Affirmative Action Debate: Q & A, part 4 (11 of 14)

[1Littleagger]

How can Poor white children get help please answer?

[derivativesarecool]

1:31 Ms. Crenshaw isn't an economist.

[BrotherAtticus]

Crenshaw is a fool.

Involuntary collectivism is the elephant in the room. When examined as Thomas Sowell did, it shuts down the whole argument. Race cannot logically imply politics, so "Uncle Tom" is the cry of racist idiots. No one chooses what color they are born as, and no one who is currently applying for jobs or college is responsible for the mistakes of the past. So as for the now, if there is such an apt connection between race and status, why not simply give preferences to the poor?

[freein2339]

Tim Wise placed his foot dead in McWhorter's ass....

[Meteorman312]

Tim Wise with nothing but headshots

[Meteorman312]

Joseph sounds so anoying stop yelling please

[FullAccessAgent]

when joseph wise screams with righteous indignation he sounds like tommy davidson's caricature of a white guy.

[Spoon1914]

why is he yelling....losing ya cool ma dude.

[FullAccessAgent]

@Spoon1914 actually, i take back my previous comment. he sounds more like damon wayans in bamboozled.

[chrispvsims98]

Why is he yelling.

[daming209]

charlees murray bell curve was not racist. It showed us about the progress of different groups of people and how they changed over time. It showed how Jew and Asian had the lowest IQ in the past but now it shows how they ranked on the top in terms of IQ. If this book wasn't written, then we wouldn't have known the progress of different ethnic groups.

[islandmuffin]

Obama was admitted into Colombia and Harvard Law Review with poor academic records. Both of Obamas parents were well educated, including his Irish/American mother and Kenyan father, a foreign national:

. Who was oppressed most, (1) Obama, (2) his Irish/American mother or (3) Obamas Kenyan father?

[GreenTreeFrog]

Phillips is dumb. Solution to his complaint (which is already in place in most places): Don't JUST consider race in affirmative action. Consider economic disadvantage, too. That way, you help the poor minorities and poor women more.

[sixchick123]

Joseph C. Phillips lives under a rock

[MikoDollie]

The rich black kids are disadvantaged compared to the other kids of their socioeconomic group. It's like trying to compare Oprah to the families black and white who want the 50k loan when a more accurate comparison demonstrating her disadvantage would be to compare her to someone like Bill Gates.

[MrRingmaster]

bbukfan, stop living in denial.

Perhaps, Mr. Cambell believes the louder he gets, he must be right.

[firefox8192]

THESE BLACK CONSERVATIVES ie. PROFESSIONAL WHITE BEHIND KISSERS ARE GETTING OWENED BY TIM WISE. SHYT!!!!!!!!!

[bbukfan]

Newsflash to Tim Wise:

NOT ALL WHITE PEOPLE ARE RICH.

[Meda01]

But all white people still get the same benefits of being white. Same benefit over a black person in their exact financial situation when it comes to a job, a loan or a run in with a police officer.

[Entropy56]

It sucks to be black.

[bbukfan]

Oh that's bullshit and you know it. Just because you're white doesn't mean that you're automatically set for life. Hard work is what propells you to do better, and if that means that white people do better so be it. My dad grew up in one of the poorest areas of East London and now makes £200,000/annum. It's not because he's white, but it's because he didn't seek an excuse to get an unfair advantage and just worked his arse off. Hell, he got beat up by black people as a child.

[Meda01]

This discussion has nothing to do with British. It's the racism in America how the sad fact we need a law like Affirmative action to even the playing field whites have had for centuries. It doesn't mean every single white banker, cop or employer is racist, but enough are.

[bbukfan]

We have exactly the same debate in the UK, but in general positive discrimination (as we call it) is looked down more. I know white people in the US who have overcome poverty and been successful while suffering racism from black people (yes, it does exist, and to be honest, it's a bit more prevalent).

[Meda01]

wow, I'm not black but I'm offended. You think in AMERICA, racism against whites by blacks is more prevalent? And you know that somehow even though you're in the UK? I mean, you're totally right, blacks in America are in charge of all the major banks and companies. I can't go buy a pizza without running into some rich black CEO who's been trying to force whites to stay in poverty like it's still 1800. Some people right?

[bbukfan]

I'm offended. I'm a dual citizen of the UK and US (born in the UK to an American mother) and have spent almost half my life in the US. I see far more racist language (in the way that most people interpret the word racist) from blacks than whites, mainly since they seem to be obsessed with this notion that all white people are racist. I've spent most of my time in the US in the NYC area, so maybe that's skewing my vision, but I've never seen this great amount of racism you're talking about.

[bbukfan]

If America's so racist anyway, then why did 53% of the population vote for a multiracial (not black) president? And of course there are a lot of white CEOs, mainly since they started these businesses or were handed them hereditarily. If the pro-affirmative action crew spent half the time they do complaining about how racist everyone is and finding excuses to be given advantages, they'd be far more well off.

[Meda01]

Why did 47 million people vote for a women to be one 72 year old heartbeat away from President who didn't know Africa was a continent and not a country? Even after finding out a ton of things about her and having her quit her job, still have millions of people support her for Presidential run in 2012? I like how you shape your views of blacks being racist from NYC (it's a big country overall) and what I'm sure has been imprinted in your mind about stereotypical blacks on tv and movies.

[Meda01]

If you want to see racism against blacks, why don't you get out of the melting pot that is NYC and go somewhere south. Try Mississippi or Alabama, now I haven't been there either but with my ethnic background and the current times and issues this country is dealing with, I'm not going to potentiality risk my safety to prove that racism exists there, I'll take the word of whites who have lived there. But, again, no one is saying ALL whites are racists. If so, Obama wouldn't be President.

[bbukfan]

There's certainly an implication in the video that the pro-AAs believe that only white people have th eability or desire to be racist. They never mention it coming from any other source, but I've heard about the south being bad as well. Here's another rationale for why you see fewer black people in higher positions: they're a far smaller percentage of the population. Blacks comprise 8% whilst 68% are white.

[Meda01]

Blacks comprise about 13 percent. But you should look at a speech Wise gives in a title video here "Tim Wise - white like me" where a poll was taken and whites thought the black percent was like 30% and Latinos (also 13%) was like 25%. Many whites in this country have no real perspective of racial ratios here and because they think blacks and Latinos and Asians are so high in population (which they're not) that leads them to think, they're as many of them as us, so we're already equal.

[bbukfan]

It's all a variable of the area you live in. But the problem with AA is that it's circuitous logic that goes back to its start without solving anything. How can you honestly expect to solve racism by using an inherently "racist" (for lack of a better word, probably preferential) policy? It doesn't foster diversity; it builds resentment and frustration. By giving someone an advantage at the cost of someone else, affirmative action is not equal opportunity.

[amenra13]

@bbukfan - If you think affirmative action builds resentment and frustration, what do you think hundreds of years of government and institutionalized white male privilege continues to foster? How is affirmative action inherently racist if the chief beneficiary of these various programs have been WHITE WOMEN? What is your solution for addressing and counter balancing this inequity?

[islandmuffin]

Rational thinkers oppose collective rights such as Affirmative Action and EEO laws, because such laws are discriminatory to the unprotected/advantaged, where the disadvantaged/protected groups are given discriminatory preferences, because of alleged victimization status.

Moral thinkers believe that man should be punished for his own sins and not for his great grandfathers transgressions.

[islandmuffin]

Those who support equality of outcome are, in fact, racial Marxists and are factually part of the most murderous ideology in all of human history! As non-racists, we support diversity of outcome."

It is irrational to create a hierarchy of victimization where groups are ranked according to oppressor/victimization status, because all groups have both oppressors and victims in their histories.

[BrotherJR76]

Keep in mind that while President Obama did indeed get 53% of the overall vote, he lost the white vote by a wide margin, in particular the white vote over 45. Your response is not as simple and plain as you make it out to be.

[9xxxxxxxxx]

@bbukfan Wow now black people run the U.S.and they are more racist also man the poor white man.

[Entropy56]

Wow, what a whiny black bitch. What a victim mentality she has. Even though our parents are successful professional blacks, we are so discriminated against that we still cant make it. In the mean time the Chinese guy who asked the previous question is just sitting there shaking his head in disbelief.

[snatchog]

Fuck affirmative "blaction", if you believe in this what makes you not a racist?

[GordonJah]

Hi my name is John H. McWhorter and I'm actually quite bad at debating and discussions, so to make up for that shortcoming I will yell and demand attention with my body language.

[adrianfrasco]

i think you have the wrong black man...racist

[redbirdcarter]

Um, John McWhorter was the soft-spoken black dude. I think you're referring to the other guy.

[woofantango123]

Tim Wise is a monster

[ZANGZANGDANZ]

tim wise put his dick in mcwhorter's mouth

[franklinjonesii]

LOL!!! He pretty much did, to me, it seemed that McW realized there for just a brief second that he was on the wrong side of the debate in the final seconds here.

[joepglass]

@ZANGZANGDANZ Thats bullshit, he got owned by that response. Who gives a shit who funded some book years ago, wtf does that have to do with anything? Tim Wise used a baseless attack in response to a serious problem.

[derivativesarecool]

@ZANGZANGDANZ How so? He introduced a red-herring. Wise shoved a tangential point up McWhorter's ass, like how the Jeremiah Wright Controversy was shoved up President Obama's ass during the 08' Presidential Campaign. The bell curve is a mathematical phenomenon that stipulates the density functions for random distributions. That is all. One can prove it both mathematically and empirically. Clearly Wise isn't a mathematician, and you aren't as well.

[beforeyouwrite]

Terence Pell: what on earth are they talking about?

[Romello4u]

This series is very good. I hope it becomes available in whole download.

[BillBisco]

Kimberlé Crenshaw, which statistics? Thanks.

[qlaw04]

Of course, for Kim crenshaw, there'd NEVER be a time to end preferences.  This is a grievance issue.

[keilyngodson26]

Everyone just shut the fuck up and listen to Tim wise. All of your comments are irrelevant now. Someones been studying their Malcolm!

[AntonBatey]

There are several examples that prove that it's environment and/or culture that determines IQ. For example, how Black Northerners fared better on intelligence tests than white Southerners. Should that be a surprise? No more of a surprise than European immigrants that came from culture that didn't value education as much (Eastern and Southern) scored no higher than American Blacks. And in come communities, their scored lower than Northern Blacks.

[AntonBatey]

Are you really trying to strawman my argument? I'm not saying that IQ isn't important -- it is. I'm not one of these knee-bending, back-scratching liberals who thinks that government should step in and keep funding these programs that are actually hurting the poor (affirmative action, for example, which undermines Black achievement). So don't categorize me with some group I don't associate with, please.

[AntonBatey]

Do me a favor and stop saying I'm like a Creationist, or am acting "defensive" (I don't know how you figured that whatsoever) -- can't you have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you without the attacks? At any rate, even Carl Bingham, the creator of the Scholastic Aptitude Test claimed this was "proof" that Jews aren't "highly intelligent".

[AntonBatey]

White European immigrant groups in the U.S. scored below the national average on mental tests. American soldiers tested during World War 2 had an IQ average about 12 points higher than soldiers during World War 1. Also during World War 1, the Scholastic Aptitude Test received low scores among Jews, and declared this "proved" Jews were not intelligent. Within time, they assimilated into "white" society, and their IQ went up.

It's racism that as legitimate as creationism is.

[AntonBatey]

. Jared Diamond makes a more compelling argument on why civilizations succeeded, which contemporary biologists and anthropologists adhere to, unlike the work of Lahn, who's research simply shows certain mutations "related" to brain functions are more frequent in some populations than others; thus not linking "race" with intelligence (which has been refuted to death anyway). UCLA conducted a similar study, if gene variants affect brain function, and, not surprisingly, found no association.

[AntonBatey]

There are also lots of other studies that debunk the race-IQ alleged correlation.

[AntonBatey]

That's what Bruce Lahn tried to prove.First, many have refuted his work, like Dr. Spencer at the National Geographic Society's Genographic Project and some of his own former assistants among many others).His data didn't articulate how these "genetic mutations" were advantageous, so in other words, they don't know what the genes do, so he can hardly make any conclusions about acumen. He found a mutation more common in some groups, but there's no evidence whatsoever it's linked with intelligence

[KHtuber]

Sadly, I know John was one of the Light skin Blacks that got picked on for well, being lighter and keeping his head in the books and being called white, but while reading he form a slight dislike for darker blacks.

[jacobins3000]

"Whites who have the same income as blacks still have about ten times the wealth", maybe those niggers shouldn't have spent all their money on spinning rims.

[noueux]

I'm really finding it quite difficult to take any kind of substantive points out of anything Joseph Phillips is saying. Perhaps I'm too objective for his anecdotes, but it seems to me he's very far removed from this issue. When he criticizes his opponent for speaking of the black middle class and then explains the rhetorical unfairness to an elite few, it becomes apparent that he's speaking only for his friends and neighbors.

[rgb404]

He is of no importance on this debate. Like a new CD with those 1 or 2 songs you just skip over!

[Sonnera]

I agree. He even manages to make the ultimate irrelevant point about the others, claiming they are saying (which they aren't) his kids can't compete and how he doesn't like that. Joseph has been a contributer to radio and discussions, but he is not a serious intellectual on this subject or any other. He is in fact an actor mostly. So I was confused as to why he was asked to participate in this debate.

[JayJ004]

@noueux I only liked his opening

[Creationcreed]

@noueux He may be talking about his experience and his neighbors, but there are some truths in both sides of the spectrum. Remember he is one black conservative, and so there are many other black conservatives who are more apt to explain things better than Joseph, and with more sensitivity of other people's circumstances. So don't just throw out the conservative view altogether(a point for everyone).

[freein2339]

@noueux Joseph Phillips is an idiot...so I agree with your point...

[PhantomLyric]

@noueux excellent point. I agreed what some of what he had to say but his entire performance show he was, like you said, very far removed.

[ohnosayhello123]

tim wise was excellent here

[AntonBatey]

Not really. It's apparent that IQs are based on environment. Blacks were enslaved for hundreds of years, then subjected to over 100 years of Jim Crow terrorism where they were legally confined to ghettos and substandard schooling. That explanation makes more sense and is more plausible than, "Duhhhh....its because their BLACK".

[Entropy56]

Wrong. If you look at the history of Jews in Europe they were discriminated against for two thousand years. They were put into ghettos in parts of Europe long before Hitler came along.  Yet they continued to succeed and excel. You have to stop using slavery as an excuse.

[Meda01]

Why do Jews continue to excel is the question you should ask. The ability to pass on their WEALTH is what allowed Jews and whites to succeed. You think if all the slaves were actually paid for their lifetime labors they wouldn't have been able to make a better life for themselves, their children? Their children wouldn't used that wealth to gain more for their on children and so forth. There's a clear difference between a ghetto where you can still earn and being sold into Slavery. Learn it.

[Entropy56]

Fuck of bastard.

[9xxxxxxxxx]

@Entropy56 Jews have not been in Europe for 2000 years. Ghettos were first created by the Nazis not before Hitler came along. Judaism is a religion not a so called race so the comparison is erroneous. to compare the holocaust and slavery seems farcical because one lasted for twelve years and the other for a little under 400 and that does not even count the middle passage reconstruction and Jim Crow.

[Entropy56]

@9xxxxxxxxx Ghetto: "Formerly, a street or quarter of a city set apart as a legally enforced residential area for Jews. Forced segregation of Jews spread throughout Europe in the 14th – 15th centuries."

"Beginning with the Egyptian bondage and continuing through the Assyrian deportation, the Babylonian captivity, and the great Diaspora, Jewish people have found themselves living among Gentiles of many nationalities"

[9xxxxxxxxx]

@Entropy56 WHO LIVES IN GHETTOS NOW.THE PEOPLE LIVING IN GHETTOS IN EUROPE DURING THE 14TH AND 15TH CENTURY ARE NOT THE SAME PEOPLE THAT WERE IN KHEMET AND THE ANCIENT WORLD.THOSE EUROPEAN JEWS CONVERTED TO JUDAISM IN THE 7TH CENTURY THEY WERE FORMALLY KNOWN AS KHAZARS.THE PRACTICE OF JUDAISM IS WORLDWIDE IT INCLUDES MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLES, BUT IT BEGAN IN AFRICA.

[Entropy56]

@9xxxxxxxxx boring... No one cares except racists...boring...

[draghollow]

Both sides will mention everything except I.Q. levels and genetics. The true reasons for inequality.