Unpopular View #3 Part 1 - The Magic Solution

[kadaitcha72]

If only you we're our last water minister but we got no-water Holding.The desal plant is just another labor school halls rorting scheme on steroids.I think the figure after 30 years is approx $15bil it will cost us.What a shameful government & to think it took them 8 whole years to DECIDE what to do about the drought.LABOR made the drought worse by their inaction while letting in 50,000 extra migrants each year who they must have thought wouldn't use any water.

[ronnie4447]

Your argument is compelling - what is not clear is what happens to the water once it arrives in Melbourne. I presume you are arguing that this would be feed to our feeder reservoirs, such as Silvan, Maroondah for holding prior to injection into the reticulation system. The engineering cost for this activity, nor the power consumed should not be insurmountable. Your comments please.

[TophersUnpopularView]

G'day Ronnie, please see my reply after your comment on part 2. :o)

[LukeandDaisy]

This is unbranded advertising for Victoria's One Nation party

[TophersUnpopularView]

G'day LukeandDaisy.

Help me out here, what is the link between what I'm advocating here and the Victorian One Nation Party? (Do we even HAVE one nation in Victoria?)

[GoCo77]

@LukeandDaisy Well of course. One Nation people think about things that will benefit Australia. Mainstream parties only think about how to get power and hold it. As for the mainstream party policies, they are decided by offshore committees of technocrats, bankers and bureaucrats at the Council for Foreign Relations in New York, or the Trilateral Commission, or the Bilderbergers, or World Bank or IMF. Makes decision making a lot easier right?

[PeekyBooo]

#1 you can't technically charge for water as it's common. It's already owned by the people.

#2 You jump the main problem which is population. Why don't you address this? Are you scared to talk about racial issues and immigration?

#3 You don't address the problem that 2/3rds of Victoria's rain inception areas are covered with pine forests! Other words our water isn't getting to the catchments because they are being drunk by Pine Plantations.

#4 There is no crisis. The crisis is UN Agenda.

[TophersUnpopularView]

Thanks for the thoughts PeekyBooo.

#1 Thats correct, but you can charge a pro rata rate for the delivery infrastructure.

#2 The population will be a problem when we are actually running out of resources. Right now we have plenty, we just aren't using it well.

#3 2/3rds? Can you quote me a source on that?

#4 It's a free country, you can blame who you like. I prefer to deal with the people that I CAN influence rather than blame those I cant.

Cheers.

[PeekyBooo]

@TophersUnpopularView

#1 Maybe so, but you imply Tasmanians wil gain from the sale of water.

#2 Stupid to wait for a population problem then to deal with the potential problem now. We simply don't have the room for more immigrants, if we want our own children to prosper.

#3 Look on google earth

#4 You obviously know nothing about Agenda 21 and the agenda behind global-warming and the Fabians society, etc.

[TophersUnpopularView]

PeekyBooo, you have great enthusiasm, but in this game your sources need to be more reliable than 'looking at google earth'.

My research goes far beyond the narrow subjects that I have dealt with so far, but as mentioned above, I choose to deal with the people I CAN influence.

All the best.

[kcgan1959]

Congratulations on your performance. Which school of acting did you graduate from? $2.6 billion is suspicously low for that undersea pipe! Melbourne's water companies investigated this scheme and concluded that it would cost at least $10 billion, far more than the desal plant. Further, it would take around six years to build, much longer than the desal plant which was the most sensible option, all things considered.

[TophersUnpopularView]

Thanks for the compliment. I've had no training at all, believe it or not!

Check out the 'Langaled' pipe project, a 1,200km undersea pipe 1 meter in diameter, going to depths of more than 800 meters... cost? AUD$2.4 Billion.

These $10 bill and $7.5 bill figures that some people throw around are based on 'studies' which were designed to fail. For example, one 'study' was looking at taking water from the Great Lake (where there isn't any to spare) which is in CENTRAL tassie (rather than...

[TophersUnpopularView]

... near the coast), PUMPING it across Bass straight (at great expense, when with the right design they could let gravity do the work) and then PUMPING UP 450 meters into the Thomson Reservoir... No wonder it came in at such a rediculous cost!!!

These sorts of 'studies' are designed to fail.  They are a feeble attempt to discredit an idea without actually giving it a chance to work.

No government has PROPERLY looked at this proposal. They dismiss it because they don't WANT to believe it.

[hilectro]

Another thought I just had, after reading walkabout09's comment - If the government want to reduce total consumption without increasing the costs to the average consumer, then why not abolish standard charges and just charge a lot more for the actual water used.

At the moment, my household does not see a double price bill when we use double the water, as the standard fees are the main source of charges. - if people actually saw a much higher bill for over average usage, things would change.

[hilectro]

It's a good proposal, only problem I could see is that taking water out of the main river flow could result in tributaries at the end of the flow having reverse flow (seawater flowing back in the river), much like what's happening with the Murray river.

Another (partial) solution could be just to subsidise large water tanks for every household. That way people could water their gardens, flush their toilets and possibly do the washing without any of Melbourne's reserve being wasted.

[TophersUnpopularView]

G'day Hilectro, thanks for the comments.

You are right to be asking questions about the environmental impact that this pipeline could have, and obviously a full enviro-impact survey would need to be done before it could go ahead, but bear in mind that any damage this pipe would cause would need to be weighed up against the alternative and the amount of damage which the alternative would cause... which right now is the Wonthaggi Desal plant!

I suspect that this would look good in comparison.

[hilectro]

@TophersUnpopularView

Totally agree.

[TophersUnpopularView]

As for water tanks, I support them as a supplementary measure, however they present more challenges than most people think. In order to be much good they would need to be quite large (in the vicinity of 10,000 litres for a 3 bedroom flat / house) which presents the problem of finding the room for them. You then also have the issue of thousands of tiny pumps, the cost and environmental impact of which would need to be considered.

As you say, a possible PARTIAL solution, nothing more.

Cheers!

[cleveland393]

Very well said, Labours incomitenece is the reason we are short of water.

[sharperoy]

Topher mate you are spot on, run for parliament, you've got my vote... Cheers, Roy

[meso1971]

Hi Topher.  I just discovered you here. Instant fan. Love your style.

[1moreon]

What so you think a scummy liberal we're better than you because we were born in to money or ripped somebody off profit at all cost government would do a better job? You must be too young to remember what it was like for schools and teachers under a liberal governmernt.

[TophersUnpopularView]

Thanks for the comment 1moreon.

I don't see how you got that conclusion out of my video. I am simply looking at the existing governments existing policies, and calling them what they are. That is as far as I go.

I take it from your post that you are a 'dyed in the wool' Labor supporter. Thats fine. For myself I prefer to look at my options at each and every election and make up my own mind based on the parties merits in the here and now.

All the best,

'Topher.

[1moreon]

@TophersUnpopularView I came to that conclusion from the way you refeer to Labour like its a dirty word. It might sound better if you call them the goverment of the day.

I am not a Labour voter. In fact the thing I hate most about them is how Liberal they act.

Its great to see you make up your own mind . Its a bit hard for others to do that for you.

[TophersUnpopularView]

:o) To me the CURRENT Labor government ARE a dirty word.

I am not opposed to Labor governments in principle, only in this particular instance I believe they have been woeful and deserve the strongest of criticism and opposition until such time as they get their act together.

If they have to get voted out in order to wake them up then so be it. We will all be better off if we have at least two strong parties acting in the best interests of the people of Victoria. Right now we have none.

[1moreon]

@TophersUnpopularView Just a quick suggestion for a more appropriate name for your blogs, TossersUnpopularView

[TophersUnpopularView]

Lol, I'll keep that one in mind... :o)

[denSwagman]

I think we should also pipe water from Antarctica, it is melting away anyway. We could also pipe cold water to warm water areas and vice versa to change ocean currents so that El Nino could be mitigated. The differences in heat potential could also be used as a source of power, and could be used to make desert areas of the ocean flourish with life.

[TophersUnpopularView]

... view, that being that we need to SPREAD out water load over a larger area, therefore reducing the impact that we have on each individual river / eco system.

The negative impact on the Forth and Pieman rivers will be minimal compared to the POSITIVE impact on the Yarra, Thomson, and with a little bit more work, the Murray / Goulburn as well.

If the Greenies don't agree to large scale new sources of water then our current dams WILL kill the rivers they are on.

[thebrownnelson]

@TophersUnpopularView

Thanks for your reply.I agree we need to stop taking water from our rivers but creating a dependancy on another river system in another state is not thinking long term.what are your views on stormwater harvesting/use and small scale recycling solutions?You talk about the gigalitres of water flushing into the ocean in Tas, we also flush a couple hundred gigalitres of fresh water (albeit a little polluted)into Port Phillip every year.Smallscale is less exciting perhaps...

[thebrownnelson]

Just want to clarify that ENGOs have called for 100 litres of mains water delivery. A target of 100 litres would only restrict the water we are taking from river systems,resevoirs & dreaded desal plants. If each house has a tank & greywater system,100 Litres mains is very achieveable,sprinklers & water fights included.

Have you considered the ecological effects of introducing Tas water into our river systems?Us Melbournites should find solutions at home rather than taking more water from others.

[TophersUnpopularView]

Thanks for the input BrownNelson.

I have most certainly considered the ecological effects. Obviously a detailed Environmental Impact Survey would have to be completed, however I will sum up my underlying logic in a nutshell:

In Victoria the rivers that we rely upon for our water have become very unhealthy. (Yarra, Thomson, Murray / Goulburn) Many people blame the dams for this degradation. It is not the dams directly, but the volume of water being taken from the flow that is having the...

[TophersUnpopularView]

... negative effect on river health.

By taking a 'no new dams' stance, the greens and Labor have forced us to keep taking unsustainable amounts of water from these few rivers, all in the name of the environment. Now we have the Desal Plant and NS pipeline, both environmentally unjustifiable, but they were built because they could not build dams, all in the name of the environment. It's absurd, but it's true.

Environmentalists gave us the Desal plant and the NS pipe.

I take the opposite...

[MrAlanhalsted]

Topher, this is just awesome. Maybe this same theory could work for Adelaide if Melbourne is too shortsighted to make it work. Even though ew have a daft desal plant being built providing very little water and lots of pollution. Thank you!

[BaberJacks]

ecoloblue atmospheric water generator. base model 30liters per day up to there top of the range 5000 liters per day. why don't they get a few of them per street. come on guy's in talking solutions here and its fully power efficient.

[bendbrookwines]

Ok, Before supporting consider the following,

Source of water quoted at height of 250m, Distance Melb to Tas highlands say 250mies, curvature of earth 8in/mile over dist 50m therfore starting head 200m then someone has to calc pipe friction loss of proposed pipe over 400km and then we will know if water runs.

[TophersUnpopularView]

G'day bendbrookwines, thanks for the comment.

Those are good questions, and yes, I can answer them. :)

The curve of the earth is not a factor, because gravity works as a distance from the centre of mass (in our case the centre of the earth), therefore whatever distance the source is above sea level remains our maximum head.

The source cited in the video is 221m above sea level (In the video I simply say 'more than 200 metres'), but allowing the 21m as excess to ensure a high flow rate... TBC

[TophersUnpopularView]

... we have a head of 200m. A 2.5m diameter pipe with a rough cement lining (standard) has a head loss of .7m per 100m. This pipe will have a low friction polymer lining, or (depending on steel prices at the time of construction) could be built using a pure polymer pipe.

These figures lead to a flow rate of 270GL/Yr. However, there is more to the story. The Gairdner hydro scheme discharges into Lake Cethana, coming from an elevation of 450m. By plugging into that water we can have a max...

[jezeats]

Hmmm the above figures suggest to me that the head is lost after 28.57km then? Or is there more to it than that (I gather there probably is, otherwise there'd potentially be issues getting water from Thompson back to Melbourne)? I would kinda assume that if you had a perfectly flat pipeline then the water would consume all available space, but there still needs to be enough pressure to get it up above sea level. Then ideally somewhere high enough to feed into our existing system.

[TophersUnpopularView]

Ahh, excuse me. I believe I should have said 0.07m per 100m. Actual flow rate calculations are complex, it is not simply a linear rate of friction (whereby theoretically if you just made the pipe long enough, the resistance would build to the point where the water would not flow at all... defying gravity!) but is far more involved. I cannot do those calculations myself. This is where I depend on engineers and they have given me the above results of 270 - 410 GL/Yr.

Good pickup jezeats!

[jezeats]

Also I don't know if you've noticed, though Kenneth Davidson has covered this in his column in The Age a few times already. I seem to recall that he suggests that the pipeline could feed into Cardinia, which is just below 200m. Though I don't know if this assumes the water would be originating from 400m+ in Tassie. Though Davidson himself is an economist so I gather he's also been in touch with some engineers.

[TophersUnpopularView]

... flow rate of 410GL/Yr.

All in all, the idea works. Even if we had to build a slightly larger diameter pipe... the cost would go up a little but the cost / benefit ratio would still be light years ahead of the desal plant or anything else I've come across in all my research.

All that's left is to built it...

Thanks for the questions!

[bigsamwiches]

That was great mate, I've just sent a like to everyone on my email list and asked them to do the same.

Good Luck on making a change.

[herbertg21]

great vid =] Although to be honest, I am actually pleased that the Desalination Plant is currently getting constructed as it is one of the 1st major projects in the world post-GFC - the significance of this point is that money (privatized) can now get fed into more and more projects and get the world's economy rolling again. That being said, I believe in order to sustain Melbourne's future sustainability goals, this Trans-Tasman solution will probably be built soon or at least explored.

[jezeats]

Wrong, Flawed projects don't save the economy. Just look at Myki. The desal plant is just part of the plan to privatise water.

[herbertg21]

Myki was just a result of really poor management (most projects committed by the government are always overtime and overbudget as a consequence). As for the desal plant, it could be a plan to privatise water, but for the short-term it does create jobs and activity in the economy - furthermore, i think the idea of privatising water is the reason why big financiers got on board, as right now they're all hesitant to place big money into them.

[jezeats]

@herbertg21 Plenty of other things you could do to create jobs, like build railway lines for instance. Though instead we leave public transport to decay. Oh not least to mention we could invest in sustainable energy, and water pipeline from Tassie (btw Trans-Tasman would be to NZ if you didn't mean that... yeah they do have plenty of water down on the south island but the distance is a little far).

[stucko1]

waste of time and money, Peter Andrews could fix the problem permanently and we would never run out of water again

[pmelenhorst]

Thanks, very thorough and very convincing. Not claiming to know about this topic, I wonder though about long term water supply in Tassie? If Victoria is slowly drying up, and, in fact southern Australia, why is Tassie exempt? Would the infrastructure be cost effective if Tassie eventually dessicates like the rest of the southern states? Or is this hypothesis not likely? At least with desal we have an endless supply of aqua! Just a thought.

[TophersUnpopularView]

G'day pmelenhorst, thanks for the questions.

Opinions vary on the future of Tassies water supply. The CSIRO has recently backed away from claims that the drought in SE Aus is caused by Climate Change, and now suggest that it could be part of natural variability. Even projections based on dramatic climate change outcomes have had mixed results, with some predicting more rain in Tassie, others predicting less. For the moment, there is an abundance...

[clintonquealy]

So who should we vote for at next election topher?

[TophersUnpopularView]

...In your hypothesis about Tassie not having the rainfall to support the pipe in the mid / distant future, remember that the Desal plant has a limited lifespan. I suspect that the Desal plant will have to be replaced long before Tassies rainfall becomes unharvestable, meaning we would have been better off with the pipe. Desal is a good last resort... but it is exactly that. A last resort. For use only when all other options are exhausted.

[TophersUnpopularView]

@clintonquealy... I wish I had a good answer for that. Ted Ballieu's performance so far is very un-inspiring, and just last week he chose to take a cheap shot political stunt at bikies rather than putting forward a real policy on a real issue. His failure to make Labor pay for their ineptitude makes me question his ability.

All I can say is that I won't be voting for a party with Brumby or Holding. Either the Labor party get rid of them before the election, or I'll be voting elsewhere.

[AussieWire]

I have placed this link on my FB page , Ive also emailed kev rudd , john brumby, melbourne water, victorian water Ombudsmen and 6o minutes asking them all to do something cost effective to fix our water problem ...

Cheers Peace

[TophersUnpopularView]

G'day AussieWire, thanks for passing the videos around.

If you are interested, you can keep better informed by joining the 'Topher Appreciation Club' on FB. (YouTube wont let me post a link, but if you search, you will find!)

[Ihateearhair]

I am trying to be more politically aware, and getting better every day. How can the politicians NOT consider this as an option, their arrogance and lack of foresight (beyond the next election) is appalling. This is a great presentation and will be a factored into how I vote at the next election. I have forwarded this to all my Vic contacts, and hope they do the same.

[whatuseek]

Brilliant, the idea has a lot of merit. Jobs for Tassie, income for Tassie, water for metro Melb and our farmers. Maybe even flush out the Murray for our South Australian neighbours.

[TophersUnpopularView]

You got it! Everyone wins. :oD

[aquatone01]

Great video, Great explanation. I will be forwarding this to my friends. btw, you should be a TV presenter.

[MottTheWot]

Brilliant work.

[spindocbob]

The cost of a Tassie-Victorian pipeline would be a lot more than building recycling plants, which is the direction you should be heading. Have you ask Tasmania what they think of your plan? And doesn't restricting the flow of water down rivers and into the ocean have a flow-on effect (e.g. Snowy River)?

[TophersUnpopularView]

Thanks for your input spindocbob. Do you have any hard costings on recycling plants? I'm certainly interested in the possibility of upgrading the Eastern Treatment Plant to output potable water, but I have found no RELIABLE costings.

The handful of Tasmanians that I spoke with while I was there were (to my surprise) open to it, and in some cases very supportive. I know there is opposition to the idea over there, but I didn't meet anyone. Tassie Hydro (who are responsible for the water)...

[TophersUnpopularView]

... have been in discussions regarding the idea and are also open. I don't think the anti-feeling is nearly as strong as many Victorians seem to assume it would be.

Taking water from rivers can have a devastating effect. You only need to look at the Thomson or the Murray to prove that. But taking a SMALL amount of water (7%) has a very SMALL effect. AND it allows us to take less water from other rivers (like the Thomson) which means that overall, our rivers will be healthier.

[Plugger1962]

Great work Topher.

[2dragonsvineyard461]

See analytical comments after part 2. This is not as great as it seems! Two Dragons Finniss SA

[TophersUnpopularView]

Thanks for the feedback, see my reply's to your questions, also after part 2. :o)

All the best!

[sfsgsw666]

Great work man. Seriously you should put this to someone like Jon Faine.

[daniel1v4]

All that is missing is some theme music behind you!

[nickmarlow1]

once again, an excellent video, well done Topher.

[KalElTheGreat]

so far so good mate... now just waiting on the rest!