social justice really means what?Do you pull your talking points off right wing radio?Have you talked to the "majority of OWS" or are you passing your assumptions off as fact, living in a fantasy built on your own uneducated prejudice?Your political & social views are underdeveloped, immature and appear identity based, ie;"I am this, therefore I'll think that." Occupy has alot of people involved encompassing many different ideas.I'm anti-liberal & anti-capitalist.I find you all a disappointment
@XOmniverse If your an anarchist why are you using libertarian semantics? Those creeps use "alex jones" logic to reel people into deep right water. like your big gov liberal comment, or your poor people comment...liberal gov. and "deregulated capitalist" gov are just different shapes..and fuck yes it makes me sick to see zillionaires out doubling their income off anothers labor and hoarding wealth while others die for lack of food
@2Jakk Big government liberals and big government conservatives both exist in large numbers, but OWS is dominated by big government liberals, hence the choice in language.
What you're basically saying is "Why didn't you use language that didn't set off my defenses?" Why is managing your defenses my job?
@2Jakk have you ever been in a riot? its not the uneducated "the shoe pinches but I cant tell where" you seem to think it is, those old examples of destroying our own neighborhoods are actually rare for want of truth. As far as the occupiers not understanding economics thats way to big a generalization, i recently got involved with that cuz how the media makes them look (armchair critique is weak) and found an abundance of pseudo intellectual fuktards, understanding economics fine
@2Jakk I dont man, get off your computer and get out there, there a shitload of anarchists in occupy, I think it depends on which occupy where, and if theres not enough where your at get em' together. Its tedious, its a pain, you gotta work with asshole liberals and council communists and dumbass white middleclass wannabe intellectuals, and just plain idiots that might ask you what capitalism means...
@XOmniverse damn I just did like two me to my-selves, anyway, as ashanti alston says in this talk about the old panthers, they didnt have all the theories and analysis so they got out there and figured it out as they went, because it was just that bad....
Bloomberg news sued the illegal private federal reserve and won. They just released data on federal reserve lending in 08 and 09 at 7.7 trillion - 11x tarp. They lent this money to large US and foreign banks (including billions to Bank of Libya). This allowed large US banks to consolidate wealth and walk off with hundreds of billions in profit - at your expense.
google the bloomberg article yourself and read it (nov 27).
OWS is about ending the monetary usury and fabricated wars
Also, we do need a safety net. And tax dollars should go back to people, that's why we are entitled to it, hence the definition of the word? We should be developing avenues to strengthen people and their development instead of using over 50 percent of our budget for useless wars and crony contracts. We have over 1000 military bases around the world. Does empire come to mind, and that empires are bad? And that they all crumble from overstretch? Hmmm.
@XOmniverse Unless you can offer perfect liberty, which if you are a capitalist Adam Smith himself claims must be perfect, you have to build an infrastructure for people. That's what a society does when it cares about people over profit. What do all these businesses use to sell their products? Highways, trains, on and on. Educated minds? Your comment is way to simple and it's giving me the impression you have a very limited understanding of how the world truly operates.
@XOmniverse It's also known that these capitalists who understood liberty stated that without perfect liberty government would be the shadow cast over it by big business. Sound familiar? I personally find capitalism to be not such a good system for a myriad of reasons. It's very destructive to people who are wage slaves and the ecosystem. Anyone who thinks they aren't a slave is brainwashed or still living with mommy. The system is not free to those who understand what freedom is.
Also, more than any other protest group Occupy has thousands of people who were already activists involved in a myriad of causes. In the scope of protest it's an incredibly informed lot. Of course there are people who are going by feelings, but media? The media does nothing to promote such ideas. This is not the Tea Party. These folks are getting involved in legislation, and that includes me. Hoards of local proposals have been made. I think the lack of media reporting has you uninformed.
The longer the video continues the more incorrect it gets. I am willing to have a philosophical discussion. They are not specific? Oh my, its a good thing you aren't a reporter. Unprincipled people? Big government? The American version of Libertarianism is not Libertarianism at all, it's fascist. Libertarian Socialism is traditional anarchism which grew out of the enlightenment. It is based on horizontal democracy which all GA's are run by at Occupy.
The longer the video continues the more incorrect it gets. I am willing to have a philosophical discussion. They are not specific? Oh my, its a good thing you aren't a reporter. Unprincipled people? Big government? The American version of Libertarianism is not Libertarianism at all, it's fascist. Libertarian Socialism is traditional anarchism which grew out of the enlightenment. It is based on horizontal democracy which all GA's are run by at Occupy.
The longer the video continues the more incorrect it gets. I am willing to have a philosophical discussion. They are not specific? Oh my, its a good thing you aren't a reporter. Unprincipled people? Big government? The American version of Libertarianism is not Libertarianism at all, it's fascist. Libertarian Socialism is traditional anarchism which grew out of the enlightenment. It is based on horizontal democracy which all GA's are run by at Occupy.
The longer the video continues the more incorrect it gets. I am willing to have a philosophical discussion. They are not specific? Oh my, its a good thing you aren't a reporter. Unprincipled people? Big government? The American version of Libertarianism is not Libertarianism at all, it's fascist. Libertarian Socialism is traditional anarchism which grew out of the enlightenment. It is based on horizontal democracy which all GA's are run by at Occupy.
That's funny, I am on the grounds constantly and I have to say the person who did this video pretty much has no idea what he is talking about. There is social injustice and the funds were stolen. The majority have suffered from the actions of the very few. You also forget that the corporations are corrupting the state. Kind of important to know. I've met many people that absolutely understand what they want and are involved in legislation. You really need to go talk to someone at an occupy.
@NocheezRecords "You also forget that the corporations are corrupting the state." It's a mutual corruption, but no, I did not forget this. I even mentioned in the video that some people at OWS are aware of this.
You might find people that know a few facts about legislation/lobbying/etc., but how many have rock solid principles on human rights and justice that could withstand more than a couple of skeptical questions?
@XOmniverse I know there is collusion. It's other people who forget who the corruptors are (corporatons) and don't see the insanity of letting these tyrannical forces go unregulated. Regulations aren't bad, types of regulations can be. The world is run by business and the neo-liberal economic system has been nothing short of tyrannical globally. It's finally coming home to roost. We aren't neccessary now since the capitalists have found their new slave labor camp, China.
@XOmniverse Plus your question doesn't address your complete misrepresentation of OWS. You obviously are making judgements on something you have not studied or experienced. Kind of hard, probably arrogant and maybe even ignorant to tell me, who is involved, what OWS is all about - no? I have no problem with questions however. that would make sense, ask someone involved what it is about. It would at least be closer to the truth.
Due to the police state's crackdown & the onset of winter, OWS is, at this point, fragmented & leaderless. Whether it emerges in the spring with more direction & political acumen remains to be seen. However, it needs to do both. If it doesn't refine & solidify its disparate messages & desires, it will become irrelevant in the election year, which will result, predictably, in the continuation of the unacceptable status-quo. A leader needs to emerge to offer political goals that can be attained.
@pawnstar3 Remains to be seen. I think that the overall goal should be the significant reduction of government corruption through the election of like minded people to Congress & state legislatures. For a true alternative to the tyrannical status quo, a candidate like Ron Paul or Gary Johnson seems likely to emerge a leader that OWS can support in 2012. For the latest suggestions on how Congress must reform, see Peter Schweizer's new Book TV presentation: Throw Them All Out.
@BrotherWoody1 Ron Paul??? He wants to reduce the government's involvement in our capitalistic society. OWS protestors want to increase it. Paul is the last person they'd want to elect. They want to elect the most extremely left wing candidate they can find - so Obama would be their choice. Oh wait- all of this is happening under his watch - so looks like the protestors are screwed. They may actually have to try and find a job just like everyone else did.
@pawnstar3 Ron Paul has some good ideas about bringing the troops home, fixing the fed situation, but the rest is frightening. A keynote speaker for the John Birch society? Are you kidding me? That is one bad organization.
@NocheezRecords Don't be frightened of someone new & emphatically different. The GOP & the Dems aren't any longer credible & both are corrupt to the core. Ron Paul isn't corrupt & never has been. If you want to save the Constitution, so that it can be amended to suit the needs of the people, then it's going to take leaders like Paul or Nader to bring it about. Traditional party politics is over, the status quo is intolerable. What are you going to do? Vote for Romney? Obama?
@BrotherWoody1 - I don't care for republicans or democrats and in reality I don't think presidents can do much. The system is controlled. The problem with Ron Paul is I don't like some of his ideas. I mentioned the ones I agree with however, freeing up tyrannnical institutions is a horrible idea and I think socially he'd bring us back to the dark ages. Nadar on the other hand I really like. Nadar is a true hero, he's done incredible work throughout his life.
@NocheezRecords Too bad Nader isn't running. But Paul is. Bite the bullet. At least, he'll be better than anyone else in the race including O. Remember that RR tried to decrease the amount of govt. waste through the Grace commission. He didn't get very far. Paul may be stymied too but at least he's willing to give it a new try. Perfection is the enemy of good enough. There are no perfect choices but compared to the rest, Paul seems like the best choice for us in 2012.
@BrotherWoody1 Sorry, I just can't go with Paul, I think he is dangerous. Again I point out he was a keynote speaker for the John Birch society. I suggest we the people make the changes. You're an activist, you know what I am speaking on. It doesn't matter who is so much who is in when the whole country is pressuring the establishment. As far as Ronald Reagan he massively increased government, free'd up corporations, committed war crimes and more than tripled the debt.
@pawnstar3 Don't be too sure about what OWS wants to do. Gary Johnson, for one, would disagree with you. As the vid correctly points out, everyone seems to know what they're against but nobody seems to know exactly what they're for. OWS isn't solidified enough at this point to know what it wants to accomplish. Obviously, you don't want anyone who's going to upset your applecart, so you use the same stereotypes as the MSM to discredit them. You know very little about OWS or Ron Paul.
@BrotherWoody1 So let me get this straight – you can’t give an objective and I’m the one that doesn’t know what’s going on? Laughable. What they’re against is people actually succeeding since they aren’t succeeding in their own lives. It’s jealousy – plain and simple. Why aren’t people occupying Hollywood? How about Occupying Oprah Winfrey, right outside of her mansion? One real problem is colleges are flooded with people that don't belong there (hence the fighting for jobs upon graduation)
@pawnstar3 Typical rich guy guarding his treasures. Hollywood? Yea, look at SOPA. Looks like you're the jealous one: Satisfied with the status-quo with nothing to protest. Get with it, buddy, you're flying blind & are going to crash hard. Keep defending your defenseless govt & their cohorts, the military/industrial, congressional/banking complex. Your NWO isn't going to complete itself, thanks to folks like OWS. Be a patriot, be an American, wake up! OCCUPY!
@pawnstar3 Here's one that seems to be coming to the surface, wanting to rid corporate personhood and money in politics and reverse such things as Citizens United. There are two amendments now, The Sanders and Deutsch amendments. (along with hundreds of local proposals). We also want all the folks who lost/stole 40 percent of the worlds economy, who put bets on loans they knew were bad and made billions held accountable, investigated and put on trial. Sounds like a good start to me.
@NocheezRecords And what does protesting in front of buildings doing to change any of that? Protest in front of Congress. You're also talking about corruption - EVERYONE is against corruption. OWS isnt about that - it's about a bunch of crybabies who actually think the world is fair and can be made equal. It was that egalitarian thinking that got us in the mess in the first place. Colleges accept WAY too many people - it's not for everyone.
@pawnstar3 Obviously you know nothing about history. You also must not have read my other posts on what they are doing legislatively. Crybabies? The majority of the Occupy movement work. They know what should be obvious to everyone, that the system is not democratic. Really weird when people like you don't want people to express their constitutional rights to make positive change. Your statement is idiotic from the first word. It's not an argument, just yelling and screaming.
@NocheezRecords Yelling and screaming??? I'm writing down my points in a non-confrontational manner. The only people yelling and screaming are the OWS protestors and you. Nothing that comes out of my mouth is ever idiotic. Bye bye clown.
@pawnstar3 - I disagree, your whole post was nonsense and did zero to resemble a debate. It was ignorant and devisive and lacked historical facts. Read my posts and see that I offer ideas and actual facts from being in OWS. ou are really dumb enough to think this statement isn't devisive and is debate worthy: "You're also talking about corruption - EVERYONE is against corruption. OWS isnt about that - it's about a bunch of crybabies..."
@pawnstar3 Oh, and the idea of corruption and holding these folks accountable is probably the most mentioned thing on signs. The movement is very much about social and economic justice. So you aren't, then why not just admit you have no ethics? Funny, wanting democracy, fairness is negative to you, lol. Weird.
@BrotherWoody1 It's not just government corruption, it's the corporations who are doing the corrupting via their powerful lobby that average folks do not have. What you are saying is like arresting the low level street thug and letting the mob boss carry on. Ron Paul wants to free up corporations, deregulate them, phew. Talk about a bad idea, allowing a tyrannical institution that places profit over human life to police themselves. We need institutions beneficial to humans.
@NocheezRecords Yep & besides the incipient Zeitgeist movement there is nothing on the horizon other than the institutions that we already have. Perhaps you should stop looking to fulfill your utopian ideal & search for something that's achievable right now. Ron Paul isn't perfect but he's as close as we have to restoring liberty & justice. What's the choice? Obama & his assassinations, the NDAA, & the FEMA (concentration) camps? Both the GOP & the Dems are corrupt & kaput.
@BrotherWoody1 I hate that word utopian. It's like using the phrase conspiracy theory. It's not an argument. At one point freeing black slaves was thought of as utopian. I look at facts and how systems function. By the way the choice is the people changing the country via grass roots activism, direct action democracy. In fact historically it is the only way change for the majority has happened . I don't look to the government, we should force their hand. So get involved.
@NocheezRecords I agree with you & I'm involved at the local level as well as the national & international level. Humans all over the world are more involved now in self-determination than at any other time in history. The power hoarders, however, will not go away gently & it's the fight of our time: the individual against the collective or the much trumpeted, New World Order. Persist & Endure, Pax & Good Luck!
@pawnstar3 There are many, and that is the way it should be. Occupy has many folks who already have been active. I know this from personal experience. Friends of mine and other have been active for decades, some even from the 60's. Stop listening to mainstream media, they are completely distorting what this is.
@BrotherWoody1 It is supposed to be leaderless. that is not hurting the movement. It isn't going anywhere. Remember, just because you don't hear things doesn't mean stuff isn't going on. the mainstream media has been horrible about reporting. Makes sense though since they are owned by the very folks Occupy is speaking out against. This gives it a level of validity in my eyes.
@john42t I never said the movement was "fundamentally anarchist". The movemental reflects sundry political philosophies. OWS primarily seeks to address the corruption of our economic and political structures by the elites. I specifically referred to the PROCCESS by which the movement operates. It is decentralized, horizontal and participatory democratic. This was arrived at at the original planning meetings at, which anarchists were well represented. The influence is undeniable.
I don't know of a single person who thinks that the government will solve all problems (but I do know a lot of "conservatives" who think that's what all liberals think). I do know LOTS of folks who think that some problems need collective action to reach a solution or a workable compromise, which is what government is for.
I think it's hard not to realize that people are emotional and impulsive, and I'm sure there are good reasons for that (I'm thinking in terms of evolution, survival value of traits, etc)... But yes, the lack of critical thinking and hard reasoning is unnerving sometimes, especially in situations like these... On the other hand, I sometimes think its unfair to demand or even expect (not that you're doing it) any better from people in general, not everyone has the capacity to grasp the abstract...
It is extremely dismissive to claim that OWS are a bunch of "big government liberals" who want something handed to them. The way OWS approaches problems really does not reflect this. We ask people to assemble in their communities to arrive at solutions to greater problems using participatory democracy. We also help communities to address immediate issues using direct action. If OWS was about big govt, then it would simply do what mainstream politics says we should do and beg the govt for shit.
WOW talk about painting with a broad brush.... how simpleton of you. OWS has a spectrum of political points of view. How do you figured that all of them want the state to fix their problems? Sure there are people there that do. So why are you not out there showing them why that is a dumb idea. Instead you arm chair quarterback from your house. Vulgar libertarians always do this shit.
@XOmniverse government, like religion and society, are creations of man; created to satisfy a need. why did we create government? was it merely to offer protection? and even if this was so, doesn't the American ideal of goverment go beyond this basic role? the framers believed that the role of gov was to promote the general welfare.
@XOmniverse but what about the general will? gov is whatever the people say it is. if people vote for a free big mac every tuesday, what's wrong with that?
@CentristRevolution The government does not represent the general will, it represents a very small group of people. In general a mass would not vote against itself. Once seeing that everyone getting free big macs doesn't work it would reverse it's actions. The tiny minority have no problem rigging the system for themselves. By the way, big mac analogy, not very good. In a good economy almost all want to work and be productive. We forget many that do not are mentally ill.
@NocheezRecords We also must understand that everything is done in community and effects it. You can't shirk responsibility for the negatives society creates, we have to work together toward liberty and a healthy society. Unless you decide to go it all alone in the woods and use zero resources from the society. Fat chance the majority would do that. We are all guilty now. If you buy something from a big box store you support slave labor and other atrocities. Time to stand up.
"Big government liberals"? Seriously? That's why we've made it clear we are not involved in electoral politics or supporting political parties? Is it typical of big gov liberals to hold to Anarchist principals of organization? Nobody in OWS understands economics, huh? Really? How do you come up with these idiotic statements when it's evident that you don't know anything about the movement or the people involved.
@buddhagem In occupywallst dor org/about/, the middle paragraph clearly states that an agenda is to be fought for by democratic means. Does this not mean the state? What else is democratic? The agenda is there declared to be anti-rich, anti-bank and anti-corporation. Anti-state or anarchism is not mentioned. Do you argue that the site has been set up as a strawman by OWS detractors?
@john42t Arriving at decisions through consenus and the GA's comes directly from the anarchist tradition. In the Declation of the Occupation of NYC it clearly talks about "creat(ing) a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone." For anarchists, direct, participatory democracy is a truer conception of democracy in contrast to bourgeois parliamentarianism found across the globe. No State required
@LordEreinionXXV The link I wasn't referring to isn't using the words "anarchism" or "state" once. It only talks about the evils of rich people/banks/corporations. Shouldn't an anarchist movement at least name the state?
@LordEreinionXXV The link I wasn't referring to isn't using the words "anarchism" or "state" once. It only talks about the evils of rich people/banks/corporations. Shouldn't an anarchist movement at least name the state?
Why do you feel the need to consistently speak out on topics you don't understand? Have you bothered to read our statement of autonomy? Have you followed the movement in any meaningful way? There's nothing in this video that shows you have any idea what OWS is about. You seem to have no idea what's going on and yet you offer your perspective why?
@XOmniverse You have a long history of speaking out on matters you're clearly not informed on. How about a little respect for your audience? Why not do your homework before you speak? In regards to the nonsense about "Big Gov Liberals" I've seen plenty of those folks pull their hair out in frustration with this movement. Start with the statement of autonomy. Form your opinion based on facts not imagination
I had an argument with my cousin about OWS. I pretty much said the same thing you did. She retaliated saying that even though they might not have a unified direction it's still okay as long as the government knows the people are mad. I just thought that was a silly way to think about it.
Side note: You don't still live with Aaron right? Does anyone hop it the chat room anymore? I need to re-download Skype on my new comp, my old one broke.
@XOmniverse Ah ok well I will probably hop in from time to time from now on. Good to see new videos btw! Great to listen to while leveling in Star Wars hahaha
Your analogy of libertarianism sounds mutual to myself compiling countermeasures to these vicious cycles I've been in for the last 3 and a half months.
There is an article on JFK debt free notes on silverbearcafe site -
"Debt-Free United States Notes Were Once Issued Under JFK And The U.S. Government Still Has The Power To Issue Debt-Free Money"
If you read recent bloomberg report on 7.7 trillion bailout (11 x tarp) - banks were lending money to government and stole tens of billions off of you, your children and your family by this con. News flash -the constitutions dictates only the government can coin money, if so there would be no debt
@johnh173: " News flash -the constitutions dictates only the government can coin money, if so there would be no debt"
Hope the next President doesn't pull a Jackson and actually kill the Fed. Because once that goes, then the Mint'll be next......and soon, only private companies would be able to coin currency(P.S., many of the state banks in Jackson's day were privately owned, too).
I wouldn't really say its controlled opposition. If it were, there wouldn't be such a concerted attempt by the 'authorities' to shut it down. The Tea Party weren't getting hassled nearly as bad as the Occupy folks. Nobody from the Tea Party got their skull cracked open from a tear gas canister to the head, or pepper sprayed despite already being on their knees and cuffed up.
Well they weren't sitting around at home griping on the internet. They were gathering en masse in a public space, making lots of noise, making themselves as visible as they could. Many of them also carried guns and made veiled threats about 'watering the Tree of Liberty' and that they came in peace 'this time'. Most of the Occupy movement has been nonviolent, and chances are that the few examples of vandalism and violence were agent provocateurs.
@Alastrian83 Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. JFK "this time" refers to this quote if you don't belive it then that's your prerogative. My point still stands, there was no concert attempt to shut it down because of it's message but because it was occupying space where it is illegal to camp. Just to let you know it's not illegal to be armed in public. I bet that case of rape was just provocateurs hu?
@MirageScience: There is a far more significant criminal element amongst the Tea-Freakers but they didn't get beaten down on by the cops like the OWS people did.
@MirageScience Actually the majority of the time the Occupy'ers are being attacked by homeless and criminals already on the streets who commit crimes and who the police obviously cannot control. SO the police answer this by beating up Occupy'ers. Mull that over a bit. Because Occupy is in a public space it doesn't have the right to stop those folks from being there unless there is a crime committed and they do call the police.
@MirageScience Nope, Occupy is not a political party or backed by anyone except the individuals that enter it and all have equal say, horizontal democracy.
@MaikUniversum And if you can't afford a doctor, you don't set up a tent to pray to the government to pay for your doctor; you figure out a way to afford it.
@MiracleMile90 It's possible for someone to not be able to find a way and just be fucked, and that sucks, but the government will never be the solution to that problem. Time spent trying to solve that problem with government is time wasted.
well, the point you made at the end is really good. One of the most important things of being libertarian is a lack of [de]illusion that state can solve your problems.
social justice is an aplication of justice in a domain that is outside of the confines of the legal or the mainstream of political discourse. they're not necesarily in contradiction, but the legal and the political can be based on a particular order which might mean something inherently unjust in more basic social dynamics. so it becomes relevant when the established order of things becomes questionable from the perspective of a more robust conception of justice, that's my take, anyway.
@Pentazoid111 Essentially. They both clearly have their roots in the cultural right and cultural left respectively. Clearly both the left and the right are fed up, however, and I think this is why Ron Paul is doing so much better this time around than in 2008 (though I still doubt he will even get the nomination)
@Pentazoid111: My research suggests not, BUT there have been some pretty suspicious & shady figures who have tried to attach themselves to the movement.......Rocky Suhayda and Kalle Lasn to name a couple.
I agree with you about the ‘movement’ only indicating that a lot of people are upset, but if you stop being so pedantic it’s very easy to understand why the people there generally want change, namely financial inequality in society, which is a legitimate grievance. Expressing that grievance and appealing to democratic forces in a democracy isn’t a wholly flawed plan. What would a libertarian in this situation do if not appeal to something which cannot be overthrown?
@XOmniverse Sorry boss, but I think if you stop being so pedantic you can look beyond my pedantic comment and address, if you so choose, my previous comment in which there are points you can address, if you so choose, if you stop being so pedantic.
@Charlesdance Correct, it's not only not flawed but it is only one part of what we are doing. The problem with many folks is they can't grasp a leaderless democratic movement based on horizontal democracy. They've been so ensconced in this system it gives them an incredibly narrow view. I haven't heard any of this nonsense about getting stuff for free, but I have heard wanting accountability for the folks who destroyed the economy whether in corporations or government.
I like the point you bring up at the end of the video.
RPFS2008 1 month ago
social justice really means what?Do you pull your talking points off right wing radio?Have you talked to the "majority of OWS" or are you passing your assumptions off as fact, living in a fantasy built on your own uneducated prejudice?Your political & social views are underdeveloped, immature and appear identity based, ie;"I am this, therefore I'll think that." Occupy has alot of people involved encompassing many different ideas.I'm anti-liberal & anti-capitalist.I find you all a disappointment
2Jakk 2 months ago
@2Jakk People make such ridiculous assumptions about me. Right wing radio? I'm an anarchist :P
XOmniverse 2 months ago
@XOmniverse If your an anarchist why are you using libertarian semantics? Those creeps use "alex jones" logic to reel people into deep right water. like your big gov liberal comment, or your poor people comment...liberal gov. and "deregulated capitalist" gov are just different shapes..and fuck yes it makes me sick to see zillionaires out doubling their income off anothers labor and hoarding wealth while others die for lack of food
2Jakk 2 months ago
@2Jakk Big government liberals and big government conservatives both exist in large numbers, but OWS is dominated by big government liberals, hence the choice in language.
What you're basically saying is "Why didn't you use language that didn't set off my defenses?" Why is managing your defenses my job?
XOmniverse 2 months ago 2
@2Jakk have you ever been in a riot? its not the uneducated "the shoe pinches but I cant tell where" you seem to think it is, those old examples of destroying our own neighborhoods are actually rare for want of truth. As far as the occupiers not understanding economics thats way to big a generalization, i recently got involved with that cuz how the media makes them look (armchair critique is weak) and found an abundance of pseudo intellectual fuktards, understanding economics fine
2Jakk 2 months ago
@2Jakk I dont man, get off your computer and get out there, there a shitload of anarchists in occupy, I think it depends on which occupy where, and if theres not enough where your at get em' together. Its tedious, its a pain, you gotta work with asshole liberals and council communists and dumbass white middleclass wannabe intellectuals, and just plain idiots that might ask you what capitalism means...
2Jakk 2 months ago
@XOmniverse damn I just did like two me to my-selves, anyway, as ashanti alston says in this talk about the old panthers, they didnt have all the theories and analysis so they got out there and figured it out as they went, because it was just that bad....
2Jakk 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Bloomberg news sued the illegal private federal reserve and won. They just released data on federal reserve lending in 08 and 09 at 7.7 trillion - 11x tarp. They lent this money to large US and foreign banks (including billions to Bank of Libya). This allowed large US banks to consolidate wealth and walk off with hundreds of billions in profit - at your expense.
google the bloomberg article yourself and read it (nov 27).
OWS is about ending the monetary usury and fabricated wars
johnh173 2 months ago
Also, we do need a safety net. And tax dollars should go back to people, that's why we are entitled to it, hence the definition of the word? We should be developing avenues to strengthen people and their development instead of using over 50 percent of our budget for useless wars and crony contracts. We have over 1000 military bases around the world. Does empire come to mind, and that empires are bad? And that they all crumble from overstretch? Hmmm.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@NocheezRecords Why not just not tax in the first place?
XOmniverse 2 months ago
@XOmniverse Unless you can offer perfect liberty, which if you are a capitalist Adam Smith himself claims must be perfect, you have to build an infrastructure for people. That's what a society does when it cares about people over profit. What do all these businesses use to sell their products? Highways, trains, on and on. Educated minds? Your comment is way to simple and it's giving me the impression you have a very limited understanding of how the world truly operates.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@XOmniverse It's also known that these capitalists who understood liberty stated that without perfect liberty government would be the shadow cast over it by big business. Sound familiar? I personally find capitalism to be not such a good system for a myriad of reasons. It's very destructive to people who are wage slaves and the ecosystem. Anyone who thinks they aren't a slave is brainwashed or still living with mommy. The system is not free to those who understand what freedom is.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
Also, more than any other protest group Occupy has thousands of people who were already activists involved in a myriad of causes. In the scope of protest it's an incredibly informed lot. Of course there are people who are going by feelings, but media? The media does nothing to promote such ideas. This is not the Tea Party. These folks are getting involved in legislation, and that includes me. Hoards of local proposals have been made. I think the lack of media reporting has you uninformed.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The longer the video continues the more incorrect it gets. I am willing to have a philosophical discussion. They are not specific? Oh my, its a good thing you aren't a reporter. Unprincipled people? Big government? The American version of Libertarianism is not Libertarianism at all, it's fascist. Libertarian Socialism is traditional anarchism which grew out of the enlightenment. It is based on horizontal democracy which all GA's are run by at Occupy.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The longer the video continues the more incorrect it gets. I am willing to have a philosophical discussion. They are not specific? Oh my, its a good thing you aren't a reporter. Unprincipled people? Big government? The American version of Libertarianism is not Libertarianism at all, it's fascist. Libertarian Socialism is traditional anarchism which grew out of the enlightenment. It is based on horizontal democracy which all GA's are run by at Occupy.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The longer the video continues the more incorrect it gets. I am willing to have a philosophical discussion. They are not specific? Oh my, its a good thing you aren't a reporter. Unprincipled people? Big government? The American version of Libertarianism is not Libertarianism at all, it's fascist. Libertarian Socialism is traditional anarchism which grew out of the enlightenment. It is based on horizontal democracy which all GA's are run by at Occupy.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
The longer the video continues the more incorrect it gets. I am willing to have a philosophical discussion. They are not specific? Oh my, its a good thing you aren't a reporter. Unprincipled people? Big government? The American version of Libertarianism is not Libertarianism at all, it's fascist. Libertarian Socialism is traditional anarchism which grew out of the enlightenment. It is based on horizontal democracy which all GA's are run by at Occupy.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
That's funny, I am on the grounds constantly and I have to say the person who did this video pretty much has no idea what he is talking about. There is social injustice and the funds were stolen. The majority have suffered from the actions of the very few. You also forget that the corporations are corrupting the state. Kind of important to know. I've met many people that absolutely understand what they want and are involved in legislation. You really need to go talk to someone at an occupy.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@NocheezRecords "You also forget that the corporations are corrupting the state." It's a mutual corruption, but no, I did not forget this. I even mentioned in the video that some people at OWS are aware of this.
You might find people that know a few facts about legislation/lobbying/etc., but how many have rock solid principles on human rights and justice that could withstand more than a couple of skeptical questions?
XOmniverse 2 months ago
@XOmniverse I know there is collusion. It's other people who forget who the corruptors are (corporatons) and don't see the insanity of letting these tyrannical forces go unregulated. Regulations aren't bad, types of regulations can be. The world is run by business and the neo-liberal economic system has been nothing short of tyrannical globally. It's finally coming home to roost. We aren't neccessary now since the capitalists have found their new slave labor camp, China.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@XOmniverse Plus your question doesn't address your complete misrepresentation of OWS. You obviously are making judgements on something you have not studied or experienced. Kind of hard, probably arrogant and maybe even ignorant to tell me, who is involved, what OWS is all about - no? I have no problem with questions however. that would make sense, ask someone involved what it is about. It would at least be closer to the truth.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
Due to the police state's crackdown & the onset of winter, OWS is, at this point, fragmented & leaderless. Whether it emerges in the spring with more direction & political acumen remains to be seen. However, it needs to do both. If it doesn't refine & solidify its disparate messages & desires, it will become irrelevant in the election year, which will result, predictably, in the continuation of the unacceptable status-quo. A leader needs to emerge to offer political goals that can be attained.
BrotherWoody1 2 months ago
@BrotherWoody1 And what exactly is the goal of the movement?
pawnstar3 2 months ago
@pawnstar3 Remains to be seen. I think that the overall goal should be the significant reduction of government corruption through the election of like minded people to Congress & state legislatures. For a true alternative to the tyrannical status quo, a candidate like Ron Paul or Gary Johnson seems likely to emerge a leader that OWS can support in 2012. For the latest suggestions on how Congress must reform, see Peter Schweizer's new Book TV presentation: Throw Them All Out.
BrotherWoody1 2 months ago
@BrotherWoody1 Ron Paul??? He wants to reduce the government's involvement in our capitalistic society. OWS protestors want to increase it. Paul is the last person they'd want to elect. They want to elect the most extremely left wing candidate they can find - so Obama would be their choice. Oh wait- all of this is happening under his watch - so looks like the protestors are screwed. They may actually have to try and find a job just like everyone else did.
pawnstar3 2 months ago
@pawnstar3 Ron Paul has some good ideas about bringing the troops home, fixing the fed situation, but the rest is frightening. A keynote speaker for the John Birch society? Are you kidding me? That is one bad organization.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@NocheezRecords Don't be frightened of someone new & emphatically different. The GOP & the Dems aren't any longer credible & both are corrupt to the core. Ron Paul isn't corrupt & never has been. If you want to save the Constitution, so that it can be amended to suit the needs of the people, then it's going to take leaders like Paul or Nader to bring it about. Traditional party politics is over, the status quo is intolerable. What are you going to do? Vote for Romney? Obama?
BrotherWoody1 2 months ago
@BrotherWoody1 - I don't care for republicans or democrats and in reality I don't think presidents can do much. The system is controlled. The problem with Ron Paul is I don't like some of his ideas. I mentioned the ones I agree with however, freeing up tyrannnical institutions is a horrible idea and I think socially he'd bring us back to the dark ages. Nadar on the other hand I really like. Nadar is a true hero, he's done incredible work throughout his life.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@NocheezRecords Too bad Nader isn't running. But Paul is. Bite the bullet. At least, he'll be better than anyone else in the race including O. Remember that RR tried to decrease the amount of govt. waste through the Grace commission. He didn't get very far. Paul may be stymied too but at least he's willing to give it a new try. Perfection is the enemy of good enough. There are no perfect choices but compared to the rest, Paul seems like the best choice for us in 2012.
BrotherWoody1 2 months ago
@BrotherWoody1 Sorry, I just can't go with Paul, I think he is dangerous. Again I point out he was a keynote speaker for the John Birch society. I suggest we the people make the changes. You're an activist, you know what I am speaking on. It doesn't matter who is so much who is in when the whole country is pressuring the establishment. As far as Ronald Reagan he massively increased government, free'd up corporations, committed war crimes and more than tripled the debt.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@pawnstar3 Don't be too sure about what OWS wants to do. Gary Johnson, for one, would disagree with you. As the vid correctly points out, everyone seems to know what they're against but nobody seems to know exactly what they're for. OWS isn't solidified enough at this point to know what it wants to accomplish. Obviously, you don't want anyone who's going to upset your applecart, so you use the same stereotypes as the MSM to discredit them. You know very little about OWS or Ron Paul.
BrotherWoody1 2 months ago
@BrotherWoody1 So let me get this straight – you can’t give an objective and I’m the one that doesn’t know what’s going on? Laughable. What they’re against is people actually succeeding since they aren’t succeeding in their own lives. It’s jealousy – plain and simple. Why aren’t people occupying Hollywood? How about Occupying Oprah Winfrey, right outside of her mansion? One real problem is colleges are flooded with people that don't belong there (hence the fighting for jobs upon graduation)
pawnstar3 2 months ago
@pawnstar3 Typical rich guy guarding his treasures. Hollywood? Yea, look at SOPA. Looks like you're the jealous one: Satisfied with the status-quo with nothing to protest. Get with it, buddy, you're flying blind & are going to crash hard. Keep defending your defenseless govt & their cohorts, the military/industrial, congressional/banking complex. Your NWO isn't going to complete itself, thanks to folks like OWS. Be a patriot, be an American, wake up! OCCUPY!
BrotherWoody1 2 months ago
@pawnstar3 Here's one that seems to be coming to the surface, wanting to rid corporate personhood and money in politics and reverse such things as Citizens United. There are two amendments now, The Sanders and Deutsch amendments. (along with hundreds of local proposals). We also want all the folks who lost/stole 40 percent of the worlds economy, who put bets on loans they knew were bad and made billions held accountable, investigated and put on trial. Sounds like a good start to me.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@NocheezRecords And what does protesting in front of buildings doing to change any of that? Protest in front of Congress. You're also talking about corruption - EVERYONE is against corruption. OWS isnt about that - it's about a bunch of crybabies who actually think the world is fair and can be made equal. It was that egalitarian thinking that got us in the mess in the first place. Colleges accept WAY too many people - it's not for everyone.
pawnstar3 2 months ago
@pawnstar3 Obviously you know nothing about history. You also must not have read my other posts on what they are doing legislatively. Crybabies? The majority of the Occupy movement work. They know what should be obvious to everyone, that the system is not democratic. Really weird when people like you don't want people to express their constitutional rights to make positive change. Your statement is idiotic from the first word. It's not an argument, just yelling and screaming.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@NocheezRecords Yelling and screaming??? I'm writing down my points in a non-confrontational manner. The only people yelling and screaming are the OWS protestors and you. Nothing that comes out of my mouth is ever idiotic. Bye bye clown.
pawnstar3 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@pawnstar3 - I disagree, your whole post was nonsense and did zero to resemble a debate. It was ignorant and devisive and lacked historical facts. Read my posts and see that I offer ideas and actual facts from being in OWS. ou are really dumb enough to think this statement isn't devisive and is debate worthy: "You're also talking about corruption - EVERYONE is against corruption. OWS isnt about that - it's about a bunch of crybabies..."
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@pawnstar3 Oh, and the idea of corruption and holding these folks accountable is probably the most mentioned thing on signs. The movement is very much about social and economic justice. So you aren't, then why not just admit you have no ethics? Funny, wanting democracy, fairness is negative to you, lol. Weird.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@BrotherWoody1 It's not just government corruption, it's the corporations who are doing the corrupting via their powerful lobby that average folks do not have. What you are saying is like arresting the low level street thug and letting the mob boss carry on. Ron Paul wants to free up corporations, deregulate them, phew. Talk about a bad idea, allowing a tyrannical institution that places profit over human life to police themselves. We need institutions beneficial to humans.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@NocheezRecords Yep & besides the incipient Zeitgeist movement there is nothing on the horizon other than the institutions that we already have. Perhaps you should stop looking to fulfill your utopian ideal & search for something that's achievable right now. Ron Paul isn't perfect but he's as close as we have to restoring liberty & justice. What's the choice? Obama & his assassinations, the NDAA, & the FEMA (concentration) camps? Both the GOP & the Dems are corrupt & kaput.
BrotherWoody1 2 months ago
@BrotherWoody1 I hate that word utopian. It's like using the phrase conspiracy theory. It's not an argument. At one point freeing black slaves was thought of as utopian. I look at facts and how systems function. By the way the choice is the people changing the country via grass roots activism, direct action democracy. In fact historically it is the only way change for the majority has happened . I don't look to the government, we should force their hand. So get involved.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@NocheezRecords I agree with you & I'm involved at the local level as well as the national & international level. Humans all over the world are more involved now in self-determination than at any other time in history. The power hoarders, however, will not go away gently & it's the fight of our time: the individual against the collective or the much trumpeted, New World Order. Persist & Endure, Pax & Good Luck!
BrotherWoody1 2 months ago
@pawnstar3 There are many, and that is the way it should be. Occupy has many folks who already have been active. I know this from personal experience. Friends of mine and other have been active for decades, some even from the 60's. Stop listening to mainstream media, they are completely distorting what this is.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@NocheezRecords Couldn't agree with you more about the MSM. BTW, I'm 65 & have been active since the 60's.
BrotherWoody1 2 months ago
@BrotherWoody1 It is supposed to be leaderless. that is not hurting the movement. It isn't going anywhere. Remember, just because you don't hear things doesn't mean stuff isn't going on. the mainstream media has been horrible about reporting. Makes sense though since they are owned by the very folks Occupy is speaking out against. This gives it a level of validity in my eyes.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@john42t I never said the movement was "fundamentally anarchist". The movemental reflects sundry political philosophies. OWS primarily seeks to address the corruption of our economic and political structures by the elites. I specifically referred to the PROCCESS by which the movement operates. It is decentralized, horizontal and participatory democratic. This was arrived at at the original planning meetings at, which anarchists were well represented. The influence is undeniable.
LordEreinionXXV 2 months ago
I don't know of a single person who thinks that the government will solve all problems (but I do know a lot of "conservatives" who think that's what all liberals think). I do know LOTS of folks who think that some problems need collective action to reach a solution or a workable compromise, which is what government is for.
jagmarz 2 months ago
Youll wake up.
MarkoKraguljac 2 months ago
I think it's hard not to realize that people are emotional and impulsive, and I'm sure there are good reasons for that (I'm thinking in terms of evolution, survival value of traits, etc)... But yes, the lack of critical thinking and hard reasoning is unnerving sometimes, especially in situations like these... On the other hand, I sometimes think its unfair to demand or even expect (not that you're doing it) any better from people in general, not everyone has the capacity to grasp the abstract...
Crow512 2 months ago
It is extremely dismissive to claim that OWS are a bunch of "big government liberals" who want something handed to them. The way OWS approaches problems really does not reflect this. We ask people to assemble in their communities to arrive at solutions to greater problems using participatory democracy. We also help communities to address immediate issues using direct action. If OWS was about big govt, then it would simply do what mainstream politics says we should do and beg the govt for shit.
LordEreinionXXV 2 months ago
WOW talk about painting with a broad brush.... how simpleton of you. OWS has a spectrum of political points of view. How do you figured that all of them want the state to fix their problems? Sure there are people there that do. So why are you not out there showing them why that is a dumb idea. Instead you arm chair quarterback from your house. Vulgar libertarians always do this shit.
N0g0dzN0masterz 2 months ago
what, in your opinion, is the purpose of government?
CentristRevolution 2 months ago
@CentristRevolution Are you asking what role I think the government ought to have in human affairs?
XOmniverse 2 months ago
@XOmniverse government, like religion and society, are creations of man; created to satisfy a need. why did we create government? was it merely to offer protection? and even if this was so, doesn't the American ideal of goverment go beyond this basic role? the framers believed that the role of gov was to promote the general welfare.
CentristRevolution 2 months ago
@CentristRevolution People applied leeches to the body to cure disease. That doesn't mean that it actually works.
XOmniverse 2 months ago
@XOmniverse but what about the general will? gov is whatever the people say it is. if people vote for a free big mac every tuesday, what's wrong with that?
CentristRevolution 2 months ago
@CentristRevolution The government does not represent the general will, it represents a very small group of people. In general a mass would not vote against itself. Once seeing that everyone getting free big macs doesn't work it would reverse it's actions. The tiny minority have no problem rigging the system for themselves. By the way, big mac analogy, not very good. In a good economy almost all want to work and be productive. We forget many that do not are mentally ill.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@NocheezRecords We also must understand that everything is done in community and effects it. You can't shirk responsibility for the negatives society creates, we have to work together toward liberty and a healthy society. Unless you decide to go it all alone in the woods and use zero resources from the society. Fat chance the majority would do that. We are all guilty now. If you buy something from a big box store you support slave labor and other atrocities. Time to stand up.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
"Big government liberals"? Seriously? That's why we've made it clear we are not involved in electoral politics or supporting political parties? Is it typical of big gov liberals to hold to Anarchist principals of organization? Nobody in OWS understands economics, huh? Really? How do you come up with these idiotic statements when it's evident that you don't know anything about the movement or the people involved.
buddhagem 2 months ago
@buddhagem In occupywallst dor org/about/, the middle paragraph clearly states that an agenda is to be fought for by democratic means. Does this not mean the state? What else is democratic? The agenda is there declared to be anti-rich, anti-bank and anti-corporation. Anti-state or anarchism is not mentioned. Do you argue that the site has been set up as a strawman by OWS detractors?
john42t 2 months ago
@john42t democratic has nothing to do with the state if you didn't know that well get to reading.
N0g0dzN0masterz 2 months ago
@john42t Arriving at decisions through consenus and the GA's comes directly from the anarchist tradition. In the Declation of the Occupation of NYC it clearly talks about "creat(ing) a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone." For anarchists, direct, participatory democracy is a truer conception of democracy in contrast to bourgeois parliamentarianism found across the globe. No State required
LordEreinionXXV 2 months ago
Comment removed
john42t 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@LordEreinionXXV The link I wasn't referring to isn't using the words "anarchism" or "state" once. It only talks about the evils of rich people/banks/corporations. Shouldn't an anarchist movement at least name the state?
john42t 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@LordEreinionXXV The link I wasn't referring to isn't using the words "anarchism" or "state" once. It only talks about the evils of rich people/banks/corporations. Shouldn't an anarchist movement at least name the state?
john42t 2 months ago
Why do you feel the need to consistently speak out on topics you don't understand? Have you bothered to read our statement of autonomy? Have you followed the movement in any meaningful way? There's nothing in this video that shows you have any idea what OWS is about. You seem to have no idea what's going on and yet you offer your perspective why?
buddhagem 2 months ago
Why are you unable to offer your criticisms in a respectful manner?
XOmniverse 2 months ago
@XOmniverse You have a long history of speaking out on matters you're clearly not informed on. How about a little respect for your audience? Why not do your homework before you speak? In regards to the nonsense about "Big Gov Liberals" I've seen plenty of those folks pull their hair out in frustration with this movement. Start with the statement of autonomy. Form your opinion based on facts not imagination
buddhagem 2 months ago
I had an argument with my cousin about OWS. I pretty much said the same thing you did. She retaliated saying that even though they might not have a unified direction it's still okay as long as the government knows the people are mad. I just thought that was a silly way to think about it.
Side note: You don't still live with Aaron right? Does anyone hop it the chat room anymore? I need to re-download Skype on my new comp, my old one broke.
UnschoolingEagle 2 months ago
@UnschoolingEagle No, but I live relatively nearby. The room is intermittently active but not exceptionally so.
XOmniverse 2 months ago
@XOmniverse Ah ok well I will probably hop in from time to time from now on. Good to see new videos btw! Great to listen to while leveling in Star Wars hahaha
UnschoolingEagle 2 months ago
I like this video. Sound, carefully formulated arguments, no jumping to extreme conclusions.
danielsondanielson 2 months ago
Your analogy of libertarianism sounds mutual to myself compiling countermeasures to these vicious cycles I've been in for the last 3 and a half months.
Swampymcswamp 2 months ago
Pretty spot on.
shlockofgod 2 months ago
There is an article on JFK debt free notes on silverbearcafe site -
"Debt-Free United States Notes Were Once Issued Under JFK And The U.S. Government Still Has The Power To Issue Debt-Free Money"
If you read recent bloomberg report on 7.7 trillion bailout (11 x tarp) - banks were lending money to government and stole tens of billions off of you, your children and your family by this con. News flash -the constitutions dictates only the government can coin money, if so there would be no debt
johnh173 2 months ago
@johnh173: " News flash -the constitutions dictates only the government can coin money, if so there would be no debt"
Hope the next President doesn't pull a Jackson and actually kill the Fed. Because once that goes, then the Mint'll be next......and soon, only private companies would be able to coin currency(P.S., many of the state banks in Jackson's day were privately owned, too).
MiracleMile90 2 months ago
yay video
Occupy wallstreet is the controlled opposition to the tea party which is also now controlled.
MirageScience 2 months ago
@MirageScience
I wouldn't really say its controlled opposition. If it were, there wouldn't be such a concerted attempt by the 'authorities' to shut it down. The Tea Party weren't getting hassled nearly as bad as the Occupy folks. Nobody from the Tea Party got their skull cracked open from a tear gas canister to the head, or pepper sprayed despite already being on their knees and cuffed up.
Alastrian83 2 months ago
@Alastrian83 Nobody from the tea party got hit that bad because they were not OCCUPYING.
MirageScience 2 months ago
@MirageScience
Well they weren't sitting around at home griping on the internet. They were gathering en masse in a public space, making lots of noise, making themselves as visible as they could. Many of them also carried guns and made veiled threats about 'watering the Tree of Liberty' and that they came in peace 'this time'. Most of the Occupy movement has been nonviolent, and chances are that the few examples of vandalism and violence were agent provocateurs.
Alastrian83 2 months ago
@Alastrian83 Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. JFK "this time" refers to this quote if you don't belive it then that's your prerogative. My point still stands, there was no concert attempt to shut it down because of it's message but because it was occupying space where it is illegal to camp. Just to let you know it's not illegal to be armed in public. I bet that case of rape was just provocateurs hu?
MirageScience 2 months ago
@MirageScience
I was referring more to the Black Bloc maniacs running around wrecking shops and spraying graffiti.
Alastrian83 2 months ago
@MirageScience: There is a far more significant criminal element amongst the Tea-Freakers but they didn't get beaten down on by the cops like the OWS people did.
MiracleMile90 2 months ago
@MiracleMile90 yeah because we found out that a tea partier raped a girl, oh wait that was an occupier.
MirageScience 2 months ago
@MirageScience
You can't pin ONE rape on an entire movement comprised of MILLIONS worldwide.
Alastrian83 2 months ago
@MirageScience Actually the majority of the time the Occupy'ers are being attacked by homeless and criminals already on the streets who commit crimes and who the police obviously cannot control. SO the police answer this by beating up Occupy'ers. Mull that over a bit. Because Occupy is in a public space it doesn't have the right to stop those folks from being there unless there is a crime committed and they do call the police.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
@MirageScience Nope, Occupy is not a political party or backed by anyone except the individuals that enter it and all have equal say, horizontal democracy.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
In short: if you're sick, you don't pray to jesus for better health, you go to the doctor.
MaikUniversum 2 months ago
@MaikUniversum And if you can't afford a doctor, you don't set up a tent to pray to the government to pay for your doctor; you figure out a way to afford it.
XOmniverse 2 months ago 4
@XOmniverse: "you figure out a way to afford it."
LOL, if only it were that easy.......I'm sorry, but have you been listening to Glenn Beck or somebody similar?
MiracleMile90 2 months ago
@MiracleMile90 It's possible for someone to not be able to find a way and just be fucked, and that sucks, but the government will never be the solution to that problem. Time spent trying to solve that problem with government is time wasted.
XOmniverse 2 months ago
well, the point you made at the end is really good. One of the most important things of being libertarian is a lack of [de]illusion that state can solve your problems.
MaikUniversum 2 months ago
social justice is an aplication of justice in a domain that is outside of the confines of the legal or the mainstream of political discourse. they're not necesarily in contradiction, but the legal and the political can be based on a particular order which might mean something inherently unjust in more basic social dynamics. so it becomes relevant when the established order of things becomes questionable from the perspective of a more robust conception of justice, that's my take, anyway.
fede2 2 months ago
Do you think thee tea party movement and the occupy wall street movement are two sides of the same coin?
Pentazoid111 2 months ago
@Pentazoid111 Essentially. They both clearly have their roots in the cultural right and cultural left respectively. Clearly both the left and the right are fed up, however, and I think this is why Ron Paul is doing so much better this time around than in 2008 (though I still doubt he will even get the nomination)
XOmniverse 2 months ago
@Pentazoid111: My research suggests not, BUT there have been some pretty suspicious & shady figures who have tried to attach themselves to the movement.......Rocky Suhayda and Kalle Lasn to name a couple.
MiracleMile90 2 months ago
I agree with you about the ‘movement’ only indicating that a lot of people are upset, but if you stop being so pedantic it’s very easy to understand why the people there generally want change, namely financial inequality in society, which is a legitimate grievance. Expressing that grievance and appealing to democratic forces in a democracy isn’t a wholly flawed plan. What would a libertarian in this situation do if not appeal to something which cannot be overthrown?
Charlesdance 2 months ago 5
@Charlesdance "but if you stop being so pedantic"
Address me respectfully and I might address your question.
XOmniverse 2 months ago
@XOmniverse Sorry boss, but I think if you stop being so pedantic you can look beyond my pedantic comment and address, if you so choose, my previous comment in which there are points you can address, if you so choose, if you stop being so pedantic.
Charlesdance 2 months ago 4
@Charlesdance Have fun on someone else's channel!
XOmniverse 2 months ago
@Charlesdance Correct, it's not only not flawed but it is only one part of what we are doing. The problem with many folks is they can't grasp a leaderless democratic movement based on horizontal democracy. They've been so ensconced in this system it gives them an incredibly narrow view. I haven't heard any of this nonsense about getting stuff for free, but I have heard wanting accountability for the folks who destroyed the economy whether in corporations or government.
NocheezRecords 2 months ago
As you composed this video, I was eating applesauce and organic maple syrup on organic 9 grain bread.
Swampymcswamp 2 months ago
@Swampymcswamp Hippie.
XOmniverse 2 months ago