remember when wood elves had longer range than everyone else? 36 inches, ahh them were the days huh? I made a list if eternal Guard with a high born w/ the harp to give while unit ward saves and sprites so he can only be hit with 6 s in a challenge. toss in a BSB and a 50 block is now a bigger threat and not so fragile if steadfast
How do you think your wood elves would do against my empire list? 3000 pts, Wizard Lord with rod of power; general of empire w/meteoric iron, sword of power, silver horn; bsb w/ full plate, sword of might, doomfire ring; (two units of) 40 spears w/shield 20 handgunner detachment, 20 free company; 20 handgunners with marks and hochland 2 detachments of 10 handgunners; 40 GS with 20 hg, 20 free comp; 2 cannons, 20 flagallents. thinking about making gun detachments archers.
For every 100 points spent, you get 20 armor piercing, strength 3 shots. Give me about 1500 points of that please :) Plus stand and shoot and hatred :)
Brettonians have a great matchup against that build cuz of how fast they can get into combat and how armored they are to protect from shooting. Whoda thunk? Bretts have a decent matchup.
Well I find this an exciting concept, it has its downsides with frailty but on the other hand it can pose a devestating threat. I really like Wood Elves, the latest WH hasnt been kind but I think theyre underestimated too. I'd love to see a batrep once you have your army ready, I think it will be a great game and have its share of tense moments and drama.. just dont forget the magic items and spells when you play, little mistakes could be crutial if the dice gods turn against you.
@ArachEye This is interesting. I like this idea. Armour Piercing is a big deal. I think the move or shoot drawback is pretty huge, and make them a different sort of prospect-- a static gunline rather than a mobile ambush type force.
@bluetablepainting Not only do wood elves have move and shoot, but repeater crossbows are 24" range. Wood elves would tear dark elves apart at range. Dark elves would only have their artillery, and thats what great eagles are for. You could just go all out great eagles on your heroes, two treemen, and a buttload of archers. Those dark elves would be in trouble. Saves are great, but you can't pass them all.
my take on a good wood elf army is a 4-6 blocks of 10 glade guard, 5x2 formation, that are running around the board just causing havoc. they can shoot in two ranks and move 5 inches and shoot and no penalty. then have mabey tree kin to beef up your line.
im totally down for this power core theory. i have a block of about 25 pink horrors. in my daemon army. I would absolutely love to have a huge block of 100 bloodletters! golly..what a sight that would be :D
Every unit in a game should have a purpose and be able to do it. their should be no useless models. this shows GWs rule systems to be poor and unbalanced. This is why i dont play Gws games anymore. not to say priviteers presses games dont have their prob as well though they seem to be much more at balance than gws games. however the third market is were its at! so many games, good fluff and lots of stuff, free and what u do buy is a fraction of the price of the other games thats my take ;).
@underfire987 This is true about GW but you have to remember that they support 25 different armys between 2 major game systems. (That doesn't cound Blood angels, Space puppys, etc. as Space marines are Space marines.) I'd like to see another company keep up with all 25 different armys like they do which means coming out with new rules and new models in the space of 5 years which is about the gap of new editions for their games. By no means are they perfect in what they do but they are getting
@rustbucket34373 um... bascialy they have a terrible rule system, hence this is why they struggle to keep units balanced. hell they put out new units and it doesnt even seem they have bothered to play test them. basicly i can say a game like shattered verse which is expanding and always adding new things, hell theirs going to be something like 30 races, and hell you can have them all in one army! now again you ask me u get what you pay for with gw? i can say this other game is more worth it!
@rustbucket34373 lol i find it hard myself to not use at least 100 , lol :P. well when i want to talk about something accualy. the Shattered Verse is a minitures wargame, very good and defo worth the buy, and also unexspensive , though u can buy much stuff if u want to. heres the link to the forum their you can look it up and let me or go ahead and ask the forum if u have any questions we will be more than happy to help :)! on secound thought ill send u it in a pm because youtube sucks :/!
@underfire987 better at it. The fantasy FAQ is a good example of this. Also the reason PP is cheaper to play is beacuse you don't have to even get 1/3 of the models to play. A 40 pt. Retrebution army is 21 models. That's usually your troops for 40k. The point is, the $100 you usually save on getting a WM army vs. a 40k army is because of the model count difference.
Holy rambling Batman! That took forever. I'm not trying to attack you underfire, just took forever to post my opinion. :/
@rustbucket34373 thats all right , i should say i am not trying to go on a rant. i am just flaberghasted that people will pay that much, when their are so many game systems out their. though gw has had a hudge advantage of the the 30 years. but i thikn the other companys are catching up now and soon i thikn gw will be hard pressed since, really these other games, they have so many cool ideas. and the main thing to me , Fluff, not generic or unchanging but contsant uniqe changing fluff :)!!!!
also forgot to mention that wood elves are great with your tactic, right up untill you meet the storm banner. like all tactics that are heavy in a single idea thay are great against most things but just get destroyed as soon as thay meet their trump ><,
I think the "power core" idea is a good one but i have to agree with Josh, i've tryed it with my high elf army but it just doesn't seem to work. on the other hand, with my vampire counts ghouls numbering 200+ & still leaving enough pts to take a nice stabby vampire & either a monster or blood knight unit, thay do very nicely, all those poison attacks just overwhelm everything apart from maybe heavy cavalry, but thats what the blood knights are for.
the royal standard of ariel bsb + dryads =4+ ward
get a wardancer noble and give him moonstone of hidden ways (enchanted item) with wardancers means u can teleport btween trees , its good for killing warmachines and slowing units
I definitely agree that repeater xbowmen would tear things up. I haven't seen any mention here of stand and shoot reactions.... you should be getting off hundreds of shots before contact with the enemy, and even more when they charge you! I agree with people that there is a good paper, rock, scissors dynamic, but I think that overall... people are underestimating the strentgh of things like multiple hordes or 150 missile troops.
@jthuffma Stand and shoot to be effective you would have to have few big units not lot of small ones. And if you use big units, it is easier to target them with spells making their shots inefective. Also SaS could be overcome by multicharges (You can SaS only once per turn). A HE player in our group tried uding two units of 50 lotherns and on a paper it looked like nothing can touch them, but reality was quite a different thing.
The MSU variant suggested here would probably work better.
@Iandaredh well I am just saying that... by the time they have taken all that regular damage from all your shots, you get the SaS shots on top of that too. Just saying that is additional damage on top of what Shawn discussed in his vid. If you are talking pure missile damage, then right hordes are not optimal at all. The point is you don't want to use SaS in general because you're getting charged, a position you don't want to be in. But it's just additional damage we didn't mention yet.
i put your tactic to the test and took 120 bows in my tomb king army playing vs brettonian. it didnt go so well, they were at my front line too fast and the grail and questing knights had too much armor for me to do serious damage and because of all the points dumped into bows i didnt have enough melee strength in order to defend my self. so for the future, big blocks of bows dont work vs brettonians, which means you'll probably have issues with a chaos knight spam army.
@DrunknStoner I wouldn't expect this tactic to work in every situation. Bretonnian Knights are fast and heavily armored. Also, Wood Elf archers can move and shoot. What else in a Tomb King army might work well if you had 150 of them? What about running your cavalry in blocks of 20?
well an archer army is certainly playable, but is this kind of non-movement yatsy fun to play? certainly woodelves can pull off something endlessly more complicated and get to use the nice models and not just run-of-the-mill plastics
@YamaDrahma I would recommand unit of 30 quarellers with great weapons, they performed amazingly last time I went against them. They all died to Purple sun Eventually but realy deadly unit.
@Iandaredh hmm i have 20 warriors with shields, 20 warriors with g weapons, 20 ironbreakers, 16 crossbowmen, 10 thunderers, grudge thrower, cannon, bolt thrower and organ gun not counting the heroes
I love ironbreakers... but they would struggle against infantry horde so I think drop them, increase the dwarf warrior blocks to horde. Also considering dropping cannon and moving that to adding more crossbowmen or thunderers. There is just need to pump out more hits now. Templates or lots of shoot
@YamaDrahma I wouldnt use horde with normal warriorrs, the attacks are not worth it, it is better to keep them deep with ranks to get steadfast, even if you do a horde, they are not likely to kill that much.
Horde is great with hammerers and qars with GWs as they have str 6 (resp 5 with quars) and quars are also able to put 20 S4 shots to the enemy. (and hammers are stubborn anyways)
For normal wars it is better to keep them 5x6. But yes twenty is not enough.anyways.
@YamaDrahma I recommend running a proxy game with just blank trays or bases. Even if no opponent, just proxy an enemy army and do a few dry runs. Certainly before painting up a hundred figures!
The problem is you see that big units are deadly those days (and they are). I have faced two units of 100 clanrats each at 1000pts game and it is hard to deal with that. But the second thing is, that warmachines and magic are deadly against such units.
So most armies I face now have also some means to deal with those (man do I hate those wolf riders and marauder horseman).
So saying that you can shoot for 3 turns and than stand and shoot is just too much of a simplification.
@Iandaredh The designers of 8th edition did do a good job with that. There is a counter for everything. War Machine Templates and Breath Weapons counter those large blocks. Hydra breath can even take down blocks of Chaos Warriors. Can anyone make a comprehensive list of all Breath Weapons (monster and magic item and other) in the game?
Hi, you do make some good points but your view is a bit one dimensional. You expect your enemy to do something and you test just one thing.
If I take your one dimensional point of view - I would say, lets take two units of 10 dark riders and two units of harpies. If I start, I will vanguard move the unit and probably hit your archers turn 1. If you start, I hide behind harpies, probably survive your shooting with the cover provided and than hit you turn 2 that all for some 450 points.
@Iandaredh There's a lot of "what if" here. Everything has its counter, and you're right to bring up potential foils to a strategy. In just the two test runs I've made, the Archer Horde's strength is that it can vaporize or neuter enemy units in short order, even in one turn on account of the plenty of arrows to do it. There's a magic point where two units of Glade Guard can move up and hit at S4 at close range. 24 shots = 18 hits = 12 wounds = 10 dead Dark Riders. Theory Hammer of course.
and yes it is a theoryhammer, as I stated in the post I just took same onedimensional view as you did in your test (as far as I can tell from your posts)
but there are lot of things that can ruin your shooting in lots of armies, like stormbanner, transmutation of lead, phas protection, iceshard blizzard, flesh to stone etc. and lots of them affact more than one unit.
@Iandaredh And als one mor thing if we want to make some theoryhammer fun - gladeguard shooting at skavenslaves at short range - hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+ and no save means 0,44 dead slave per archer and turn, at long range it is on 4+ and 4+ so 0,25 dead slave per archer and turn. That means even if you have 4 rounds of shooting with two of them at short range, that is average of 1,4 dead skaven per archer but you can have 6 skavenslaves per one gladeguard
@Foresttroll93 I think that Crossbowmen would work especially well. Not spammed to 150x but certainly four units of 12x. What I noticed was that the Archers could vaporize whole units at S4. Crossbows are S4 and armor piercing, so assuming you can bring enough to bear the math goes something like this: 24 shots = 12 hits (long range) = 8 wounds (no save for Swordmasters). Not enough! Try double that. That means 48x Crossbowmen can effectively prep one block for mopup each turn.
@bluetablepainting DE have rxb's no regular xbows so it is S3 armour piercing with two shots (at -1)
and yes I dont even need to make a calculation to know that SMs will suffer (but if you realy want it its 0.278 dead SM per model on long range (or SaS) and 0.416 dead SM on short range)
@Kriegfreak That's what I'm going for here. I realize full that this army can get rolled up if the enemy gets to grips. But it will capture the essence of the "woodland ambush". If I can hold my own against Renn and Josh then I think that will prove this army.
But with vanguard move, couldnt fast cav hit your line on a charge turn 1 or 2 at the latest? Also, magic and opposing shooting can really hurt against the mass wood elves, since they lack durability. Flyers and fast things can charge quick and just go down the line eating up each unit. Thats the one problem I see with it.
@xerxes1221 Think one step further. This army has eleven (at least) units of archers. At close range a single block can reliably wipe out or reduce one unit of fast cav to rubble. Wood Elves can move and shoot without penalty and are at S4 at close range. Twelve Glade Guard can easily smoke a unit of five fast cavalry. Now if you are thinking "well what about a unit of 20x Fast Cavalry?" then you're on the right track with something. Onward Glade Riders!
a couple of dark elf wizards with chill wind and word of pain. which either stop you from shooting or make you bs 1. 2 or 3 of these guys could really ruin your wood elf army. although i can see my warriors of chaos becoming pin cusions from your relentless shooting. i would love to see a battle report with you army.
my mate plays wood elves, and he is quit impressive with them. takes loads of magic. treesing is a great troop carrier, will make your army very hard to get close to.
I think Wardancers would really help this list. Along with the treemen. The wardancers can really hit hard with the extra attack and strength on the charge. And that's not counting the wardance they use!
@Slanderbot Oh for sure, but think of what age she is? Perfect for her if you ask me. Pretty much anything he touches is a great movie, but yeah Ponyo wasn't at the top of the list.
@Slanderbot Oh for sure, but think of what age she is? Perfect for her if you ask me. Pretty much anything he touches is a great movie, but yeah Ponyo wasn't at the top of the list.
As a Wood Elf player, if youre going to take GG you need to take loads of them. I find they just aren't effective in low numbers. The army is very flexible though and is open to many playstyles. A trinity of Treeman/kin , Wardancers and Wild Riders working together is working really well for me.
@coldnova I've heard that the Treefolk army (Dryads, Treekin, and Treemen) is hard-hitting. Compare a Dryad's statline to a Chaos Warrior! Dryads cost three points less. Downsides: -1 WS, Skirmish, No armor (but they do have 5+ ward). Upsides: +1 Move, +1 Init (6), and Fear. Did I miss anything?
@bluetablepainting also dryads cant have halberds, cant have standart or musician and do not get ranks as they skirmish, and 5+ ward is only against nonmagical attacks.
@bluetablepainting I would say that you must take it in the context of an army. Dryads are definitely not going to work same way as chaos warriors but they are a great unit. Unlike in ChM, they are the cheapest option in WE army costing same as GG and they are good in combat if you dont overestimate them, also they are great if buffed - flesh to stone just makes them awesome. I would definitely use them but it is harder to use them properly then Chaos warriors who can be easily upgraded.
@bluetablepainting I think an old school Warriors of Chaos list consisting of Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh and Chaos Knights of Nurgle could present issues. Horsemen are immune to panic and Nurgle knights got 1+ armour save and -1 to shooting.
@bluetablepainting Dryads are far better than chaos warriors, but they serve a totally different role. Dryads are for screening your troops from enemy fire and taking out medium to light infantry and light cavalry. Halberds are way over rated, and dryads don't need a standard since you can throw a BSB on a great eagle now without fear of the eagle falling out from between his legs.
@bluetablepainting Yup that sums up a Dryad. Good choice in any list, especially for wiping out units weakened by heavy shooting given how mobile they are. Lead by a Branchwraith (with Cluster of Radiants) they can really cause some damage if applied properly. Skrimish i'm finding is a mixed blessing, its basically Fast Cav on foot. The Treefolk Army is great and hard hitting, but gets shafted by anything with lots of Immune To Psych (vamps, daemons), although the Treeman will still hold up.
I prefer in 8th to do 2400 points since the % works out better. 600 for each type where as with 2500 it is 625 for each type which is not as nice in my opinion.
@bluetablepainting soooo are you saying you think hordes are definitely the way to go or does it just depend on troop type? Obviously the wood elves in the army you just described don't do the horde thing. And with hordes, why not run like 800 or 900 skaven slaves with ... or maybe 600 giant rats? Or at the 4 point level, maybe 400 or 500 clanrats?
@jthuffma That is the theory, yes. The rules have fundamentally changed in multiple minor (but significant) ways that bend the curve this direction in a feasible manner. The most notable is Steadfast. But also fighting/shooting in two ranks, horde rules, more powerful command sections, and what else?
@bluetablepainting yeah it seems like... maybe a situation where the basic troop type has been strengthened to the point where masses of them outweighs all the old advantages of souped up special characters, magic, heavy cavalry, monsters, etc. So basically by fielding tons of basic troops should outweigh not having the specialized stuff. Fair assessment? Good for painting biz I would think ;)
@jthuffma Eight Ed. has been great for business. A lot of people need to beef their blocks in a jiffy. I think it's very well designed. There is a counter for everything. Blocks of infantry wither before massed template fire. And bowfire! A balanced army really is the key, and I plan on doing a lot more than archers for this army. I just wanted to shy away from the commone WE builds (Trees, Spellsingers, Glade Riders).
@bluetablepainting well if you take 11 units of 12 GG as you mentioned somewhere that is more than 1500 pts - you are not going to make a balanced list with that unless you are going for 3000+ points.
remember when wood elves had longer range than everyone else? 36 inches, ahh them were the days huh? I made a list if eternal Guard with a high born w/ the harp to give while unit ward saves and sprites so he can only be hit with 6 s in a challenge. toss in a BSB and a 50 block is now a bigger threat and not so fragile if steadfast
TheEagleman67 10 months ago
How about a skink/kroxigor army? it gets me thinking.....
id love your opinion on the idea Dr. BTP
AntolinArjon 1 year ago
i love my name is earl it is a great show.
ushabti1 1 year ago
hello sir
i am nabeel from ahmedabad, india
i have a question
the styrofoam u use
how much would it cost
and from where do i buy it from
i am not able to find it anywhere
thanks
nabeelquadrinq 1 year ago
How do you think your wood elves would do against my empire list? 3000 pts, Wizard Lord with rod of power; general of empire w/meteoric iron, sword of power, silver horn; bsb w/ full plate, sword of might, doomfire ring; (two units of) 40 spears w/shield 20 handgunner detachment, 20 free company; 20 handgunners with marks and hochland 2 detachments of 10 handgunners; 40 GS with 20 hg, 20 free comp; 2 cannons, 20 flagallents. thinking about making gun detachments archers.
Melthornal 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
do you drink?
snefor1 1 year ago
do you drink?
snefor1 1 year ago
For every 100 points spent, you get 20 armor piercing, strength 3 shots. Give me about 1500 points of that please :) Plus stand and shoot and hatred :)
jthuffma 1 year ago
Brettonians have a great matchup against that build cuz of how fast they can get into combat and how armored they are to protect from shooting. Whoda thunk? Bretts have a decent matchup.
OligarchGames 1 year ago
Well I find this an exciting concept, it has its downsides with frailty but on the other hand it can pose a devestating threat. I really like Wood Elves, the latest WH hasnt been kind but I think theyre underestimated too. I'd love to see a batrep once you have your army ready, I think it will be a great game and have its share of tense moments and drama.. just dont forget the magic items and spells when you play, little mistakes could be crutial if the dice gods turn against you.
Lostsoul1889 1 year ago
Warriors of chaos are the masters of all warhammer fantasy
tyranids of 40k
Darkaitr 1 year ago
Uhh BTP.
Dark Elves outshoot Wood elves something chronic.
10pts for 2x str3 armour piercing shots a turn as opposed to 12pts for 1 str 3/4 a turn.
The downside is you can't shoot and move, but give them a shield and you've got a parry save in close combat with hatred.
Dark elves do this massively better. Use the Woodelf uniques like Wand of Wych Elm + Branchwraith Dispel, using Dryads and Treekin to counter.
Hardest matchup will be watchtower.
Hardest opponent will be dwarves.
ArachEye 1 year ago 2
@ArachEye This is interesting. I like this idea. Armour Piercing is a big deal. I think the move or shoot drawback is pretty huge, and make them a different sort of prospect-- a static gunline rather than a mobile ambush type force.
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting Not only do wood elves have move and shoot, but repeater crossbows are 24" range. Wood elves would tear dark elves apart at range. Dark elves would only have their artillery, and thats what great eagles are for. You could just go all out great eagles on your heroes, two treemen, and a buttload of archers. Those dark elves would be in trouble. Saves are great, but you can't pass them all.
Melthornal 1 year ago
wood elves remind me of tau for some reason i dont know why
staticbatch 1 year ago
my take on a good wood elf army is a 4-6 blocks of 10 glade guard, 5x2 formation, that are running around the board just causing havoc. they can shoot in two ranks and move 5 inches and shoot and no penalty. then have mabey tree kin to beef up your line.
dabears8743 1 year ago
Against itself?
Multyreaps 1 year ago
horde of gnoblars??? I think yes
WarFan07 1 year ago
I would love to see a batrep with a Wood Elf army like this.
sasjhwa 1 year ago
horde of gnoblars??? I think yes
WarFan07 1 year ago
very nice!
razor0795 1 year ago
The laughter of children always makes a video better. :)
mblythe21 1 year ago
im totally down for this power core theory. i have a block of about 25 pink horrors. in my daemon army. I would absolutely love to have a huge block of 100 bloodletters! golly..what a sight that would be :D
TFMD301 1 year ago
Every unit in a game should have a purpose and be able to do it. their should be no useless models. this shows GWs rule systems to be poor and unbalanced. This is why i dont play Gws games anymore. not to say priviteers presses games dont have their prob as well though they seem to be much more at balance than gws games. however the third market is were its at! so many games, good fluff and lots of stuff, free and what u do buy is a fraction of the price of the other games thats my take ;).
underfire987 1 year ago
@underfire987 This is true about GW but you have to remember that they support 25 different armys between 2 major game systems. (That doesn't cound Blood angels, Space puppys, etc. as Space marines are Space marines.) I'd like to see another company keep up with all 25 different armys like they do which means coming out with new rules and new models in the space of 5 years which is about the gap of new editions for their games. By no means are they perfect in what they do but they are getting
rustbucket34373 1 year ago
@rustbucket34373 um... bascialy they have a terrible rule system, hence this is why they struggle to keep units balanced. hell they put out new units and it doesnt even seem they have bothered to play test them. basicly i can say a game like shattered verse which is expanding and always adding new things, hell theirs going to be something like 30 races, and hell you can have them all in one army! now again you ask me u get what you pay for with gw? i can say this other game is more worth it!
underfire987 1 year ago
@underfire987 What is Shattered? It sounds interesting. Ha! I still have 400 characters remaining this time for my post. :D
rustbucket34373 1 year ago
@rustbucket34373 lol i find it hard myself to not use at least 100 , lol :P. well when i want to talk about something accualy. the Shattered Verse is a minitures wargame, very good and defo worth the buy, and also unexspensive , though u can buy much stuff if u want to. heres the link to the forum their you can look it up and let me or go ahead and ask the forum if u have any questions we will be more than happy to help :)! on secound thought ill send u it in a pm because youtube sucks :/!
underfire987 1 year ago
@underfire987 better at it. The fantasy FAQ is a good example of this. Also the reason PP is cheaper to play is beacuse you don't have to even get 1/3 of the models to play. A 40 pt. Retrebution army is 21 models. That's usually your troops for 40k. The point is, the $100 you usually save on getting a WM army vs. a 40k army is because of the model count difference.
Holy rambling Batman! That took forever. I'm not trying to attack you underfire, just took forever to post my opinion. :/
rustbucket34373 1 year ago
@rustbucket34373 thats all right , i should say i am not trying to go on a rant. i am just flaberghasted that people will pay that much, when their are so many game systems out their. though gw has had a hudge advantage of the the 30 years. but i thikn the other companys are catching up now and soon i thikn gw will be hard pressed since, really these other games, they have so many cool ideas. and the main thing to me , Fluff, not generic or unchanging but contsant uniqe changing fluff :)!!!!
underfire987 1 year ago
also forgot to mention that wood elves are great with your tactic, right up untill you meet the storm banner. like all tactics that are heavy in a single idea thay are great against most things but just get destroyed as soon as thay meet their trump ><,
HereticDuo 1 year ago
I think the "power core" idea is a good one but i have to agree with Josh, i've tryed it with my high elf army but it just doesn't seem to work. on the other hand, with my vampire counts ghouls numbering 200+ & still leaving enough pts to take a nice stabby vampire & either a monster or blood knight unit, thay do very nicely, all those poison attacks just overwhelm everything apart from maybe heavy cavalry, but thats what the blood knights are for.
HereticDuo 1 year ago
the royal standard of ariel bsb + dryads =4+ ward
get a wardancer noble and give him moonstone of hidden ways (enchanted item) with wardancers means u can teleport btween trees , its good for killing warmachines and slowing units
smo0by 1 year ago 11
@smo0by Dryads ward save doesnt work against magic so............
The Moonstone sounds like a cool idea though
MrAriochish 8 months ago
I definitely agree that repeater xbowmen would tear things up. I haven't seen any mention here of stand and shoot reactions.... you should be getting off hundreds of shots before contact with the enemy, and even more when they charge you! I agree with people that there is a good paper, rock, scissors dynamic, but I think that overall... people are underestimating the strentgh of things like multiple hordes or 150 missile troops.
jthuffma 1 year ago
@jthuffma Stand and shoot to be effective you would have to have few big units not lot of small ones. And if you use big units, it is easier to target them with spells making their shots inefective. Also SaS could be overcome by multicharges (You can SaS only once per turn). A HE player in our group tried uding two units of 50 lotherns and on a paper it looked like nothing can touch them, but reality was quite a different thing.
The MSU variant suggested here would probably work better.
Iandaredh 1 year ago
@Iandaredh well I am just saying that... by the time they have taken all that regular damage from all your shots, you get the SaS shots on top of that too. Just saying that is additional damage on top of what Shawn discussed in his vid. If you are talking pure missile damage, then right hordes are not optimal at all. The point is you don't want to use SaS in general because you're getting charged, a position you don't want to be in. But it's just additional damage we didn't mention yet.
jthuffma 1 year ago
I love the interruption by your daughter. She sounds cute! She even cries (whines) cute. ;)
Fueroballguy 1 year ago
i put your tactic to the test and took 120 bows in my tomb king army playing vs brettonian. it didnt go so well, they were at my front line too fast and the grail and questing knights had too much armor for me to do serious damage and because of all the points dumped into bows i didnt have enough melee strength in order to defend my self. so for the future, big blocks of bows dont work vs brettonians, which means you'll probably have issues with a chaos knight spam army.
DrunknStoner 1 year ago
@DrunknStoner I wouldn't expect this tactic to work in every situation. Bretonnian Knights are fast and heavily armored. Also, Wood Elf archers can move and shoot. What else in a Tomb King army might work well if you had 150 of them? What about running your cavalry in blocks of 20?
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
Most annoying thing in WE army is Lore of Life on Spellweaver :-D
T7 wardancers or T9 treekin are just nasty if he is able to pull that out.
Iandaredh 1 year ago
well an archer army is certainly playable, but is this kind of non-movement yatsy fun to play? certainly woodelves can pull off something endlessly more complicated and get to use the nice models and not just run-of-the-mill plastics
Salvationtower 1 year ago
I'm in half mind to drop ironbreakers from my dwarf list and get some more dwarf warriors on the table. ugh oh. choices!
YamaDrahma 1 year ago
@YamaDrahma I would recommand unit of 30 quarellers with great weapons, they performed amazingly last time I went against them. They all died to Purple sun Eventually but realy deadly unit.
Iandaredh 1 year ago
@Iandaredh hmm i have 20 warriors with shields, 20 warriors with g weapons, 20 ironbreakers, 16 crossbowmen, 10 thunderers, grudge thrower, cannon, bolt thrower and organ gun not counting the heroes
I love ironbreakers... but they would struggle against infantry horde so I think drop them, increase the dwarf warrior blocks to horde. Also considering dropping cannon and moving that to adding more crossbowmen or thunderers. There is just need to pump out more hits now. Templates or lots of shoot
YamaDrahma 1 year ago
@YamaDrahma I wouldnt use horde with normal warriorrs, the attacks are not worth it, it is better to keep them deep with ranks to get steadfast, even if you do a horde, they are not likely to kill that much.
Horde is great with hammerers and qars with GWs as they have str 6 (resp 5 with quars) and quars are also able to put 20 S4 shots to the enemy. (and hammers are stubborn anyways)
For normal wars it is better to keep them 5x6. But yes twenty is not enough.anyways.
Iandaredh 1 year ago
@YamaDrahma I recommend running a proxy game with just blank trays or bases. Even if no opponent, just proxy an enemy army and do a few dry runs. Certainly before painting up a hundred figures!
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
The problem is you see that big units are deadly those days (and they are). I have faced two units of 100 clanrats each at 1000pts game and it is hard to deal with that. But the second thing is, that warmachines and magic are deadly against such units.
So most armies I face now have also some means to deal with those (man do I hate those wolf riders and marauder horseman).
So saying that you can shoot for 3 turns and than stand and shoot is just too much of a simplification.
Iandaredh 1 year ago
@Iandaredh The designers of 8th edition did do a good job with that. There is a counter for everything. War Machine Templates and Breath Weapons counter those large blocks. Hydra breath can even take down blocks of Chaos Warriors. Can anyone make a comprehensive list of all Breath Weapons (monster and magic item and other) in the game?
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
Hi, you do make some good points but your view is a bit one dimensional. You expect your enemy to do something and you test just one thing.
If I take your one dimensional point of view - I would say, lets take two units of 10 dark riders and two units of harpies. If I start, I will vanguard move the unit and probably hit your archers turn 1. If you start, I hide behind harpies, probably survive your shooting with the cover provided and than hit you turn 2 that all for some 450 points.
Iandaredh 1 year ago
@Iandaredh There's a lot of "what if" here. Everything has its counter, and you're right to bring up potential foils to a strategy. In just the two test runs I've made, the Archer Horde's strength is that it can vaporize or neuter enemy units in short order, even in one turn on account of the plenty of arrows to do it. There's a magic point where two units of Glade Guard can move up and hit at S4 at close range. 24 shots = 18 hits = 12 wounds = 10 dead Dark Riders. Theory Hammer of course.
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting there is always a lot of what ifs ;-)
and yes it is a theoryhammer, as I stated in the post I just took same onedimensional view as you did in your test (as far as I can tell from your posts)
but there are lot of things that can ruin your shooting in lots of armies, like stormbanner, transmutation of lead, phas protection, iceshard blizzard, flesh to stone etc. and lots of them affact more than one unit.
Also good old screening units do a lot.
Iandaredh 1 year ago
@Iandaredh And als one mor thing if we want to make some theoryhammer fun - gladeguard shooting at skavenslaves at short range - hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+ and no save means 0,44 dead slave per archer and turn, at long range it is on 4+ and 4+ so 0,25 dead slave per archer and turn. That means even if you have 4 rounds of shooting with two of them at short range, that is average of 1,4 dead skaven per archer but you can have 6 skavenslaves per one gladeguard
Isnt theoryhammer nice?
Iandaredh 1 year ago
could you do this with Dark elf crossbowmen?i really like those :)
Foresttroll93 1 year ago
@Foresttroll93 I think that Crossbowmen would work especially well. Not spammed to 150x but certainly four units of 12x. What I noticed was that the Archers could vaporize whole units at S4. Crossbows are S4 and armor piercing, so assuming you can bring enough to bear the math goes something like this: 24 shots = 12 hits (long range) = 8 wounds (no save for Swordmasters). Not enough! Try double that. That means 48x Crossbowmen can effectively prep one block for mopup each turn.
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting DE have rxb's no regular xbows so it is S3 armour piercing with two shots (at -1)
and yes I dont even need to make a calculation to know that SMs will suffer (but if you realy want it its 0.278 dead SM per model on long range (or SaS) and 0.416 dead SM on short range)
Iandaredh 1 year ago
If anything the Wood Elf army sounds fun to play.
Kriegfreak 1 year ago
@Kriegfreak That's what I'm going for here. I realize full that this army can get rolled up if the enemy gets to grips. But it will capture the essence of the "woodland ambush". If I can hold my own against Renn and Josh then I think that will prove this army.
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
Can't wait for that battle report.
Emidretrauqe 1 year ago
But with vanguard move, couldnt fast cav hit your line on a charge turn 1 or 2 at the latest? Also, magic and opposing shooting can really hurt against the mass wood elves, since they lack durability. Flyers and fast things can charge quick and just go down the line eating up each unit. Thats the one problem I see with it.
xerxes1221 1 year ago
@xerxes1221 Think one step further. This army has eleven (at least) units of archers. At close range a single block can reliably wipe out or reduce one unit of fast cav to rubble. Wood Elves can move and shoot without penalty and are at S4 at close range. Twelve Glade Guard can easily smoke a unit of five fast cavalry. Now if you are thinking "well what about a unit of 20x Fast Cavalry?" then you're on the right track with something. Onward Glade Riders!
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
i knew it...shawn is made of wood elves!!
sonhighguy 1 year ago
a couple of dark elf wizards with chill wind and word of pain. which either stop you from shooting or make you bs 1. 2 or 3 of these guys could really ruin your wood elf army. although i can see my warriors of chaos becoming pin cusions from your relentless shooting. i would love to see a battle report with you army.
my mate plays wood elves, and he is quit impressive with them. takes loads of magic. treesing is a great troop carrier, will make your army very hard to get close to.
and magic d
bushmanx91 1 year ago
I think Wardancers would really help this list. Along with the treemen. The wardancers can really hit hard with the extra attack and strength on the charge. And that's not counting the wardance they use!
SneakyAvocado 1 year ago
@SneakyAvocado This army will feature two Treemen, as Shepherds and mop up units.
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
Your daughter is very smart, Ponyo is a GREAT movie. ^^
theN389 1 year ago
@theN389 good movie, but not one of his best imo :O
Slanderbot 1 year ago
@Slanderbot Oh for sure, but think of what age she is? Perfect for her if you ask me. Pretty much anything he touches is a great movie, but yeah Ponyo wasn't at the top of the list.
theN389 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Slanderbot Oh for sure, but think of what age she is? Perfect for her if you ask me. Pretty much anything he touches is a great movie, but yeah Ponyo wasn't at the top of the list.
theN389 1 year ago
As a Wood Elf player, if youre going to take GG you need to take loads of them. I find they just aren't effective in low numbers. The army is very flexible though and is open to many playstyles. A trinity of Treeman/kin , Wardancers and Wild Riders working together is working really well for me.
coldnova 1 year ago
@coldnova I've heard that the Treefolk army (Dryads, Treekin, and Treemen) is hard-hitting. Compare a Dryad's statline to a Chaos Warrior! Dryads cost three points less. Downsides: -1 WS, Skirmish, No armor (but they do have 5+ ward). Upsides: +1 Move, +1 Init (6), and Fear. Did I miss anything?
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting also dryads cant have halberds, cant have standart or musician and do not get ranks as they skirmish, and 5+ ward is only against nonmagical attacks.
Iandaredh 1 year ago
@Iandaredh Those are excellent points. So, on the net are Dryads as good a value as Chaos Warriors?
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting I would say that you must take it in the context of an army. Dryads are definitely not going to work same way as chaos warriors but they are a great unit. Unlike in ChM, they are the cheapest option in WE army costing same as GG and they are good in combat if you dont overestimate them, also they are great if buffed - flesh to stone just makes them awesome. I would definitely use them but it is harder to use them properly then Chaos warriors who can be easily upgraded.
Iandaredh 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting nop. also choas have rerolls on panic and other stuff like that and marks which on large units is epic
trainchrash 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting I think an old school Warriors of Chaos list consisting of Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh and Chaos Knights of Nurgle could present issues. Horsemen are immune to panic and Nurgle knights got 1+ armour save and -1 to shooting.
Jesyce86 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting Dryads are far better than chaos warriors, but they serve a totally different role. Dryads are for screening your troops from enemy fire and taking out medium to light infantry and light cavalry. Halberds are way over rated, and dryads don't need a standard since you can throw a BSB on a great eagle now without fear of the eagle falling out from between his legs.
Melthornal 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting Yup that sums up a Dryad. Good choice in any list, especially for wiping out units weakened by heavy shooting given how mobile they are. Lead by a Branchwraith (with Cluster of Radiants) they can really cause some damage if applied properly. Skrimish i'm finding is a mixed blessing, its basically Fast Cav on foot. The Treefolk Army is great and hard hitting, but gets shafted by anything with lots of Immune To Psych (vamps, daemons), although the Treeman will still hold up.
coldnova 1 year ago
I prefer in 8th to do 2400 points since the % works out better. 600 for each type where as with 2500 it is 625 for each type which is not as nice in my opinion.
BelacTheBard 1 year ago
apparently not to lazy to put a picture over it. :P
MrJRwow 1 year ago
@MrJRwow Yeah, I changed my mind. But I was still too lazy to edit out the statement that I wasn't going to do it.
bluetablepainting 1 year ago 9
@bluetablepainting i think looking at your ugly mug would be a little more interesting lol
BSpanda5 1 year ago
What about Dwarves for this?
dioramagames 1 year ago
@dioramagames Yup. I think it would be especially good with Dwarves. I'd think fifty thunderers for a start.
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting soooo are you saying you think hordes are definitely the way to go or does it just depend on troop type? Obviously the wood elves in the army you just described don't do the horde thing. And with hordes, why not run like 800 or 900 skaven slaves with ... or maybe 600 giant rats? Or at the 4 point level, maybe 400 or 500 clanrats?
jthuffma 1 year ago
@jthuffma That is the theory, yes. The rules have fundamentally changed in multiple minor (but significant) ways that bend the curve this direction in a feasible manner. The most notable is Steadfast. But also fighting/shooting in two ranks, horde rules, more powerful command sections, and what else?
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting Wounding on 6's dont forget that. Even armies of Skaven slaves, and Snotlings are dangerous now.
Amaxander 1 year ago
@Amaxander That is a HUGE point! S3 can wound T10. Takes just 25-30 shots to take down a war machine.
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting
In 7th you have to exactly the same amount of hits to kill a warmachine (kill its crew)
Wounding on 6s is irrelevant. Besides the steamtank, what unit has t7? s3 wounded s6 on 6s in 7th and only t7 was not killable.
Don't get me wrong, I like your approach but theoryhammer is actually a strong tool one should use.
RoninXiC 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting yeah it seems like... maybe a situation where the basic troop type has been strengthened to the point where masses of them outweighs all the old advantages of souped up special characters, magic, heavy cavalry, monsters, etc. So basically by fielding tons of basic troops should outweigh not having the specialized stuff. Fair assessment? Good for painting biz I would think ;)
jthuffma 1 year ago
@jthuffma Eight Ed. has been great for business. A lot of people need to beef their blocks in a jiffy. I think it's very well designed. There is a counter for everything. Blocks of infantry wither before massed template fire. And bowfire! A balanced army really is the key, and I plan on doing a lot more than archers for this army. I just wanted to shy away from the commone WE builds (Trees, Spellsingers, Glade Riders).
bluetablepainting 1 year ago
@bluetablepainting well if you take 11 units of 12 GG as you mentioned somewhere that is more than 1500 pts - you are not going to make a balanced list with that unless you are going for 3000+ points.
Iandaredh 1 year ago
2nd? did i win? am i cool?
sirpipple1 1 year ago
First!
Anyway, points were definitely made. And they were good.
jilloplo 1 year ago