Saul Griffith on kites as the future of renewable energy

[RicDoFOGO]

This is great!! If they manage to integrate this kind of wind energy with the kite sails maybe boats wouldn't have to use fossil fuels at all!

[dawoderpfeffer]

@3877michael when have you sensed that the first car was made?

How is oil now recoverable?

[3877michael]

@dawoderpfeffer More like the first oil wells. 1910-20? Till now. We will use more oil than has ever been pumped in 20 years. They recover oil from sand and shale. They pump hot water into old wells and so on. 7% yr X 10 years = 100% increase in consumption at present rates. In volume of oil, this is all the oil ever pumped out of the ground X 2. Say from day1 till 2011 we used 10B. barrels of oil. By 2021 it will be 21b barrels. By 2031 it will be 43B barrels. Oil price will reflect this.

[cyq88]

so what if it rain?

[dawoderpfeffer]

@cyq88 What if it rains? Nothing really. Do you expect planes to fall off the sky when it rains?

[Antithropocentric]

Why do these gung-ho wind engineers only talk about the upsides of their physically intrusive devices? They come off like androids who want to Star Trek the entire planet and eliminate the remaining vestiges of natural scenery.

Wind power is anything but "clean" if one considers natural, unfettered, bird-safe environments to be worth saving from blight and noise. This kite concept seems to grab even more airspace than 400-foot tower mills. I can already see birds getting snagged on the lines.

[ienviro]

@Antithropocentric I hear you,

Yet birds are used to avoiding one another and other birds all the time, so just color the cord bright orange and attach little cardboard birdies(images of Hawks) to strings ....I agree not applicable in all regions of the world....yet I can see this hugely practicle in the Hamiliya regions Norther Pakistan-India-Bhutan-Nepal and much they have the high and continious wind and seems much cheaper and ecoFriendly methods than Solar Paneling :) :)

[RamanNoodles7]

This reminds me of the Bill Gates lectures and Larry Ellison presentations sans Power Point. Power to the Kites. Renewable will bury the oil developers and bring more peace than any summits and peace treaties could ever achieve. Imagine Ahmadinejad waking up one day in ten years and finding out his oil production is down by half. He asks why and his soon to be decapitated Revolutionary Guard tells him engineers have been quietly working to develop renewable energy alternatives. Go Boiler Makers!

[Rickdeckard2020]

Very interesting

What happens when the wind is too strong? Are there mechanisms to prevent the kite from being thorn or damaged?

[mangoswiss]

I wonder if it's possibe to stack them? Three 747 wings on a winch. That would be a lot of torque on that winch.

Regarding how it works... I assume that the winch acts as a generator. The kite is then tacked out of the wind allowing it to be winched back in with minimal effort and then tacked back in again to pull the winch back out.

Whether it's feasible or not - It's still a fascinating concept.

[mummyfunk]

kites rule

[ErichoTTA]

1:02 He took the words right out of my mouth.

[LUCIDity2009]

Nice premise... But, It would take up an awful lot of sky & land space to generate any real amount of energy. There's would have to be so much distance between each kite to stop them from flying into each other.

[sotw2006]

I like the pretty marbles at the the end of this video :D

[Zetimenvec]

I don't understand the mechanism that he's trying to put in place for power. does it have to do with the differential between the wings creates tension on two different points and it pulls in a circle? I really don't get it....

also, wouldn't you need some kickass cable to hold up a freaken 747's wing suspended in flight by the wind?

[adolthitler]

I think the kite/wing supports a turbine up there.

[Zetimenvec]

I don't think that's it, because he was talking about the reason why it'd be more effective is because the plane itself will cover more physical air than a grounded turbine. That inference suggests the mechanism is not on the plane itself, but what it's attached to on the ground

[adolthitler]

They were also talking of higher wind speeds at elevation above 300ft. The kite is the method of getting a wind turbine up there.

[sceptic33]

i think the generator is the winch motor... angled to the wind a certain way, the wing creates lots of lift which pulls out more cable, turning the generator.. angled another way the wing produces very little lift, so the cable can be wound back in using very little power...

[Zetimenvec]

well, I don't understand how a winch motor works, so I can't really make any comments pertaining to what you've said.

[sceptic33]

it works like any motor, u put electricity in and it spins, or u spin it somehow and it produces electricity. pretty simple stuff...

[Zetimenvec]

How is it different from any other motor? I mean, what does the "winch" part mean?

[sceptic33]

the winch is the spool with the kite string wound around it... like a fishing reel... u turn the handle one way (using the motor) to wind in the string and bring the kite down, or let it spin the other way to let more string out so the kite goes higher...

[Zetimenvec]

so wait, someone has to be there to wind up and down the winch?

[sceptic33]

did u even watch the video? they're working on automated systems... the computer that controls the kite also controls the winch...

[Zetimenvec]

well, It seems like the way you described it, it would take energy to fly it up, winch it out, then it would take that energy back to winch it down. I think I'm missing something, because it sounds like you're describing a perpetual motion machine

[sceptic33]

dude, it's WIND POWER... the wind lifts the kite up, the winch brings it down. it doesn't need much energy to bring it down if u change the angle of the kite to reduce the lift generated by the WIND..

[sexyloser]

Yes. That is precisely how it works. The robot that flies the wing flies the wing back into position after angling the wing off-wind.

It's actually a very simple concept and they could have these wings stationed far from cities.

[sceptic33]

i was wondering if a similar concept couldn't be used for hydro power... using a big 'bucket' on the string to capture tide or river currents, and opening the bucket to reduce the drag as its heaved back in...

[mangoswiss]

Thats a fascinating idea. I was wondering that also. Especially if they were to be anchored to a seabed and far enough away from the shore. Presumably water currents would provide even more force with a hydrofoil arrangement.

[awesomeSkins]

@sceptic33 Your right, the atmosphere does behave rather like liquid, and perhaps if this works in the air, it would work in the water too.

[princeofexcess]

abraham gran belle is not the inventor of the telephone ... Antonio Meucci was

if you take an invention and improve upon it and make it popular it doent make u the real inventor

[kosmoscitizen999]

Please read James Howard Kunstler's: THE LONG EMERGENCY

This most informative book tackles many issues & misconceptions surrounding alternative energy sources. The most common alternatives, when put into wide-scale production produce a net negative energy return. Nuclear is the one positive alternative.

Technological advancements may help to shift some alternatives to positive energy gains. Let us all keep thinking & sharing knowledge with this common goal.

No assessment for kite option.

[plevyman]

I haven't read the book, but isn't it hydrogen that he talked about as having a net negative energy return? Wind turbines can't have a net negative return, once they are up you just let them run. I'd have thought that the real problem was that "renewable" sources don't provide enough energy to make up for the shortfall once the oil runs out.

[BaileysBeads]

Bullshit. When talking about total negative energy returns then Nuclear would be the one giving the lowest netto energy.

There is an assessment for kite option. Kunstler just assessed it wrong. 'Kite option' IS 'wind energy' he just didn't anticipate such huge developments made on it.

[luerwulf]

What? Is family planning too easy?

Is there too little power in ocean waves?

[dancerxing5]

*_* That is way cool...

I want to know more though!

[impalapez]

Bio-Char...energy production, organic waste as fuel, soil ammendments, carbon sequestration....

No Brainer...

[eqstreme]

I would really like to know more detail about how he exactly proposes to do this. I'm not sure I understand why he was talking about kites, but then about wings? Was he meaning kites the size of those wings? More detail needed.

[in4theride75]

Problem, crowding of airspace and interference with airplanes. A single electrical line would be enough to ground a plane or rip it's wing off. It would be an enormous hindrance to recreational aviation and could also pose a problem to commercial flight. This system would have to meet these 3 requirements to be useful, must be placed in moderation, at low altitudes, and in extremely rural areas. A better solution is geothermal, solar, and nuclear.

[BaileysBeads]

Don't worry, if we continue like this the coming energy crisis will be so dire there won't be any planes to fly.

[justonia19]

No fly zones are placed all over the world, so what is a few more going to hurt?? Pilots would mark it on their GPS system and stay away, its that simple, no hindrance. The largest wind turbine only produces about 1.5-3 MW of power and this idea would produce more than 4 times that. The kite would be on a fixed cable at a fixed length, so no matter the wind direction, you would know EXACTLY what the flight radius would be, whats wrong with creating a more efficient source of renewable energy??

[in4theride75]

Nothing is wrong with this but you must realize that a great majority of no fly zones are in the urban area where these kites cannot fly. I've already thought about this because if you where to take the same concept but using a blimp with a computer for navigation you could place a wind turbine in the jet stream and create 10X what he is suggesting. There are just more efficient alternative solutions which I've already mentioned.

[OrganicInterfaces]

After reading all the comet on this page I realize that probably the biggest problem here is that we all need to agree to change our current comfortable way of life and allow space for new solution to grow and fully develop.

[OrganicInterfaces]

yes we have to be conscious and it will take time but birds and fish are smart enough to learn about new hazard and change there patten and I think we ca afford more "no fly zone ". if we continue to shoot down any new ideas before is actually fully develop we will stock in a global paralysis and considering both the energy crises and the clime crises is a luxury we simply can not afford

[OrganicInterfaces]

BTW Personally I'm a bit uncomfortable with nuclear energy ... thought new technology have proved to be more efficient especially in the production of nuclear waste .. nuclear waste is still a problem ... not a easy one to get read of. I realize people might disagree with me

[in4theride75]

You shouldn't be uncomfortable with it though. There has been an enormous amount of improvement making nuclear plants more safe then any modern fossil fuel plant. Also, nuclear waste is really not a problem. Most of the radioactive material is already removed by the time it is classified as waste. It only needs a place to cool down, which is easy to find places for that. i.e. the deserts in Nevada where no one lives.

[Aaron2071]

@OrganicInterfaces Well, with modern techniques it is now incredibly safe to produce, we can create barely any waste as a side effect, but that waste still exists nonetheless. However, it seems there are many studies being made to see about accelerating the disintegration of nuclear waste and eliminating it. :D

[takerdust]

Alexander Graham Bell invented the phone??

[holym4nn]

sky would be so cluttered with kites. Eyesore much?

[sysFail81]

so, ERoEI?

[tenisplayer]

nice complicated stuff sometimes work

[ParkourWarrior9]

What the hell was the end???? that freaked me out trippy style, like 2001: A Space Odyssey on shrooms freaked out :(

[ebird97]

its a political cartoon only a smart person as me can fgure it out

[ParkourWarrior9]

woow...

[Destro7000]

I think that guy needs to make his lecture more descriptive.

Just what is he asking, in detail?

[PariahOfTheKOHLM]

My personal key concern is that this sounds like a great companion to solar power, except I have no idea what the PRODUCTION of all these generator kites. I mean environmentally.

[Truthiness231]

Something I'm concerned with that the majority of scientists are going to dismiss until it bites them in the ass:

Just as when we started to harness coal, and oil, and building dams for hydro-power, we ignore the possible negative consequences (I think most of us know how those three panned out). The potential problem lies in what all the wind does in nature, and how taking much of it away will affect our environment... pollen, seeds, spores, birds, insects, ect. all use wind...

[Truthiness231]

Oh and even bats die from the rapid pressure changes around windmills (there is a good New Scientist video on YT about it). I'm just pointing out that there will be negative side effects to this new power as with everything else we do on this planet. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be detrimental... (lol but then again I guess that's the modern scientists' credo)

[Truthiness231]

Actually, I think he makes it clear that our focus should be on solar power. To be completely technical, not only is there PLENTY more power in it, but it's the actual source of all the wind power.

[diggyjones]

But, if we fly these things high enough (remember the highest wind speeds are generated higher than most animals fly), that wouldn't be a problem. That part of space is occupied by small aircraft, for the most part anyway. We can work around that, I'm sure.

[dhruvasagar]

But the problem I see is not the height, not the kite itself, but the string that has to be attached to the kite! That will be and can be a hassle, most of the times even difficult to notice unless you see the kite itself...but nevertheless it is a nice idea. It is ideas such as these that will make the difference for our future

[Truthiness231]

The higher you go the less power you generate because the air gets thinner the further up you go. In any case, forget the bat thing...

The thing is, every time we build a dam for example, the more we change the current (which prevents salmon, for a continued example, from reproducing).

Now then, say we start using up some of the major (or even minor) wind currents (as opposed to the water currents)... what uses those currents that will be effected? Spores, pollen, seeds, bugs, and surely more.

[Truthiness231]

Many birds in particular use those currents to stay afloat for long periods as they munch on bugs (which are also traveling with them). Less currents = less natural habitats for these beings.

Now then, I'm not saying we give this a pass altogether, but we do have to be cautious. I think we're all aware that our actions that negatively effect the environment have a tendency to come back and bite us in the ass a few decades down the line...

[Truthiness231]

Also keep in mind that the potential power mentioned in this video was assuming a complete collection of all wind on the planet, which would not only be possible by completely traumatic to all life on the planet.

How much power can we both safely and logically harness with this technology, and what would be the cost vs. benefit over what period of time? These are the most fundamental questions to be answered before moving in a new direction with energy, and none of them have been answered here.

[cmeast]

His talk was interesting and I can see the potential but I wish he'd provided some answers to the obvious questions i.e. How does bad weather affect it, how exactly is the energy generated.

We can assume the answers are there (and perhaps guess them for ourselves) but it still feels like he should have talked more.

So... kite farms I guess... or would the kites fly free to be collected in and the energy harvested like bees collecting pollen...

[BaganJermal]

The end part is it a Nokia commercial? Very disturbing.

[porridgethedestroyer]

Is the air speed on the ground enough to lift to the wing (kite) without needing to run into the wind first?

[watzupdawg]

Nice one Saul. I wonder what Saul would make if he sat under an apple tree and an apple feel on his head (the edible kind, not the laptop).

[ChowZeb]

what? how does this even work? he didnt even go over that part?

[petfoodonly]

exactly, how does one turn tension on a wire into electricity?

[JoshuaStodart]

I think there would be turbines on the wing...

[Atoyota]

yes he never went into that.... Would have been a better talk had he done so. That and what to be done when the winds quit.

A walk through of the system with answers to all consequences from too little to too much wind (or weather), as well as How they generate power.

[celshader]

People are asking how this works.

I got the imression he was talking about simply putting a wind turbine on a kite rather than fixed to the ground like they are now.

And you would get more energy that way.

[watzupdawg]

There is a lot more windpower in the upper atmosphere. The airstream is also much smoother. The idea of using high speed air streams makes more sense.

[CaptainKhrenov]

this idea isn't too practical though

you can't put many of these close to each other, it may hurt somebody on the way down, there are airplanes, etc etc

[watzupdawg]

If we dont have any fuel to run power stations I dont think that planes will be a problem. For every person that gets hit be one of these kites about 100,000 will die from energy shortage. Which is worse ?

[CaptainKhrenov]

what energy shortage?? who's gonna die from it? you're crazy...

[watzupdawg]

Too much breeding and not enough reading. For every 1 degree celcius the atmosphere increases (as per ppm CO2) there is a direct decrease in the world population. Presently India and China are lagging in per-capita energy consumption and countries such as AU, UK, USA are consuming 200%-2000% of the global average. This means that if China and India do as the west does, there is not enough power in the world. Have you not heard the part where 100M people die at 420ppm CO2? What do you think ?

[clowns1564]

nice brainwashing at the end...

[Beachapeeater]

I wish he said exactly how it makes energy :( and p.s. TED what is with the creepy ending!

[ratholin]

well that was fun. Seems a pretty simple method wonder how much power it'll take to power the robots to keep the kites in line.

[agpshadow]

My thoughts exactly.

[peteq1972]

it`s amazing that we`ve been on this planet so long and we`re still getting our power by digging it out of the ground. i can see a time when we just harness watts around us ;)

see what i did there ;)

[acekingie]

no, watt did you do?

[hayeder]

anyone know how this shit works??

[CognosSquare]

So a kite the size of the spruce goose could power a lovemaking-session by me for about 24 seconds. Color me unimpressed.

[jonsuther]

That's a lot of kites in the air.

[fassoulia]

what the hell was that at the end!!??

[Zabakiller]

do winds blow constantly? I mean high in the sky.  couse if not that could be a problem :D

[hayeder]

yeah they do, it's called the jet stream

[Zabakiller]

"Jet streams are typically continuous over long distances, but discontinuities are common."

Quoted from wikipedia.. does that mean that those jet streams appear and disappear from time to time?

sorry for newbie questions.. im not the meteorologist =)

[RantKid]

lame ted talk :(

[Icix1]

I mean think about it...a giant kite 2000 feet in the air isn't going to hit anything...it's probably going to fly around in circles endlessly, if guided correctly. Clean, convenient and nearly unlimited power. Even in areas considered nowadays impossible for wind power, kites could easily work.

[Icix1]

fucking sweet

brilliant idea

[BigO8872]

Haha thats sweet, I wish he would have described how it could generate power though, because I didn't quite pick up on that.

[BartenderMix]

well, what happens when a storm comes over the kite/?

[trylonperisphere]

Ever hear of Benjamin Franklin? Mucho electric power comes into play.

[BartenderMix]

we didn't learn how to harness lightling yet, did we?

[GetMeThere1]

Would have been nice if he had said even ONE SENTENCE about how it fundamentally works....

[Flyborg]

1) Kites

2) ????

3) Profit

Duh.

[GetMeThere1]

So, I'm guessin' you're just a moron. There are some online resources that I looked at since making the original comment. Turns out there are NUMEROUS approaches. For example, there are methods with the generator up with the kite, and methods with the generator on the ground. There are methods that depend heavily on controlling the kite for flight, and there are (simpler) methods that simply pull down and re-release the kite.

There are a wide variety of technical approaches--he mentions none.

[Flyborg]

I wasn't saying it wasn't true - it was a joke about the fact he didn't mention how it actually works. I'm not sure there's any disagreement here.

[GetMeThere1]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, then.

[HazelEhren]

Keep in mind he only had 6 minutes.

[GetMeThere1]

Yes. It must be difficult to talk for 6 minutes, describing what you're working on, without even mentioning the basic process of your method.

More directly, anyone with ANY technical interests at all (this is "T"ed, afterall) will want to know how you get energy by just flying a kite?

Four sentences and a diagram would take only 15-20 seconds.

[biggerflexible]

I'm sorry when I see kites I start shooting.

[aluall]

lol thats genius

[1trip711]

★

[zombiesmasher]

Short and Sweet ! Great Talk, it never occured to me that something like this could be accomplished, give this man a pair of wings..!

[timeoutformike]

Epic!! xD

[mikezephyr]

kites motherfuckers!

[fuunguus]

:):):)