Gi vs. No Gi debate

[AidenReilly1]

The Gi doesn't make the grappler.

[izXztrickenX]

frank mir does gi jiu jitsu still to this day its a love for the art!!!much love my bjj friend!!

[takedown212000]

Josh Barnett and Jake Shields never trained with the gi. If you look at the first ADCC that Marcelo won he faced Otto Olsen in the finals. Otto was a college wrestler never training in the gi. Its the competitor and their dedication to getting better not what they wear

[MrBuddha721]

If gi and no gi grappling have such an argument then look at this from this view, why don't Greco roman wrestlers train Judo (w/gi)??

[BandakaKush]

One nice thing about training in the gi is that there is less direct skin to skin contact.

[darylonetwothree]

I can't help but notice that gi vs no gi is highly biased. People who train gi will sway towards that side of the argument, and vice versa . As far as I'm aware the concept of training fully in no gi is brand new, and has not taken the time to mature for the truly elite to fully rise to the top.

[fwsec]

Both art are great and yes gi players do dominate. @ any blue belt who would disrespect a black belt like Ken, you are the reason this art will be a fad like hula hoop or karate kid. We can disagree without resorting to being a keyboard warrior. Ken Primo has had more than one super fight and has submitted the best, obviously so has Eddie Bravo and I will never dis a bjj black belt who has done what these guys have done. Ken was also the translator and a huge part of Arte Suave documentaries.

[jaffar1808]

If you don't train to fight mma its really no need to train no gi. If talking about the streets gi training more practical people wear clothes on the street and you can do chokes on a guy even if just wearing a tshirt I seen it done. Sleeve hand chokes in fall winter,spring e.t.c work on the streets

[PaperNun]

Also let me just address this real quick. Its not fair to say all the good grapple rs today come from gi backgrounds. When No-Gi is still in its infancy. But there are pure No-Gi grapplers look at Denny Prokopos

Pan Am Championship - 1st place

Naga Arnold Championship - 1st place

United Gracie - 1st and 3rd place

Jiu Jitsu nationals - 1st place

US Open - 2nd place "twice"

No-Gi World - 1st place

US Nationals - 2nd place

etc.. etc..

[kenprimo]

@PaperNun did he train gi from the get go?

[PaperNun]

@kenprimo yah when he was like 14 with the Gracie's? But that just proves my point of No-Gi infancy. Denny has never been in any Gi tournaments nor did he even receive rank. "to the best of my knowledge anyway"

Ohh and also forgot to mention he was the "2010 FILA 1st place champion" as well. Sorry I asked him to slow down but he looked at me like I was stupid. ha

[kenprimo]

@PaperNun ok, lets say thats true, im pretty sure its not. but anyhow. lets say it is. lets say denny is good, thats what he is, hes not like adcc champ or anything or black belt pan am champ right? i respect that. ok, now how many others are strictly no gi grapplers and are adcc chanmpion? thanks, thats really my point, the percentages favor gi. can you seriously with a sane mind argue this? thanks

[PaperNun]

@kenprimo Ok I'm pretty sure ha its true Ken. Denny 1st met Eddie Bravo when he was 15. So you only have a very "small window" of him actually training in BJJ; so given just that fact alone, I'm pretty damn certain that backs up my formal statements.

& yes I can with a sane mind argue this. By asking how many more are there, you're already ignoring my point."No-Gi is still infant" Its barely 15yrs old & I gave you a clear example of a young No-Gi/AJJ champion. Its also an ad populous fallacy. 

[PaperNun]

Ok this is the last point i'm going to make, cause I don't want to like flood your channel.

But ok lets flip the argument on its head. Lets say for the sake of argument its 1992 and I was like "Ohh BJJ doesn't work, because look at all the Japanese style champions there've been!"

..I hope now you see my point. thank you.

[kenprimo]

@PaperNun today jiu jitsu is commonly a ground art, japanese jiu jitsu is not suited especially for the ground. no gi and gi are, that argument does not work. s'all good, one love man:) lets see the future:)

[OneWorldGoverment86]

@PaperNun i like the argument and i dont understand why the gi game wich is a lot diffrent from nogi makes your nogi game better. thats like saying if you train clinch takedowns in a gi you become a better greco roman wrestler.

[GHRepresent]

@PaperNun not gi is not in it's infancy. it's been around forever. do some research on luta livre.

[PaperNun]

You are so full of fail Ken. Gi is so conventional so 1994. Gi is terrible for fighting and for grappling. You have to develop your clinch game. That's were AJJ comes in especially with advent of "10th-planet". The Clinch game is everything now!!

No Gi > Gi

[BurtonGrappling]

Eddie Bravo: It's not the gi, it's the grappling.

[chulito1992]

i was ignorant at first about training with gi ....but then i tried it and it definitely improved my nogi game....the only thing that takes getting used to is the difference of control between the two..like nogi is with hooks and on the gi are the sleeves, pants, etc....but why people argue about which is best, i dont understand because in the end...its jujitsu....

[fwsec]

@chulito1992 Amen



[gr00ms1]

@jonobos dude, mma is the grandest stage of combat sports... so fuck off with that nonsense

[Krumpenstein]

Whoops, sorry! It's actually referred to as the "ignoring a common cause fallacy". And also I didn't mean my original comment to come off as a douchey. I really respect your accomplishments as a BJJ practitioner. I'm only a beginner, and my comment isn't based on experience, and I entirely allow for the possibility that the gi does improve no-gi. It doesn't quite sound logical but it could be.

[buchechajj09]

GI > NO GI

[Krumpenstein]

You're committing the "common cause fallacy" with your argument. Because A is associated with B then A causes B. To frame it in a logical format: All top no-gi grapplers train in the gi therefore the gi makes you better at no gi grappling. This argument doesn't take other causes into consideration so it's flawed.

[pcjudosambo]

You should train both Gi and No Gi. It is proven that GI grappling is much more technical than no gi BUT no gi grappling is more realistic for self-defense simply because not everyone is going to wearing a kimono style clothing on the street (and yes, I am aware that you can use shirts, sweaters, jackets, coats as kimono). Simply train both... why argue which one is better?

[kenprimo]

@pcjudosambo because it is proven that people who wear gis are generally better. I posted this so people are educated and I wanted to see if I was wrong. In terms of realistic, I think where I live and where many others pants and a shirt are more prevalent than no shirt, a rash guard and shorts. I always wear pants, except when down the beach. I I 90 percent of the time where a long sleeve shirt or jacket when I go out. Thanks

[pcjudosambo]

@kenprimo oh yes, I agree 100% that those who started off with a gi (and master it) are 100% better than those who simply train no gi from start. People like Werdum, Aoki, Sera, Jacare and everyone else you mentioned all had Gi training. So you're not wrong on this part .. Gi makes you better at No Gi but I do believe that no gi is better at self-defense. I live in FL where 90% of the time you wear shorts and shirts where most (not all) gi techniques won't work properly, so you resort to no gi

[gr00ms1]

@speedgliding its becoming a TMA vs MMA argument. Just wait and see ;)

[jappanese]

wiki quote-"It is actually derived from traditional articles of Japanese clothing". so why arent todays bjj practitioners using todays normal clothing? the gi has just stuck since the martial art comes from japan in the time where they used the gi as "traditional articles of japanese clothing".... SIGH.

[MLee1692]

Totally agree with you Ken. If the gi has such a negative effect on jiu-jitsu players (as some people claim), then we should see significantly less gi jiu-jitsu guys being no-gi/submission grappling world champions. Yet almost every single gi world champion is a no-gi world champion if not a respected no-gi power house.

[MLee1692]

I think all the no-advocates need to at least try on the gi and train in it for a while before giving their opinion. My cousin, my friends, and I were all very no-gi biased at one point, but the gi is very interesting. Once you put it on, you begin to love it and realize how it helps your game so much. Of course you need to train a lot of no gi for the appropriate situations, but the gi is awesome. No-gi checkers, gi chess =]

Try and train both! =D

[YorkshireGripper]

It's great to train both with and without, however, if you can become proficient at passing the guard etc with the gi, it is so much easier once you take the gi off. Plus it's nice to continue the lineage and culture of BJJ, hence you where the gi. Take the best from everything and implament it into your game.

[gr00ms1]

@ghrepresent if I got a greco roman match coming up.. I'm sure as hell not gonna train Judo.. obviously Jiu Jitsu is a little different but the principle behind the analogy holds true. And dude.. Read all my comments so I dont have to repeat myself.

[GHRepresent]

ppl are getting too much into the grabbing of material. U can't grab this in street fight blh blah blah. that is not really the point of gi grappling. the most important thing is offers you is the awarness of possiblities which are not immediatly evident in pure no gi training. I am a purple belt and I have trained jiujitsu for 31/2 year, majority with the gi. when i got back to no gi , i was just much more aware and i felt so free to move and flow. not to mention i was raping half the room.

[gr00ms1]

Give it time ;-J

[gr00ms1]

@speedgliding ... Gi training will eventually be phased out. Point blank. Nogi is the future because thats how MMA is done. 'speaks volumes' he says... lmao. This argument will quickly become a TMA vs MMA kinda argument over time. Because only the traditionalist are keeping the gi on. I'm not saying that the Gi doesnt offer some benefits.. but Nogi is far more beneficial for mma.

[kenprimo]

@gr00ms1 yeah, and who in the top does not train gi. Let's see who does, Aldo, Edgar, GSP, Shogun, And Cain. And oh yeah, Fedor. Thats MMA, now lets look at nogi adcc, roger, marcelo, jacare, drysdale, all gi players. How can you argue this, seriously?

[kenprimo]

@kenprimo oops, and 185, Silva

[GHRepresent]

at the end of the day i think the both supplement eachother perfectly. all the top , high level guys train both seriouly, and i think that is the way to go. there is reason u don't see eddie bravo guys at the top level of bjj.

[GHRepresent]

@gr00ms1 not when all the top, no literally on the elite guys are gi guys. I mean if everyone is jumping in fire , u'll go with them.  Get off the band wagon. pure no gi style has had a very long time to establish itself. go read about luta livre vs jiujitsu. and u can ask urslef why haven't i ever heard of luta livre?

[speedgliding]

@gr00ms1 Too bad the statistics dont support your assertion.

The no-gi guys have been claiming this for a DECADE now. Yet, a decade later, all the greats still train in the GI. This lame argument is officially old and dead. The top MMA guys *STILL TRAIN IN THE GI*. Wake up and smell the coffee. This no-gi only crap is nothing more than marketing hype. You have been taken.

[Jonobos]

@gr00ms1 BJJ does not = mma. God I hate you tapout zombies.

[MLee1692]

I like this guy. Very humble and sounds intelligent.

[Aplus54]

Gi grappling is more realistic for the street. The issue is not about choking with cloth it is about controlling, passing and sweeping with cloth grips. In real life people wear clothes. Gripping strength and learning to manipulate people while holding onto cloth is one of the most important aspects of real fighting.

[gr00ms1]

i forgot about this vid! lol its funny looking back at my old comments... anyway.. my opinion is for mma and no gi grappling train heavy wrestling! if you havent noticed wrestling is the new black. im not saying throw out jitz but lets get real.

[speedgliding]

@gr00ms1 every UFC title holder is a BJJ black belt or brown belt. Speaks volumes. And they all train with the GI. Top MMA coach Dave Camarillo requires GI training, and also emphasizes wrestling, which is also critical to the grappling game.

[pcjudosambo]

Once again, I agree as well. Gi has more techniques than no gi. Gi is harder than no gi but any good grappler must train in both.

[thatkindofguy234]

thanks! I do MMA on Thursdays and Tuesdays but I want to do something at the weekend too as I have nothing to do apart from sit around doing nothing. So I thought i might go every saturday to this gym in my area and they taught both BJJ with the gi and without and this really helped me! thanks!

[neomage2021]

Great insight here. I have always done no gi geared mainly towards mma since I train at Greg Jacksons. Over the summer i was visiting my little brother who is a gracie barra blue belt. He let me borrow an extra gi and we rolled just for fun and i was amazed how easy of a time he had sweeping me and collar choking me as well as how good his defense was. That convinced me I need to start training in a a gi as well as my no gi to really get my game better

[kn1feonly]

no gi may be limited but it is also more realistic if you are going to compete in mma

[zerofox94]

Wait until 10th planet ppl rise from no gi nd will show u don't need the gi

[pcjudosambo]

@zerofox94 you don't need a gi, that's a fact BUT if you know how to grapple with gi, then you definitely know how to grapple without gi because every no gi move is practiced with the gi. When you practice with gi, you still have your arm triangle chokes, rubber guard, wrestling style takedowns, arm bars, kimuras, leg locks, all of that is inside the GI ... BUT in no go, you don't have many judo style throws & chokes that can be applied to any clothing on the street. So it's important to know Gi

[zerofox94]

@pcjudosambo dude wat ur saying is true but dude when u do different kinds of chokes such as darce for example its different with gi than no gi trust me ask , nd plus rubber guard is from 10th planet no gi is is better applied without the gi, plus can u do a cross collar choke or variety of gi chokes in real life. also there are so many moves that 10th planet is creating, ive been doin bjj for a couple months, its good nd fun but i like 10th better, dude ive trained under Kayron Gracie i kno man

[pcjudosambo]

@zerofox94 i am sure you know and i am happy to see that you've been training bjj for months, i've been training judo and russian sambo for years under world judo & sambo champion Master Zurab. ALL of the no gi chokes can be applied to gi. Rubber guard can be applied in gi as well, hell, I've seen rubber guard applied in Combat Sambo and that's gi. What I was trying to say is that ALL of the techniques in NO GI can be applied to GI but not ALL Gi can be applied to Gi.

[Mr76DRAGON]

I train at Team Nogueira under Wald Bloise . We train both Gi and No Gi ! I would recommend for anybody to train both as much as possible . Anytime spent learning is productive time ! Just keep an open mind and train as often as you can !!!!!!

[1tmoch]

It could just be that "no gi" is fairly new and therefore since masters are not made overnight, all the masters of course would have a background in gi. We'd have to wait say 10 or 15 years from now to see who'd got the best fighters. This video would have been more helpful if it gave specific examples of its benefits or cons of not having gi.

[fuze59]

Great analysis Ken :)

Our head trainer (black belt gi) always emphasizes the importants of training both as much as possible and not to neglect the no-gi game. We are a bjj club, not mma.

[mitchhsansom]

I used to be a no gi guy, but recently I've done a 180 and want to train more in the gi. However my school does each half of the time so I really don't have a say.

The gi can really be good for learning how to escape positions, especially the mount and side control.

[tom22isthebest]

I agree with you, I train in gi and no gi but I find the gi alot better because it involves more thinking in my opinion. Also I find that no gi can get a little boring because you have less options. There is also no move you cant do in gi thats you can do in no gi, plus gi fighters always have the optian to just take off the gi

[bruceoner]

truth....i like how u preface everything with the grappling resume

[mysonisbadazz]

Ken is a beast ! Class act !

It would be an honor to train with him......

Love the thoughts. I love no gi. I'm pure BJJ, No wrestling at all.

[jaymont1984]

here's an idea...why not do both. there is nothing wrong with learning more techniques.

[gr00ms1]

I'm not saying one is better then the other. I'm just saying you shouldn't trash nogi guys. Nogi systems are just now being fully developed. Give it time. Until then I guess we'll have to listen to haters like you ghrepresent.

[gr00ms1]

Is that anything like lucha libre? Lol and listen you think the pure no gi guys are horrible? All I have to say is I hope your never in a brawl with an old wrestler who takes his shirt off. They're monsters. But the fact still remains that they're only 2 stateside pure no gi black belts. Giv them time. Oh and Josh Barnett destroyed in heavyweight no gi worlds. Jake Shields is a beast. Denny Prokopos won brown belt div in no gi worlds.

[gr00ms1]

I know he isn't but the point he was getting at was if you want to be top notch you should train gi. Which I have nothing against. But we are just now getting to see the first pure nogi black belt compete. Denny Prokopos. And he just finished second 1-0 but had a triangle in. I believe it was at grapplers quest.

[GHRepresent]

@gr00ms1 have u ever heard of luta livre, luta livre is no gi , and that is what the call it in brazil. there soo many luta livre black belts out there. they dont get too far against gi trained blackbelts

[gr00ms1]

They are 2 different sports in my book. Look at judo (gi) vs greco roman (nogi) both have the same goal. Just vastly different in their routes to get there. Also he talks about Nog. Look up his vid on this subject. And he states all these ppl who have gi black belts well up until recently there was no place that offered nogi belts so of course they would have to have gi belts. Denny prokopos took 3rd in his first bb world tourney. This stuff works.

[LocoChaz987]

I saw the video where Eddie talked about him. Eddie Bravo himself is a product of the gi, under Machado. Ken's saying the majority of submission grappling champions (gi, no gi and MMA) are from a gi-based grappling background. He's not saying the stuff doesn't work!

[iwvcombatclub]

it seems like it comes down to the climate that a person lives in, for example people in cold weather, like Alaska, should learn gi work and people that live in hot climates,

jacketless climates, should do no-gi. .....is this fair to say?

[GHRepresent]

u don't make any sense. the function of the gi is to learn the art not to use cloting as a self defense tool. ppl in brazil train gi more than no gi and thy live in hot climate. and they have the best bjj guys.

[iwvcombatclub]

first, thanks for responding to my post. Secondly I am not trying to belittle any martial art style.

my 3 point argument goes as follows;

#1 growing over-relient on gripping the Gi, is not-sport specific to no-gi events like MMA.

#2 The Gi is illegal in pro-MMA in California.

#3 If more clothes, (Gi) makes your no-gi game better, then why not train in boots and a winter jacket on top of that?

Thanks...

[iwvcombatclub]

part 2

The most common arguement for training in the gi, is the fact that the best grapplers do.

This is not a valid arguement, it is there hard work and dedication that have made them champions, not some magical property bestowed upon them by there clothing. Give me one good reason to train in the Gi, for no-gi events, and I will buy one. Thanks.

[GHRepresent]

@iwvcombatclub well i heard this straigh from Saulo Ribeiro's mouth and i have experienced it myself as well. thi gi restrict u in way that u have to move more technically instead of just running arond ur opponent using ur athleticism. that is what pure no gi guys do, the stronger guy more athletic persons wins. cuz they are faster and win on the scrambles. with the gi u can't just be fast u have to move technically

[GHRepresent]

@iwvcombatclub another thing is that non of the pure no gi guys are any good. so that argument about the top bjj guys train with gi is a valid one

[frost310]

Damn dude, thanks for the video. You didnt only state ur opinion but backed it up with facts! Time to share this with the Gi haters. Thanks again. 1.

[lucubration808]

i dont even understand why people are arguing, you cited purposes, champions, mma, reasoning behind it, yeah, i train both, but my focus is mainly on gi, its a tigher, more complicated game in my opinion its helps "cover all bases" so to speak

[iwvcombatclub]

I just think No-Gi training is more appropriate for self defense and MMA, thats all. I would like to know other peoples opinion on this matter.

I recently saw one of Eddie bravos videos and he made many good points about Gi vs. No Gi for MMA. He says people only like the Gi because its a Japanese Superhero outfit. Not because of its functionality in MMA.

thanks again.

[iwvcombatclub]

First thanks for responding to my post, Secondly just because someone used a t-shirt to finish someone in a street fight it still does'nt de-validate my arguement which goes as follows;

A. Major premise: A gi is far stronger than a t-shirt.

B. Minor premise: Growing reliant on sturdy material may spell disaster in MMA(Gi-less)

and temperate weather self defense.

Thanks guys, I look forward to your response.

[kenprimo]

what response are you looking for, the fact that with a gi you can also do no gi and get used to both, but just no gi will not prepare you for gi.

[535manbearpig]

@kenprimo i dont know why people put them apart... i think they go with each other, so many key moves that u learn in gi grappling which u dont get in no gi. I wrestle ass well so of course i like no gi, but ever since i started wrestling gi grappling has become frustrating cuz people grab my pants and shit lol

[speedgliding]

@iwvcombatclub Anyone who has taken the time to test his GI techniques using a flimsy t-shirt will quickly discover that a t-shirt is incredibly strong when you bunch it up in your hands, effectively turning it into a rope. Far far far stronger than required to choke someone effectively. Youre argument is therefore completely invalid. Even a flimsy t-shirt is stronger than required for a choke. If you cant defend my t-shirt choke, you are in BIG trouble. Asleep in 5-7 secs.

[samcbasco]

As for the Gi being more realistic in self defense, I totally disagree. I live in Sunny southern California and it is very rare that I ever encounter anyone wearing a jacket, even in the winter time! T-shirts will not hold up to Gi work. I could pull a car out of the mud with a Gi, but not with a t-shirts their too fragile!

[kenprimo]

okay. Rules aside (which differ from tourney to tourney anyhow) So what cant you do gi that you can no gi?

[daz45]

even if they were a t-shirt you can apply gi techniques it doesn't have to be a jacket, you can apply collar chokes on someone wearing a t-shirt if you trained in a gi you'd understand this.

[kenprimo]

i had a student get an x choke from guard on a dude in a t shirt from guard. it was a street fight.

[rga5777]

Sounds great, you must have a high class spot!

[MrMZaccone]

@kenprimo Hey Ken, I need to know if you think this is high percentage. The reason I ask is that every time I try to deomonstrate a gi choke of any kind on a t-shirt , all I get is a ripped t-shirt.

[kenprimo]

@MrMZaccone i need to know if there are more moves gi or no gi? ive used a t shirt to choke someone berfore

[MrMZaccone]

@kenprimo Obviously I would say there are more moves with the gi because anything you can do with the gi you can do without but more than that it's a matter of context.

[jaytor15]

there shouldnt even be a debate.....both are cool and everyone should try both....not eliminate one or the other. Its just a matter of taste......I like red you like blue...thats it

[sebastianvalle]

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu founder, Carlos Gracie, prefered always gi. In many of the first MMA (vale-tudo) tournaments in Brazil, back to the 1920's, Carlos asked his oponents (or oponents of his brother Helio) to use a gi also, so it would be a "more reallistic fight" (in his words).

[driftkaztik]

I always looked at Gi and No Gi as similar animals, but very different as well.

Truth is I like to learn both... and I dont see as a BJJ person why anyone wouldnt.

Gi has alot of tech.. I mean just a bigger list than No Gi as far as chokes and graps and even some of guards (Robson Guard, 93 guard)..

No Gi gots its pluses too.. I guess for the MMA fans that are only into MMA, that is all they need.

But this debate will always be part of Jiu jitsu and no gi grappling forever.

[Taabithaa]

whats Gi?

and whats the differcen between theeem exactly...?

[J0hnFreeman]

I like both, because its good be well rounded but if you could do gi you could do no-gi, i think gi is funner too. little harder too

[dragonballjiujitsu]

I have been training BJJ for about 8 years and got my first belt from Royce. I think the Gi is fine as long as you don't grow dependent on it. I have seen this far too often. I roll with someone with the gi and they can tap me maybe half the time, with the gi off, they can't come close.

Take a good look at Eddie Bravo

[PennLegend852]

that was a pretty interesting vid. I've only been training in bjj for a few months, but wondered how well i'd transition to no-gi

[MrBclary6]

i love no gi jiu jitsu but like the gi for judo.the gi is excellent for demonstrating self defense chokes {attacker has jacket on } thanks again for your tips and advice ken

[tpbisdivine]

I think you really need both. It's like asking should I train my left hand or my right. We need to master all of our weapons. I like to train with Gi because it gives you more options in real life situations. However training no-gi you have you prepared when those options aren't available. Any school that doesn't cover both are doing their students a disservice

[NYRangers22294]

i like gi better because it'll be more useful for me b/c where i live everyone wears jackets which are like gis so ill be able to do BJJ moves with gi for self defense

[civiurda]

interesting thoughts Ken, I tend to agree with you, the gi slows the game down making you focus on efficiency and technique. I love no-gi also but i think training with the gi is a necessary part of bjj

[niggerbaby420]

hey, im a blue belt under kurt pellegrino. im just wondering what u thought about him. i just got into the sport recently and am not to familar with what people think about him. im just curious.

[kenprimo]

he is really good

[niggerbaby420]

k thanks haha. i just wanted someone whos beenin the sport for awhiles opinion of him.