I rather have the Minimum Wage at $5 hr and gas prices at $1.20 like they used to be in the 90's. The working man is screwed now these days, wait till this summer when gas prices hit $6. Think about it
I live in California, and I can't tell you how many times I've seen perfectly good crops which had already been grown get destroyed because the landowners can't afford to pay the workers to pick them.
Can $5 support a person? can $1 support a person? people already work multiple jobs trying to support themselves, what would lowering minimum wage do for them.
@mxdirector It is immoral to use a weapon to get what you want. Period. End of sentence.
I can easily demonstrate the damage caused by using force to ban people from working. The math is quite trivial, but I doubt you will accept actual evidence as long as you believe in violence.
What the hell are you talking about. Nothing you said there makes any sense. banning people from working? guns? believing in violence. what the hell? Did you accidentally respond to the wrong person?
@1963danno ...Nope...you are forgetting the law of supply and demand...and the right to liberty that the employee has to go elsewhere and find more favourable conditions in the market. And employers and employees agree on what's a just wage everyday. In a free market the free individual is king and can pick and choose amongst many alternatives while the providers have to scramble to satisfy the individuals wants if they are to gain value themselves. The state however uses force to deny choice.
@1963danno that unemployment will steadily rise given the fact that while it may have seemed negligible before if for some reason the SoL drops (during a recession or depression) the cost of doing business with rise, costs of goods will rise etc will rise. Look at unemployment right now. The government just erased people off what they deem as 'unemployed' to get the number down to an 'acceptable' level. The fact of the matter is regulations cripple business and the economy.
@1963danno If you raise the minimum wage above the SoL you will find people going out of a job because the minimum wage is no above the standard of living and as such businesses will retain only the most efficient workers or go out of business because they can't afford to pay above the standard of living in a given area. Sure, companies maybe able to afford paying their workers for some time (if they saved) however, the fact remains that if you raise the minimum wage above the SoL you will find
@1963danno What I think is fair? How about employees and employers deciding how much they want to make and how much they want to pay. There is plenty of proof that the minimum wage hurts the economy.. if it didn't then the minimum wage can be 20 dollars right now and there would not be mass unemployment. The fact of the matter is the minimum wage cuts out the kids who could work (high school drop outs etc) yet the number is negligible -if- you raise the minimum wage with the SoL.
@1963danno The fact of the matter is I did, you expected me to know exactly what you were talking about when your statement implies the last 10 years. It did not say, there was a time where the minimum wage was not raised for at least 10 years. You didn't specify what you were saying and you expected me to assume you meant that when the wording you used did not imply that in the slightest.
@1963danno "It hasn't been raised for ten years." The fact of the matter is you said that it hasn't been raised in ten years.. when I told you it was raised in 2007 you went back and said well I meant from 1997 to 2007. The fact of the matter is you DID NOT specify what years you were talking about. you were talking about the last 10 years with your statement. See what happens when you aren't specific. Expecting me to know what years you are talking about is asinine.
Liberterians should practice what they preach. If they like unbridled capitalism so much, where there are no checks, regulations and balances, move to China and earn your living there. But I doubt privileged and sheltered whites would adapt to a $0.5/hour lifestyle.
I don't know what number would be 'just right'. I don't think in your terms that there should be a minimum wage or a maximum earnings. I'm sure that -any- minimum wage is a detriment to the economy.
Also, like you're saying what number is 'just right' when I haven't advocated a number at all is simply asinine.
@1963danno Again, no shit it has.. who has it had an effect on the most. The people at the minimum wage levels or the people in the corporate world? Are you seriously that blind?
@1963danno By implying that it isn't a contractual relationship by saying it's slave wages. Something that people like you don't understand about the market or how wages works calls contractual relationships 'slavery'.
@1963danno You said the last 10 years. You did not specify what years you were talking about nor did we specify what years we were talking about in the first place. Either you are a liar or you are intellectually dishonest. So, I'll call you intellectually dishonest for trying to cover your ass when someone called you out on it.
@1963danno btw, acting like a job isn't a contractual relationship is also another mistake. You're assuming that the cost of goods would remain the same while the wages go down. To put it simply the business would only hurt itself by hurting the buying power of their employees. If their employees can't afford the product then many others won't be able to either. As such you have businesses try to lower the cost of their goods/services so more people can buy it. Regulations don't help though.
@1963danno Actually minimum wage was raised back in 2007 in the US.. are you going to continue to make lies? The fact of the matter is you don't even see how stupid your own argument is until it is taken to an absurdity. The argument still holds true though.. what is the 'perfect' minimum wage? It's an unanswerable question so why are you having the government forcing it? Why not no minimum wage at all? While we're at it how about no regulations either. You think workers are stupid.
@1963danno So, the minimum wage has no effect on employment then? Why keep it at 7.25 hmm? Why not 30 dollars an hour? How about 100? Do you see how stupid your argument is yet?
I agree, however, you forgot to mention that the people WILLING to work for minimum wage now have no need of minimum wage because they are "drawing a check from government assistance", reproducing at a rapid rate and getting healthcare for little to nothing, which they would never get with a minimum wage job. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. First time in American history, there are more people drawing a check than working to earn one!
@1963danno What has caused the most unemployment? Ding ding ding.. The minimum wage by cutting out an entire section of workers that could have been hired below the wage rate are now immediately either without a job or cannot get one.
I'd rather make money than not make money.. however I would not use the threat of violence or death to make all companies pay everyone 5 dollars either.
Yes you should have money! You should make $.5 an hour and toil all your days like a slave while those poor, poor corporations who are out for our public welfare and interest get to give you jobs at their expense. How sad for the corporations that they have to bear the burden of feeding the people!
@Sniper2008009 You're sadly mistaken if you think you aren't a slave by the amount of money you make. You're a slave to the government the government doesn't care about you at all. The only incentive they have to make sure you are happy are when you vote idiots into office. It's not surprising that you don't see that businesses do care about the people they serve while believing (wrongly) that the government serves the 'general' welfare.
@Sniper2008009 Corporations can afford it.. yet you never thought of the Mom and Pop shops that have to deal with your stupidity when it comes to the minimum wage laws right?
Sure DeathSetX, people should just earn a pittance while owners literally exploit their workers until they bleed to death. I've got to love armchair analysts who have no real clue about reality and how the world works, while only basing their paradigm on flawed theories. While we're at it, we should also do away with labor laws that limits the maximum hours of work in a day and rest days. But you don't want that in your sheltered little world do you?
@Sniper2008009 Sniper, you have given nothing contrary to the fact that the system you advocate is not only terribly flawed it leads to the things that you are complaining about. Corporations own the government, yet government made corporations and passes laws that help corporations over small business. Never mind the fact that corporations can afford all of the crippling regulations so they of course come out on top. You are blind to the fact that it wasn't laws that led to a better life cont.
Wow, I'm centrist. I don't believe in either extremes and I don't believe a wholly capitalistic/socialistic society. Thank you for strawmanning me and thank you for wasting my time. It is obvious you don't know what you're talking about and don't even have a clue about history and the industrial revolution; how workers suffered, how they worked 12 hour shifts without dayoffs and how slaves had it better than wage earners (in fact it was used by pro-slavery for their arguments).
But it just shows though that you are indeed an armchair analyst. You need to realize there is no such thing as a "free market" situation. Even educated economists agree with this fact, this is simply used as an assumption in their theories to show their theorems and models. Hence the term "economics is a dismal science". Get a clue, and stop analyzing from your armchair.
@Sniper2008009 Coming from the person who has done absolutely zero research about the industrial revolution and history it is plain to see that you have not reached past grade school level education in those subjects. The fact that you compare apples to oranges rather than oranges to oranges and apples to apples. In point of fact you say all of these 'terrible things happened' and yet you completely miss out on the fact that 40 years prior people worked all day doing their job. Mirror again fool
@Sniper2008009 Centrist? You kidding me? You have argued here that the minimum wage is a great thing that that it should be raised. You say you are a 'centrist' but your philosophy has pushed towards more and more socialism. It's obvious that you don't know how to do comparative analysis. The fact of the matter is you can't take what we have now and compare it to 100 years ago and say oh man the factories were terrible. That's obvious to anyone. However, was 100 years ago better than 150? yes.
Yes child, I'm centrist and I don't swing to either extremes because it's stupid. Move along little child, your armchair analysis and blatant ignorance of the industrial revolution and the abuses done by industrialists against laborers is laughable.
@Sniper2008009 People in the market made life better for everyone. You talk about reality and 'how the world works' yet you advocate the things that brought us here. You say that deregulation caused our problems when there wasn't any deregulation in the first place (especially since it's not deregulation if the government controls it already). Talk about arm chair analysis it's people like you that help with the destruction of our way of life.
@Sniper2008009 Btw, Yes we should do away with labor laws that limit the maximum hours people can work in a day. If they want to work 12 hours and get paid for 12 hours then good for them, who are you to stop them or their company from handing out more hours for workers? Geez, so much for being a pro-worker.. not only do you want them to work less and get paid more.. you don't even want to let them choose what hours they want to work or not.
"If they want to work 12 hours and get paid for 12 hours then good for them"
That's why there is this thing called "overtime pay" nitwit. Labor laws such as maximum hours worked make sure laborers are not exploited. You have no clue about the industrial revolution do you? And yes, you are indeed an armchair analyst since you have no clue about reality and how the real world works, while only voicing out opinions on your sheltered suburban home in your comfy little armchair.
By the way, I also see you walk the walk, but I don't see you talk the talk. If you really like unbridled capitalism so much, please move to China where labor laws are practically non-existent and workers have no rights. Post videos on youtube so we can see armchair analysts like you taste how the real world works outside of their comfy and sheltered 1st world suburban homes.
@Sniper2008009 Overtime pay gives an incentive to employers to NOT schedule anyone past whatever mark would not be considered overtime. Obviously you're oblivious to the obvious. "maximum hours worked make sure laborers are not exploited" No, it's to force employers to higher more people than they would necessarily need because not only are the workers limited to how many hours they can work by virtue that there is no incentive for employers to actually schedule any overtime.
@Sniper2008009 Obviously you have no clue about the industrial revolution since you're making typical remarks from someone that has absolutely no education when it comes to economics. Your ad hom attacks are completely meaningless to the arguments that you are presenting. The fact of the matter is, you're wrong.. you know you're wrong so, because I've backed you into a corner you have to attack. You talk about 'reality' and 'the real world' yet everything you suggest has already proven to be
@Sniper2008009 terrible in reality. While your philosophy may seem great on paper it is ultimately flawed by the fact that men aren't angels and we don't have crystal balls to see into the future. Your fantasy land that it's because of the government we have the things we have now discounts the hundreds of thousands of people that not only thought of these things before government got involved, but also paved the way for what we have now in spite of what government has done. Yet that is gone now
I agree with Jacob. It's sad, I know, but I know people specifically that refuse to work for minimum wage. These people have neither a degree, nor a special skill. A lot of people don't have jobs,because they think they are better than minimum wage, I've seen it personally.
It has been found that by having a minimal wage this can help an economy to grow. Poor people tend to spend most of their money and this gives companies a good source of revenue when they buy their products.
How is wealth created? Please submit your answers. This is the most important economic question and it has a very simple answer. If you cannot answer the question, you do not understand enough about economics to make a judgement on any economic viewpoint.
And yet minimum wage here in Ontario is at $10.25/hr, one of the highest rates in North America, with an unemployment rate at around 7%. In America, however, it is 9%.
@PSNLanceManley Minimum Wage only has an adverse effect on the economy when the Minimum Wage is set above the average wage paid. For instance a few years ago Minimum Wage was a little over 5 dollars. It did not negatively affect the country because the average a business would pay was around or a little above that wage set. However when you set a wage above the average then it damages an economy. Imagine if, in Ontario, they decided to bump Minimum Wage to 20.50/hr to see my point.
@YaHuWaHservant I agree, if minimum wage were set too high it would be damaging to the economy. Much like any extreme is damaging. However my point was to debunk the claim made in this video that any form of minimum wage is damaging, which is certainly not the case.
@PSNLanceManley Any form of minimum wage is damaging as it always becomes a scapegoat for Government intervention in the market. Minimum Wage is only ever good when it is set at a rate where it does no harm, defeating the point of having it, however in tough economic times minimum wage always hinders the markets ability to straighten itself out.
@MetalEdge56 If can afford a house, food, clothes, etc then I would take the job. You get so hung up on the amount without taking into consideration buying power of your money. You also fail to take into account how unemployment is increased by the Minimum wage. I, don't know about you, am an adult. I am quite capable of making my own deals on how much I will work for without a babysitting government.
@MetalEdge56 Compare apples to oranges. do you know how much money they get in their own currency for that 50 cents? Btw, they don't make 50 cents an hour it's rumored that they are paid on average 5 dollars a day.. which if we rework your math they are making less than 50 cents a day however, the 5 dollars they make when converted to Yuan (which is about 6.4 to 1 USD.. which is 32 Yuan a day which in 30 days hits the minimum wage of chinese laws and is on par with the Chinese Standard of living
On a theoretical level, you are correct. In the real world, however, you are completely wrong.
Economists agree that the negative effect of a minimum wage on jobs is minimal at best. The problem with your scenario is this, most employers are paying more than minimum wage for entry level positions so the minimum wage argument is non existent.
What the minimum wage does hurt, is the ability to apprentice.
@Landrar Economists agreed that there was no housing bubble.. they are hardly the types of people to say that the effect is 'minimal' at best when they completely ignore potential.
@D34thSetX The hell are you talking about? Economists everywhere were screaming warnings about the housing bubble in 2005. It was govt officials that denied the existance of it.
@Landrar Economists everywhere? No, only a few schools namely Chicago and Austrian schools of economics warned about the housing bubble in 2002-3. The fact that there were other economists 'screaming' warnings about housing bubble in 2005 were people like Krugman who said the government should create a housing bubble.
If a man must hold two or three jobs in order to survive off of minimal wages, which is what lowering the minimum wage would do, then there is still a high level of unemployment, and a lower level of living-wage employment.
The only way reason why companies wouldn't want the minimum wage is because they want to pay their employees less than minimum wage. YOU try living off of minimum wage, and then tell me that people don't need that much. It is meant to protect the worker. It is meant to ensure that a job provides at least a minimal standard of living. I understand that lowering the minimum wage allows more jobs to be created, but it also forces minimum wage employees to have multiple jobs, increasing unemployment
You ignore the fact that individual employees have little power on their own. An employer can choose any wage and the employee will have to work at it because one person can do nothing about it. It is only if they come together in a union or if the government decides a minimum wage that they can get a fair wage
I'd like to make a suggestion. As long as the value of currency is not uniform there will be no way to compete with foreign labor for which one dollar is worth five in a global economy, the big players in our economy will always outsource jobs as long as the cost of training labor and shipping goods can be justified.
The only way US workers will ever compete with the Chinese is if we devalue our currency and worsen our working conditions. Do you want that?
@FreeTheWorker Only for the short term China is facing a problem with their tactics. The yuan is artificially kept at low value so as to promote trade and the outsorce of foreign investments to China. However because of this theyre economic status boomed at a rate that the value of the yuan could not sustain. the yuan will suffer inflation like it is now. China is in the midst of an inflation and the bubble will burst soon. This is why there is growing dissent and the start of jasmine rebellion
@iggsta3o5 That's true, China's currency can't be kept artificially low for much longer especially with all the scrutiny on them. But there will always be places where a dollar can buy a lot more than a soda, the only way to compete with labor in those countries is to devalue our currency and work in the same often inhumane conditions.
Which is one of the many reasons more workers need to form cooperatives and go to work for themselves, you make more and have better job security that way.
@FreeTheWorker Not really if we get rid of our capital gains tax and leave taxation to the state as well as income tax we would be able to attract high skilled investors to the states this would bring an influx of jobs free trade would also be beneficial Nafta at least had part of it right. even if there is a country that devalues its own currency we can still take enough of the market share this way to allow job stimulus for years to come
@iggsta3o5 I'm sure if we got rid of all our taxes tomorrow suddenly all those nice business men would be willing to pay more for American workers even though their dollar would be worth more in other markets simply due to the currency value.
@iggsta3o5 By the way when have tax cuts ever created jobs? I'm completely against taxes as they currently exist as far as I'm concerned any taxes that aren't voluntary equal theft, but this economic idiom that all would be well if we only cut taxes, it's not working out. The last 12 years have been practically nothing but tax cuts, the savings haven't trickled down.
@FreeTheWorker tax cuts do not create jobs niether does spending they only encourage investment bush tax cuts actually fostered revenues but his disasterous spending in foreign wars over shadowed those revenues with debt raegans tax cuts promoted investment and rasied revenues even kennedy eisenhower and truman severely cut taxes. if kennedy would have run for president today he would be shunned since he would sound like a republican. Tax cuts are a bandaid what is needed is tax reform withless
@FreeTheWorker taxes and the states should be the taxer not the fed the only federal tax im willing to spend is defense tax. We dont get rid of all the taxes just the ones that are unconstitutional. Like direct taxes on wages. Lower taxes to be competative in the global market. By the way even with a tax rate of 39 percent on corporations the middle class is still the most taxed of all with job loss from taxation falling heavily on small business.
@iggsta3o5 There's nothing unconstitutional about those taxes, in fact Article 1 Section 8 Explicitly allows the government to levy such taxes, and even if you eliminated all taxes tomorrow most of America's economic problems aren't caused by taxes. Now I happen to hold the position that any tax that isn't voluntary is theft, and that includes the defense tax, but big businesses aren't going to stop outsourcing jobs just because we cut taxes when the value of currency varies between countries.
So I should tell my job to pay me like 2 bucks an hr and instead of making 20,000 a year me and my kids can be happy with 3,000 a year. Come on even if a company had high demand if they could they would still try to pay us like 30 cent an hr company's don't care about the employees
@ernesdee2o916 Like raising the minimum wages, unions is another way to artificially give people raises and limit employment to the unskilled. Unions are responsible for inflation of goods and services by offering higher wages and benefits that is bargained w/o looking at the level of monies made or lost particularly in the govt unions. "Raise the taxes to pay for govt union workers," leftist officials would say. Socialism works only when the taxpayers are prosperous.
But people will likely have a self set minimum wage in order to be employed, because they want to have a standard of living that they feel that they have earned covered. And finding a job is a full time job. If I set myself up to work at a $7.50/hour lifestyle, I will not likely work for less if my company has to lay me off because I will already have fixed costs that reflect my $7.50/hour lifestyle. Better to risk longer unemployment and look for a job full time, than settle for less.
@jnick1980 You're confusing the issue, wealth does create jobs. Jobs are created by initial investment. Those workers wouldn't have had jobs if Henry Ford didn't put forth the money and risk a lot of his money to make those jobs, the fact they he prospered sustained those jobs, if he had made an improper investment he would have been very poor, no matter the number of workers he had. Lots of companies go under with many workers.
@s0beit Actually Ford was terrible businessman. He nearly drove that company into the ground b/c he seemed to think they could produce one car - the Model T - forever. That's way GM overtook Ford in the mid to later 1920s and Ford had to be nearly strong armed into producing new and different models. Fact remains, however, he would have had nothing had it not been for the labor of others who created his wealth.
@jnick1980 That's your perception, CEOs are worth whatever investors intend to pay them, it doesn't really matter what you think, it isn't your money. Either way, do you think policies like these lower CEO paychecks? Ha! That's not the end result, sorry, just like with corporate taxes (not on income, mind you), it gets passed on in a lower amount of workers or a higher price in products, or they ship the job elsewhere, where you can't control them.
@s0beit Sorry, no CEO is worth $40 million, there's nothing particularly unique about what they do - many, many people have the talents and skills to do what they do but they didn't have the fortunate of being in the right place at the right time, working at the right place or being in a position to kiss the right ass on the way up the corporate ladder. It's this unmitigated greed of those at the very top which you defend so much that is destroying this country and the lives of ordinary people.
I see sObeit digs the wingnut rallying cry of "socialism" to support his BS ideas to bring down the middle class. Anything that maintains a quality of life 4 the 95% of American's like min wage/unions who struggle working 2 jobs, 60-70hrs a wk to provide a roof over the head, food on the table, gas in the tank is "socialism" & labeled redistribution of wealth ,whereas anything they want, like the massive farmiing subsidies (big govt handouts to farm bus) is a "safety net". LMAO!
@RioDreaming Uh, no, I don't support subsidies or any form of government help to any corporation anywhere, I don't know where most of you people came from, probably some sort of youtube group dedicated to sweeping statements and straw man arguments from what I can tell.
@jnick1980 Attempting to bring your way through force doesn't work and it's just cruel, causes all sorts of unintended consequences. I'd be fine with your way of coercing everyone to follow the rules arbitrarily set forth by our government masters if it was all roses and daisies but it isn't.
@jnick1980 That's your perception, not mine. It isn't like the north was always that way, the entire country was fairly racist once upon a time, the key difference being the north expanded more rapidly economically than the south, causing people of different races to interact more frequently and personally with one another. That isn't a coincidence on my end. This is coming from a northerner by the way.
@jnick1980 So you want equal distribution of profit? Just socialism, that's your answer? That's a completely separate argument, I don't even feel the need to address it. Those people make more because the company apparently thinks they should make more for the decisions they make, it's the companies money, they have every right to do that even if it does seem foolish to you. Workers are paid based on productivity of their position and what they're willing to work for collectively, no less.
@jnick1980 Voting rights I agree with, nobody should be deprived of the right to vote, Jim Crow laws were just that, laws, the state forced people to enforce those laws. A grand majority would not have supported them, especially businessmen, because they needed to invest more and profit less because of them. Build seperate bathrooms, fountains, schools, it was ridiculous from an economic prospective. Those aren't the same as labor related laws you're talking about, though.
@jaybb789 I've seen that video and while it's sad comparible to now, back then, people were fucking _poor_, there were no roads to speak of, no vehicles for a large part of that time, economic productivity was very very low. I have no doubt that people went a little hungrier after the bill passed, especially the desperately poor. You have to remember that today, the poorest of America are richer than the richest of the late 1800s.
@jnick1980 That's just false though, they would have came eventually if time allowed it, they just ended up hampering economic growth (in the case of western countries). Better working conditions formed even now, after those laws are passed, without the government. Sitting in a chair as a telemarketer seems harsh, cubicles seem horrible, but compared to back breaking farm work they're by a wide margin much, much better. Living standards have also increased over time, globally, for everyone.
@jaybb789 Alright well now I'm replying to you respectfully and you just go back to name calling. Have fun with that, in any case, back to what i was saying, the children _must_ work in those countries or people will starve, period, in the case of Bangladesh i mentioned earlier, they outlawed child labor in an unproductive economy and people starved and turned to prostitution because they needed that income. Read the UN report on the subject if you don't believe me, they conclude the same as me.
@jnick1980 Child labor is a function of poverty and necessity, you can't simply outlaw it. Let's say for example we're impoverished and need 10$ a day to survive, we each make 3$ a day and we have a child, obviously, we need 4$ and if we don't get it somebody is going to go hungry that day. That's why child labor exists, because economically speaking their society isn't productive enough to pay people enough to provide for multiple individuals.
@jnick1980 That's how our nation grew, that's how Hong Kong grew, that's how nations continue to grow. There will always be somebody below somebody else, the question is how low is the lowest man on the totem poll? In a hundred years I want the poorest nations to be like the Netherlands today, that's my vision. Back to child labor, I'll explain as detailed as i can why child labor is not a force stopped by the government in my next reply.
@jnick1980 It's exploiting poverty to you, it's economic growth to me. Jobs go here instead of retaining all jobs here strictly because of how cheap they are, if they were paid wages near ours there would be no incentive for them to be hired at all, if they aren't hired at all they live in impoverished nations forever. I want them working more so they can build more infrastructure so they can be richer in the long term. I don't like seeing people poor, but solving it is my concern, not hampering
@jaybb789 Uh, actually, I only dish them out when they're given to me. I'm not going to take part in your flame war, start presenting some arguments and I'll respond otherwise I'm ready and willing to paint you with the same brush you paint me with.
@jnick1980 s0beit probably uses Lewis HInes' famous photos of American child laborers as his masturbation material. Nothing but evil comes from his mouth.
@MaryJo1950 You people are sacks of emotion gushing non-logical economically brain-dead puke. I'd certainly rather be seen as correct on a subject and evil to you, than wrong and altruistic to you. Sorry I can't accommodate.
@s0beit You are the one spouting puke that is devoid of any historical knowledge. There''s nothing correct in anything you've said here. You don't care about people or the conditions of their lives, all you do is excuse and defend those who exploit, rob and would enslave people if allowed to do so. Next you will probably be defending forced labor - after all that would be a great way for a company to maximize it's profits.
@MaryJo1950 I don't support forced labor. Please cite which is incorrect and I'll reply to you, but please do note that while you said my replies were "devoid of historical knowledge" you just went totally ad hominem and didn't actually make an argument. I'd like that to stop please.
@MaryJo1950"probably uses Lewis HInes' famous photos of American child laborers as his masturbation material. Nothing but evil comes from his mouth.'MaryJo1950.
This nut's an ignoramus & worse he's devoid of heart or soul. He touts the party line to support 'the rich getting richer & the poor getting poorer'. He wants slave labor- they miss their plantations. This group of selfish, greedy A-holes are myopic imbeciles. Their very survival depends on the working class being strong & healthy.
@jnick1980 People in those impoverished nations love it when a corporation comes to their area actually, they pay better wages than other companies around them and the conditions are comparably better to them, mind you, not to us. I think you're the utopian, you have no idea how economic growth occurs. Go watch videos about what people in those countries think about the subject, it's rarely talked about but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it. They're excited because jobs mean food.
In addition to your claim of lower employment, the higher minimum wage artificially raises the cost of living (higher inflation). When unskilled labor have more money via higher min. wages, businesses can afford to raise the prices of goods and services. Demand for goods and services rises if more people have money in their pockets.
"allowing society to accumulate capital" thats rich...Typical reaganomics double speak. What that really means is allowing the very rich to merge and get even richer while continuously lowering the standard of living of everyone around them until the gap between the rich and the poor is as we see today. 1000 people with 30 houses, jets, cars, and buildings all to themselves, and billions who cant get access to clean water or basic health. Trickle down economics doesnt work.
@mrrealtime So the fact that the wealthy elite bribe politicians to give their competition a competitive disadvantage or make competition all out illegal so that they can turn their business into a monopoly and charge artificially high prices and offer artificially low quality so that they can make higher profit margins in no way helps in increasing the wealth disparity? It's all the unhampered free market. Yes?
Where's the evidence that minimum wage is above the equilibrium of market price? That aside your assuming that the cost to a business is equal to their output or revenue.
If you take two seconds to look up "Economies of scale" you'll notice why the minimum wage increases unemployment argument fails.
@AndroidPolitician Evidence? Ever seen people who are homeless yet still pickup cans? Or try to squeegee your windows for any sort of tip? Whatever they are earning for each hour of work is well below the minimum wage and yet they still work doing it. Now a lot of recycling would be done if someone could actually organize people to grab those cans for a minimal wage.
Full serve at pumps, lack of cashiers, ushers, there's plenty of evidence of the damage of minimum wage.
@sirellyn Did you know that poverty is highest in places where the minimum wage is lowest?
People only work for low wages because they don't have any other choice. However, The problem for capitalism is that the less money people make, the less they have to spend and so deflationary depression occurs. Unfortunately for capital, demand tends to collapse when production is highest. This is the business cycle of boom and bust. Thats the high cost of low-wages and why high wages are a good thing.
@durruti612 Where do you think the money comes from? It's nice to say poverty is low in a country that has welfare and a high minimum wage, until you realize they borrow every year to keep it up. Like saying you live the high life but only on a credit card. Worse still when you see those are countries on the economic decline, where everyone is getting poorer.
Last decade China elevated 300 million from African levels of dirt poor to middle class (more than US pop). Still no minimum wage.
@sirellyn China elevated 300 million? Is that why we see massive strike waves and protests all over China demanding higher wages recently? China has more poverty today than it did a decade ago. the difference is that there are more millionaires so the 'average wage' is higher. An example; what's the average wage of 10 self-sufficient farmers? around 0 right? Now, make 1 a millionaire and the other 9 factory workers earning poverty wages in a big city. what is the average wage now?
@durruti612 lol would you listen to yourself? First it's bad that 300 million people went from abject poverty to owning cars and houses, in fact somehow it makes the people who still aren't rich poorer. Not that they've actually earning less. Now it's based on the average wage for you.
So you are screwed if you work hard and do well because now you owe everyone else and should pay them. I guess this explains why a lot of people are poor and getting poorer.
@sirellyn No, what i said was; 300 mil did not go from poverty to owinging cars and houses. I said there is more poverty and inequality. Where do you get that 300 mil figure from?
forbes Within A Generation, China Middle Class Four Times Larger Than America's
None of these people are taking government money for welfare/minimum wage. They are creating wealth. Not siphoning from the US, CREATING. As in new wealth that never existed before. Even if they could siphon you can't get 4x the pop of the US wealthier than the US by siphoning money.
Greatest number of people to rise to middle class in shortest time in all of history
@sirellyn again, china has minimum wage laws. welfare exists in china too. the state intervenes in the economy in ways unheard of here. its a type of capitalism alright, state capitalism. And no, China's middle class , by any reasonable defenition of the term "middle class", is not 4x bigger than the US. even if it were true, so what? if a slave is treated better today than he was yesterday, does that justify slavery? hell no!
forbes Within A Generation, China Middle Class Four Times Larger Than America's
None of these people are taking government money for welfare/minimum wage. They are creating wealth. Not siphoning from the US, CREATING. As in new wealth that never existed before. Even if they could siphon you can't get 4x the pop of the US wealthier than the US by siphoning money.
Greatest number of people to rise to middle class in shortest time in all of history
No that's more like you seeing some poor people on the street and coming up with a conclusion. The actual evidence shows minimum wage helps decrease unemployment.
I would love to see the formula they used to calculate that. A source would be excellent.
As for the people on the street I'm stating a fact. Or do they not do those things for money? And are those sums of money often less than minimum employment?
The fundemental thing you are missing mister jacob, is that these monolopies exist already , they are already in place, getting rid of the government and minimum wage will not allow you or your friends to catch up or take over the monolopies, because dear sir... they ALREADY have the advantage.
Free Market just means smaller companies trying to undercut the monolopies.... they'll beat your pay by offering minimum wage anyway... Who's going to work for YOU?
"Oh gee, this new independant company with a lot of capital is offering me 5 dollars an hour in poor working conditions, or this existing monolopy which is in no threat of going under , is offering me 10 dollars an hour, who shall I work for?"
The corperate giants are here, and they will laugh in your face and crush you if you get your dream of a free market and if you even begin to get a little bit successful, they'll buy you up.... hey , free market right?
@stewie1974 Monopolies can be broken with competition. Apple (APPL) has overcame the once dominant Microsoft's (MSFT) in the personal computer market. If the rise of minimum wage was absent, I can guarantee that the Apple Stores would be even bigger today.
@JacobSpinney The unhampered free market is a fairy tale for people who have no interest in history and the well being of humanity. What matters in the real world is power, not hyper-intellectualized masturbation over how wonderful the world would be if humans were "rational maximizers of self-interest" working in an environment of "absolute freedom" leading to "perfect equality" in the "free market." Yes, and balls would keep on rolling forever on an imaginary frictionless plane.
@mrrealtime Reaganomics was not real free market capitalism.
Take government spending for example:
"In 1980, the last year of free-spending Jimmy Carter the federal government spent $591 billion. In 1986, the last recorded year of the Reagan administration, the federal government spent $990 billion, an increase of 68%. Whatever this is, it is emphatically not reducing government expenditures."
@janc71 And from the HBO documentary film 'Reagan' (a little over an hour into the film):
"Reaganomics was sold as less government, in other words, less spending and less taxes. But there's a fundamental deception about that, because there was only less spending in certain area's." (defence spending increased)
@janc71 On the contrary, lower taxes causes higher tax revenues. Why? Lower taxes means lower cost to operate businesses; thus, more jobs to offer. The more jobs created, the higher tax revenue via more people paying income taxes.
The opposite is true. When the taxes are higher, cost of businesses rises; thus, higher unemployment. When there is less people employed, the lower the tax revenue. Do you really think that the behavior of the job creators would remain the same when taxes are raised.
@mrrealtime I don't see anything wrong with wealthy people getting wealthier. "Trickle down" economic is not something automatic. It takes effort for anyone to become wealthier. N. Korea, Cuba and Mexico are good example of equality of wealth. Everyone is poor thanks to their govt socialist economics. What is ironic is that the dictators live a wealthy lifestyle while everyone is equally poor. The USA quality of life is way better than those countries I've mention. Even our poor lives better.
@mrrealtime Aren't these people funny? The minimum wage in Australia is $15 AUD (thats a but over $16 USD) and the Australian job market is much better, they actually have a demand for skilled workers in a variety of fields - everything from the minning industry to education to medical. Their economy is currently much better than that of the US. These people are deluded utopians and would willingly follow their own executioner, not realizing what was going on until it was too late.
@xexixk You're seriously attributing Australia's entire economy to a high minimum wage? Relative to us, that's even richer. First of all, it could be that Australia is doing quite well. That's good, but the minimum wage has no effect on it. The point is, you can't raise wages ABOVE the market price by too much or you'll eliminate a lot of jobs. So, why isn't the minimum wage 20 AUD? 30? 100? What would that do to the job market? (cont)
@s0beit 2/2 other choice. When there were no minimum wage laws in this country it didn't work out as people such as yourself claim it would and it doesn't work out today in many other parts of the world where there is either no minimum wage or a very low minimum wage - all they have to show for it is sweatshops and jobs that pay pennies an hour.
@xexixk and actually when there were no minimum wage laws things were never better for industrial growth and people were living comparatively better than before, the reason is because wages aren't just some arbitrary thing employers set, it's called the labor MARKET for a reason. If your logic is correct, doctors, computer technicians, engineers should be getting paid minimum wage because there's nothing stopping employers from doing that. A book, open one.
@s0beit 1/2 When did I say it was all about the high minimum wage in Australia? It just proves your theory about the minimum was destroying jobs is false. Get rid of the minimum wage in the US and what do you plan to do when the vast majority of the jobs in the country go to $2 or $3 an hour? Of course you say it will never happen, but it would and don't try that argument about employers competing for workers by offering high wages. The majority would just offer low wages and people would have
@xexixk Jobs wouldn't go to $2 or $3 an hour, assertions like that make it crystal clear you have no idea how wages or set or how an economy works, nice one. It does destroy jobs, it's been concluded by almost every economist mainstream or not, in almost every study done because economically, it makes sense. People who have labor worth less than the minimum wage, i.e. people who would impose a negative cost on the company hiring them, won't be hired, how is this hard to understand?
@s0beit You should go open a book as well. Wages didn't rise and working conditions didn't improve until after the beginning of the labor movement when people had enough and people demanded it. Child labor didn't vanish until it was prohibited by law. If there are no other jobs for the majority of people other than low paying jobs for $2 or $3 an hour they will have no other choice but to take them or starve. Your theories certainly are not playing out in other parts of the world.
@xexixk Look, you're just getting pathetic at this point. Child labor was not stopped by law. If you want to make another reply on this go ahead, but I have things like, uh, evidence that say you're completely wrong. Bangladesh tried to outlaw child labor, they didn't have the market to do it - it wasn't productive enough. People starved and children became prostitutes because they NEEDED that money to SURVIVE. That's your theory in the real world.
@s0beit Sorry you have no evidence, just the unproven theory of others and yourself. History contridicts you. People got better wages and working conditions because they fought for them, not because of the "genorosity" of industrialists. Child labor went away in the US when it was abolished by law. Attempting to justify child labor as a solution to poverty does nothing but sustain both child labor and poverty. Education and decent opportunities fight poverty, not child labor. Bangladesh?
@s0beit The most current information I have found (from 2010) states that the minimum monthly wage for a garment worker in Bangladesh is about $25. Perhaps if adult workers were decently paid then their children wouldn't have to work. The western businesses doing business with them could do that, but no that would involve the posibility of some executive some where risking taking a small hit in his salary.
We're going in a bad direction. The GOP is blackmailing the country again in it's determination to destroy medicare, refusing to raise the debt ceiling. If the GOP was "in" they would have to raise the debt ceiling and the Dems would vote for it doing the right thing for America and American's. I guess evil is running rampant in the U.S. at this point.
@xexixk "Perhaps if adult workers were decently paid" if they were paid more than any other impoverished country they wouldn't be hired in the first place, then they'd have no economic growth. You are fucking economically illiterate, i swear it. "Attempting to justify child labor as a solution to poverty does nothing but sustain both child labor and poverty", stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard.
@s0beit Actually all of this BS you spout is the stupiest thing ever, since you like to use childish insults towards those who disagree with you then I will return the favor. Go read some history you fucking idiot. Child labor in the US did not go away until it was abolished by law - starting at the state level and finally at the federal level in 1938. Wages did not raise and working conditions did not improve until people had had enough and rose up and demanded better pay and conditions.
@s0beit You are the one who is the moron here. You actually believe that these kind hearted industrialists and big businesses would never ever take advantage of anyone, exploit any segment of society or have people working in dangerously unsafe conditions if they could get away with it. You are an ignorant fool who knows nothing of history or human nature. All you do is spout these ridiculous theories that history has proven wrong time and time again.
@s0beit Best thing you could do is put down your copy of Atlas Shrugged and go get out in the real would and learn for yourself how the world really operates. You mentioned Bangladesh before - if people like you had your way that's exactly the kind of society we would end up living in. You are a fool. If you get your way and are unable to find any work other than that works you 7 days a week for 15 or more hours a day for about $2 an hour don't cry about it.
@xexixk You still haven't answered my question of why people - anyone - get paid above minimum wage.
According to your concept of how the economy works, this shouldn't ever happen. I don't think you know how it happens and I don't think you have an answer. Thanks for your time.
@s0beit 2/2 If you serious want such people to be paid $1 or $2 dollars an hour then you had better be prepared for massive amounts of money to be pumped into all of those social and welfare programs that you people hate so much, because they will only become more needed as people become more desperate to feed themselves and their families. All your ideas would succeed in doing is putting on us on an ever more accelerated path to becoming a banana republic.
@s0beit 1/2 No one here has said that people with more training or specialized skills do not earn more or should not earn more. Although there are those with training and education - such as teachers - who often earn less than some who have less education. You still can't explain why in your system those at the bottom already scraping by on wages they cannot live on "deserve" to be paid even less.
@xexixk People wouldn't be paid 1 or 2 dollars an hour unless they agreed to it, that's my point. That's the entire reason why I keep asking you why ANYONE has a wage above minimum, they do because wages are not just set by employers, they're also set by the workforce. Nothing obligates people to take jobs which are extremely low in wage, the more scarce your labor is, the more the price goes up, low wages nobody would take means they raise the price until somebody does take it.
@s0beit If people can only find jobs paying $2 an hour - which will be the result b/c most people are not doctors, etc. who can successfully demand higher paying jobs - then they have no real choice. If that is what you want, then you had better be prepared for a massive new demand for food stamps, welfare and other public assistance programs. Point out to a real world example where this has played out in a western country in modern times, not just theoretically on paper.
@s0beit If a person in need of work is offered a job in a retail store for X dollars an hour (regardless of how much or how little it is) they are not likely to turn the offer down (unless they have some othe rmeans of support) because they need the job, so they have no real choice. It's not as if they could realistically expect the employer to offer them more if they said "Well I'm interested but X dollars an hr. isn't enough, I want XX an hour."
@xexixk How about this proposal then, instead of ending the minimum wage you give workers the option to opt out of it, mind you, you don't give businesses the option to set wages lower, but if
Wow Jacob a whole 5,519 views that must pay you less than minimum wage
dbistrumalot 2 weeks ago
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I rather have the Minimum Wage at $5 hr and gas prices at $1.20 like they used to be in the 90's. The working man is screwed now these days, wait till this summer when gas prices hit $6. Think about it
iranwarcom 3 weeks ago
I live in California, and I can't tell you how many times I've seen perfectly good crops which had already been grown get destroyed because the landowners can't afford to pay the workers to pick them.
TuxedoClam 1 month ago
Can $5 support a person? can $1 support a person? people already work multiple jobs trying to support themselves, what would lowering minimum wage do for them.
mxdirector 1 month ago
@mxdirector It is immoral to use a weapon to get what you want. Period. End of sentence.
I can easily demonstrate the damage caused by using force to ban people from working. The math is quite trivial, but I doubt you will accept actual evidence as long as you believe in violence.
jeffiek 1 month ago
@jeffiek
What the hell are you talking about. Nothing you said there makes any sense. banning people from working? guns? believing in violence. what the hell? Did you accidentally respond to the wrong person?
mxdirector 1 month ago
@mxdirector I replied to the correct post.
YOU fail to see what the minimum wage does. It BANS people from working for anything less.
YOU fail to see that this is accomplished with force ( even to the point of imagining that I wrote guns ).
YOU believe this is good. Therefore, you believe in violence. Possibly out of ignorance, not knowing what it is you do, but you believe in it.
jeffiek 1 month ago
@jeffiek
Wow. You believe in avoiding the explotation of people so hence you believe in violence. I can't even understand that leap. so Wow.
mxdirector 1 month ago
@mxdirector What do you think the law is enforced with? Feathers and pixie dust?
You're deep in denial.
The MW law is not "avoiding the exploitation of people" the MW law IS exploitation of people.
It exploits the both employer's and employees inability to fight back, and it exploits your ignorance and delusions.
jeffiek 1 month ago
@1963danno ...Nope...you are forgetting the law of supply and demand...and the right to liberty that the employee has to go elsewhere and find more favourable conditions in the market. And employers and employees agree on what's a just wage everyday. In a free market the free individual is king and can pick and choose amongst many alternatives while the providers have to scramble to satisfy the individuals wants if they are to gain value themselves. The state however uses force to deny choice.
Riellysdad 1 month ago
@1963danno that unemployment will steadily rise given the fact that while it may have seemed negligible before if for some reason the SoL drops (during a recession or depression) the cost of doing business with rise, costs of goods will rise etc will rise. Look at unemployment right now. The government just erased people off what they deem as 'unemployed' to get the number down to an 'acceptable' level. The fact of the matter is regulations cripple business and the economy.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@1963danno If you raise the minimum wage above the SoL you will find people going out of a job because the minimum wage is no above the standard of living and as such businesses will retain only the most efficient workers or go out of business because they can't afford to pay above the standard of living in a given area. Sure, companies maybe able to afford paying their workers for some time (if they saved) however, the fact remains that if you raise the minimum wage above the SoL you will find
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@1963danno What I think is fair? How about employees and employers deciding how much they want to make and how much they want to pay. There is plenty of proof that the minimum wage hurts the economy.. if it didn't then the minimum wage can be 20 dollars right now and there would not be mass unemployment. The fact of the matter is the minimum wage cuts out the kids who could work (high school drop outs etc) yet the number is negligible -if- you raise the minimum wage with the SoL.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@1963danno The fact of the matter is I did, you expected me to know exactly what you were talking about when your statement implies the last 10 years. It did not say, there was a time where the minimum wage was not raised for at least 10 years. You didn't specify what you were saying and you expected me to assume you meant that when the wording you used did not imply that in the slightest.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@1963danno "It hasn't been raised for ten years." The fact of the matter is you said that it hasn't been raised in ten years.. when I told you it was raised in 2007 you went back and said well I meant from 1997 to 2007. The fact of the matter is you DID NOT specify what years you were talking about. you were talking about the last 10 years with your statement. See what happens when you aren't specific. Expecting me to know what years you are talking about is asinine.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
Liberterians should practice what they preach. If they like unbridled capitalism so much, where there are no checks, regulations and balances, move to China and earn your living there. But I doubt privileged and sheltered whites would adapt to a $0.5/hour lifestyle.
Sniper2008009 1 month ago
I don't know what number would be 'just right'. I don't think in your terms that there should be a minimum wage or a maximum earnings. I'm sure that -any- minimum wage is a detriment to the economy.
Also, like you're saying what number is 'just right' when I haven't advocated a number at all is simply asinine.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@1963danno Why are you suggesting I'm in favor of any taxation?
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@1963danno Again, no shit it has.. who has it had an effect on the most. The people at the minimum wage levels or the people in the corporate world? Are you seriously that blind?
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@1963danno By implying that it isn't a contractual relationship by saying it's slave wages. Something that people like you don't understand about the market or how wages works calls contractual relationships 'slavery'.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@1963danno You said the last 10 years. You did not specify what years you were talking about nor did we specify what years we were talking about in the first place. Either you are a liar or you are intellectually dishonest. So, I'll call you intellectually dishonest for trying to cover your ass when someone called you out on it.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@1963danno btw, acting like a job isn't a contractual relationship is also another mistake. You're assuming that the cost of goods would remain the same while the wages go down. To put it simply the business would only hurt itself by hurting the buying power of their employees. If their employees can't afford the product then many others won't be able to either. As such you have businesses try to lower the cost of their goods/services so more people can buy it. Regulations don't help though.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@1963danno Actually minimum wage was raised back in 2007 in the US.. are you going to continue to make lies? The fact of the matter is you don't even see how stupid your own argument is until it is taken to an absurdity. The argument still holds true though.. what is the 'perfect' minimum wage? It's an unanswerable question so why are you having the government forcing it? Why not no minimum wage at all? While we're at it how about no regulations either. You think workers are stupid.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@1963danno So, the minimum wage has no effect on employment then? Why keep it at 7.25 hmm? Why not 30 dollars an hour? How about 100? Do you see how stupid your argument is yet?
D34thSetX 1 month ago
I agree, however, you forgot to mention that the people WILLING to work for minimum wage now have no need of minimum wage because they are "drawing a check from government assistance", reproducing at a rapid rate and getting healthcare for little to nothing, which they would never get with a minimum wage job. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. First time in American history, there are more people drawing a check than working to earn one!
pmillerrnbsn11 1 month ago
@1963danno What has caused the most unemployment? Ding ding ding.. The minimum wage by cutting out an entire section of workers that could have been hired below the wage rate are now immediately either without a job or cannot get one.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@D34thSetX Don't bother explaining it to someone who can't think more than one step ahead or behind.
jaybreak 1 month ago in playlist More videos from JacobSpinney
I'd rather make money than not make money.. however I would not use the threat of violence or death to make all companies pay everyone 5 dollars either.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@D34thSetX
Yes you should have money! You should make $.5 an hour and toil all your days like a slave while those poor, poor corporations who are out for our public welfare and interest get to give you jobs at their expense. How sad for the corporations that they have to bear the burden of feeding the people!
Sniper2008009 1 month ago
@Sniper2008009 You're sadly mistaken if you think you aren't a slave by the amount of money you make. You're a slave to the government the government doesn't care about you at all. The only incentive they have to make sure you are happy are when you vote idiots into office. It's not surprising that you don't see that businesses do care about the people they serve while believing (wrongly) that the government serves the 'general' welfare.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
Yes, we shouldn't have minimum wage. Think of all those poor corporations and their shareholders having a lesser bottom line!
Sniper2008009 1 month ago
@Sniper2008009 Corporations can afford it.. yet you never thought of the Mom and Pop shops that have to deal with your stupidity when it comes to the minimum wage laws right?
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@D34thSetX
Sure DeathSetX, people should just earn a pittance while owners literally exploit their workers until they bleed to death. I've got to love armchair analysts who have no real clue about reality and how the world works, while only basing their paradigm on flawed theories. While we're at it, we should also do away with labor laws that limits the maximum hours of work in a day and rest days. But you don't want that in your sheltered little world do you?
Sniper2008009 1 month ago
@Sniper2008009 Sniper, you have given nothing contrary to the fact that the system you advocate is not only terribly flawed it leads to the things that you are complaining about. Corporations own the government, yet government made corporations and passes laws that help corporations over small business. Never mind the fact that corporations can afford all of the crippling regulations so they of course come out on top. You are blind to the fact that it wasn't laws that led to a better life cont.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@D34thSetX
Wow, I'm centrist. I don't believe in either extremes and I don't believe a wholly capitalistic/socialistic society. Thank you for strawmanning me and thank you for wasting my time. It is obvious you don't know what you're talking about and don't even have a clue about history and the industrial revolution; how workers suffered, how they worked 12 hour shifts without dayoffs and how slaves had it better than wage earners (in fact it was used by pro-slavery for their arguments).
Sniper2008009 1 month ago
Cont'd:
But it just shows though that you are indeed an armchair analyst. You need to realize there is no such thing as a "free market" situation. Even educated economists agree with this fact, this is simply used as an assumption in their theories to show their theorems and models. Hence the term "economics is a dismal science". Get a clue, and stop analyzing from your armchair.
Sniper2008009 1 month ago
@Sniper2008009 Coming from the person who has done absolutely zero research about the industrial revolution and history it is plain to see that you have not reached past grade school level education in those subjects. The fact that you compare apples to oranges rather than oranges to oranges and apples to apples. In point of fact you say all of these 'terrible things happened' and yet you completely miss out on the fact that 40 years prior people worked all day doing their job. Mirror again fool
D34thSetX 3 weeks ago
@Sniper2008009 Centrist? You kidding me? You have argued here that the minimum wage is a great thing that that it should be raised. You say you are a 'centrist' but your philosophy has pushed towards more and more socialism. It's obvious that you don't know how to do comparative analysis. The fact of the matter is you can't take what we have now and compare it to 100 years ago and say oh man the factories were terrible. That's obvious to anyone. However, was 100 years ago better than 150? yes.
D34thSetX 3 weeks ago
@D34thSetX
Yes child, I'm centrist and I don't swing to either extremes because it's stupid. Move along little child, your armchair analysis and blatant ignorance of the industrial revolution and the abuses done by industrialists against laborers is laughable.
Sniper2008009 3 weeks ago
@Sniper2008009 People in the market made life better for everyone. You talk about reality and 'how the world works' yet you advocate the things that brought us here. You say that deregulation caused our problems when there wasn't any deregulation in the first place (especially since it's not deregulation if the government controls it already). Talk about arm chair analysis it's people like you that help with the destruction of our way of life.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@Sniper2008009 Btw, Yes we should do away with labor laws that limit the maximum hours people can work in a day. If they want to work 12 hours and get paid for 12 hours then good for them, who are you to stop them or their company from handing out more hours for workers? Geez, so much for being a pro-worker.. not only do you want them to work less and get paid more.. you don't even want to let them choose what hours they want to work or not.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@D34thSetX
"If they want to work 12 hours and get paid for 12 hours then good for them"
That's why there is this thing called "overtime pay" nitwit. Labor laws such as maximum hours worked make sure laborers are not exploited. You have no clue about the industrial revolution do you? And yes, you are indeed an armchair analyst since you have no clue about reality and how the real world works, while only voicing out opinions on your sheltered suburban home in your comfy little armchair.
Sniper2008009 1 month ago
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Sniper2008009 1 month ago
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Cont'd:
By the way, I also see you walk the walk, but I don't see you talk the talk. If you really like unbridled capitalism so much, please move to China where labor laws are practically non-existent and workers have no rights. Post videos on youtube so we can see armchair analysts like you taste how the real world works outside of their comfy and sheltered 1st world suburban homes.
Sniper2008009 1 month ago
@Sniper2008009 China isn't a pure capitalist society. Yet again.. shown for your complete IGNORANCE about the economy and the government in china.
Yeah, and I'm an armchair analyst.. take a look in the mirror buddy.. because you're obviously denying reality rather well.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@Sniper2008009 never mind the fact that the chinese government is in the lives of virtually everyone in china.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@Sniper2008009 Overtime pay gives an incentive to employers to NOT schedule anyone past whatever mark would not be considered overtime. Obviously you're oblivious to the obvious. "maximum hours worked make sure laborers are not exploited" No, it's to force employers to higher more people than they would necessarily need because not only are the workers limited to how many hours they can work by virtue that there is no incentive for employers to actually schedule any overtime.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@Sniper2008009 Obviously you have no clue about the industrial revolution since you're making typical remarks from someone that has absolutely no education when it comes to economics. Your ad hom attacks are completely meaningless to the arguments that you are presenting. The fact of the matter is, you're wrong.. you know you're wrong so, because I've backed you into a corner you have to attack. You talk about 'reality' and 'the real world' yet everything you suggest has already proven to be
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@Sniper2008009 terrible in reality. While your philosophy may seem great on paper it is ultimately flawed by the fact that men aren't angels and we don't have crystal balls to see into the future. Your fantasy land that it's because of the government we have the things we have now discounts the hundreds of thousands of people that not only thought of these things before government got involved, but also paved the way for what we have now in spite of what government has done. Yet that is gone now
D34thSetX 1 month ago
I agree with Jacob. It's sad, I know, but I know people specifically that refuse to work for minimum wage. These people have neither a degree, nor a special skill. A lot of people don't have jobs,because they think they are better than minimum wage, I've seen it personally.
GodDidJesusInTheButt 2 months ago
It has been found that by having a minimal wage this can help an economy to grow. Poor people tend to spend most of their money and this gives companies a good source of revenue when they buy their products.
nivekvb 3 months ago
@nivekvb Possibly true, but those goods tend to go to consumer goods, which most of it flows out of the country. So it doesn't really help the U.S.
theblackout27 3 months ago
How is wealth created? Please submit your answers. This is the most important economic question and it has a very simple answer. If you cannot answer the question, you do not understand enough about economics to make a judgement on any economic viewpoint.
Thatmakessense356 3 months ago
And yet minimum wage here in Ontario is at $10.25/hr, one of the highest rates in North America, with an unemployment rate at around 7%. In America, however, it is 9%.
Oops.
PSNLanceManley 3 months ago
@PSNLanceManley Minimum Wage only has an adverse effect on the economy when the Minimum Wage is set above the average wage paid. For instance a few years ago Minimum Wage was a little over 5 dollars. It did not negatively affect the country because the average a business would pay was around or a little above that wage set. However when you set a wage above the average then it damages an economy. Imagine if, in Ontario, they decided to bump Minimum Wage to 20.50/hr to see my point.
YaHuWaHservant 2 months ago
@YaHuWaHservant I agree, if minimum wage were set too high it would be damaging to the economy. Much like any extreme is damaging. However my point was to debunk the claim made in this video that any form of minimum wage is damaging, which is certainly not the case.
PSNLanceManley 2 months ago
@PSNLanceManley Any form of minimum wage is damaging as it always becomes a scapegoat for Government intervention in the market. Minimum Wage is only ever good when it is set at a rate where it does no harm, defeating the point of having it, however in tough economic times minimum wage always hinders the markets ability to straighten itself out.
YaHuWaHservant 2 months ago
@YaHuWaHservant if you don't like minimum wage go work in China they would love to have you there. They can pay $.5 an hour and work 12 hour days
MetalEdge56 2 months ago
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@MetalEdge56 If can afford a house, food, clothes, etc then I would take the job. You get so hung up on the amount without taking into consideration buying power of your money. You also fail to take into account how unemployment is increased by the Minimum wage. I, don't know about you, am an adult. I am quite capable of making my own deals on how much I will work for without a babysitting government.
YaHuWaHservant 2 months ago
@MetalEdge56 Compare apples to oranges. do you know how much money they get in their own currency for that 50 cents? Btw, they don't make 50 cents an hour it's rumored that they are paid on average 5 dollars a day.. which if we rework your math they are making less than 50 cents a day however, the 5 dollars they make when converted to Yuan (which is about 6.4 to 1 USD.. which is 32 Yuan a day which in 30 days hits the minimum wage of chinese laws and is on par with the Chinese Standard of living
D34thSetX 1 month ago
On a theoretical level, you are correct. In the real world, however, you are completely wrong.
Economists agree that the negative effect of a minimum wage on jobs is minimal at best. The problem with your scenario is this, most employers are paying more than minimum wage for entry level positions so the minimum wage argument is non existent.
What the minimum wage does hurt, is the ability to apprentice.
Landrar 3 months ago
@Landrar Economists agreed that there was no housing bubble.. they are hardly the types of people to say that the effect is 'minimal' at best when they completely ignore potential.
D34thSetX 1 month ago
@D34thSetX The hell are you talking about? Economists everywhere were screaming warnings about the housing bubble in 2005. It was govt officials that denied the existance of it.
Landrar 1 month ago
@Landrar Economists everywhere? No, only a few schools namely Chicago and Austrian schools of economics warned about the housing bubble in 2002-3. The fact that there were other economists 'screaming' warnings about housing bubble in 2005 were people like Krugman who said the government should create a housing bubble.
D34thSetX 3 weeks ago
If a man must hold two or three jobs in order to survive off of minimal wages, which is what lowering the minimum wage would do, then there is still a high level of unemployment, and a lower level of living-wage employment.
cheezitstandard 3 months ago
The only way reason why companies wouldn't want the minimum wage is because they want to pay their employees less than minimum wage. YOU try living off of minimum wage, and then tell me that people don't need that much. It is meant to protect the worker. It is meant to ensure that a job provides at least a minimal standard of living. I understand that lowering the minimum wage allows more jobs to be created, but it also forces minimum wage employees to have multiple jobs, increasing unemployment
cheezitstandard 3 months ago
You ignore the fact that individual employees have little power on their own. An employer can choose any wage and the employee will have to work at it because one person can do nothing about it. It is only if they come together in a union or if the government decides a minimum wage that they can get a fair wage
rapn21 3 months ago
Solution to Unemployment
Worker Cooperatives. The more there are the more there will be, cooperatives support the economic health of their communities.
FreeTheWorker 4 months ago
And on Minimum Wage
I'd like to make a suggestion. As long as the value of currency is not uniform there will be no way to compete with foreign labor for which one dollar is worth five in a global economy, the big players in our economy will always outsource jobs as long as the cost of training labor and shipping goods can be justified.
The only way US workers will ever compete with the Chinese is if we devalue our currency and worsen our working conditions. Do you want that?
FreeTheWorker 4 months ago
@FreeTheWorker Only for the short term China is facing a problem with their tactics. The yuan is artificially kept at low value so as to promote trade and the outsorce of foreign investments to China. However because of this theyre economic status boomed at a rate that the value of the yuan could not sustain. the yuan will suffer inflation like it is now. China is in the midst of an inflation and the bubble will burst soon. This is why there is growing dissent and the start of jasmine rebellion
iggsta3o5 4 months ago
@iggsta3o5 That's true, China's currency can't be kept artificially low for much longer especially with all the scrutiny on them. But there will always be places where a dollar can buy a lot more than a soda, the only way to compete with labor in those countries is to devalue our currency and work in the same often inhumane conditions.
Which is one of the many reasons more workers need to form cooperatives and go to work for themselves, you make more and have better job security that way.
FreeTheWorker 4 months ago
@FreeTheWorker Not really if we get rid of our capital gains tax and leave taxation to the state as well as income tax we would be able to attract high skilled investors to the states this would bring an influx of jobs free trade would also be beneficial Nafta at least had part of it right. even if there is a country that devalues its own currency we can still take enough of the market share this way to allow job stimulus for years to come
iggsta3o5 4 months ago
@iggsta3o5 I'm sure if we got rid of all our taxes tomorrow suddenly all those nice business men would be willing to pay more for American workers even though their dollar would be worth more in other markets simply due to the currency value.
FreeTheWorker 4 months ago
@iggsta3o5 By the way when have tax cuts ever created jobs? I'm completely against taxes as they currently exist as far as I'm concerned any taxes that aren't voluntary equal theft, but this economic idiom that all would be well if we only cut taxes, it's not working out. The last 12 years have been practically nothing but tax cuts, the savings haven't trickled down.
FreeTheWorker 4 months ago
@FreeTheWorker tax cuts do not create jobs niether does spending they only encourage investment bush tax cuts actually fostered revenues but his disasterous spending in foreign wars over shadowed those revenues with debt raegans tax cuts promoted investment and rasied revenues even kennedy eisenhower and truman severely cut taxes. if kennedy would have run for president today he would be shunned since he would sound like a republican. Tax cuts are a bandaid what is needed is tax reform withless
iggsta3o5 4 months ago
@FreeTheWorker taxes and the states should be the taxer not the fed the only federal tax im willing to spend is defense tax. We dont get rid of all the taxes just the ones that are unconstitutional. Like direct taxes on wages. Lower taxes to be competative in the global market. By the way even with a tax rate of 39 percent on corporations the middle class is still the most taxed of all with job loss from taxation falling heavily on small business.
iggsta3o5 4 months ago
@iggsta3o5 There's nothing unconstitutional about those taxes, in fact Article 1 Section 8 Explicitly allows the government to levy such taxes, and even if you eliminated all taxes tomorrow most of America's economic problems aren't caused by taxes. Now I happen to hold the position that any tax that isn't voluntary is theft, and that includes the defense tax, but big businesses aren't going to stop outsourcing jobs just because we cut taxes when the value of currency varies between countries.
FreeTheWorker 4 months ago
Here's a solution to Minimum Wage Jacob Spinney.
Abolish wages and pay labor according to labor value and company value like cooperatives do.
FreeTheWorker 4 months ago
So I should tell my job to pay me like 2 bucks an hr and instead of making 20,000 a year me and my kids can be happy with 3,000 a year. Come on even if a company had high demand if they could they would still try to pay us like 30 cent an hr company's don't care about the employees
tinyface 4 months ago
shut up minimum wage ain't shit even at the whopping $7-$8.
comna 5 months ago
pay people their money. who wants to work for five dollars an hour.
Mr1700 6 months ago
This is why I say YES to UNION! =)
ernesdee2o916 7 months ago
@ernesdee2o916 Like raising the minimum wages, unions is another way to artificially give people raises and limit employment to the unskilled. Unions are responsible for inflation of goods and services by offering higher wages and benefits that is bargained w/o looking at the level of monies made or lost particularly in the govt unions. "Raise the taxes to pay for govt union workers," leftist officials would say. Socialism works only when the taxpayers are prosperous.
hoorano 6 months ago
Seriously?
Vahtacen 7 months ago
But people will likely have a self set minimum wage in order to be employed, because they want to have a standard of living that they feel that they have earned covered. And finding a job is a full time job. If I set myself up to work at a $7.50/hour lifestyle, I will not likely work for less if my company has to lay me off because I will already have fixed costs that reflect my $7.50/hour lifestyle. Better to risk longer unemployment and look for a job full time, than settle for less.
MacabreManifesto 8 months ago
@jnick1980 You're confusing the issue, wealth does create jobs. Jobs are created by initial investment. Those workers wouldn't have had jobs if Henry Ford didn't put forth the money and risk a lot of his money to make those jobs, the fact they he prospered sustained those jobs, if he had made an improper investment he would have been very poor, no matter the number of workers he had. Lots of companies go under with many workers.
s0beit 8 months ago
@s0beit Actually Ford was terrible businessman. He nearly drove that company into the ground b/c he seemed to think they could produce one car - the Model T - forever. That's way GM overtook Ford in the mid to later 1920s and Ford had to be nearly strong armed into producing new and different models. Fact remains, however, he would have had nothing had it not been for the labor of others who created his wealth.
xexixk 8 months ago
@jnick1980 That's your perception, CEOs are worth whatever investors intend to pay them, it doesn't really matter what you think, it isn't your money. Either way, do you think policies like these lower CEO paychecks? Ha! That's not the end result, sorry, just like with corporate taxes (not on income, mind you), it gets passed on in a lower amount of workers or a higher price in products, or they ship the job elsewhere, where you can't control them.
s0beit 8 months ago
@s0beit Sorry, no CEO is worth $40 million, there's nothing particularly unique about what they do - many, many people have the talents and skills to do what they do but they didn't have the fortunate of being in the right place at the right time, working at the right place or being in a position to kiss the right ass on the way up the corporate ladder. It's this unmitigated greed of those at the very top which you defend so much that is destroying this country and the lives of ordinary people.
xexixk 8 months ago
@jnick1980
I see sObeit digs the wingnut rallying cry of "socialism" to support his BS ideas to bring down the middle class. Anything that maintains a quality of life 4 the 95% of American's like min wage/unions who struggle working 2 jobs, 60-70hrs a wk to provide a roof over the head, food on the table, gas in the tank is "socialism" & labeled redistribution of wealth ,whereas anything they want, like the massive farmiing subsidies (big govt handouts to farm bus) is a "safety net". LMAO!
RioDreaming 8 months ago
@RioDreaming Uh, no, I don't support subsidies or any form of government help to any corporation anywhere, I don't know where most of you people came from, probably some sort of youtube group dedicated to sweeping statements and straw man arguments from what I can tell.
s0beit 8 months ago
@jnick1980 Attempting to bring your way through force doesn't work and it's just cruel, causes all sorts of unintended consequences. I'd be fine with your way of coercing everyone to follow the rules arbitrarily set forth by our government masters if it was all roses and daisies but it isn't.
s0beit 8 months ago
@jnick1980 That's your perception, not mine. It isn't like the north was always that way, the entire country was fairly racist once upon a time, the key difference being the north expanded more rapidly economically than the south, causing people of different races to interact more frequently and personally with one another. That isn't a coincidence on my end. This is coming from a northerner by the way.
s0beit 8 months ago
@jaybb789 Making yourself seem really intelligent there
s0beit 8 months ago
@jnick1980 So you want equal distribution of profit? Just socialism, that's your answer? That's a completely separate argument, I don't even feel the need to address it. Those people make more because the company apparently thinks they should make more for the decisions they make, it's the companies money, they have every right to do that even if it does seem foolish to you. Workers are paid based on productivity of their position and what they're willing to work for collectively, no less.
s0beit 8 months ago
@jnick1980 Voting rights I agree with, nobody should be deprived of the right to vote, Jim Crow laws were just that, laws, the state forced people to enforce those laws. A grand majority would not have supported them, especially businessmen, because they needed to invest more and profit less because of them. Build seperate bathrooms, fountains, schools, it was ridiculous from an economic prospective. Those aren't the same as labor related laws you're talking about, though.
s0beit 8 months ago
@jaybb789 I've seen that video and while it's sad comparible to now, back then, people were fucking _poor_, there were no roads to speak of, no vehicles for a large part of that time, economic productivity was very very low. I have no doubt that people went a little hungrier after the bill passed, especially the desperately poor. You have to remember that today, the poorest of America are richer than the richest of the late 1800s.
s0beit 8 months ago
@jnick1980 That's just false though, they would have came eventually if time allowed it, they just ended up hampering economic growth (in the case of western countries). Better working conditions formed even now, after those laws are passed, without the government. Sitting in a chair as a telemarketer seems harsh, cubicles seem horrible, but compared to back breaking farm work they're by a wide margin much, much better. Living standards have also increased over time, globally, for everyone.
s0beit 8 months ago
@jaybb789 Alright well now I'm replying to you respectfully and you just go back to name calling. Have fun with that, in any case, back to what i was saying, the children _must_ work in those countries or people will starve, period, in the case of Bangladesh i mentioned earlier, they outlawed child labor in an unproductive economy and people starved and turned to prostitution because they needed that income. Read the UN report on the subject if you don't believe me, they conclude the same as me.
s0beit 8 months ago
@jnick1980 Child labor is a function of poverty and necessity, you can't simply outlaw it. Let's say for example we're impoverished and need 10$ a day to survive, we each make 3$ a day and we have a child, obviously, we need 4$ and if we don't get it somebody is going to go hungry that day. That's why child labor exists, because economically speaking their society isn't productive enough to pay people enough to provide for multiple individuals.
s0beit 8 months ago
@jnick1980 That's how our nation grew, that's how Hong Kong grew, that's how nations continue to grow. There will always be somebody below somebody else, the question is how low is the lowest man on the totem poll? In a hundred years I want the poorest nations to be like the Netherlands today, that's my vision. Back to child labor, I'll explain as detailed as i can why child labor is not a force stopped by the government in my next reply.
s0beit 8 months ago
@jnick1980 It's exploiting poverty to you, it's economic growth to me. Jobs go here instead of retaining all jobs here strictly because of how cheap they are, if they were paid wages near ours there would be no incentive for them to be hired at all, if they aren't hired at all they live in impoverished nations forever. I want them working more so they can build more infrastructure so they can be richer in the long term. I don't like seeing people poor, but solving it is my concern, not hampering
s0beit 8 months ago
@jaybb789 Uh, actually, I only dish them out when they're given to me. I'm not going to take part in your flame war, start presenting some arguments and I'll respond otherwise I'm ready and willing to paint you with the same brush you paint me with.
s0beit 8 months ago
@jnick1980 s0beit probably uses Lewis HInes' famous photos of American child laborers as his masturbation material. Nothing but evil comes from his mouth.
MaryJo1950 8 months ago
@MaryJo1950 You people are sacks of emotion gushing non-logical economically brain-dead puke. I'd certainly rather be seen as correct on a subject and evil to you, than wrong and altruistic to you. Sorry I can't accommodate.
s0beit 8 months ago
@s0beit You are the one spouting puke that is devoid of any historical knowledge. There''s nothing correct in anything you've said here. You don't care about people or the conditions of their lives, all you do is excuse and defend those who exploit, rob and would enslave people if allowed to do so. Next you will probably be defending forced labor - after all that would be a great way for a company to maximize it's profits.
MaryJo1950 8 months ago
@MaryJo1950 I don't support forced labor. Please cite which is incorrect and I'll reply to you, but please do note that while you said my replies were "devoid of historical knowledge" you just went totally ad hominem and didn't actually make an argument. I'd like that to stop please.
s0beit 8 months ago
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@MaryJo1950"probably uses Lewis HInes' famous photos of American child laborers as his masturbation material. Nothing but evil comes from his mouth.'MaryJo1950.
This nut's an ignoramus & worse he's devoid of heart or soul. He touts the party line to support 'the rich getting richer & the poor getting poorer'. He wants slave labor- they miss their plantations. This group of selfish, greedy A-holes are myopic imbeciles. Their very survival depends on the working class being strong & healthy.
1huayna 8 months ago
@jnick1980 People in those impoverished nations love it when a corporation comes to their area actually, they pay better wages than other companies around them and the conditions are comparably better to them, mind you, not to us. I think you're the utopian, you have no idea how economic growth occurs. Go watch videos about what people in those countries think about the subject, it's rarely talked about but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it. They're excited because jobs mean food.
s0beit 8 months ago
@jaybb789 Wow personal attacks and no arguments, you are clearly my intellectual superior.
s0beit 8 months ago
In addition to your claim of lower employment, the higher minimum wage artificially raises the cost of living (higher inflation). When unskilled labor have more money via higher min. wages, businesses can afford to raise the prices of goods and services. Demand for goods and services rises if more people have money in their pockets.
hoorano 9 months ago
"allowing society to accumulate capital" thats rich...Typical reaganomics double speak. What that really means is allowing the very rich to merge and get even richer while continuously lowering the standard of living of everyone around them until the gap between the rich and the poor is as we see today. 1000 people with 30 houses, jets, cars, and buildings all to themselves, and billions who cant get access to clean water or basic health. Trickle down economics doesnt work.
mrrealtime 10 months ago
@mrrealtime So the fact that the wealthy elite bribe politicians to give their competition a competitive disadvantage or make competition all out illegal so that they can turn their business into a monopoly and charge artificially high prices and offer artificially low quality so that they can make higher profit margins in no way helps in increasing the wealth disparity? It's all the unhampered free market. Yes?
JacobSpinney 10 months ago
@JacobSpinney
Triple Thumbs UP!
swu880 9 months ago
@JacobSpinney
Where's the evidence that minimum wage is above the equilibrium of market price? That aside your assuming that the cost to a business is equal to their output or revenue.
If you take two seconds to look up "Economies of scale" you'll notice why the minimum wage increases unemployment argument fails.
AndroidPolitician 7 months ago
@AndroidPolitician Evidence? Ever seen people who are homeless yet still pickup cans? Or try to squeegee your windows for any sort of tip? Whatever they are earning for each hour of work is well below the minimum wage and yet they still work doing it. Now a lot of recycling would be done if someone could actually organize people to grab those cans for a minimal wage.
Full serve at pumps, lack of cashiers, ushers, there's plenty of evidence of the damage of minimum wage.
sirellyn 5 months ago
@sirellyn Did you know that poverty is highest in places where the minimum wage is lowest?
People only work for low wages because they don't have any other choice. However, The problem for capitalism is that the less money people make, the less they have to spend and so deflationary depression occurs. Unfortunately for capital, demand tends to collapse when production is highest. This is the business cycle of boom and bust. Thats the high cost of low-wages and why high wages are a good thing.
durruti612 5 months ago
@durruti612 Where do you think the money comes from? It's nice to say poverty is low in a country that has welfare and a high minimum wage, until you realize they borrow every year to keep it up. Like saying you live the high life but only on a credit card. Worse still when you see those are countries on the economic decline, where everyone is getting poorer.
Last decade China elevated 300 million from African levels of dirt poor to middle class (more than US pop). Still no minimum wage.
sirellyn 5 months ago
@sirellyn China elevated 300 million? Is that why we see massive strike waves and protests all over China demanding higher wages recently? China has more poverty today than it did a decade ago. the difference is that there are more millionaires so the 'average wage' is higher. An example; what's the average wage of 10 self-sufficient farmers? around 0 right? Now, make 1 a millionaire and the other 9 factory workers earning poverty wages in a big city. what is the average wage now?
durruti612 5 months ago
@durruti612 lol would you listen to yourself? First it's bad that 300 million people went from abject poverty to owning cars and houses, in fact somehow it makes the people who still aren't rich poorer. Not that they've actually earning less. Now it's based on the average wage for you.
So you are screwed if you work hard and do well because now you owe everyone else and should pay them. I guess this explains why a lot of people are poor and getting poorer.
Wouldn't want to raise that avg.
sirellyn 5 months ago
@sirellyn No, what i said was; 300 mil did not go from poverty to owinging cars and houses. I said there is more poverty and inequality. Where do you get that 300 mil figure from?
durruti612 5 months ago
@durruti612 Google:
forbes Within A Generation, China Middle Class Four Times Larger Than America's
None of these people are taking government money for welfare/minimum wage. They are creating wealth. Not siphoning from the US, CREATING. As in new wealth that never existed before. Even if they could siphon you can't get 4x the pop of the US wealthier than the US by siphoning money.
Greatest number of people to rise to middle class in shortest time in all of history
No welfare/minimum wage
sirellyn 5 months ago
@sirellyn again, china has minimum wage laws. welfare exists in china too. the state intervenes in the economy in ways unheard of here. its a type of capitalism alright, state capitalism. And no, China's middle class , by any reasonable defenition of the term "middle class", is not 4x bigger than the US. even if it were true, so what? if a slave is treated better today than he was yesterday, does that justify slavery? hell no!
durruti612 4 months ago
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@durruti612 Google:
forbes Within A Generation, China Middle Class Four Times Larger Than America's
None of these people are taking government money for welfare/minimum wage. They are creating wealth. Not siphoning from the US, CREATING. As in new wealth that never existed before. Even if they could siphon you can't get 4x the pop of the US wealthier than the US by siphoning money.
Greatest number of people to rise to middle class in shortest time in all of history
No welfare/minimum wage
sirellyn 5 months ago
@sirellyn Also, each region in China has a minimum wage set by the local government.
durruti612 5 months ago
@sirellyn
No that's more like you seeing some poor people on the street and coming up with a conclusion. The actual evidence shows minimum wage helps decrease unemployment.
AndroidPolitician 4 months ago
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@AndroidPolitician "The actual evidence shows minimum wage helps decrease unemployment. "
I would love to see the formula they used to calculate that. A source would be excellent.
As for the people on the street I'm stating a fact. Or do they not do those things for money? And are those sums of money often less than minimum employment?
sirellyn 4 months ago
@JacobSpinney
The fundemental thing you are missing mister jacob, is that these monolopies exist already , they are already in place, getting rid of the government and minimum wage will not allow you or your friends to catch up or take over the monolopies, because dear sir... they ALREADY have the advantage.
Free Market just means smaller companies trying to undercut the monolopies.... they'll beat your pay by offering minimum wage anyway... Who's going to work for YOU?
fool.
stewie1974 6 months ago
"Oh gee, this new independant company with a lot of capital is offering me 5 dollars an hour in poor working conditions, or this existing monolopy which is in no threat of going under , is offering me 10 dollars an hour, who shall I work for?"
The corperate giants are here, and they will laugh in your face and crush you if you get your dream of a free market and if you even begin to get a little bit successful, they'll buy you up.... hey , free market right?
stewie1974 6 months ago
@stewie1974 Monopolies can be broken with competition. Apple (APPL) has overcame the once dominant Microsoft's (MSFT) in the personal computer market. If the rise of minimum wage was absent, I can guarantee that the Apple Stores would be even bigger today.
hoorano 6 months ago
@JacobSpinney The unhampered free market is a fairy tale for people who have no interest in history and the well being of humanity. What matters in the real world is power, not hyper-intellectualized masturbation over how wonderful the world would be if humans were "rational maximizers of self-interest" working in an environment of "absolute freedom" leading to "perfect equality" in the "free market." Yes, and balls would keep on rolling forever on an imaginary frictionless plane.
DonVoghano 4 months ago
@mrrealtime Reaganomics was not real free market capitalism.
Take government spending for example:
"In 1980, the last year of free-spending Jimmy Carter the federal government spent $591 billion. In 1986, the last recorded year of the Reagan administration, the federal government spent $990 billion, an increase of 68%. Whatever this is, it is emphatically not reducing government expenditures."
Article: mises[dot]org[slash]daily[slash]1544
janc71 9 months ago
@janc71 And from the HBO documentary film 'Reagan' (a little over an hour into the film):
"Reaganomics was sold as less government, in other words, less spending and less taxes. But there's a fundamental deception about that, because there was only less spending in certain area's." (defence spending increased)
janc71 9 months ago
@janc71 On the contrary, lower taxes causes higher tax revenues. Why? Lower taxes means lower cost to operate businesses; thus, more jobs to offer. The more jobs created, the higher tax revenue via more people paying income taxes.
The opposite is true. When the taxes are higher, cost of businesses rises; thus, higher unemployment. When there is less people employed, the lower the tax revenue. Do you really think that the behavior of the job creators would remain the same when taxes are raised.
hoorano 9 months ago
@hoorano No, I totally agree with you on this, so I don't see why this is a reply to me. Mistake?
janc71 9 months ago
@janc71 Sorry dude. Yeah, I clicked the wrong post ;).
hoorano 6 months ago
@mrrealtime I don't see anything wrong with wealthy people getting wealthier. "Trickle down" economic is not something automatic. It takes effort for anyone to become wealthier. N. Korea, Cuba and Mexico are good example of equality of wealth. Everyone is poor thanks to their govt socialist economics. What is ironic is that the dictators live a wealthy lifestyle while everyone is equally poor. The USA quality of life is way better than those countries I've mention. Even our poor lives better.
hoorano 9 months ago
@mrrealtime Aren't these people funny? The minimum wage in Australia is $15 AUD (thats a but over $16 USD) and the Australian job market is much better, they actually have a demand for skilled workers in a variety of fields - everything from the minning industry to education to medical. Their economy is currently much better than that of the US. These people are deluded utopians and would willingly follow their own executioner, not realizing what was going on until it was too late.
xexixk 9 months ago
@xexixk You're seriously attributing Australia's entire economy to a high minimum wage? Relative to us, that's even richer. First of all, it could be that Australia is doing quite well. That's good, but the minimum wage has no effect on it. The point is, you can't raise wages ABOVE the market price by too much or you'll eliminate a lot of jobs. So, why isn't the minimum wage 20 AUD? 30? 100? What would that do to the job market? (cont)
s0beit 9 months ago
@s0beit 2/2 other choice. When there were no minimum wage laws in this country it didn't work out as people such as yourself claim it would and it doesn't work out today in many other parts of the world where there is either no minimum wage or a very low minimum wage - all they have to show for it is sweatshops and jobs that pay pennies an hour.
xexixk 8 months ago
@xexixk and actually when there were no minimum wage laws things were never better for industrial growth and people were living comparatively better than before, the reason is because wages aren't just some arbitrary thing employers set, it's called the labor MARKET for a reason. If your logic is correct, doctors, computer technicians, engineers should be getting paid minimum wage because there's nothing stopping employers from doing that. A book, open one.
s0beit 8 months ago
@s0beit 1/2 When did I say it was all about the high minimum wage in Australia? It just proves your theory about the minimum was destroying jobs is false. Get rid of the minimum wage in the US and what do you plan to do when the vast majority of the jobs in the country go to $2 or $3 an hour? Of course you say it will never happen, but it would and don't try that argument about employers competing for workers by offering high wages. The majority would just offer low wages and people would have
xexixk 8 months ago
@xexixk Jobs wouldn't go to $2 or $3 an hour, assertions like that make it crystal clear you have no idea how wages or set or how an economy works, nice one. It does destroy jobs, it's been concluded by almost every economist mainstream or not, in almost every study done because economically, it makes sense. People who have labor worth less than the minimum wage, i.e. people who would impose a negative cost on the company hiring them, won't be hired, how is this hard to understand?
s0beit 8 months ago
@s0beit You should go open a book as well. Wages didn't rise and working conditions didn't improve until after the beginning of the labor movement when people had enough and people demanded it. Child labor didn't vanish until it was prohibited by law. If there are no other jobs for the majority of people other than low paying jobs for $2 or $3 an hour they will have no other choice but to take them or starve. Your theories certainly are not playing out in other parts of the world.
xexixk 8 months ago
@xexixk Look, you're just getting pathetic at this point. Child labor was not stopped by law. If you want to make another reply on this go ahead, but I have things like, uh, evidence that say you're completely wrong. Bangladesh tried to outlaw child labor, they didn't have the market to do it - it wasn't productive enough. People starved and children became prostitutes because they NEEDED that money to SURVIVE. That's your theory in the real world.
s0beit 8 months ago
@s0beit Sorry you have no evidence, just the unproven theory of others and yourself. History contridicts you. People got better wages and working conditions because they fought for them, not because of the "genorosity" of industrialists. Child labor went away in the US when it was abolished by law. Attempting to justify child labor as a solution to poverty does nothing but sustain both child labor and poverty. Education and decent opportunities fight poverty, not child labor. Bangladesh?
xexixk 8 months ago
@s0beit The most current information I have found (from 2010) states that the minimum monthly wage for a garment worker in Bangladesh is about $25. Perhaps if adult workers were decently paid then their children wouldn't have to work. The western businesses doing business with them could do that, but no that would involve the posibility of some executive some where risking taking a small hit in his salary.
xexixk 8 months ago
@xexixk
We're going in a bad direction. The GOP is blackmailing the country again in it's determination to destroy medicare, refusing to raise the debt ceiling. If the GOP was "in" they would have to raise the debt ceiling and the Dems would vote for it doing the right thing for America and American's. I guess evil is running rampant in the U.S. at this point.
RioDreaming 8 months ago
@xexixk "Perhaps if adult workers were decently paid" if they were paid more than any other impoverished country they wouldn't be hired in the first place, then they'd have no economic growth. You are fucking economically illiterate, i swear it. "Attempting to justify child labor as a solution to poverty does nothing but sustain both child labor and poverty", stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard.
s0beit 8 months ago
@s0beit Actually all of this BS you spout is the stupiest thing ever, since you like to use childish insults towards those who disagree with you then I will return the favor. Go read some history you fucking idiot. Child labor in the US did not go away until it was abolished by law - starting at the state level and finally at the federal level in 1938. Wages did not raise and working conditions did not improve until people had had enough and rose up and demanded better pay and conditions.
xexixk 8 months ago
@s0beit You are the one who is the moron here. You actually believe that these kind hearted industrialists and big businesses would never ever take advantage of anyone, exploit any segment of society or have people working in dangerously unsafe conditions if they could get away with it. You are an ignorant fool who knows nothing of history or human nature. All you do is spout these ridiculous theories that history has proven wrong time and time again.
xexixk 8 months ago
@s0beit Best thing you could do is put down your copy of Atlas Shrugged and go get out in the real would and learn for yourself how the world really operates. You mentioned Bangladesh before - if people like you had your way that's exactly the kind of society we would end up living in. You are a fool. If you get your way and are unable to find any work other than that works you 7 days a week for 15 or more hours a day for about $2 an hour don't cry about it.
xexixk 8 months ago
@xexixk You still haven't answered my question of why people - anyone - get paid above minimum wage.
According to your concept of how the economy works, this shouldn't ever happen. I don't think you know how it happens and I don't think you have an answer. Thanks for your time.
s0beit 8 months ago
@s0beit 2/2 If you serious want such people to be paid $1 or $2 dollars an hour then you had better be prepared for massive amounts of money to be pumped into all of those social and welfare programs that you people hate so much, because they will only become more needed as people become more desperate to feed themselves and their families. All your ideas would succeed in doing is putting on us on an ever more accelerated path to becoming a banana republic.
xexixk 8 months ago
@s0beit 1/2 No one here has said that people with more training or specialized skills do not earn more or should not earn more. Although there are those with training and education - such as teachers - who often earn less than some who have less education. You still can't explain why in your system those at the bottom already scraping by on wages they cannot live on "deserve" to be paid even less.
xexixk 8 months ago
@xexixk People wouldn't be paid 1 or 2 dollars an hour unless they agreed to it, that's my point. That's the entire reason why I keep asking you why ANYONE has a wage above minimum, they do because wages are not just set by employers, they're also set by the workforce. Nothing obligates people to take jobs which are extremely low in wage, the more scarce your labor is, the more the price goes up, low wages nobody would take means they raise the price until somebody does take it.
s0beit 8 months ago
@s0beit If people can only find jobs paying $2 an hour - which will be the result b/c most people are not doctors, etc. who can successfully demand higher paying jobs - then they have no real choice. If that is what you want, then you had better be prepared for a massive new demand for food stamps, welfare and other public assistance programs. Point out to a real world example where this has played out in a western country in modern times, not just theoretically on paper.
xexixk 8 months ago
@s0beit If a person in need of work is offered a job in a retail store for X dollars an hour (regardless of how much or how little it is) they are not likely to turn the offer down (unless they have some othe rmeans of support) because they need the job, so they have no real choice. It's not as if they could realistically expect the employer to offer them more if they said "Well I'm interested but X dollars an hr. isn't enough, I want XX an hour."
xexixk 8 months ago
@xexixk How about this proposal then, instead of ending the minimum wage you give workers the option to opt out of it, mind you, you don't give businesses the option to set wages lower, but if