You know if the mormons didn't stick their nose where it doesn't belong Prop 8 would not have passed. The real truth is that the Mormons bought prop 8 with 20 million dollars.
This is on the home page of the California Attorney Generals Web site:
The Civil Rights Section works aggressively to protect Californians from discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, ancestry, sex, religion, age, marital status, sexual orientation or disability.
The mission of the Civil Rights Enforcement Section is to work with the public, state, federal and local government agencies, and with civil rights and community groups to identify civil rights issues and vigorously prosecute those who have violated the law, as well as seek the strongest remedies to deter further violations of those laws.
What Jerry Brown puts on the AG Office Website doesnt mean its State or Federal Law. Brown is a Gay Rights activist everyone knows that. He only enforces the Law as it pertains to is own Agenda. He wont Seek the Death Penalty for Cop Killers and he also refused to prosecute Gavin Newsom for breaking a then State Law banning Gay Marriage by using Tax Payer money to pay overtime to Employees performing same sex weddings. Very Illegal. There still needs to be a defining Law.
I want a S.C. Decision or Law that steates specifically that The Overwhelming Majority of the Scientific Community agrees that Homosexuality is an Innate Condition and not a choice. Thats all I want. I know your gonna say its a choice, heard it. But The only reason that Prop 8 is even an issue is that that case has never been legally made. Its all opinion. I truely dont care either way. But unless that Bio Science is Legally proven im like 53% of Cali voters who say it IS a choice.
Its a huge issue for me because im a Lawyer and I know why Gay Rights have been stuck in Neutral since1997 and I know how it can be turned around. But everyone seems to want to think that composing Utopian epithets about whos "Rights" are being stripped will get things done. While It may make people feel better to demonize the Right, it does nothing for Gay Rights. Prop 8 is not getting overturned and I know why, So why not give it a try, no one else has a better idea. Prove the Genetics.
How does anyone prove the genetics? Do heterosexuals have to prove that they are straight in order to be able to marry?
I think the Right is doing a damn good job of demonizing themselves by attempting to codify their personal religious beliefs into our laws. Ken Starr stated at the oral arguments that "the people" have the right to pass any amendment they want even if it lessens or diminishes a minority's civil rights. Who is supposed to interpret the constitution - "the people" or the SC?
Heteros are not a minority. And Gays are unique group because they are niether a sex nor a race or ethnicity, therefore voting citizens need to know with confidence what exactly homosexuality is. If they dont then they will continue leaning towards thinking its a choice. Every Gay Activist Lobby ive ever read about claims that there are tons of Scientists etc who have the evidence. I Say cool. Bring it all out and make it a legally proven stance but where are they?
Did "the people" have confidence about how interracial marriage would affect society during the era of Perez v. Sharp and Loving v. Virginia?
Until there is a "gay test" there will be no factual scientific evidence. Both sides make claims that are not entirely factual. Some people have a choice and some don't. The only way to know if someone is gay is by "self reporting".
The SC made a decision in May 2008. Who is supposed to interpret what the constitution says - the SC or the people"?
Precedence is being set state by state by state. Iowa's supreme court just ruled in favor of same sex marriage. Massachusetts and also Connecticut. These states are setting powerful precedent. Vermont, who's legislature overturned through majority vote the Republican Governor's veto against same sex marriage. Same sex marriage is now legal in Vermont as well. Vermont's legislatures said "Vermont is not like California who willy nilly changes their constitution and govern's by referendum."
California has a bad rep re: their constitution and how easy it is to pass amendments - by simple majority. LOL
". . .govern by referendum."
That's because we live in a constitutional republic not a democracy. California has been pushing for something close to democracy and it is causing chaos.
jfsfrnd Our Founders knew that the will of the majority was not always for good and that is why they placed checks and balances into the constitution. The old New England state constitutions carry that spirit within them. Representative Democracies are what we are talking about. If you have a pure democracy you have the danger of the tyranny and the chaos of the majority unless there is a check to that danger and that check has to be written into the constitution and interpreted by the courts
You are preaching to the choir. Tell that to the Religious Right and their Christian sheep who voted for Prop 8. They believe they can overturn a Calif SC decision with an amendment by simple majority. They believe the "will of the people" will take precedence over a SC decision. It has been said that Justice Kennard will be the deciding vote. Who knows - she may give them what they want to teach them a lesson. I hope she doesn't. The will be chaos if she does.
As far as those "unchangeable minorities" - where is the SC decision or law that deals with the scientific proof of ethnic or racial background? When Perez v. Sharp was passed, Mexicans were classified as "white" in the US.
Absolutely!!! Many Evangelicals and other extremists have a need to blame someone and demonize them for societies ills. They've always got to have a devil to fulfill their sick fantasy. "Oh it's the gay's fault. They're ruining marriage and our civilization." You should see what the "ex-gay" group Exodus International is involved with in Uganda. They support Uganda's leaders when they say that it was the gays that were responsible for the genocide that happened there. Inexcusable.
BTW there is a great group of Evangelical Christians who do not agree with the popular Evangelical interpretation of the anti-gay clobber passages that are used to clobber gay people over the head. They are found at ECWR dott ORG
I awakened to it just like any young man awakens to his sexual attractions in his early adolescence only my attraction was toward guys. Mom and dad always knew I was different than the rest of the family and they felt they were blessed. I struggled to overcome my attraction for almost 3 decades (counseling, prayer, fasting, etc.) and my orientation was NOT a choice anymore than your attraction was a choice. Nothing changed just as the vast majority can never change their orientation.
Jackson- Jerry Brown could not show up because he no longer wants to be the face of the No on 8 Crowd nor does Gavin Newsom because the both have designs on the Governorship and cant afford to upset the 53%+ that are FOR Prop 8. He is Just a Professional Politician.
Ok Rigger prove it. Prove that your statements here are based in fact. Prove to me that what you are saying is the truth. Show me evidence that he made his decision based on your allegations. You know that conservative ways of thinking are in tatters and that we are headed by an African American man who loves gay people and has proven it to us on more than one occasion. He is the first president who has actually called us out of obscurity into the light and equality of America.
I have never felt that President Obama was a Messianic figure or "the Messiah" but he is a remarkable man with incredible leadership skills, a brilliant mind, a love for his wife and children that is exemplary and we need a leader like him right now. We don't need the negative, "can't attitude" that we have been stuck with over the past 8 years. President Obama is a breath of fresh air for a change.
Jerry Bown was afraid of Ken Starr because he knows how much more Scholarly Starr is about the US Constitution! He is the foremost and most celebrated Contitutional Scholar in America!
First of all Evangelical Christianity chose (quite some time ago) to get involved in and start a culture war which they will find will be their undoing and demise (that brand of Christianity is dying) as our nation is leaving this form of Christianity behind and our nation and our people will become increasingly hostile to a Christianity that starts culture wars. Alan Dershowitz is far more intelligent than Ken Starr. Your list is pretty biased.
You're wrong on both counts! First, according to Bible Prophecy, Biblical Christianity will win in the end! That is a fact as God doesn't lie. Unfortunately, many people in America will die and go to hell because of their rebellion against the God.
Second, It is Ken Starr, Not Mr. Dershowitz that has the experience both in the Courts and in the classroom! Starr was both a U S Appeals judge as well as the Solicitor General for the White House and a Dean of a Law School!
Southernbigot you remind me of the kind of guy who (back in the 50's and 60's ) would have voted and pushed for separate bathrooms and drinking fountains for "colored folks".
The movie MILK starring Sean Penn I've seen twice and the film starts in New York City when he meets his first boyfriend and they move to San Francisco together. Then the story is mostly about his activism and his political aspirations in the city while contrasted with his opposing political figure Dan White. Dan White is the "wonderful Christian and family values" man who murdered him.
Very tragic indeed! Every "True Christian" would agree that Mr. White did not then and does not now represent what Christ and Christianity is all about!
I just hope that the both of them repented of their sins; Milk for his lifestyle and White for his murderous hatred towards another human being in that manner. So sad.
White had hatred on a lot of different levels. He was jealous as well. If you see the move MILK you will see how Harvey tried very hard to work with Mr. White while at the same time being very honest and upfront about himself. Dan White was a very tortured soul. He committed suicide after being released from prison.
Starr wants to EXPAND prop 8 to nullify 18,000 marriages? No he is trying to point out to all the people who obviously failed kindergarden english the phrase IS VALID OR RECOGNIZED. What is so hard to understand about that? Please retake remedial english please. Is means now, in the present. It doesn't mean we pretend the marriages never took place, it just means they are no longer recognized or valid.
Ken Starr doesnt have to power to expand Prop 8 to nullify the Marriages. In reality he is just sating his position. He is smart enought to know you cant go retroactive but he has to get the position of those he represents on record. Dont worry the 18,000 marriages will be upheld but Prop8 will as well. 4-5 Justices are already leaning towards Amendment versus Revision. They know Jerry Brown tampered with the wording to make it a question so they will go by the original ballot wording.
Thank you for that, I didnt realize someone was calling my comments Spam. The reason I know is because I am here covering the hearings and testimony. The Language that Chief Justice George, Justice Carol Corrigan, Justice Moreno, Chin, Werdegar and now Baxter now usues "Potential Rights" instead of "Rights" or "Civil Rights" which is indicative of a shift from Social Reform Issues to Legality. Now they are pretty much deciding on the 18,000 marriages. They wont take the whole 85 days.
Then you have a huge inequality mess to deal with when those 18,000 marriages are upheld and no future same sex marriages are recognized. I predict that those 18,000 plus marriages will be upheld and even if prop 8 stands it won't stand for long as the 18,000 plus will be a wedge that will pry the door wide open for prop 8 to completely collapse in a few years if not sooner.
You may be right, Anything is possible but remmember how many out of towners who cant vote were a part of that number. We got loads of people from over 35 States who came into town for Marriage Certs.
Well said Rigger! I also pointed that out to Jackson. And, you're right about Jerry Brown, as he is a coward and an opportunist. I wouldn't vote for him to be Governor after the crap he has pulled with the Prop 8 thing.
Well you definitely have revealed your GOP CONservative and bigoted worldview. You probably think our current President is leading us to hell too. Your "Biblical Christianity" argument is very telling as well. So your brand of Christianity is more Biblical than the Catholic, the Greek Orthodox, The Coptic Christian or the Armenian Christian Christianity? Who named you the verifier of Biblical Christianity? That is a very very personal issue and thank God it's not up to your judgement.
Wrong again! I do not affiliate with any political party as Iprefer to be free to think in consistency with my convictions and values. Yes, I do have a Christian and Biblical worldview.
Yes, Biblical Christianity is more Biblical than the rest of those you mentioned as I know those churches well, especially the Greek Orthodox Church, since I am from a Greek Community! In fact, it is NOT biblical at all!
That is why many Greek people have left and are leaving it in droves. Anymore questions?
Very doubtful that will happen since the Court made a very concise and clear decision last Spring and these individuals had to change their lives dramatically and it is not just to simply throw them "by the wayside" because of a tyrannical vote. The justices will create a provision within the Constitution for these 18,000 plus to protect their marriages. That is only fair and just. You're bigoted, selfish, creepiness is very telling as to how self-centered and mean spirited you are.
Don't hold your breath! What will YOU do when the 18,000 (many of whom was out of State) unions are deemed "Null & void?"
Why do gay people always make this about being "hateful" and the rest of the nonsensical rhetoric they spew? They have no legitimate argument and thus they think that the answer to be heard is to go back to High School tactics!
What a shame and what a pity! why do gay people have the highest sucide rate in America? I think they have mental issues.
Southernbigot you need to get your suicide stats out of current and reputable documents. "High School tactics" LOL This is our lives we are fighting for and until you can at least walk in our shoes for one day (even just try to understand) you don't have a leg to stand on. Go see the movie Milk or rent it when it comes out so your family and neighbors won't see you coming out of the theatre with a red face because they saw you going out of a gay movie. The movie might enlighten you.
My stats are correct! The gay community has a very high percentage of sucides. Why is that? Because people are "depressed?" Could it really be that they know in their heart of hearts that something is wrong and rather than repent, they try to make God accept their lifestyle?
From where I stand, that seems to be their problem. God made you either a woman or a man and He will hold you accoutnable to live as He created you! Stop making excuses; find out why you like people of the same gender.
"Lifestyle" hmmm another culture war buzzword that attempts to pigeonhole gay people into one group when we are just as diverse a group as our heterosexual brothers and sisters. Also it is gay youth who have a high percentage (according to the APA and other reputable stats) of suicides not adult gay people. The more we embrace ourselves (including society and our families being more understanding and accepting) the more healthy and strong we become as individuals and as a community.
Also rent the movie (or download it) entitled Prayers for Bobby starring S. Weaver. That movie is another true story that just might enlighten your narrow little mind about the truth of our story. Our stories are not that unlike the stories of the African American struggle and yes we have been tortured, killed, murdered en masse, etc. You might look very very deeply into the mirror and seriously question why you feel the way you do about gay people. From whom and where did you learn this?
I've already seen that movie and for that young man, it was unfortunate that he took the road that "HE" did. His Mother was right to tell him his lifestyle was unnatural and wrong.
I have no ill feelings towards gay people; but I have much respect and honor for the God-ordained institution of the family and of marriage! That's the single and only motivation that I have for letting my voice be heard when it comes to gays trying to force their values on the rest of society!
You saw the movie Milk? His mother isn't even mentioned in that movie. When you use words like "God ordained", etc. that's when you lose more and more of your credibility because I do not agree with you.
What you are missing friend is I don't need you to validate the Bible's or my position on homosexuality or gay marriage! The Truth will always stand no matter who doesn't like it.
Yep the truth will always stand and so will what happened in ancient history and the Bible is an empty closet. There was no word for homosexuality and what Paul saw on his journey's was vastly different than the kind of world your preachers and pastors raised you to believe it was. Tradition and truth are two vastly different things.
Jackson: I will at least give it to you for trying! The truth stands and it speaks loud and clear. Homosexuality and what it represents is all over the bible, and it is ALWAYS spoken of in condemnational terms and descriptions. Sorry, just the facts!
SouthernGent55 - WHERE in any of our laws does it state that we are to refer/defer to the Bible when making legal decisions on the rights of individuals.
SouthernGent55 - "Homosexuality. . .all over the bible."
The term "homosexual" was coined in the late 1800's. The biblical passages refer to promiscuous behaviors. Where does the Bible condemn a same-sex couple in a monogamous relationship?
The Bible is older than the "1800's", and it calls the homosexuals "Sodomites". The Bible condemns all sexual perversions, especially homosexuality as God calls it "The Detestable Thing!"
Where does the Bible condemn gay coupls? It doesn't condemns "coupls" because the Bible doesn't acknowledge such a relationship!
Jesus proves that in Matthew 19:4-6, and Paul proves it in Ephesians 5:21-33. The Bible very forcefully condemns Sodomy and homosexuality (Romans 1:26-28). God will judge gays!
There is no such thing as "sodomy" as your preachers have interpreted it for a long time. Not very sholarly. The Savior condemns exactly what the real Sodom was about and that was pure greed, selfishness, hatred for the poor. If you want to get into a bible debate I'll take you down man. I am sick and tired of the lies that have been used to harm God's gay and lesbian children.
Yes, there is such a thing as Sodomy, Homosexuality, homosexuals, and the like. you can't hang with me as far as the Bible is concerned because you are clearly Biblically illiterate!
Gay theology tries to downplay and dismiss the clear condemnation of their lifestyle. the Apostle Jude speaks very clearly that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not "inhospitality" as gays want to believe to their own demise, but it was destroyed because of sexual perversion (Jude 1:7).
Explain to me why Lot offered to give his daughters to men who were supposedly homosexual. Also are you even aware of phallic aggression in the ancient world (just old fashioned rape as a symbol of conquering) and what it means in these ancient texts? Also have you even begun to consider the fact that the Classical Jews (the people who gave you that book) might be the ones to enquire as to the meaning of this text not your preachers who are steeped in tradition?
You actually make my point! Lot offers his daughters, but because these men were Sodomites and homosexuals, they wanted "MEN", not girls! You make the point. Thank You!
SouthernGent55 - Where is this "definition of marriage" located in our laws - the one that defines what constitutes a family and states that the definition does not change?
And, while you are at it - where in the CA constitution does it state that the "will of the people" can toss out a state Supreme Court decision on a civil rights issue in a simple majority by amendment?
Your religious marriage is ratified by the state but the state cannot marry you religiously anymore than your State Representative has the authority vested in him by the state to baptize you. Gay people wish to have our loves and lives supported by state sanction, not religious sanction by your church. That means that we wish to have all of the secular rights that a state sanctioned marriage gives. Your religion and many religions have defined marriage the way you have but not all of them.
The Constitution of California has been changed! The people have the right and authority to make such a change even as the female Justice acknowledged!
Remember, you can't "Willy Nilly overturn the Will of the People". The People of this State has the power to amend the Constitution by Ballot Initiative! Wow! What a Truth!
SouthernGent55 - don't boast so soon. This is the first time a Supreme Court decision has been overturned by a simple amendment.
"The People of this State has the power to amend the Constitution by Ballot Initiative! "
Before or after a Supreme Court decision. You obviously don't understand the implications of this if it stands. It would mean that any minority could have their rights stripped from them by a simple majority vote of the citizens.
First, you have a major problem: Gays are NOT considered a "Minority Group" in America! Second, the people will ALWAYS have the authority to amend their Constitution, both at the State level and the Federal level....as it should be!
First, isn't gender and sexual orientation protected in CA?
Second, in the case of the rights of individuals? Are "the people" supposed to be able to interpret law? Are "the people" supposed to understand case law and all previous court rulings? Are we just going to throw the SC out and let "the people" decide who has rights and who doesn't and which rights those are? Are "the people" going to be allowed to throw out any SC decision by simple amendment if they don't agree with it?
The "PEOPLE" have the authority to change, amend, and revise their Constitution, not the Courts! That is the American Way; remember, we are a "DEMOCRACY!"
If you guys watch the actual footage of the hearings you will see find that many of the rights allowed and recognized to gay married couples are still recognized and upheld after the passage of prop 8. What they mostly changed is simply the name "marriage" to be between a man and a woman. That is the basis of the argument. Anderson Cooper and his stupid legal analyst fail to bring that up. and yes the amendment is well within the state constitution
"Many of the rights" including that gays will not be able to call their relationship a "marriage" is not equality. Gays want equality.
If you watched the hearings you will also recognize that there is a problem with setting a precedence of "the people" overturning a SC decision. This could open up an issue with "the people" being able to strip the rights from any minority they personally don't like by a simple majority by amendment.
Yup. This was not an overturning of the supreme court. This was additional amendment passed with a more clear language which was at hand. If were gonna quote the hearings then you should obviously know that it doesnt matter what gays want. They are trying to redefine the state constitution. and whether the amendment is constitutional.
The hearings were 3 hours long and many things were said. Go ahead and quote.
I think that both of you are hearing what you want to hear and not listening to all sides of this issue.
Give me one example of when a SC decision on a civil rights issue was ever overturned by a simple majority by amendment. Why can't "the people" overturn any SC decision in a simple majority by amendment? Why wasn't Perez v. Sharp, (interracial marriage case) overturned?
Perez vs. Sharp couldnt get overturned because Ethnic Minorities are LEGALLY recognized as "unchangebale" Minorities. In other word it has been Legally established that Women and Ethnic Minorities (Blacks, Asians, Latinos etc) but it hasnt been Proven (LEGALLY, stay with me) that Homosexuality is not a choice. Until it is proven in court somewhere, Civil Rights accomplishment always be a problem. Just equating Gays and Blacks every chance doesnt make it true.
and since being gay is having so much trouble being passed off as a civil liberty, then it can't receive protections as a minority as you said. Which makes this amendment totally constitutional because it compromises no civil rights or liberties defined by the state. If CA wanted to amend that donuts should be illegal then it could pass because it has as much protection in the constitution as does gay marriage.
headslo - donuts could be illegal if they are illegal for everyone. If a law was passed that donuts are only illegal for homosexuals but legal for everyone else, that law would be unconstitutional in CA.
The answer is a resounding NO! Being gay is not a "special" protected class of people in California. and nor should it be as it is clearly a choice that one makes!
I'm not sure of the naem of the female Justice who said it, simply because I don't deem it to be important; what is significant however is that she said it! I'll let you go and look "HER" up!
If the SC lets Prop 8 pass, then "the people" will be able to vote away the rights of any protected minority including religious rights, so good luck. I will laugh when you are not longer allowed to pray in public or proselytize. Maybe "SHE" will vote in favor of Prop 8 to teach all of you a good lesson of what it will be like to live in a Democracy. We have a republic - representative government - where we hire representatives to create and interpret our laws, not a democracy.
Actually you need to go to the Jews about this verse and ask them what they mean. They'll give far more ancient and original answers than your pastors who are full of Medieval tradition will give you. The "strange flesh" can mean a lot of things including having sex with strangers. It's ancient meaning can mean a lot of different things.
SouthernGent55 - You're right it doesn't, because monogamous same-sex relationships were not formally recognized until the late 1800's when the term "homosexual" was coined. So all of your self-interpreted 2000 + year old passages mean nothing.
Besides you didn't answer my question:
WHERE in any of our laws does it state that we are to refer/defer to the Bible when making legal decisions on the rights of individuals?
None of our laws does it state we are to refer/defer to the Bible in making legal decisions on the rights of individuals. Our Constitution was created with a strong wall between Church (religion) and the state (government) and this country was NOT set up to be a Christian nation but to be a haven of protection for all faith's (Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Bahai, etc.) that support basic human rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Jacksonholenativ - I have posted references to the Virginia Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom and also the Autobiography of Thomas Jefferson where he refers to the bill. These "Christian's" don't have any respect for our country, or it's laws. They don't understand that our secular laws also protect their right to religious freedom. Speaking to them is like speaking to a brick wall.
I know it. You definitely might as well talk to a brick wall. Your insight is refreshing. Until any of these people can get into a gay person's skin and walk for a while how in the world can they even begin to comprehend or have any credibility in making such judgments? They don't have a leg to stand on.
Iam right because the Bible ONLY recognizes Marriage between one man and one woman, even as our Lord Jesus affirmed in Matthew 19:4-6! Also, the Apostle Paul and Apostle Peter all define marriage as being between one man and one woman!
You will NEVER win this with the "Gay Logic" you and other gays use to justify your perverted and deviant lifestyle! God will surely judge you. You can't explain Jude 1:7 away because the Scripture clearly states that S &G was filled with "Sexual Perversion!
Ken Starr was a Man among boys & girls! He has set on a Higher Court than any of the State Justices, and that is why they gave him the upmost respect as well as more time than any other Lawyer! The man was simply AWESOME!
I absolutely did, and they were all very weak! Even the Judges said their arguments were weak and in at least one case, one female Judge told one of the Lawyers
that they pretty much didn't have a leg to stand on! Also, the person in Jerry Brown's office ought to be fired! He was perhaps the most unprepared of all of the Lawyers. What a shame.
Brown didn't show up because he knew he was no match for Ken Starr! He clearly was head and shoulders above the rest including the judges!
SouthernGent55 Justices do not make statements like the ones you stated (their arguments were "weak", etc.) as that would be very unprofessional. They grilled Ken Starr very strongly just like they did everyone else. The final testimony from the LAMBDA (I believe) lawyer was powerful on equality side. She argued very passionately and clearly. Ken Starr is an incredibly arrogant man. He could not answer the question about the 18,000 plus marriages and how they were to be dealt with fairly.
The word "weak" was simply my layman's term for those who would seek to understand. Mr. Starr is not arrogant man, and he answered very clearly the 18,000 so-called "marriages" by stating the wording that says "Is recognized", and that statement will be the death nail to those unions!
Again, the gay community always have a problem with people who opposes their lifetyle, and they cannot admit when their representatives are weak in defending them as were these Lawyers representing their cause!
I find it Very interesting that anyone who disagrees with anything the Gay Lobby says does or believes in gets a Knee Jerk reaction as being a Hate filled Biggot. It is now to the point where you cant even remotely disagree with anything the Gay Lobby Says or your a Big Jerk. If the Gay Lobby says the Rams will win the Superbowl next year or the Giants will win the World Series and you say they probably wont you will still be a big Jerk because you cant disagree with them. its not allowed,
Well said! The gay community wants to intimadate people into sympathizing with their cause, and thus they will say and do anything to get a hearing. As for me, I don't give a darn about what they think!
Their lifestyle is perverted, deviant, and outright nasty! As long as I have breath to breathe and a ind to think, I will NEVER see gay relationships as "normal", "Natural", or "acceptable!"
Do I remember them? Yes, of course! Their names are Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon. They had been a couple for 51 years before they got married. Del Martin passed away last summer at the age of 87. Both woman have been politically active in SF since the 50s. Martin was once the president of the National Organization of Women. I have a great deal of respect for both of them.
Let me ask you a question: As a married man, if I find myself being pursued by a very attractive woman do I have a choice as to whether I will be faithful or not?
In other words, according to the Bible, we were all born with a "Sin Nature" and have the propensity and proclivity to sin.
If a woman is agressive and seductive, am I helpless in that situation? Do I tell my wife "Honey, I just couldn't help it because as a man, I'm wired to be attracted to women?"
Yes, you have a choice to be faithful as a married straight man attracted to another woman. But that says absolutely nothing about homosexuality being a choice at all. It just shows your own potential weakness as a husband.
You hav el flunked once again! Even if you believe that one's orientation is "inborn", you still cannot deny that a person has a choice as to whether they will yield to their inclinations.
Again, it is no different if a woman stood before me naked, I STILL have a will and can make a choice as to whether I will sleep with her.
Don't give me that weak "I can't help it" bit, it isn't working! Try repenting, and asking Christ for inner strength to say "No" when those feelings come up.
So are you saying all the gays should simply repress their true feelings until it drives them crazy? It is not a choice, and until you've experience what it is like (which you have not) dont preach.
Why does everyone who feels gay marriage shouldn't be allowed feel so threatened by it? How will it affect you? the gay couples of the world aren't trying to fuck anything up for YOU. Why are people just being so cruel to them for no reason and denying them civil rights?
I am saying gay people are not wild animals driven by instinct, they are human beings created in the image and likeness of God, and therefore, they have the ability to use their volition and choose to yield or resist their urges!
Marriage is between a man and a woman, plain and simple. I want my three grand children to grow seeing a male-female relationship, not some perverted facsimilie of one!
Why don't you guys just REPENT! That will settle it. Try repenting and asking Christ for help!
That wouldn't happen because I am a man who is married toa woman...the way God planned it! Repenting does everything! It allows you to confess your sin, turn from them and ask Christ for a new life!
He has promised to transform every sincere seeker. Why don't you take Him at His word? Yes, gay relationships are VERY perverted!
God did not intend for one man to poke another man in the Butt! the anus is not designed for sexual penetration. Everybody knows that in the medical field. Try repenting
As a matter of fact, they shouldn't be engaging in anal sex as the anus is not designed for sexual activity. Second, even if you disagreed with that assessment, you still can't justify the deviant and perverted act of two persons of the same gender having sexual relations; the two are not the same!
I can assure you that anybody who looks at the human anatomy, can plainly see that two men have the same thing, so why would they want to engage in something that is perverted? Gay sex is nasty!
My god, I didn't think ignorant hicks like you still existed. Its unfortunate, really.
Why does gay marriage bother you so much? Do you think they would be such a threat to your life personally that you feel the need to take away their own God-give (yes, GOD given) rights as human beings?
If you take away their rights, then you have no right to complain about them affecting you or if your rights are taken away.
Ignorant? You are the zenith of ignorance! Anybody who thinks it's "normal" for one man to poke another man in the butt is as ignorant as they come!
I can assure you that Gays do not have a "God given right to marry" as He has already defined the institution that He introduced to mankind: one man and one woman for life! (Matthew 19:4-6) Sorry, just the cold facts!
No, you're wrong! the idea of marriage is not man's idea, it is God's! Therefore, God alone has the authority to define marriage and He has: One Man and One Woman for Life!
It is always amusing that people think that they can live as if there is no higher authority to whom they are accountable. Trust me, you and the reast of humanity will stand before the Ruler of the Universe someday and give an account of the life you have lived.
Gay "marriage" is an abberation! God does not honor it!
SouthernGent55 - if marriage is between one man and one woman for life, what are you going to do about those pesky secular divorce laws?
Where does it say "gay marriage is an aberration" in the Bible?
It is always amusing that people think that they can "play God" and ramrod over everyone they don't agree with. Ditto about "standing before the Ruler of the Universe. . ."'
Yes, Marriage is a God-Ordained Institution that is defined as between One Man and One Woman for Life! Both the Genesis account and our Lord Jesus affirms this fact in Matthew 19:4-6.
The ONLY "Marriage" that God honors is the marriage He has defined! Therefore, gay people cannot get married as it is an abberation and a perversion!
Jerry Brown is the Biggest Idiot of all. He had the chance to get Prop 8 Audited for Leagilty By the Cali High Court PRIOR to the vote but he didnt because he thought it would lose after he changed the 14 words to make it a Rights Isuue. Now that it passed he is trying to have his cake and eat it too. HE messed up now it will be upheld.
Typical Liberal response, anyone who disagrees with the Lib Agenda is a Hater, a Biggot etc etc etc. But it still loses. AND attacking those that disagree is even more stupid because in a Democracy you NEED those votes. When you call them idoits Haters and Biggots They just run away from you. But dont take MY word for it, BTW hows the whole Prop 8 thing going? Not good? Wonder why>
Don't you think it's kinda hateful to be so callous about an 87 year old woman's death, as Southern Gent was below. I can't imagine what it's like for her partner of 50 years and her daughter to lose her. What kind of person, if not a hater, makes comments like that? No sweetie pie, that's for sure.
Ken Starr did an outstanding job arguing for Proposition 8. He was masterful.
Based on the articles I have been reading and the commentary of talking heads, on both sides of this issue, it appears that the court will likely uphold Proposition 8.
It will be a Constitutional victory for the good citizens of CA and the moral majority throughout the United States.
He was clearly a "man among boys!" However, no one could have expected anything less from a Real Professional! This man has already served as a Superior Judge and simply knows his stuff!
I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that Prop 8 will be upheld! Jerry Brown's office was so dumb trying to play both roles that, they actually helped Prop8 supporters!
Starr was charming, gentile, highly skilled and intelligent, and very cool and confident of his position! The others had no authority!
Though I am ardently in favor of marriage equality, I agree that Ken Starr did a good job. I would in no way call the others amateurs. Stewart and Minter made great arguments about Prop 8 being a revision of the constitution, which clearly protects historically discriminated groups. Don't be so happy about Starr's success in this situation. One day he might be arguing to take some dearly held right of yours away.
You would make that statement due to the fact you were not in the Courtroom; however, I was! Ken Starr was clearly a man above boys! The others were not prepared.
Case in point: The Black lawyer from the NAACP was awful! The assistant in Brown's office was also awful!
Everybody else were put on the defense by the tough questions from the Judges. Starr was the ONLY lawyer who was cool, calm, and collected.
He knew his stuff! He was on it. Brown didn't show up because he was a coward!
Gay people do not have a "Right" to be married. That is a very weak point of their case. That is what the Judges threw out to them to prepare them for their next defeat!
Marriage has always been and will always be honored as a sacred God-Ordained Instiution in the eyes of Almighty God!
The Family is made up of a Man, his wife, and children. IT takes a man and a woman to bear children. That is how you got here! That is how every human being, past and present will get here. No hard feelings.
I guess you have to tell it to Ken Starr for being awesome! And, for Jerry Brown being a whimp, that he didn't even show up for the hearing! Why didn't he? He knew he was no match for Ken Starr.
The court isn't throwing out gay people's right to be married at all. They are supporting a proposition that was passed by a majority of Californians. Prior to Prop 8 passing, the same court made a ruling that made gay marriage legal. The vote was 4 to 3 on that. So at least four of them are in favor of extending the right to marry to same-sex couples. FYI.
So to defend marriage, they're going to destroy thousands of marriages. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
And for a supposed legal expert, you'd think Mr. Starr would be aware of Article I, Section 9 of the U. S. Constitution, which states that no bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed, or translated from legalese, that no law shall be enacted retroactively.
Ken Starr is doing the correct thing! Marriage is between one man and one woman for life! The people of California, me included, spoked loud and clear as to what we believe marriage is and how it is to be defined!
yeah this entire thing about prop 8 wasnt about hate it was about marriages & weather or not gays should or shouldnt be married and to let it B called traditional marriage when really its not! but no on 8 supporters tunrned prop 8 into a hate, when prop 8 passed by, what. 2% - 3% idk thats when the no supporters started all the drama and rumors and many more. Thats why if you look up prop 8 up on this jank most of it would B the negative things about prop 8 and the yes on prop 8 ppl!am i rite!
You know if the mormons didn't stick their nose where it doesn't belong Prop 8 would not have passed. The real truth is that the Mormons bought prop 8 with 20 million dollars.
JPRamon68 1 year ago
California can do much better than this. I hope and pray that this is nullified invalid. I'm pretty sure that we'll get our answers come June.
pulseofthemaggotgirl 2 years ago
Looks like we'll get our answer Thursday.
bearchewtoy75 2 years ago
This is on the home page of the California Attorney Generals Web site:
The Civil Rights Section works aggressively to protect Californians from discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, ancestry, sex, religion, age, marital status, sexual orientation or disability.
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
continued:
The mission of the Civil Rights Enforcement Section is to work with the public, state, federal and local government agencies, and with civil rights and community groups to identify civil rights issues and vigorously prosecute those who have violated the law, as well as seek the strongest remedies to deter further violations of those laws.
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
What Jerry Brown puts on the AG Office Website doesnt mean its State or Federal Law. Brown is a Gay Rights activist everyone knows that. He only enforces the Law as it pertains to is own Agenda. He wont Seek the Death Penalty for Cop Killers and he also refused to prosecute Gavin Newsom for breaking a then State Law banning Gay Marriage by using Tax Payer money to pay overtime to Employees performing same sex weddings. Very Illegal. There still needs to be a defining Law.
Rigger4100 2 years ago
What exact law do you want? Go to the CA Administrative Code and Dept of Justice websites and type in "sexual orientation".
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
I want a S.C. Decision or Law that steates specifically that The Overwhelming Majority of the Scientific Community agrees that Homosexuality is an Innate Condition and not a choice. Thats all I want. I know your gonna say its a choice, heard it. But The only reason that Prop 8 is even an issue is that that case has never been legally made. Its all opinion. I truely dont care either way. But unless that Bio Science is Legally proven im like 53% of Cali voters who say it IS a choice.
Rigger4100 2 years ago
It is a choice for some, but not for others. So why is this such a huge issue for you? Why does it LEGALLY matter if it is a choice or not?
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
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jfsfrnd 2 years ago
Its a huge issue for me because im a Lawyer and I know why Gay Rights have been stuck in Neutral since1997 and I know how it can be turned around. But everyone seems to want to think that composing Utopian epithets about whos "Rights" are being stripped will get things done. While It may make people feel better to demonize the Right, it does nothing for Gay Rights. Prop 8 is not getting overturned and I know why, So why not give it a try, no one else has a better idea. Prove the Genetics.
Rigger4100 2 years ago
How does anyone prove the genetics? Do heterosexuals have to prove that they are straight in order to be able to marry?
I think the Right is doing a damn good job of demonizing themselves by attempting to codify their personal religious beliefs into our laws. Ken Starr stated at the oral arguments that "the people" have the right to pass any amendment they want even if it lessens or diminishes a minority's civil rights. Who is supposed to interpret the constitution - "the people" or the SC?
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
Heteros are not a minority. And Gays are unique group because they are niether a sex nor a race or ethnicity, therefore voting citizens need to know with confidence what exactly homosexuality is. If they dont then they will continue leaning towards thinking its a choice. Every Gay Activist Lobby ive ever read about claims that there are tons of Scientists etc who have the evidence. I Say cool. Bring it all out and make it a legally proven stance but where are they?
Rigger4100 2 years ago
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jfsfrnd 2 years ago
Did "the people" have confidence about how interracial marriage would affect society during the era of Perez v. Sharp and Loving v. Virginia?
Until there is a "gay test" there will be no factual scientific evidence. Both sides make claims that are not entirely factual. Some people have a choice and some don't. The only way to know if someone is gay is by "self reporting".
The SC made a decision in May 2008. Who is supposed to interpret what the constitution says - the SC or the people"?
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
Precedence is being set state by state by state. Iowa's supreme court just ruled in favor of same sex marriage. Massachusetts and also Connecticut. These states are setting powerful precedent. Vermont, who's legislature overturned through majority vote the Republican Governor's veto against same sex marriage. Same sex marriage is now legal in Vermont as well. Vermont's legislatures said "Vermont is not like California who willy nilly changes their constitution and govern's by referendum."
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
California has a bad rep re: their constitution and how easy it is to pass amendments - by simple majority. LOL
". . .govern by referendum."
That's because we live in a constitutional republic not a democracy. California has been pushing for something close to democracy and it is causing chaos.
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
jfsfrnd Our Founders knew that the will of the majority was not always for good and that is why they placed checks and balances into the constitution. The old New England state constitutions carry that spirit within them. Representative Democracies are what we are talking about. If you have a pure democracy you have the danger of the tyranny and the chaos of the majority unless there is a check to that danger and that check has to be written into the constitution and interpreted by the courts
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
You are preaching to the choir. Tell that to the Religious Right and their Christian sheep who voted for Prop 8. They believe they can overturn a Calif SC decision with an amendment by simple majority. They believe the "will of the people" will take precedence over a SC decision. It has been said that Justice Kennard will be the deciding vote. Who knows - she may give them what they want to teach them a lesson. I hope she doesn't. The will be chaos if she does.
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
jfsfrnd I'm with you on all of this. California is like a different nation in some ways. The Governator even thinks so. ;)
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
Do you have an opinion on how the SC is going to rule on Prop 8?
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
As far as those "unchangeable minorities" - where is the SC decision or law that deals with the scientific proof of ethnic or racial background? When Perez v. Sharp was passed, Mexicans were classified as "white" in the US.
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
Prop 8 should be struck down. It's a disgrace. It's pure sanctimony and scapegoating.
pulvinosophist 3 years ago 5
Absolutely!!! Many Evangelicals and other extremists have a need to blame someone and demonize them for societies ills. They've always got to have a devil to fulfill their sick fantasy. "Oh it's the gay's fault. They're ruining marriage and our civilization." You should see what the "ex-gay" group Exodus International is involved with in Uganda. They support Uganda's leaders when they say that it was the gays that were responsible for the genocide that happened there. Inexcusable.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago 2
BTW there is a great group of Evangelical Christians who do not agree with the popular Evangelical interpretation of the anti-gay clobber passages that are used to clobber gay people over the head. They are found at ECWR dott ORG
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Why are you gay? Who told you you were? Why do you choose to remain that way? Questions for earnest reflection.
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
I awakened to it just like any young man awakens to his sexual attractions in his early adolescence only my attraction was toward guys. Mom and dad always knew I was different than the rest of the family and they felt they were blessed. I struggled to overcome my attraction for almost 3 decades (counseling, prayer, fasting, etc.) and my orientation was NOT a choice anymore than your attraction was a choice. Nothing changed just as the vast majority can never change their orientation.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
If only Jerry Brown had been there at the hearing. He would have argued very powerfully and given Ken Starr a run for his religulus money.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Jackson- Jerry Brown could not show up because he no longer wants to be the face of the No on 8 Crowd nor does Gavin Newsom because the both have designs on the Governorship and cant afford to upset the 53%+ that are FOR Prop 8. He is Just a Professional Politician.
Rigger4100 3 years ago
Ok Rigger prove it. Prove that your statements here are based in fact. Prove to me that what you are saying is the truth. Show me evidence that he made his decision based on your allegations. You know that conservative ways of thinking are in tatters and that we are headed by an African American man who loves gay people and has proven it to us on more than one occasion. He is the first president who has actually called us out of obscurity into the light and equality of America.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Jackson you sound like a commercial for the Obama Campaign. Unfortunately you will soon find out hes not the Messiah you think he is.
Rigger4100 3 years ago
I have never felt that President Obama was a Messianic figure or "the Messiah" but he is a remarkable man with incredible leadership skills, a brilliant mind, a love for his wife and children that is exemplary and we need a leader like him right now. We don't need the negative, "can't attitude" that we have been stuck with over the past 8 years. President Obama is a breath of fresh air for a change.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Jerry Bown was afraid of Ken Starr because he knows how much more Scholarly Starr is about the US Constitution! He is the foremost and most celebrated Contitutional Scholar in America!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
First of all Evangelical Christianity chose (quite some time ago) to get involved in and start a culture war which they will find will be their undoing and demise (that brand of Christianity is dying) as our nation is leaving this form of Christianity behind and our nation and our people will become increasingly hostile to a Christianity that starts culture wars. Alan Dershowitz is far more intelligent than Ken Starr. Your list is pretty biased.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
You're wrong on both counts! First, according to Bible Prophecy, Biblical Christianity will win in the end! That is a fact as God doesn't lie. Unfortunately, many people in America will die and go to hell because of their rebellion against the God.
Second, It is Ken Starr, Not Mr. Dershowitz that has the experience both in the Courts and in the classroom! Starr was both a U S Appeals judge as well as the Solicitor General for the White House and a Dean of a Law School!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
Southernbigot you remind me of the kind of guy who (back in the 50's and 60's ) would have voted and pushed for separate bathrooms and drinking fountains for "colored folks".
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Really? Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE?
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
The movie MILK starring Sean Penn I've seen twice and the film starts in New York City when he meets his first boyfriend and they move to San Francisco together. Then the story is mostly about his activism and his political aspirations in the city while contrasted with his opposing political figure Dan White. Dan White is the "wonderful Christian and family values" man who murdered him.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Very tragic indeed! Every "True Christian" would agree that Mr. White did not then and does not now represent what Christ and Christianity is all about!
I just hope that the both of them repented of their sins; Milk for his lifestyle and White for his murderous hatred towards another human being in that manner. So sad.
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
White had hatred on a lot of different levels. He was jealous as well. If you see the move MILK you will see how Harvey tried very hard to work with Mr. White while at the same time being very honest and upfront about himself. Dan White was a very tortured soul. He committed suicide after being released from prison.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Starr wants to EXPAND prop 8 to nullify 18,000 marriages? No he is trying to point out to all the people who obviously failed kindergarden english the phrase IS VALID OR RECOGNIZED. What is so hard to understand about that? Please retake remedial english please. Is means now, in the present. It doesn't mean we pretend the marriages never took place, it just means they are no longer recognized or valid.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Lucario1856 - Ken Starr is not going to make the final decision. Have you heard all of the oral arguments?
jfsfrnd 3 years ago
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Rigger4100 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Ken Starr doesnt have to power to expand Prop 8 to nullify the Marriages. In reality he is just sating his position. He is smart enought to know you cant go retroactive but he has to get the position of those he represents on record. Dont worry the 18,000 marriages will be upheld but Prop8 will as well. 4-5 Justices are already leaning towards Amendment versus Revision. They know Jerry Brown tampered with the wording to make it a question so they will go by the original ballot wording.
Rigger4100 3 years ago
Rigger4100 - "4-5 Justices are already leaning towards Amendment versus Revision"
How do you know that? It has only been 1 week since the oral arguments. The CSC has 85 more days to make a decision.
jfsfrnd 3 years ago
Rigger4100's comment is not spam. It is his/her opinion.
jfsfrnd 3 years ago
Thank you for that, I didnt realize someone was calling my comments Spam. The reason I know is because I am here covering the hearings and testimony. The Language that Chief Justice George, Justice Carol Corrigan, Justice Moreno, Chin, Werdegar and now Baxter now usues "Potential Rights" instead of "Rights" or "Civil Rights" which is indicative of a shift from Social Reform Issues to Legality. Now they are pretty much deciding on the 18,000 marriages. They wont take the whole 85 days.
Rigger4100 3 years ago
Then you have a huge inequality mess to deal with when those 18,000 marriages are upheld and no future same sex marriages are recognized. I predict that those 18,000 plus marriages will be upheld and even if prop 8 stands it won't stand for long as the 18,000 plus will be a wedge that will pry the door wide open for prop 8 to completely collapse in a few years if not sooner.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
You may be right, Anything is possible but remmember how many out of towners who cant vote were a part of that number. We got loads of people from over 35 States who came into town for Marriage Certs.
Rigger4100 3 years ago
Well said Rigger! I also pointed that out to Jackson. And, you're right about Jerry Brown, as he is a coward and an opportunist. I wouldn't vote for him to be Governor after the crap he has pulled with the Prop 8 thing.
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
Well you definitely have revealed your GOP CONservative and bigoted worldview. You probably think our current President is leading us to hell too. Your "Biblical Christianity" argument is very telling as well. So your brand of Christianity is more Biblical than the Catholic, the Greek Orthodox, The Coptic Christian or the Armenian Christian Christianity? Who named you the verifier of Biblical Christianity? That is a very very personal issue and thank God it's not up to your judgement.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Wrong again! I do not affiliate with any political party as Iprefer to be free to think in consistency with my convictions and values. Yes, I do have a Christian and Biblical worldview.
Yes, Biblical Christianity is more Biblical than the rest of those you mentioned as I know those churches well, especially the Greek Orthodox Church, since I am from a Greek Community! In fact, it is NOT biblical at all!
That is why many Greek people have left and are leaving it in droves. Anymore questions?
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
The 18,000 will fall by the wayside! The wording is very clear: "Only marriage between a man and a woman IS RECOGNIZED in the State of California!
Not will be recognized, but "IS RECOGNIZED". Sorry, just the cold facts!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
Very doubtful that will happen since the Court made a very concise and clear decision last Spring and these individuals had to change their lives dramatically and it is not just to simply throw them "by the wayside" because of a tyrannical vote. The justices will create a provision within the Constitution for these 18,000 plus to protect their marriages. That is only fair and just. You're bigoted, selfish, creepiness is very telling as to how self-centered and mean spirited you are.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Don't hold your breath! What will YOU do when the 18,000 (many of whom was out of State) unions are deemed "Null & void?"
Why do gay people always make this about being "hateful" and the rest of the nonsensical rhetoric they spew? They have no legitimate argument and thus they think that the answer to be heard is to go back to High School tactics!
What a shame and what a pity! why do gay people have the highest sucide rate in America? I think they have mental issues.
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
Southernbigot you need to get your suicide stats out of current and reputable documents. "High School tactics" LOL This is our lives we are fighting for and until you can at least walk in our shoes for one day (even just try to understand) you don't have a leg to stand on. Go see the movie Milk or rent it when it comes out so your family and neighbors won't see you coming out of the theatre with a red face because they saw you going out of a gay movie. The movie might enlighten you.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
My stats are correct! The gay community has a very high percentage of sucides. Why is that? Because people are "depressed?" Could it really be that they know in their heart of hearts that something is wrong and rather than repent, they try to make God accept their lifestyle?
From where I stand, that seems to be their problem. God made you either a woman or a man and He will hold you accoutnable to live as He created you! Stop making excuses; find out why you like people of the same gender.
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
"Lifestyle" hmmm another culture war buzzword that attempts to pigeonhole gay people into one group when we are just as diverse a group as our heterosexual brothers and sisters. Also it is gay youth who have a high percentage (according to the APA and other reputable stats) of suicides not adult gay people. The more we embrace ourselves (including society and our families being more understanding and accepting) the more healthy and strong we become as individuals and as a community.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Also rent the movie (or download it) entitled Prayers for Bobby starring S. Weaver. That movie is another true story that just might enlighten your narrow little mind about the truth of our story. Our stories are not that unlike the stories of the African American struggle and yes we have been tortured, killed, murdered en masse, etc. You might look very very deeply into the mirror and seriously question why you feel the way you do about gay people. From whom and where did you learn this?
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
I've already seen that movie and for that young man, it was unfortunate that he took the road that "HE" did. His Mother was right to tell him his lifestyle was unnatural and wrong.
I have no ill feelings towards gay people; but I have much respect and honor for the God-ordained institution of the family and of marriage! That's the single and only motivation that I have for letting my voice be heard when it comes to gays trying to force their values on the rest of society!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
You saw the movie Milk? His mother isn't even mentioned in that movie. When you use words like "God ordained", etc. that's when you lose more and more of your credibility because I do not agree with you.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
What you are missing friend is I don't need you to validate the Bible's or my position on homosexuality or gay marriage! The Truth will always stand no matter who doesn't like it.
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
Yep the truth will always stand and so will what happened in ancient history and the Bible is an empty closet. There was no word for homosexuality and what Paul saw on his journey's was vastly different than the kind of world your preachers and pastors raised you to believe it was. Tradition and truth are two vastly different things.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago 2
Jackson: I will at least give it to you for trying! The truth stands and it speaks loud and clear. Homosexuality and what it represents is all over the bible, and it is ALWAYS spoken of in condemnational terms and descriptions. Sorry, just the facts!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
SouthernGent55 - WHERE in any of our laws does it state that we are to refer/defer to the Bible when making legal decisions on the rights of individuals.
jfsfrnd 3 years ago
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jfsfrnd 3 years ago
SouthernGent55 - "Homosexuality. . .all over the bible."
The term "homosexual" was coined in the late 1800's. The biblical passages refer to promiscuous behaviors. Where does the Bible condemn a same-sex couple in a monogamous relationship?
jfsfrnd 3 years ago
The Bible is older than the "1800's", and it calls the homosexuals "Sodomites". The Bible condemns all sexual perversions, especially homosexuality as God calls it "The Detestable Thing!"
Where does the Bible condemn gay coupls? It doesn't condemns "coupls" because the Bible doesn't acknowledge such a relationship!
Jesus proves that in Matthew 19:4-6, and Paul proves it in Ephesians 5:21-33. The Bible very forcefully condemns Sodomy and homosexuality (Romans 1:26-28). God will judge gays!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
There is no such thing as "sodomy" as your preachers have interpreted it for a long time. Not very sholarly. The Savior condemns exactly what the real Sodom was about and that was pure greed, selfishness, hatred for the poor. If you want to get into a bible debate I'll take you down man. I am sick and tired of the lies that have been used to harm God's gay and lesbian children.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Yes, there is such a thing as Sodomy, Homosexuality, homosexuals, and the like. you can't hang with me as far as the Bible is concerned because you are clearly Biblically illiterate!
Gay theology tries to downplay and dismiss the clear condemnation of their lifestyle. the Apostle Jude speaks very clearly that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not "inhospitality" as gays want to believe to their own demise, but it was destroyed because of sexual perversion (Jude 1:7).
No way around this verse!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
Explain to me why Lot offered to give his daughters to men who were supposedly homosexual. Also are you even aware of phallic aggression in the ancient world (just old fashioned rape as a symbol of conquering) and what it means in these ancient texts? Also have you even begun to consider the fact that the Classical Jews (the people who gave you that book) might be the ones to enquire as to the meaning of this text not your preachers who are steeped in tradition?
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
You actually make my point! Lot offers his daughters, but because these men were Sodomites and homosexuals, they wanted "MEN", not girls! You make the point. Thank You!
SouthernGent55 2 years ago
SouthernGent55 - What does any of this have to do with our secular laws and same sex marriage?
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
It has everything to do with it. Gays want us to redefine what marriage and consequently, what the family is.
SouthernGent55 2 years ago
SouthernGent55 - Where is this "definition of marriage" located in our laws - the one that defines what constitutes a family and states that the definition does not change?
And, while you are at it - where in the CA constitution does it state that the "will of the people" can toss out a state Supreme Court decision on a civil rights issue in a simple majority by amendment?
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
Your religious marriage is ratified by the state but the state cannot marry you religiously anymore than your State Representative has the authority vested in him by the state to baptize you. Gay people wish to have our loves and lives supported by state sanction, not religious sanction by your church. That means that we wish to have all of the secular rights that a state sanctioned marriage gives. Your religion and many religions have defined marriage the way you have but not all of them.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
The State cannot redefine marriage either as it is God's idea and design for the family. Sorry, just the facts!
SouthernGent55 2 years ago
SouthernGent55 - You didn't answer my questions. There is no "definition of marriage" that cannot change - just the facts!
If there is - then cite where it is located. And I am not talking about the Bible since legally we don't refer/defer to the Bible to define our laws.
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
The Constitution of California has been changed! The people have the right and authority to make such a change even as the female Justice acknowledged!
Remember, you can't "Willy Nilly overturn the Will of the People". The People of this State has the power to amend the Constitution by Ballot Initiative! Wow! What a Truth!
SouthernGent55 2 years ago
SouthernGent55 - don't boast so soon. This is the first time a Supreme Court decision has been overturned by a simple amendment.
"The People of this State has the power to amend the Constitution by Ballot Initiative! "
Before or after a Supreme Court decision. You obviously don't understand the implications of this if it stands. It would mean that any minority could have their rights stripped from them by a simple majority vote of the citizens.
No sweat off your back - doesn't affect you.
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
First, you have a major problem: Gays are NOT considered a "Minority Group" in America! Second, the people will ALWAYS have the authority to amend their Constitution, both at the State level and the Federal level....as it should be!
SouthernGent55 2 years ago
First, isn't gender and sexual orientation protected in CA?
Second, in the case of the rights of individuals? Are "the people" supposed to be able to interpret law? Are "the people" supposed to understand case law and all previous court rulings? Are we just going to throw the SC out and let "the people" decide who has rights and who doesn't and which rights those are? Are "the people" going to be allowed to throw out any SC decision by simple amendment if they don't agree with it?
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
The "PEOPLE" have the authority to change, amend, and revise their Constitution, not the Courts! That is the American Way; remember, we are a "DEMOCRACY!"
SouthernGent55 2 years ago
Before or after a SC decision. Prop 8 was the first time a SC decision was overturned in a simple majority by amendment.
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
If you guys watch the actual footage of the hearings you will see find that many of the rights allowed and recognized to gay married couples are still recognized and upheld after the passage of prop 8. What they mostly changed is simply the name "marriage" to be between a man and a woman. That is the basis of the argument. Anderson Cooper and his stupid legal analyst fail to bring that up. and yes the amendment is well within the state constitution
headslo 2 years ago
How about Federal rights?
"Many of the rights" including that gays will not be able to call their relationship a "marriage" is not equality. Gays want equality.
If you watched the hearings you will also recognize that there is a problem with setting a precedence of "the people" overturning a SC decision. This could open up an issue with "the people" being able to strip the rights from any minority they personally don't like by a simple majority by amendment.
Is this okay with you?
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
No, what gays really want is "Legitimacy" of their homosexual lifestyle! That is at the top of the game with the gay agenda without question.
SouthernGent55 2 years ago
Yup. This was not an overturning of the supreme court. This was additional amendment passed with a more clear language which was at hand. If were gonna quote the hearings then you should obviously know that it doesnt matter what gays want. They are trying to redefine the state constitution. and whether the amendment is constitutional.
you lose
headslo 2 years ago
headslo - at least you read my post.
The hearings were 3 hours long and many things were said. Go ahead and quote.
I think that both of you are hearing what you want to hear and not listening to all sides of this issue.
Give me one example of when a SC decision on a civil rights issue was ever overturned by a simple majority by amendment. Why can't "the people" overturn any SC decision in a simple majority by amendment? Why wasn't Perez v. Sharp, (interracial marriage case) overturned?
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
Perez vs. Sharp couldnt get overturned because Ethnic Minorities are LEGALLY recognized as "unchangebale" Minorities. In other word it has been Legally established that Women and Ethnic Minorities (Blacks, Asians, Latinos etc) but it hasnt been Proven (LEGALLY, stay with me) that Homosexuality is not a choice. Until it is proven in court somewhere, Civil Rights accomplishment always be a problem. Just equating Gays and Blacks every chance doesnt make it true.
Rigger4100 2 years ago
and since being gay is having so much trouble being passed off as a civil liberty, then it can't receive protections as a minority as you said. Which makes this amendment totally constitutional because it compromises no civil rights or liberties defined by the state. If CA wanted to amend that donuts should be illegal then it could pass because it has as much protection in the constitution as does gay marriage.
headslo 2 years ago
headslo - donuts could be illegal if they are illegal for everyone. If a law was passed that donuts are only illegal for homosexuals but legal for everyone else, that law would be unconstitutional in CA.
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
The answer is a resounding NO! Being gay is not a "special" protected class of people in California. and nor should it be as it is clearly a choice that one makes!
SouthernGent55 2 years ago
" . . .you can't "Willy Nilly overturn the Will of the People."
Name the SCJ who said this. It is not that I don't believe you, but I don't believe you even know the names of your own Supreme Court Justices.
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
I'm not sure of the naem of the female Justice who said it, simply because I don't deem it to be important; what is significant however is that she said it! I'll let you go and look "HER" up!
SouthernGent55 2 years ago
I just figured you would want to know your SCJ's names in case they disappoint you in 80 days. :)
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
I promise, you will hear the results much less than 80 days! therefore, prepare to cry really soooooon!
SouthernGent55 2 years ago
Comment removed
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
If the SC lets Prop 8 pass, then "the people" will be able to vote away the rights of any protected minority including religious rights, so good luck. I will laugh when you are not longer allowed to pray in public or proselytize. Maybe "SHE" will vote in favor of Prop 8 to teach all of you a good lesson of what it will be like to live in a Democracy. We have a republic - representative government - where we hire representatives to create and interpret our laws, not a democracy.
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
Actually you need to go to the Jews about this verse and ask them what they mean. They'll give far more ancient and original answers than your pastors who are full of Medieval tradition will give you. The "strange flesh" can mean a lot of things including having sex with strangers. It's ancient meaning can mean a lot of different things.
Read and contemplate
—Ezekiel 16:49-50
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
SouthernGent55 - You're right it doesn't, because monogamous same-sex relationships were not formally recognized until the late 1800's when the term "homosexual" was coined. So all of your self-interpreted 2000 + year old passages mean nothing.
Besides you didn't answer my question:
WHERE in any of our laws does it state that we are to refer/defer to the Bible when making legal decisions on the rights of individuals?
jfsfrnd 3 years ago
None of our laws does it state we are to refer/defer to the Bible in making legal decisions on the rights of individuals. Our Constitution was created with a strong wall between Church (religion) and the state (government) and this country was NOT set up to be a Christian nation but to be a haven of protection for all faith's (Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Bahai, etc.) that support basic human rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
Jacksonholenativ - I have posted references to the Virginia Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom and also the Autobiography of Thomas Jefferson where he refers to the bill. These "Christian's" don't have any respect for our country, or it's laws. They don't understand that our secular laws also protect their right to religious freedom. Speaking to them is like speaking to a brick wall.
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
I know it. You definitely might as well talk to a brick wall. Your insight is refreshing. Until any of these people can get into a gay person's skin and walk for a while how in the world can they even begin to comprehend or have any credibility in making such judgments? They don't have a leg to stand on.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
Jacksonholenativ - ". . .get into a gay person's skin. . ."
Jesus spoke about compassion for others. These "Christians" are about as anti-compassionate as a person could be.
jfsfrnd 2 years ago
You hit the nail right on the head with that one.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
Iam right because the Bible ONLY recognizes Marriage between one man and one woman, even as our Lord Jesus affirmed in Matthew 19:4-6! Also, the Apostle Paul and Apostle Peter all define marriage as being between one man and one woman!
You will NEVER win this with the "Gay Logic" you and other gays use to justify your perverted and deviant lifestyle! God will surely judge you. You can't explain Jude 1:7 away because the Scripture clearly states that S &G was filled with "Sexual Perversion!
SouthernGent55 2 years ago
Ken Starr was a Man among boys & girls! He has set on a Higher Court than any of the State Justices, and that is why they gave him the upmost respect as well as more time than any other Lawyer! The man was simply AWESOME!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
SouthernGent55 - So have you listened to any of the other oral arguments, or just the oral arguments of Ken Starr?
jfsfrnd 3 years ago
I absolutely did, and they were all very weak! Even the Judges said their arguments were weak and in at least one case, one female Judge told one of the Lawyers
that they pretty much didn't have a leg to stand on! Also, the person in Jerry Brown's office ought to be fired! He was perhaps the most unprepared of all of the Lawyers. What a shame.
Brown didn't show up because he knew he was no match for Ken Starr! He clearly was head and shoulders above the rest including the judges!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
SouthernGent55 - Which of Ken Starr's arguments did you agree with - what did he state?
jfsfrnd 3 years ago
SouthernGent55 Justices do not make statements like the ones you stated (their arguments were "weak", etc.) as that would be very unprofessional. They grilled Ken Starr very strongly just like they did everyone else. The final testimony from the LAMBDA (I believe) lawyer was powerful on equality side. She argued very passionately and clearly. Ken Starr is an incredibly arrogant man. He could not answer the question about the 18,000 plus marriages and how they were to be dealt with fairly.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
The word "weak" was simply my layman's term for those who would seek to understand. Mr. Starr is not arrogant man, and he answered very clearly the 18,000 so-called "marriages" by stating the wording that says "Is recognized", and that statement will be the death nail to those unions!
Again, the gay community always have a problem with people who opposes their lifetyle, and they cannot admit when their representatives are weak in defending them as were these Lawyers representing their cause!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
I find it Very interesting that anyone who disagrees with anything the Gay Lobby says does or believes in gets a Knee Jerk reaction as being a Hate filled Biggot. It is now to the point where you cant even remotely disagree with anything the Gay Lobby Says or your a Big Jerk. If the Gay Lobby says the Rams will win the Superbowl next year or the Giants will win the World Series and you say they probably wont you will still be a big Jerk because you cant disagree with them. its not allowed,
Rigger4100 3 years ago
Rigger:
Well said! The gay community wants to intimadate people into sympathizing with their cause, and thus they will say and do anything to get a hearing. As for me, I don't give a darn about what they think!
Their lifestyle is perverted, deviant, and outright nasty! As long as I have breath to breathe and a ind to think, I will NEVER see gay relationships as "normal", "Natural", or "acceptable!"
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
Do I remember them? Yes, of course! Their names are Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon. They had been a couple for 51 years before they got married. Del Martin passed away last summer at the age of 87. Both woman have been politically active in SF since the 50s. Martin was once the president of the National Organization of Women. I have a great deal of respect for both of them.
hotsfpursuit 3 years ago
I'm happy to hear that. I like it when people are happy. Thats why gay marriage should be legal.
athousandstrats 3 years ago
That is why gay marriage should not be legal and why gay marriage is NOT legal! Say it Loud, We're Straight and We're Proud!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
So people can be unhappy?
athousandstrats 3 years ago
If it means living a deviant and perverted lifestyle, people ought to be "unhappy" as their conscious should prick them!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
How is it "deviant and perverted"? Especially as its not a choice and cant do anything about it?
athousandstrats 3 years ago
Let me ask you a question: As a married man, if I find myself being pursued by a very attractive woman do I have a choice as to whether I will be faithful or not?
In other words, according to the Bible, we were all born with a "Sin Nature" and have the propensity and proclivity to sin.
If a woman is agressive and seductive, am I helpless in that situation? Do I tell my wife "Honey, I just couldn't help it because as a man, I'm wired to be attracted to women?"
Homosexuality is a clear Choice!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
Two things re dreadfully wrong and ignorant about this.
The first is "according to the Bible".
Second, have you ever been a homosexual? If not, then shut the hell up about things you dont understand. It's not a choice.
athousandstrats 3 years ago
I am so blessed that I have NEVER been a Sexual Pervert! Say it Loud, We're Straight and We're Proud!
I notice you failed to answer my thought-provoking question. Why? Because you would have to agree that I have a choice even as homos have a choice!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
Fine, I'll answer your question:
Yes, you have a choice to be faithful as a married straight man attracted to another woman. But that says absolutely nothing about homosexuality being a choice at all. It just shows your own potential weakness as a husband.
athousandstrats 3 years ago
You hav el flunked once again! Even if you believe that one's orientation is "inborn", you still cannot deny that a person has a choice as to whether they will yield to their inclinations.
Again, it is no different if a woman stood before me naked, I STILL have a will and can make a choice as to whether I will sleep with her.
Don't give me that weak "I can't help it" bit, it isn't working! Try repenting, and asking Christ for inner strength to say "No" when those feelings come up.
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
So are you saying all the gays should simply repress their true feelings until it drives them crazy? It is not a choice, and until you've experience what it is like (which you have not) dont preach.
Why does everyone who feels gay marriage shouldn't be allowed feel so threatened by it? How will it affect you? the gay couples of the world aren't trying to fuck anything up for YOU. Why are people just being so cruel to them for no reason and denying them civil rights?
athousandstrats 3 years ago
I am saying gay people are not wild animals driven by instinct, they are human beings created in the image and likeness of God, and therefore, they have the ability to use their volition and choose to yield or resist their urges!
Marriage is between a man and a woman, plain and simple. I want my three grand children to grow seeing a male-female relationship, not some perverted facsimilie of one!
Why don't you guys just REPENT! That will settle it. Try repenting and asking Christ for help!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
Because "repenting" does fucking nothing. It settles nothing. No one is listening, and it is not something that can just be chosen
So basically, if god creates everyone in his own likeness, why are people gay at all??? God must be a little gay himself then.
How are gay relationships perverted, you hateful bastard?? The biggest perverts on are straight men!
How would you like it if suddenly you weren't allowed to get married? Hmm?
athousandstrats 3 years ago
That wouldn't happen because I am a man who is married toa woman...the way God planned it! Repenting does everything! It allows you to confess your sin, turn from them and ask Christ for a new life!
He has promised to transform every sincere seeker. Why don't you take Him at His word? Yes, gay relationships are VERY perverted!
God did not intend for one man to poke another man in the Butt! the anus is not designed for sexual penetration. Everybody knows that in the medical field. Try repenting
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
So do straight couple who have anal sex have to repent?
I'm sorry, Southern Gent, but this is just NOT an issue of religion. Its an issue of equal rights. Face it.
athousandstrats 3 years ago
As a matter of fact, they shouldn't be engaging in anal sex as the anus is not designed for sexual activity. Second, even if you disagreed with that assessment, you still can't justify the deviant and perverted act of two persons of the same gender having sexual relations; the two are not the same!
I can assure you that anybody who looks at the human anatomy, can plainly see that two men have the same thing, so why would they want to engage in something that is perverted? Gay sex is nasty!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
My god, I didn't think ignorant hicks like you still existed. Its unfortunate, really.
Why does gay marriage bother you so much? Do you think they would be such a threat to your life personally that you feel the need to take away their own God-give (yes, GOD given) rights as human beings?
If you take away their rights, then you have no right to complain about them affecting you or if your rights are taken away.
Hateful bastard.
athousandstrats 3 years ago 3
Ignorant? You are the zenith of ignorance! Anybody who thinks it's "normal" for one man to poke another man in the butt is as ignorant as they come!
I can assure you that Gays do not have a "God given right to marry" as He has already defined the institution that He introduced to mankind: one man and one woman for life! (Matthew 19:4-6) Sorry, just the cold facts!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
I did not say it was normal. But you know, neither are things like eyeglasses or synthetic clothing materials.
And don't go quoting your bible shit at me. Thats not how this country is won.
Though I must admit, I'm impressed that someone as ignorant as yourself knows a word like "zenith".
athousandstrats 3 years ago
Again, you have displayed your ignorance time and time again! What do you mean "Thats not how this country is WON?" Did you intend to say "Run?"
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
yup
athousandstrats 3 years ago
SouthernGent55 - "He introduced to mankind: one man and one woman for life! (Matthew 19:4-6)"
That would be a legitimate argument if we lived in a Theocracy. Our laws are secular and don't refer to the Bible for validation.
jfsfrnd 3 years ago
No, you're wrong! the idea of marriage is not man's idea, it is God's! Therefore, God alone has the authority to define marriage and He has: One Man and One Woman for Life!
It is always amusing that people think that they can live as if there is no higher authority to whom they are accountable. Trust me, you and the reast of humanity will stand before the Ruler of the Universe someday and give an account of the life you have lived.
Gay "marriage" is an abberation! God does not honor it!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
SouthernGent55 - if marriage is between one man and one woman for life, what are you going to do about those pesky secular divorce laws?
Where does it say "gay marriage is an aberration" in the Bible?
It is always amusing that people think that they can "play God" and ramrod over everyone they don't agree with. Ditto about "standing before the Ruler of the Universe. . ."'
jfsfrnd 3 years ago
Yes, Marriage is a God-Ordained Institution that is defined as between One Man and One Woman for Life! Both the Genesis account and our Lord Jesus affirms this fact in Matthew 19:4-6.
The ONLY "Marriage" that God honors is the marriage He has defined! Therefore, gay people cannot get married as it is an abberation and a perversion!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
SouthernGent55 - "Therefore, gay people cannot get married as it is an abberation and a perversion!"
Gay people can get married because our secular laws do not defer to the Bible or any other religious book.
At this point it is entirely up to the CSC. They won't be referring to the Bible for their decision on this matter.
jfsfrnd 3 years ago
I'm also not surprised you'd think that was a compliment. Tool.
athousandstrats 3 years ago
Thank you, at least one person is thinking straight.
Rigger4100 3 years ago
Jerry Brown is the Biggest Idiot of all. He had the chance to get Prop 8 Audited for Leagilty By the Cali High Court PRIOR to the vote but he didnt because he thought it would lose after he changed the 14 words to make it a Rights Isuue. Now that it passed he is trying to have his cake and eat it too. HE messed up now it will be upheld.
Rigger4100 3 years ago
Ken Star spreading the HATE of the religious right in this country
padprod 3 years ago
Typical Liberal response, anyone who disagrees with the Lib Agenda is a Hater, a Biggot etc etc etc. But it still loses. AND attacking those that disagree is even more stupid because in a Democracy you NEED those votes. When you call them idoits Haters and Biggots They just run away from you. But dont take MY word for it, BTW hows the whole Prop 8 thing going? Not good? Wonder why>
Rigger4100 3 years ago
Don't you think it's kinda hateful to be so callous about an 87 year old woman's death, as Southern Gent was below. I can't imagine what it's like for her partner of 50 years and her daughter to lose her. What kind of person, if not a hater, makes comments like that? No sweetie pie, that's for sure.
hotsfpursuit 3 years ago
Ken Starr did an outstanding job arguing for Proposition 8. He was masterful.
Based on the articles I have been reading and the commentary of talking heads, on both sides of this issue, it appears that the court will likely uphold Proposition 8.
It will be a Constitutional victory for the good citizens of CA and the moral majority throughout the United States.
ingodwetrust99 3 years ago
Ken Starr was awesome today! He was clearly the "Professional" and everybody else were the Amateurs!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
NO HE WAS NOT,HE WAS A FOOL AND ACTED like an idiot!
medavog 3 years ago
He was clearly a "man among boys!" However, no one could have expected anything less from a Real Professional! This man has already served as a Superior Judge and simply knows his stuff!
I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that Prop 8 will be upheld! Jerry Brown's office was so dumb trying to play both roles that, they actually helped Prop8 supporters!
Starr was charming, gentile, highly skilled and intelligent, and very cool and confident of his position! The others had no authority!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
Though I am ardently in favor of marriage equality, I agree that Ken Starr did a good job. I would in no way call the others amateurs. Stewart and Minter made great arguments about Prop 8 being a revision of the constitution, which clearly protects historically discriminated groups. Don't be so happy about Starr's success in this situation. One day he might be arguing to take some dearly held right of yours away.
hotsfpursuit 3 years ago
You would make that statement due to the fact you were not in the Courtroom; however, I was! Ken Starr was clearly a man above boys! The others were not prepared.
Case in point: The Black lawyer from the NAACP was awful! The assistant in Brown's office was also awful!
Everybody else were put on the defense by the tough questions from the Judges. Starr was the ONLY lawyer who was cool, calm, and collected.
He knew his stuff! He was on it. Brown didn't show up because he was a coward!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
Gay people do not have a "Right" to be married. That is a very weak point of their case. That is what the Judges threw out to them to prepare them for their next defeat!
Marriage has always been and will always be honored as a sacred God-Ordained Instiution in the eyes of Almighty God!
The Family is made up of a Man, his wife, and children. IT takes a man and a woman to bear children. That is how you got here! That is how every human being, past and present will get here. No hard feelings.
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
No hard feelings? It doesn't really work that way. Fuck you.
athousandstrats 3 years ago
I guess you have to tell it to Ken Starr for being awesome! And, for Jerry Brown being a whimp, that he didn't even show up for the hearing! Why didn't he? He knew he was no match for Ken Starr.
Say it Loud, We're Straight and Proud!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
I would expect nothing less coming from a guy who calls himself "SouthernGent"
athousandstrats 3 years ago
The court isn't throwing out gay people's right to be married at all. They are supporting a proposition that was passed by a majority of Californians. Prior to Prop 8 passing, the same court made a ruling that made gay marriage legal. The vote was 4 to 3 on that. So at least four of them are in favor of extending the right to marry to same-sex couples. FYI.
hotsfpursuit 3 years ago
So to defend marriage, they're going to destroy thousands of marriages. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
And for a supposed legal expert, you'd think Mr. Starr would be aware of Article I, Section 9 of the U. S. Constitution, which states that no bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed, or translated from legalese, that no law shall be enacted retroactively.
Filby 3 years ago 4
Ken Starr is doing the correct thing! Marriage is between one man and one woman for life! The people of California, me included, spoked loud and clear as to what we believe marriage is and how it is to be defined!
SouthernGent55 3 years ago
yeah this entire thing about prop 8 wasnt about hate it was about marriages & weather or not gays should or shouldnt be married and to let it B called traditional marriage when really its not! but no on 8 supporters tunrned prop 8 into a hate, when prop 8 passed by, what. 2% - 3% idk thats when the no supporters started all the drama and rumors and many more. Thats why if you look up prop 8 up on this jank most of it would B the negative things about prop 8 and the yes on prop 8 ppl!am i rite!
CHOOSETHERITEWAY 3 years ago
Trash 8, trash prophate.
jerrydoubleu 3 years ago 2
yeah swag on that!
CHOOSETHERITEWAY 3 years ago