You guys, the trinity is not in there. G-D always said that there is none beside him. He said it for over 3000 years. Now, in the last 2000, people wanna believe a different version. Why is it that Christians feel the need to stretch the Brit Hadasha to fit their argument? Tanakh stands without having to twist and bend it. Look at "Old" testament vs "new" testament, see which one remains consistent. It`ll all come together soon. All over the world, people are returning to G-D through Torah.
Duh. Everyone knows the trinity was established 3 centuries after christ. Whenever the OT uses the plural form of god, it refers to a race of gods. Who doesn't know this?
Propaganda stuff. Craig simply states "one wouldn't come to believe that god is a trinity (in the OT)" and I fully agree because the trinity revelation becomes clear only in NT.
The OT simply confirms this with Godhead, David, Us statements, Messiah predictions etc.
It leaves the Old Testament scholars with a bigger problem than the new testament scholars of the trinity. Meaning they have to reject the trinity which seems logical in OT settings.
@dannywizz Also, did you notice how the owner of this video quickly cut Lane off after he said what he wanted him to say. I bet that Lane said something after that to support the doctrine of the trinity.,
@ApologeticoPR I agree. Craig says nothing wrong in this video and as he always does he would probably clarify his point even more. I currently have finished reading OT and there is more trinity, Jesus and holy spirit in there than people think which makes it impossible to deny the trinity.
@smawshot: It doesn't say Abraham saw their faces. From distance he saw their figures. And when he went close, he bowed low to the ground. Now if Abraham did see his face, then there are two implications-i)"GOD LIED TO MOSES" ii) THE BIBLE IS CONTRADICTING ITSELF. Take your pick.
@smawshot : Abraham did seem to invite three persons into his house. But two of them were angels for sure. Because in the next chapter, it locates the angels in Lot's house in Sodom. So, two of them were angels. The third one is referred to as LORD.
@Sakib241 Ok let's go with that 2 were angels for sure, 1 was still God. In what context was Moses unable to look upon his face and Abraham could? The bible's use of the word LORD in all capital letters is explained clearly to be God.
The early church was highjacked by pagan converts. Many of these converts had believed in triune gods. Another example of secular Christians corrupting faith. There was never nor will there ever be three parts to God. If Moses wasn't informed of this and neither was the earliest Christians, then why would the later pagan converts be given this new theology? MONEY, maybe? Or just because maybe at this time they clearly out numbered real Christians?
@onemarktwoyou Um... I think by definition people who believe in triune gods can't be secular. You know, given that secular means not pertaining to religion.
If you put so much stock into Dr. Craig's opinion, friend, I recommend you listen to all the rest of his videos - especially the ones where he directly addresses the Trinity. As-Salamu Alaykum. Isa al-Maseeh Yuhibbukum.
From the Numbers 23:19, it is clear that God cannot be Man. So, by deductive logic The statement that " Jesus was 100% Man and 100% God at the same time" is not valid.
***GOD is all-powerful. Jesus said, " I of my own can do nothing" John 5:30. So, Jesus's nature isn't totally complying with the nature of God. ******Continued
Numbers 23:19 -“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” Q. Jesus is referred to as both man and son of man. People argue that he was sinless. Even if he was sinless, he was still a Man. So, how can he be God on the basis of this verse. ******Continued
According to Trinity, Jesus=God=Holy Spirit. Let's take a look at some bible verses.
*Second Commandment: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image.......of that is in the earth beneath...." Q: Jesus was on earth. So why worship him?
*Exodus 33: 20 The Lord said to Moses, “You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” Q. People so Jesus even after transfiguration. So, if he was divine, how did they survive? *****Continued
@Sakib241 Didn't Abraham invite a trinity that was God into house in Genesis 18? Could someone elaborate upon this? By reading the text it is without question that these weren't angels with such things like :And He said: 'I will certainly return unto thee when the season cometh round; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son.' And Sarah heard in the tent door, which was behind him.-- " and "
Isaiah 48: 16 "Come near to Me (ELOHIM), listen to this: From the first I (ELOHIM) have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I (ELOHIM) was there. And now the Lord GOD (ELOHIM) has sent Me (ELOHIM), and His (ELOHIM) Spirit (ELOHIM)."
Open your eyes. Yehoshua HaMashiach, is the LORD (ADONAI) GOD (ELOHIM) of Israel!
Such a low standard of what proof is. William Lane Craig said something so it's PROOF I'm right. This is silly. Not to mention you cut him off in the middle of his answer. Quote Mining and arguments from authority are not proof.
There are basically 3 incorporeal beings in the Old Testament, the Father, the Spirit, and the 'angel of the Lord'. Throughout the Bible, we frequently come across GOD and the Spirit. But where is the "Son?" Trinitarians are not modalists or Oneness Pentacostals, the "Son" is absent from the NT. The "Son" cannot be the 'angel of the Lord' because the Bible nowhere says he's equal to God. Emanation from 'the Father' implies inferiority of the one being SENT. Both "son" and spirit were SENT
you are a moran - why omit the word "IF" in your video upload - typical muslim - cut and omit and paste ! Trinity is a latin word and the bible was written in Greek and Hebrew . That is why the word "Trinity" does not appear in it . EDUCATED yourself first and don't show your ignorence to the whole world.
@MegaAngrycat The bible was Written in Hebrew n Greek and the Word trinity is a Latin word r u saying a word like trinity or a word that describe the same meaning doesn't exist in the Hebrew or Greek Languages,if no i wonder why? Do u understand the Word is not in the Bible three gods(trinity is pagan) n blasphemous Bible clearly says God is One unique(from his creation) God is Not a Man! The understanding of trinity is from paganism Ancient pagans used this term! Educated ur self!
@moeazysgc - If you open your mind and read the scriptures - not "simply as from Hebrew bible " but there are hints of three persons in one God. NOT THREE GODS as our ignorent moslems accuse us of . The universe is in THREE DIMENTIONS ! The nature of God is complex - we do not understand the concept of an eternal God with no begining and no end so how can we understand a Tri -UNE God?
if trinity has base in ot then why doesnt any jew say "god is 3"? maybe god lied to jews in the time of moses?:))
the truth is that logic and faith doesnt have to agree with each other in christian belief and thats a big problem...its a concept created by the church whch is called "have faith and dont question"...
how can u even believe without questioning? that means that i can believe anything bush says wihout questioning..:))
IS LIKE H2O . . .. LIQUID, SOLID ICE, VAPOR, , ALL DIFRENT ALL H2O . . . SO THE THING IS IF WE PUT ALL THIS ON A SCALE . . ALL THING WILL PONI THAT JESUS IS THE TRUTH. . . . SO SUM1 IS WRONG , , , ILL RATHER BELIVE THE BIBLE DEN ANY OTHER BOGUS FAITH, .... NOT FOR TRADITION, BUT THE TRUE FACTS POINT AT THE BIBLE AS THE TRUTH .. . . PERIOD
@xiaahmad unless it's at the triple point, then it's all three at once. Just needs to be at the perfect temperature and pressure. LOL I'm not giving any validity of the other guy's claim. I think the trinity is nonsense, and so is his analogy, but for other reasons.
What do you mean by "same water?" To talk about molecules being in phases you have to compare molecules to the ones around it. It would be impossible to say what state a single water molecule was in even at absolute zero in a vacuum. This is the reason why his analogy is wrong.
@ivandelafetv In addition to xiaahmad's comment, I would like to add that whether the water is in liquid , vapour or ice form, it is still constituted of H20: the same quality al the time in all forms. In the Trinity, the God (father) has immortal qualities, the god (son) is mortal. It still does not make sense. There's the difference of chalk and cheese. Sorry, H20 doesn't do it. come up with a better example. Some other chemical compound maybe?
@EverythingIslam ahahha you are right , they are cought up in this and can't let it go simply cos they have a history of believing this way ! so if a midget is used to being called tall man everyday for a long time , than he thinks he is tall even though he is a midget ,same goes for the christians! they are used to hear the same thing everyday and its become real to them and try to defend it every way possible
@ivandelafetv no H2O is H2O. Just because the physical world manifests in various ways, G-d in the spiritual realm is ONE. One G-d, One form. Christiantiy is idolatry.
The Human mind is one, but divines inwardly by three distinct persons in order to function, and the human mind is made in the Image of God. The Author of the MInd's Dream is the first person, Then , while the dream rolls on, the Mind becomes detached and observes while hovering over the dream. Then, the same one mind, then projects a self image and one sees oneself as the third person appearing in the dream, among other characters , and they communicate, and act, while the mind watches
God who is One appeared by Three, as the Divine Number of Creation. Length, Width, Depth, 3, Past, Present Future time, 3 Atom is Electron, Neutron, Proton, 3, Family is Father, Mother, Child, 3, The planet Earth Rotates, wobbles and Revolves, 3, Solids, Liquids, Gases, 3 Color Television achieve all colors by three basic colors of Red, Blue, Green, 3. Jewish Temple Law required Three witnesses, Word, Priest, Shekinah Pillar of Cloud appearing= proof that Moses and Aaron were chosen
another threesome is Water. Water is H2O That is two atoms of Hydrogen bonded to one atom of Oxygen. That is a bond of Three, Take away any one part and it is not water anymore. God is One ,and by One is eternally Invisible and never can be seen here by anyone made of flesh and blood. But God appeared to the Patriarchs by means of God's Law of Creation. Father, Son ,Holy Ghost, is inside of God's Mind, as Three Persons testifying for the Invisible God who is One, yet appearing
Abraham had three visitors at Mamre, Genesis 18, and He bowed to three visitors as if they were one. And Abraham asked to wash the feet of the Lord, and instead of one man answering him, the three men answered together, "do as you wish." So the idea that three men are the same as God who is One, for reasons of requiring three witnesses to God, Deut. 19:15, is the proof that Abraham knew, the Trinity Concept was the proof of God Invisible appearing on Earth by Divine Numbers. 3=1
Although the Torah is considered the Person of God being present, no miracles ever happen just because that one person of God is present. When the Torah as the first person of God is in the hands of the Messiah, and He pronounces the Word, that makes Him God while he does so. The Messiah is the Second Person of God. Then if it is true, that the Torah is pronounced by Messiah, then the Third person of God appears, the Shekinah Glory , Holy Spirit, appears and Miracles then happen all the time
The definition of the "One" does not mean one object, in fact God is never one object ,but all the things taken together collectively , into Himself as One. One means also , that which is undivided. Also, 'One" means any group of identical valued things in a group, that has no distinctions by qualitative ideas between each member in the group. "E Pluribus Unum" Out of Many, One. God is not that there is one god, no, "Hear O Israel, the Lord God is One" means God has all numbers in Him
Trinity is definitely the Old Testament God who appears. God is accepted as the person of the Word, Torah, then the Messiah High Priestly King takes the Word in the Tent of the Meeting and become One, man and the word, and he pronounces the Word, and the the Third person of God appears out of nowhere, as the Shekinah Pillar of Cloud, which mystical presence drove men out of the Holy Place. So three persons, the Torah is the First Person, Messiah is Second Person, Holy Spirit is Third.
You can assert a basis for almost any type of doctrine from any text through playing semantic games. Killing the denizens of Jericho has no basis in the Ten Commandments, yet other parts of the Hebrew Bible support it.
listen to me o jacob,israel who i have called,I am he,I am the first and I am the last,my own hand laid the foundations of the earth,and my right hand spread out the heavens;when i summon them,they all stand up together.....and now the Sovereign Lord has sent me,with His Spirit. isaiah 49:12-16 Trinity!!! clearly visible in scripture
Gen 1:1 starts the teaching of the plurality of persons in the Godhead. Gen.1:1 In the beginning, GOD. (ELOHIM)
Elohim is a plural noun and means more than one. It does not mean more than one God but indicates more than one beings, persons, entities in the one God.
The rest of Scripture forms my belief about Elohim in Gen 1:1 whether it means gods or God. Over and over again Scripture proclaims that there is only one true God. I believe that. So that is how I interpret that verse.
Either you want an argument or you are not understanding that a singular noun can also indicate more than one.
Example:
Deer, herd, water, etc.
BTW> I do not base my Theology on what Wm Lane Craig believes or don't believe. I base it on Scripture.
@xiaahmad willaim lane craig is not God to be always right.obviously the jews and pharisees did not believe in a trinity.if they didnt even believe in Jesus being the Christ,then what makes you think they would believe in a trinity.they didnt even believe he was divine at all. we worship one God.(monotheism) his "name" (not names) is the father,the son,the holy spirit.matt 28:19
@digger629 Re: "Elohim is a plural noun and means more than one. "
That is incorrect.
When meaning either "one" -or- meaning "more than one" ... It's like the word "sheep"; only being a quantitative plural when the speaker specifies it as such.
What you misunderstood about the term "elohim" always being "plural" is that it's always a "quaLitative plural";which has nothing to do with how many subjects are being addressed.An angel is an elohim.Does that mean that 1 angel consists of several?
You interpret the meanings of Biblical words in their context. The context is Gen. 1:26> US & OUR. That is plurality, hense Elohim is translated as a plural noun, meaning more than one.
I understand it can be used as a singular noun also, but context ALWAYS determins meaning.
there is no reason for a Trinitarian to mention "1" three times unless they are referring to each of the persons in the Trinity.
However,
Can you even put "1x1x1" into English words, like I did with 1+1+1?
Remember that "x" means the number of "times" that something can be seen happening, or how many "times" an identical example of something can be found.
@digger629 hey, if you really can understand how "1+1+1=3" really is one correct way to represent Trinitarian dogma, then I'm sure not complaining. But I had to object when you chose to pretend that I somehow validated the idea that "1x1x1" does too.The good news is that you don't need me to anyways, and long as you can put 1x1x1 into English words that expression your dogma.Do that, and at least you can put a point on your side of the scoreboard, that no one can contest.
@xiaahmad If the Shema had intended to express absolute oneness, it would have used the Hebrew word yachid instead of echad. However, the word yachid is never used in reference to God (Elohim)
@yomamasofat87 When he asked him that it was rhetorical to get him to think about what and why he is asking. Remember Jesus knows the intentions of the heart. He knew the man wasn't going to give up his riches because he did not believe.
Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.
@yomamasofat87 The prophets that he is talking about is the government of Judah who supported a corp of prophets who promoted the religous views of the king and his advisers.
@yomamasofat87 Satan was TRYING to tempt him but was unsuccessful since God CAN NOT BE TEMPTED. It's not that no one can try to tempt God. It's that temptation can not work on God.
how was everyone in the O.T. saved if they didn't know about jesus? explain that. king david only knew of one g-d. and he followed his commandments. we are not saved by simply believing in g-d but by following his commandments...christians have it all wrong and further more they don't even keep the sabbath.
@yomamasofat87 They lived under the law but since no one was capable of keeping the law they also had to sacrifice unblemished animals for atonement. Until the messiah came to be the ultimate sacrifice and take care of it once and for all.
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
so it is not a jewish perspective and in fact i think even the muslims have it more right than the christians do. because at least they worship allah which is acceptible and not mohamad a prophet.
trust me your G-d jesus is very displeased with you worshiping him....this belief that u christians have is strictly catholic. and nuthing else.
MrGriegos your are absolutley wrong it is not a jewish perspective....so when you see a bad english translation and look at it in the hebrew text not jewish perspective you come to see that the english translation for alot of things in the bible are infact wrong. like when it says moses grew horns you want to believe that it says light when in the hebrew the word is kohren or when u see the word hell u wana think its a firey lake in the depths of the earth.
the holy spirit or the ruah ha kodesh is the spirit of the most high not a being as chrisitians tend to believe....the messiah says himself thru out his teachings that he is not the most high the creator of the universe....the first bible if you want to say there is one is a collection of books NOT one book in whole.
the Tanakh is complete! the others are just other ppls writings.
If he would read EPH 3:9 he would see "it was hid from ages, and NOW is known".
You can see the Trinity in the New Testament, and than you can see it all in the old Testament (in light of the new) that is what I am seeing anyway...God Bless
Now, with all the verses I cited, the disagreeing sides might try to claim they are referring to different things. So where should a Christian turn for guidance on how to properly understand those texts? Rabbi Tuvya is guided by the two Talmuds, and other Rabbinic traditions. Christians are guided by the Apostolic Tradition recorded in the New Testament, and some (e.g. me) also by the Apostolic Tradition preserved by the Catholic Church.
XiaAhmad, I see no reason to accept the premise that if a doctrine is true, "Jews would have believed it". As for the prophets, how do you know what they did or did not believe? The prophet whom Genesis was revealed to DID believe that God spoke as a plurality but acted as one, and that the Holy Spirit was present at creation. The prophets whom Job and the Psalms were revealed to DID believe the Holy Spirit took part in creation, et cetera. Daniel DID believe the Son of Man was to be worshiped.
Salaam XiaAhmad. How do you determine what the prophets did or did not believe? I determine it based on what is written in the Bible. So the prophet to whom Genesis was revealed believed what is stated in 18:1-3. The prophet to whom the Psalms were revealed believed 33:6 and 104:30. The prophet Daniel believed what is stated in Daniel 7:14. Zechariah believed what is stated in Zech 12:10, et cetera.
But the full picture came into view through Christ Almighty, our Creator.
XIAAHMAD, you claim the Old Testament does not differentiate between gods. Well, neither does the Trinity. THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.
What the Old Testament does teach is that God can come down in human form, that multiple beings took part in creation, that one who is like a son of man will be worshipped by all nations, et cetera, yet despite all that, there is only one God. The doctrine of the Trinity more fully brought that out.
Salaam XiaAhmad. In the Masoretic Text, there are allusions to the one God's multipersonal ontology. Gen 1:26-27 has the one God speak as plural yet act as one. Gen 1:2 has the Holy Spirit present at creation, Job 33:4, Psa 33:6, Psa 104:30 have the Holy Spirit taking part in creation. Gen 18:1-3, Dan 7:14, Jer 23:6, Isa 9:6 have God taking human form or a man being worshipped or divine. Apostolic teaching brings together the pieces.
Rabbi Tuvya specifically asked for a text which gives us the Nicene Creed. That sort of developed theology is not present in the Old Testament. But what I'm saying is the Old Testament *alludes* to it. And yes, those verses were preached. But people didn't figure out how it all goes together until after Apostolic teaching began to unfold.
You keep contrasting the Trinity with "absolute Monotheism." The Trinity holds that there is, absolutely, only one God, and thus is, absolutely monotheism.
XiaAhmad, again, Dr. Craig's statement was made in the context of Rabbi Tuvya asking for a passage which expresses the Nicene Creed. I agree that fully developed theology of that sort does not have explicit mention in the Old Testament. What I am saying, however, is that there are allusions to God's true nature in several places. But in order for people to understand the full picture, they need the guidance of Apostolic teaching (cf. Acts 8:31).
Salaam XiaAhmad. I would note that the Trinity also affirms that there is only one God, so that is not what is at issue here. The Old Testament does not give a clear and explicit description of that one God which is on par with the fully developed Creedal statements, but it does make allusions to God's multipersonal ontology. However, to fully understand and put the pieces together, we need the guidance of Apostolic teaching (hence Acts 8:31).
Christian doctrine is not based on the Old Testament alone. And I do not believe this should be a controversial point in Muslim-Christian debate, since Islamic doctrine is not based on the Old Testmane alone (or at all!). Are Muslims really suggesting that the true conception of God *only* be based on the Old Testament? Of course not, so why try to hold Christians to that standard?
There are allusions to God's multipersonal ontology in the "Old Testament," but a person can easily miss them.
Haha, well I don't believe Craig has a very Biblical anthropology, soteriology, or apologetic methodology, but in this context no, I don't disagree with his beliefs on the Trinity. What I disagree with is your pathetic, dishonest, desperate attempt to take Craig's statement out of context to suit your own purposes.
Again, expect a response from me within the next week.
Haha. No my friend, you are the one doing the twisting. QUOTE me where Craig said that the Trinity is not at all in the OT. He did not say that; he said that one wouldn't become a Trinitarian if they JUST had the OT. Those are two ENTIRELY different things.
Again, please check out my video response. Unless you're scared to enter into intellectual dialouge, which wouldn't surprise me based on my experience with Muslim apologists.
Xiaahmad, why are you scared to respond to my video respone??
And again, the fact that one would not become a Trinitarian if they had the Old Testament ALONE does not mean that the Trinity is not at all present in the Old Testament. You have to recognize what we call "progressive revelation." God did not choose to FULLY reveal the doctrine of the Trinity until the New Testament. How does that mean that there can't be hints of the Trinity in the Old Testament?
Xiaahmad, please just try to listen to what I'm saying and actually think about it: why does the fact that the doctrine of the Trinity is not fully revealed in the OT mean that it isn't in the OT at all? Again, we need to recognize that this is progressive revelation. Once the doctrine in more fully revealed in the NT, we can look back and now see the Trinity in the OT. That's all we're saying. The fact that the Trinity isn't explicitly taught in the OT doesn't mean there are no traces of it.
When I went to school 1+1+1=3. Read Carefully:GOD is one in three not three in one. And, no that is not the same. He is not 3 divided by 1. Again 1+1+1=3. Have a nice day!
That is what you have been lead, to believe. Christians have exalted, Jesus as God, he never made that claim. He said that he was the Son of God. And I know, that he is! I'm sure you would feel better if the trinity just did not exist. But I can tell you he does, beyond the shadow of a doubt!
Exactly eyezopennow. People just take people's remarks out of context and then think they have proved something. Amazing what lengths people will go to in order to justify their beliefs.
First, Craig has said elsewhere that you can find hints of the trinity in the O.T. (yes, I'm looking for the quote and I'll be sure to give it to you). This alone should tell you that you're taking him out of context.
Secondly, you make leaps in interpretation. You go from (1) Craig saying you wouldn't come to believe it to (2) Craig saying it's not at all there. That's an unjustified leap. You're asserting more than is required. At best you should withhold that remark and take only (1).
No xiaahmad, he was just being honest. You're just misinterpreting what he said. It's the same way Muslims approach science in the Quran. You believe modern science is in verses of the Quran even though it's an undeniable fact that Muslims did not come to believe in modern science because of the verses in the Quran. Just because someone doesn't come to believe in a doctrine because of a text doesn't mean it's not there. Be honest and admit that fact, otherwise deny science or prophecies in Quran
This stupid video is no better than saying that if someone had only watched Star Wars IV that they wouldn't expect Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker's Father.... therefore the Star Wars trilogy is incoherent (which, of course, some of it is, especially those darn prequels, but you get my point: this is deliberate ignorance and crude simplification).
Try taking the WHOLE THING in context.
I'm so sick and tired of desperate straw man arguments.
i didnt ask u whether craig is a trinitarian or not :) he admitted there is notrinity in the O.T and thats busts all myths of christians trying to prove tri from o. and the debate is out of context....??? wana see the full debate?? :) xia just took out the most important part of it... wana see the full 1?
Thing is he admitted that Trinity is based upon NT and if we just look at OT then trinity is not there.
thats the point which means for centuries prophets and there follower dont even knew who GOD was and how God was. they were following the wrong concept :)
and this is to show all those evangelicals who are to argue that Trinity is in OT
We do not deny that he believes in the Trinity, but the guy admitted that this belief is baseless. That's all there is to it. There is no Trinity in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament). All the Prophets from Adam to Jesus believed in One Singular God. Christianity is false.
how is it baseless? Jesus is in the NT. He affirmes His Divine Nature by calling God "Abba". You are just theologically persumming. The Trinity is a COMPLETE revelation of the nature of God. So YES there is ONE God. I am monothesist.
The Trinity is ONE GOD.
the question has NATURE of God. it is unitarian vs Trinitarian...
Dr William has admitted that if you approach this question ( of Trinity ) to the Old Testament, one wouldn't come to believe that God is A TRIUNE GOD !! in other words Jews are RIGHT that God is ONE not three in one ..it also proves that the New Testament is CORRUPT AND CONTRADICTS the hebrew Bible !!
Here's the score:
Rabbi Tovia = 1, Dr William = 0
This is probably the best debate for Rabbi Tovia ..I really enjoyed it :)
Bang!!! William lane craig.. u admitted to the truth. Thank u for confirming that All prophets before Jesus pbuh worshipped just 1 God and not triune. And we know that Jesus pbuh worshipped One God too. Thank u for confirming the oneness of God i.e Tawheed. Allahu Akbar. Huwa Ahad us Samad Ul Lazee lam yalid wa lam yoolad walam yakullahu kufuwan Ahad. :)
Infinity + Infinity + Infinity = Infinity
UsWithGod 1 week ago
You're all missing the point; God isn't even real
floyd316 1 month ago 2
You guys, the trinity is not in there. G-D always said that there is none beside him. He said it for over 3000 years. Now, in the last 2000, people wanna believe a different version. Why is it that Christians feel the need to stretch the Brit Hadasha to fit their argument? Tanakh stands without having to twist and bend it. Look at "Old" testament vs "new" testament, see which one remains consistent. It`ll all come together soon. All over the world, people are returning to G-D through Torah.
charlestodd3 1 month ago
Duh. Everyone knows the trinity was established 3 centuries after christ. Whenever the OT uses the plural form of god, it refers to a race of gods. Who doesn't know this?
fdasherv 2 months ago
Nice manipulation there, boy does the devil have a grip on you!
elmatachica 6 months ago
@elmatachica
go check the original video if u want to :)
xiaahmad 6 months ago
@xiaahmad
I did, that's why I know it's a manipulation.
elmatachica 6 months ago
Propaganda stuff. Craig simply states "one wouldn't come to believe that god is a trinity (in the OT)" and I fully agree because the trinity revelation becomes clear only in NT.
The OT simply confirms this with Godhead, David, Us statements, Messiah predictions etc.
It leaves the Old Testament scholars with a bigger problem than the new testament scholars of the trinity. Meaning they have to reject the trinity which seems logical in OT settings.
dannywizz 6 months ago
@dannywizz Also, did you notice how the owner of this video quickly cut Lane off after he said what he wanted him to say. I bet that Lane said something after that to support the doctrine of the trinity.,
ApologeticoPR 2 months ago
@ApologeticoPR I agree. Craig says nothing wrong in this video and as he always does he would probably clarify his point even more. I currently have finished reading OT and there is more trinity, Jesus and holy spirit in there than people think which makes it impossible to deny the trinity.
dannywizz 2 months ago
@smawshot: It doesn't say Abraham saw their faces. From distance he saw their figures. And when he went close, he bowed low to the ground. Now if Abraham did see his face, then there are two implications-i)"GOD LIED TO MOSES" ii) THE BIBLE IS CONTRADICTING ITSELF. Take your pick.
Sakib241 8 months ago
@smawshot : Abraham did seem to invite three persons into his house. But two of them were angels for sure. Because in the next chapter, it locates the angels in Lot's house in Sodom. So, two of them were angels. The third one is referred to as LORD.
Sakib241 8 months ago
Comment removed
smawshot 8 months ago
@Sakib241 Ok let's go with that 2 were angels for sure, 1 was still God. In what context was Moses unable to look upon his face and Abraham could? The bible's use of the word LORD in all capital letters is explained clearly to be God.
smawshot 8 months ago
The early church was highjacked by pagan converts. Many of these converts had believed in triune gods. Another example of secular Christians corrupting faith. There was never nor will there ever be three parts to God. If Moses wasn't informed of this and neither was the earliest Christians, then why would the later pagan converts be given this new theology? MONEY, maybe? Or just because maybe at this time they clearly out numbered real Christians?
onemarktwoyou 8 months ago 3
@onemarktwoyou Um... I think by definition people who believe in triune gods can't be secular. You know, given that secular means not pertaining to religion.
bicokun 6 months ago
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@bicokun
I see your point. Thank you for noting that.
onemarktwoyou 6 months ago
If you put so much stock into Dr. Craig's opinion, friend, I recommend you listen to all the rest of his videos - especially the ones where he directly addresses the Trinity. As-Salamu Alaykum. Isa al-Maseeh Yuhibbukum.
Grambo4 8 months ago
From the Numbers 23:19, it is clear that God cannot be Man. So, by deductive logic The statement that " Jesus was 100% Man and 100% God at the same time" is not valid.
***GOD is all-powerful. Jesus said, " I of my own can do nothing" John 5:30. So, Jesus's nature isn't totally complying with the nature of God. ******Continued
Sakib241 10 months ago
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Numbers 23:19 -“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” Q. Jesus is referred to as both man and son of man. People argue that he was sinless. Even if he was sinless, he was still a Man. So, how can he be God on the basis of this verse. ******Continued
Sakib241 10 months ago
According to Trinity, Jesus=God=Holy Spirit. Let's take a look at some bible verses.
*Second Commandment: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image.......of that is in the earth beneath...." Q: Jesus was on earth. So why worship him?
*Exodus 33: 20 The Lord said to Moses, “You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” Q. People so Jesus even after transfiguration. So, if he was divine, how did they survive? *****Continued
Sakib241 10 months ago
@Sakib241 Didn't Abraham invite a trinity that was God into house in Genesis 18? Could someone elaborate upon this? By reading the text it is without question that these weren't angels with such things like :And He said: 'I will certainly return unto thee when the season cometh round; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son.' And Sarah heard in the tent door, which was behind him.-- " and "
smawshot 8 months ago
Isaiah 48: 16 "Come near to Me (ELOHIM), listen to this: From the first I (ELOHIM) have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I (ELOHIM) was there. And now the Lord GOD (ELOHIM) has sent Me (ELOHIM), and His (ELOHIM) Spirit (ELOHIM)."
Open your eyes. Yehoshua HaMashiach, is the LORD (ADONAI) GOD (ELOHIM) of Israel!
ChristusVlCTOR 10 months ago
This video is right, but the thing is, the NT doesn't point to a trinity either unless you start with a trinity and then try to read it in!
Peace!
KTK401 11 months ago 2
You tried 1+1+1.Wrong way to go about it.Try 1 times 1 times 1=1
revelationofjesus 11 months ago
Such a low standard of what proof is. William Lane Craig said something so it's PROOF I'm right. This is silly. Not to mention you cut him off in the middle of his answer. Quote Mining and arguments from authority are not proof.
Drunkenprophet23 11 months ago
There are basically 3 incorporeal beings in the Old Testament, the Father, the Spirit, and the 'angel of the Lord'. Throughout the Bible, we frequently come across GOD and the Spirit. But where is the "Son?" Trinitarians are not modalists or Oneness Pentacostals, the "Son" is absent from the NT. The "Son" cannot be the 'angel of the Lord' because the Bible nowhere says he's equal to God. Emanation from 'the Father' implies inferiority of the one being SENT. Both "son" and spirit were SENT
muslim9x9x 11 months ago
@muslim9x9x I meant "absent from the OT"
muslim9x9x 11 months ago
you are a moran - why omit the word "IF" in your video upload - typical muslim - cut and omit and paste ! Trinity is a latin word and the bible was written in Greek and Hebrew . That is why the word "Trinity" does not appear in it . EDUCATED yourself first and don't show your ignorence to the whole world.
MegaAngrycat 1 year ago
@MegaAngrycat The bible was Written in Hebrew n Greek and the Word trinity is a Latin word r u saying a word like trinity or a word that describe the same meaning doesn't exist in the Hebrew or Greek Languages,if no i wonder why? Do u understand the Word is not in the Bible three gods(trinity is pagan) n blasphemous Bible clearly says God is One unique(from his creation) God is Not a Man! The understanding of trinity is from paganism Ancient pagans used this term! Educated ur self!
moeazysgc 1 year ago
@moeazysgc - If you open your mind and read the scriptures - not "simply as from Hebrew bible " but there are hints of three persons in one God. NOT THREE GODS as our ignorent moslems accuse us of . The universe is in THREE DIMENTIONS ! The nature of God is complex - we do not understand the concept of an eternal God with no begining and no end so how can we understand a Tri -UNE God?
MegaAngrycat 1 year ago
@MegaAngrycat
keep trying lol
hudfadz 1 year ago
look at jesaja 48 verse 16
rmhvandersteen 1 year ago
trinity is PAGANISM !!!
LIQUIDFLUIDR12X 1 year ago
1 god+1 god+1 god=3 gods=1 god
1son+1son+1son=3sons=1 son
1hs+1hs+1hs=3hs=1hs
3gods+3sons+3hs=9godsonhs=3godsonhs=1 what???
khalilrabee 1 year ago
if trinity has base in ot then why doesnt any jew say "god is 3"? maybe god lied to jews in the time of moses?:))
the truth is that logic and faith doesnt have to agree with each other in christian belief and thats a big problem...its a concept created by the church whch is called "have faith and dont question"...
how can u even believe without questioning? that means that i can believe anything bush says wihout questioning..:))
khalilrabee 1 year ago
WLC saying the trinity isn't in the OT proves it's fact? Is WLC god or something?
Even if you agree that the trinity isn't in the OT, this video doesn't prove anything.
WilbertK13 1 year ago
1+1+1=1 is not in the bible!
BUT u fail to relise who can be 1 in 3!
I ask u.... WHO HAS THE POWER TO BE 3 in 1 or 1 in 3? *GOD*
I ask u..... WHAT ARE THE MAIN PARTS OF A HUMAN BODY? *BRAINS, HEART, and SOUL*
I ask u........ What is 3 in 1 or 1 in 3 when it comes to science?
*H2O= water, water vapor, and ice share the same chemical compound*
Now, my final question is.......... SHOW ME A MATH OR SCIENCE PROBLEM
THAT PROVES GOD IS REAL AND HE EXCITES!
IF U THINK BOUT IT, NO SCIENCE OR MATH CAN
milkydud 1 year ago
1+1+1+1+1..............+ infinity 1 = 1
all nations + reglions+ races = 1
now itz the time turning face to each tother and give LOVE, because we must become World United in all aspects above. So 1 is perfect Number.
beensolongg 1 year ago
@beensolongg IF 1+1+1+1+1.........+1 (nations +reglisions+races) NOT EQUAL = 1. then WE are in TROUBLES.
there will be full of conflicts and wars.
beensolongg 1 year ago
"... simply on the basis of the Hebrew Bible, or what we call the Old Testament, why would he come to believe that God is a trinity?"
The Jews, Apostles, and Bereans studied ONLY from the HEBREW BIBLE (or Greek LXX) because the New Testament had not been written.
Did God keep Abraham, Moses, and the Apostles and Bereans "in the dark" regarding Who He was?
Did God only reveal himself to 300 bishops (whoever they really were) in 325 AD?
OF COURSE NOT. GOD IS ONE. Jesus is not God.
loveroflife365 1 year ago 7
@loveroflife365
so according to u what Jesus (PUBH) is?
xiaahmad 1 year ago
@xiaahmad
Jesus is the Son of God. Matt. 16:16, I John 4:15, and many others.
There is no "trinity" god except in the creeds of men.
loveroflife365 1 year ago
@loveroflife365 Just as before Abraham I AM ~Jesus YHWH= I AM
RandomlyAnimated 3 weeks ago
IS LIKE H2O . . .. LIQUID, SOLID ICE, VAPOR, , ALL DIFRENT ALL H2O . . . SO THE THING IS IF WE PUT ALL THIS ON A SCALE . . ALL THING WILL PONI THAT JESUS IS THE TRUTH. . . . SO SUM1 IS WRONG , , , ILL RATHER BELIVE THE BIBLE DEN ANY OTHER BOGUS FAITH, .... NOT FOR TRADITION, BUT THE TRUE FACTS POINT AT THE BIBLE AS THE TRUTH .. . . PERIOD
ivandelafetv 1 year ago
@ivandelafetv
a part of water is in one state at one time
like the part that is solid is not liquid at same time
but in trinity all three are full God at same time so ur analogy is not good sorry
xiaahmad 1 year ago 2
@xiaahmad nice. . . but your wrng sorry, and is cool if you want to belive dat , , is all you
ivandelafetv 1 year ago
@xiaahmad unless it's at the triple point, then it's all three at once. Just needs to be at the perfect temperature and pressure. LOL I'm not giving any validity of the other guy's claim. I think the trinity is nonsense, and so is his analogy, but for other reasons.
heatmourning33 1 year ago
@heatmourning33
Even at triple point same water is not all three.
but in trinity same GOD is all three at same time
xiaahmad 1 year ago
@xiaahmad
What do you mean by "same water?" To talk about molecules being in phases you have to compare molecules to the ones around it. It would be impossible to say what state a single water molecule was in even at absolute zero in a vacuum. This is the reason why his analogy is wrong.
heatmourning33 1 year ago
@xiaahmad ... well i can tell you this. .ill rather belive wut i belive, . . im sorry but evidence points to Jesus truth,
ivandelafetv 1 year ago
@ivandelafetv In addition to xiaahmad's comment, I would like to add that whether the water is in liquid , vapour or ice form, it is still constituted of H20: the same quality al the time in all forms. In the Trinity, the God (father) has immortal qualities, the god (son) is mortal. It still does not make sense. There's the difference of chalk and cheese. Sorry, H20 doesn't do it. come up with a better example. Some other chemical compound maybe?
EverythingIslam 1 year ago
@EverythingIslam ahahha you are right , they are cought up in this and can't let it go simply cos they have a history of believing this way ! so if a midget is used to being called tall man everyday for a long time , than he thinks he is tall even though he is a midget ,same goes for the christians! they are used to hear the same thing everyday and its become real to them and try to defend it every way possible
baskuk 1 year ago
@ivandelafetv ur all wrong but chronologically through the OT its obvious monotheism is correct.
buktomsin 1 year ago
@ivandelafetv no H2O is H2O. Just because the physical world manifests in various ways, G-d in the spiritual realm is ONE. One G-d, One form. Christiantiy is idolatry.
ConstructionHoney 1 year ago
The Human mind is one, but divines inwardly by three distinct persons in order to function, and the human mind is made in the Image of God. The Author of the MInd's Dream is the first person, Then , while the dream rolls on, the Mind becomes detached and observes while hovering over the dream. Then, the same one mind, then projects a self image and one sees oneself as the third person appearing in the dream, among other characters , and they communicate, and act, while the mind watches
CarmineFragione 1 year ago
God who is One appeared by Three, as the Divine Number of Creation. Length, Width, Depth, 3, Past, Present Future time, 3 Atom is Electron, Neutron, Proton, 3, Family is Father, Mother, Child, 3, The planet Earth Rotates, wobbles and Revolves, 3, Solids, Liquids, Gases, 3 Color Television achieve all colors by three basic colors of Red, Blue, Green, 3. Jewish Temple Law required Three witnesses, Word, Priest, Shekinah Pillar of Cloud appearing= proof that Moses and Aaron were chosen
CarmineFragione 1 year ago
another threesome is Water. Water is H2O That is two atoms of Hydrogen bonded to one atom of Oxygen. That is a bond of Three, Take away any one part and it is not water anymore. God is One ,and by One is eternally Invisible and never can be seen here by anyone made of flesh and blood. But God appeared to the Patriarchs by means of God's Law of Creation. Father, Son ,Holy Ghost, is inside of God's Mind, as Three Persons testifying for the Invisible God who is One, yet appearing
CarmineFragione 1 year ago
Abraham had three visitors at Mamre, Genesis 18, and He bowed to three visitors as if they were one. And Abraham asked to wash the feet of the Lord, and instead of one man answering him, the three men answered together, "do as you wish." So the idea that three men are the same as God who is One, for reasons of requiring three witnesses to God, Deut. 19:15, is the proof that Abraham knew, the Trinity Concept was the proof of God Invisible appearing on Earth by Divine Numbers. 3=1
CarmineFragione 1 year ago
Although the Torah is considered the Person of God being present, no miracles ever happen just because that one person of God is present. When the Torah as the first person of God is in the hands of the Messiah, and He pronounces the Word, that makes Him God while he does so. The Messiah is the Second Person of God. Then if it is true, that the Torah is pronounced by Messiah, then the Third person of God appears, the Shekinah Glory , Holy Spirit, appears and Miracles then happen all the time
CarmineFragione 1 year ago
The definition of the "One" does not mean one object, in fact God is never one object ,but all the things taken together collectively , into Himself as One. One means also , that which is undivided. Also, 'One" means any group of identical valued things in a group, that has no distinctions by qualitative ideas between each member in the group. "E Pluribus Unum" Out of Many, One. God is not that there is one god, no, "Hear O Israel, the Lord God is One" means God has all numbers in Him
CarmineFragione 1 year ago
Trinity is definitely the Old Testament God who appears. God is accepted as the person of the Word, Torah, then the Messiah High Priestly King takes the Word in the Tent of the Meeting and become One, man and the word, and he pronounces the Word, and the the Third person of God appears out of nowhere, as the Shekinah Pillar of Cloud, which mystical presence drove men out of the Holy Place. So three persons, the Torah is the First Person, Messiah is Second Person, Holy Spirit is Third.
CarmineFragione 1 year ago
/BUMP
regarding "1x1x1",
there is no reason for a Trinitarian to mention "1" three times unless they are referring to each of the persons in the Trinity.
However,
Can you even put "1x1x1" into English words, like I did with 1+1+1?
fleabeard 1 year ago
You can assert a basis for almost any type of doctrine from any text through playing semantic games. Killing the denizens of Jericho has no basis in the Ten Commandments, yet other parts of the Hebrew Bible support it.
TheFlanker35 1 year ago
listen to me o jacob,israel who i have called,I am he,I am the first and I am the last,my own hand laid the foundations of the earth,and my right hand spread out the heavens;when i summon them,they all stand up together.....and now the Sovereign Lord has sent me,with His Spirit. isaiah 49:12-16 Trinity!!! clearly visible in scripture
turi73 1 year ago
Gen 1:1 starts the teaching of the plurality of persons in the Godhead. Gen.1:1 In the beginning, GOD. (ELOHIM)
Elohim is a plural noun and means more than one. It does not mean more than one God but indicates more than one beings, persons, entities in the one God.
Gen 1:26> Let US make man in OUR image.
Once again>plural nouns.
The symbol to represent the Trinity on this video is misleading. It should not be:
1+1+1=1 (this is purposely mis-leading & incorrect)
But 1X1X1=1
digger629 1 year ago
@digger629
so ur saying all jews back then and even Willam lane didnt understood that
if u say its Elohim and take it literal then its just GODs not Persons
so u ll go away from monotheism
xiaahmad 1 year ago
@xiaahmad
The rest of Scripture forms my belief about Elohim in Gen 1:1 whether it means gods or God. Over and over again Scripture proclaims that there is only one true God. I believe that. So that is how I interpret that verse.
Either you want an argument or you are not understanding that a singular noun can also indicate more than one.
Example:
Deer, herd, water, etc.
BTW> I do not base my Theology on what Wm Lane Craig believes or don't believe. I base it on Scripture.
digger629 1 year ago
@xiaahmad willaim lane craig is not God to be always right.obviously the jews and pharisees did not believe in a trinity.if they didnt even believe in Jesus being the Christ,then what makes you think they would believe in a trinity.they didnt even believe he was divine at all. we worship one God.(monotheism) his "name" (not names) is the father,the son,the holy spirit.matt 28:19
turi73 1 year ago
@digger629 Re: "Elohim is a plural noun and means more than one. "
That is incorrect.
When meaning either "one" -or- meaning "more than one" ... It's like the word "sheep"; only being a quantitative plural when the speaker specifies it as such.
What you misunderstood about the term "elohim" always being "plural" is that it's always a "quaLitative plural";which has nothing to do with how many subjects are being addressed.An angel is an elohim.Does that mean that 1 angel consists of several?
fleabeard 1 year ago
@fleabeard
Elohim is a plural noun is not incorrect.
You interpret the meanings of Biblical words in their context. The context is Gen. 1:26> US & OUR. That is plurality, hense Elohim is translated as a plural noun, meaning more than one.
I understand it can be used as a singular noun also, but context ALWAYS determins meaning.
digger629 1 year ago
@digger629 You are being silly.
When one subject invites another to help with something,there is automatically an "us"; but that doesn't make the first subject an "us" unto himself.
fleabeard 1 year ago
@digger629 re: "1+1+1=1 (this is purposely mis-leading & incorrect)
But 1X1X1=1".
Where each of those "1"s are an independently almighty person ...
which Trinitarians worships as an individual, (because the son is not the Father)...
if we say (in words) that Jesus is one of those persons whom are worshiped,
and then we say the Father is another one of those,
and then we say the Ghost is one of those ...
then we just offered "1+1+1, because "and" is the mathematical equivalent to "+1".
fleabeard 1 year ago
regarding "1x1x1",
there is no reason for a Trinitarian to mention "1" three times unless they are referring to each of the persons in the Trinity.
However,
Can you even put "1x1x1" into English words, like I did with 1+1+1?
Remember that "x" means the number of "times" that something can be seen happening, or how many "times" an identical example of something can be found.
fleabeard 1 year ago
@fleabeard
Using your own argument of 1X1X1 would have to = 3. That's OK.
There are 3 persons that make up the ONE GOD. I go along with that.
If you respond to this post, please include in your respond whether you believe the Bible is God's Word & is Truth...Both Old & New Testsment.
digger629 1 year ago
@digger629
RE: "Using your own argument of 1X1X1 would have to = 3. " ...
That's ridiculous.
fleabeard 1 year ago
@fleabeard
No matter how I say it, you disagree. even when I agree with you. I can't win!
digger629 1 year ago
@digger629 hey, if you really can understand how "1+1+1=3" really is one correct way to represent Trinitarian dogma, then I'm sure not complaining. But I had to object when you chose to pretend that I somehow validated the idea that "1x1x1" does too.The good news is that you don't need me to anyways, and long as you can put 1x1x1 into English words that expression your dogma.Do that, and at least you can put a point on your side of the scoreboard, that no one can contest.
fleabeard 1 year ago
@digger629 There is no "the bible"; such a book does not exist; unless you can name which version is complete and infallible.
I do see merit in much of what it said in various bibles, but I can also see much that concerns me.
Ultimately, I don't think anyone knows a really comprehensive set of truths about God, other than what can be discerned without religion or books.
In fact, I think religion and "holy texts" cloud the obvious, and are always counterintuitive to reason and morality.
fleabeard 1 year ago
o...k? lol
11Angst11 1 year ago
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let US make man in OUR image
lmusho 1 year ago
@lmusho
Please read the very next verse
xiaahmad 1 year ago
@xiaahmad If the Shema had intended to express absolute oneness, it would have used the Hebrew word yachid instead of echad. However, the word yachid is never used in reference to God (Elohim)
lmusho 1 year ago
@lmusho
sadly if this were true then it would be a contradiction to what jesus thinks about the most high since he thinks ONLY god is good.
Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone(εἷς)ONE.
see even yashua knew that there was no trinity that only (yachid) God is ONE (echad).
yomamasofat87 1 year ago
@yomamasofat87 When he asked him that it was rhetorical to get him to think about what and why he is asking. Remember Jesus knows the intentions of the heart. He knew the man wasn't going to give up his riches because he did not believe.
lmusho 1 year ago
@lmusho first of all the story never says if the man gave up his riches.
second of all the bible doesnt say that yeshua knew all things.
third of all yeshua has a god.
and you were saying?
yomamasofat87 1 year ago
@lmusho and yeshua was a prophet. and rabbi. and yes yeshua was a man. a created being.
yomamasofat87 1 year ago
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yomamasofat87 1 year ago
@lmusho
JOB JOB
4Where were you when I laid the earths foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
yomamasofat87 1 year ago
Jeramiah 14:14
Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.
the truth hurts doesn't it christians.
yomamasofat87 2 years ago
@yomamasofat87 The prophets that he is talking about is the government of Judah who supported a corp of prophets who promoted the religous views of the king and his advisers.
lmusho 1 year ago
James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God CAN NOT be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Mark 1:13 And He was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by the devil; and He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to Him.
yomamasofat87 2 years ago
@yomamasofat87 Satan was TRYING to tempt him but was unsuccessful since God CAN NOT BE TEMPTED. It's not that no one can try to tempt God. It's that temptation can not work on God.
lmusho 1 year ago
how was everyone in the O.T. saved if they didn't know about jesus? explain that. king david only knew of one g-d. and he followed his commandments. we are not saved by simply believing in g-d but by following his commandments...christians have it all wrong and further more they don't even keep the sabbath.
RAIDERJO76
yomamasofat87 2 years ago
@yomamasofat87 They lived under the law but since no one was capable of keeping the law they also had to sacrifice unblemished animals for atonement. Until the messiah came to be the ultimate sacrifice and take care of it once and for all.
lmusho 1 year ago
if king David was saved without knowing about jesus then how was he saved?
yomamasofat87 2 years ago
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yomamasofat87 2 years ago
Exodus 4:22
Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the L-RD says: Israel is my firstborn son.
vs. what christians believe.
john 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
yomamasofat87 2 years ago
@yomamasofat87 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only BEGOTTEN Son.
Begotten is what was used in the original text or (Monorenh) in Greek.
Big difference between first born and begotten. Begotten - "to procreate as the father"
First born - "first brought forth"
lmusho 1 year ago
@lmusho
Psalm 2:7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the Yaweh: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth him, and the evil one toucheth him not.
yomamasofat87 1 year ago
RAIDERJO76
Numbers 23:19
King James Bible
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Luke 18:19
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked him. "Only God is truly good.
yomamasofat87 2 years ago
a place right outside jerusalem.
so it is not a jewish perspective and in fact i think even the muslims have it more right than the christians do. because at least they worship allah which is acceptible and not mohamad a prophet.
trust me your G-d jesus is very displeased with you worshiping him....this belief that u christians have is strictly catholic. and nuthing else.
shalom.
yomamasofat87 2 years ago
MrGriegos your are absolutley wrong it is not a jewish perspective....so when you see a bad english translation and look at it in the hebrew text not jewish perspective you come to see that the english translation for alot of things in the bible are infact wrong. like when it says moses grew horns you want to believe that it says light when in the hebrew the word is kohren or when u see the word hell u wana think its a firey lake in the depths of the earth.
which is actually sheol.
yomamasofat87 2 years ago
what did jesus say when they asked him what was the greatest comandment?
he said Hear O' Yisrael yahuwah is our elohyim yahuwah is...what? ONE!
futher more in the Tanakh G-d himself says he IS NOT a man!
yomamasofat87 2 years ago
daytonohiofellowship
even paul knows that a man can not be a g-d.
he always seperates the messiah from the father
the holy spirit or the ruah ha kodesh is the spirit of the most high not a being as chrisitians tend to believe....the messiah says himself thru out his teachings that he is not the most high the creator of the universe....the first bible if you want to say there is one is a collection of books NOT one book in whole.
the Tanakh is complete! the others are just other ppls writings.
yomamasofat87 2 years ago
Trinity as a concept or it might even be called a paradigme was created during the meeting at Nicea.
This is a historical fact.
Chistians do have Unitariarism , the Unitarians do beleive only in GOD !
-and they were living off course bofore the church meeting at Nicea besidesConstantinoble
-And the meeting at Nicea.....took place hundreds of years after Christ ....did it not ?
AadamInsaan 2 years ago
If he would read EPH 3:9 he would see "it was hid from ages, and NOW is known".
You can see the Trinity in the New Testament, and than you can see it all in the old Testament (in light of the new) that is what I am seeing anyway...God Bless
daytonohiofellowship 2 years ago
Circular arguments are such a waste of time.
If Jews argue against the Trinity, they do so through Judaic perspectives.
If Muslims argue against the Trinity, they do so through Islamic, Judaic and secular perspectives.
If Christians explain the Trinity according to Christian theology, it is somehow disqualified because it doesn't conform with Jewish or Islamic views.
Its sad that people believe they have the right to define another persons religion.
MrGriegos 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Please check out my video response.
RAIDERJO76 2 years ago
Now, with all the verses I cited, the disagreeing sides might try to claim they are referring to different things. So where should a Christian turn for guidance on how to properly understand those texts? Rabbi Tuvya is guided by the two Talmuds, and other Rabbinic traditions. Christians are guided by the Apostolic Tradition recorded in the New Testament, and some (e.g. me) also by the Apostolic Tradition preserved by the Catholic Church.
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 2 years ago
but there was no NT until Christianity.
so the concept of GOD (number of GODs or GOD heads or person were different)
If trinity or multiple person were there:
They it would have been preached
Jews would have believed it
and Prophets would have believed it and mentioned it.
but we see the things other way around
xiaahmad 2 years ago
XiaAhmad, I see no reason to accept the premise that if a doctrine is true, "Jews would have believed it". As for the prophets, how do you know what they did or did not believe? The prophet whom Genesis was revealed to DID believe that God spoke as a plurality but acted as one, and that the Holy Spirit was present at creation. The prophets whom Job and the Psalms were revealed to DID believe the Holy Spirit took part in creation, et cetera. Daniel DID believe the Son of Man was to be worshiped.
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 2 years ago
If prophets really believed it they would have written it but they didnt.
xiaahmad 2 years ago
Salaam XiaAhmad. How do you determine what the prophets did or did not believe? I determine it based on what is written in the Bible. So the prophet to whom Genesis was revealed believed what is stated in 18:1-3. The prophet to whom the Psalms were revealed believed 33:6 and 104:30. The prophet Daniel believed what is stated in Daniel 7:14. Zechariah believed what is stated in Zech 12:10, et cetera.
But the full picture came into view through Christ Almighty, our Creator.
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 2 years ago
but that they never differenciated between GOD(s)
what your are refering you are just consider hints by christians them self rather than clear teaching
xiaahmad 2 years ago
XIAAHMAD, you claim the Old Testament does not differentiate between gods. Well, neither does the Trinity. THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.
What the Old Testament does teach is that God can come down in human form, that multiple beings took part in creation, that one who is like a son of man will be worshipped by all nations, et cetera, yet despite all that, there is only one God. The doctrine of the Trinity more fully brought that out.
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 2 years ago
Trinity do differentiate
that father is not Son
Son is not Holy ghost
and Holy ghost is not father.
xiaahmad 2 years ago
Salaam XiaAhmad. In the Masoretic Text, there are allusions to the one God's multipersonal ontology. Gen 1:26-27 has the one God speak as plural yet act as one. Gen 1:2 has the Holy Spirit present at creation, Job 33:4, Psa 33:6, Psa 104:30 have the Holy Spirit taking part in creation. Gen 18:1-3, Dan 7:14, Jer 23:6, Isa 9:6 have God taking human form or a man being worshipped or divine. Apostolic teaching brings together the pieces.
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 2 years ago
If these were really related to Trinity then Willam lane would not have said what he said in the video
Secondly if these verse really were about multiple person then
why It was not preached
and why jews didnt believed it instead they were believers of absolute monotheism
xiaahmad 2 years ago
Rabbi Tuvya specifically asked for a text which gives us the Nicene Creed. That sort of developed theology is not present in the Old Testament. But what I'm saying is the Old Testament *alludes* to it. And yes, those verses were preached. But people didn't figure out how it all goes together until after Apostolic teaching began to unfold.
You keep contrasting the Trinity with "absolute Monotheism." The Trinity holds that there is, absolutely, only one God, and thus is, absolutely monotheism.
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 2 years ago
even hindus says that they believe in ONE GOD just in different form but that is not monotheism
thing is Willam lane said that based upon ot we cannot come to believe that GOD is trinity.
xiaahmad 2 years ago
XiaAhmad, again, Dr. Craig's statement was made in the context of Rabbi Tuvya asking for a passage which expresses the Nicene Creed. I agree that fully developed theology of that sort does not have explicit mention in the Old Testament. What I am saying, however, is that there are allusions to God's true nature in several places. But in order for people to understand the full picture, they need the guidance of Apostolic teaching (cf. Acts 8:31).
I might do a video on this later this week.
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 2 years ago
Salaam XiaAhmad. I would note that the Trinity also affirms that there is only one God, so that is not what is at issue here. The Old Testament does not give a clear and explicit description of that one God which is on par with the fully developed Creedal statements, but it does make allusions to God's multipersonal ontology. However, to fully understand and put the pieces together, we need the guidance of Apostolic teaching (hence Acts 8:31).
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 2 years ago
w/salam
But thing is that is main concept about GOD which is about how many GOD(s) are there.
If that was not clear for thousand of year and then it changed suddenly dont you think thats weird?
Jews clearly believe in ONE GOD not 3 in 1 and they had firm believe on it, so suddenly all of it changed
xiaahmad 2 years ago
like from Absolute one God belief it changed
to 3 in 1
so basic concept was not in OT which I think shows that this 3 in 1 concept is wrong one.
xiaahmad 2 years ago
Christian doctrine is not based on the Old Testament alone. And I do not believe this should be a controversial point in Muslim-Christian debate, since Islamic doctrine is not based on the Old Testmane alone (or at all!). Are Muslims really suggesting that the true conception of God *only* be based on the Old Testament? Of course not, so why try to hold Christians to that standard?
There are allusions to God's multipersonal ontology in the "Old Testament," but a person can easily miss them.
AbuKhamrAlMaseeHee 2 years ago
Thing is for christians OT is authentic
and secondly its about concept of GOD that till christianity people believed in ONE GOD so suddenly GOD changed and became 3 in 1 dont make sense.
If Trinity is not in OT that means People were following the wrong concept or number of GODs till christianity thats the point
xiaahmad 2 years ago
God again and again tell in OT that he is ONE GOD.
and people believed that. so if trinity is missing there that means one of these is wrong concept
either Trinity or Absolute Monotheism (as trinity dont exist in bible so that ll be the wrong concept)
xiaahmad 2 years ago
I'm laughing!!! Hahaha wow, this is just pathetic. Expect a response from me within the next week.
RAIDERJO76 2 years ago
Do you disagree with Willam lane?
xiaahmad 2 years ago
Haha, well I don't believe Craig has a very Biblical anthropology, soteriology, or apologetic methodology, but in this context no, I don't disagree with his beliefs on the Trinity. What I disagree with is your pathetic, dishonest, desperate attempt to take Craig's statement out of context to suit your own purposes.
Again, expect a response from me within the next week.
RAIDERJO76 2 years ago
He statement is clear if you want to twist it, its ur choice :)
xiaahmad 2 years ago
Haha. No my friend, you are the one doing the twisting. QUOTE me where Craig said that the Trinity is not at all in the OT. He did not say that; he said that one wouldn't become a Trinitarian if they JUST had the OT. Those are two ENTIRELY different things.
Again, please check out my video response. Unless you're scared to enter into intellectual dialouge, which wouldn't surprise me based on my experience with Muslim apologists.
RAIDERJO76 2 years ago
If it is in OT then why can person came to believe in it with OT.
so ur not making any sense
xiaahmad 2 years ago
@RAIDERJO76
He said One would come to believe that GOD is trinity.
now if ur saying no it there then why person will not come to believe that GOD is trinity
xiaahmad 2 years ago
Xiaahmad, why are you scared to respond to my video respone??
And again, the fact that one would not become a Trinitarian if they had the Old Testament ALONE does not mean that the Trinity is not at all present in the Old Testament. You have to recognize what we call "progressive revelation." God did not choose to FULLY reveal the doctrine of the Trinity until the New Testament. How does that mean that there can't be hints of the Trinity in the Old Testament?
Please respond to my video.
RAIDERJO76 2 years ago
I will respond when I ll get time
but simple point is that if it is there then why person cant come to believe in it just by OT?
not Fully Reveal the doctrine? come on that is the base and that was not revealed
that people for thousand of years didnt know about the quantity of Gods or Quantity in God.
xiaahmad 2 years ago
Xiaahmad, please just try to listen to what I'm saying and actually think about it: why does the fact that the doctrine of the Trinity is not fully revealed in the OT mean that it isn't in the OT at all? Again, we need to recognize that this is progressive revelation. Once the doctrine in more fully revealed in the NT, we can look back and now see the Trinity in the OT. That's all we're saying. The fact that the Trinity isn't explicitly taught in the OT doesn't mean there are no traces of it.
RAIDERJO76 2 years ago
the Quantity of GOD and God heads is progresive revelation?
xiaahmad 2 years ago
so ur saying Jews for thousand of years were worshiping the wrong concept of GOD it self
the very basic?
xiaahmad 2 years ago
I could easily look at 1+1+1 as equaling 3. Not just 1. It has a lot to do with how you view it.
SiriusLordoflisan7 2 years ago
When I went to school 1+1+1=3. Read Carefully:GOD is one in three not three in one. And, no that is not the same. He is not 3 divided by 1. Again 1+1+1=3. Have a nice day!
coreykep 2 years ago
I shall write this again: The Trinity is a 3-D picture not 3 separate pictures.
coreykep 2 years ago
All three are suppose to be Fully GOD them self so they are not part or portion of GOD
xiaahmad 2 years ago
That is what you have been lead, to believe. Christians have exalted, Jesus as God, he never made that claim. He said that he was the Son of God. And I know, that he is! I'm sure you would feel better if the trinity just did not exist. But I can tell you he does, beyond the shadow of a doubt!
coreykep 2 years ago
Exactly eyezopennow. People just take people's remarks out of context and then think they have proved something. Amazing what lengths people will go to in order to justify their beliefs.
Christianjr4 2 years ago
prove it how it is out of context?
so stop lying
xiaahmad 2 years ago
First, Craig has said elsewhere that you can find hints of the trinity in the O.T. (yes, I'm looking for the quote and I'll be sure to give it to you). This alone should tell you that you're taking him out of context.
Secondly, you make leaps in interpretation. You go from (1) Craig saying you wouldn't come to believe it to (2) Craig saying it's not at all there. That's an unjustified leap. You're asserting more than is required. At best you should withhold that remark and take only (1).
Christianjr4 2 years ago
so was he lying here when he said that?
or may be he was afraid of Tovia Singer?
Again if it is there then why would he said that you wouldnt come to believe it?
again ur not making any sense
xiaahmad 2 years ago
No xiaahmad, he was just being honest. You're just misinterpreting what he said. It's the same way Muslims approach science in the Quran. You believe modern science is in verses of the Quran even though it's an undeniable fact that Muslims did not come to believe in modern science because of the verses in the Quran. Just because someone doesn't come to believe in a doctrine because of a text doesn't mean it's not there. Be honest and admit that fact, otherwise deny science or prophecies in Quran
Christianjr4 2 years ago
Thing is he said you cannot
he didnt said People back then didnt he was talking about current time as well :)
so plz I request you to listen to it carefully you are trying to hard to put stuff which is not even there
xiaahmad 2 years ago
This stupid video is no better than saying that if someone had only watched Star Wars IV that they wouldn't expect Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker's Father.... therefore the Star Wars trilogy is incoherent (which, of course, some of it is, especially those darn prequels, but you get my point: this is deliberate ignorance and crude simplification).
Try taking the WHOLE THING in context.
I'm so sick and tired of desperate straw man arguments.
Birdieupon 2 years ago
This is horribly taken out of context...Shame
eyezopennow 2 years ago
it is not that why I gave tovia singers part as well so that you can know what he is talking
also can watch the whole debate
xiaahmad 2 years ago
Does William Lane Craig believe in the Trinity: YES.... you are taking of a debate out of context. WHY DO MUSLIMS DO THAT?
MBI3030 2 years ago
i didnt ask u whether craig is a trinitarian or not :) he admitted there is notrinity in the O.T and thats busts all myths of christians trying to prove tri from o. and the debate is out of context....??? wana see the full debate?? :) xia just took out the most important part of it... wana see the full 1?
Abdulbaseerkhan 2 years ago
Thing is he admitted that Trinity is based upon NT and if we just look at OT then trinity is not there.
thats the point which means for centuries prophets and there follower dont even knew who GOD was and how God was. they were following the wrong concept :)
and this is to show all those evangelicals who are to argue that Trinity is in OT
got it?
xiaahmad 2 years ago
We do not deny that he believes in the Trinity, but the guy admitted that this belief is baseless. That's all there is to it. There is no Trinity in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament). All the Prophets from Adam to Jesus believed in One Singular God. Christianity is false.
ExChristian2716 2 years ago
how is it baseless? Jesus is in the NT. He affirmes His Divine Nature by calling God "Abba". You are just theologically persumming. The Trinity is a COMPLETE revelation of the nature of God. So YES there is ONE God. I am monothesist.
The Trinity is ONE GOD.
the question has NATURE of God. it is unitarian vs Trinitarian...
MBI3030 2 years ago
MBI3030 I think you didnt get the point:
Thing is William lane accepted that trinity was unknown to Jews before Christianity
meaning they were believing in wrong concept of GOD(if trinity is true)
and you will see Evangelicals always try very hard to prove that Trinity is in OT but Willam Lane refuted them.
xiaahmad 2 years ago
for thousands of years GOD didnt told people that he is 3 in 1 and suddenly he becomes tat.
so basic point of this video is to expose the lies of missionaries who says that Trinity is in OT
xiaahmad 2 years ago
Dr William has admitted that if you approach this question ( of Trinity ) to the Old Testament, one wouldn't come to believe that God is A TRIUNE GOD !! in other words Jews are RIGHT that God is ONE not three in one ..it also proves that the New Testament is CORRUPT AND CONTRADICTS the hebrew Bible !!
Here's the score:
Rabbi Tovia = 1, Dr William = 0
This is probably the best debate for Rabbi Tovia ..I really enjoyed it :)
MuslimByChoice 2 years ago
Bang!!! William lane craig.. u admitted to the truth. Thank u for confirming that All prophets before Jesus pbuh worshipped just 1 God and not triune. And we know that Jesus pbuh worshipped One God too. Thank u for confirming the oneness of God i.e Tawheed. Allahu Akbar. Huwa Ahad us Samad Ul Lazee lam yalid wa lam yoolad walam yakullahu kufuwan Ahad. :)
Abdulbaseerkhan 2 years ago 2
your statement is highly begging the question... Craig is Trinitarian....
MBI3030 2 years ago