I'm skeptical that YT will make changes at least until it hurts. Hurts them I mean, and here's an idea. Everyone who believes there should be a change should create a few new accounts so as not to use their channel for the proposed action. Once logged in with the new fake account you flag every YT partner channel, yes the ones they make more money from. Once the tidal wave or tsunami of flags hits them they will have to realize that their system does not work. Time to take action, enough words
An alternative plan is to create two sock accounts. One on which you upload a good bit of content, and another from which you file false DMCAs. And here's the good bit: a DMCA is a legal process, so they cannot ignore it. But instead of sending it through their automated system, send it BY POST so humans have to deal with it.
Now imagine a few hundred people doing that simultaneously.
Innocents always get hurt in wars, aren't we all innocent? The problem with your suggestion is most people that care and could help have no idea what a sock account is or how to file a DMCA how about making a video explaining the step by step process for dumies? For the masses to take action it has to be as easy as walking in the streets to show support. Otherwise only the YT elite rebels will speak out and that's not enough.
LOL. I can confirm that there has indeed been at least one XD and [blush].
I thought that the fact that Dr. Seuss has been dead for a long time means that his work is freely available. I posted a couple of videos reading out his material and showing images from his books. Upon which I got a completely legitimate DMCA claim from Dr. Seuss Enterprises. Mea culpa.
Without youtube hiring lots of people, what can they do to prevent this from happening? Just about everything i can think of is easilty abusable but i am pretty stupid so i probably missed something.
Maybe they could do something like ebays vero (verified rights owner) program. You have to register more details before you can start removing stuff. Although this still gets abused every so often.
Exactly. Implementing a few changes that make anonymous DMCAs impossible and that make flags traceable to the originator would NOT be technically impossible. It may not cure the problem completely, but it sure would make it manageable.
Getting youtube to suspend false dmca should be the goal. Putting pressure on youtube is the only way to get them to act. The only way to put pressure on youtube is thru their wallet. Their goal is to make money. They are a business. Companies take notice when they stop making money. You are not youtube's customers. You are youtube workers. Youtube's customers are the companies who pay for ads on your videos. Holding a video strike is the only way Youtube will pay attention to it's workers.
Follow the money. Youtube makes money by putting ads on your videos. Refusing to post videos is the only way to get their attention. They don't care about your petitions or rants, as long as you keep making videos so they can make a dollar off of you. Even if your account gets closed, they know you'll just repost your videos and make more, so they don't care if you get false dmca or false flag. A video boycott is the only way to get youtubes attention.
I think based on the concept of free speech and innocent until proven guilty, YT has a responsibility to either a. Not take down videos unless the person complaining has ALREADY gone through the legal process and a court has ordered them to, or b. Take on both the power to take down videos AND the responsibility to use a transparent review process
Not to blow a hole in this court case deal. But this is a world wide website. With that how do people think they can get a fair day in court or even file a case if your not even in the same country? I would think your better off putting this energy into copyright registration and setting up a system to file registration for peoples videos. Without this you dont stand a chance in a court case. No it wont be cheap to set up at first. Then again billboards are not free.
This video is actually not about taking a court case. Having said that: if you can be expected to submit to U.S. law when you post material on a U.S. web site then you have every right in the world to have your grievance heard in a U.S. court.
I understand it's not about taking a case. But, in the end legal language is the only one YT understands. I am not putting it down but only saying how I feel. The billboard will get your message out there. But I feel it's a message that will fly over the heads of most that see it. I agree that it's not a fair system and it need's to be changed. IMO setting up a legal fund would get far better results as far as lasting change. Yes I signed the petition and wish you luck in this.
I'm definitely on for setting up a legal fund, but I would imagine that that would come into its own helping people with limited funds taking action against other people who file false DMCAs, and I wouldn't expect many people to have much success trying to take action against YouTube itself.
How about find an attorney based near YT HQ thats willing to take on a case. But just get it set-up for now where people who have been shafted can pay a simple file fee. Then once the number of cases filed get's high enough it can be filed as one class action case. I know it would take time to happen and most want things now. But it's one way to hit back on YT hard and wake them up. Only down side is the time it would take. But atleast ppl would have a common place to take the fight.
stagism, I am sure it can be done. I think more to the point here is just how much money a person would need to part with to take this action. Then all that on a gamble that it's not some broke ass welfare bum or 14 year old kid that cant even be held accountable for these actions. It's just better to go after the broken system then the person. If it means that much it would be cheaper to buy a plane ticket and dish out an azz whipping. Plus that would make you feel better faster.
That's why i would suggest setting up a funding account which the Atheist community can contribute to(and which can be used for legal costs).
Remember:
It's not necessarily about money, if you can create sufficient fear in your enemies you may not have to fight. One action may be enough to deter a vast majority of false DMCA's.
Also, the threat of a prison sentence for non-payment and a criminal record might be enough to make the welfare cases and teenagers take notice.
I dont feel the true issue here is the DMCA it's self. The issue is the process in that without valid review your account is removed just because of people making false claims. That part can be fixed easy. Then they should put the accounts that files the false DMCA's under suspension once the review shows thats the case. Sorry, But talking a prison sentence or even fines is just silly.
Suspending the offending account would be a "token" effort to a systemic and widespread problem.
These DMCA's are mostly coming from sock accounts or from people with nothing left to loose. A vast network of sock accounts can overcome any mass suspension effort on behalf of YouTube.
Also, with the wide availability of web IP assignment software(like hidebehind) IP bans would also be essentially useless.
im going to follow your instructions.....and count me IN whatever you decide to do! No better charity then giving it to the cause of freedom of speech! if you need anything, holler :)
I am #16....I shared your video, but we both know it only goes to 100 people on my friends list....so Ima make a video pointing out THIS video and your petition. As many as we can get to sign this the better! I hope this spreads like wild fire!
People will need to have faith in the individuals who will take charge of the resources of the 'charity' or 'trust' or whatever.. people of the calibre of Thunderf00t et al, however there is always a reluctance to handle other poeple's money as there is the risk it will get ugly, no matter how transparent the processes are. I'd like to see DPRjones involved. I'm tentatively happy to contribute publicity and in a small way, financially. Regards, AA.
Exactly. I think that's why it's important to get this organised through a tried and trusted organisation. I'm not sure whether "justgiving" or "firstgiving" qualify as such, but someplace that have clear checks and balances in place that ensure the money goes where the people setting up the fund raiser say it will.
Well, of course, we don't dare to profit from this, but maybe we can still hit them in the pocket book. Maybe the technically-minded among us can find a few ways to make YTs main competitor more competitive; maybe even enough to overtake them.
So? A friend invites you to come play a few games at his house. When you get there he doesn't play fair. Hey, it's his house, he can do whatever he pleases. But outside his house you can tell anybody who'd listen that your friend is a bit of a cunt.
the simplest idea is to start a campaign where if someone flags or files a DMCA on a video, thier user name would have to be shown...this way the victim at least knows his accuser and can take it from there.
yes, but if you know for a fact who did it you could at least fight back with a video and bring shame to that idiot...not knowing just makes us mad at the wrong people perhaps...
Remember that the DMCA is a legal process. The fact that YouTube's process allows someone to post one anonymously (by hiding behind a unverifiable e-mail address) is obviously flawed.
Yup. You may remember that the first step taken in Thunderf00t's action against PCS was that someone managed to find out PCS' real name and address. At that point he had him by the short 'n curlies.
This is the internetz. Getting justice against cunts on here is very difficult. Not sure what I can do to help as my only skill is trolling. If you can give me an idea how to help I'm at your service. Want to see this false flagging prick get owned in the face.
google no longer adhears to there mantra: "don't be evil", or whatever it was. as they explore their options for a youtube subscription service for legit copywrited content, and foresee the asociated profits. we will understand ourselves to be of a lesser priority. and this sounds defeatest, it is only another begining, and when their loss is greater than ours, the fix will occure
YT partners makes money on YT. C666 is a partner. He loses money with the closure of his channel. Money that helps pay the rent and put food on his table.
i think that civil damages could be enforced through the court system. say someone files a false dmca claim against one of your videos AND you are getting payed from advertisements on that video. the person than is legally responsible for paying any money damages caused. it is likely that they can also be sued for punative suits. i think that it would be nice if one of these guys got sued for about $10,000. it would make them think twice before doing it again.
i think the first thing is a clearly identified grievance. We can not expect YT to change the DMCA practice as it is completely out of their hands. Are we talking about the flagging process? What is the evidence that there is no recourse for someone flagged for TOS inappropriately? What is the scope of the problem? If we eliminate the DMCA issues, how many cases are we talking about?
They can't change the DMCA practice but what they CAN do is stop claimants from being able to hide in anonymity. And yes, the flagging. That damn flagging.
Don't know how many, but Nykytyne2 is a recent case. Cozmikzen in the past. Several.
/user/tppandyou you tell me if its a scam. It's fucked up and there aint no justice on the tubes. Should we not dispense with trying to talk to youtube and try google?
Check out the Electronic Frontier Foundation, if they don't get involved personally they should at least be able to give some good advices on how to deal with this
I think thats possible, im guessing most organisations that offer financial aid will require you to be registered group of some kind. I think its a good idea, but i think its a lot of work to get it started and requires about £1000 to apply. I would see if you can get a large group of people interested before going down that route including several large channel youtubers to rally support and raise some startup funds..dpr jones is a lawyer isnt he? I would guess he would know how to do it all
Well, in the end we are playing in YT's back yard, and they're not stopping us from expressing our opinion elsewhere. Still, the fact that YT is so big and "elsewhere" is so small might carry some weight. I don't know.
great work pino. real action is needed. i seem to remember richard thinking about organising a protest at the google offices in london a while back but it petered out.. wonder if that might reappear some time? ; )
well you'd hope that we would remain civil. i was at a protest for something a good deal more emotive and serious than our little problem (as shitty as it is) recently and the people there remained perfectly civil.
I already tried the gates foundation they said no about two weeks ago
I figure get 200 youtubers on the exact same day to send emails to the bbc 24 news desk about the issue.... make it seem like some huge deal is going on when they get hit by a ton of emails all on one issue
"while we appreciate how important your request is, unfortunately, the foundation will be unable to provide assistance. In keeping with its charter, the foundation does not accept requests from individuals. The foundation supports nonprofit organizations"
I just had a thought, everybody in Canada go to a "Speakers Corner" video booth, pay your loonie and speak your mind, it might make it on the TV or someone inside viewing the video will take notice.
Shwanerd, you know where it is at the Much Music studios, wear your anon mask if you need too, take your friends....CHARGE!!!!!!!!!!!!
ONLY if you tell them that you will be suing the claimant, that you expect them to collect verifiable contact details from claimant, and then after having filed your counter claim with those additions you subpoena them for the information and they are unable to give it to you due to a failure to collect it in the first place. If you don't do that, they are not obliged to assume that YOU will be suing, so they can, sadly, plead ignorance.
it is possible to sue YT who in turn have to sue the one who filed the DMCA. Negligence is not an excuse in America, in fact it's common practice. The one providing the service has o also provide certain safe guards. The problem is no one has tried to sue YT on proper grounds, people like Immendham have given the court process against Google a bad name
Here lt me break it down. There is provision in the US that a company has to protect the interest of it's customers with "Fair practice".
YT therefore can be sued under this auspice for damages to said customer, this goes both ways. YT then in turn has to sue the original claimant for damages obtained through said action against them. There are legal cases currently in place against YT under this legislation.
Has anyone considered approaching the Richard Dawkins Foundation? maybe???
I might be able to raise a few bucks if I stand out on a strret corner on friday or saturday night otherwise I am strapped right now.
A high profile face like Penn Gillette or Tommy Chong is needed, they are well known enough to get face time on TV news or programs like Bill Maher????
I wish I was rich, I'd pay for a bunch of billboards myself!!!!!!!
the most obvious approach would be the one commonly used by activists:
set up a meeting to discuss and organize a reallife protest, then try to mobilize, then hope that people show up, then do a meeting after the protest planning the next protest and maybe another meeting to set up an organisation, of which representatives will then go to symposiums and panel discussions and other meetings and organize more protests. billboards might be somewhere in the public outreach mix eventually ;)
The DMCA made was against property owned by Richard which amazes me. Had they checked their facts and learned that the DVD and the Comedy skit is Richards property they'd have cleared this up instantly.
Like it or not, it's not YT's job to check whether a DMCA claim is legit. That is for the claimant and the targeted YouTuber to work out between them, if necessary in court.
All we COULD possibly hold YT legally responsible for is failure to facilitate the YouTuber's legal action against a perjurous claimant, but even then, I can't repeat it often enough, you MUST accompany your counter by a clear statement of intent to sue to YT and a demand that they ensure they collect the info required.
Exactly. I think the way to approach this is by a lot of "little" people doing a lot of "little" things in their "little" local communities to bring attention to this.
And maybe this will take legs to the point where somebody a bit less apathetic than Miguel Helft will take note of it.
Maybe it's time to have a fund raiser so that someone like Richard can take it all the way. Money always seems to be the number one issue keeping people from holding youtube to the fire.
You need to get an appearance on the Colbert Report! He causes all kinds of problems.
More seriously: The EFF, as suggested, isn't a bad place to start.
If you're aiming to spend money, though, buying an advert ON YOUTUBE for reforming YouTube policy is totally worth trying. I mean, talk about targeted demographics...
Might also be worth going to their parent company, Google, with complaints as a group. Letter writing campaign, etc.
Nope. I'm done with doing anything ON youtube about this particular issue (only about that issue though. I'm not going to leave YouTube or anything like that!).
I sent dozens of e-mails to editor [at] here and never got a satisfactory response.
I do not know what billboards cost but I expect they are not cheap. I am not sure how much money we could assemble from Y.T. users. I would look at the charity blogtv event to get an idea of the scope of the cash we could collect.
Goggle loves to promote the "we are the good guys" thing; that could be helpful to us. They don't need spotlights on them.
Exactly. We were thinking of running a charity drive along the same lines as the Atheist Bus campaign. But what we need is a LOT of people who are willing to spread the news far and wide and by many different means. Hang posters in your local supermarket if you must. Contact your local paper. ANYTHING.
We have yet to decide on the fund raising mechanism though so wait until we announce that.
I can't stand (backstabbers) grrrrrrr!!!. piss ants would be another good word for them!!. I believe if a person has a real problem with someone that they should be man enough to stand and be recognized, and not do things behind someone's back. 5*****
Legally our best bet is to set ourselves up as a tax exempt religious organization, and to claim that our actions and goals are directly in accordance with the will of God Almighty. Then we should pray.
Seriously though. Let's go public, outside the scope of this site, and get right in their face. Until some fucker SOMEWHERE in that organisation starts smelling the coffee.
Through out the day I've been thinking about this topic. I agree that getting outside of YT is necessary, but we really need to get terribly lucky, or hook up with some organization(s) that have some clout and or muscle. There's nothing legally that can be done. What can be done would have to be in the area of publicity and public relations. I need to think about it some more, because at the moment, praying still seems to be the action which could lead the most beneficial outcome. Actually...
But I don't want this to turn into an "Atheist" thing. Yeah, of course, I became aware of it because my atheist friends in the little atheist corner in which I tend to play here in YouTube seem to have been disproportionally affected by this, but this is an issue that may affect everybody who does anything "controversial" here.
It may effect others, but if it doesn't directly and presently do so, that may be an issue of relatively small consequence. As far as I'm concerned whether or not it is an "atheist thing" should primarily be an issue of expedience. In other words, it should be based on tactical and strategic calculus, rather than moral principles.
Total agreement! There needs to be more due process implemented to prevent false DMCA's and put the focus on actual cases where DMCA's are legitimate.
All we can ask YT to do is be a bit more diligent in their processing of claims and to demand something more verifiable than an e-mail address from the claimant, but ask is all we can. We can copperfasten it, as I explained, through how we go about counter-claiming, but that's about it.
The thing about this is that (IMO) y.t. grossly overestimates their exposure to liability brought about by standing for the customer a bit more. After all what large value DMCA suite would ever come from an entity that is not willing to clearly identify itself at round 1.
If he files counter suit (if he can afford it) then he can also sue the person who filed the false DMCAs for compensation to cover lost earnings. There is also, with a good lawyer, a possibility to get a judge to chastise gootube itself for failing in customer service.
That's why I keep repeating the mantra: counter claim by post. Demand that the counter claim be forwarded by registered mail to a verifiable address. Inform YT that you WILL seek redress from claimant. Do this so that if - IF - YT in the future then fails to give you information about the claimant when you pursue that course of action you can show how you made them aware of your intent WELL in advance, how you advised them what to do and how their failure can only be construed as obstruction.
It's never "certain", but it surely makes it very much in their interest to comply with a fairly simple request that does not require them to put in an even minor amount of effort or any money, plus if push comes to shove and someone DOES sue them after them so blatantly disregarding a very reasonable request and as a result not being able to provide the information necessary to allow someone to pursue a court case, I cannot see how they can possibly argue their way out of it in court. (more)
Even if they COULD win such a case, imagine the storm of negative publicity if somebody sues them on the basis of "YouTube made it impossible for me to take legal action against somebody who committed perjury against me".
I'm banking on their selfishness. It's very much in their self interest to comply with such a minor AND reasonable request that doesn't cost them anything but may save them a lot of potential legal rigmarole. Even a huge corportation is not immune to that argument.
That is what I would have guessed and I fully agree it should be done to further a possible suite if no actions are forthcoming. Overall I see this as a 2 fork battle:
1. Shame YT into doing better for its users
2. Support legal actions against perpetrators
A network of some kind of legal proxies might be able to cross national borders (no idea what I am talking about here).
I'm skeptical that YT will make changes at least until it hurts. Hurts them I mean, and here's an idea. Everyone who believes there should be a change should create a few new accounts so as not to use their channel for the proposed action. Once logged in with the new fake account you flag every YT partner channel, yes the ones they make more money from. Once the tidal wave or tsunami of flags hits them they will have to realize that their system does not work. Time to take action, enough words
josealonsoleon 2 years ago
Except it hurts innocent people.
An alternative plan is to create two sock accounts. One on which you upload a good bit of content, and another from which you file false DMCAs. And here's the good bit: a DMCA is a legal process, so they cannot ignore it. But instead of sending it through their automated system, send it BY POST so humans have to deal with it.
Now imagine a few hundred people doing that simultaneously.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Innocents always get hurt in wars, aren't we all innocent? The problem with your suggestion is most people that care and could help have no idea what a sock account is or how to file a DMCA how about making a video explaining the step by step process for dumies? For the masses to take action it has to be as easy as walking in the streets to show support. Otherwise only the YT elite rebels will speak out and that's not enough.
josealonsoleon 2 years ago
Indeed, but I'm looking into more constructive ways. I've just issued a press release on censortube [dot] eu
rozeboosje 2 years ago
i wonder how many legitimate claims have been made
i know there are some from the larger companies, usually films/music/tv, but apart frm that, has there ever been a legit claim?
DreadsideNubune 2 years ago
LOL. I can confirm that there has indeed been at least one XD and [blush].
I thought that the fact that Dr. Seuss has been dead for a long time means that his work is freely available. I posted a couple of videos reading out his material and showing images from his books. Upon which I got a completely legitimate DMCA claim from Dr. Seuss Enterprises. Mea culpa.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Did they remove the video instantly and put a violation on your account, or did you get a chance to delete the video first?
DreadsideNubune 2 years ago
Removing the video doesn't remove the strike if the DMCA is valid.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Without youtube hiring lots of people, what can they do to prevent this from happening? Just about everything i can think of is easilty abusable but i am pretty stupid so i probably missed something.
Maybe they could do something like ebays vero (verified rights owner) program. You have to register more details before you can start removing stuff. Although this still gets abused every so often.
DreadsideNubune 2 years ago
Exactly. Implementing a few changes that make anonymous DMCAs impossible and that make flags traceable to the originator would NOT be technically impossible. It may not cure the problem completely, but it sure would make it manageable.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Getting youtube to suspend false dmca should be the goal. Putting pressure on youtube is the only way to get them to act. The only way to put pressure on youtube is thru their wallet. Their goal is to make money. They are a business. Companies take notice when they stop making money. You are not youtube's customers. You are youtube workers. Youtube's customers are the companies who pay for ads on your videos. Holding a video strike is the only way Youtube will pay attention to it's workers.
Marena73 2 years ago
There's too much apathy to make that work, and YouTube doesn't even notice. It's been tried on at least two previous occasions.
Exactly: they are a business. And businesses are VERY sensitive to negative publicity.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Flag all videos on YT and they will have to give up the automated process - or there will be no videos left..
But maybe that's too radical?
pickupthegun 2 years ago
I'm afraid so. We would prefer our actions to be legally AND morally defensible.
Not that your suggestion is not understandable.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Follow the money. Youtube makes money by putting ads on your videos. Refusing to post videos is the only way to get their attention. They don't care about your petitions or rants, as long as you keep making videos so they can make a dollar off of you. Even if your account gets closed, they know you'll just repost your videos and make more, so they don't care if you get false dmca or false flag. A video boycott is the only way to get youtubes attention.
Marena73 2 years ago
Video boycotts have been tried and failed.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
signed
CaMaster 2 years ago
Thank you!
rozeboosje 2 years ago
No Problem. Thank you for starting the petition.
CaMaster 2 years ago
Absolutely. You have had more than your fair share of this BS being thrown at you
rozeboosje 2 years ago
320 and going. :-) ^^)
panthera50 2 years ago
twice that now
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I think based on the concept of free speech and innocent until proven guilty, YT has a responsibility to either a. Not take down videos unless the person complaining has ALREADY gone through the legal process and a court has ordered them to, or b. Take on both the power to take down videos AND the responsibility to use a transparent review process
Capitalocracy 2 years ago
That would be great
rozeboosje 2 years ago
#198
~:planet
FacedPalmedPlanet 2 years ago
We broke through the 200 mark already. I'm in awe.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
signed :)
001just4fun 2 years ago
Much appreciated
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I didn't realize there was a petition, I guess I didn't read your vid description, sorry.
I'm signed know :-O
AbdultheImpailler 2 years ago
we only created it this morning :-)
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I think it would be fair if:
1) you flag a video, your site name and info is emailed to the person affected by the flagging
2) you false flag a video, your channel gets shut down
3) you are guilty of a flag charge by other channels...thrice and you are out
Go to the FCC about it and explain your "documented" wishes using a copyright attorney...and you may get results.
MaxCandor 2 years ago
Yes, indeed. False flagging and false DMCAing should carry stiff YT penalties. Sadly, of course, people DO use sock accounts to do such things.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
#49
6stringbadger 2 years ago
wonderful
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Signed the petition. Thanks so much for your efforts.
ChrmdLabradorite 2 years ago
It's only startiing
rozeboosje 2 years ago
w00t
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Not to blow a hole in this court case deal. But this is a world wide website. With that how do people think they can get a fair day in court or even file a case if your not even in the same country? I would think your better off putting this energy into copyright registration and setting up a system to file registration for peoples videos. Without this you dont stand a chance in a court case. No it wont be cheap to set up at first. Then again billboards are not free.
RESET1776 2 years ago
This video is actually not about taking a court case. Having said that: if you can be expected to submit to U.S. law when you post material on a U.S. web site then you have every right in the world to have your grievance heard in a U.S. court.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I understand it's not about taking a case. But, in the end legal language is the only one YT understands. I am not putting it down but only saying how I feel. The billboard will get your message out there. But I feel it's a message that will fly over the heads of most that see it. I agree that it's not a fair system and it need's to be changed. IMO setting up a legal fund would get far better results as far as lasting change. Yes I signed the petition and wish you luck in this.
RESET1776 2 years ago
I'm definitely on for setting up a legal fund, but I would imagine that that would come into its own helping people with limited funds taking action against other people who file false DMCAs, and I wouldn't expect many people to have much success trying to take action against YouTube itself.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
How about find an attorney based near YT HQ thats willing to take on a case. But just get it set-up for now where people who have been shafted can pay a simple file fee. Then once the number of cases filed get's high enough it can be filed as one class action case. I know it would take time to happen and most want things now. But it's one way to hit back on YT hard and wake them up. Only down side is the time it would take. But atleast ppl would have a common place to take the fight.
RESET1776 2 years ago
RESET1776:
I believe there is a stipulation under international law that allows someone from the same country as the accused to sue on behalf of the victim.
stagism 2 years ago
stagism, I am sure it can be done. I think more to the point here is just how much money a person would need to part with to take this action. Then all that on a gamble that it's not some broke ass welfare bum or 14 year old kid that cant even be held accountable for these actions. It's just better to go after the broken system then the person. If it means that much it would be cheaper to buy a plane ticket and dish out an azz whipping. Plus that would make you feel better faster.
RESET1776 2 years ago
That's why i would suggest setting up a funding account which the Atheist community can contribute to(and which can be used for legal costs).
Remember:
It's not necessarily about money, if you can create sufficient fear in your enemies you may not have to fight. One action may be enough to deter a vast majority of false DMCA's.
Also, the threat of a prison sentence for non-payment and a criminal record might be enough to make the welfare cases and teenagers take notice.
stagism 2 years ago
Continued:
The system cannot be fixed: eliminating or delaying the DMCA request would open YouTube up to legal action.
stagism 2 years ago
I dont feel the true issue here is the DMCA it's self. The issue is the process in that without valid review your account is removed just because of people making false claims. That part can be fixed easy. Then they should put the accounts that files the false DMCA's under suspension once the review shows thats the case. Sorry, But talking a prison sentence or even fines is just silly.
RESET1776 2 years ago
Suspending the offending account would be a "token" effort to a systemic and widespread problem.
These DMCA's are mostly coming from sock accounts or from people with nothing left to loose. A vast network of sock accounts can overcome any mass suspension effort on behalf of YouTube.
Also, with the wide availability of web IP assignment software(like hidebehind) IP bans would also be essentially useless.
stagism 2 years ago
i adore you!
im going to follow your instructions.....and count me IN whatever you decide to do! No better charity then giving it to the cause of freedom of speech! if you need anything, holler :)
xoxoxox
jakluk4 2 years ago
favd and featured on both my channels :D
jaklukavenged 2 years ago
Thank you!
rozeboosje 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I got it on my channel too in my favorites.
CelticWarrior1971 2 years ago
Will do. Check out the petition in the side bar for starters.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I am #16....I shared your video, but we both know it only goes to 100 people on my friends list....so Ima make a video pointing out THIS video and your petition. As many as we can get to sign this the better! I hope this spreads like wild fire!
xoxox
jakluk4 2 years ago
People will need to have faith in the individuals who will take charge of the resources of the 'charity' or 'trust' or whatever.. people of the calibre of Thunderf00t et al, however there is always a reluctance to handle other poeple's money as there is the risk it will get ugly, no matter how transparent the processes are. I'd like to see DPRjones involved. I'm tentatively happy to contribute publicity and in a small way, financially. Regards, AA.
AtheistAussie 2 years ago
Exactly. I think that's why it's important to get this organised through a tried and trusted organisation. I'm not sure whether "justgiving" or "firstgiving" qualify as such, but someplace that have clear checks and balances in place that ensure the money goes where the people setting up the fund raiser say it will.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Well, of course, we don't dare to profit from this, but maybe we can still hit them in the pocket book. Maybe the technically-minded among us can find a few ways to make YTs main competitor more competitive; maybe even enough to overtake them.
lazyperfectionist1 2 years ago
I'd rather not move if I can avoid it.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Goddamn Roze, I never realized how popular you are.
When Roze puts something down, a whole army of muthafuckas are ready to pick that shit up.
*Is there anyway I could get you to autograph some shit for me? it's for my girlfriend, I swear to God.*
I'll tell ya what, I'm going to send an email to the ACLU, just to see if they even bother responding...
I'll keep you guys posted.
ogjimkenobi 2 years ago
ROFL. Thanks! [blush]
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Email sent.....
And now we play the waiting game.....
ogjimkenobi 2 years ago
email sent to where?
rozeboosje 2 years ago
The ACLU's department that deals with discrimination.
ogjimkenobi 2 years ago
ah. Sorry. I'm a bit slow today XD
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I'll let you know if they actually respond to it.
ogjimkenobi 2 years ago
So? A friend invites you to come play a few games at his house. When you get there he doesn't play fair. Hey, it's his house, he can do whatever he pleases. But outside his house you can tell anybody who'd listen that your friend is a bit of a cunt.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
the simplest idea is to start a campaign where if someone flags or files a DMCA on a video, thier user name would have to be shown...this way the victim at least knows his accuser and can take it from there.
stonedcommander 2 years ago
Yeah, but a sock account is so easily made
rozeboosje 2 years ago
yes, but if you know for a fact who did it you could at least fight back with a video and bring shame to that idiot...not knowing just makes us mad at the wrong people perhaps...
stonedcommander 2 years ago
Remember that the DMCA is a legal process. The fact that YouTube's process allows someone to post one anonymously (by hiding behind a unverifiable e-mail address) is obviously flawed.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
It didn't protect PCS.
lazyperfectionist1 2 years ago
Only because someone managed to track down PCS.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
This was when he DMCA'd TF?
lazyperfectionist1 2 years ago
Yup. You may remember that the first step taken in Thunderf00t's action against PCS was that someone managed to find out PCS' real name and address. At that point he had him by the short 'n curlies.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I'd financially s'port any activity making/pushing YT to reform their DMCA handling and/or nailing false DMCA'ers...
Paxmax 2 years ago
Yes
rozeboosje 2 years ago
This is the internetz. Getting justice against cunts on here is very difficult. Not sure what I can do to help as my only skill is trolling. If you can give me an idea how to help I'm at your service. Want to see this false flagging prick get owned in the face.
myjizzureye 2 years ago
I know justice is a pipe dream. But getting this issue into the public eye is another matter.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
google no longer adhears to there mantra: "don't be evil", or whatever it was. as they explore their options for a youtube subscription service for legit copywrited content, and foresee the asociated profits. we will understand ourselves to be of a lesser priority. and this sounds defeatest, it is only another begining, and when their loss is greater than ours, the fix will occure
funkskull 2 years ago
That's exactly why I'm suggesting we take this issue off this site.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
YT partners makes money on YT. C666 is a partner. He loses money with the closure of his channel. Money that helps pay the rent and put food on his table.
Vogter2100 2 years ago
have you looked into the ACLU? false dmca claims used to breach the first ammendment might be something that they would be willing to represent.
greycloud24 2 years ago
i think that civil damages could be enforced through the court system. say someone files a false dmca claim against one of your videos AND you are getting payed from advertisements on that video. the person than is legally responsible for paying any money damages caused. it is likely that they can also be sued for punative suits. i think that it would be nice if one of these guys got sued for about $10,000. it would make them think twice before doing it again.
greycloud24 2 years ago
Yes, but that is outside the scope of what this vid is about. But yeah. It would be great to see someone pay that price.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
i think the first thing is a clearly identified grievance. We can not expect YT to change the DMCA practice as it is completely out of their hands. Are we talking about the flagging process? What is the evidence that there is no recourse for someone flagged for TOS inappropriately? What is the scope of the problem? If we eliminate the DMCA issues, how many cases are we talking about?
heatherlynblue 2 years ago
They can't change the DMCA practice but what they CAN do is stop claimants from being able to hide in anonymity. And yes, the flagging. That damn flagging.
Don't know how many, but Nykytyne2 is a recent case. Cozmikzen in the past. Several.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I flagged a video for the first time 2 days ago for being a scam ( pyramid scheme ) It is still there. Fuck them.
grenangle 2 years ago
Yeah. And 28 seconds of "tickle porn" and boom.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
/user/tppandyou you tell me if its a scam. It's fucked up and there aint no justice on the tubes. Should we not dispense with trying to talk to youtube and try google?
grenangle 2 years ago
Of course it is
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Auction!
wimscheers 2 years ago
:-)
rozeboosje 2 years ago
YouTube will sometimes accept DMCA counter-notices sent through a third party who acts as a proxy and vouches for your identity.
wyrdness1 2 years ago 2
Interesting
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Good video... i love your giant sofa....
Elenkhos 2 years ago
:-)
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Check out the Electronic Frontier Foundation, if they don't get involved personally they should at least be able to give some good advices on how to deal with this
ADF203 2 years ago
Cheers
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I think thats possible, im guessing most organisations that offer financial aid will require you to be registered group of some kind. I think its a good idea, but i think its a lot of work to get it started and requires about £1000 to apply. I would see if you can get a large group of people interested before going down that route including several large channel youtubers to rally support and raise some startup funds..dpr jones is a lawyer isnt he? I would guess he would know how to do it all
MoreSciFiThanScience 2 years ago
Yes. It all costs money.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Has anyone thought about contacting the ACLU and seeing if they would be willing to get involved?
TheLiberalViewer is one of their lawyers, maybe he could be reached.
I mean, this is after a civil liberties issue is it not?
ogjimkenobi 2 years ago
Well, in the end we are playing in YT's back yard, and they're not stopping us from expressing our opinion elsewhere. Still, the fact that YT is so big and "elsewhere" is so small might carry some weight. I don't know.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
great work pino. real action is needed. i seem to remember richard thinking about organising a protest at the google offices in london a while back but it petered out.. wonder if that might reappear some time? ; )
oojamaflipper 2 years ago
Yup, and I'm a little weary of protests. What starts as a protest can so easily turn into a riot.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
well you'd hope that we would remain civil. i was at a protest for something a good deal more emotive and serious than our little problem (as shitty as it is) recently and the people there remained perfectly civil.
oojamaflipper 2 years ago
It's definitely an avenue worth exploring
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I already tried the gates foundation they said no about two weeks ago
I figure get 200 youtubers on the exact same day to send emails to the bbc 24 news desk about the issue.... make it seem like some huge deal is going on when they get hit by a ton of emails all on one issue
get this shit on tv
MoreSciFiThanScience 2 years ago
Why did the Gateses say no? Did they clarify?
rozeboosje 2 years ago
a short quote........
"while we appreciate how important your request is, unfortunately, the foundation will be unable to provide assistance. In keeping with its charter, the foundation does not accept requests from individuals. The foundation supports nonprofit organizations"
MoreSciFiThanScience 2 years ago
Let's create a nonprofit organization then.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I just had a thought, everybody in Canada go to a "Speakers Corner" video booth, pay your loonie and speak your mind, it might make it on the TV or someone inside viewing the video will take notice.
Shwanerd, you know where it is at the Much Music studios, wear your anon mask if you need too, take your friends....CHARGE!!!!!!!!!!!!
AbdultheImpailler 2 years ago
ROFL
rozeboosje 2 years ago
We can accuse them of Negligence pure and simple
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
ONLY if you tell them that you will be suing the claimant, that you expect them to collect verifiable contact details from claimant, and then after having filed your counter claim with those additions you subpoena them for the information and they are unable to give it to you due to a failure to collect it in the first place. If you don't do that, they are not obliged to assume that YOU will be suing, so they can, sadly, plead ignorance.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
@rozeboosje Would it were that simple
it is possible to sue YT who in turn have to sue the one who filed the DMCA. Negligence is not an excuse in America, in fact it's common practice. The one providing the service has o also provide certain safe guards. The problem is no one has tried to sue YT on proper grounds, people like Immendham have given the court process against Google a bad name
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Nope. YT don't have to sue. YOU do. The perjury was committed against you, not against YouTube.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
@rozeboosje No you don't understand
Here lt me break it down. There is provision in the US that a company has to protect the interest of it's customers with "Fair practice".
YT therefore can be sued under this auspice for damages to said customer, this goes both ways. YT then in turn has to sue the original claimant for damages obtained through said action against them. There are legal cases currently in place against YT under this legislation.
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Let's see how those pan out then. Would be nice if it worked.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
via the firstgiving and justgiving websites? create a charity or non for profit called "tube justice" maybe?
BespokeGroupUK 2 years ago
Yes. That's what I was thinking.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Has anyone considered approaching the Richard Dawkins Foundation? maybe???
I might be able to raise a few bucks if I stand out on a strret corner on friday or saturday night otherwise I am strapped right now.
A high profile face like Penn Gillette or Tommy Chong is needed, they are well known enough to get face time on TV news or programs like Bill Maher????
I wish I was rich, I'd pay for a bunch of billboards myself!!!!!!!
AbdultheImpailler 2 years ago
Good idea. How? Penn Gillette? Great! Where can I contact him? Who is Tommy Chong (pardon my ignorance)
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Tommy Chong....of Cheech & Chong fame, he has a YouTube channel as does Penn Gillette
AbdultheImpailler 2 years ago
Please send me their channels
rozeboosje 2 years ago
PM on it's way to you right now :-)
AbdultheImpailler 2 years ago
Report Youtube to the BBB? Or has someone already done that?
RtFusion 2 years ago
The what?
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Better Business Bureau
RtFusion 2 years ago
They already have an 'F' rating with the BBB. Wish I could post a link...
But I think complaints are forwarded, so do it anyway.
Smidge204 2 years ago
the most obvious approach would be the one commonly used by activists:
set up a meeting to discuss and organize a reallife protest, then try to mobilize, then hope that people show up, then do a meeting after the protest planning the next protest and maybe another meeting to set up an organisation, of which representatives will then go to symposiums and panel discussions and other meetings and organize more protests. billboards might be somewhere in the public outreach mix eventually ;)
kurtilein3 2 years ago
Billboards are more legit. A protest can so easily escalate into a riot, and then we would have truly shot ourselves in the foot.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
The DMCA made was against property owned by Richard which amazes me. Had they checked their facts and learned that the DVD and the Comedy skit is Richards property they'd have cleared this up instantly.
YT should be sued for not doing it's job
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Like it or not, it's not YT's job to check whether a DMCA claim is legit. That is for the claimant and the targeted YouTuber to work out between them, if necessary in court.
All we COULD possibly hold YT legally responsible for is failure to facilitate the YouTuber's legal action against a perjurous claimant, but even then, I can't repeat it often enough, you MUST accompany your counter by a clear statement of intent to sue to YT and a demand that they ensure they collect the info required.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
*Suddenly bursts into song*
I want to break free! I want to break free! I want to break free from the interwebz and the.. keee-board. I want to break free!
rockerwere 2 years ago
Exactly. I think the way to approach this is by a lot of "little" people doing a lot of "little" things in their "little" local communities to bring attention to this.
And maybe this will take legs to the point where somebody a bit less apathetic than Miguel Helft will take note of it.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Maybe it's time to have a fund raiser so that someone like Richard can take it all the way. Money always seems to be the number one issue keeping people from holding youtube to the fire.
onlywhenprovoked 2 years ago
Yes indeed. We're thinking of using JustGiving or the US equivalent - like the Atheist Bus campaign did.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
You need to get an appearance on the Colbert Report! He causes all kinds of problems.
More seriously: The EFF, as suggested, isn't a bad place to start.
If you're aiming to spend money, though, buying an advert ON YOUTUBE for reforming YouTube policy is totally worth trying. I mean, talk about targeted demographics...
Might also be worth going to their parent company, Google, with complaints as a group. Letter writing campaign, etc.
Smidge204 2 years ago
Nope. I'm done with doing anything ON youtube about this particular issue (only about that issue though. I'm not going to leave YouTube or anything like that!).
I sent dozens of e-mails to editor [at] here and never got a satisfactory response.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I do not know what billboards cost but I expect they are not cheap. I am not sure how much money we could assemble from Y.T. users. I would look at the charity blogtv event to get an idea of the scope of the cash we could collect.
Goggle loves to promote the "we are the good guys" thing; that could be helpful to us. They don't need spotlights on them.
prodigyat9 2 years ago
Exactly. We were thinking of running a charity drive along the same lines as the Atheist Bus campaign. But what we need is a LOT of people who are willing to spread the news far and wide and by many different means. Hang posters in your local supermarket if you must. Contact your local paper. ANYTHING.
We have yet to decide on the fund raising mechanism though so wait until we announce that.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I can't stand (backstabbers) grrrrrrr!!!. piss ants would be another good word for them!!. I believe if a person has a real problem with someone that they should be man enough to stand and be recognized, and not do things behind someone's back. 5*****
NCLUSA 2 years ago 3
Absolutely! Thanks
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Legally our best bet is to set ourselves up as a tax exempt religious organization, and to claim that our actions and goals are directly in accordance with the will of God Almighty. Then we should pray.
premed2 2 years ago
ROFL
Seriously though. Let's go public, outside the scope of this site, and get right in their face. Until some fucker SOMEWHERE in that organisation starts smelling the coffee.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Through out the day I've been thinking about this topic. I agree that getting outside of YT is necessary, but we really need to get terribly lucky, or hook up with some organization(s) that have some clout and or muscle. There's nothing legally that can be done. What can be done would have to be in the area of publicity and public relations. I need to think about it some more, because at the moment, praying still seems to be the action which could lead the most beneficial outcome. Actually...
premed2 2 years ago
Actually thousands of atheists praying, might be a mighty interesting PR stunt. ;-D
premed2 2 years ago
ROFL
But I don't want this to turn into an "Atheist" thing. Yeah, of course, I became aware of it because my atheist friends in the little atheist corner in which I tend to play here in YouTube seem to have been disproportionally affected by this, but this is an issue that may affect everybody who does anything "controversial" here.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
It may effect others, but if it doesn't directly and presently do so, that may be an issue of relatively small consequence. As far as I'm concerned whether or not it is an "atheist thing" should primarily be an issue of expedience. In other words, it should be based on tactical and strategic calculus, rather than moral principles.
premed2 2 years ago
That's a fair point
rozeboosje 2 years ago
It might be good to work with the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation). Check them out, do some research.
wyrdness1 2 years ago 2
You're not the first to mention them to me. I'll definitely check them out.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
EFF is a good idea, wyrdness1
prodigyat9 2 years ago
I wish we could sue YT for making Dick lose some of his earnings by obviously false DMCA's!
Vogter2100 2 years ago 2
Total agreement! There needs to be more due process implemented to prevent false DMCA's and put the focus on actual cases where DMCA's are legitimate.
AtheosEthos 2 years ago
All we can ask YT to do is be a bit more diligent in their processing of claims and to demand something more verifiable than an e-mail address from the claimant, but ask is all we can. We can copperfasten it, as I explained, through how we go about counter-claiming, but that's about it.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
The thing about this is that (IMO) y.t. grossly overestimates their exposure to liability brought about by standing for the customer a bit more. After all what large value DMCA suite would ever come from an entity that is not willing to clearly identify itself at round 1.
prodigyat9 2 years ago
If he files counter suit (if he can afford it) then he can also sue the person who filed the false DMCAs for compensation to cover lost earnings. There is also, with a good lawyer, a possibility to get a judge to chastise gootube itself for failing in customer service.
bamboo4tameshigiri 2 years ago
I have said a number of times:
I would contribute money toward legal actions against these criminals. I am sure MANY other people feel the same way.
prodigyat9 2 years ago
That's why I keep repeating the mantra: counter claim by post. Demand that the counter claim be forwarded by registered mail to a verifiable address. Inform YT that you WILL seek redress from claimant. Do this so that if - IF - YT in the future then fails to give you information about the claimant when you pursue that course of action you can show how you made them aware of your intent WELL in advance, how you advised them what to do and how their failure can only be construed as obstruction.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
If you make the demand as you outlined how certain is it they will obey?
prodigyat9 2 years ago
It's never "certain", but it surely makes it very much in their interest to comply with a fairly simple request that does not require them to put in an even minor amount of effort or any money, plus if push comes to shove and someone DOES sue them after them so blatantly disregarding a very reasonable request and as a result not being able to provide the information necessary to allow someone to pursue a court case, I cannot see how they can possibly argue their way out of it in court. (more)
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Even if they COULD win such a case, imagine the storm of negative publicity if somebody sues them on the basis of "YouTube made it impossible for me to take legal action against somebody who committed perjury against me".
I'm banking on their selfishness. It's very much in their self interest to comply with such a minor AND reasonable request that doesn't cost them anything but may save them a lot of potential legal rigmarole. Even a huge corportation is not immune to that argument.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
That is what I would have guessed and I fully agree it should be done to further a possible suite if no actions are forthcoming. Overall I see this as a 2 fork battle:
1. Shame YT into doing better for its users
2. Support legal actions against perpetrators
A network of some kind of legal proxies might be able to cross national borders (no idea what I am talking about here).
prodigyat9 2 years ago
We can't. But Dick CAN sue the cunt who did it.
rozeboosje 2 years ago