've seen you Youtube.
tipoomaster 1 year ago
wow!
someone99220 1 year ago
This is a prophecy that many will dpart from the church and that there will be a great falling away~ What about arceology and Bible prophecies? I hope you truly find the Lord~
truthbeknowen 1 year ago
@truthbeknowen i will punch the lord in the face if he gets near me again, i dont want that guy touching me there again
catcrapinahat 1 year ago
@truthbeknowen did it specify when?
Too vauge to be bothered about. Anyway even the bible knows people will get more intelligent
911650 1 year ago
@911650
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
truthbeknowen 1 year ago
@truthbeknowen Yes, that shows that more people will loose faith. I would guess that an all knowing god would be able to accurtly put a time scale of some sort on that, or even make a guess at a date.
911650 1 year ago
This is such a great documentary on your deconversion! Very nicely made video!
showbizjosh40 1 year ago
deconverts, I had a similar experience to yourself. A lot of my youth was wasted in this absurd faith, and some of the damage will last for life. It's amazing how long it took and how hard it was to root out all the residual fears implanted into my psyche. Fortunately, the truth remains true no matter what we choose to believe, and I choose to believe that reason will prevail.
Snurdgerbly 1 year ago
The reason I believe that there were ancient pagan gods that had similar stories to Jesus was because of all the ancient prophecies about the coming of Jesus in the old testament. But there is another problem, and that is that some of the stories of ancient gods have been put on Jesus. The english bible says that mary was a virgin, but this is a translation error. Another problem with the bible is that it's incomplete. Jesus quoted from the book of Enoch, but why wasn't it cannonized?
yistackness 1 year ago
I am really enjoying your story and this series. I wish you had gone into more detail about the gods that Chirstainity borrowed so much from, though. Well, you did discuss it a bit, but this could be a valuable learning tool for others who simply think Jesus is the only one. If only people knew these stories go back long before the days of Christ.
I did learn something from this, however. The devil supposedly goes back in time and plants all the similar stories? Of course. How convenient.
MrStillmans 2 years ago
@MrStillmans and a new interpretation of the bible will be coming to a store near you will be released to the public that includes answers to all the questions the new testament did not fully explain. the neon bible! made even more convenient!!! :D
catcrapinahat 1 year ago
Testing
NurDebater 2 years ago
Comment removed
NurDebater 2 years ago
are u shitting me? You guys re-interpreted the bible AFTER scientific facts become clear. The world isn't shaped like an egg and embryo's don't start with bones and the flesh comes later. Already 2 facts in the bible incorrect. And yes I read the damn thing
BrutusAlbion 2 years ago 13
Comment removed
NurDebater 2 years ago
I like to refute Pascals wager like this:
What if god wants me to not believe in him and puts me in heaven if i dont believe in him? Sounds dumb? yes, just as dumb as christianity and just as likely.
I like it more, because if atheists say "why dont you believe in zeus or horus?" the christian just answers it is the same god. And then you have to waste time explaining that the traditions and rituals of those gods are different.
omnissient 2 years ago
Thanks for this series. I love reading about others' deconversions. It seems like our stories are (sadly) so often similar.
BoredInfidel 2 years ago 20
I love that bit in the bible where the so-called god killed all the first born, now that's a real loving god, I don't think.
krissyeh 2 years ago
Great video, I certainly hope that you produce the others. Thanks :)
emeralds222 2 years ago
I'm confused. If you were doing honest research about the Christian faith, then how did you come up with the LIES of Horus. This is a proven lie.
On another note, I know that God exists, and the Bible is only part of that reasoning. No circular reasoning here if you understand your faith.
chuber1979 2 years ago
'I know God exists' - a ridiculous statement. If you genuinely KNOW god exists then why watch this, there is nothing for you here
crisis123456789 2 years ago 2
Because I'd like to see the reasoning people give for leaving the faith. And he found reasoning, in many cases, where there is none. Like the Horus link, which was completely made up in the 20th century.
chuber1979 2 years ago
Blind faith is willful ignorance. You have to stop the Q-tip when there's resistance!
4me2cclearly 2 years ago
Who said anything about blind faith? Certainly not I.
Searching for links between Jesus and Horus and simply aren't there? What do you call that?
chuber1979 2 years ago
@chuber1979 - Well if you KNOW God exists then please share the evidence so that the rest of us who have been BEGGING for Faith heads to show us, can finally see it. I won't hold my breathe.
Punkinthepark1 2 years ago
can anyone tell me what the music is, it is beautiful
thebigeasy87 2 years ago
Love the video, your story is in many ways similar to mine, and I suspect others' as well.
One thing though, Blaise Pascal's name is pronounced "blaze" to rhyme with "prays", not "bla-zeh", which would be "blasé". ;)
PinkandDeadly 2 years ago
What are your sources about Isis, Krishna..etc?
ANS2Z 2 years ago
Heyo, anyone there who can give me a trustworhty source about the history of Horus in this context?
Schlachtbaum 2 years ago
As a child I thought of the bible as fiction I still do but I till wonder why my mom has such faith in so much ilogical things I try to reach her thorught qusions but she always gives me you must have faith you must have faith its as those she has closed her mind to qusions I think religen is a easy way out of whats really going on it the world
Inuyshathebom 2 years ago
I love the Carl Sagan quote ^_^
As for you, eflint1, I'm just now entering this comment section and am not going to bother reading all of your past comments (though I have read a few). Please watch the videos in my playlist called "Science" to understand what the current scientific view of reality really is.
And if you have any evidence or logical reason to believe in God, please share your knowledge and wisdom
JustinTheAtheist 2 years ago
Thank all of you for sharing with me. This is a VERY interesting discussion (though also admittedly very sad for me). But I'm hoping to learn some things I can share with others concerning your experiences.
eflint1 2 years ago
We think you're sad that you have convinced yourself that Christianity is okay, right and good when it so obviously is not. You've even admitted to "discernment", which seems like a way of saying you justify the bullshit in your own mind just to remain Christian.
BTW, we are not your lab rats and you really don't know enough to preach about us unless you choose to assume a lot (i.e. lie) and draw conclusions that fit your beliefs (i.e. more lying).
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
Just one more question for today, please.
How do your Christian family members treat you now that you've gone beyond just "backsliding" to actually feeling compelled to share your deconversion experiences with the world? In a sense, it seems like you guys are evangelists. How has this effected family relations?
Also, WHY do you feel compelled to share your stories in such a format?
eflint1 2 years ago
I wish to promote rationality, that is why I am here.
Why would you assume it has effected any family relations?
1RationalMind 2 years ago
Either it did or it didn't. I don't think you speak for all deconverts, though. I hope they will answer that question.
eflint1 2 years ago
You guys wouldn't believe in God if He appeared to you, because you still wouldn't be able to prove Him scientifically. You'd say it was just an hallucination or something. It's too bad that we only get a small space to try to post on here. But hey, one day you'll be believers. I'll remind you of all your posts on here. But if I'm wrong, you won't get to rub it in my face because we'll all be food for worms taking a dirt nap.
eflint1 2 years ago
So are you proclaiming yourself to be a Christian?
BTW, I used to be a Christian. I tried SO HARD to believe. But the lies, hypocrisy and contradiction in the Bible just didn't sit well with me.
Now, I do believe there is something beyond us. Something bigger. I just don't think it is that petty, vicious, vindictive, xenophobic, misogynistic God of Abraham. There is NO WAY the Divine is that mundane.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
Oh, and in case you didn't realize it......your post was chock full of superior attitude and snideness. Your assuredness borders on arrogance. It's especially offensive because it is just your BELIEF and has not one thing to do with KNOWLEDGE. You're attempting to pass of a personal faith as absolute truth and THAT is just plain wrong.
You don't KNOW anymore than anyone else.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
I just had a thought. What if we all get reincarnated? Will the act you've committed in this life gain you a better life next time? Or will you be a blind, legless beggar in Indonesia? Is your behavior right and good or is it merely within the bounds of Christianity?
There is quite a lot of anecdotal evidence for reincarnation from all over the world. It seems more likely than eternal salvation/damnation.
Don't you just LOVE food for thought? Or do you think?
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
You have allot of "assuredness" yourself there pal, especially when it comes to your attitude about me. You don't even know me and yet you paint me with such a broad brush. I don't see you holding the atheists here to the same standard you hold me to.
eflint1 2 years ago
The atheists haven't put for faith as truth as you did in your condescending little comment about believing in God.
They support their comments with science and research. You don't.
So yeah, I'm holding y'all to the same standard. You just don't think the standard is fair because faith has no standing.
Faith just means you've chosen to believe something without proof. Faith is not fact.
So really now, 'fess up....are you a Christian or not? Remember, if you are, you cannot deny it!
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
So it's OK for atheists to be snide then. Oh, I see. And you talked about Christian hypocrisy? And atheists use science to prove their belief that God doesn't exist?
eflint1 2 years ago
No, eflint1.
The label "Atheist" doesn't tell you *anything* whatsoever about a persons positive beliefs. They might not accept the Scientific method at all, although from my observations of atheists in general I would say most have a stronger appreciation for the natural sciences than Christians, on the whole, do.
Science is not used by anybody to prove beliefs about the non-existence of God. It just reveals evidence that suggests your brand of deity is non-existent.
Hope that's clear enough
deconverts 2 years ago
And i hopy you know that I'm just yankin your chain for the most part. "although from my observations of atheists in general I would say most have a stronger appreciation for the natural sciences than Christians, on the whole, do." We agree. "It just reveals evidence that suggests your brand of deity is non-existent." We do not agree. In fact.
eflint1 2 years ago
You cannot prove a negative. Science doesn't DISPROVE God so much as it explains what previously only had religious explanation. It is the religious who are so hypocritical as to claim science has it all wrong yet run to the doctor when they are ill or injured.
You're trying to hold faith up as equal to evidence when faith is ALL ABOUT belief without proof. Science is about belief with proof and that ideas can and do change.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
You did not answer my question I posed to you.
Why do you believe in God?
1RationalMind 2 years ago
I've seen PERSONALLY too many changed lives (mine included) for it all to be imaginary , my friend. Sure there are fakes and phonies as well. But in order for there to be a counterfeit, there has to be the real thing.
eflint1 2 years ago
Couldn't that change merely be attributed to the placebo effect? You THINK religion makes a difference so therefore it does? The power of the mind to affect change has been researched and noted.
Did you know that people will multiple personalities often have different illnesses that manifest with each personality? Conditions like diabetes, poor eyesight, high blood pressure, etc. appear in some personalities and disappear in others.
THAT isn't miraculous. It's mental.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
Given if what you've said is accurate and true:
How do you know that your observation is not the counterfeit and the Islamic changed lives are not the authentic?
How do you test the veracity and consistency of ideas? Of the world?
deconverts 2 years ago
Counterfeit is the wrong word to use. Fake, fraud and phony are appropiate. You don't have to have something real in order for there to be something fake. Alchemy, the supposed art/science of turning base metals into gold was an actual practice at one time. However, no one has ACTUALLY turned lead into gold, therefore, even though all alchemists were charlatans, there were no "real" alchemists to counter them.
Your statement fails.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
I don't claim to use perfect analogies. the reason i used the "counterfeit" analogy is because allot of former believers I know (now atheists) cite "phonies, hypocrites, etc" they encountered in churches. I was making the point that there are Christians who are not phonies. Interestingly enough, our minister preached about alchemists last week.
eflint1 2 years ago
You keep skirting the main point I've made several times that belief in a deity causing changes in people's live could possibly be due to the placebo effect. How do you dismiss this point? The mind is very powerful and prompt humans to acts of superhuman strength (i.e. a mother lifting a car off her child) with NO divine assistance called upon.
How do you address this?
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
How do you address drug addicts being instantly rehabilitated with no withdrawal symptoms?
eflint1 2 years ago
I already addressed that. The power of the mind. Or it's possible that person didn't actually have a physical addiction.
Now, address my point. Isn't it possible that all the supposed "miracles of faith" are merely a form of the placebo effect?
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
Belief can indeed change lives.
But that belief does not equal truth, and that is why we argue. Theists constantly try to pass off subjective experiences- feelings, internal thoughts and the like- as "proof".
It is not proof.
And I am not "your friend", please do not address me as such. Friendship takes time to build. Ciaochowbella is my friend, she is a wise and loving person, despite your opinion to the contrary.
1RationalMind 2 years ago
Ok, how about "my acquaintance"? Is that acceptable? Geesh. And I NEVER said that
ciaochowbella was NOT a loving, wise person. Where did you get that? Furthermore, I never said experiences were proof. I was asked WHY I believe and I explained that changed lives were a reason I believe. You see, i don't know your past religious experience (if any) and it's hard to have a dialog on YouTube's limited format. But I have noticed that many of the "unconverted" had bad experiences in church.
eflint1 2 years ago
1RationalMind didn't claim you said anything about me. He was making his own statement. Why so defensive?
Regardless of your opinion of me, you cannot deny that nearly every "miracle of faith" can be explained by other means. You do imply that personal experiences are proof. You said you've personally seen the changes. However, you continue to sidestep my assertion that those changes could merely be placebo effect and not evidence of a deity.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
Just what is this opinion I supposedly have of you? Sounds like you two are being defensive.
eflint1 2 years ago
Well, you're rather wishy-washy and tend to back up from making ACTUAL statements of faith, but it seems that you dismiss science as fact and accept faith as proof.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
You've attempted to condescend to me and you've attributed your own behavior to me. You've been dismissive and patronizing. You've told me you didn't HAVE to answer my questions, yet demanded I answer yours.
In short, you've been rude, snotty, arrogant and pedantic and took immediate umbrage if I gave back as good as I got.
You're threatened by me and assumptive.
Did that cover it?
Now, offer me the same courtesey I've offered you and answer MY questions.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
I'm afraid we're at an impasse because the feeling is mutual. I perceived your initial attitude toward me to be how you just described mine towards you. My apologies. That certainly wasn't my intention (to be rude). Start over?
eflint1 2 years ago
eflint1, I think ciaochowbella, 1RationalMind - and me - want you to actually start answering some of the questions that all of us (and others) have asked. We have all answered your posed questions whereas you have sidestepped everything being asked of you.
If you wish to debate, this is a good place for it. If you wish to preach, please do it on your own channel. This is not the place for it.
deconverts 2 years ago
Back to the attitude,huh? This is what I was referring to, giving orders. You don't want to have a dialogue. You want to debate. You are not just an unbeliever, but I sense a real undercurrent of hostility in you towards the things of God. I am sincerely just trying to have an understanding of how you think, what makes you tick. You obviously don't want to talk about your past experiences. Fine. Don't.
eflint1 2 years ago
You don't want to have a dialog. You ask questions and expect answers yet don't offer the same courtesey.
If you want me to get nasty, church boy, I certainly can. My refusing your fake olive branch was merely recognizing your falsity for what it was.
Either answer questions or quit asking them.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
You were a little hasty in your tirade there, weren't you? Tsk Tsk While you were baring your teeth I was typing an answer to your question. You lack patience.
eflint1 2 years ago
You lack verve and force of conviction. I've asked those questions repeatedly and you've avoided them. Now you dismiss the possibility.
You're not interested in discourse. You want to preach and/or interrogate. You don't want to exchange ideas. You want to try to poke hole in supposed theories.
And no, I wasn't "hasty". It has taken you 2 days to answer the first question and most of today to answer the second. Don't congratulate yourself for tardiness and sidestepping.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
Let's be truthful here, shall we?
1. You have asked many loaded questions with a view to pushing your propaganda. You haven't answered any.
2. A dialog, a debate = same thing.
3. You are the one who is not working constructively to have a discussion. Everything you say here is completely one-sided. You answer nothing, you discuss nothing.
You obviously are only interested in pushing your beliefs and you obviously don't want to have an intelligent discussion. Good luck with your blind belief.
deconverts 2 years ago
Yes, I've viewed your videos. Aren't you the one narrating the video on this page? Yes, I'd say you are 'damaged goods" from the church (in one sense). I mean, what kind of cult would tell a young man that God doesn't want Him to study for His exams? Sadly, you also fell prey to the Brownsville crap. You saw through the sham, but I think it was a turning point in your life that helped lead to your deconversion. I've been taught as a Christian to be skeptical, and analyze everything. DISCERNMENT
eflint1 2 years ago
I knew from our earlier conversation that you'd bring about the discussion about discernment. I wish you would take it one step further and analyse (for real this time) why your beliefs are true and see if you can actually justify them.
Whilst seeing problems in the church was a motivating factor, it isn't the reason. The brownsville people for instance might discern that your particular sect of xtianity is the wrong one and that you're deluded.
Who is right? How can we tell?
deconverts 2 years ago
"Who is right? How can we tell?" I'll defer to your logic on that one. How can we tell? COMMON SENSE ("God given", of course.(lol) You don't have to even be super spiritual to see through crap like that. But Christians feel guilty if they have doubts, when I feel it's God speaking to them through their own consciences saying "This ain't of me".
eflint1 2 years ago
Your common sense argument holds no water. What is common in one culture, like arranged marriage, is abhorrent in another. What is considered right in one faith, say mutilating the genitals of children, is considered heinous in another.
Common sense ain't common. Try again.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
Then what do you do with the human conscience? Even evolutionists believe in the conscience. I've seen their books on the subject. The genital mutilates do have a conscience, and it does tell them they are wrong. They just choose to ignore it. Their conscience becomes burned out.
eflint1 2 years ago
That's a cop out. Those people ACTUALLY believe they are doing right. Common sense and decency are subjective to culture and religion.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
So you disagree then with evolutionists who expound on the human conscience? You think these people NEVER had even a tingle of uncertainty the first time they witnessed or actually aided in a mutilation?
eflint1 2 years ago
I never said I disagree or agree about the human conscience according to evolutionists.
What I am saying is that right and wrong are cultural norms and NOT common to all humanity. IF conscience is genetic, and there are doubts about that, it's possible that it only extends to the basics of survival for the individual, its offspring and tribe or group. I'm sure the fine points of conscience are NOT genetically imposed.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
I should also say I deconverted in 2007. The Brownsville trip was in 1998. I didn't see through anything at the time as to be frank, I first had to learn how to learn.
I'm pretty sure my videos cover it. There are more planned, I don't intend them to be preachy but if you want to get into the mind of a deconvert, go ahead and check them out as they come.
deconverts 2 years ago
Discernment, you say? How much? Just enough to keep god in the picture? And what if discernment pushes god out?
You asked me if I think I am a good person. I asked you to objectively define "good".
Can you?
Or will you accept a "prepackaged" answer as to what is "good", one with no basis in provable fact at all?
Can you answer MY questions?
1RationalMind 2 years ago
Personally, I think you're beyond good. You're great.
But I'm biased.
*winks*
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
Many thanks, mon amant...
The feeling is indeed mutual, you are rather amazing as well! :)
*Muah*
1RationalMind 2 years ago
You can't unring a bell. I'm fine with things as they are since I wasn't hostile and I was just letting you be your unpleasant self. You can be nice or not. Makes no difference to me.
Now, you have STILL not answered the questions.....are you a Chrisitan? Is it possible the the placebo effect and the power of the mind explain "miracles of faith"?
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
I've seen both. I've been a Christian since 1980. There is NOTHING I haven't seen. If my faith was in people or the "religious establishment" then I would have unconverted long ago. I'm not popular in some circles because I tell it like it is and expose hypocrisy, hype, and abuse in the so called "church". I've seen the "placebo effect" you've mentioned. I've also seen the real McCoy. The placebo effect can't produce a "miracle". It's effects soon wear off and the victim is left hanging.
eflint1 2 years ago
NOTHING you haven't seen?
Dark side of the moon too?
My goodness, it must be grand to be omnipotent.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
Correction: omniscient.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
There is NOTHING I haven't seen when it comes to garbage in churches. But of course, you know that is what I meant. Now are you going to start intentionally misrepresenting me as well, or creating straw men tyo argue with?
eflint1 2 years ago
Unlike you, I don't presume what isn't written. I didn't know that was what you meant. Clarity will help prevent confusion.
However, if the church is so corrupt, why bother with it anyway? Why MUST you believe in that particular God? Why not just an unnamed deity? Frankly, I always thought it was supreme arrogance to clain the know the name of God in the first place.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
"You take yourself a bit too seriously. Your attitude demonstrates an insecurity in your beliefs"
Yes, I am defensive of my friends. Ciaochowbella is most definitely NOT insecure about her beliefs. She has proven that to me.
Allow me to rephrase my question to you-
Why should I believe in the Biblical god? Not a creator, mind you- but the Biblical god.
Why? What rational cause can you give to support promoting such a belief to me?
1RationalMind 2 years ago
Do you consider yourself to be a good person/
eflint1 2 years ago
You're hitting me with The Way of the Master! :)
Seriously. LOL.
deconverts 2 years ago
I knew you'd like that one! LOL I would have been shocked if you had not heard that one before. But i couldn't resist. But i have to do something to get you to lighten up. but i would like to know more about your background. How did you come to your conclusions about Christianity/religion/ God? What was your experience in the "church".
eflint1 2 years ago
I know this move too. I think it's highly likely that you haven't actually watched my videos?
Do you know why I'm laughing at The Way of the Master? Do you see why it is the most foolishly, ridiculously poor argumentation or are you genuinely trying it on?
I see your tactic now for what it is and I will call you on it. I am not damaged goods from the church and do not have "hurt" and "pain" from the church that I'm having to rebel about.
I have the T-shirt that you wear many times over.
deconverts 2 years ago
Why is that so many Christians see those who have forsaken Christianity as damaged goods? I left because I couldn't deal with the lies, hypocrisy and contradictions of the Bible. The VERY things you enumerated in your video are things I struggled with for years.
It's not always about pain. Sometimes it's about good sense.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
Simple answer to that one.
To acknowledge that a deconvert (pardon the pun) is all round happier, posesses greater independance and thinking potential, has a tighter grip on science, philosophy, and humanism is somewhat abhorrant. The unbelievers have to be negatively portrayed as it's the only way to make the church look like the bringer of light.
The thing is, the church is really a real solution. But it's a solution to a problem that it alone creates.
deconverts 2 years ago
WE AGREE!! I can't blame you! Somehow I was blessed enough to be under leaders who taught me to be skeptical and discerning. Some say "You JUDGING, brother!" You better believe I am! that's probably why I didn't deconvert years ago myself. So I can't help but wonder about all of you, where would you be if you had been in a church that taught you to be "analytical Christians"( which is an oxymoron in many cases)?
eflint1 2 years ago
Actually, it was my mother, the teacher, who taught me to be analytical. The church told me to never question its teachings....even when they contradicted themselves. The church was the one who made me feel guilty and wrong even when I'd done nothing to feel that way. I was NOT born in sin. I did NOT need salvation. And I do NOT have to be grateful for a blood sacrifice that was committed 2000 years ago to supposedly save me. I'm better than that and I don't need religious sanction to know it.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
So you've NEVER sinned? You've NEVER violated your own conscience?
eflint1 2 years ago
Not since I quit being Christian. Before then, it was just the rules of the church I was violating.
I've never stolen, never killed, never gone against my personal code of ethics.
I have had sex, lied, smoked weed, gotten drunk and danced naked with strange men.....however, if you're not burdened with the weight of desert dogma and patriarchy, those things aren't sins.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
You won't like this, but at some point your conscience will tell you these things are wrong, even without church rules being thrown at you.
eflint1 2 years ago
Why would that happen? There is nothing inherently wrong with any of those things. Why would I suddenly decide they are wrong if I'm not hurting anyone?
You just wish and hope it happens so I conform to your patriarchal paradigm.
I'm too sure of my feminine power to kowtow to male dominance.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
LOL This ain't about conforming to anything 'patriarchal". You are really giving me some clues, though, as to how you arrived where you are today . This was just another piece of the puzzle.
eflint1 2 years ago
Oh, yes it is. The WHOLE of Christianity is about ownership of women to insure the paternity of children. In the OT, women found not to be virgin on their wedding nights were stoned. Women are admonished to be silent in church and recieve instruction from their husbands. Most denominations don't allow females to become pastors or priests.
If you think Christianity isn't chock full of misogyny, you're blind and crazy.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
You just describe OT Judaism, not Christianity. And where does the Bible say a woman can't pastor? If you knew the isolated context of the "keep silent in church", you would know it's often taken out of context. But since when are "lying, smoking weed and getting drunk" paternal issues anyway?
eflint1 2 years ago
Lying is occasionally necessary.
Smoking weed and getting drunk are not "ladylike".
If Christians weren't supposed to refer to the OT, then why is it there? Why are the laws there? Because they are meant to be followed.
If you refuse to see the misogyny of Christianity, it's because it suits your purposes.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
The nature of the questions you ask (and they are valid) demonstrates clearly how your spiritual leaders failed to reach you jack.
eflint1 2 years ago
Maybe the CAN'T teach me jack shit because there is nothing there for me to learn.
I read the Bible myself. It's piffle.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
A prominent JEWISH leader named Paul spent allot of time explaining why certain things in the Mosaic Law don't apply to us today. If you weren't taught that, then you weren't taught the Bible.
eflint1 2 years ago
Paul was a shill for Rome.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
Oh sure. That's we he gave up his wealthy Roman lifestyle, his secure place of leadership in the Judean puppet regime and lived like a beggar after inventing an imaginary encounter with some Jesus cat who never existed. Yeah, makes perfect sense to me.
eflint1 2 years ago
If you believe all that, I've got some land to sell you.
Besides, who was Paul to contradict Jesus? He did, you know. Paul was a charlatan and a faker. He DID invent his encounter with GOD (he didn't say Jesus) and proceeded to lie his ass off for his Roman bosses in order to gain control of the Jesus freaks.
It worked too. Look at you....kowtowing to the book they constructed and believing the lies they fed you.
You've been duped.
ciaochowbella 2 years ago
Oh it worked, huh? That's why he lived a good chunk of his latter years in a hole and was finally beheaded. Sounds like you've been duped. But as you told me, maybe it "suits your purposes" to believe what you believe. But again, thanks for sharing and giving me a greater insight to your philosophy. I hope for your sake that you are right. If not, I'll come introduce myself at the Great White Throne Judgment . :)
eflint1 2 years ago
There is room on this channel for:
1. Discussion.
2. Debate.
3. Intellectual Honesty.
Since you haven't done any of the above, you refuse to answer basic questions about your faith all the while acting like some supreme interrogator and you have little to offer past Way of The Master and Pascals Wager (all debunked already and you know it) then you proceed to make threats and lie your ass of for Jesus, you're just preaching.
And preaching = block. Enjoy your blind faith.
deconverts 2 years ago 5
Would you like to understand my philosophy and what science really states? Check out my comment from 16 minutes ago, and check out my channel.
JustinTheAtheist 2 years ago
I don't think that a god who hides his existence at every turn possible, would judge a man for his honest search for truth.
Although, the Christian/Judaistic and Islamic gods would, according to their corresponding scripture anyhow. After all, they are purported to be unfair, judgmental, hypocritical, and so on within their own "word."
I have a similar story; if god is going to judge me for doing my best with what I have been given (as you say), then I truly want no part of him anyway.
TheDrunkard1 2 years ago
First of all, God does not hide His existence from those who will INVITE Him into their lives. This thinh is on HIS terms, not yours. Secondly, our own "goodness" will never atone for sins we have committed. That is why Christ died in our place as our substitute. Like Cain, man wants to please God his own way. Christ's offer of eternal life is ALL INCLUSIVE. ANYONE can receive it.
eflint1 2 years ago
I understand your perspective; I was born into and raised Christian, thinking of myself as such for nearly all my life.
However, there are just too many holes in scripture, too many contradictions between real-morality (do unto others) and the actions of this god, and the world and we are too imperfect (as you've pointed out to a degree) to have come from a "perfect" being. Perfection cannot create imperfection, neither would it need anything, nor have anything to accomplish; Else it is not.
TheDrunkard1 2 years ago
Ok, since this thread has gone on for ages nobody minds if i Godwin the thingy.
By this reasoning;
Hitler in his bunker sees the light, invites Jesus and runs out into the street to share the great news of his saviour! Alas, a russian bomb explodes and little Adolf goes up to the pearly gates to sit next to Jesus in heaven.
A good and honest man however is cast into the flames, cause he didn't accept Jesus. He happened to be born into judeaism...
How can anyone defend this?
LeafHuntress 2 years ago
What you described is not Biblical. Someone like Hitler would not just "see the light". Jesus said that we can't come unto Him unless the Father draws us. The fruit of Hitler's life is evidence that he shut the door on God years before and had crossed that point of no return. His mind was reprobate. As for the "honest man", I'm sorry but ALL have sinned, and the wages of sin is death. But he, like anyone else, can stop depending on his own righteousness and turn to Christ alone. His choice.
eflint1 2 years ago
Stop blabbering out of your ass. Jesus is a myth... GET OVER IT!
The more you dig to try and find evidence that there even ever was a "Jesus", the more you find there is none.
Let's face it... there are people who wished to dupe us for thousands of years and have succeeded.. But also there have been doubters of this truth for thousands of years too. And now, there are more and more non-believers than ever before .. why? Because of one thing and one thing only... : It isn't true
emeralds222 2 years ago
And where is YOUR proof that Jesus never existed. There are more BELIEVERS than ever before. There are MILLIONS of testimonies of inexplicably changed lives. They all can't be wrong. Be a non-believer if you like. But keep your rude comments to yourself, please.
eflint1 2 years ago
When you make claims, you insult others because you refuse to look into the matter and truly are pompous and assholish if there is such a word.
If there were a zillion people on Mars and they all believed in Ooogah... goddess of fertility that lived on Earth's moon, and you had been to the moon, then ALL WOULD BE WRONG.
So YES, they can all be wrong and indeed they are wrong.
You are the rude one here as you love to bear false witness against others. You don't care SQUAT about truth!
emeralds222 2 years ago
"If there were a zillion people on Mars".... If,if,if.......
Well, there actually ARE millions of people who believe in the historical figure known as Jesus. There are millions more that have more than a "belief" but who have actually had an encounter with him. You can't take way someone's experience. When He found me, i wasn't lonely or depressed or looking for something. I was enjoying my sin and wanted more. You think I would just give up all the "fun" based on a "belief" in a religion?
eflint1 2 years ago
"When He found me" is a delusional statement based on NOTHING but fantasy.
The MYTH declares "He" sees all. Do you "LOVE" your 'JESUS" when you are in the throes of sexual intercourse? or other sexual things? Really? DOES HE SEE YOU THEN?
You are a f--d up moron that is only spouting off because you feel it is your duty to do so. Yet, your "Jesus" is about truth and NOT fantasy. So GROW UP and FOLLOW if you so declare and start being honest for a change you hypocritical liar.
emeralds222 2 years ago
And by the way, if you ARE a non-believer, it is much more difficult than being one especially if you live among the deluded. These claims of yours of "enjoying sin and wanted more" are bogus and full of crap. Truth simply is, there is nothing victorious about it. We have just started discovering our neighborhood in a vast vast Galaxy called the Milky way which is part of perhaps TRILLIONS of other galaxies... we are tiny & very small.. you are delusional.
emeralds222 2 years ago
Boy, you talk about people acting like "A-holes" (as you put it). FYI, I shout "Thank you God for inventing sex!" every time I'm bangin' my wife! So now I'm a liar? I didn't enjoy my sin as I said? You are a very flustered, frustrated person. You have a need to feel superior, so you embrace this "enlightenment" of atheism to feel good about y