The reconstructed Finale doesn't match the highest quality as it's manifested in the previous movements, although it's great music and the scholarly work put in it is of course admirable.
It's just the 'Bruckner finales problem': he starts on such high an altitude that anything in the finales seems less convincing. Maybe if the 4th had a grander and more extended coda... Even in the 5th he 'obviously tries too much', but there's an extraordinarily ecstatic coda.
@lewars1912 Maybe I picked the wrong word, it is grand of course, but too short, at least for me. I've always felt it needed more space to unfold and leave its mark after the stormy C minor of the Finale.
Contrary to d60944, I love this finale. I count what we have (and we have most of it) among Bruckner's finest creations. If we had all grown up with a three-movement 8th, how would we react to a newly-discovered fourth movement?
As for Bruckner's endless revising: Sometimes he got it right the first time. Think of symphony #3, mov. 1, 1873 version. Later versions cut out the best stuff! One of the excised themes from the 3rd is used in this finale -- what I call the "Gabriel's Trumpet" theme.
I just heard this performance. It's good, but the Eichhorn is FAR better. Performance counts for much here. The original Talmi recording of Carragan's completion is much more persuasive than is Carragan's revised version, rendered by Soudant.
A German calling himself 9Bruckner has provided a good YouTube upload of the ultra-rare Eichhorn disc
@CannonfireVideo Yes, this performance could be better (if you hear the other movements in the same recording, likewise none are as captivating as the best performances). However, I think this remains for the moment the best actual *music* in all the completions of the Finale, performance quality aside. Eichorn used the Samale et al version from 1992 unfortunately, thrilling though his brass sound is (don't you think he's a bit slow-paced too though???)
@d60944 I'm a Celi fan. Ain't no such thing as too slow in Bruckner. As I understand it, Eichhorn made some additions of his own, rendering his version unique (which may explain why the disc has not been reissued). I still prefer it. The difference between SPCM '92 and SPCM '11 is not THAT great.
In both versions, I think they chose the wrong Hallelujah theme. In my "Bruckner in Hollywood" video, I offer another suggestion.
OK, I have to admit it: The Eichhorn 5th really IS too slow.
@CannonfireVideo I am going to Berlin in February to hear the latest completion of the 9th with the Berln Philharmonic conducted by Simon Rattle.The new final coda I believe will make this into the classical music event of this century if not the last 50 years. The final " Hallelujah" that Bruckner's doctor reported to be the clinching movement of the work is when trumpets in unison play in D Major the theme that begins the adagio.I suspect this to be the musical event of my life
La reconstrucción del finale de la S. IX es un acierto pleno. El catálogo de obras de Bruckner no es muy extenso, no se puede ignorar una partitura tan imponente y con algunos de los momentos brucknerianos de mejor inspiración. Se hecha de menos el acabado magistral del finale de la S. VIII, pero el resultado es excelente.
This "farewell to life" nonsense is just that. Some silly critic came up with that, who knows when. It's certainly nothing I've ever heard attributed to Bruckner himself. If he really wanted the 9th to end after the third movement, why did he struggle to complete the finale? I've been listening to Bruckner 40 years. I can tell you without any hesitation that this finale is his masterpiece. As to using themes from previous works, he went further that that. Like the opening motive of Haydn 104
@moosatious well said. i completely agree. for B to end a symphony with a slow movement is totally out of character. this is the mystic and ecstatic contemplation of a believer knowinghis time is come and he is about to enter the Most Holy and Terrible Presence.
May this be my song when the time comes that the Dread Lord and Sovereign summons me into this same glorious presence
the more i hear this reconstruction ,the more it fits in with the other 3 movements.when you have been used to listening to the published 9th,,its hard to accept. anything added to the end.,
Please excuse me if I emphasize something that is obvious to everybody who knows music.
A piece of music is always arranged in a pattern that is clear to even the first time listener. For ex, the first theme is often repeated at the end, thus creating the very familiar A-B-A and A-B-A-C-A arrangements. Bruckner's style is very distinctive, and that combined with the sketches that he left behind gives a very good idea of how this symphony should end.
Indeed a very exciting and triumphal conclusion...cannot bring myself to think that AB would have rounded that final coda off so easily and as straightforward as that, considering the sheer weight and drama of the previous three movements...a great experiment all the same..
This is a VERY good finale. Listen to the atonal climax then the motif repeated in the coda. This a resolution of the pattern heard at the coda of the 3rd movement. Then the theme sounded by the horns is an exultant response to the agitated theme of the first movement. Not saying it could match anything Bruckner would have done, but it's still way better to hear this than just cut it off at the 3rd.
sjlevine34- Its good to read your comments.I adore Bruckners Music. How I wish he was well enough to have completed the fourth movenent of his greatest symphony.Stephen Johnson the great Bruckner expert says that maybe its best that Bruckner did not complete the symphony, because in his mental and physical state he was not up to it, anyway not in a saticfactory manner. Zimmer has over 2 Million "hits" on his ending to "Da Vinci" on You Tube. And its just
Stephen Johnson can get right in line with the people who think that the Prestissimo closing bars of the 9th Beethoven are the result of his deafness.
Joking aside, I'm guessing into the dark here but maybe give the Te Deum another reading.
This right here might then make a great deal of sense ( as will Bruckner's wish to play the Te Deum in substitution).
I also strongly agree with the kind uploader, the performence here is good but not quite first rate.
(con.) Also want to point out that this here is not Carragan's attempt at (re)composing a finale but the most up to date recording of the much more faithfull Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs completion, working from the entirety of the avaiable sketches ( work in progress, it was amended just this year ).
This 2011 - supposedly final - version with an entirely new coda had it's world premier on October 15th and will be given at Carnegie Hall on February 24th by the BPO under Rattle.
@HuninMunin Yes-you are of course correct.There is a very interesting new clip" Bruckner in Hollwood" I like very much what the contributer suggests.
Indeed an interesting point of view, thank you for sharing.
For a complete thorough discussion of the mysterious "Halleluja" motif I can wholeheartely recommend giving the latest essay concerning the 2011 completion of the finale a shot.
I strongly disagree with d60944. This finale ties the symphony together in that it is a statement of resurrection. Incidentally, this clip is from the recapitulation. I have been listening to the SPCM reconstruction of this movement as performed byJohannes Wildner and the Westphalia New Philharmonic Orchestra. And it is fantastic.
I strongly disagree with d60944. This finale ties the symphony together in that it is a statement of resurrection. Incidentally, this clip is from the recapitulation. I have been listening to the SPCM reconstruction of this movement as performed byJohannes Wildner and the Westphalia New Philharmonic Orchestra. And it is fantastic.
I strongly disagree with d60944. This finale ties the symphony together in that it is a statement of resurrection. Incidentally, this clip is from the recapitulation. I have been listening to the SPCM reconstruction of this movement as performed byJohannes Wildner and the Westphalia New Philharmonic Orchestra. And it is fantastic.
@sjlevine34 Yes this clip is from the recapitulation, but a recapitulation of what? Apart from the Chorale ,in my opinion there is nothing of substance in anything like to what we have heard in the first three movements. .I would sooner listen to the ending of Hans Zimmers The Da Vinci Code which was obviously" inspired" by some of William Carragans efforts. Because the best music after the Chorale is the Bruckner "style" music that Carragan composed for this last movement.
@iduefoscari, its a recap of the exposition section, which, to my ear currently, seems to have 4 parts. I will admit that I posted my comment before I noticed that this clip was part 3 of 3, for which I apologize. I just received my CD of the Wildner performance and am now listening to the movement repeatedly to fully understand it and memorize as much as possible. I have the Harnoncourt and Layer recordings (of which this clip is a part, on order.
I also might add that this site is still giving me problems. it seems to be inconsistent in letting you know when you have successfully posted something. The reply above is my second try, having lost the first one.
As a final comment from me. I have written that Hans Zimmer must of been inspired with the minimilistic music composed maybe by Bruckner or William Carragan towards the end of the finale after the reprise of the chorale,well I will go even further ! As a devotion to faith, Zimmers "Chevalliers De Sangreall" is a fitting ending to the end of the Bruckner 9 as a Coda !!!!!
I do not believe that this finale can be played after the preceeding movements.Bruckner would of not ended the third movement with his "farewell to life" if he was going to follow it with smething like this reconstruction. I believe the third movement would of ended something like in the dissonance of the "hellish" music we get before the "farewell".I reiterate if this finale is played as a" curiosity" that fine.BUT not as a finale to the greatest three movements in the symphonic repertory.
@iduefoscari The number of missing bars is known almost precisely: 223 of a probable total of 665. The 442 extant bars are substantial chunks of continuous music, mostly in full orchestration, and as long as eight or nine minutes, separated by gaps of only 8 or 16 or 24 bars. Not only that, sketches and revised sketches, in various states of completion, exist for 127 of those 223 missing bars, leaving only 96 bars, most of them in the coda, for which nothing in Bruckner's hand survives.
@d60944 Your comments are interesting and knowledgeable. My problem is that I just cannot believe that I am listenig to music other than the Chorale which has got anything to do with the previous three movements. I reiterate Bruckner was very ill. but was he ill mentally as well?I know the Chorale comes from the descending scale of the "Tallis" like theme from towards the end of the third movement. But the rest I just find fragmentary and at best ordinary and not good enough.
@iduefoscari I often find Bruckner's exisiting finales somewhat "problematic", and I'm not alone in that. Do you feel all the exisiting finales of the (for example) 6th to 8th symphonies are exempt from any criticism?
@d60944 In my opinion the coda of the fifth is his finest ending. The last movement of the eighth is very special. The themes from each movement piled up on each other in fuge is amazing and this what he would of done in the 9th I believe, but in my opinion through ill health he could not achieve. I find the last movement of the 7th not up to quality of the rest of the symphony. As for the sixth. The first movement is one of Bruckners greatest achievements. The chorale coda is heavenly
@iduefoscari Bear in mind that better conductors could do much more with this reconstruction..... the symphony as a whole in this recording is not a profound reading. It is good, certainly, but not on the level of the finest interpretations. I am not prepared to judge as harshly as you are....
I strongly disagree with d60944. This finale ties the symphony together in that it is a statement of resurrection. Incidentally, this clip is from the recapitulation. I have been listening to the SPCM reconstruction of this movement as performed byJohannes Wildner and the Westphalia New Philharmonic Orchestra. And it is fantastic.
The magnificient "original" Bruckner Chorale is just not enough to make this finale sound authentic. Yes there is other dissonant,fragmented Bruckner music , more akin to the very early symphonies, but most of this is not of the quality we have heard in the previous three movements.I can listen and enjoy this "finale" by itself. But not as a part of the Bruckner 9. Zimmer must of heard the earlier version of this for his inspiration for the final part of his score for The Da Vinci Code.
The reconstructed Finale doesn't match the highest quality as it's manifested in the previous movements, although it's great music and the scholarly work put in it is of course admirable.
It's just the 'Bruckner finales problem': he starts on such high an altitude that anything in the finales seems less convincing. Maybe if the 4th had a grander and more extended coda... Even in the 5th he 'obviously tries too much', but there's an extraordinarily ecstatic coda.
Anyway, who are we to judge him?
ImperXVIII 1 week ago
@ImperXVIII You think the last movement of Bruckner's 4th Symphony doesn't have a grand enough coda?
lewars1912 1 week ago
@lewars1912 Maybe I picked the wrong word, it is grand of course, but too short, at least for me. I've always felt it needed more space to unfold and leave its mark after the stormy C minor of the Finale.
ImperXVIII 1 week ago
04:03 Lovely.
lewars1912 3 weeks ago
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lewars1912 1 month ago
Comment removed
lewars1912 2 months ago
Contrary to d60944, I love this finale. I count what we have (and we have most of it) among Bruckner's finest creations. If we had all grown up with a three-movement 8th, how would we react to a newly-discovered fourth movement?
As for Bruckner's endless revising: Sometimes he got it right the first time. Think of symphony #3, mov. 1, 1873 version. Later versions cut out the best stuff! One of the excised themes from the 3rd is used in this finale -- what I call the "Gabriel's Trumpet" theme.
CannonfireVideo 3 months ago
@CannonfireVideo Oh it's not me who doesn't love this! I think it's great :-)
d60944 3 months ago
@d60944 Sorry! I responded to the wrong party.
I just heard this performance. It's good, but the Eichhorn is FAR better. Performance counts for much here. The original Talmi recording of Carragan's completion is much more persuasive than is Carragan's revised version, rendered by Soudant.
A German calling himself 9Bruckner has provided a good YouTube upload of the ultra-rare Eichhorn disc
CannonfireVideo 3 months ago
@CannonfireVideo Yes, this performance could be better (if you hear the other movements in the same recording, likewise none are as captivating as the best performances). However, I think this remains for the moment the best actual *music* in all the completions of the Finale, performance quality aside. Eichorn used the Samale et al version from 1992 unfortunately, thrilling though his brass sound is (don't you think he's a bit slow-paced too though???)
d60944 3 months ago
@d60944 I'm a Celi fan. Ain't no such thing as too slow in Bruckner. As I understand it, Eichhorn made some additions of his own, rendering his version unique (which may explain why the disc has not been reissued). I still prefer it. The difference between SPCM '92 and SPCM '11 is not THAT great.
In both versions, I think they chose the wrong Hallelujah theme. In my "Bruckner in Hollywood" video, I offer another suggestion.
OK, I have to admit it: The Eichhorn 5th really IS too slow.
CannonfireVideo 3 months ago
@CannonfireVideo PS I kind of wish that Letocart would get together with Samale et al and add his ideas into the mix before it gets too set in stone.
d60944 3 months ago
@CannonfireVideo I am going to Berlin in February to hear the latest completion of the 9th with the Berln Philharmonic conducted by Simon Rattle.The new final coda I believe will make this into the classical music event of this century if not the last 50 years. The final " Hallelujah" that Bruckner's doctor reported to be the clinching movement of the work is when trumpets in unison play in D Major the theme that begins the adagio.I suspect this to be the musical event of my life
iduefoscari 2 months ago
La reconstrucción del finale de la S. IX es un acierto pleno. El catálogo de obras de Bruckner no es muy extenso, no se puede ignorar una partitura tan imponente y con algunos de los momentos brucknerianos de mejor inspiración. Se hecha de menos el acabado magistral del finale de la S. VIII, pero el resultado es excelente.
ce4m109 5 months ago
This "farewell to life" nonsense is just that. Some silly critic came up with that, who knows when. It's certainly nothing I've ever heard attributed to Bruckner himself. If he really wanted the 9th to end after the third movement, why did he struggle to complete the finale? I've been listening to Bruckner 40 years. I can tell you without any hesitation that this finale is his masterpiece. As to using themes from previous works, he went further that that. Like the opening motive of Haydn 104
moosatious 5 months ago
@moosatious well said. i completely agree. for B to end a symphony with a slow movement is totally out of character. this is the mystic and ecstatic contemplation of a believer knowinghis time is come and he is about to enter the Most Holy and Terrible Presence.
May this be my song when the time comes that the Dread Lord and Sovereign summons me into this same glorious presence
Strefanasha 5 months ago in playlist Bruckner 9 finale 2008 reconstruction
the more i hear this reconstruction ,the more it fits in with the other 3 movements.when you have been used to listening to the published 9th,,its hard to accept. anything added to the end.,
winebird1 6 months ago
I am sure that he wrote this piece, for sure))))))))))))
Dima4702 6 months ago
Anton the great)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Dima4702 6 months ago
Please excuse me if I emphasize something that is obvious to everybody who knows music.
A piece of music is always arranged in a pattern that is clear to even the first time listener. For ex, the first theme is often repeated at the end, thus creating the very familiar A-B-A and A-B-A-C-A arrangements. Bruckner's style is very distinctive, and that combined with the sketches that he left behind gives a very good idea of how this symphony should end.
belianis 6 months ago
This is not Bruckner, lees the old Bruckner, sorry.
bruckner4444 6 months ago
Indeed a very exciting and triumphal conclusion...cannot bring myself to think that AB would have rounded that final coda off so easily and as straightforward as that, considering the sheer weight and drama of the previous three movements...a great experiment all the same..
mrsneaky2010 6 months ago
This is a VERY good finale. Listen to the atonal climax then the motif repeated in the coda. This a resolution of the pattern heard at the coda of the 3rd movement. Then the theme sounded by the horns is an exultant response to the agitated theme of the first movement. Not saying it could match anything Bruckner would have done, but it's still way better to hear this than just cut it off at the 3rd.
jonathanaconway 6 months ago
sjlevine34- Its good to read your comments.I adore Bruckners Music. How I wish he was well enough to have completed the fourth movenent of his greatest symphony.Stephen Johnson the great Bruckner expert says that maybe its best that Bruckner did not complete the symphony, because in his mental and physical state he was not up to it, anyway not in a saticfactory manner. Zimmer has over 2 Million "hits" on his ending to "Da Vinci" on You Tube. And its just
late Bruckner minimilism.
iduefoscari 9 months ago
@iduefoscari
Stephen Johnson can get right in line with the people who think that the Prestissimo closing bars of the 9th Beethoven are the result of his deafness.
Joking aside, I'm guessing into the dark here but maybe give the Te Deum another reading.
This right here might then make a great deal of sense ( as will Bruckner's wish to play the Te Deum in substitution).
I also strongly agree with the kind uploader, the performence here is good but not quite first rate.
HuninMunin 4 months ago 3
@iduefoscari
(con.) Also want to point out that this here is not Carragan's attempt at (re)composing a finale but the most up to date recording of the much more faithfull Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs completion, working from the entirety of the avaiable sketches ( work in progress, it was amended just this year ).
This 2011 - supposedly final - version with an entirely new coda had it's world premier on October 15th and will be given at Carnegie Hall on February 24th by the BPO under Rattle.
HuninMunin 4 months ago 3
@HuninMunin Yes-you are of course correct.There is a very interesting new clip" Bruckner in Hollwood" I like very much what the contributer suggests.
iduefoscari 4 months ago
@iduefoscari
Indeed an interesting point of view, thank you for sharing.
For a complete thorough discussion of the mysterious "Halleluja" motif I can wholeheartely recommend giving the latest essay concerning the 2011 completion of the finale a shot.
abruckner .
com/Data/articles/articlesEnglish/cohrsB9finale/Cohrs_BG_Introduction_SPCM2011_111015.pdf
Page 41 if you don't feel like reading the whole thing.
HuninMunin 4 months ago
@HuninMunin Yes, I'm attending that very concert. Can't wait to hear the brand new code! And conducted by Rattle!
jonathanaconway 1 month ago
My apologies for the multiple postings of the same thing. I am just getting the hang of this site. Incidentally, thanks for posting the clip.
sjlevine34 9 months ago
I strongly disagree with d60944. This finale ties the symphony together in that it is a statement of resurrection. Incidentally, this clip is from the recapitulation. I have been listening to the SPCM reconstruction of this movement as performed byJohannes Wildner and the Westphalia New Philharmonic Orchestra. And it is fantastic.
I incidentally have this recording on order.
sjlevine34 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I strongly disagree with d60944. This finale ties the symphony together in that it is a statement of resurrection. Incidentally, this clip is from the recapitulation. I have been listening to the SPCM reconstruction of this movement as performed byJohannes Wildner and the Westphalia New Philharmonic Orchestra. And it is fantastic.
sjlevine34 9 months ago
I strongly disagree with d60944. This finale ties the symphony together in that it is a statement of resurrection. Incidentally, this clip is from the recapitulation. I have been listening to the SPCM reconstruction of this movement as performed byJohannes Wildner and the Westphalia New Philharmonic Orchestra. And it is fantastic.
sjlevine34 9 months ago
@sjlevine34 Yes this clip is from the recapitulation, but a recapitulation of what? Apart from the Chorale ,in my opinion there is nothing of substance in anything like to what we have heard in the first three movements. .I would sooner listen to the ending of Hans Zimmers The Da Vinci Code which was obviously" inspired" by some of William Carragans efforts. Because the best music after the Chorale is the Bruckner "style" music that Carragan composed for this last movement.
iduefoscari 9 months ago
@iduefoscari, its a recap of the exposition section, which, to my ear currently, seems to have 4 parts. I will admit that I posted my comment before I noticed that this clip was part 3 of 3, for which I apologize. I just received my CD of the Wildner performance and am now listening to the movement repeatedly to fully understand it and memorize as much as possible. I have the Harnoncourt and Layer recordings (of which this clip is a part, on order.
sjlevine34 9 months ago
I also might add that this site is still giving me problems. it seems to be inconsistent in letting you know when you have successfully posted something. The reply above is my second try, having lost the first one.
sjlevine34 9 months ago
As a final comment from me. I have written that Hans Zimmer must of been inspired with the minimilistic music composed maybe by Bruckner or William Carragan towards the end of the finale after the reprise of the chorale,well I will go even further ! As a devotion to faith, Zimmers "Chevalliers De Sangreall" is a fitting ending to the end of the Bruckner 9 as a Coda !!!!!
iduefoscari 10 months ago
I do not believe that this finale can be played after the preceeding movements.Bruckner would of not ended the third movement with his "farewell to life" if he was going to follow it with smething like this reconstruction. I believe the third movement would of ended something like in the dissonance of the "hellish" music we get before the "farewell".I reiterate if this finale is played as a" curiosity" that fine.BUT not as a finale to the greatest three movements in the symphonic repertory.
iduefoscari 10 months ago
@iduefoscari The number of missing bars is known almost precisely: 223 of a probable total of 665. The 442 extant bars are substantial chunks of continuous music, mostly in full orchestration, and as long as eight or nine minutes, separated by gaps of only 8 or 16 or 24 bars. Not only that, sketches and revised sketches, in various states of completion, exist for 127 of those 223 missing bars, leaving only 96 bars, most of them in the coda, for which nothing in Bruckner's hand survives.
d60944 10 months ago
@d60944 Your comments are interesting and knowledgeable. My problem is that I just cannot believe that I am listenig to music other than the Chorale which has got anything to do with the previous three movements. I reiterate Bruckner was very ill. but was he ill mentally as well?I know the Chorale comes from the descending scale of the "Tallis" like theme from towards the end of the third movement. But the rest I just find fragmentary and at best ordinary and not good enough.
iduefoscari 10 months ago
@iduefoscari I often find Bruckner's exisiting finales somewhat "problematic", and I'm not alone in that. Do you feel all the exisiting finales of the (for example) 6th to 8th symphonies are exempt from any criticism?
d60944 10 months ago
@d60944 In my opinion the coda of the fifth is his finest ending. The last movement of the eighth is very special. The themes from each movement piled up on each other in fuge is amazing and this what he would of done in the 9th I believe, but in my opinion through ill health he could not achieve. I find the last movement of the 7th not up to quality of the rest of the symphony. As for the sixth. The first movement is one of Bruckners greatest achievements. The chorale coda is heavenly
iduefoscari 10 months ago
@iduefoscari Bear in mind that better conductors could do much more with this reconstruction..... the symphony as a whole in this recording is not a profound reading. It is good, certainly, but not on the level of the finest interpretations. I am not prepared to judge as harshly as you are....
d60944 10 months ago
I strongly disagree with d60944. This finale ties the symphony together in that it is a statement of resurrection. Incidentally, this clip is from the recapitulation. I have been listening to the SPCM reconstruction of this movement as performed byJohannes Wildner and the Westphalia New Philharmonic Orchestra. And it is fantastic.
I incidentally have this recording on order.
sjlevine34 9 months ago
The magnificient "original" Bruckner Chorale is just not enough to make this finale sound authentic. Yes there is other dissonant,fragmented Bruckner music , more akin to the very early symphonies, but most of this is not of the quality we have heard in the previous three movements.I can listen and enjoy this "finale" by itself. But not as a part of the Bruckner 9. Zimmer must of heard the earlier version of this for his inspiration for the final part of his score for The Da Vinci Code.
iduefoscari 11 months ago