While researching good shaders and lighting effects are very important for reaslistic graphics (e.g. SSAO in Crysis and SSDO in Crysis 2), other aspects are also important. I think that using significantly improved texturing and modeling should be the focus of the next game engine generation. Because, this video with Crysis shaders and lighting effects would look really impressive...
Apart from the rotating foliage that spins with the camera, and a white crackle on the top of the table in the house (one with the red lamp on it) it looks great. Can't wait for the day this appears in actual games. Wont be on the current gen of consoles though that's for sure
Not to trivialize the incredibly hard and awesome work here. While it may be made up of 100 billion triangles... its normal maps and virtual texturing. Its not incredibly different from current gen tech. That being said, the asset pipeline he has here to generate normal maps/lods is pretty awesome.
It looks nice but, to me, looks no better than what is already out there. Like AudioCorps said, what would happen when there is a lot of action/effects flying about, like Halo or Killzone for instance. Still, I guess that it is early days and it is always nice to see developers coming up with new techniques to push existing technology further. I wasn't impressed with Cry Engine 3 on consoles-too glitchy, inconsistent. . ID 5 looks promising as does the engine running Skyrim
@SunkenPirate Forza 4 uses this even in the interview they said the graphics came from kinect(Mega Meshes).Halo 4 will be running in a modified halo reach engine and Halo remake will be running in updated halo reach engine.Forza 4 is the only upcoming game using this but 2012 exclusives will use this.Gears was finish before this tec even shown and the game wasnt made for this tec.
@AudioCorps Nah dude but the idea of mega meshes came out of kinect!Crytek would be the developer that will use this tec with their engine for the best 360 exclusive game ever.
@SunkenPirate its not like 3E represents the whole future of the Xbox 360, you just mention 3 games and you think you know it all.
Ryse does not need Mega Meshes, it uses Cry Engine 3 which is enough for graphics, Gears 3 will use standard Unreal Engine 3 or 4, Halo 4 will use Mega-meshes as Forza 4.
@LilProveInn I'm plenty agree with the E3 do not representing the whole thing, but is kind sad if all the good things only work under the cover of silence. I was expecting a new bunch of announcements to 2012, but you know, it was just me.
got back into gaming recently & bought a 2nd hand xbox360 and a ps3.. we also topped up our £8 a month lovefilm subscription with a £2.50 a month game rental add on, never been better off for titles & platforms!
saving so much compared to if we'd even got 1 new console & game that we will get a wii to accesses all of nintendos delights through lovefilm, can't beat ~£30 a year to access all those games
what can i say i'm a thrift merchant who wants it all
You know I wish you guys would actually read the GDC slides, this is a clever content creation tool which allows artists to modify data consisting of billions of polygons. They are then simplified down to normal levels for the runtime mesh (the mesh you see ingame), it doesn't actually render billions of polygons in real time.
@milontua if you havent notice fable 3 was rushed out since Lionhead has been developing/co-developing several games and still working on the next kinect sowftware update(Fall 2011).First 360 exclusive to use this is forza 4.
Great stuff bsugden and a superb paper, very nice read. I found the mesh reduction thought process brilliant, I would love an extra paper just on that... The Albedo Compression is also mind-bending. Trully next generation engine stuff! Keep up the great work!
I'd love to see a game based on this tech. The atmosphere...it's so bucolic. I'm so over the grey atmosphere of most modern games. This demonstration reminds me a little of Valkyria Chronicles.
Neat! So this is basically a combo of JC's MegaTexture for displacement combined with what's functionally nVidia's instanced tessellation? Or do you use the HW tessellator on Xenos? Or, God forbid, the CPU?
(Don't mind the flaming-- this is YouTube, it's going to happen and there isn't much you can do short of disabling comments :|)
@InvalidPointer Read the slides: there's not tesselation. It's more about LOD generation, generating and using optimal geometry depending on size of objects on screen, easier pipeline for artists...
@Tfpsly Right, but if you look at where the runtime bits are described they make mention of a sort of adaptive geometry resolution trick whereupon new, higher-detail bits of the cage are streamed in (assuming, of course, I am understanding the description properly) and 'added' into the low-detail base mesh.
I can imagine this this would be microtriangle hell if there isn't any runtime LOD to boot.
@Drgamerful Yes it DOES mean they are outdated. The hardware that xbox 360 and PS3 has is the equivalent to what would be a NVIDIA 7800 GTX. That's very OLD, a DX9 card, it's archaic.
This video basically showcases extreme tesselation....a DX11 feature. The xbox 360 has very weak hardware. These consoles are basically 6 year old PCs never upgraded. They can try to make it on Xbox like Crytek did with Crysis 1 for PS3, but it will never work, unless extreme optimism and dumbing down occurs.
@SilentPhenomed optimization* not optimism lol. But sure, why not be optimistic lol. Btw, in the video showcases a small small SMALL map the way I see it. Put a big map in this engine with moving parts, working physics, and some actual gameplay elements...........it just won't work.
@TheFred128 Lol, that's just a rumor. I've looked at the cars in Forza 3 very closely. You can see the edges are pretty sharp. Tesselation is supposed to have it where the edges are SUPER smooth. It's like a super AA. Not only that, but tesselation makes certain things in the environment pop out more. This isn't the case with Forza 3, and the roads are drawn textures. Tesselation, if it was included, would make the road more bumpy looking as if it was modeled there not drawn.
@SilentPhenomed yes forza 3 actually uses tessellation, but I believe it to be used only in cars but not sure if using tesselation in scenarios I do not know
@TheFred128 If i pull up a picture of a forza 3 car, there will be jagged edges around it. Jagged edges when tesselation is enabled? >_> The graphics processor in the 360's card is possible of tesselation. It's the same processor to the equivalent of a 7800 GTX by NVIDIA. But proper tesselation that actually works? Not possible. It could be a sense of tesselation they attempted but it is not true tesselation. Thus, tesselation doesn't exist in Forza 3. It's a mere rumor in my eyes.
@TheFred128 I have lol. It's rumors. There MIGHT be a tad bit of tesselation, but it is not considered true tesselation. And this tad bit of tesselation is probably just the Anti Aliasing 4X put in (which in that case, there's no tesselation at all). TRUE Tesselation does not exist for any console, they do not have DX11.
The video was really just intended to accompany my talk ( a link is in the notes). Just to confirm, it's running on a stock xbox360 at 30fps, although the video capture has made things look choppy.
This tech is totally viable on either an xbox or a ps3; the only overhead is for the CPU to stream and decompress the textures, and for the GI, totalling a couple of hyperthreads, with one only partially utilised (so roughly 1 core out of 3 used).
@bsugden How is this possible on ps3?You know this dx9 rendering rigth(360 only)?Ps3 uses open gl for rendering so I highly dought this can be made for the ps3.They can make a opengl version of this but for ps3 doesnt fully support dx9 so you wont see this in ps3!
@BillyBetYT lot of xbox fanboys too lulz, graphically the shit box won't ever pull a title with graphics to this extent haha, i happen to own both PS3 and Xbox, i'll tell everyone from putting thousands of hours into both, the PS3 blows the Xbox out of the water any day. There are some stellar titles on Xbox, some that are even worth owning a 360 for, but at the end of the day, when push comes to shove and we compare versatility, dynamics, picture, graphics, and full on capabilities.. PS3 = #1
@D1Champ08 Because hardware always means the best video games ever, especially since video games are software, something Microsoft does well compared to Sony. Having the best hardware doesn't mean anything when it's not being utilized.
It's nice but how will it look when there's characters, animations, AI, audio, physics, particle effects, etc going on and not just an empty environment? The framerate looks a little sketchy in this vid.
seems like an incredibly inefficient use of polys? doesnt look any better then some games already out either. the living room scene just looked like the opening of heavy rain and that didnt use tesselation? tesselation was clearly hampering the performance too, which is a complete no-no imo. by all means improve tech, but not at the expense of framerate
would be nice for MS to get a decent engine built FOR their console tho, cos they dont really have one atm.
looks good, but looks too cartoony. doesn't impress me as much as other people. people should see the cryteck 3 engine if this impresses them, their head will explode.
@adamgoku ALRIGHT THIS IF FOR EVERYONE TO READ!! THIS IS NOT A GENERAL GRAPHICS DEMONSTRATION!!!!!! IT IS A TESSELLATION DEMONSTRATION!!!! IT IS ABOUT TECHNIQUES BEING USED!!! THIS IS A TECH DEMO NOT A GAME!!! STOP COMPARING THIS TO OTHER GAMES!!! WHEN THIS TECHNIQUE IS IMPLEMENTED IN OTHER GAMES THEY WILL LOOK BETTER THAN THEY DO NOW!
The element that makes this so beautiful is the attention to every little detail. There are game with visuals like this, but their environment is so "ctrl+c ctrl+v" that it becomes blank. This is really beautiful!
@BillyBetYT What? I see none. Every PS3 exclusive video I go on has 360 fanboys and they take up the majority of the comments. I see no comments from raging PS3 owners.
Doesn't this kinda prove that the videos of the girl in the red hoodie interacting with milo were pre-rendered and she was acting? Afterall, those had a smooth frame rate and this video doesn't.
@BillyBetYT or buy a pc for even better graphics instead of rip off 360s that have 5 year old tech. btw i actually own an xbox for fable, RDR/GTA and forza
Why are you people assuming that this can't run on the 360 because it's outdated yes the 360 is outdated but if the engine is optimized to work with the 360 it will work just look at the final build of crysis 2 people are saying this is not 360 gameplay this is pc the 360 can't to these types of graphics this is to smooth and it actually was 360 gameplay lol.
@WuuEvil I agree with you.. This kind of graphics requires higher Processors+RAM+GPU.. If they put tis on Xbox 360, it will suffer from framerates and effects
Only the first and last scenes looks impressive to me.I would be surprised if 360 can do those scenes.They look like something you would expect on a next gen console.
@barlog20 This is done on the 360. Can't understand how people can't see this. And as for the middle scene... it's probably the most impressive or maybe the last scene. The middle scene shows a large amount of displacement mapping which is something only really seen now in directx11. I think this shows some very impressive tech from the xbox and I can't wait to see how they use this in upcoming exclusives
@oxman7 If that`s the case then we really don`t need a next gen console anytime soon(not that i`m begging for it,i`m content with current gen).If the 360 is capable of that then can you imagine what the PC can do?
@barlog20 Yea that's a fair point that upgrades aren't essential just yet. The problem is that the consoles do however have a lot less power than good computers. Yes the xbox 360 does have tessellation and an impressive ability for it aswell, but dx11 as you suggested can do a good amount more. The other thing is that consoles are where the money is, and most game players are, so graphically, advances hinge on new console generations even for pc to properly advance.
@BillyBetYT Dude it wont be happen, Xbox 360 is outdated already, and I know even game developers will agree with me that this kind of graphics requires higher processor like Quad or Six symmetrical core plus higher RAM. And Don't tell us dude that 360 has unified RAM, it's still insufficient for kind of graphics. And I will say it again, 360 has only 3 symmetrical cores which is outdated already... MS should release another Xbox successor
Hey @bsugden are you sure that your poly count is correct? because, assuming that your vertex in memory takes 44bytes (position/TC/normal/tangent), doing the maths your scene should take about 12293 GB ~ 12 TB, are you sure?? just for geometry.
Maths:
100 000 000 000 (100 billions)
100 000 000 000 x 3 = 300000000000 (3 vertex per poly)
I think its just a selling argument, its probably 100 billions polys as example of counting all the the high poly models sculpted on tools such as Zbrush/Mudbox for the whole level and props and then they're brought back to the lowpoly model with baked normal maps (from the high poly), ao,albedo etc.
@0Camus0 If you read the paper, you'll see that I store the data hierachially, only the low poly cage needs full vertex data. Either way, this is stored offline. I discuss compression of the runtime data in the paper too.
@XS7SXSNIPER apparently they have some uniqe tech that compresses the data then expands it to your TV so the console graphics will be a lot better than what everyone is used to, BF3 is gonna be a CoD killer >:D
no offense, but this was something the ps3 is capable of doing in real time at 50+ fps with slow down in areas with a lot of polygons, it's just that no game developer wants to waste their time on a console with architecture about as complex as the Saturn's. i won't be surprised if this game overheats older xbox models, more of a reason to get a slim.
@rumbazz dude please wake up ... PS3 with his gpu sucks at complex shaders and polycount and cell is to weak to reach anything more than some aa or simple postprocessess ..
That is unbelievable. I can see this sort of tech used in such xbox exclusives like as Alan wake 2, Kameo 2, Banjo kazooie, Perfect dark 2. Thats if these projects would ever come around.
Will mega-texturing potentially be rendered obsolete by concepts like mass physics where objects are essentially created by thousands of tiny objects to facilitate more realistic breakable things. Perhaps a return to voxels but at such a scale that tehy begin to approximate molecules albeit much larger tehn real molecules but still able to create the illusion of a type of atomism ?
I think a lot of these comments are a tad uneducated.... Models and objects in current games look highly detailed because of texture mapping that adds lighting information through whats called a normal map. This process seems to cut that whole work flow out letting the artist create art and removing a lot of the technical aspects such as Uv mapping and tech limitations such as texture size. Is this super sci fi in yo face action no but it does show some amazing tech where you are no longer
"Ideally, I would have liked to have used displacement maps, but I never got it running quick enough on the XBOX to be viable.
Recently, however, I’ve been doing some tests using displacement maps in DIRECT X 11 and got some very exciting results here, so I think the tech has good prospects for future hardware."
@Jo21 not impressed by your comment, since your favorite videos are usually only directing to ps3. subscibe to sony yet ? oh... wait. you did. Leave sony fanboy.
@Jo21 how does owning all consoles make a excuse ? I could easily say I own 4 ps3, 5 wiis, and 2 360. Does it matter? no. Just to come to someone's hard work and say it's not impressing is pretty disrespectful. What makes matter worse, you compared to another game, we all know how that will end up with that sort of comment. If you don't like it, dont waste your time on commenting, and leave. This video does not claim to be the better, it was just a tech demo. Show some respect.
Read the paper no unwrapping must be a big relief!
Impressive work overall , really like how it came out!
I am just curious about how the environment artist worked, so they make their lowpoly base mesh on xsi/maya/max then import into Zbrush/Mudbox... and then did they have a Zbursh file with a single terrain with many subtools or a single? or did they work with separated parts of the terrain and props in many ZTools files?
Just went through the PDF. What type of rendering times are you getting while pushing the data through the buffer?
Right now, you say you only have static lighting and use GI maps to get what you guys are using, but you can't make any form of dynamic lighting due to the work load, what about physics? I noticed "wind" on the trees, but was not sure if that was real time or not. While this looks like a great solution (or start) for DX11 cards, it looks iffy, on the 360, as you still have AI to do
Not to be "that guy", but does anybody else think this doesn't look that impressive at all? Everything is rounded and balooney, its like a low-detail Pixar movie. And devs have known for years now that lighting, particle effects, bump mapping, and pixel shading techniques can make for far better looking images than just bumping up the polycount.
big fucking deal....ive seen better Crysis graphics mods than this. I wont be surprised if someone recreates this in CryEngine 2 and its going to look ten times better.
Seriously, I dont think Xbox 360 can able to handle this graphics with stable frame rate with high quality with equal saturation and lighting.. Because I believe this kind of magnificent visual graphics requires higher Processor+Ram, I think Quad core will be good for this, But too bad as we all know already, Xbox has 3 symmetrical cores which is outdated already, so I doubt that this graphics is only for 360 exclusively.... I'm sure that this kind of graphics, is for next generation consoles
@joseph971 That would make sense, but mega-texturing seems to be made by Lionhead, a group that does games mainly for Microsoft's Xbox and WIndows OS. Unless They are allowed to sell the technology it may be exclusive to Microsoft...or maybe just Lionhead. Not to mention this is used in the Milo & Kate tech Demo by Lionhead.
@lordjamito007 No one said this was next-gen graphics, only you said that.
And if you are going to say something to start trolling, why don't you actually use examples...unless you are to dumb to find any. Thanks for sharing you two-sense worth of nothing, i'm sure your brain must be hurting right now.
@whydoyouask123 N4G Said that it was New Graphics Technology, That is how I came to this video. My argument is that this video is far from impressive because games have looked this good for years now. Take for example a game like Warhawk. No doubt you havnt played it because it's a relatively small game, however it was released by in 2007 and easily matches this video. If that doesn't grasp you, all I have to mention is the word Crysis and I'm sure you'll be getting the point. That to is from 07
@lordjamito007 Of course it's pretty old. It's always PC>consoles. You just can't compete against a PC because of the constant advancements in tech. :p
@hydzior I'd Say I do. I came to this page through a news site that told me This showcased an advancement in graphics technology, and I have stated that it is not impressive. For an Xbox 360, yeah sure it looks good, but it reminds me of Project Milo which was scrapped, in fact im pretty sure it's just a revamped version of that engine. I'm not saying the graphics are not impressive, I think they looks Amazing ! But for something that's supposed to be 'Future Tech' I expected a little more.
@lordjamito007 The technology is all about the development workflow-pipeline, which is very impressive. If you don't know anything about the game-art creation process, then this tech will be meaningless to you...
Thisdemo looks exactly like on Little Big Planet, there's nothing new to this sh!t, we already saw this magnificent type of graphics on the ps3. So Xbots can able to enjoy this kind of effects+visual after 6 years of 360 in the market. LOL
@Clarensee it's new technology, that's only just been announced. New games will no doubt start to adopt this technology and amazing things will happen, the technology will likely be licenced to games developed on the PS3 and PC too as it's not limited to just xbox hardware - sorry fanboys you'll have to find something else to bicker about!
Could you tell me what the three RTs at 1:07 represent? misses/?/real-mem-texture?
Interesting approach on first look. I hope to see it used (instead of shelved like the somewhat similar "The Room" demo) in an actual game / or see how actual collab-work is done in there. But what are the odds... but, keep it up!
Lion head has outdone themeselves.
milontua 1 month ago
While researching good shaders and lighting effects are very important for reaslistic graphics (e.g. SSAO in Crysis and SSDO in Crysis 2), other aspects are also important. I think that using significantly improved texturing and modeling should be the focus of the next game engine generation. Because, this video with Crysis shaders and lighting effects would look really impressive...
Kinokarte 2 months ago
Apart from the rotating foliage that spins with the camera, and a white crackle on the top of the table in the house (one with the red lamp on it) it looks great. Can't wait for the day this appears in actual games. Wont be on the current gen of consoles though that's for sure
mashedup1987 6 months ago
milking a dead cow, fucking smart!
shenglonglin 6 months ago
Not to trivialize the incredibly hard and awesome work here. While it may be made up of 100 billion triangles... its normal maps and virtual texturing. Its not incredibly different from current gen tech. That being said, the asset pipeline he has here to generate normal maps/lods is pretty awesome.
zelexi 7 months ago
It looks nice but, to me, looks no better than what is already out there. Like AudioCorps said, what would happen when there is a lot of action/effects flying about, like Halo or Killzone for instance. Still, I guess that it is early days and it is always nice to see developers coming up with new techniques to push existing technology further. I wasn't impressed with Cry Engine 3 on consoles-too glitchy, inconsistent. . ID 5 looks promising as does the engine running Skyrim
bagg10101 8 months ago
just curious, what would happen to a game utilizing this with a lot of action going on? on a console, of course.
AudioCorps 8 months ago
so.. there's went the mega meshes and mighty light announced at the GDC, and
the E3 went up since a week and nothing more.
the most sad is in that line saying "up-and-coming Xbox 360 exclusives.", in the
E3 were just Halo, Gears and Ryse, no one using those technics.
SunkenPirate 8 months ago
@SunkenPirate Forza 4 uses this even in the interview they said the graphics came from kinect(Mega Meshes).Halo 4 will be running in a modified halo reach engine and Halo remake will be running in updated halo reach engine.Forza 4 is the only upcoming game using this but 2012 exclusives will use this.Gears was finish before this tec even shown and the game wasnt made for this tec.
R3CT0 8 months ago
@R3CT0 kinect is not mega mesh...
AudioCorps 8 months ago
@AudioCorps Nah dude but the idea of mega meshes came out of kinect!Crytek would be the developer that will use this tec with their engine for the best 360 exclusive game ever.
R3CT0 8 months ago
@SunkenPirate its not like 3E represents the whole future of the Xbox 360, you just mention 3 games and you think you know it all.
Ryse does not need Mega Meshes, it uses Cry Engine 3 which is enough for graphics, Gears 3 will use standard Unreal Engine 3 or 4, Halo 4 will use Mega-meshes as Forza 4.
LilProveInn 8 months ago
@LilProveInn I'm plenty agree with the E3 do not representing the whole thing, but is kind sad if all the good things only work under the cover of silence. I was expecting a new bunch of announcements to 2012, but you know, it was just me.
SunkenPirate 8 months ago
got back into gaming recently & bought a 2nd hand xbox360 and a ps3.. we also topped up our £8 a month lovefilm subscription with a £2.50 a month game rental add on, never been better off for titles & platforms!
saving so much compared to if we'd even got 1 new console & game that we will get a wii to accesses all of nintendos delights through lovefilm, can't beat ~£30 a year to access all those games
what can i say i'm a thrift merchant who wants it all
thx for the amazing vid demo ;)
czescsamy 8 months ago
You know I wish you guys would actually read the GDC slides, this is a clever content creation tool which allows artists to modify data consisting of billions of polygons. They are then simplified down to normal levels for the runtime mesh (the mesh you see ingame), it doesn't actually render billions of polygons in real time.
1776Phoenix1986 8 months ago
why hasnt lion head incorparated this engine in there games , this engine would change fable for the better , even other lion head projects ?
milontua 9 months ago
@milontua if you havent notice fable 3 was rushed out since Lionhead has been developing/co-developing several games and still working on the next kinect sowftware update(Fall 2011).First 360 exclusive to use this is forza 4.
R3CT0 8 months ago
GI makes anything look delightful. Soft and dreamy with a sort of organic natural feel.
ronnysoeberg 9 months ago
Is it mega texturing or mega meshe? Check out your description.
gicusoft 9 months ago
@bsugden so what do you think of the Unlimited Detail engine, that's also on youtube?
puhgete 10 months ago
isn't that only possible on xbox (and of course PC) because of the tesselation chips it has? Because it is using the same concept. I think.
mcgrottys 10 months ago
holy....
yuman3 10 months ago
well its actually 0.1 Tpolygons, or 100 gigapolygons..
JeppeIbsen 11 months ago
Go Microsoft Go
Orikalch 11 months ago
and still that many edges?
nemesi5985 11 months ago
Wow, looks beautiful and amazing!
MatheusMK3 11 months ago
Oh my fucking god that water is so fucking beautiful!!
frozenskipper 11 months ago
@frozenskipper Heh, you should look at the water in Crysis.
Earo16 11 months ago
hmm, looks a little fake/plain
needs some sort of theme to make it look better
yellowflash345 11 months ago
wow this looks amazing!
jimmyward987 11 months ago
Lionhead FTW
axemahn 11 months ago
Most pixar animation movies take 2 years to model/animate, with this you'll be able to play/record everything in real time in-game.
Hobbitstomper 11 months ago
I call fake unless I see this used ON REAL HARDWARE.
ferhound 11 months ago
Comment removed
Tfpsly 11 months ago
Great stuff bsugden and a superb paper, very nice read. I found the mesh reduction thought process brilliant, I would love an extra paper just on that... The Albedo Compression is also mind-bending. Trully next generation engine stuff! Keep up the great work!
Mikeznation 11 months ago
the water looks awesome....they should remake WAVE RACE with this shit
zahkul 11 months ago
I'd love to see a game based on this tech. The atmosphere...it's so bucolic. I'm so over the grey atmosphere of most modern games. This demonstration reminds me a little of Valkyria Chronicles.
nvr099 11 months ago
ROFLMAO snails
sifiuocz 11 months ago
This is absolutely amazing, but makes me feel even more gutted that the game has been 'cancelled'
rollmodelesq 11 months ago
Wow I really would like to play a game based on this scenery. Looks soooooo nice!
SawJompe 11 months ago
This is the second part of this demo OMFG it looks even better !
/watch?v=7hEhU1q_BWw&feature=related
xStalkerxx 11 months ago
Neat! So this is basically a combo of JC's MegaTexture for displacement combined with what's functionally nVidia's instanced tessellation? Or do you use the HW tessellator on Xenos? Or, God forbid, the CPU?
(Don't mind the flaming-- this is YouTube, it's going to happen and there isn't much you can do short of disabling comments :|)
InvalidPointer 11 months ago
@InvalidPointer Read the slides: there's not tesselation. It's more about LOD generation, generating and using optimal geometry depending on size of objects on screen, easier pipeline for artists...
Tfpsly 11 months ago
@Tfpsly Right, but if you look at where the runtime bits are described they make mention of a sort of adaptive geometry resolution trick whereupon new, higher-detail bits of the cage are streamed in (assuming, of course, I am understanding the description properly) and 'added' into the low-detail base mesh.
I can imagine this this would be microtriangle hell if there isn't any runtime LOD to boot.
InvalidPointer 11 months ago
@InvalidPointer That's a form of compression of disk and memory: Lod(n) stores only the additional geometry from Lod(n-1) - see slide 14.
When sending geometry to a GPU vertex buffer, all required vertexes are put in the same VB.
Tfpsly 11 months ago
slug scene>FAIL!
TheAlexChase 11 months ago
Make it good, then fanboys wars will have little more sense
RobZombieHFN 11 months ago
@Drgamerful Yes it DOES mean they are outdated. The hardware that xbox 360 and PS3 has is the equivalent to what would be a NVIDIA 7800 GTX. That's very OLD, a DX9 card, it's archaic.
This video basically showcases extreme tesselation....a DX11 feature. The xbox 360 has very weak hardware. These consoles are basically 6 year old PCs never upgraded. They can try to make it on Xbox like Crytek did with Crysis 1 for PS3, but it will never work, unless extreme optimism and dumbing down occurs.
SilentPhenomed 11 months ago
@SilentPhenomed optimization* not optimism lol. But sure, why not be optimistic lol. Btw, in the video showcases a small small SMALL map the way I see it. Put a big map in this engine with moving parts, working physics, and some actual gameplay elements...........it just won't work.
SilentPhenomed 11 months ago
@SilentPhenomed Forza 3 uses tesselation in xbox 360 :P
TheFred128 11 months ago
@TheFred128 Lol, that's just a rumor. I've looked at the cars in Forza 3 very closely. You can see the edges are pretty sharp. Tesselation is supposed to have it where the edges are SUPER smooth. It's like a super AA. Not only that, but tesselation makes certain things in the environment pop out more. This isn't the case with Forza 3, and the roads are drawn textures. Tesselation, if it was included, would make the road more bumpy looking as if it was modeled there not drawn.
SilentPhenomed 11 months ago
@SilentPhenomed yes forza 3 actually uses tessellation, but I believe it to be used only in cars but not sure if using tesselation in scenarios I do not know
TheFred128 11 months ago
@TheFred128 If i pull up a picture of a forza 3 car, there will be jagged edges around it. Jagged edges when tesselation is enabled? >_> The graphics processor in the 360's card is possible of tesselation. It's the same processor to the equivalent of a 7800 GTX by NVIDIA. But proper tesselation that actually works? Not possible. It could be a sense of tesselation they attempted but it is not true tesselation. Thus, tesselation doesn't exist in Forza 3. It's a mere rumor in my eyes.
SilentPhenomed 11 months ago
@SilentPhenomed is not a rumor, forza 3 actually uses tessellation, research and see that this is true.
TheFred128 11 months ago
@TheFred128 I have lol. It's rumors. There MIGHT be a tad bit of tesselation, but it is not considered true tesselation. And this tad bit of tesselation is probably just the Anti Aliasing 4X put in (which in that case, there's no tesselation at all). TRUE Tesselation does not exist for any console, they do not have DX11.
SilentPhenomed 11 months ago
@SilentPhenomed lol xbox
XS7SXSNIPER 11 months ago
Thanks for all the feedback on this.
The video was really just intended to accompany my talk ( a link is in the notes). Just to confirm, it's running on a stock xbox360 at 30fps, although the video capture has made things look choppy.
This tech is totally viable on either an xbox or a ps3; the only overhead is for the CPU to stream and decompress the textures, and for the GI, totalling a couple of hyperthreads, with one only partially utilised (so roughly 1 core out of 3 used).
bsugden 11 months ago 21
@bsugden Ben: the video looked much shaper on the projector screen @GDC. There's too much compression here.
Would you have another version of this video somewhere online, with less compression artifacts? Thx.
Tfpsly 11 months ago
@bsugden How is this possible on ps3?You know this dx9 rendering rigth(360 only)?Ps3 uses open gl for rendering so I highly dought this can be made for the ps3.They can make a opengl version of this but for ps3 doesnt fully support dx9 so you wont see this in ps3!
R3CT0 9 months ago
@R3CT0 if you actually read the description, you would know that he knows more about this than you would.
AudioCorps 8 months ago
@BillyBetYT whose ben
normalguyhere 11 months ago
That reminds me of Crytek stuff, excellent work.
Spybreak9 11 months ago
Graphics look amazing but the sad part is, is once this gets out anything lower is fanboy flamed for bad graphics.
nintendoforumuser 11 months ago
can somone explain to me what a 100 billion polygons means ?
MrDavid7419 11 months ago
@BillyBetYT u aint seeing this shit on xbox 360
MrDavid7419 11 months ago
When too many elements are exposed, the framerate goes considerably down =\
gabrielgoma 11 months ago
nothing new moving on
kqgaming2 11 months ago
Totally getting a Pixar vibe. Awesome work with the lighting and color palette.
And could I please watch a tech video without idiotic Console wars?
kevlar60442 11 months ago
A lot of things in this video lack a lot of detail.
Not sure if it is the engine or the artist that made this, I've seen a lot better bump/displacement mapping.
Like the ship for example, I don't see the 100 billion polygons being used.
hedanit0 11 months ago
nigger
buchan23 11 months ago
@BillyBetYT lot of xbox fanboys too lulz, graphically the shit box won't ever pull a title with graphics to this extent haha, i happen to own both PS3 and Xbox, i'll tell everyone from putting thousands of hours into both, the PS3 blows the Xbox out of the water any day. There are some stellar titles on Xbox, some that are even worth owning a 360 for, but at the end of the day, when push comes to shove and we compare versatility, dynamics, picture, graphics, and full on capabilities.. PS3 = #1
D1Champ08 11 months ago
@D1Champ08 Because hardware always means the best video games ever, especially since video games are software, something Microsoft does well compared to Sony. Having the best hardware doesn't mean anything when it's not being utilized.
Icedmetal57 11 months ago
Nice, but still suffers from the old 2D foliage problem. Just after 1:30, as the camera turns, so do the plants by the shed.
ParanoimiaUK 11 months ago
fucking... beautiful
LinkVsRoxas 11 months ago
Looks bloody awesome! Nice work! I haven't had the chance to read though the PDF slides properly yet, but is there paper published on this?
AntiProtonBoy 11 months ago
It's nice but how will it look when there's characters, animations, AI, audio, physics, particle effects, etc going on and not just an empty environment? The framerate looks a little sketchy in this vid.
UFCNFLjunkie 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Looks really great. Very nice achievement, Ben.
MrUpload 11 months ago
seems like an incredibly inefficient use of polys? doesnt look any better then some games already out either. the living room scene just looked like the opening of heavy rain and that didnt use tesselation? tesselation was clearly hampering the performance too, which is a complete no-no imo. by all means improve tech, but not at the expense of framerate
would be nice for MS to get a decent engine built FOR their console tho, cos they dont really have one atm.
KORNdog1986 11 months ago
Too much bloom effect, a lot of bloom effect. doesnt impress me. some parts remind of heavy rain and portal.
Eaze2009 11 months ago
looks good, but looks too cartoony. doesn't impress me as much as other people. people should see the cryteck 3 engine if this impresses them, their head will explode.
adamgoku 11 months ago
@adamgoku ALRIGHT THIS IF FOR EVERYONE TO READ!! THIS IS NOT A GENERAL GRAPHICS DEMONSTRATION!!!!!! IT IS A TESSELLATION DEMONSTRATION!!!! IT IS ABOUT TECHNIQUES BEING USED!!! THIS IS A TECH DEMO NOT A GAME!!! STOP COMPARING THIS TO OTHER GAMES!!! WHEN THIS TECHNIQUE IS IMPLEMENTED IN OTHER GAMES THEY WILL LOOK BETTER THAN THEY DO NOW!
oxman7 11 months ago
I always thought uncharted 2 was just a good graphics engine, not some kind of alien super power of the PS3, as some ps3 fanboys thought.
graphics engine is everything!
when this engine is completely ready, and being used in a game for xbox 360, uncharted 2 will be completely pwned!
TheFred128 11 months ago
These comments have so much fail in them... This is a workflow innovation.
PhilMorton 11 months ago
The element that makes this so beautiful is the attention to every little detail. There are game with visuals like this, but their environment is so "ctrl+c ctrl+v" that it becomes blank. This is really beautiful!
gui874111 11 months ago
WOW!!! It looks INCREDIBLE.
The future games will look soooooo good.
SkemeKOS 11 months ago
@BillyBetYT What? I see none. Every PS3 exclusive video I go on has 360 fanboys and they take up the majority of the comments. I see no comments from raging PS3 owners.
GameOfYears 11 months ago
Is that the unlimited detail cloud thing technology ?
PikolUploader 11 months ago
ìt is impressive considering it runs on Xbox360. If it was a PC engine it would have been okish, but we all know that.
RemovdSande11 11 months ago
Doesn't this kinda prove that the videos of the girl in the red hoodie interacting with milo were pre-rendered and she was acting? Afterall, those had a smooth frame rate and this video doesn't.
FO18L 11 months ago
@FO18L they were all done with a stationary camera, of course there were no FR issues
PureSkyblade 11 months ago
@PureSkyblade I see you don't understand how this kinda stuff works....
FO18L 11 months ago
@FO18L haha if you say so mate.
PureSkyblade 11 months ago
xbox 360 fkıng ps3 :D so soon
unloser31 11 months ago
@BillyBetYT or buy a pc for even better graphics instead of rip off 360s that have 5 year old tech. btw i actually own an xbox for fable, RDR/GTA and forza
gernie8668 11 months ago
Why are you people assuming that this can't run on the 360 because it's outdated yes the 360 is outdated but if the engine is optimized to work with the 360 it will work just look at the final build of crysis 2 people are saying this is not 360 gameplay this is pc the 360 can't to these types of graphics this is to smooth and it actually was 360 gameplay lol.
allensanchez1990 11 months ago
@allensanchez1990 mhmm mhmmm yeah right :] . Wake up .
hydzior 11 months ago
@allensanchez1990 they de optimized crysis 2 for the consoles looks no where near as pretty as crysis did
gernie8668 11 months ago
god effect
daban300 11 months ago
Jeh and its done on high end PC with 4 - GPU's, good luck putting this power in shitbox... Not fanboying, just saying.
WuuEvil 11 months ago
@WuuEvil I agree with you.. This kind of graphics requires higher Processors+RAM+GPU.. If they put tis on Xbox 360, it will suffer from framerates and effects
joseph971 11 months ago
BAD COMPANY 2
sort of.
NathanCipher 11 months ago
Only the first and last scenes looks impressive to me.I would be surprised if 360 can do those scenes.They look like something you would expect on a next gen console.
barlog20 11 months ago
@barlog20 This is done on the 360. Can't understand how people can't see this. And as for the middle scene... it's probably the most impressive or maybe the last scene. The middle scene shows a large amount of displacement mapping which is something only really seen now in directx11. I think this shows some very impressive tech from the xbox and I can't wait to see how they use this in upcoming exclusives
oxman7 11 months ago
@oxman7 If that`s the case then we really don`t need a next gen console anytime soon(not that i`m begging for it,i`m content with current gen).If the 360 is capable of that then can you imagine what the PC can do?
barlog20 11 months ago
@barlog20 Yea that's a fair point that upgrades aren't essential just yet. The problem is that the consoles do however have a lot less power than good computers. Yes the xbox 360 does have tessellation and an impressive ability for it aswell, but dx11 as you suggested can do a good amount more. The other thing is that consoles are where the money is, and most game players are, so graphically, advances hinge on new console generations even for pc to properly advance.
oxman7 11 months ago
just cause 2 looks better
Pawlo033 11 months ago
@BillyBetYT Dude it wont be happen, Xbox 360 is outdated already, and I know even game developers will agree with me that this kind of graphics requires higher processor like Quad or Six symmetrical core plus higher RAM. And Don't tell us dude that 360 has unified RAM, it's still insufficient for kind of graphics. And I will say it again, 360 has only 3 symmetrical cores which is outdated already... MS should release another Xbox successor
joseph971 11 months ago
Hey @bsugden are you sure that your poly count is correct? because, assuming that your vertex in memory takes 44bytes (position/TC/normal/tangent), doing the maths your scene should take about 12293 GB ~ 12 TB, are you sure?? just for geometry.
Maths:
100 000 000 000 (100 billions)
100 000 000 000 x 3 = 300000000000 (3 vertex per poly)
13200000000000 bytes ( 44 bytes per vertex )
12890625000 KB
12588500.9765625 MB
12293.45798492431640625 GB
12.005330063402652740478515625 TB
0Camus0 11 months ago 9
@0Camus0
I think its just a selling argument, its probably 100 billions polys as example of counting all the the high poly models sculpted on tools such as Zbrush/Mudbox for the whole level and props and then they're brought back to the lowpoly model with baked normal maps (from the high poly), ao,albedo etc.
neodos1 11 months ago
@neodos1 I think you're right, there is no way to be runtime data.
0Camus0 11 months ago
@0Camus0 If you read the paper, you'll see that I store the data hierachially, only the low poly cage needs full vertex data. Either way, this is stored offline. I discuss compression of the runtime data in the paper too.
bsugden 11 months ago 10
@bsugden reading is for pussies
NecroSexy 11 months ago
@bsugden is any of the tech going to be used on any xbox title?
XS7SXSNIPER 11 months ago
@XS7SXSNIPER *cough* Battlefield 3 *cough*
queenlives4ever 11 months ago
@queenlives4ever for pc cough
XS7SXSNIPER 11 months ago
@XS7SXSNIPER apparently they have some uniqe tech that compresses the data then expands it to your TV so the console graphics will be a lot better than what everyone is used to, BF3 is gonna be a CoD killer >:D
queenlives4ever 11 months ago
@bsugden que...
Elit3Nick 7 months ago
Impressive tech, hope to see some 360 titles using it soon.
zionen01 11 months ago
@zionen01 360 ?? Ekhmmmm .... 720 maybe but not 360 :P
hydzior 11 months ago
N4G is like the game website for "special" kids.
Where a simple video showing a new tech becomes a stupid flamewar.
Grow up guys...grow up.
Congrats Ben , i can't wait to say a game using this awesome tech
revistinha1 11 months ago 16
no offense, but this was something the ps3 is capable of doing in real time at 50+ fps with slow down in areas with a lot of polygons, it's just that no game developer wants to waste their time on a console with architecture about as complex as the Saturn's. i won't be surprised if this game overheats older xbox models, more of a reason to get a slim.
rumbazz 11 months ago
@rumbazz dude please wake up ... PS3 with his gpu sucks at complex shaders and polycount and cell is to weak to reach anything more than some aa or simple postprocessess ..
hydzior 11 months ago
@hydzior you obviously never seen killing day
rumbazz 11 months ago
That is unbelievable. I can see this sort of tech used in such xbox exclusives like as Alan wake 2, Kameo 2, Banjo kazooie, Perfect dark 2. Thats if these projects would ever come around.
XC4RNAG3X 11 months ago
Looks pretty cool and like no money crap game at the same time lol
69KiRa 11 months ago
Will mega-texturing potentially be rendered obsolete by concepts like mass physics where objects are essentially created by thousands of tiny objects to facilitate more realistic breakable things. Perhaps a return to voxels but at such a scale that tehy begin to approximate molecules albeit much larger tehn real molecules but still able to create the illusion of a type of atomism ?
rayyf69 11 months ago
I think a lot of these comments are a tad uneducated.... Models and objects in current games look highly detailed because of texture mapping that adds lighting information through whats called a normal map. This process seems to cut that whole work flow out letting the artist create art and removing a lot of the technical aspects such as Uv mapping and tech limitations such as texture size. Is this super sci fi in yo face action no but it does show some amazing tech where you are no longer
Conundrummy 11 months ago
@Conundrummy limited by resolution size texture compression etc. Notice how in the video objects don't get blurry as the camera gets closer
Conundrummy 11 months ago
Gotta be less than 30fps, AA seems meh and the textures seem low res or really simple.
But I can't really say whether the achievement here is noteworthy.
Ashitaka255 11 months ago
That's in pc gaming before 2008 i think
Nothing much
PC = Dx11
Consoles = Dx9
LOOOL
Pedroxpvista 11 months ago 2
QUOTE FOR X360 FANBOYS:
"Ideally, I would have liked to have used displacement maps, but I never got it running quick enough on the XBOX to be viable.
Recently, however, I’ve been doing some tests using displacement maps in DIRECT X 11 and got some very exciting results here, so I think the tech has good prospects for future hardware."
kazioo2 11 months ago
not impressed really after uncharted 2
Jo21 11 months ago
@Jo21 not impressed by your comment, since your favorite videos are usually only directing to ps3. subscibe to sony yet ? oh... wait. you did. Leave sony fanboy.
mynameismrgooey 11 months ago
@mynameismrgooey i own all console. take a chill pill, its not impressive.
Jo21 11 months ago
@Jo21 how does owning all consoles make a excuse ? I could easily say I own 4 ps3, 5 wiis, and 2 360. Does it matter? no. Just to come to someone's hard work and say it's not impressing is pretty disrespectful. What makes matter worse, you compared to another game, we all know how that will end up with that sort of comment. If you don't like it, dont waste your time on commenting, and leave. This video does not claim to be the better, it was just a tech demo. Show some respect.
mynameismrgooey 11 months ago
Read the paper no unwrapping must be a big relief!
Impressive work overall , really like how it came out!
I am just curious about how the environment artist worked, so they make their lowpoly base mesh on xsi/maya/max then import into Zbrush/Mudbox... and then did they have a Zbursh file with a single terrain with many subtools or a single? or did they work with separated parts of the terrain and props in many ZTools files?
Thanks for sharing!
neodos1 11 months ago
Impresssive.
SuperFriendBFG 11 months ago
100 billion polygons and you can still see on the red chair in the beginning the arm isn't perfectly round.
PUNKem733 11 months ago
Maybe instead of 100 billion polygons they should have gotten some textures in there...
Triterion 11 months ago
Comment removed
Boolean121 11 months ago
looks like an Atari 2600 game
pointlessfailure 11 months ago
Who gives a shit about graphics, make some more games like Limbo.
MrEduardKhil 11 months ago
Awesome.XBOX rulez
vinicius774 11 months ago
Just went through the PDF. What type of rendering times are you getting while pushing the data through the buffer?
Right now, you say you only have static lighting and use GI maps to get what you guys are using, but you can't make any form of dynamic lighting due to the work load, what about physics? I noticed "wind" on the trees, but was not sure if that was real time or not. While this looks like a great solution (or start) for DX11 cards, it looks iffy, on the 360, as you still have AI to do
phosphor112 11 months ago
Not to be "that guy", but does anybody else think this doesn't look that impressive at all? Everything is rounded and balooney, its like a low-detail Pixar movie. And devs have known for years now that lighting, particle effects, bump mapping, and pixel shading techniques can make for far better looking images than just bumping up the polycount.
CyberAkumaZero 11 months ago
Those rocks look pretty solid.
( No pun intended )
Kanuuna 11 months ago
this looks like toy story
Neif117 11 months ago
big fucking deal....ive seen better Crysis graphics mods than this. I wont be surprised if someone recreates this in CryEngine 2 and its going to look ten times better.
xStalkerxx 11 months ago
looks as good as ps2 games, when will they catch up with ps3
TurkishHegemony 11 months ago
@TheRobin1232 Oh, i didn't know that...
whydoyouask123 11 months ago
This looks awesome, better than Gran Turismo 5 ;) Which was a bit of a disappointment if you arsk me!
Austerers 11 months ago
looks as good as FABLE games... BTW, FABLE IS GAY !
paroleirparole 11 months ago
those trees dont have 10,000 leaves.
turgore 11 months ago
No aliasing it seems. Very nice! You've managed to hold off the 720 for another year, haven't you? :D
BoiledNotScrambled 11 months ago
Very nice and on an xbox 360. is this going to be implemented into any upcoming games or no details as of yet. and what about a PC version?
Windowsvista7Helper 11 months ago
hmmm
dosen't look that awesome ...
DarkLion1989 11 months ago
Hm, the objects are low-poly and no tesselation, only normal maps.
Clarensee 11 months ago
Seriously, I dont think Xbox 360 can able to handle this graphics with stable frame rate with high quality with equal saturation and lighting.. Because I believe this kind of magnificent visual graphics requires higher Processor+Ram, I think Quad core will be good for this, But too bad as we all know already, Xbox has 3 symmetrical cores which is outdated already, so I doubt that this graphics is only for 360 exclusively.... I'm sure that this kind of graphics, is for next generation consoles
joseph971 11 months ago
@joseph971 That would make sense, but mega-texturing seems to be made by Lionhead, a group that does games mainly for Microsoft's Xbox and WIndows OS. Unless They are allowed to sell the technology it may be exclusive to Microsoft...or maybe just Lionhead. Not to mention this is used in the Milo & Kate tech Demo by Lionhead.
whydoyouask123 11 months ago
Sorry, This is supposed to be the next Gen of Graphics ?? Haha, Games looked shit loads better than this years ago !!
lordjamito007 11 months ago
@lordjamito007 No one said this was next-gen graphics, only you said that.
And if you are going to say something to start trolling, why don't you actually use examples...unless you are to dumb to find any. Thanks for sharing you two-sense worth of nothing, i'm sure your brain must be hurting right now.
whydoyouask123 11 months ago
@whydoyouask123 N4G Said that it was New Graphics Technology, That is how I came to this video. My argument is that this video is far from impressive because games have looked this good for years now. Take for example a game like Warhawk. No doubt you havnt played it because it's a relatively small game, however it was released by in 2007 and easily matches this video. If that doesn't grasp you, all I have to mention is the word Crysis and I'm sure you'll be getting the point. That to is from 07
lordjamito007 11 months ago
@lordjamito007 Of course it's pretty old. It's always PC>consoles. You just can't compete against a PC because of the constant advancements in tech. :p
aopdjasldksa 11 months ago
@lordjamito007 Dude i think that you dont know what are you talking about :] .
hydzior 11 months ago
@hydzior I'd Say I do. I came to this page through a news site that told me This showcased an advancement in graphics technology, and I have stated that it is not impressive. For an Xbox 360, yeah sure it looks good, but it reminds me of Project Milo which was scrapped, in fact im pretty sure it's just a revamped version of that engine. I'm not saying the graphics are not impressive, I think they looks Amazing ! But for something that's supposed to be 'Future Tech' I expected a little more.
lordjamito007 11 months ago
@lordjamito007 The technology is all about the development workflow-pipeline, which is very impressive. If you don't know anything about the game-art creation process, then this tech will be meaningless to you...
PhilMorton 11 months ago
Thisdemo looks exactly like on Little Big Planet, there's nothing new to this sh!t, we already saw this magnificent type of graphics on the ps3. So Xbots can able to enjoy this kind of effects+visual after 6 years of 360 in the market. LOL
joseph971 11 months ago
So why exactly don't we see this level of graphics in recent Xbox 360 games?
Clarensee 11 months ago
@Clarensee it's new technology, that's only just been announced. New games will no doubt start to adopt this technology and amazing things will happen, the technology will likely be licenced to games developed on the PS3 and PC too as it's not limited to just xbox hardware - sorry fanboys you'll have to find something else to bicker about!
luttman23 11 months ago
Could you tell me what the three RTs at 1:07 represent? misses/?/real-mem-texture?
Interesting approach on first look. I hope to see it used (instead of shelved like the somewhat similar "The Room" demo) in an actual game / or see how actual collab-work is done in there. But what are the odds... but, keep it up!
sirlantis 11 months ago