Myers Briggs (VQ #2): Intuitive Thinkers and Faith

[PalmiMeteo]

you should really work at an Air Traffic Control.

[stiaa04]

A billion christians, a billion muslims make certain things percieved as socially acceptable and sects do them. You could say that it can no longer be defencible with "What does it matter if I'm right or wrong about god eixisting I'm living a moral life as a christian/muslim", actually it does matter alot.

If I was wrong about gods existance(eventual good ultimate end plan) then it is immoral to continue to be a part of that social acceptance creating group. And I had low odds of being right.

[stiaa04]

I can't be very soft on my former christian self. I don't see my life as badly lived though an immense sense of positive energy, relief, etc came from throwing away christianity, which suprised me since I expected that I was one of the most relaxed ppl in the world to my religion. But I cant be soft my life as a religious person because being a religious person is like voting:

[stiaa04]

I didn't know the real meaning/significance of the word evidence at the time, in my language(norwegian) there is a bad habit of using only the word and concept proof not evidence few ppl uses the word evidence in daily life mostly, made even worse by bad american soap operas where the worse subtitlers subtitle evidence with the norwegian word proof.

I learned about evidence and some other concepts like cognitive bias, pack mammal empathy as a source of altruism and morals etc.

[stiaa04]

I'm an INTP reason for seeing your videos was to learn more about the auxillary function stuff cause I didn't understand it from others.

I am also an atheist for 3 years now and a starcraft fan btw :D how ironic.

I agree, as a christian I was trying to be logical, I no longer believe I was at the time, but based on my critical thinking at the time(uninformed, unstructured 'feels logical'-like) I was a logical person in the sense that I liked preferred and tried to be rational.

[kh884488]

Very good video, thanks for sharing. It is refreshing to have the topic of reason and faith discussed in a manner that does not degrade to emotive ranting.

I'm and INTJ and a Christian and earlier in my life had difficulty reconciling the NT side of my personality with the Christian tradition within which I was raised, but now I feel comfortable with where I stand. However, I feel that this is an issue that each person must approach for themselves throughout their own life.

[bestofcgs]

Everything starts with faith. It is a faith that you will wake up tomorrow instead of die.

[googamanga]

Using "faith logically" can happen at small scales but the underlying issue is that faith is not logically consistent at larger scales.

If the question is "should I give money to homeless"" then an underlying premise of "God says to give money to homeless" is good enough (and is logical) to lead to a conclusion of "Yes, give $ to homeless"

However if the question is "Is there a God?", the scope becomes too big to keep both faith and logic happy.

[googamanga]

@googamanga

Unfortunately I don't think there is a "Happily Ever After" conclusion to the faith & logic marriage.

On a more Positive note... People are not computers, so we don't crash if we have contradicting theories/values in our minds. Our mind's imagination is good enough to create philosophical systems that can merge any phenomena into something that feels coherent so we don't have to lose sleep over it...

[jerms246]

im an intj and i have a sense of spirituality myself. i dont see how an NT would have that hard a time with faith. i would think that because we NTs are much into ideas and concepts, then we would be more open to faith than say an ST.

[sandbar3000]

I'm so glad that you did this video. I often wondered if there was any personality type that was more inclined to be an atheist.

I did not know that it would the intuitive person. When I think of the intuitive person, I think of "gut feelings" and in my mind - an athiest would not make a choice or not act upon a "gut feeling" , but rather act upon what they can see.

Does any of this make any sense to you? I'm in school as well, so take your time in getting back to me!

[Swebgotenks]

Intuitive is opposite to Sensing, which is what you accusing Intuitive of being.

[sandbar3000]

Accusing? I was not accusing anyone. I love the MBTI. And I am sensing and I think in black and white and in pictures - just like Dr. Temple Grandin!

[Swebgotenks]

I realize this, I was attempting to answer your question. These gut feelings are more akin to "Sensing" rather than intuitive, your original post had the two confused.

[sandbar3000]

oh, okay. I guess I'm confused. I understand the MBTI seperate from my mind (if that makes any sense)

In my mind a sensing person would use his 5 senses for decisions. In my mind- how can a sensing person even "have" gut feelings? If the 5 senses are key, then a "gut" feeling is an added sense.

So, I'm just asking a general question "Would not intutitives have the "gut" feeling, and not the sensing type? Or is the "intutitive" really all about

"peer reiewed journals" ??

[sniktawleahcim]

Or is the "intutitive" really all about

"peer reiewed journals" ??

haha you are obviously not an N-type.

[sandbar3000]

Obviously. I am soooo much an SJ -it is not even funny. When I did a "mock" MBTI at the age of about 16, I was an SP.

[sandbar3000]

My mind is thinking that the MBTI is backwards - kind of like financial accounting and the mirror image.

However, I do understand the concept of the MBTI seperate from my way of thinking.

[Swebgotenks]

This "gut" feeling is not necessarily either I or S but something developed elsewhere entirely. An I would likely seek further understanding through thought, while your version of S is correct.

[sandbar3000]

2:48 period. Thank you. I love you!

[ChaosmanOne]

Secondly, I think that if an atheist is professing "faith" in a religion that he knows is flawed then, as an INTP, it can only be because he believes that at some future time it will be a benefit to him. Whether he believes that it will result in everlasting life in some possible "afterlife", or he believes that it will provide some benefit (financial or otherwise) in this life is the question that must be asked in these cases.

[ChaosmanOne]

A rational, logical atheist would more than likely give the panhandler at 6:15 some change knowing that that small amount of money will not in a calculable way affect his/her future life, but could conceivably be of greater value to the panhandler due to his/her impoverished situation. I know this because as an INTP myself AND an atheist, this is the decision tree that I begin with as I approach. This requires some significant and accelerated mental calculations virtually every time.

[mymind1086]

Hmm... I think it takes faith to believe anything. Even your own logic. Why is your or my logic correct? One person may say that it is logical to say there is no afterlife. One person may say it is logical to say there IS an afterlife. Obviously a person who sees the afterlife as logical will see it logical to live as if he will live forever.  They view it as absurd to NOT believe in the afterlife, and vise versa. My dad is an INTJ and a pastor at the same time.

[raigekimaru]

an INTJ pastor. that's cool. I usually see pastors as ENFJ or ESTJ.

[mymind1086]

Yeah, I think a lot of people probably see him is an "E" who see him at church. But because I lived with him, I know that he desperately needs alone time to recharge after being with all the people at church.

[sandbar3000]

I think it is interesting  to see a pastor as an NF. I want to look into this further and see what makes an NF in faith tick. (as opposed to making an SJ tick in matters of faith)

[raigekimaru]

SJs tend to be more into the rules of faith and what they're "supposed to do". they tend to like the routine and traditional values that go along with it such as service and strong work ethic.

NFs are more into having a strong relationship with God and connecting with people. we also gravitate towards ideas like faith, forgiveness, mercy, and altruism.

[sandbar3000]

I think SJ's in general like to follow rules (From what I have read up on the MBTI and from my last paper for my leadership class). As a person that has Asperger Syndrome - it think the SJ fits me to a T. I love rules and policies and stuff like in the world of "business" . (I'm a MBA student)

I am also an 'Administators" according to my personality type.

May be my SJ personality is why I do not have a "close" relationship with God as other Christians may.

[sandbar3000]

amen

[sandbar3000]

Amen. About the NT and NF's. I think I read that the NF's like to debate the existance of God. I'll have to find a link to that. I'm an SJ and what I read about the SJ's is that they just follow the rules given in "theology".

[functionvoid]

good video very logical

[QueenLeilani]

I think it's funny how you put on your 1st video on the side bar description that says you're going to put up a video up every 1-2 days. lol But it's been a year since the last video previous to this. haha. You should probably delete that part in the description so you don't find yourself always apologizing in every video for your "hiatus."

[oceanus2012]

I'm not an atheist although I do have atheistic tendencies. Regardless, the issuance that I have with gnostics is the idea of placing faith in a higher power to avoid the overwhelming sensation that life and choices are ultimately decided by independent thought. Because there is no palpable (sensory) proof that there is any religious figurehead, the tangible evidence points to the theory that personal will remains the motive of the individual, regardless of influence.

[raigekimaru]

I think God is more chill than most people think, but that's just me. it's dangerous though if you take it the wrong way.

[omegaroyal]

Faith is what allows us to act in this world despite the constant dangers it presents. Without faith, we would be too scared to move.

[000majorwinters000]

I agree, and I think that motivates many people.

[sandbar3000]

That is true. I have faith that my car will get me to class on Tuesday nights. I guess I need to have more faith in stuff - since fear is a big part of me. (I fear buses and not getting off at the right place)> this is why I drive instead!

[roidroid]

it sounds like you're essentially saying that although not all faiths are incompatible with the NT type... Christianity (or at least the type that both you and tacoma200 were brought up with) certainly is.

[barcode9588]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Not even close.

[roidroid]

"not because it was illogical or irrational. But the system of logic it was based on was incompatible with my own."

given the context, i thought you were implying that "systems of logic" could be shared amongst MBTI types (such an NT). And thus - your own logical incompatibility with your religion's system of logic could be perhaps a shared experience common to many NT types - such as tacoma200.

ie: perhaps he too would say "Christianity's system of logic seems incompatible with my own".

[barcode9588]

Yeah, I can see how you would think that's what I meant. I'll be more clear next time. All I was trying say really, is that Christianity was just "not my cup of tea", as in I find a person's system of faith and logic to be a personal choice.

[roidroid]

Ok i understand this isn't the point you were trying to bring up, but since you havn't - do you mind if i do?

How possible do you think it is that the logical falling out you had with Christianity IS INDEED a common problem that NTs (or even people in general) may have?

I've always taken the MBTI to be an exersise in how we are all similar. It's 2nd nature now to ponder if certain things are a commonality between certain types.

You and tacoma200 make 2 :), perhaps there is a pattern.

[barcode9588]

It's funny you bring that up, because there's been a poll on INTP Central (the main INTP internet forum) in regards to to religious leanings in the forum population. The results of that poll were overwhelmingly in favor of what you suggest - most INTPs on the forum are atheists or agnostics. Go figure.

[tacoma200]

Christianity is indeed a problem for me. The definition of faith I'm talking about is religious faith defined as "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence". Yes I think there is a pattern with NT's. All my friends/peers are Christian and it puts me in the difficult position of being the sole doubter. I get a lot of pressure from them but they respect my open honesty. To them the bible is the ultimate unquestionable authority while my mind makes me question that.

[tacoma200]

I do respect my friends and their faith and have diligently searched for evidence that the bible is credible enough to be taken as fact. It's a very uncomfortable position to be in when you feel you are letting your friends down but have to be true to you self. So most of the time I have to live with this struggle in silence. Respect..

[000majorwinters000]

I see what you mean here. I should hope you don't let too much of that pressure get to you, most of my highly religious friends are willing enough to accept that I have different beliefs, and they don't try to pressure me into agreement. Respect indeed.

[caballislife]

In earlier videos, I heard you say that you are uncomfortable with illogical people. Perhaps these people that you are uncomfortable with, like you, see themselves as logical but simply differ from you in their tastes of tea. It is interesting that you bring up "systems of logic" because it seems that everyone has a system of logic as you seem to have presented the term, but I would like you to tell me what a system of logic actually is.

[caballislife]

It would seem that if you were a Christian at any time, you would fear God and therefore believe that he is the consummate in all possible qualities including the composition of logical systems. At what point in time did you start thinking that it would be more favorable to abide by a self-composed system of logic than the one proposed in the bible. I would like to know what about Christianity's system of logic conflicted with your system of logic. Can't wait for more of your insightful vids!

[kj01a]

2nd post

around. so were exactly do atheist(again trying not to stereotype) get there morals from and why are they usually the same as the religious person's?

[barcode9588]

Another question to ask is, would aliens on another planet whom share all our fundamental qualities eventually evolve an identical set of morals as ours? I suppose if atheists are evolutionists, then one might speculate that morals arise out of natural selection, ie. those whom reside in communities are more selectively fit than those on their own, and so the communities that can coexist (eg. not murder each other) are in turn, more selectively fit than other communities.

[barcode9588]

Likewise, I am also a believer that religion itself is an evolutionary construct. Religion unites communities under one strong, absolute conviction which in turn makes its followers more selectively fit than another community without such an absolute guiding litmus of right and wrong. Afterall, an organism acts with most conviction and therefore most strength when he believes he is right.

[kj01a]

I have one question. now i know you said that you weren't trying to stereotype atheists. and neither am I but were do atheists get there morals. Of couse the religous person gets their morals from whichever text they happen to regonize but if ideal atheist gets their belief structure from imperical evidence shouldn't that also be were they get their morals from. I mean if all the atheists were running around with a "binary moral code" if you will wouldn't we have a bunch of HAL 9000's running

[CMTHEN1954]

Just like to comment on your understanding that morality is simply whatever conduct that determines the survivality as our community. Following this argument, the community that slaughters other communities to survive must be the most moral. e.g. Nazism would be the most moral philosophy and so is mindless terrorism, since these two ideas ensure that the perpetrators survive at the expense of others.

[barcode9588]

Hey CM, thanks for watching. What I'm saying is not that morality is whatever determines survival, but rather, that every community has a tendency to gravitate towards certain moral standards that are in place because they are, to that community, selectively favorable. Just because something is selectively favorable does not mean that it is "moral" if we evaluate it from where we are today. Conceivably many Nazis thought that they were being moral by wiping out Jewish individuals.

[paliut1992]

i completely agree....also gave me a another way to think about what faith is, another great video

[tacoma200]

Thank you barcode9588 for taking the time to leave a video response. I really appreciated your input on this important subject.  I only wish I could articulate my thoughts as well as you do. Keep up the good work and thanks again.