Not Another F1 Blog: Episode 1 (Team orders)

[flaviotp]

Petrov ahead of me, this is ridiculous, Put renault´s engineers on the radio, I´ll talk them to let me pass.

Ferrari Engineers: Alonso is faster than Petrov

Renault Engineers: This is not your fake team anymore, Alonso - you have to pass on the track.

Alonso: Mimimi, I can´t do this I don´t have the habilities to pass on the track. Please let me pass. I´ll pay you a dinner...

HAHA...

The real team, with real drivers won the 2010 Championship. The Gods of F-1 made justice on this sunday.

[AlanoSpanol]

Video-Reply Against Possible Sanction - September, 8 - 2010 (WMSC)

Google - YouTube:

F1 Team Orders Hockenheim 2008 Vs 2010 [By Mouse]

[AlanoSpanol]

YouTube:

F1 Team Orders Hockenheim 2008 Vs 2010

[By Mouse]

[amishasdf]

In the Hungarian gp vetel slowed down everyone so that webber could stay in front. Wasn't that team orders and wouldn't that possibly change the race result? If Ferrari is punished so should be red bull. I can hardly think how seb was so lost that he couldn't even stay clos to webber during the sc period. It just shows how people love to crtisize Ferrari and how they are jealous of ferrari.

[KingsIndianCR]

@amishasdf I haven't seen any evidence that the team did tell Vettel to slow down (if there is, then feel free to show me). Even if they did, though, then that's clearly not the sort of 'team orders' that Article 39.1 refers to. It refers to a team telling one of its cars to let another past (and, at most, to a team telling the drivers to hold station). Article 39.1 needs a major rethink (if it should stay at all), but if it applies to things like this, then every team breaks it in every race.

[MegaForceish]

@KingsIndianCR Its difficult you could see this the morale way: That it's wrong to tell massa to let alonso through massa has worked hard for that position he has had to fight for it and deserves his 1st place on the podium OR you could see it in the Mathmatical & business way:Massa was very unlikey to win the championship due to his poor starts alonso was very much a contender and every point counts so the mathmatical and business wise thing to do is let him trhough. then again its a chmpinship

[KingsIndianCR]

@MegaForceish Although I prefer the 'moral' way, I completely understand the 'mathematical/business' way, especially later in the season. The problem that I have is partly the fact that they knowingly broke a rule (however flawed that rule may be), and partly the way they did it (basically, sticking two fingers up at the fans). Then again, if the FIA legislated on "the way they did it", that'd compromise the 'sporting' element, so, like you say, it is difficult.

[MegaForceish]

@KingsIndianCR Yeaah true personally i don't think they should've done it then go and say they wern't team orders !?! if i knew what he men't when i was watching obviously they were i don't like the fact they also got fined instead of removal of the points as in many times in sport teams would actually rather get fined than points because it has a bigger affect. He should not have done it let it to massa to decide if massa individually let him through "i have no problem" the fact he was told....

[KingsIndianCR]

@amishasdf For example, if telling Vettel to slow down falls under the scope of Article 39.1, then so does pitting a team's cars on different laps (which would definitely interfere if one were close enough to leapfrog the other), as would pitting the cars on the same lap (as one car would lose a lot of time through queuing). Under such a liberal interpretation of Article 39.1, a team whose cars were running within a second or so of each other would be banned from making pit stops!

[KingsIndianCR]

@amishasdf "It just shows how people love to crtisize Ferrari and how they are jealous of ferrari." This is nonsense. Had it been McLaren switching Button and Hamilton, or Red Bull switching Webber and Vettel, I would have said the same thing. Besides, why would I be jealous of them? If I were jealous of any team (which I'm not), it would be Red Bull, since they have a faster car than Ferrari and are ahead of Ferrari in both championships.

[turboturtle2002]

@KingsIndianCR but it wasn't. it was ferrari. in turkey the redbull drivers colided while fighting for the lead, in the same gp both macca drivers had a fight as well....

i suppose fia appointed stewards and the motorsport council is also jealous of ferrari?.....

[turboturtle2002]

@amishasdf wrong. if you did any research you'd know that vettel made a mistake as there is a rule about maximum distance to the pace car or other competitors (exactly, so one driver cannot slow the field down for the benefit of his teammate) and was penalised for it. that in turn destroyed any hopes of him winning. rbr tie their future with vettel not webber, and as seb is a hot property they have to keep him happy.

[amishasdf]

There is so much to talk about. The Shumacher Barrichello incident , vetels drive through , vetel entering so late into the pits during the sc period. Make a video and share your views. Also the summer break has arrived.

[KingsIndianCR]

@amishasdf There is indeed, but unfortunately, my headphones/microphone have broken, so I can't record any sound. If I do make a video, then it'll have to be text-only for the time being (which, of course, wouldn't be as good).

[KingsIndianCR]

@amishasdf Well, text with pictures and video clips. Perhaps some sound in the background, but until I can repair or replace my broken headset, I have no decent way of recording my voice :( .

[marcofk]

FERRARI, VERGOGNA!  FUORI DALLA F1!

FERRARI, SHAME ON YOU! BAN THEM FROM F1!

[Humanobrido]

Hamilton alias "next time will be penalized" overtakes Safety car which is Black Flag and out of race (Valencia 2010). Team orders: "Save fuel !!! It's not necessary save fuel yet !!!" (McLaren 2010). Kovalainen 'accidentally' out on a corner and let Hamilton caugth more points for his "Clean a fair" F1 2008 Championship (Hockenheim 2008). Fair play, fair play, british hypocrites !!!

[KingsIndianCR]

@Humanobrido Have I expressed my views on these incidents? NO.

What evidence do you have to back up your allegation that I'm a hypocrite? NONE AT ALL.

Go troll someone else's channel.

[Humanobrido]

@KingsIndianCR You analyze just this fact (which seems the only one that is reprehensible) not "the team orders" and you focus in this fact because Fernando is involved. Why you don't analyze all facts that Hamilton makes fraud only this year in this sense? The result of that analysis is clear: Rules are only for Fernando and Ferrari and I did not agree how the rules were applied with Ferrari for ten years ago. THE RULES ARE FOR ALL SAME WAY. The rest is hypocrisy.

[KingsIndianCR]

@Humanobrido Because I only had the idea of starting a video blog very recently. I will be discussing all incidents, regardless of the drivers involved. It has nothing to do with the fact that Fernando is involved. I also fail to see how your conclusion that I think "Rules are only for Fernando and Ferrari" holds, because I said in the video that I don't think Fernando himself did anything wrong, and that he didn't deserve any penalty.

[WakeUpDummies]

@Humanobrido Amen to that! Hamilton is a DOUCHEbag

[bntypp]

" this is ridiculous" so say a racing driver, who is faster then his team mate, but cant get past. alonso's a whinging prick...

[Humanobrido]

@bntypp "this is ridiculous" Fernando tells the team that fight that way (it's a team-mate) when Fernando wants to overtakes maybe two cars go out and 42 points or one of two. "ridiculous" are you "fair gamers" !!! A cascarla !

[SuperHardTrance]

They all do it SO STOP blowing it out of proportion... the fia should scrap the rule as it has NO place in f1... its a team game.... and the driver leading the other by aload of points half way through the season has earned the right to have the whole team behinds him... if it was for 7th you wont be bitching about it... it happens... it will always happen... and it should happen. NO BIG DEAL

(I just wish it was the other way round as i love Massa and hate Alonso)

[KingsIndianCR]

@SuperHardTrance I agree that team orders do have a place in F1 if it's sufficiently late in the season, and one of the drivers is sufficiently far ahead. Indeed, if it wasn't against the rules, I may have been defending Ferrari; I don't like team orders, but I understand their motivation for using them. Besides, the ban was just a knee-jerk reaction to Austria and Indy '02, but I'm sure if things like that became an accepted part of F1, millions of viewers (including myself) would turn off...

[marcofk]

@SuperHardTrance

all those who are praising Ferrari's decision to force Massa to let Alonso through should consider whether they'd agree with the same conduct if Yamaha ordered either Rossi or Lorenzo to let the other through based on their standing in the tables. This scam was the last straw: ban teams altogether and let pilots run by themselves, or ban F1 that's become boring as sin since Senna died, or ban Ferrari, so that, at least, they'll stop piling the horse's own manure on a legend

[SuperHardTrance]

@marcofk your not living in the real world... with out teams there is no f1.. without teams there is no drivers... they drive for the team... nothing is bigger than the team. As for rossi and lorenzo... again the team is most important

[marcofk]

@SuperHardTrance

the pilots ARE the teams. I've watched Formula 1 since 1982 and nobody, until Williams with Damon Hill lost to Schumacher in Benetton, ever gave a damn about the manufacturers championship. It only started to matter then because Williams liked to think they had the better car. I've seen Villeneuve race against Pironi in Ferrari, I've seen Lauda race against Prost in McLaren, then Prost against Senna and Alonso himself against Hamilton. That is sport, this is not.

[solisos]

@marcofk So you saw also Hamilton against Kov last year???

[marcofk]

@SuperHardTrance

and as per Rossi and Lorenzo, it didn't quite go that way last year, did it? Which is why I ended up watching much more Moto GP than F1. Mind you, Ferrari itself seems to have a blind spot when it comes to putting the team first, just ask Eddie Irvine...

[SuperHardTrance]

@marcofk what?

[sherid4n]

If you have 2 footballers. One, is one on one with the keeper and the other is in a better postion to score to win the game and the championship you would expect the player to pass the ball for the good of the team.

In this case one team member passed not a ball but the victory to his better placed (in the championship) team mate.

It tactics not cheating, ferrari have done nothing wrong, the rules should allow team orders, after all they are one team aren't they?

[KingsIndianCR]

@sherid4n That's what I said - team orders can be justified from that perspective, especially later on in the championship. I just don't think they're good for the sport from the fans' point of view: we were robbed of seeing a good race between Alonso and Massa, for example. Then again, I don't think Ferrari would have wanted a repeat of what happened in Turkey to the Red Bulls.

[SuperHardTrance]

@KingsIndianCR the thing is it happens alot... and you still watch it... just because this 1 was for the win and because it was on screen its blown way over the top

[KingsIndianCR]

@SuperHardTrance There are differences between this, the other uses of team orders that happen all the time (reasonable) and Austria/Indy '02 (unreasonable). There were plenty of ways in which this particular use of team orders could be justified if it wasn't against the rules (Alonso needed the help in the Championship, he was quicker than Massa, Vettel could have caught them had Massa held them up, etc.). None of those applied to Austria/Indy '02, which just made a total mockery of the sport.

[SuperHardTrance]

@KingsIndianCR its eitha ok or its not... ya cant say it was wrong coz it was done so bad... and its ok to brake the rules as long as its done secretly....

[KingsIndianCR]

@SuperHardTrance I didn't say anything of the sort. Read over my latest post again.

[SuperHardTrance]

@KingsIndianCR your saying 1 is ok and the other aint.... this is ok and austria aint... its the teams decision and if they say to do it in the first race then its what should be done... drivers know this when they sign other wise they would refuse

[KingsIndianCR]

@SuperHardTrance Yes, I am saying one was OK and the other wasn't, but whether or not it was in secret has nothing to do with it. I explained the real reasons in the comment before last.

[SuperHardTrance]

@KingsIndianCR none of them really should made made a big deal though

[amishasdf]

Button has a good point though. If your race engineer said that your team mate was faster you would try to improve your pace rather than slow down and let your teammate pass.

[amishasdf]

Schumacher said he would have done the same thing that Ferrari did if he was in that situation. So he is actually supporting Ferrari. Ecclestone also said that there is no point banning team orders, let teams do what they want to which I agree.

Anyways changing the rule is out of question

[KingsIndianCR]

@amishasdf I was just kidding about Schumi.

I'm not a fan of team orders myself, but it's clear that any ban on them is unworkable. The teams will always find ways around it (like the coded messages); if they want to operate with a clear #1 and #2, then I think they should be allowed to. I'd prefer it if teams didn't operate like that, but I think there's enough justification for that approach for it to be allowed.

[amishasdf]

Looks like everyone is taking this opportunity to punish Ferrari. They no Ferrari are back. Button, Christian horner. Let's see who's next.

[KingsIndianCR]

@amishasdf I'm gonna guess Schumacher, even though he isn't 'back' :P .

[beastinblack]

Senna, Rossi, Hamilton, Mansell, Moss, were ENTERTAINING racers -> that requires a talent all of its own. Schumi, Alonso, Lorenzo, Vettel can just go fast. The gift to entertain everyone on the racetrack is rare.

[SuperHardTrance]

@beastinblack SO... thats what happens when ya so good that no1 else can touch you... its less entertaining... Schumi, Rossi, Loeb etc etc... not entertaining coz they were so far out in front

[amishasdf]

And I'd like to know when I'll make your next video

[KingsIndianCR]

@amishasdf My next F1 video will be whenever I have another controversy to talk about - which probably won't be long :P .

[amishasdf]

Ferrari can say they never gave team orders to massa. They didn't clearly say ' let Alonso pass' so fia has no proof. And I doubt any further action against ferrari as again they have no concrete proof.

Btw I'm an f1 fan and haven't missed a live start of the race since 2006 (I think from monza )

[KingsIndianCR]

@amishasdf This seems to be exactly what Ferrari are doing. I doubt many people will take what they say seriously, though, especially since they've chosen not to appeal their penalty.

[amishasdf]

U can also check out the making video guide by tehkseven. He also has really cool videos

[KingsIndianCR]

@amishasdf Thanks for the tip - I will do :) .

[kirkie1210]

good blog but too quite, can hear your voice

[KingsIndianCR]

@kirkie1210 Thanks - I'll try to make it louder in my next vid.

[jack221183]

@KingsIndianCR You kinda fail in your justification of the team order from a scoreboard point of view. The Drivers' individual points in the Drivers' Championship has got nothing to do with the team's chances of winning the Championship.



[KingsIndianCR]

@jack221183 I was talking about the WDC here, not the WCC.

[de1hagar]

Massa handled stupid, you drive for a team and the team interest goes before your personal interest.

That radio massage should not have been needed.

[Candyguitar]

I'd recommend amplifying your voice a bit, because I had to turn the volume up a lot to hear it clearly, and the car sounds are quite loud by comparison. Otherwise, good video!

[amishasdf]

Great video. You can improve by using video clips rather than pics

[KingsIndianCR]

@amishasdf Thanks for the tip. I'll have a go at that in episode 2.

[morzer]

you ' re faster than me ,show me how  that's a shame