The Reason for God

[crackcocaineisgood]

religion is made up when you die you die

but i do believe there is more to life than what we know

Some people refer to this as God

[isopycnic]

It's a useful book for helping a non-Christian to understand the perspectives of a thinking Christian, if your only experience has been with people shoving it on you. It's also useful for an atheist who hasn't done much reading on atheism. In no way is it an exhaustive or thorough treatment of Christianity and atheism, but it's marginally more compelling and intelligent than Case for Christ.

[jackt2469]

I just finished this book and I think of it this way - Keller is like a lawyer defending someone who is quite clearly guilty. However, using loopholes and an in depth knowledge of the law, he manages to find ways out and make obvious and clearcut arguments seem not so obvious and clearcut. Its to philosophical most of the time. Ofc you could say that maybe im not grasping his theories well enough. I am able to grasp simple truth however. The one good thing is I dont hate christianity as much.

[zcjxxx]

@jackt2469 what you are trying to say is that you are right and the author is wrong. What I'm saying with respect to all strong believers and of course the main protagonist Timothy Keller, is that Jesus is right. The only person who is right is Jesus, the living Son of God. God pretty sure made that clear. Unfortunately or fortunately, you have to learn more about Jesus and the words of God before coming to a dead end conclusion that God is wrong.

[jackt2469]

@zcjxxx I cant come to a conclusion that God is wrong because I cant come to a conclusion that God exists. If Gods existence was tried in court theres not a shred of evidence to prove he does and it would be laughed out, hence my analogy. And Jesus isnt living, you cant possibly argue that!

[zcjxxx]

@jackt2469 well Jesus did argue that not all would believe in Him, that's okay, btw if God's existence was tried in court, I would say there are evidence, ranging from archeological, scientific, philosophical, historical, and so on and so for, however since God's existence wasn't tried out in court, and not many know who God is, thus His existence was ignored both in court and outside of court.

[zcjxxx]

Respond to this video... Jesus particularly speaks about men with strong faith. What is strong faith, what is it all about? Want to learn more, pick up a Gospel (the bible) and seek guidance from professionals. _They have strong faith after all, if not who else?

[zcjxxx]

@jackt2469 Well Jesus was tried in court, and ppl still denied His existence and His claim that He's divine at that time. And many ppl are still doing this.

[GahdeMalprigi1488x]

wwwdotExposingChristianitydotc­om

[Darusdei]

share your faith...

what actually means, try to shove it down the throats lol...

[MichaAtWork]

Should u give this to a jewish person?

[apex588]

i guess thats fair

[BeeJayEm1]

Every single bad point on here Timothy could own.

[AtheismandSkepticism]

@BeeJayEm1 Why didn't he do that in his book? He calls it "The reason for God" but there are only 16 pages in the book that deal with the evidence for such a claim. Except he doesn't call it 'evidence'. He dodges the standard by calling it "The Clues of God". None of the other chapters matter if there was sufficient evidence of God.

The 16 pages that do matter are just versions of the fine tuning argument and the first cause argument. This book could have been reduced to an article.

[AtheismandSkepticism]

@BeeJayEm1 Cont. The other chapters like "The reality of the resurrection" seem to be versions of Strobel's case for Christ without addressing the criticisms made against Strobel's books

For example, the claim that there were eye-witnesses, doesn't make it true. The claim of eye-witness accounts (from illiterate people that couldn't write down what they saw, mind you) is not enough to determine if such a ridiculous claim ever happened. Saying it is 'historical fact' doesn't make it true either.

[BeeJayEm1]

@AtheismandSkepticism I merely wrote that comment in support of other people who have the same beliefs as I do. I'm sure you're aware that Christianity is, and has always been under attack from different people. My faith has given me strength and has helped me at the worst times of my life. I'm not searching for a debate, I just wanted to share some happiness with people who would agee with my views. I respect your Athiesm and I wouldn't tell you to believe anything otherwise. :)

[AtheismandSkepticism]

@BeeJayEm1

Fair enough. I didn't mean to start a debate you didn't want.

[BozoTheBear]

i read this book with a couple of christian friends a few years ago. it was the awesomeest book ever! since then i've left my christian faith, and now, looking back, i realise how ridiculous this book is (and i was for accepting it, as something that validated what i believed/accepted). even in this short video, keller reveals a total lack of understanding for the atheist/agnostic point of view. he can argue against whatever he wants, and call it atheism/agnosticism, but he misses the point.

[AtheismandSkepticism]

@BozoTheBear Hahah, that is awesome.

I was almost about to facepalm until I read the 3rd sentence.

[Justification75]

So instead of addressing the reasons behind doubting the bible, he just says look at the book positively and how our problems are based on "alternate beliefs." I can already tell this guys book is definitely not worth my time.

[BeeJayEm1]

@Justification75 You're kind of judging the book by its cover. I would have a read, I think it's a wonderful book I feel, by reading it you'll gain a better judgement on your beliefs :)

[csv03]

"when you look at christianity positively, when you look at its teachings, and what it actually asserts, it makes more sense of the life we see around us than anything else." Really? Exodus 21:7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are." How does selling my daughter as a slave help me to make sense of the world?

[therocko101]

@csv03 Exodus= Old Testament = Judaism

The Old Testament is included in the Bible to show where Christianity came from, not necessarily what it's about. When Keller speaks of "Christianity" he's speaking of the message and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth (New Testament). If you have qualms with the Old Testament, it would be more appropriate if you took them up with a Jewish Rabbi.

[sadmachine]

@therocko101 Jesus (a Jewish Rabbi himself) fully endorsed the teachings of what's now known as the Old Testament. If you're a Christian, should you not do the same? Should your call to "be ready always to give an answer" not extend to the entirety of the Bible?

[BeeJayEm1]

@sadmachine We Christians do follow the Old Testament as well as the New one because Jesus stated that he had not come to abolish Judaism but to renew/fulfil it. This faith was known as 'The Way' and later would become known as Christianity.

"The first Christians were all Jews or Jewish proselytes, either by birth or conversion, referred to by historians as the Jewish Christians."

[StephenDeMille]

I bought the book "The Reason for God" and really enjoyed it. Timothy Keller is one of the great Christian apologists of our time, raging against post-modernism and neo-paganism that today are rife in society. I'll buy his other books and I hope many others (like the great Christian writers and other thinkers) are available here in Brazil.

Congratulations to pr. Timothy and may God bless him.

[royroyboxing]

Wow. Lots of writing going on here.. don't forget to workout a little bit, maybe get something nice to eat and catch a movie.

[carolily531]

@ JesusWasAnAsshole. Paul denied Christ too. Persecuted Christians with a vengeance. Yet Paul probably did more to spread Christianity than any of the apostles! I don't thing God is done with you yet!

[JesusWasAnAsshole]

Christians are so nauseating . Your entire philosophical thought process is governed by a 2,000 year old old re-written book of fables and quotes from other people. Why can't any of you think ... and use the brain the evolution gave you ?

[montyapplejuice]

@JesusWasAnAsshole It sounds like your basically saying that the more current something is, the more true it becomes. like if i were to write a philosophical book about the creation and meaning of life this year (2011), and the book had valid points n such, you yourself would follow it? the more current a philosophy is doesnt mean its true. if thats the case: you should stop speaking in English because it is over 2,000 years old and create a new language..with the brain that evolution gave u.

[JesusWasAnAsshole]

@montyapplejuice , Ok, maybe you are right. A few angels came down from heaven and knocked on Lot's door. The angels were looking for 8 righteous people from Sodom and Gomorrah. When neighbors came calling about the strangers, Lot offered his 2 virgin daughters to appease the mob. Infuriated by the actions of the town, god blew up the cities; but, first instructed Lot and his wife to not watch. When Lot's wife looked, she was turned into salt. Sure, lets believe that. Sounds true to me

[montyapplejuice]

@JesusWasAnAsshole yeah, i could understant why you may think its fake n stuff bro. i respect ur opinion! the bible is crazy in the way that it doesnt AT ALL contradict itself and it confirms itself multiple times. like 40-60 differnet authors too (i think around there). but this is how i see it: if evolution is true, then why do we have religion? evolution says that everything in my brain is there because my ancestors needed it to survive. like all the stuff in our brains if there because..

[JesusWasAnAsshole]

@montyapplejuice We have religion because of deep rooted narcissistic needs of man. We want strongly to believe that we are immortal in some way. Think of all the gods that have been dreamed up by man ... from the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Incas, Indians, etc... Every society invents their own gods. It is an anthropological characteristic of humans. Religion is interesting, but belongs in a social studies class. It is also used as a scare tactic , as all of the early bible tells.

[montyapplejuice]

@JesusWasAnAsshole That doesnt answer why it still exists. If religion is actually untrue and really not needed, then it would have died off in the evolving process of humans. Because (according to evolution) everything in my brain is ABSOLUTELY needed for me to survive, and anything that is not needed shouldnt be there in the first place. and u also say that "Every society invents their own gods"..... whats your personal "god"?  i like this dude.. ur makin me think! lol (not sarcasm)

[JesusWasAnAsshole]

@montyapplejuice Actually, some parts of your brain or not needed. Same with your appendix. Biological and social evolution take a very long time. If you think about the gods that used to be admired .. one for water... one for war... one for peace ... one for fertility ... we have come a long way but are still have a social need to believe in something. Many humans are fighting the progress with tooth and nail. But, even so, being said, religion is on the decline. a serious decline.

[montyapplejuice]

@JesusWasAnAsshole I dont understand that...... What parts of our brains are not needed?? and thats actually false, religion may seem like it is on the decline in your general area, but worldwide its on the rise. there are more Christians in Africa, Asia and Europe than there has ever been. so saying its on the decline would not be true. you should really read the book hes talking about in the video, im tryna read it with an un-bias view and its pretty good man!

[JesusWasAnAsshole]

@montyapplejuice , As far as the brain goes.... I was trying to recall something I learned from a while back (much of my brain is slow) . Anyway, the process is called "Synaptic pruning" . It is where unneeded or outdated areas of the brain are recommissioned. There is a theory also that many of our old hunting and survival processes of the brain have faded.

Religious Decline:

religioustolerance [dot] org /chr_prac2.htm

[montyapplejuice]

@JesusWasAnAsshole haha, its all good bro, mines a bit slow sometimes too. i have "brain farts" all the time. its just hard to not believe for me cause ive seen my friends foot literally get healed and ive experienced sooo much crazy love tht i know is not just emotions bein stupid. lol like, behind all the debates n arguments, i dont want to believe that we were just a mess up. i seruously think everyone was made for a purpose. but yeahh

[isaacward2]

@JesusWasAnAsshole

hey i like your name, not because i agree, i think Jesus was the Christ the son of God, but because if you don't believe that you cant call him a good moral teacher because if it isn't true he was lieing all the time. its nice to hear it strait out instead of this garbage about "Jesus was JUST a good person not God"...he cant be both one or the other. Indeed if Jesus was lieing he led a lot of people astray. If he was telling the truth....

[JesusWasAnAsshole]

@isaacward2 Thanks ... I think.

Anyway, I propose that Jesus was an asshole because he didnt do anything until age 30. (dead beat) Then he was turning water into wine for friends and walking on water to amuse tourists. I happen to believe that much greater, noble work can have been performed for the sick, poor and abused. Then this whole thing about taking on the Romans. He was just plain sick with it. Definitely selfish, definitely an asshole.

[isopycnic]

@montyapplejuice actually, all of our physical traits are random, and not all of them are necessary for survival. some of them are a real detriment, in fact, like the fact that we have to breath and eat through the same tube, and it is easy to choke to death or aspirate. all you need for evolution is to survive long enough to reproduce and pass on your genes. if your genes mutate TOO much, then you will not produce viable offpsring, and your genes are thrown out of the gene pool. Cheers :)

[montyapplejuice]

@isopycnic i dont understand what you mean by "our physical traits are random", can you explain that more? like what do you mean? and the reason for us eating and breathing through the same tube is irrelevant to what we are talking about, other than an observation. and i dont think that our genes mutate too much, just gradually over time. very gradually. and, uhh cheers. i liked that show. lol it was a nick at night winner. :)

[montyapplejuice]

@JesusWasAnAsshole ...it is NEEDED for us to survive (according to evolution). so why does religion still exist? If religion is so false and wrong and fake according to you and other atheists, wouldn't it have died off a long time ago? Wouldn't it have been completely cut off by darwinists who would have been the supossed "survival of the fittest"? and you have to understand the whole context of the bible, its really easy to take a small part of the bible n make it sound crazy. lol

[HellsArmy360]

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment,An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.The belief in an all powerful creator that rewards the good and punishes the wicked,is both senile and childish,As there is no goodness in the human heart.But I pity you Christians for keeping your imaginary friend for 2000 years,But sigh it only cost the lives of billions of people eh.Good job I guess.

[reynaldo7496]

@HellsArmy360 no your GAY :]

[sozoid]

I actually found out on history channel that they messed the bible up.. you see when adam and eve ate the fruit..?? The devil was not involved.. it was an actual animal..WE rebelled against God and so did snakes that's why they don't have legs anymore.. the devil is mentioned in the bible but he was never casts away.. THEY ADDED THAT... at a certain ancient time period which was not actually inspired by God.. so heaven and hell and stuff is between us and God(our father)..

[JesusWasAnAsshole]

@sozoid , you should stop doing drugs or stop going to church. ... maybe both.

[ayyawark]

This Book is a reason, my Girlfriend broke up with me, she was tolerating secular view until she read this book!!

We are not living in dark ages, This book leads you to fanaticism!!!

[TheOptimusprime9]

@ayyawark haha

[wachnathan]

How do you explain the errors in the bible if it wasn't for the bible we wouldn't have these problems besides you don't even know who wrote the dam gospels but you let it give athority on our views. Being against christians isn't a belief its the flaws we see that makes us leave it like for example praying doesn't work its just chance like anything else you see thats not belief thats experience with the flaws of christian dogma its flawed and you blame us for it? how arrogant is that.

[pretoshohmoofc]

@Jason29n Why? Is it any more foolish than a talking ape? If a princess kisses a frog, and it turns into a prince, we call that a fairy tale. If the frog takes 40 million years to turn into a prince, you call that evolution. Its laughable

[Jason29n]

Give up your bronze age myths. There are no talking snakes, magical gardens or people living in whales bodies. Its laughable.

People simply adopt the beliefs of their parents. If you were born in India you would be born a Hindu. Its all about where you are born.

Imagine if i said i think Elvis is still alive. You would say well there is no reason or proof to believe such a thing. When i say well i still believe, you would simply laugh at me. Time to wake up folks!

[MrGoodNKinky]

Sayng I hate brutal genocidal dictators that view torture as a punishment is not based on anything but the fact that these things are just plain wrong and evil.

To try & argue that this is not wrong or evil means you think this is how a perfect society would run.

But this very notion flies in the face of everyone that loves the freedoms we enjoy in the USA.

If your ideal place is a dictatorship where you are told how to think, what to do, who to love then you do not love or value Freedom!

[Chriswantsyoutoknow]

Isaiah 1: 18... 'come let us debate says the lord'.

Now, when the best from Atheism debate with the best from Theism... The Theists usually end up looking dumbfounded.

Plus one to Atheism!

(This isn't a serious philosophical argument)

[OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN]

@voteDrRonPaul (and please for the love of Canada don't)......what do you mean by consecutive? I'm consistent in my atheism if that's what you mean

[OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN]

@gallegs7

Well I look around and I see my apartment. Obviously it was put together (LONG ago) by a designer. I look outside and see a tree, grass, a mountain it may look designed but a closer study reveals that it was not. The urge to imagine design is natural to humans because everything we create is designed and hence looking at it form that perspective helps us make sense of things. Sadly nature is not that easy and we have to accept that.

BTW doesn't the bible say Adam came from dust?

[JesusWasAnAsshole]

@OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN , "BTW doesn't the bible say Adam came from dust?"

And Eve came from Adam's rib. Boy, he sure got to hold one over on her for a long time.

[OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN]

@gallegs7 look hard enough and you will find anything, or at least convince yourself that what you've found is the truth. There is but one exception, and that is when you search for truth. TO have truth you must be able to show it, to prove it to others. Following a moral code does not require a god. Of course it is hard, especailly when it is stringent and inflexible. To try an act in contradiction to the realities of life is inevitably harmful.

No evidence is what makes one an atheist.

[gallegs7]

@OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN no, decision to not follow GOd is what causes you to to not believe. You want evidence of a God look around you. Everything was clearly put together by a designer. You really want to say this all came from dust. (the big bang theory). You really want to say no one was behind all of this. it is very clear in the bible why we cannot actually see God with our eyes. But just cause we cant see him does not mean there is not evidence all around.

[reduxinflux]

@Ozzyman200 "Never has anyone provided decent evidence or reasoning for their being a god"

Has anyone even read this book (Reason for God)? It's simply that - reason. NOT proof. And its communicated with the utmost respect.

For a general approach - look up the book on amazon: Antony Flew - There is a God

Both provide 'reasons'. Whether you agree or disagree with that reason is entirely something else...

[reduxinflux]

@KyazuTheInsane The Bible does not say God is male. Genesis says male and female were created in 'our image'. "He" and "Father" are ascribed as functions - initiator, sustainer, provider which is reflected in the created order. When God identifies Himself in the Bible, He has no name. He simply refers to Himself as "I AM" (Yaweh) Past - present - future - independent - all things encompassing. I find this the most profound description of God ever recorded ...

[isopycnic]

@reduxinflux I wondered about why it says "we". Interesting thought about "functions". Thanks for sharing. It's interesting to think about the possibilities. It's difficult to get into the interesting topics, because we all get so caught up in arguing about our insecurities.

[Ozzyman200]

The Theist Challenge

It's been 1000s of years, and 1000s of gods have been invented or believed in. Never has anyone managed to provide decent evidence or reasoning for there being a god. Can anyone? This is the challenge. Do you have the faith to take it up? I certainly don't.

[KyazuTheInsane]

"Join the christian thought collective..it'll all make sense. The burden of proof is on those who DON"T believe that an immortal wizard that can summon bears created the world and guided very specific middle eastern military commanders to victory in battles"

[reduxinflux]

those who don't want to believe...won't. and these same people will continue to put faith in themselves and the convoluted conversations of the world instead of stepping outside of it all and weighing beliefs with equal measure. death will reveal the truth for all. God is not only Love. God is not only Just. He is all things. Revealed in Jesus. There is no more probable explanation. I am drawn to Him. Consequence be damned...

[KyazuTheInsane]

@reduxinflux

If he(for apparently it's proven that he is male in the sense we know it, because apparently we have secret knowledge of the supernatural, and are immune to being deceived by the supernatural) is all things, then is he both good and evil as one?

[99minerkc]

@KyazuTheInsane , The burden of proof is on the one making a claim! 2 Examples: 1) If I said "there is a god that created everything." The burden of proof is on the person claiming there is a god. 2) If a person says, "there is no god!" The burden of proof is on that person, not on the one who says, "I doubt there's a god or I have no reason to believe in a god."

[KyazuTheInsane]

@99minerkc

To be fair, my statements have been utterly dogmatic, largely due to the polarizing effect of videos like this..as well as my philosophical objections to theology.

In case Poe's law is in effect here, my message was a criticism of the burden-shifting tactics people like reduxinflux.

I don't exactly want to be a strong atheist, though. How morbid

[limpnail]

I always like to share my delusions.

[aswtx75]

this was a really good book. it was very fair and balanced and really helped me understand why someone would want to be a christian. i never realized how profound christianity was. if you like reading atheist books at least check this one out to give a fair listen to the other side. well worth the read imo.

[akasaart]

i think any religious system can be quite profound if you take the right lessons from it. if they didn't have something meaningful to offer, they would not have survived so long.

most schools of thought, religious or not, have some valid ideas.

if more people could break free of the need to hold onto an entire belief system, and just take the best of everything, it would be of indescribable benefit to society as a whole

[xfreshXcrispyx]

this book is REALLLLLY good and im an atheist!

[dirtypond13]

Fantastic book by a fantastic preacher.

[CapnnOrdinary]

this guy, in my humble opinion, is the best living preacher.

[shas1814]

It's hard to prove that leprachauns don't exist. It's hard to prove there's no god. But it's easy to prove the Christian God doesn't exist. It is logically impossible that any being can have the following characteristics: 1- all-knowing 2- all-powerful 3- actively involved in human affairs 4- loving in nature. 1 and 2 and 3 are consistent. 1 and 3 and 4 can be consistent. But to see evil and choose not to stop it one cannot be loving. And when we add his eternal torture chamber... Nope.

[timspong]

why do you focus on what obviously offends you? It is very easy to justify a reason for any position (or against any position), however, it is normally built upon spurious presuppositions and we all have a personal bias.

In answer to your post.  There are many "theodicies" that can explain the apparent paradox of evil. However, in reality the bible does not give us an answer to this issue. However, that doesn't mean there isn't one and perhaps we are incapable of comprehending it.

[shas1814]

"why do you focus on what obviously offends you?"

So that others may have the opportunity

to avoid the delusion that I wasted most of my life in.

I think that's a pretty good reason.

[99minerkc]

@shas1814 , I agree!

[kingsbro27]

So you want God to eliminate evil? So you want murders and rapes gone, but you also have to say lying and stealing must be eliminated? What about evil thoughts too? So God must eliminate all those evils but we all would be eliminated also because we think evil thoughts and we lie and steal. So wouldn't God be consistent with being all-powerful and loving in nature? He loves us so He restrains from eliminating us so He keeps evil in the world.

[kingsbro27]

thats not a Christianity cliche. That's a Gandhi cliche. God doesn't hate the sin but love the sinner. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that.

God will not eliminate rape, murder, and war because He must eliminate all humans to do so because we rape, we murder, and we make war. You cannot separate us and the evil. we are evil. He must eliminate us to get rid of evil.

[shas1814]

"Nowhere in Scripture does it say that." Take time to read what people are saying. I never said it was from scripture, I said it is a christian cliche. And that's true, I have heard it hundreds of times from the pulpit and from christians. Repeating your assertions does not strengthen them. Your Bible indicates that your god will defeat evil, Jesus said he came fir that purpose. 2,000 years later I see no improvement in human nature. Time to retire the myth and move on to reality.

[kingsbro27]

It is not Christianity though. It is a cliche that some Christians have stolen from Gandhi to try not to offend people. Some say God doesn't punish sin. Does that make that true Christianity? No. It is just a false teaching by a Christian imposing their own beliefs on the Bible. The God of the Bible does not hate sin but love the sinner.

The Bible says that Jesus came to overcome evil which He did being raised from the dead. He will defeat evil in His second coming not His first.

[shas1814]

"The Bible says that Jesus came to overcome evil"

It also says that some who listened to Jesus teach

would not die before his kingdom was established.

Those people would be 2,000 years old now,

and still no kingdom.

So much for promises.

[kingsbro27]

Jesus' kingdom has been established. His kingdom is not a physical Earthly kingdom. It is a spiritual Heavenly kingdom. All those that enter are born again (John 3:3,6).

[shas1814]

Right.

And those who have been born again can not sin.

Which is a distinct contrast

to the reality we see around us every day.

[kingsbro27]

Whoa, where does it ever say that those who are born again cannot sin? Those who are born again will be able to not sin and be able to do good but never to be sinless.

[shas1814]

"Whoa, where does it ever say that those who are born again cannot sin?" Thanks for asking. Gotta read that book, youngster! "whosoever sinneth, hath not seen him, nor known him. .. LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU. He that commmitteth sin is of the devil. Whosoever is born of God, COMMITTETH NOT SIN: for his seed abideth in him, and he CAN NOT SIN, because he is born of God." 1 John 3

[kingsbro27]

It also says in 1 John 1

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

that is a better translation of 1 John 3

[kingsbro27]

That is interesting because what is the opposite statement? I just showed you what 1 John 3 actually means so obviously it is not an actual opposite statement and fits perfectly together. I think you just want to try to disprove the Bible at any cost so you can avoid confrontation with the one true God.

[shas1814]

"I just showed you what 1 John 3 actually means"

No, John does that all by himself,

and he states clearly that

"Whosoever is born of God,

COMMITTETH NOT SIN:

for his seed abideth in him,

and he CAN NOT SIN,

because he is born of God."

1 John 3"

You're that man trying to deceive.

[kingsbro27]

I am trying to deceive you by showing you a different translation that helps you understand what the author is saying in this verse?

[shas1814]

"LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU.

He that commmitteth sin is of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God,

COMMITTETH NOT SIN:

for his seed abideth in him,

and he CAN NOT SIN,

because he is born of God."

1 John 3

[1234989ful]

@shas1814 What is one of the contradictions in the Bible? The Bible is a narrative and when taken out of context, can be misconstrued, like any other narrative. You pick up a Harry Potter book and the first line you read is 'Harry looked at Hermione', you can misconstrue that to mean that Harry longs for Hermione, you can proof text it in any way. The Bible is not unclear. Critics of the Bible HAVE to read the whole thing, but virtually no one takes the time to.

[shas1814]

@1234989ful

Your assumptions about me are incorrect.

I am a retired pastor,

and graduated from an accredited four-year Bible college

before your parents were born.

Everyone who knows the Bible

is aware of many, many errors and contradictions.

I'n not going to debate it here.

If the truth is important to you, the data is freely available.

Just read the book.

[1234989ful]

@shas1814 Were you by any chance in a documentary made by Tony Jones?

[l33tpwnzord]

@shas1814

The "errors and contradictions" in the bible are tiny and inconsequential. Someone who had studied the bible at any length would know this.

[shas1814]

@l33tpwnzord

I'm not going to debate it here.

If the truth is important to you, the data is freely available.

Just read the book.

[l33tpwnzord]

@shas1814

Yea you won't debate it here because you would get schooled.

[tofer4466]

@l33tpwnzord

whats there to debate? why debate something you cant prove? I personally believe that Christianity is true you don't. your opinion is your opinion and vice versa. we agree to disagree. i prefer to show to what i believe in the way i live. you prefer to debate something that's insubstantial and requires someone to place trust in it without being able to see it. you cant really debate something that requires a person to prove something they cant prove. its kinda pointless.

[cephaslcl]

COMMITTETH NOT SIN:

Just so you know when you read the King James version and see words that end with eth it means to practice whatever it is before the eth. So a modern translation would reflect how it is to be read. The bible teaches us we are to love God with all our heart, soul and mind. Do you do this perfectly everyday? Any time we fail to do that it is sin.

[shas1814]

"-Eth" is the archaic form of "s". Period. "Commiteth" means "commits." Those who are born of god do not sin. That's what it says. Do you do this? No, I don't love your god because he's a myth. And if he were real, he would be a sadistic tyrant. "Sin" is whatever makes your mythical god grumpy. As your god is as real as Thor, I don't worry too much about his preferences.

[cephaslcl]

(As your god is as real as Thor,

I don't worry too much about his preferences. ) This statement is not something to take lightly because your life hangs in the balance. If you would like to enter into a debate on this I would be willing if you will be honest with the result for your soul sake. I realize I can't make a blind man see but if you want truth it is available. If you want a reason to continue in your sin no one is stopping you. You must not have peace about what you believe.

[99minerkc]

@shas1814 , "The bible teaches us we are to love God with all our heart, soul and mind. Do you do this perfectly everyday? Any time we fail to do that it is sin."

"You are OUT OF YOUR MIND if you think it's sinning if one doesn't "love god with all of his heart every day!!!!"

[Creationcreed]

@99minerkcOut of their mind that not loving God is a sin? says who?

[99minerkc]

@99minerkc , Sin is "something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong." You're saying that if a person isn't loving god "perfectly"(your choice of words not mine) every day they're sinning! First, nobody can do anything perfectly! Second, say a person is feeling sick and the last thing they want to do is to love anyone or anything on a given day, by your words they're sinning! Your comment simply fails!

[shas1814]

@99minerkc "if you think it's sinning"

Not me.

I don't believe in sin at all.

I'm just reporting what the Bronze Age scriptures say.

[cephaslcl]

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Here you have the writer making the statement that if (we) confess (our) sins including himself in this statement. So you need to understand what the writer meant by what he said not how you what to understand the scripture over 1500 years later. Why do you hate God?

[shas1814]

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Compare with:

"...he CAN NOT SIN,

because he is born of God."

1 John 3

There you have it-

for every statement in the Bible

there is an equal and opposite statement.

That's why one book has created over 40,000 official denominations.

Truth doesn't do that.

[Gracebyfaith16]

you also have to cross reference in the Bible. Compare that to Paul's struggle with sin in Romans 7. he says that it is no longer he (paul) who sins, but rather sin living in him. the Christian as God sees him is perfect and justified because of faith; we are a new creation in Christ. but to say we are perfect and do not have sin in us is to deceive ourselves. does that make sense at all?

[shas1814]

As you point out,

there are many contradictory statements in this book.

Kinda like Colorado weather:

if you don't like what you've got,

just wait a bit and it'll change.

[smog7188]

I don't know if that's exactly true.

But I think it would be more helpful if we analyze the passage as a whole. This Book is a letter to us so that we wnt sin. In this particular paragraph, tells us to "not lead anyone lead you astray". So he doesn't want us to break the rules. To reaffirm this, he writes the verse you are referring to. Some people (including myself) see this as a powerful metaphor. He wants to be a strong as possible to send a clear message to us that we must be pure. Obviously

[shas1814]

"He wants to be a strong as possible to send a clear message to us... Obviously"

Not obvious at all.

The scripture says repeatedly that God speaks cryptically

"so that hearing, they will not understand."

Jesus spoke in parables

so that his hearers would miss the message.

God sent lying spirits in the mouths of prophets

to deceive the hearer.

Life is NOT found in the scripture (so the Bible says).

And Paul says that there is no sin until the Law comes.

[smog7188]

In this passage Jesus was not speaking. God was not speaking. This was merely John. Essentially the letter's purpose was to preach to the people. One could say this was like a sermon. I've never had my Pastor try to preach in riddles just because Jesus and God did. Jesus sometimes spoke in parables. However, I don't think John 3:16 had much to decipher.

[smog7188]

Where are you getting God sent lying spirits in the mouths of prophets? Is this from First Kings? If so, this is irrelevant to John. God knowingly sent a demon to Ahab's prophets bc Ahab was wicked and would not listen to Jehovah. With Jesus' parables, he only did this to weave out the true believers. Not the smart people, but the people spiritually conditioned to understand God's will. With "so that hearing, they will not understand", please tell me the passage you are getting this from.

[smog7188]

and please tell me where the "life is not found in the scripture" and "Paul says that there is no sin until the law comes". You might be right, but I would like to read it for myself and maybe we just have different views.

[shas1814]

"God knowingly sent a demon to Ahab's prophets bc Ahab was wicked and would not listen to Jehovah."

No, Ahab DID want to hear from God,

and it does not say that it was a "demon."

Jesus said nothing about "true believers"

(Matthew 13:10 - 17)

[smog7188]

You're right, it says a lying spirit. Honest mistake.

But in that verse, it states "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all of HIS prophets." This changes things entirely. In this passage God sent liars to Ahab's Prophets during the battle only. John is not one of Ahab's prophets. Whether Ahab was wicked or wanted God is another issue.

[smog7188]

Btw, I didn't spam your last reply. I think whoever did that is dumb. We're just having a conversation. I hope you see me as being civil or I just like talking about this! But anyway, when you cite Matthew 13:10-17, that's completely proving my point. Jesus replies, "the knowledge... has been given to you (us the believers!). Whoever has (us) will be given more..." Then he goes saying how the non-believers do not understand, hence the whole "callous hearts, close eyes, can't hear".

[smog7188]

In John 5:37-39 he is talking to the Jews who are accusing him of working on Sabbath. To those men the Word does not dwell in THEM. Etc.

I don't know where you are getting Romans. My Bible says this, "...for where there is no law there are no transgressions." Here Paul is talking to the pharisees. That sentence I think you are referring to is more like a side point made by Paul, it wasn't really a point more than an example.

[smog7188]

Also, can you just give me the verse where it says that Ahab wants God? I don't think whether I'm right or wrong doesn't really matter to me. I'm curious...

[shas1814]

Yes, this is Murphy's Law of Scripture:

For every statement in the Bible

there is an equal and opposite statement.

That's why, in spite of Jesus' prayer

that his followers be one,

there are 40,000 official denominations.

BTW, don't make statements in ignorance.

I do not hate mythical characters.

[99minerkc]

@kingsbro27 , Where does this spiritual heavenly kingdom reside? Somewhere in space?

[99minerkc]

@kingsbro27 , If your god is ALL POWERFUL, ALL LOVING, why can't your god eliminate all evil? What's so bad about getting rid of ALL evil? Would it destroy us? NO, not if as you christians claim is true, "we're made in GOD'S image!" Eliminating all evil is a better alternative than FORCING people(via fear of penalty of eternal torture) to convert to your faith! That method(christianity)is in it's inner core evil!

[shas1814]

@99minerkc Agreed.

If he CAN not eliminate evil (as he promised to do)

then he's not much of a god.

If he WILL not eliminate evil,

then he's a sadistic tyrant.

"I also will laugh at your calamity;

I will mock when your fear cometh" Says YHVH

Proverbs 1:26

[99minerkc]

@shas1814 , "I also will laugh at your calamity;

I will mock when your fear cometh" Says YHVH

Proverbs 1:26 15 minutes ago"

Yeah, I find it funny that an "all powerful, all loving" god would even have a thought such as mocking? It's actually(at least to me)just anther statement that the bible is man made and has nothing to do with a god. A god needing to mock a human is just laughable!

[99minerkc]

Anyway, I have ranted enough lol!

Peace and be well!

[gallegs7]

@99minerkc He is mocking the human because the human speeks evil and false things. A good God does mock and hate evil things. If he loved evil things he would be evil himself. Think about it.

[99minerkc]

@gallegs7 You justify that i's perfectly fine for a god to mock! What next, that it's ok to murder? Oh wait, it's already been done, just read the OT of the bible!! UNBELIEVABLE!

[unboxified]

You must remember that His nature is much more than *just* "loving." he has many attributes. Also, I am a loving father, but I still allow my children to suffer for reasons that they can not always understand. Would it not be foolish if they disowned me simply because they did not always understand my actions, or see the big picture?

[unboxified]

woops. I am on my daughters log-in - so I hope people are not confused by my last comment. unboxified is not a father, but her dad is.

[shas1814]

"Would it not be foolish if they disowned me simply because they did not always understand my actions, or see the big picture?"

And yet this "Father" swears to disown his children

for failing to understand and see the big picture.

There's a huge inequity here

that the church works very hard to ignore...

[ggazoo]

OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN: "I'm a content and happy atheist..."

Then why do you spend time listening to Christians? I think it's because you're looking for God and don't even know it.

[OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN]

Well actually being an atheist (and a soc major) I'm constantly confronted with christians trying to convert me, it's better that I know their arguments so I can provide a proper reply. Not to mention I'm considering doing a paper during my major on the social structures of religious practice and how they reinforce belief.

[a5dr3]

Keller is great, but if you want to play with the big boys go to the Greg Bahnsen page.

[OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN]

just stay outa my classroom.

[OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN]

if there so content why do they need so many others to agree with them? Why do they get angry when someone tells them that their arguments don't work rationally? Why does it seem that what they're really seeking is validation?

[amadov8]

I respect what you are saying OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN but...logically the next question to ask you would be...are you seeking validation by writing 4 posts to this video? Are you seeking people to agree with you by writing 4 posts to this video? I'm not trying to change your mind...I'm just throwing out what is a logical response to you expressing your beliefs toward Christian beliefs.

[OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN]

No It's just that it took four thoughts to get my thought out, I admit concision isn't one of my strong suits.

[oworm]

Interesting that your conclusion is that Christians are seeking validation. The christian gospel's message isn't a message of validation,its a message of reconciliation! Anyone looking for validation can find hope in a therapist who will tell them what they want to hear. The gospel is a message that we generally don't want to hear because it tells us that we are alienated from God by virtue of our moral depravity. There is nothing particularly validating about that message.

[OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN]

I don't actually exist because I have to feel empty according to these christians and I find it really funny, when they push me they always seem to be the ones that eventually get angry and bitter and say that I just won't accept reason or that I don't accept christianity because I don't agree with what they say when they "witness to me" but when I explain my views to others and they don't agree with me all I say is "okey doke believe what you will just stay outa my class room" If their so

[OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN]

"apply the same criticism to your beliefs that you demand christians apply to theirs" Funny I tell christians to do this all the time and have compared my views and those of these christians (one of which recommended this book) and what I've found is that when you start digging into the reasons for atheism you get evidence based on reality, when you start digging into the reasons for christianity you get people telling you that you aren't happy. I'm a content and happy atheist and apparently

[gallegs7]

@OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN Im sure you are happy being an atheist. The bible says you will be happy with your time on earth. I do no doubt you for a second. But that does not mean it will last. See i have never found any evidence based on reality when it comes to looking at atheism. I have heard all the arguments as well from very smart people (dawkins, Hitchens, Mahr) yet nothing and i mean nothing is proven. Nothing!

[gallegs7]

@OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN and im sure you will say the same about christians because i believe that untill you cross over and trust in the Lord he will blind you. Maybe i am wrong and he will open your eyes before then. But let me tell you there is no way i would give my whole life to a false God. Therefore dont believe when ppl say christians just believe because we are scared that there is no God to help us through the tough times>

[gallegs7]

@OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN yes since i have come to christ let me tell you how difficult it has been. Living a life that is good in a very evil world. It is hard. So do not think that ppl have just made up some God to help their own insecurities. No the God of the bible would not be the way he is if he was just made up. Everybody would be getting into heaven if that was the case.

[gallegs7]

@OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN You say you want reality you really start to dig down and figure it out. If you truly seek the Lord with all your heart YOU WILL FIND HIM AND YOU WILL FIND OUT EVERYTHING YOU THOUGHT WAS REALITY IS NOTHING BUT A FALSE LIE!

[VoteDrRonPaul]

@OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN

"I'm a content and happy atheist..."

I do not doubt that you are happy, but I DO doubt that you are consecutive. I suppose you know some philosophy. Here are some atheists that were consecutive: Jean-Paul Sartre, Theodorus the Atheist and Hegesias of Cyrene (I´m not sure if the last was an atheist but I put his there just so that my point should be more obvious). I hope you get the point. ;-)

[VoteDrRonPaul]

@OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN

@OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN

"I'm a content and happy atheist..."

I do not doubt that you are happy, but I DO doubt that you are consecutive. I suppose you know some philosophy. Here are some atheists that were consecutive: Jean-Paul Sartre, Theodorus the Atheist and Hegesias of Cyrene (I´m not sure if the last was an atheist but I put his there just so that my point should be more obvious). I hope you get the point. ;-)