Christian believers or "believers" always try to contradict logic and fallibilty by proclaiming that people who talk of logic are uneducated or ruthless. And they often spew out their catch phrase: "Read the testament and you shall believe", what they are not aware of is that most agnosticists and atheists are scholars, professors and generally people who spend time into researching these scripts.
You've done an amazing job there lets see how someone can contradict this support :)
"As a being would make things, he may not make others. for things are of fiction or use, yet others are of want of benevolance. As a being would make others shall it be judged if his creations be not fiction."
"As a being would make things, he may not make others. for things are of iction or use, yet others are of want of benevolance. As a being would make others shall it be judged if his creations be not fiction."
That is clearly not what Paul means. Paul is not saying that we cannot ask God things in prayer, as Paul himself says that he prays for the saints. Paul means "question God" in the sense of questioning His motives, His intent. No low ranking officer asks a commander why he makes a certain move, but he might ask the same commander for help if he knew him personally. That should be easy to understand; but I doubt you read the Bible like you read anything else.
But James says that I CAN question God. Not understanding a "certian move", as you phrase it, might be called a lack of wisdom which is precisely when James recommends we ask God. You can't have it both ways. Either God is a loving father and we, his children or a tyrannical "commander" and we, merely soldiers.
I have read the bible among many other books. And I have no problem pointing out that the biblical god is damn variable for something which "is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
What James says and what Paul says is determined by the context. I'm not asking for it "both ways". Surely you would be angered if I completely cut apart what you were saying, and made you contradict yourself by refusing to allow context to define your word usage. You're using a double standard. Paul is not forbidding prayer, and James is not condoning questioning the motives of God.
I'm still inclined to disagree. I don't see why an omnipotent and benevolent god would have any problem fielding questions about his motives and actions especially if his motives are always pure and his actions are always just. If he made me, then he made me the smug prick that I am and if he's omniscient, he knew what I would ask before the world began. James 1:5 says it's ok to ask god ANYTHING and he won't get mad. Paul says "How dare you question god's motives!" That is a contradiction.
James says that we can ask anything OF God. As in, prayer for things. It is extremely clear what these two texts mean. Do you think that Paul, then, did not believe in prayer? Was that what he was actually teaching there? That's absurdity. Paul is ACTUALLY not even teaching that God will not tolerate questioning. He is pointing out that we are small and insignificant in all of our faculties compared to the Creator.
No. James is saying we should ask god for answers, not for things. Paul is saying that we are too insignificant to presume to question.
I contend that we are not insignificant at all, especially when compared to the imaginary friend of bronze age tribesmen. (Though I will admit that asking that imaginary friend for wisdom is more than a little irrational.)
The text reads: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given to him."
The meaning is very clear. James is saying that we should not hesitate to ask God for wisdom. Praying for wisdom is not defying God by questioning His Lordship.
I do see your point, I just don't think it's valid and I'm showing you why. The only way that you can come to your conclusions is by grossly mishandling the texts, and forcing them to say what they are not saying. James is telling the believers that they can ask God for wisdom, probably in regard to doctrinal matters or some other common issue. Paul is stating that we are insignificant compared to God, in intellect and so forth. Paul does not even forbid asking God anything in the first place.
No. I'm not grossly mishandling the texts. I'm taking a literal view of the actual words.
You're the one trying to interpret them so the obvious contradiction is obscured or justified.
It's called apologetics. Congratulations! You've joined the proud ranks of bible apologists. Count yourself among the elite such as VenomfangX, Kent Hovind, Ken Hamm and Ray Comfort.
I find that insulting; I not not support any of those men in their ministries.
Is harmonizing the Bible not allowed? There's a double standard here. Like I said before-- You would be very frustrated if I decided to take the "literal view" of your words and make you contradict yourself. You'd tell me that you said nothing of the kind, and that I needed to not take your words out of context. Yet you do not give Paul and James the same respect I would give to you by not doing that.
You might assume I'd be frustrated but I wouldn't.
Feel free to take anything you want out of context. My arguments have been clear and coherent and I'm not the one dedicated to explaining away inconsistencies in a supposedly divinely inspired bronze age text that can't even agree with itself. Whether or not you like or support the men I mentioned doesn't change the fact that you are engaging in the same practice as they are. Apologetics are apologetics.
The god of the bible (note he says he never changes) proves time and time again that he is evil and not worth worship.
But that is beside the point sense the bible was clearly writen by a BUNCH of old MEN who knew nothing about MORALITY, SCIENCE OR STORY STRUCTURE. In other words it plays out like a bad fan-fiction.
For me 'Biblical morality stories' like this one provide the best reason to believe that the Christian God can not exist. A God that equips humans with a sense of morality that can not but argue against His own existence, whilst there is so much at stake, would be truly evil.
Great videos, but I confess that find repetitious bible quotes just as boring as when I was at school. Very useful for those, unlike me, who have believed but doubt the bible, so 5* for you, and a new subscriber.
Thanks Sarge084. We really have to walk a fine line between too much scripture quoting and too little.
The target audience in our minds are believers (fundamental literalists) that have questions or anyone on the fence. Consequently, we feel compelled to show them "book, chapter, and verse".
Wonderful sries...I just found it through FFreethinker and am totally impressed with your arguments and your honest questioning...thanks for the uploads and peace be with.
Superb spotlight-shining on the way the bible's contradictions are enabled by the cop-out "Who are you to ask questions?" People who award themselves that wild card to try and slide out of anything they can't answer really should be aware of how badly it comes across to others.
Thanks for continuing to ask your inconvenient questions, HS!
Thanks galengranath. You can thank Mrs. Holysinecure for the tone of the message's delivery.
I am glad you feel like these are a great service, but the reason we spend time doing this is primarily for our children and secondarily for adherents that can still be reached by logic and reason.
I was interested in the quote from Roans 6 about pharoah.. I looked up Romans 6 in the Skepticsannotatedbible site (KJV) but didn't see it there. Might it be in a different place?
For the fundamentalist Christian that believes in an inerrant and literally translated Bible, this scripture requires some fantastic twisting and turning with apologetics to reconcile.
I saw an "ok" video on this topic recently, but it ultimately said god didn't "respect" people. But you captured the subtlety - it's not about whether God respects ALL people - it's about God's impartiality. And let's face it. He's a partial mo-fo. HAHAHAAH.
Wow, this was so powerful....I really don't see how any person who considers himself a believer could watch this dispassionately and be unmoved by the message. When I was associated with a religion, I remember how it was considered such a virtue to ask no questions, and to have *faith* in whatever the changing message of the day was. I remember the scripture about god being the same yesterday today and forever, and my confusion when I read of the crimes god committed and bragged about. 5stars
Thank you 8journey8. Our entire video series is based in fundamental christianity which holds the Bible to be inerrant and divinely inspired. Starting from that position, this stuff doesn't make sense.
On the other hand, recognizing its human authorship makes it much easier to understand its many flaws.
How else? They will put their fingers in their ears 8journey8. But maybe a bit of actual honesty - or the whiff of honesty - will reach them, and it will set them free ...
Felix Mendelssohn brought me here =) and it turned out to be a good message too. Very nice.
Forseti6288 4 months ago
I've submitted my video rebuttal to this video.
/watch?v=GAIGHb-DcGs
ETHANGELIST 7 months ago
excellent
216trixie 2 years ago
That is harsh...
leeroynaggins 2 years ago
Christian believers or "believers" always try to contradict logic and fallibilty by proclaiming that people who talk of logic are uneducated or ruthless. And they often spew out their catch phrase: "Read the testament and you shall believe", what they are not aware of is that most agnosticists and atheists are scholars, professors and generally people who spend time into researching these scripts.
You've done an amazing job there lets see how someone can contradict this support :)
Baneheart666 2 years ago 2
you know, god shows paul, jesus and hardens Phaerohs heart, so that his plan can be carried out
arachnophile01 2 years ago
This series is great. I've not seen a bible-morality series so in depth. Well done!
Katsuhisa777 2 years ago 11
Thanks for the comments!
holysinecure 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"As a being would make things, he may not make others. for things are of fiction or use, yet others are of want of benevolance. As a being would make others shall it be judged if his creations be not fiction."
~ Greystone.
rxangel18 2 years ago
"As a being would make things, he may not make others. for things are of iction or use, yet others are of want of benevolance. As a being would make others shall it be judged if his creations be not fiction."
~ Greystone.
rxangel18 2 years ago
Another biblical inconsistancy, Paul says "who are we to pose any question to God?"
But James 1:5 says "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God...and it shall be given him."
Goat1977fu 2 years ago
That is clearly not what Paul means. Paul is not saying that we cannot ask God things in prayer, as Paul himself says that he prays for the saints. Paul means "question God" in the sense of questioning His motives, His intent. No low ranking officer asks a commander why he makes a certain move, but he might ask the same commander for help if he knew him personally. That should be easy to understand; but I doubt you read the Bible like you read anything else.
Unw0rthy0fn0te 2 years ago
But James says that I CAN question God. Not understanding a "certian move", as you phrase it, might be called a lack of wisdom which is precisely when James recommends we ask God. You can't have it both ways. Either God is a loving father and we, his children or a tyrannical "commander" and we, merely soldiers.
I have read the bible among many other books. And I have no problem pointing out that the biblical god is damn variable for something which "is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Goat1977fu 2 years ago
What James says and what Paul says is determined by the context. I'm not asking for it "both ways". Surely you would be angered if I completely cut apart what you were saying, and made you contradict yourself by refusing to allow context to define your word usage. You're using a double standard. Paul is not forbidding prayer, and James is not condoning questioning the motives of God.
Unw0rthy0fn0te 2 years ago
I'm still inclined to disagree. I don't see why an omnipotent and benevolent god would have any problem fielding questions about his motives and actions especially if his motives are always pure and his actions are always just. If he made me, then he made me the smug prick that I am and if he's omniscient, he knew what I would ask before the world began. James 1:5 says it's ok to ask god ANYTHING and he won't get mad. Paul says "How dare you question god's motives!" That is a contradiction.
Goat1977fu 2 years ago
James says that we can ask anything OF God. As in, prayer for things. It is extremely clear what these two texts mean. Do you think that Paul, then, did not believe in prayer? Was that what he was actually teaching there? That's absurdity. Paul is ACTUALLY not even teaching that God will not tolerate questioning. He is pointing out that we are small and insignificant in all of our faculties compared to the Creator.
Unw0rthy0fn0te 2 years ago
No. James is saying we should ask god for answers, not for things. Paul is saying that we are too insignificant to presume to question.
I contend that we are not insignificant at all, especially when compared to the imaginary friend of bronze age tribesmen. (Though I will admit that asking that imaginary friend for wisdom is more than a little irrational.)
Goat1977fu 2 years ago
The text reads: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given to him."
The meaning is very clear. James is saying that we should not hesitate to ask God for wisdom. Praying for wisdom is not defying God by questioning His Lordship.
Unw0rthy0fn0te 2 years ago
But if my questions are regarding his lordship, his goodness and his very existence? James says it's still ok to ask and Paul says STFU.
And THAT is my entire point. Thank you for failing to see it time and again.
Goat1977fu 2 years ago
I do see your point, I just don't think it's valid and I'm showing you why. The only way that you can come to your conclusions is by grossly mishandling the texts, and forcing them to say what they are not saying. James is telling the believers that they can ask God for wisdom, probably in regard to doctrinal matters or some other common issue. Paul is stating that we are insignificant compared to God, in intellect and so forth. Paul does not even forbid asking God anything in the first place.
Unw0rthy0fn0te 2 years ago
No. I'm not grossly mishandling the texts. I'm taking a literal view of the actual words.
You're the one trying to interpret them so the obvious contradiction is obscured or justified.
It's called apologetics. Congratulations! You've joined the proud ranks of bible apologists. Count yourself among the elite such as VenomfangX, Kent Hovind, Ken Hamm and Ray Comfort.
Goat1977fu 2 years ago
I find that insulting; I not not support any of those men in their ministries.
Is harmonizing the Bible not allowed? There's a double standard here. Like I said before-- You would be very frustrated if I decided to take the "literal view" of your words and make you contradict yourself. You'd tell me that you said nothing of the kind, and that I needed to not take your words out of context. Yet you do not give Paul and James the same respect I would give to you by not doing that.
Unw0rthy0fn0te 2 years ago
You might assume I'd be frustrated but I wouldn't.
Feel free to take anything you want out of context. My arguments have been clear and coherent and I'm not the one dedicated to explaining away inconsistencies in a supposedly divinely inspired bronze age text that can't even agree with itself. Whether or not you like or support the men I mentioned doesn't change the fact that you are engaging in the same practice as they are. Apologetics are apologetics.
Goat1977fu 2 years ago 2
The god of the bible (note he says he never changes) proves time and time again that he is evil and not worth worship.
But that is beside the point sense the bible was clearly writen by a BUNCH of old MEN who knew nothing about MORALITY, SCIENCE OR STORY STRUCTURE. In other words it plays out like a bad fan-fiction.
SuperMerlin100 2 years ago 6
For me 'Biblical morality stories' like this one provide the best reason to believe that the Christian God can not exist. A God that equips humans with a sense of morality that can not but argue against His own existence, whilst there is so much at stake, would be truly evil.
ticobassie 2 years ago 3
★★★★★
Katalyzt 2 years ago 2
You got me.
I subscribed.
Great work, on all your videos.
RecluseOfTheStars 2 years ago
fuuuuuck god. another great video.
LordHines420 2 years ago
Great videos, but I confess that find repetitious bible quotes just as boring as when I was at school. Very useful for those, unlike me, who have believed but doubt the bible, so 5* for you, and a new subscriber.
Sarge084 2 years ago
Thanks Sarge084. We really have to walk a fine line between too much scripture quoting and too little.
The target audience in our minds are believers (fundamental literalists) that have questions or anyone on the fence. Consequently, we feel compelled to show them "book, chapter, and verse".
Thanks for suffering through it!
holysinecure 2 years ago
7:50 This one of the aspects that makes the Abrahamic religions so powerful.
anthonzi 2 years ago
Agreed!
That thought control is why one feels guilty even doubting. Very powerful stuff.
Thanks for the comment.
holysinecure 2 years ago
Another great vid! =)
xCrazyJayx 2 years ago
Thanks XCrazyJayx!
holysinecure 2 years ago
I think it was a character in "Weeds" that wrote the qoute you used. ;-)
Major point for the JW's, FYI.
ILYIAB 2 years ago
Wonderful sries...I just found it through FFreethinker and am totally impressed with your arguments and your honest questioning...thanks for the uploads and peace be with.
MasterOhSo 2 years ago
Thanks MasterOhSo, I already sent FFreeThinker a PM thanking him for the opportunity to get more viewership for the series.
holysinecure 2 years ago
Superb spotlight-shining on the way the bible's contradictions are enabled by the cop-out "Who are you to ask questions?" People who award themselves that wild card to try and slide out of anything they can't answer really should be aware of how badly it comes across to others.
Thanks for continuing to ask your inconvenient questions, HS!
Wonderful to see you uploading again. ;^>
QualiaSoup 2 years ago 2
Thanks QualiaSoup, it is likewise always a pleasure.
holysinecure 2 years ago
educating and entertaining :) i really missed your videos.
blues260 2 years ago
Thanks blues260, its good to get this video published!
holysinecure 2 years ago
Maybe you could meet Jesus,God ure self
rather then make false teachings?
God is a real person,do u think he will go lightly on those that spread deception>>rev 22,19 and 20
If do not fear God,God calls it dumb>>>proverbs
So here is the truth John 3.16
urbanprophet777 2 years ago
Please show me with evidence /scripture where my "teachings" are false. Perhaps we can discuss this?
holysinecure 2 years ago
So here is the truth John 3.16
Typical ignorant christian. John 3:16 was never in the orignal text. You fail.
peaceplease83 2 years ago
Wow. You trying to quote the bible, but you can't even do THAT correctly.
xCrazyJayx 2 years ago
I'm talking about urbanprophet777 by the way, not holysinecure
xCrazyJayx 2 years ago
there is many different versions of the bible so there might be differences between their bible and yours
perrson22 2 years ago
I'm not talking about this video, I'm talking about a user called urbanprophet777. Just take a look at what he's saying and you'll see what I mean.
xCrazyJayx 2 years ago
where is the deception and false teachings? holysinecure backs up everything with biblical scripture.
Katsuhisa777 2 years ago 2
Thanks for posting. Well worth the wait.
ndjarnag 2 years ago
Thanks ndjarnag.
We hope it doesn't take 9 months to get the next video posted!
holysinecure 2 years ago
This god seems more like the devil than a righteous loving God
juglord 2 years ago 2
Yea "Yahweh" is more like a War Deity, favoring his "people" over others. Murdering all the others in his demonic name.
HappyModder87 2 years ago
Ever tried making an estimate of who kills more people in the bible?
unsuprisingly God wins by millions :3
Katsuhisa777 2 years ago 4
lol...so true so true!!!
whitemisa 2 years ago
May I say......It was about time!!!
I've been waiting for a new video for ages.....but it was well worth the wait.
Very well done!
buzzausa 2 years ago
Thank you buzzausa.
holysinecure 2 years ago
Thanks galengranath. You can thank Mrs. Holysinecure for the tone of the message's delivery.
I am glad you feel like these are a great service, but the reason we spend time doing this is primarily for our children and secondarily for adherents that can still be reached by logic and reason.
Thanks again for your kind comments.
holysinecure 2 years ago
I was interested in the quote from Roans 6 about pharoah.. I looked up Romans 6 in the Skepticsannotatedbible site (KJV) but didn't see it there. Might it be in a different place?
Brianswers 2 years ago
Found it. Romans 9. :)
Brianswers 2 years ago
Romans 9:17-18
holysinecure 2 years ago
You are quite welcome, thanks for the kind words.
holysinecure 2 years ago
Well done as usual! Thank you for your excellent work.
Toxteth78 2 years ago
Whoa....I've never noticed these verses or the particular implicationss of the story of Pharoah before...
....that's heavy. And now, I'm totally bummed out...
chuckfaststrat 2 years ago
For the fundamentalist Christian that believes in an inerrant and literally translated Bible, this scripture requires some fantastic twisting and turning with apologetics to reconcile.
Thanks for your comment.
holysinecure 2 years ago
I agree. As a former christian, I began to see th insane amount of mental gymnastics to keep the contradictions and absurdities at bay.
peaceplease83 2 years ago 3
Incredibly precise! The video shows the God of Job injustice throughout the Bible.
QueryTruth 2 years ago
Thanks QueryTruth.
holysinecure 2 years ago
YES!!! YOUR BACK!!! Aaaahhhhh (screams like a 13 year old at a Jonas Bros. concert).
PiIota23 2 years ago
LOL Pilota23.
holysinecure 2 years ago
I saw an "ok" video on this topic recently, but it ultimately said god didn't "respect" people. But you captured the subtlety - it's not about whether God respects ALL people - it's about God's impartiality. And let's face it. He's a partial mo-fo. HAHAHAAH.
HeyDuffy459 2 years ago
Long awaited. And WELL worth the wait. Glad y'all are back.
HeyDuffy459 2 years ago
Thank you. I think the remaining videos will be much shorter and won't require multiple videos.
holysinecure 2 years ago
finally... glad to see you are still at it.
Atomsk359 2 years ago
Thanks Atomsk359!
holysinecure 2 years ago
Yippee!!!
AstoundedAtheist 2 years ago
Glad to have you back!
EmpiricalMiracle 2 years ago
Thanks, had to shake off the rust with video production :)
holysinecure 2 years ago
I have found similar errors, inconsistencies and contradictions in the Harry Potter books. Just no nearly so many.
hairyreasoner 2 years ago 2
Finally! Looking forward to seeing you finish the series. Thanks!
Sqeptiqal 2 years ago
HAH! I have been pushing like a slave driver this weekend to finish publishing Part 7. I am glad you like it :)
holysinecure 2 years ago
Wow, this was so powerful....I really don't see how any person who considers himself a believer could watch this dispassionately and be unmoved by the message. When I was associated with a religion, I remember how it was considered such a virtue to ask no questions, and to have *faith* in whatever the changing message of the day was. I remember the scripture about god being the same yesterday today and forever, and my confusion when I read of the crimes god committed and bragged about. 5stars
8journey8 2 years ago 3
Thank you 8journey8. Our entire video series is based in fundamental christianity which holds the Bible to be inerrant and divinely inspired. Starting from that position, this stuff doesn't make sense.
On the other hand, recognizing its human authorship makes it much easier to understand its many flaws.
holysinecure 2 years ago
How else? They will put their fingers in their ears 8journey8. But maybe a bit of actual honesty - or the whiff of honesty - will reach them, and it will set them free ...
farvision 2 years ago 2
I enjoyed this clip and am looking forward to teh second half.
turkagent 2 years ago
The second half should be available now!
holysinecure 2 years ago
nice to have you back! Great vid!
Kantoc 2 years ago
Thanks Kantoc, we are doubling our efforts to publish this series in a more timely fashion!
holysinecure 2 years ago