Duh! The whole question turned into garbage. Notre Dame is a Catholic University and these people were demonstrating for a very Catholic issue. One of the people arrested was a Catholic Priest. Notre Dame = Our Lady. It is owned by the Catholic diocese there. This is so pathetic because it is Catholic liberal against Catholic Traditional Who do you think is winning?
lol you dumb whiny moron ekajeht. people are starving to death under tyrants, and you call revolution terrorism. open your eyes and pull your head out of your ass.
@ekajeht lol.so killing an innocent unborn child is wrong but killing an innocent muslim is fine.nice thinking there.and i think i was cenk who said this, when you ejaculate do you cryogenically store your sperm or do you MURDER it?because sperm is alive incase you didnt know.and BTW when we breathe we kill millions of microscopic bacteria which is floating around in the air so you do kill SOMETHING all the time.and 1 more thing why should a mother not get an abortion because of YOUR beliefs?
@ekajeht ok then why don't you and the terrorists go somewhere far away form me and the innocent Muslim civilian and blow each other up. Then maybe the peaceful innocent Muslim civilians that just want to liver there lives and the peaceful innocent westerners that just wants to live their lives, can do just that.
@ekajeht I'm sorry your just flat out wrong, I know Muslims personally that speak out against the acts of Muslim terrorists all the time. I have seen Muslim officials do the same thing. while I wish more people would speak out about it, people like you put the innocent Muslims on defense when you say they should all die. it becomes an us vs them issue so they will side with their them. You are a part of the problem not part of the solution.
@fireflygirl246 Well one of those good muslims that was a police officer training with our troops JUST TURNED AND OPENED FIRE ON OUR TROOPS KILLING 6 OF OUR TROOPS!!!
Point out those GOOD muslims to me!
Better yet tell the dead troopers families about how good they are!
@ekajeht That was one person doing a horrible thing, not all Muslims doing a horrible thing. Timothy McVay, a christian, kill many innocent men, women and children, dose that me all Christians are evil?? should we round up all the Christians and kill them because of what Tim did.
Your hate towards all Muslims it the greatest recruitment tool the terrorist have. They point at people like you and say "look they want to kill us, just for being Muslim". way to help the terrorist dick head.
@ekajeht While I agree there are more then a few Muslim states that condone terrorism that is not the fault of all Muslims. While I would agree that some Muslims should die for there crimes and because they are dangerous to others, that is not the fault of all Muslims.
I think there ideas are backward and mid-evil & I think that they brain wash there children into believing something so radically they will kill and die for it. I don't hate the peaceful Muslim that minds there own business.
Your just a blithering idiot. To take the actions of a few and condemn an entire creed with them is like saying all men are rapists cause some men rape women. your no smarter than the dumbest femi-nazi and I hope you know that. you dumbass.
@thetrueturnip really before or after her husband puts her on trial for adultery and have her executed. I know there are a lot of Muslims that see this sort of thing as evil like most of us in the west, but it is still going on so lets not portend that Islam is progressive, like Christianity it is very much regressive and in my opinion should be looked down upon for that alone, just like Christianity and radical conservatives.
It's a Catholic institution, and Obama's policy goes against the universal Magisterium. It is a disgrace that he was allowed to speak and receive his "degree," and Notre Dame should be removed from the list of approved Catholic universities in the United States for allowing such obstinate heresy
To the people saying Notre Dame shouldn't allow pro-choice speakers: this was anything but political. It's a tradition at Notre Dame, dating back to Eisenhower I believe, that the President gives the commencement speech the year they are inaugurated. There have been other presidents that have spoken at ND that have been pro choice and no ones has said a thing. Why now?
You yourself are disregarding official church teaching on homosexuality- which states that homosexuality in itself is not wrong. The church condemns ACTS of homosexuality, but it also condemns prejudice against people's sexual orientation.
@ekajeht well you paid for bullets that killed civilians of iraq, afghanistan and over 150 other countries around the world. so how do you feel about that?
@ekajeht so every single muslim is vermin? its strange you have such disregard for the life of over 1.5 billion people, yet you want to stop abortion, you are backwards, man.
@ekajeht muslims are the same as christians and jews, believe the same phony shit, like the tooth fairy, santa clause. you people are unreasonable, what if a woman is raped by her father, would you provide her with an abortion? and btw, having such disregard for more than 1.5 billion people makes you worse than dirt, and you do not deserve to live on the same planet as the rest of us.
First off; abortions are done to fetuses, which aren't even alive yet to begin with as the heart has yet to start beating. I'm no doctor but this is covered in high school health class, so anyone with a basic understanding of how biology works would see the holes in said argument.
Secondly, you can't judge an ntire ethnic group like that. True, the religion is flawed, but so is Christianity. And I happen to be christian myself.
He can speak there, yet for them to give Obama an award.. is foolish. It shows verification of his views and basically throws away our 2000 year tradition and love of lord Jesus Christ.
It is incredible to me that there are still (or ever were, for that matter) people who deny the Shoah. It is a fact better documented and verifyable than most historical events we merely accept out of hand.
The question for deniers is, Who will speak for you when the enemies of humanity come for you? Who, after your long silence, will be left to denfend you?
Calling an unborn child a fetus is accurate, but deceptive. "Fetus" refers to a stage of development in mammalian animals (including humans), nothing more. It has nothing to do with the humanity of the unborn child. "Fetus" simple leads people unfamiliar with basic biology to believe that the unborn child is somehow less human than it is.
Hmm...I have to say I despise those dead fetus posters people carry around, but then again, they have the right to do so. We have to protect all forms of free speech.
there wasn't a violation of free speech here- Notre Dame kicked them out- they're a private university, and they are entitle to your own property- for example, Megaspiderman, I don't have the right to walk into your house and protest the Iraq War all day- march around your kitchen with picket signs etc.
I have freedom of speech- but not the freedom to take away the freedoms of others- and one of which is the right to property and ownership.
So protesters are sick if they push baby cariages around with fake babies covered in fake blood but its called art when someone makes a mural of the Virgin Mary out of dung in NYC? yea, makes alot of sence. there you liberals go again with your hipocracy.
Hey I am for people protesting, but the garbage that came out of A. Keyes and R Terry's mouths was utterly appalling, The anti-abortion movement is led by psychotic crackpots. It's not like Obama legalized abortion.
BTW, can someone criticize something without coming up with the right wing equivalent? They didn't make that picture nor had anything to do with it. You sound like petty like Laura Ingraham.
"Media outlets are reporting that late-term abortion doctor George Tiller has been shot and killed at his church in Wichita, Kan."
Yet another victory for the "pro-life" side, eh?
I hold the 'moderate' pro-birth crowd equally responsible. When you make this man the centerpiece of your demonology, repeatedly denounce him as a murderer or worse, this is what you reap for your troubles. I would hope, but I doubt, that this would cause some to reconsider using such reckless rhetoric in the future.
This guy is spinning. The controversy wasn't that Obama was speaking. The controversy was that he was getting an honorary degree. This guy is very well aware of the spin he is using.
I did not compare rhab to Tiller. I merely used him as an example to demonstrate how I might respond in kind to how she described me! I would never compare anyone to Tiller, unless they were doing the same things he was, then it would be appropriate. As far as him personally, he has stated over and over that he performs elective late-term abortions right up until the moment of birth. Truly pro-life people wouldn't assault women or dr's.They no more represent pro-lifers than Hitler does your side
I used to live in Kansas, and I know for a fact that Kansas law permits abortions only up to the point of viability, where the fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb without extraordinary medical intervention. His own website states that, consistent with the law where he practices, he only performs abortions up until the point of viability.
And I should certainly think that a man who banned abortions in Germany doesn't represent my side.
It shows the disingenuousness of the birthers & it's sickening to see the amount of falsehoods/outright lies told to underpin their arguments. At the very least, they seek to muddle the argument enough to confuse people. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who states there's no indication for IDX has disqualified him- or herself from further discussion. First learn, then talk. A 'debate' with them is like Stephen Hawking debating String Theory with Britney Spears.
I stated this concerning the health of the MOTHER. Nully rightly pointed out cases of possible cancer. Every other "indication" amounts to the "mental health" of the mother, in other words, elective...
"Every other 'indication' amounts to the "mental health" of the mother, in other words, elective... "
EVERY other? And you say that based on your long experience as a gynecologist, do you?
Here's the list of maternal problems that can arise due to pregnancy *excluding* mental health problems, and only speaking generally about the affected area:
...neurologic diseases, malignancies, GI tract disorders, adrenal disorders, pituitary disorders, thromboembolic disorders, hematologic disorders, hypertensive disorders, and diabetes mellitus.
Now, that's quite a list, and every one of those categories, save diabetes mellitus which is a specific condition, represents dozens to hundreds of specific pregnancy-related diseases. Pregnancy is probably the worst battering that a woman's body will take in the course of her lifetime.
Physiologically, pregnancy is a nightmare scenario. Most women's bodies can cope, fortunately, otherwise we'd have all died out eons ago. But in the case of many women, pregnancy is a danger. To write every other condition off as "elective" just shows a fundamental indifference to the lives of women. You claimed that no "true" so-called pro-life person would ever attack an abortion doctor or a woman seeking an abortion, but are you not doing the same thing when you try to paper over...
...the fact that pregnancy represents a health hazard for many women? This is a kind of ignorance that can kill.
Secondly, you also show your contempt for women (and all people with mental diseases in general) by claiming that abortion for reasons of mental health is equivalent to "elective" abortion. Right now, the FDA has not approved ANY psychotropic drug for use during pregnancy, although some may be used with minimal risk, so for many women it's a choice of get an abortion or go untreated.
Geez Louise! Talk about "papering over"! Not to mention nafariously reading into my comments malice that you truly have to twist in order to come up with things like "contempt for women" or "attacking women". Come on, you're better than that! You moved the goal posts by stating that basically no one knows when viability begins when I cited 100's of cases in which the esteemed Dr. Tiller performed abortions after the unborn were viable. Tiiler's own reports and witnesses have stated...cont'd
...he has and does do 9 month abortions. The man is also currently on trial for having an illegal financial relationship with a doctor that regularly gives "medical" approval for these late-term abortions, citing that a woman carrying a viable fetus could only have her life saved from "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" only through a late-term abortion. This is an example of the underhanded way that the abortion industry (money making) operates... cont'd...
Actual "choices" are not presented to prospective mothers and some are pressured into obtaining them by being told that it would solve their problems. Of all the conditions you listed, can you name one that having a partial birth abortion would eradicate? Of course pregnancy is tough on women. Once one becomes pregnant, however, there is another life involved. There are truly situations where it comes down to one life or another, but the percentage is minute compared to the number of abortions
"Of all the conditions you listed, can you name one that having a partial birth abortion would eradicate?"
Yes. All of them. That's the point of obtaining a therapeutic abortion in the first place.
"Once one becomes pregnant, however, there is another life involved."
Not according to the law, and not according to many biologists. In fact, the only real consistent way to define a zygote as a "life" would be to admit that the egg is also a "life", in which case the claim is still false.
Law or no law, I say again, if allowed to a human being would result. The only difference is time and location. Tiller's own former employees testify that he performs these abortions at the last possible moment, as well as former patients of his. Political witch hunts might be what you call them due to your perspective, but the facts are that this man is so far out on the fringe of the "pro-choice" spectrum that his services are sought out from all over because of his hideous "specialty".
And that's still false. A human being is no more guaranteed to arise from a zygote any more than a standard coin is guaranteed to always come up heads. 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, most before the embryo has had time to implant.
"At the last possible moment" doesn't mean the last moments before birth, but to the last possible moment permitted by Kansas law. Also, you have not provided evidence that Tiller HIMSELF has said this, as you originally claimed.
If the "last moment" means that permitted by Kansas law, then he did say it in his own reports! Not only that, he stated in his own reports that the majority of his late term abortions were performed AFTER viability was established...Against Kansas law, according to you...
"If the 'last moment' means that permitted by Kansas law, then he did say it in his own reports!"
But if "last moment" means the last moment permitted by Kansas law, then it's not the same thing as the moment immediately before birth, as you claimed.
How would that work? "Oh, honey, my water broke! Call Dr. Tiller!"
Where is your source for these mythical reports and how do you know that these abortions would be deemed illegal under Kansas law? If it could have been tried, Kline would have.
Now you are REALLY splitting hairs.! It was YOU that said he did these at the last moment, according to Kansas law. I presented evidence that he went beyond the law, and now we're talking about water breaking. Maybe it was a poor choice of words, but the fact remains he performs abortions into the last month. If there is so much dispute as to when life begins, why is it not possible to error on the side of the unborn? As we go along here, Nully, you are growing colder and more venial.
...on earth *shouldn't* his services be sought out? He is a late-term abortion specialist. Complaining the number of late-term abortions he performs is like complaining that a thoracic surgeon does too many lung operations.
And it was a political witch hunt regardless of my perspective. Phill Kline did his best to turn Kansas into Calvin's Geneva, and charged Tiller due to his opposition to abortion, not because of any merit in the criminal charges (which even a Kansas jury could see through).
"Complaining the number of late-term abortions he performs is like complaining that a thoracic surgeon does too many lung operations." Damn, this is just cold hearted. These are abortions on unborn children that are recognizable as such. If a women was truly to be given a choice, she should be shown an ultrasound picture of her unborn baby, as well as explainations of other options. The abortion industry is a business, and like any other they need a means to keep the cash flowing, no matter what
Well, because you say it, doesn't make it true. Sorry, but that's not how it works. Foot stomping, frothing, & teeth gnashing are not substitutes for a sound scientific education.
What are your answers to anencephaly, placenta praevia, eclampsia, & ectopic pregnancies? And I want something based on science.
Sooo, "according to MANY biologists", which means that there are MANY others that do not hold this view. A zygote is a living organism that normally results in a person!! Comeon Nully! Are you actually so callously indifferent to the lives of the unborn that you have to resort to such lengths in your attempt to defend this procedure that kills living, potential people?! Even if I granted you every single case you raised in the course of our talks, the percentage is MINUTE!!
Who cares if the percentage is what you call "minute"? Personally, I wouldn't call 13% of abortions in 2005 being performed for therapeutic reasons minute, but I'm not arguing over percentages here. Any percentage is sufficient to demolish your original claim that there was no medical indication for the D&E procedure.
Secondly, of course biologists disagree over when human life begins. But the very existence of such a controversy means that you cannot make facile claims like the one...
...you made above about a new life arising at the first moment of pregnancy.
There are at least seven views of when human life begins: the metabolic, in which the egg and sperm are as alive as the zygote they form; the genetic, a new life is created at fertilization; the embryologic, when a new life arises when the fetus no longer capable of twinning (12 days); the neurologic, which is the counterpart of the definition of death as loss of the cerebral EEG pattern. The fetus acquires...
...this at roughly the 27th week. There's the technological view, in which the fetus is defined as a human life when it is capable of existing separately from the womb. This is the basis for the law in many states, with or without caveats (with in Kansas' case). The immunological view and the integrated physiology view both place human life at birth: the former when the fetus acquires the immunological distinction of self from nonself, and the latter when the fetus is physiologically independent
Apparently you care. Again, according to the research arm of Planned Parenthood, the figure is 8%. I granted you that I was wrong about there being NO indication for partial birth abortion. That leaves at least 92% of all abortions that are elective. Sorry, but if an amoeba is considered alive, then by any standard a zygote ought to be too. You are a brilliant person Nully, but it just kills me that you have absolutely zero concern for the unborn. This belies a coldness that baffles me as a Dad.
"I granted you that I was wrong about there being NO indication for partial birth abortion."
That's the sentence I wanted to hear. I find it positive that you can concede that much. Now please compare IDX to non-IDE & tell me how the "partial birth abortion" ban doesn't endanger these women. Remember, the ban is only on IDX.
That's a sentence that you apparently missed a while back. My point is that the number of medically indicated partial birth abortions is so miniscule as to be nearly statistically insignificant when compared to the overall numbers. Can you cirte for me how many women have died or suffered due to a partial birth abortion ban? Abortions have successfully "endangered" the lives of over 50,000,000 potential human beings in the last 36 years alone...
Yes, I missed it. I have been very busy the past days getting ready to host some quests starting tomorrow.
The issue that got me involved with you was your statement concerning IDX. That seems to be resolved. I'll dig up the statistics for you & send them when I get a chance. As it stands I'm not going to be finished before they get here.
No, according to the Guttmacher Institute, the figure is 13% (citing Jones RK et al., Abortion in the United States: incidence and access to services, 2005, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2008, 40(1):616.). According to your suspect math, the figure is 8%. The two are not the same thing.
Then by any standard? A fetus fails the standard of having an independent physiology, which is a hurdle the amoeba passes easily. Also, even an amoeba is immunologically able to..
...distinguish itself from other organisms, and react accordingly. A fetus can't do that yet. So by two of the standards I listed, a fetus is not as alive as an amoeba.
The 'coldness' you perceive is entirely your own invention. You have to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you any way you can. If you can't do that on the merits of the argument, you resort to emotional appeals. I am unmoved by them, so I must be heartless, not because they fail as an argument and require that one already agree.
I was mistaken on one point. The 13% figure wasn't for therapeutic abortions, but "medical abortions" using a abortifacient drug. I apologize, but their term of art is quite confusing.
Also, since you've conceded the point I was arguing--that there are medical reasons for performing a D&E--there's no point in belaboring that.
All I will say on the issue of "elective abortion" is that I'm not prepared to deny rights to and second-guess women because they don't meet some arbitrary standard.
Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, believed abortion is a means of controlling the proliferationof "undesireables". On African-Americans and immigrants, "human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born". "We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population". I'm not against birth control, but here is what she said about it, "...to create a race of thoroughbreds." These are the roots of the abortion industry...
Quote mining is a tactic that anyone who has spent any time at all discussing evolution comes to recognize very quickly. Like ordinary mining, the "raw ore" of a quote must be "refined" to make the person say what they want it to say (or just created out of thin air).
For example, "We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population". Here you've neglected to include the other half of the quote, probably because...
...your source didn't bother to include it. It comes from a discussion of outreach to the Black community.
"The minister's work is also important, and also he should be trained, perhaps by the Federation, as to our ideals and the goal that we hope to reach. We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs."
Now, that puts the partial quote that your sources dishonestly fed...
But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Margaret Sanger was a raging racist and eugenicist. That wouldn't change my support for abortion on demand one iota. Should I denounce population genetics too because R.A. Fischer was seduced by eugenics?
Sanger was not the "root" of abortion in any case. Abortion goes back thousands of years. The wealth of Cyrene was made in silvium, an herbal abortifacient, for example. But if she were, and...
...she were all the terrible things the pro-birth crowd like to claim, that wouldn't make one bit of difference to why I think it's important for women to demand their right to exercise autonomy and self-determination, and why abortion is vital to maintaining those rights.
What you are doing is simply committing a genetic fallacy. Even if we granted that Sanger is as bad as you say she is, and the "root" of the "abortion industry" (she isn't), it still says absolutely nothing about abortion.
You moved the goalposts when you changed the issue from the very moment of birth to "viability" and from Tiller's own words to alleged 'reports' which--even if they exist--don't support your original claim.
Here is what you originally stated: "[Tiller] has stated over and over that he performs elective late-term abortions right up until the moment of birth."
There are three parts to this claim: that this has been stated by Tiller himself, that these abortions are elective, and that...
George Tiller is NOT currently on trial. He was charged with 19 misdemeanors thanks to a political witch hunt begun by Phill Kline, a profound embarrassment to Kansas who was finally turfed out in the 2006 election. He was ACQUITTED on all charges.
Damn. I heard on the news and borrowed a friend's laptop for this post. This is tragic on soo many fronts. My heart aches for his family and friends. This is precisely the type of thing that taints the noble cause and means of the pro-life movement. How the criminal that perpetrated this actually thinks this was justified is beyond me. I pray he gets caught quickly and justice is meated out soon after. He did it in church no less. I am speechless other than to say that I'm grieved...
I would also like to say that anyone that calls him or herself pro-lfe and equivocates even in the slightest while condemning this should share in the guilt of this cowardly act. You also will share in my and other's disgust for those seeking to find some reason "why he had it coming". I'm sure its coming. Let me say beforehand that you should just keep your mouths shut and examine your own hearts. This act came straight from the pit of hell...
Ummm, when he was alive I did. You may have figured out that he isnt doing anymore of them. I pray for an end to all abortions. The murder of this man was not the way to make that happen. Even to legislate them away wouldnt work. The best way is to convince people, on an individual basis, that there is a better "choice'...
It's a shame that you don't take suicide seriously. Otherwise, you wouldn't make such an unqualified statement. It illustrates all the more why we should leave these decisions to trained personel & the women involved. Not only do you fail as a hobby gynecologist, your stint as a hobby psychologist is equally pathetic.
I'm still curious though about your feelings on anencephaly. Care to finally give me an answer?
Tragic. Heartbreaking. This is one of situation that I would never second guess a women for abtaining an abortion. Suicide? Tragic. A good friend of mine actually committed suicide. You cannot tell me that I do not take it seriously. However, an abortion is not a valid treatment or a cure for it. The "trained personel" that operate in the abortion industry are human beings, just like me. They are employees of a business that needs a continuing flow of abortions to stay afloat. Goodnight now...
Disingenuousness is mischaracterizing then arrogantly belittling those whose opinions that differ from yours. As far as I'm concerned, rhab, you have done this sooo many times throughout these last few days that I can only conclude that this is intentional, therefore DISINGENUOUS!! I guess you disqualify yourself...
That's some really heavy reasoning there mixed in with a false definition of "disingenuous". Congratulations! Your answer is simply another variant of "I know you are, but what am I?", which is quite effective in grade school, but in a discussion among adults not so much.
That's all you could come up with after a few days? Allow me to give you a heart-felt & much deserved "whatever, dude".
Sorry if it went over your head, rhabby, but it is truly disingenuous to twist my words over and over again, put words in my mouth that I never said, then belittle me. Weak, full of red herrings, ad hominem. Disingenuous...Whatever! Right back at you!!
Yikes!! Remedy for suicide?! That WAS funny! Even a not-even-an-amateur gynocologist gets tired after a while. Excuse me while I wipe the egg off of my face...I think you get the point I was trying to make though. Anyhow, my most esteemed adversaries, I must now retire from this very stimulating dialogue. I will be going out of town for the next 9 or 10 days and additionally I feel that I have basically said all that one of my admittedly limited expertise can. Priviledgedto have conversed w/you
I'll have a guest starting tonight & because I haven't seen her in a long time, I won't be online so much. I'm sure we'll meet up some other time. Have fun.
What all due respect, Nully, Tiller's own published info documents that, in the period between 1/99 and 12/99, Tiller performed 574 abortions after 22 weeks and 302 of these were performed after the point of viability.
There is no predetermined "point of viability". Some embryos are inviable from the outset or become inviable during development.
Secondly, "viability" under Kansas state law refers to when a fetus is capable of survival without extraordinary medical intervention, and this too must be evaluated on a case by case basis.
In any case, you have not shown that Tiller has STATED, as you claimed, that he will perform "elective late-term abortions right up until the moment of birth". Please do so.
It's you that wants an utopia as you continually try to spin & rationalize the deliberate killing of innocents that is inherent to war. I guess in your world only "terrorist" kill innocents but when "soliders" do it, it's unintentional. Poor logic. Deliberate abortions have been and will always be around. I'm not saying abortion is good but as your put "sometimes it is necessary". Liberal?? It seems you like to draw lines where they don't exist, just like in your argument.
An Unborn child has its own blood supply, and is a separate entity from the mother. If it were not the case, the mothers immune system would reject fetus.
A woman does have a choice of what to do with her body, but a fetus is not her body. It is totally depends on the mother for life, but so does a new born baby, the only difference is location.
I am pro womans choice (the choice not to get pregnant). That right ends when she decides to get on her back.
Its own blood supply? The mother supplies the blood, and this maternal blood supply provides the fetus with oxygen and carries away the wastes. The fetus isn't independent, physiologically, of the mother at all, and it's only at birth that the fetus has an independent alimentary, circulatory, and respiratory system.
A baby does not totally depend on the mother for life. Anyone can feed and change a baby: the father, the first cousin, a stranger, etc. The dependence of a fetus is more..
...immediate and intimate: it is completely dependent on the mother's physiology. This is a difference of kind, not "location".
Secondly, many fetuses are rejected by the mother's immune system. This is one of the conditions which requires a therapeutic abortion. It isn't the ordinary way things happen in part because the mother's immune system is generally suppressed during pregnancy.
What is the point of this obsession with women having sex? It seems as if you're trying to punish them for it
The Baby has its own blood but obviously, you don't understand that. A fetus carries on its own metabolic processes. How do you think it grows? Yes, a fetus uses the mothers Uterus for nutrients, the same way it uses the breast after birth, but the fetus is separate. IT IS SEPARATE. If it wasn't the mothers immune system would KILL the fetus because it is not 'self'. Once you internalize that concept, you may view abortions under a different light.
There is a difference between blood and blood supply. The phrase "blood supply" implies that you're discussing the circulatory system, which, until birth is not independent of the mother
Secondly, that the embryo carries on metabolic processes is irrelevant to the fact that it is not physiologically independent of the mother.
The fetus is not separate. I already addressed the claim that the mother's immune system would kill the fetus. It doesn't, in part, because the mother's immune..
...system is generally suppressed, thanks in part to the early production of corticotrophin-releasing hormone, and there may be further localized immune suppression around the placenta.
There are, however, cases when the mother's body does have an immune reaction to the embryo, e.g. pre-eclampsia. Also, multiple miscarriages are often caused by immune responses to the fetus.
And in any case, your idea that something completely separate from but implanted in the body is not going to...
cause an immune response is just false. If you think otherwise, stick a thorn in your flesh, leave it there, and just wait for the inflammation.
Lastly, even if I believed that the embryo was somehow "separate" from the mother, despite the fact that this violates everything we know of embryonic development, I still wouldn't change my opinion that one has no right to force a woman to be an incubator for an embryo, and to try would violate her autonomy and right to self-determination.
Explain to me how a fetus has no rights to autonomy and self determination and how when an infant is born why that changes anything. Shouldn't mom be able to kill her children if she doesn't want them?
That's easy: at birth, the infant is no longer part of the mother's body. It makes no sense to apply individual rights to an entity that is not yet individuated.
So even if a baby is totally viable and capable of feeling pain, as long as its inside the mother, its ok to kill it? I am just trying to get an idea of how warped your ideas of reality are.
It's not a baby. "Baby" conjures up the idea of a physiologically independent infant, which is exactly the mistake you've been making above.
The rock bottom moment at which a fetus *could* feel pain is not before 23-25 wks, when the thalamus becomes connected to the frontal cortex. All those "silent scream" claims at anything before that are mere instances of pareidolia. But there's more involved with pain than mere reflexive nociception. It also requires awareness, an ability to..
...associate a certain signal in the brain with an unpleasant memory and how one feels about it. The fetus cannot conjure up any of these associations, and will not be able to do so until it is born. So basically you're asking me if what isn't true was true, then.... There's no point to answering such a question, but I will anyway: as long as it is part of the mother's body, then it is the mother's right to undergo a medical procedure. Full stop.
...but pregnancy causes very real pain to the woman. With pregnancy comes a range of conditions like morning sickness, back pain, generalized immune suppression, etc., and we're not even into the serious medical problems that can arise. Why should any woman endure all that when she doesn't want to just because you want her to be an embryo incubator?
Lastly, this is a ethics question, not a question about reality, unless you assume that moral obligations are somehow encoded in the real world.
It's not about the fetus, anyway. It's about controlling & punishing women. If I had a dollar for everytime a birther said something about keeping the legs closed or painted with the broadest of brushes these women as "sluts", I'd have a house in Malibu.
Love the term "birther". The truly pro'life would never denegrate women in such a way. YouTube brings out the worst in people from both sides of any argument. If I had a dollar for every rotten thing I have been called, I too would own that house Malibu and many others to house crisis pregnancy centers. (Some of which I actively support financially and with volunteering my time.) I have tremendous compassion for women that face this hard choice. None for those fathers that contribute nothing...
True birthers never denigrate women? Yeah, that was really compassionate & respectful of them to seek to force a 9 year old rape victim to carry her twins to term. She would've literally been torn apart at the seams. Surely God was smiling!
CPCs are trojan horses for proselytizing & are veritable cornucopias of false information, as you so aptly demonstrate at every turn. They fight requirements to employ certified health care specialists, using, instead, guidelines from the Bronze Age.
A TRULY pro-life person would not denegrate women is what I said. Their are idiots that call themselves pro-life, but have hate in their hearts. Women have been inundated with info on the "choice" option. What many are not aware of are the alternatives to abortion. Adoption, or even dealing with the child and raising him or her, when presented in a loving way, is simply the natural option. If carrying your child to term is "Bronze Age", then we need more wisdom from those days...cont'd...
I have yet to encounter a woman that was contemplating an abortion, decided on life, and regretted her choice. I have met with MANY that have had abortions and come to hate themselves for doing so. Now you are bringing God into the mix. You are therefore entering an area which you have demonstrated your ignorance, and, based on your comments, hostility.Prayer is man's way of getting right with God's plan, The CPC I have worked the most with does have doctor's and nurses on staff 24 hours a day.
I guess to compare all pro-lifers to the people in Brazil that were against that poor child aborting her fetuses is about the equivalent to me comparing you to the infamous George Tiller, the Kansas abortionist that routinely, and, gladly, aborts babies right up until the moment of their birth. Would that be a fair comparison? There are extremes on both sides, and grey areas. You seem to actually be committed to abortion at any time, for any reason. This is sad...
You can compare me to anything you want. Your opinion is of no consequence to my life.
What you don't get is that I'm not 'committed to abortion'. I'm committed to a woman's autonomy in making personal choices. If she chooses to carry to term, more power to her. If she chooses abortion, I want her to get the best possible medical care, untainted by dogma. I want her to be safe & I want her to be left alone by the frothing drones, who seek to impose their Bronze Age mythology on everyone else.
You wreek of arrogance and hatred towards those who disagree with you. Women (in the US anyway) get the finest medical care on the planet. Nobody is imposing anything on anyone. Given the fact that abortion is now a part of the fabric of our society it will always be available somewhere, somehow. This would be true even if Roe v Wade were somehow overturned. The constitutional thing to do would be to allow individual states to determine whether or not to allow them per the 10th Amendment
Neither does you comparing me to rabid robots (I guess that is what you meant by "frothing drones") or believers in middle age mythology. I am in great company, and it is lame ad hominem like these you use toward me and "my ilk" that reassures me that I am on the right side of this issue, as these are the tactics of someone that is engaed in a debate without ammunition. You must be young, or simply inmature. Again, you could learn something from Nullifidian. Knowledge does not equal wisdom...
To clarify: frothing drones are the people who gather at the entrance to Planned Parenthood (for example) & harass women as their exercise their right to autonomy. Sure, there is anger on both sides. I don't deny it. It angers me, when someone makes the unqualified claim that there's "absolutely" no indication for IDX (I know damn well there is) & are willing to accept a perforated uterus to make the point (not to say that's you specifically).
One other thing. I didn't mean to compare you to George "Killer" Tiller. I was merely showing a response on par to the hatred you have displayed toward pro-lifers. That said, I'm done with you. Over and out. I hope you get over yourself! Have a nice life!!!
The only thing I have against birthers is their compulsion to impose their views on everyone else. This is the distinction that is consistently flown over. I don't hate you as a person. Under certain circumstances, I'd probably even get along with you quite well (played in a band myself for awhile). I just energetically disagree with you POV on abortion, as the world is not as cut & dry as you wish it to be.
Why should anyone who isn't predisposed to agree with you care if you compare them to George Tiller?
My view is that he's a medical specialist, and attacks on him, as on any provider of this medical procedure, are simply designed to eliminate the possibility of safe abortions provided in a clinical context.
He's been shot at for being a specialist. I guess that "pro-life" only goes so far. I've also volunteered as a clinic escort because the "pro-life" don't shrink from assaulting women either
Rhabby...Too bad you cannot help but to resort to the common practice of arrogant youtubespeak when dealing with those that differ in opinion. You deem yourself superior to those that differ, then belittle them as functioning on only a "brain stem". Real nice. You know, there were some exceedingly brilliant scientists working for the Third Reich too. They only killed 6 million. The abortion holocaust has killed over 50 million and counting, in the US alone...
Perhaps you should reconsider your stance before posting, if you're so thin-skinned. I'm guessing you're not a medical expert & your claim that "There is no, zero, zip, medically indicated reasonfor a PARTIAL BIRTH abortion" is as unqualified as the claim that the moon is made of green cheese. The difference being that your "expertise" endangers women's lives. I'm not sorry for not playing nice with you. As for your Godwin slip, abortions didn't start with Roe v. Wade. They've always been here.
No thin-skin here. It was you that said I function solely with a brain stem, a comment dripping with arrogance and condescension. Never claim expertise, either. The act of receiving a partial birth abortion endangers women's lives for more that any condition that can conceivably "warrant" one. The breech birth required in a partial-birth abortion is much more dangerous for women than a normal birth. Ask any obstetrician. I never mentioned Roe v Wade. BTW, 50% of abortions kill baby women.
You also left out part of my quote...I said, "...concerning the mother". Your colleague Nullifidian raised one rare occurrance, one that accounts for such a small percentage of partial birth abortions as to be statistically insignificant. The overwhelming response given by abortionists as to what is the "health issue" that caused them to seek an abortion is depression. Not exactly life-threatening.
Nullifidian is a person that is capable of actually capable of agreeing to disagree, agreeably. Rare on YouTube indeed. We may never see I to eye on this topic, but Nully is always gracious.You could learn something from him or her, rhabby.
Nullifidian is his own person. When I read your comments & apply them to reality, I see that you are, albeit unwittingly, in support of hurting or even killing women & I see no reason to be nice. You see, you & your ilk propagate a policy with actual detrimental consequences for real people in the real world.
You don't support abortion? Don't have one. But leave the choice to the individual. I sincerely hope you & your partner never face that choice, but maybe you'd then reconsider.
One person missing in your equation. The unborn one. "Misanthropy"?! Oh please! "My ilk" and I are trying to help the most defenseless and innocent among us. Even if every single mother experiencing the "depression" mentioned by abortionists was suicidal, why does the unborn deserve the death penalty? All of the mental gymnastics in the world simply doesn't change the fact that a fully formed human being results when allowed to. All of the condesceding comments by the "Illuminati" wont either.
"The overwhelming response given by abortionists as to what is the "health issue" that caused them to seek an abortion is depression. Not exactly life-threatening."
Well , let's see here; the number one cause of suicide is depression. Suicide is the 7th leading cause of death in the U.S., before senility, diabetes, & embolism. Every 15 minutes, someone in the U.S. commits suicide.
Yeah, the numbers are supporting you here.
Pssst...your misanthropy is showing. You'd better cover it up!
The left wing did the same thing when Bush was in charge. Both sides our idiots.
gcord21 6 months ago
Duh! The whole question turned into garbage. Notre Dame is a Catholic University and these people were demonstrating for a very Catholic issue. One of the people arrested was a Catholic Priest. Notre Dame = Our Lady. It is owned by the Catholic diocese there. This is so pathetic because it is Catholic liberal against Catholic Traditional Who do you think is winning?
alrchaplain 1 year ago
lol you dumb whiny moron ekajeht. people are starving to death under tyrants, and you call revolution terrorism. open your eyes and pull your head out of your ass.
Rblotnicky 1 year ago
proof even republicans can like a good dead baby joke. lol
chakra25king 1 year ago
I wonder how much Christians would like people protesting outside their church with a bloody manger scene.
urantivirus 1 year ago
@ekajeht lol.so killing an innocent unborn child is wrong but killing an innocent muslim is fine.nice thinking there.and i think i was cenk who said this, when you ejaculate do you cryogenically store your sperm or do you MURDER it?because sperm is alive incase you didnt know.and BTW when we breathe we kill millions of microscopic bacteria which is floating around in the air so you do kill SOMETHING all the time.and 1 more thing why should a mother not get an abortion because of YOUR beliefs?
thetrueturnip 1 year ago
@thetrueturnip innocent muslim??
What is this thing you call an -innocent muslim?
There is no such a thing.
ekajeht 1 year ago
@ekajeht funny that is what the terrorists say about Americans.
fireflygirl246 1 year ago
@fireflygirl246 Then let the war against the vermin ragheads begin!
ekajeht 1 year ago
@ekajeht ok then why don't you and the terrorists go somewhere far away form me and the innocent Muslim civilian and blow each other up. Then maybe the peaceful innocent Muslim civilians that just want to liver there lives and the peaceful innocent westerners that just wants to live their lives, can do just that.
its people like you that needs to get slew.
fireflygirl246 1 year ago
@fireflygirl246 There are no innocent muslims.
Is there any record anywhere in history where a muslim condemmend the acts of terrorist muslims?
----NO-----
Even if a muslim isn't a terrorist ,,,, they support the acts of their terrorist brothers.
ekajeht 1 year ago
@ekajeht I'm sorry your just flat out wrong, I know Muslims personally that speak out against the acts of Muslim terrorists all the time. I have seen Muslim officials do the same thing. while I wish more people would speak out about it, people like you put the innocent Muslims on defense when you say they should all die. it becomes an us vs them issue so they will side with their them. You are a part of the problem not part of the solution.
fireflygirl246 1 year ago
@fireflygirl246 Well one of those good muslims that was a police officer training with our troops JUST TURNED AND OPENED FIRE ON OUR TROOPS KILLING 6 OF OUR TROOPS!!!
Point out those GOOD muslims to me!
Better yet tell the dead troopers families about how good they are!
Wake up and join the real world some day!
ekajeht 1 year ago
@ekajeht That was one person doing a horrible thing, not all Muslims doing a horrible thing. Timothy McVay, a christian, kill many innocent men, women and children, dose that me all Christians are evil?? should we round up all the Christians and kill them because of what Tim did.
Your hate towards all Muslims it the greatest recruitment tool the terrorist have. They point at people like you and say "look they want to kill us, just for being Muslim". way to help the terrorist dick head.
fireflygirl246 1 year ago
@fireflygirl246 Who arrested and tried McVay?
Chances are it was christians.
Where are all your good muslims putting a stop to the muslim terrorists?
They condone terrorism!
ekajeht 1 year ago
@ekajeht While I agree there are more then a few Muslim states that condone terrorism that is not the fault of all Muslims. While I would agree that some Muslims should die for there crimes and because they are dangerous to others, that is not the fault of all Muslims.
I think there ideas are backward and mid-evil & I think that they brain wash there children into believing something so radically they will kill and die for it. I don't hate the peaceful Muslim that minds there own business.
fireflygirl246 1 year ago
@ekajeht
Your just a blithering idiot. To take the actions of a few and condemn an entire creed with them is like saying all men are rapists cause some men rape women. your no smarter than the dumbest femi-nazi and I hope you know that. you dumbass.
Rblotnicky 1 year ago
@Rblotnicky A few? You would be lucky if you could find a FEW muslims that were not condoning terrorism!
ekajeht 1 year ago
@ekajeht YOu know, not every Muslim knows each other....
TriaMaxwell 1 year ago
@crackerz99 actually in islam if a women is having life threatning complications, or is raped she can have an abortion.
thetrueturnip 1 year ago
@thetrueturnip really before or after her husband puts her on trial for adultery and have her executed. I know there are a lot of Muslims that see this sort of thing as evil like most of us in the west, but it is still going on so lets not portend that Islam is progressive, like Christianity it is very much regressive and in my opinion should be looked down upon for that alone, just like Christianity and radical conservatives.
fireflygirl246 1 year ago
its ok michael savage and sean hannity get alot more rattings than these guys, the young turks videos proves my point
nesquick3415 1 year ago
It's a Catholic institution, and Obama's policy goes against the universal Magisterium. It is a disgrace that he was allowed to speak and receive his "degree," and Notre Dame should be removed from the list of approved Catholic universities in the United States for allowing such obstinate heresy
Nothwithstanding 1 year ago
To the people saying Notre Dame shouldn't allow pro-choice speakers: this was anything but political. It's a tradition at Notre Dame, dating back to Eisenhower I believe, that the President gives the commencement speech the year they are inaugurated. There have been other presidents that have spoken at ND that have been pro choice and no ones has said a thing. Why now?
hockeyfan7125 1 year ago
SOOO PRO LIFE=FAKE BABY FAKE BLOOD YOU SEE and PRO CHOICE=REAL BABY REAL BLOOD YOU DONT SEE How sick can the pro life people can be.
kurt9399 1 year ago
@AmericanFenian
You yourself are disregarding official church teaching on homosexuality- which states that homosexuality in itself is not wrong. The church condemns ACTS of homosexuality, but it also condemns prejudice against people's sexual orientation.
LtBeefy91 1 year ago
@LtBeefy91 i have been trying to make this point for ages im glad some people see it that way
misticspear 1 year ago
Fake babies covered in fake blood is in bad taste.
HOW ABOUT REAL DEAD BABIES COVERED IN BLOOD RIPPED FROM THE WOMB????
Does that seem in bad taste to you? YOU DUMB -ASS BABY MURDERER!!!
ekajeht 1 year ago
@ekajeht take a fucking valium, you psychopath. if i had a choice between being aborted or being your kid; hurry up and suck me out in a hot mess.
holdenbane 1 year ago
@holdenbane You can murder the innocent unborn baby but you don't have the backbone to see what you murdered?
Your a spinless evil monster!
ekajeht 1 year ago
@ekajeht and you are insane. i have never killed a baby, calm your shit.
holdenbane 1 year ago
@ekajeht well you paid for bullets that killed civilians of iraq, afghanistan and over 150 other countries around the world. so how do you feel about that?
crackerz99 1 year ago
@crackerz99 says="you paid for bullets that killed .....iraq,afghanistan....
how do you feel about that?"
----------------
It makes me mad as hell knowing my money went for bullets.
It could have been better spent if they used it for building and using nuclear bombs on the vermin rag-heads!
ekajeht 1 year ago
@ekajeht so every single muslim is vermin? its strange you have such disregard for the life of over 1.5 billion people, yet you want to stop abortion, you are backwards, man.
crackerz99 1 year ago
@crackerz99
1.5 billion people??????
You don't consider the life of a innocent unborn child worth saving?
But you worry about muslims!
Muslims are not people, they are not human!
The best way to describe them is VERMIN!
ekajeht 1 year ago
@ekajeht muslims are the same as christians and jews, believe the same phony shit, like the tooth fairy, santa clause. you people are unreasonable, what if a woman is raped by her father, would you provide her with an abortion? and btw, having such disregard for more than 1.5 billion people makes you worse than dirt, and you do not deserve to live on the same planet as the rest of us.
crackerz99 1 year ago
@crackerz99 says="You don't deserve to live on the same earth as the rest of us."
-----
I agree,,, NOW GET OF MY EARTH!!!!!
ekajeht 1 year ago
@ekajeht
First off; abortions are done to fetuses, which aren't even alive yet to begin with as the heart has yet to start beating. I'm no doctor but this is covered in high school health class, so anyone with a basic understanding of how biology works would see the holes in said argument.
Secondly, you can't judge an ntire ethnic group like that. True, the religion is flawed, but so is Christianity. And I happen to be christian myself.
NUTCASE71733 1 year ago
He can speak there, yet for them to give Obama an award.. is foolish. It shows verification of his views and basically throws away our 2000 year tradition and love of lord Jesus Christ.
RockyBalboa211 2 years ago
Don't i love Obama and his Pro-Choice ways =]
Annoying ass Right- Wingers >.>
musiclovinggurl123 2 years ago
no thanks..we should have some places on private property where we can be free from protesters. And we have to look at bloody dolls?
jusguyz 2 years ago
It is incredible to me that there are still (or ever were, for that matter) people who deny the Shoah. It is a fact better documented and verifyable than most historical events we merely accept out of hand.
The question for deniers is, Who will speak for you when the enemies of humanity come for you? Who, after your long silence, will be left to denfend you?
PhoenixLament87 2 years ago
Calling an unborn child a fetus is accurate, but deceptive. "Fetus" refers to a stage of development in mammalian animals (including humans), nothing more. It has nothing to do with the humanity of the unborn child. "Fetus" simple leads people unfamiliar with basic biology to believe that the unborn child is somehow less human than it is.
PhoenixLament87 2 years ago 2
unfortunatly for you, it does. it doesn't mean you agree with them, but they agree with you.
lydstyrke 2 years ago
wow. this fatass loves to point everything toward "right wing" how about a few people who were prolife. doesnt mean they stand for us.
Lordteren3 2 years ago
Hmm...I have to say I despise those dead fetus posters people carry around, but then again, they have the right to do so. We have to protect all forms of free speech.
fireemblem1992 2 years ago
there wasn't a violation of free speech here- Notre Dame kicked them out- they're a private university, and they are entitle to your own property- for example, Megaspiderman, I don't have the right to walk into your house and protest the Iraq War all day- march around your kitchen with picket signs etc.
I have freedom of speech- but not the freedom to take away the freedoms of others- and one of which is the right to property and ownership.
You need to read up on your constitutional law.
LtBeefy91 2 years ago 18
@LtBeefy91 Notre Dame shouldn't excepts money from the Catholic Church and then allow pro-choice and pro-homo to take stage is wrong.
AmericanFenian 1 year ago
@LtBeefy91 no free speech in college, we get it
XSC3 5 months ago
Comment removed
MegaSpiderMan 2 years ago
@MegaSpiderMan
Freedom of speech my ass
Bush kept so many people in jail just because they talked trash about him
TheEuphony69 2 years ago
Its about proving a point Mr. Young Turk
soicuw 2 years ago
Would you prefer a "fresh dead fetus" IDIOT!
mucast 2 years ago
NOT RIGHT WING YOU FUCKING NUTTERS
AntifaOwnsThisBitch 2 years ago
Red and Blue, Left and Right, Republican and Democrat are really different sides to the same coin.
They work for the same people!
Why cant you understand this?!
CrosshairsNWO 2 years ago
This is why TYT is non biased! Awesome clip.
IndependentEsse 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
" I didn't know we had a ban on pro-choice protestors at Catholic Universities." This "young turk" is a "young jerk." Appeasing the left.
Christ in Urine is art and then
when someone complains they are "close minded>"???
WHAT --?? IT could be "palestinians" with fake blood on their kids--
YOung Turk is handsome but offers no solution BTW Protestors are not common at ND -
I am an alum and I saw 7 or so during my time there. ( Most were from what you would call the "left.")
hawkandpanther 2 years ago
So protesters are sick if they push baby cariages around with fake babies covered in fake blood but its called art when someone makes a mural of the Virgin Mary out of dung in NYC? yea, makes alot of sence. there you liberals go again with your hipocracy.
jennabenna6241 2 years ago
lol, out of dung? that is disgusting. what fucking idiot did that?
Fenix471 2 years ago
Hey I am for people protesting, but the garbage that came out of A. Keyes and R Terry's mouths was utterly appalling, The anti-abortion movement is led by psychotic crackpots. It's not like Obama legalized abortion.
BTW, can someone criticize something without coming up with the right wing equivalent? They didn't make that picture nor had anything to do with it. You sound like petty like Laura Ingraham.
MongoloidBabyUSA 2 years ago
i guess not it's like nature when an animal is injured BAM a lion goes in for the kill kinda like right wingers
peniswizard39 2 years ago
Its not hypocrisy because THEY DONT FUCKING BELIEVE IN YOUR BULLSHIT RELIGION. Its only hypocritical by YOUR standards, if YOU were to do that.
FuriousTealeaf 2 years ago 9
jenna: Tell me about it not that the tools here will listen.
wormer105 2 years ago
Yes reed should be mutilated....but the pro life movt is not all bad...they are defending life.
sandroeleven 2 years ago
oh that...i rem now.sorry. they werent forced but if they wanted to cont working they were urged to.
sandroeleven 2 years ago
I agree partially.. I hate reed. But please there are no forced abortions.....
sandroeleven 2 years ago
Oh come on...stop the lies.
sandroeleven 2 years ago
"Media outlets are reporting that late-term abortion doctor George Tiller has been shot and killed at his church in Wichita, Kan."
Yet another victory for the "pro-life" side, eh?
I hold the 'moderate' pro-birth crowd equally responsible. When you make this man the centerpiece of your demonology, repeatedly denounce him as a murderer or worse, this is what you reap for your troubles. I would hope, but I doubt, that this would cause some to reconsider using such reckless rhetoric in the future.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
hahah an abortion doc going to church...lol
kmcl11 2 years ago
This guy is spinning. The controversy wasn't that Obama was speaking. The controversy was that he was getting an honorary degree. This guy is very well aware of the spin he is using.
MGR1900 2 years ago
I did not compare rhab to Tiller. I merely used him as an example to demonstrate how I might respond in kind to how she described me! I would never compare anyone to Tiller, unless they were doing the same things he was, then it would be appropriate. As far as him personally, he has stated over and over that he performs elective late-term abortions right up until the moment of birth. Truly pro-life people wouldn't assault women or dr's.They no more represent pro-lifers than Hitler does your side
jimistreets 2 years ago
I don't believe you when you claim he said this.
I used to live in Kansas, and I know for a fact that Kansas law permits abortions only up to the point of viability, where the fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb without extraordinary medical intervention. His own website states that, consistent with the law where he practices, he only performs abortions up until the point of viability.
And I should certainly think that a man who banned abortions in Germany doesn't represent my side.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
Greetings!
It shows the disingenuousness of the birthers & it's sickening to see the amount of falsehoods/outright lies told to underpin their arguments. At the very least, they seek to muddle the argument enough to confuse people. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who states there's no indication for IDX has disqualified him- or herself from further discussion. First learn, then talk. A 'debate' with them is like Stephen Hawking debating String Theory with Britney Spears.
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
I stated this concerning the health of the MOTHER. Nully rightly pointed out cases of possible cancer. Every other "indication" amounts to the "mental health" of the mother, in other words, elective...
jimistreets 2 years ago
"Every other 'indication' amounts to the "mental health" of the mother, in other words, elective... "
EVERY other? And you say that based on your long experience as a gynecologist, do you?
Here's the list of maternal problems that can arise due to pregnancy *excluding* mental health problems, and only speaking generally about the affected area:
Cardiovascular diseases, renal diseases, thyroid and parathyroid diseases, hepatic diseases, pulmonary diseases, infectious diseases,...
(Continued)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
...neurologic diseases, malignancies, GI tract disorders, adrenal disorders, pituitary disorders, thromboembolic disorders, hematologic disorders, hypertensive disorders, and diabetes mellitus.
Now, that's quite a list, and every one of those categories, save diabetes mellitus which is a specific condition, represents dozens to hundreds of specific pregnancy-related diseases. Pregnancy is probably the worst battering that a woman's body will take in the course of her lifetime.
(Continued)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
Physiologically, pregnancy is a nightmare scenario. Most women's bodies can cope, fortunately, otherwise we'd have all died out eons ago. But in the case of many women, pregnancy is a danger. To write every other condition off as "elective" just shows a fundamental indifference to the lives of women. You claimed that no "true" so-called pro-life person would ever attack an abortion doctor or a woman seeking an abortion, but are you not doing the same thing when you try to paper over...
(Cont.)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
...the fact that pregnancy represents a health hazard for many women? This is a kind of ignorance that can kill.
Secondly, you also show your contempt for women (and all people with mental diseases in general) by claiming that abortion for reasons of mental health is equivalent to "elective" abortion. Right now, the FDA has not approved ANY psychotropic drug for use during pregnancy, although some may be used with minimal risk, so for many women it's a choice of get an abortion or go untreated.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
Geez Louise! Talk about "papering over"! Not to mention nafariously reading into my comments malice that you truly have to twist in order to come up with things like "contempt for women" or "attacking women". Come on, you're better than that! You moved the goal posts by stating that basically no one knows when viability begins when I cited 100's of cases in which the esteemed Dr. Tiller performed abortions after the unborn were viable. Tiiler's own reports and witnesses have stated...cont'd
jimistreets 2 years ago
...he has and does do 9 month abortions. The man is also currently on trial for having an illegal financial relationship with a doctor that regularly gives "medical" approval for these late-term abortions, citing that a woman carrying a viable fetus could only have her life saved from "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" only through a late-term abortion. This is an example of the underhanded way that the abortion industry (money making) operates... cont'd...
jimistreets 2 years ago
Actual "choices" are not presented to prospective mothers and some are pressured into obtaining them by being told that it would solve their problems. Of all the conditions you listed, can you name one that having a partial birth abortion would eradicate? Of course pregnancy is tough on women. Once one becomes pregnant, however, there is another life involved. There are truly situations where it comes down to one life or another, but the percentage is minute compared to the number of abortions
jimistreets 2 years ago
"Of all the conditions you listed, can you name one that having a partial birth abortion would eradicate?"
Yes. All of them. That's the point of obtaining a therapeutic abortion in the first place.
"Once one becomes pregnant, however, there is another life involved."
Not according to the law, and not according to many biologists. In fact, the only real consistent way to define a zygote as a "life" would be to admit that the egg is also a "life", in which case the claim is still false.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
Law or no law, I say again, if allowed to a human being would result. The only difference is time and location. Tiller's own former employees testify that he performs these abortions at the last possible moment, as well as former patients of his. Political witch hunts might be what you call them due to your perspective, but the facts are that this man is so far out on the fringe of the "pro-choice" spectrum that his services are sought out from all over because of his hideous "specialty".
jimistreets 2 years ago
And that's still false. A human being is no more guaranteed to arise from a zygote any more than a standard coin is guaranteed to always come up heads. 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, most before the embryo has had time to implant.
"At the last possible moment" doesn't mean the last moments before birth, but to the last possible moment permitted by Kansas law. Also, you have not provided evidence that Tiller HIMSELF has said this, as you originally claimed.
Also, why...
(Continued)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
If the "last moment" means that permitted by Kansas law, then he did say it in his own reports! Not only that, he stated in his own reports that the majority of his late term abortions were performed AFTER viability was established...Against Kansas law, according to you...
jimistreets 2 years ago
"If the 'last moment' means that permitted by Kansas law, then he did say it in his own reports!"
But if "last moment" means the last moment permitted by Kansas law, then it's not the same thing as the moment immediately before birth, as you claimed.
How would that work? "Oh, honey, my water broke! Call Dr. Tiller!"
Where is your source for these mythical reports and how do you know that these abortions would be deemed illegal under Kansas law? If it could have been tried, Kline would have.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
Now you are REALLY splitting hairs.! It was YOU that said he did these at the last moment, according to Kansas law. I presented evidence that he went beyond the law, and now we're talking about water breaking. Maybe it was a poor choice of words, but the fact remains he performs abortions into the last month. If there is so much dispute as to when life begins, why is it not possible to error on the side of the unborn? As we go along here, Nully, you are growing colder and more venial.
jimistreets 2 years ago
...on earth *shouldn't* his services be sought out? He is a late-term abortion specialist. Complaining the number of late-term abortions he performs is like complaining that a thoracic surgeon does too many lung operations.
And it was a political witch hunt regardless of my perspective. Phill Kline did his best to turn Kansas into Calvin's Geneva, and charged Tiller due to his opposition to abortion, not because of any merit in the criminal charges (which even a Kansas jury could see through).
Nullifidian 2 years ago
"Complaining the number of late-term abortions he performs is like complaining that a thoracic surgeon does too many lung operations." Damn, this is just cold hearted. These are abortions on unborn children that are recognizable as such. If a women was truly to be given a choice, she should be shown an ultrasound picture of her unborn baby, as well as explainations of other options. The abortion industry is a business, and like any other they need a means to keep the cash flowing, no matter what
jimistreets 2 years ago
Well, because you say it, doesn't make it true. Sorry, but that's not how it works. Foot stomping, frothing, & teeth gnashing are not substitutes for a sound scientific education.
What are your answers to anencephaly, placenta praevia, eclampsia, & ectopic pregnancies? And I want something based on science.
Still waiting...
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
Sooo, "according to MANY biologists", which means that there are MANY others that do not hold this view. A zygote is a living organism that normally results in a person!! Comeon Nully! Are you actually so callously indifferent to the lives of the unborn that you have to resort to such lengths in your attempt to defend this procedure that kills living, potential people?! Even if I granted you every single case you raised in the course of our talks, the percentage is MINUTE!!
jimistreets 2 years ago
Who cares if the percentage is what you call "minute"? Personally, I wouldn't call 13% of abortions in 2005 being performed for therapeutic reasons minute, but I'm not arguing over percentages here. Any percentage is sufficient to demolish your original claim that there was no medical indication for the D&E procedure.
Secondly, of course biologists disagree over when human life begins. But the very existence of such a controversy means that you cannot make facile claims like the one...
(Cont.)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
...you made above about a new life arising at the first moment of pregnancy.
There are at least seven views of when human life begins: the metabolic, in which the egg and sperm are as alive as the zygote they form; the genetic, a new life is created at fertilization; the embryologic, when a new life arises when the fetus no longer capable of twinning (12 days); the neurologic, which is the counterpart of the definition of death as loss of the cerebral EEG pattern. The fetus acquires...
(Cont.)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
...this at roughly the 27th week. There's the technological view, in which the fetus is defined as a human life when it is capable of existing separately from the womb. This is the basis for the law in many states, with or without caveats (with in Kansas' case). The immunological view and the integrated physiology view both place human life at birth: the former when the fetus acquires the immunological distinction of self from nonself, and the latter when the fetus is physiologically independent
Nullifidian 2 years ago
Apparently you care. Again, according to the research arm of Planned Parenthood, the figure is 8%. I granted you that I was wrong about there being NO indication for partial birth abortion. That leaves at least 92% of all abortions that are elective. Sorry, but if an amoeba is considered alive, then by any standard a zygote ought to be too. You are a brilliant person Nully, but it just kills me that you have absolutely zero concern for the unborn. This belies a coldness that baffles me as a Dad.
jimistreets 2 years ago
"I granted you that I was wrong about there being NO indication for partial birth abortion."
That's the sentence I wanted to hear. I find it positive that you can concede that much. Now please compare IDX to non-IDE & tell me how the "partial birth abortion" ban doesn't endanger these women. Remember, the ban is only on IDX.
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
That's a sentence that you apparently missed a while back. My point is that the number of medically indicated partial birth abortions is so miniscule as to be nearly statistically insignificant when compared to the overall numbers. Can you cirte for me how many women have died or suffered due to a partial birth abortion ban? Abortions have successfully "endangered" the lives of over 50,000,000 potential human beings in the last 36 years alone...
jimistreets 2 years ago
Yes, I missed it. I have been very busy the past days getting ready to host some quests starting tomorrow.
The issue that got me involved with you was your statement concerning IDX. That seems to be resolved. I'll dig up the statistics for you & send them when I get a chance. As it stands I'm not going to be finished before they get here.
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
No, according to the Guttmacher Institute, the figure is 13% (citing Jones RK et al., Abortion in the United States: incidence and access to services, 2005, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2008, 40(1):616.). According to your suspect math, the figure is 8%. The two are not the same thing.
Then by any standard? A fetus fails the standard of having an independent physiology, which is a hurdle the amoeba passes easily. Also, even an amoeba is immunologically able to..
(Continued)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
...distinguish itself from other organisms, and react accordingly. A fetus can't do that yet. So by two of the standards I listed, a fetus is not as alive as an amoeba.
The 'coldness' you perceive is entirely your own invention. You have to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you any way you can. If you can't do that on the merits of the argument, you resort to emotional appeals. I am unmoved by them, so I must be heartless, not because they fail as an argument and require that one already agree.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
I was mistaken on one point. The 13% figure wasn't for therapeutic abortions, but "medical abortions" using a abortifacient drug. I apologize, but their term of art is quite confusing.
Also, since you've conceded the point I was arguing--that there are medical reasons for performing a D&E--there's no point in belaboring that.
All I will say on the issue of "elective abortion" is that I'm not prepared to deny rights to and second-guess women because they don't meet some arbitrary standard.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, believed abortion is a means of controlling the proliferationof "undesireables". On African-Americans and immigrants, "human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born". "We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population". I'm not against birth control, but here is what she said about it, "...to create a race of thoroughbreds." These are the roots of the abortion industry...
jimistreets 2 years ago
I see you've been toiling in the quote mines.
Quote mining is a tactic that anyone who has spent any time at all discussing evolution comes to recognize very quickly. Like ordinary mining, the "raw ore" of a quote must be "refined" to make the person say what they want it to say (or just created out of thin air).
For example, "We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population". Here you've neglected to include the other half of the quote, probably because...
Cont.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
...your source didn't bother to include it. It comes from a discussion of outreach to the Black community.
"The minister's work is also important, and also he should be trained, perhaps by the Federation, as to our ideals and the goal that we hope to reach. We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs."
Now, that puts the partial quote that your sources dishonestly fed...
(Cont.)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
...you in a completely different light.
But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Margaret Sanger was a raging racist and eugenicist. That wouldn't change my support for abortion on demand one iota. Should I denounce population genetics too because R.A. Fischer was seduced by eugenics?
Sanger was not the "root" of abortion in any case. Abortion goes back thousands of years. The wealth of Cyrene was made in silvium, an herbal abortifacient, for example. But if she were, and...
(Cont.)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
...she were all the terrible things the pro-birth crowd like to claim, that wouldn't make one bit of difference to why I think it's important for women to demand their right to exercise autonomy and self-determination, and why abortion is vital to maintaining those rights.
What you are doing is simply committing a genetic fallacy. Even if we granted that Sanger is as bad as you say she is, and the "root" of the "abortion industry" (she isn't), it still says absolutely nothing about abortion.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
You moved the goalposts when you changed the issue from the very moment of birth to "viability" and from Tiller's own words to alleged 'reports' which--even if they exist--don't support your original claim.
Here is what you originally stated: "[Tiller] has stated over and over that he performs elective late-term abortions right up until the moment of birth."
There are three parts to this claim: that this has been stated by Tiller himself, that these abortions are elective, and that...
(Cont.)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
...they occur right up to the moment of birth.
George Tiller is NOT currently on trial. He was charged with 19 misdemeanors thanks to a political witch hunt begun by Phill Kline, a profound embarrassment to Kansas who was finally turfed out in the 2006 election. He was ACQUITTED on all charges.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
You don't have to worry about Dr. Tiller anymore. A "pro-lifer" just gunned him down on his way to church.
What a proud moment for the movement!
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
Damn. I heard on the news and borrowed a friend's laptop for this post. This is tragic on soo many fronts. My heart aches for his family and friends. This is precisely the type of thing that taints the noble cause and means of the pro-life movement. How the criminal that perpetrated this actually thinks this was justified is beyond me. I pray he gets caught quickly and justice is meated out soon after. He did it in church no less. I am speechless other than to say that I'm grieved...
jimistreets 2 years ago
I would also like to say that anyone that calls him or herself pro-lfe and equivocates even in the slightest while condemning this should share in the guilt of this cowardly act. You also will share in my and other's disgust for those seeking to find some reason "why he had it coming". I'm sure its coming. Let me say beforehand that you should just keep your mouths shut and examine your own hearts. This act came straight from the pit of hell...
jimistreets 2 years ago
You pray he gets caught...Do you pray that he would stop LTA's????
kmcl11 2 years ago
Ummm, when he was alive I did. You may have figured out that he isnt doing anymore of them. I pray for an end to all abortions. The murder of this man was not the way to make that happen. Even to legislate them away wouldnt work. The best way is to convince people, on an individual basis, that there is a better "choice'...
jimistreets 2 years ago
Comment removed
kmcl11 2 years ago
It's a shame that you don't take suicide seriously. Otherwise, you wouldn't make such an unqualified statement. It illustrates all the more why we should leave these decisions to trained personel & the women involved. Not only do you fail as a hobby gynecologist, your stint as a hobby psychologist is equally pathetic.
I'm still curious though about your feelings on anencephaly. Care to finally give me an answer?
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
Tragic. Heartbreaking. This is one of situation that I would never second guess a women for abtaining an abortion. Suicide? Tragic. A good friend of mine actually committed suicide. You cannot tell me that I do not take it seriously. However, an abortion is not a valid treatment or a cure for it. The "trained personel" that operate in the abortion industry are human beings, just like me. They are employees of a business that needs a continuing flow of abortions to stay afloat. Goodnight now...
jimistreets 2 years ago
Disingenuousness is mischaracterizing then arrogantly belittling those whose opinions that differ from yours. As far as I'm concerned, rhab, you have done this sooo many times throughout these last few days that I can only conclude that this is intentional, therefore DISINGENUOUS!! I guess you disqualify yourself...
jimistreets 2 years ago
That's some really heavy reasoning there mixed in with a false definition of "disingenuous". Congratulations! Your answer is simply another variant of "I know you are, but what am I?", which is quite effective in grade school, but in a discussion among adults not so much.
That's all you could come up with after a few days? Allow me to give you a heart-felt & much deserved "whatever, dude".
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
Sorry if it went over your head, rhabby, but it is truly disingenuous to twist my words over and over again, put words in my mouth that I never said, then belittle me. Weak, full of red herrings, ad hominem. Disingenuous...Whatever! Right back at you!!
jimistreets 2 years ago
You should try comedy, because that response really tickled me!
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
Yikes!! Remedy for suicide?! That WAS funny! Even a not-even-an-amateur gynocologist gets tired after a while. Excuse me while I wipe the egg off of my face...I think you get the point I was trying to make though. Anyhow, my most esteemed adversaries, I must now retire from this very stimulating dialogue. I will be going out of town for the next 9 or 10 days and additionally I feel that I have basically said all that one of my admittedly limited expertise can. Priviledgedto have conversed w/you
jimistreets 2 years ago
I'll have a guest starting tonight & because I haven't seen her in a long time, I won't be online so much. I'm sure we'll meet up some other time. Have fun.
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
What all due respect, Nully, Tiller's own published info documents that, in the period between 1/99 and 12/99, Tiller performed 574 abortions after 22 weeks and 302 of these were performed after the point of viability.
jimistreets 2 years ago
There is no predetermined "point of viability". Some embryos are inviable from the outset or become inviable during development.
Secondly, "viability" under Kansas state law refers to when a fetus is capable of survival without extraordinary medical intervention, and this too must be evaluated on a case by case basis.
In any case, you have not shown that Tiller has STATED, as you claimed, that he will perform "elective late-term abortions right up until the moment of birth". Please do so.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
C'mon Chris,
It's you that wants an utopia as you continually try to spin & rationalize the deliberate killing of innocents that is inherent to war. I guess in your world only "terrorist" kill innocents but when "soliders" do it, it's unintentional. Poor logic. Deliberate abortions have been and will always be around. I'm not saying abortion is good but as your put "sometimes it is necessary". Liberal?? It seems you like to draw lines where they don't exist, just like in your argument.
QED
JudahKhan 2 years ago
Obama and his family should leave the White House!
utubefavorsdems 2 years ago
Cenk is a fucking tool.
SoCaliBrowns 2 years ago
An Unborn child has its own blood supply, and is a separate entity from the mother. If it were not the case, the mothers immune system would reject fetus.
A woman does have a choice of what to do with her body, but a fetus is not her body. It is totally depends on the mother for life, but so does a new born baby, the only difference is location.
I am pro womans choice (the choice not to get pregnant). That right ends when she decides to get on her back.
racevws 2 years ago
Its own blood supply? The mother supplies the blood, and this maternal blood supply provides the fetus with oxygen and carries away the wastes. The fetus isn't independent, physiologically, of the mother at all, and it's only at birth that the fetus has an independent alimentary, circulatory, and respiratory system.
A baby does not totally depend on the mother for life. Anyone can feed and change a baby: the father, the first cousin, a stranger, etc. The dependence of a fetus is more..
(Cont.)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
...immediate and intimate: it is completely dependent on the mother's physiology. This is a difference of kind, not "location".
Secondly, many fetuses are rejected by the mother's immune system. This is one of the conditions which requires a therapeutic abortion. It isn't the ordinary way things happen in part because the mother's immune system is generally suppressed during pregnancy.
What is the point of this obsession with women having sex? It seems as if you're trying to punish them for it
Nullifidian 2 years ago
The Baby has its own blood but obviously, you don't understand that. A fetus carries on its own metabolic processes. How do you think it grows? Yes, a fetus uses the mothers Uterus for nutrients, the same way it uses the breast after birth, but the fetus is separate. IT IS SEPARATE. If it wasn't the mothers immune system would KILL the fetus because it is not 'self'. Once you internalize that concept, you may view abortions under a different light.
racevws 2 years ago
There is a difference between blood and blood supply. The phrase "blood supply" implies that you're discussing the circulatory system, which, until birth is not independent of the mother
Secondly, that the embryo carries on metabolic processes is irrelevant to the fact that it is not physiologically independent of the mother.
The fetus is not separate. I already addressed the claim that the mother's immune system would kill the fetus. It doesn't, in part, because the mother's immune..
(Cont.)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
...system is generally suppressed, thanks in part to the early production of corticotrophin-releasing hormone, and there may be further localized immune suppression around the placenta.
There are, however, cases when the mother's body does have an immune reaction to the embryo, e.g. pre-eclampsia. Also, multiple miscarriages are often caused by immune responses to the fetus.
And in any case, your idea that something completely separate from but implanted in the body is not going to...
(Cont.)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
cause an immune response is just false. If you think otherwise, stick a thorn in your flesh, leave it there, and just wait for the inflammation.
Lastly, even if I believed that the embryo was somehow "separate" from the mother, despite the fact that this violates everything we know of embryonic development, I still wouldn't change my opinion that one has no right to force a woman to be an incubator for an embryo, and to try would violate her autonomy and right to self-determination.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
Explain to me how a fetus has no rights to autonomy and self determination and how when an infant is born why that changes anything. Shouldn't mom be able to kill her children if she doesn't want them?
racevws 2 years ago
That's easy: at birth, the infant is no longer part of the mother's body. It makes no sense to apply individual rights to an entity that is not yet individuated.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
So even if a baby is totally viable and capable of feeling pain, as long as its inside the mother, its ok to kill it? I am just trying to get an idea of how warped your ideas of reality are.
racevws 2 years ago
It's not a baby. "Baby" conjures up the idea of a physiologically independent infant, which is exactly the mistake you've been making above.
The rock bottom moment at which a fetus *could* feel pain is not before 23-25 wks, when the thalamus becomes connected to the frontal cortex. All those "silent scream" claims at anything before that are mere instances of pareidolia. But there's more involved with pain than mere reflexive nociception. It also requires awareness, an ability to..
(Continued)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
...associate a certain signal in the brain with an unpleasant memory and how one feels about it. The fetus cannot conjure up any of these associations, and will not be able to do so until it is born. So basically you're asking me if what isn't true was true, then.... There's no point to answering such a question, but I will anyway: as long as it is part of the mother's body, then it is the mother's right to undergo a medical procedure. Full stop.
You babble about hypothetical 'pain'...
(Cont.)
Nullifidian 2 years ago
...but pregnancy causes very real pain to the woman. With pregnancy comes a range of conditions like morning sickness, back pain, generalized immune suppression, etc., and we're not even into the serious medical problems that can arise. Why should any woman endure all that when she doesn't want to just because you want her to be an embryo incubator?
Lastly, this is a ethics question, not a question about reality, unless you assume that moral obligations are somehow encoded in the real world.
Nullifidian 2 years ago
Yes, dying can certainly ruin your day!
It's not about the fetus, anyway. It's about controlling & punishing women. If I had a dollar for everytime a birther said something about keeping the legs closed or painted with the broadest of brushes these women as "sluts", I'd have a house in Malibu.
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
Love the term "birther". The truly pro'life would never denegrate women in such a way. YouTube brings out the worst in people from both sides of any argument. If I had a dollar for every rotten thing I have been called, I too would own that house Malibu and many others to house crisis pregnancy centers. (Some of which I actively support financially and with volunteering my time.) I have tremendous compassion for women that face this hard choice. None for those fathers that contribute nothing...
jimistreets 2 years ago
True birthers never denigrate women? Yeah, that was really compassionate & respectful of them to seek to force a 9 year old rape victim to carry her twins to term. She would've literally been torn apart at the seams. Surely God was smiling!
CPCs are trojan horses for proselytizing & are veritable cornucopias of false information, as you so aptly demonstrate at every turn. They fight requirements to employ certified health care specialists, using, instead, guidelines from the Bronze Age.
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
A TRULY pro-life person would not denegrate women is what I said. Their are idiots that call themselves pro-life, but have hate in their hearts. Women have been inundated with info on the "choice" option. What many are not aware of are the alternatives to abortion. Adoption, or even dealing with the child and raising him or her, when presented in a loving way, is simply the natural option. If carrying your child to term is "Bronze Age", then we need more wisdom from those days...cont'd...
jimistreets 2 years ago
I have yet to encounter a woman that was contemplating an abortion, decided on life, and regretted her choice. I have met with MANY that have had abortions and come to hate themselves for doing so. Now you are bringing God into the mix. You are therefore entering an area which you have demonstrated your ignorance, and, based on your comments, hostility.Prayer is man's way of getting right with God's plan, The CPC I have worked the most with does have doctor's and nurses on staff 24 hours a day.
jimistreets 2 years ago
I guess to compare all pro-lifers to the people in Brazil that were against that poor child aborting her fetuses is about the equivalent to me comparing you to the infamous George Tiller, the Kansas abortionist that routinely, and, gladly, aborts babies right up until the moment of their birth. Would that be a fair comparison? There are extremes on both sides, and grey areas. You seem to actually be committed to abortion at any time, for any reason. This is sad...
jimistreets 2 years ago
You can compare me to anything you want. Your opinion is of no consequence to my life.
What you don't get is that I'm not 'committed to abortion'. I'm committed to a woman's autonomy in making personal choices. If she chooses to carry to term, more power to her. If she chooses abortion, I want her to get the best possible medical care, untainted by dogma. I want her to be safe & I want her to be left alone by the frothing drones, who seek to impose their Bronze Age mythology on everyone else.
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
You wreek of arrogance and hatred towards those who disagree with you. Women (in the US anyway) get the finest medical care on the planet. Nobody is imposing anything on anyone. Given the fact that abortion is now a part of the fabric of our society it will always be available somewhere, somehow. This would be true even if Roe v Wade were somehow overturned. The constitutional thing to do would be to allow individual states to determine whether or not to allow them per the 10th Amendment
jimistreets 2 years ago
Neither does you comparing me to rabid robots (I guess that is what you meant by "frothing drones") or believers in middle age mythology. I am in great company, and it is lame ad hominem like these you use toward me and "my ilk" that reassures me that I am on the right side of this issue, as these are the tactics of someone that is engaed in a debate without ammunition. You must be young, or simply inmature. Again, you could learn something from Nullifidian. Knowledge does not equal wisdom...
jimistreets 2 years ago
To clarify: frothing drones are the people who gather at the entrance to Planned Parenthood (for example) & harass women as their exercise their right to autonomy. Sure, there is anger on both sides. I don't deny it. It angers me, when someone makes the unqualified claim that there's "absolutely" no indication for IDX (I know damn well there is) & are willing to accept a perforated uterus to make the point (not to say that's you specifically).
Ignorance also does not equal wisdom.
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
One other thing. I didn't mean to compare you to George "Killer" Tiller. I was merely showing a response on par to the hatred you have displayed toward pro-lifers. That said, I'm done with you. Over and out. I hope you get over yourself! Have a nice life!!!
jimistreets 2 years ago
The only thing I have against birthers is their compulsion to impose their views on everyone else. This is the distinction that is consistently flown over. I don't hate you as a person. Under certain circumstances, I'd probably even get along with you quite well (played in a band myself for awhile). I just energetically disagree with you POV on abortion, as the world is not as cut & dry as you wish it to be.
That said, have a nice life yourself.
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
Why should anyone who isn't predisposed to agree with you care if you compare them to George Tiller?
My view is that he's a medical specialist, and attacks on him, as on any provider of this medical procedure, are simply designed to eliminate the possibility of safe abortions provided in a clinical context.
He's been shot at for being a specialist. I guess that "pro-life" only goes so far. I've also volunteered as a clinic escort because the "pro-life" don't shrink from assaulting women either
Nullifidian 2 years ago
Comment removed
jimistreets 2 years ago
Rhabby...Too bad you cannot help but to resort to the common practice of arrogant youtubespeak when dealing with those that differ in opinion. You deem yourself superior to those that differ, then belittle them as functioning on only a "brain stem". Real nice. You know, there were some exceedingly brilliant scientists working for the Third Reich too. They only killed 6 million. The abortion holocaust has killed over 50 million and counting, in the US alone...
jimistreets 2 years ago
Perhaps you should reconsider your stance before posting, if you're so thin-skinned. I'm guessing you're not a medical expert & your claim that "There is no, zero, zip, medically indicated reasonfor a PARTIAL BIRTH abortion" is as unqualified as the claim that the moon is made of green cheese. The difference being that your "expertise" endangers women's lives. I'm not sorry for not playing nice with you. As for your Godwin slip, abortions didn't start with Roe v. Wade. They've always been here.
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
No thin-skin here. It was you that said I function solely with a brain stem, a comment dripping with arrogance and condescension. Never claim expertise, either. The act of receiving a partial birth abortion endangers women's lives for more that any condition that can conceivably "warrant" one. The breech birth required in a partial-birth abortion is much more dangerous for women than a normal birth. Ask any obstetrician. I never mentioned Roe v Wade. BTW, 50% of abortions kill baby women.
jimistreets 2 years ago
You also left out part of my quote...I said, "...concerning the mother". Your colleague Nullifidian raised one rare occurrance, one that accounts for such a small percentage of partial birth abortions as to be statistically insignificant. The overwhelming response given by abortionists as to what is the "health issue" that caused them to seek an abortion is depression. Not exactly life-threatening.
jimistreets 2 years ago
Nullifidian is a person that is capable of actually capable of agreeing to disagree, agreeably. Rare on YouTube indeed. We may never see I to eye on this topic, but Nully is always gracious.You could learn something from him or her, rhabby.
jimistreets 2 years ago
Nullifidian is his own person. When I read your comments & apply them to reality, I see that you are, albeit unwittingly, in support of hurting or even killing women & I see no reason to be nice. You see, you & your ilk propagate a policy with actual detrimental consequences for real people in the real world.
You don't support abortion? Don't have one. But leave the choice to the individual. I sincerely hope you & your partner never face that choice, but maybe you'd then reconsider.
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago
One person missing in your equation. The unborn one. "Misanthropy"?! Oh please! "My ilk" and I are trying to help the most defenseless and innocent among us. Even if every single mother experiencing the "depression" mentioned by abortionists was suicidal, why does the unborn deserve the death penalty? All of the mental gymnastics in the world simply doesn't change the fact that a fully formed human being results when allowed to. All of the condesceding comments by the "Illuminati" wont either.
jimistreets 2 years ago
"The overwhelming response given by abortionists as to what is the "health issue" that caused them to seek an abortion is depression. Not exactly life-threatening."
Well , let's see here; the number one cause of suicide is depression. Suicide is the 7th leading cause of death in the U.S., before senility, diabetes, & embolism. Every 15 minutes, someone in the U.S. commits suicide.
Yeah, the numbers are supporting you here.
Pssst...your misanthropy is showing. You'd better cover it up!
rhabdoviridae 2 years ago