Schwarzenegger's Blockbuster Budget Cuts Terminate the Safety Net

[mg5679]

How do they intend to pay for these programs?

[truthadvocate]

So what you're saying is stealing is okie dokie as long as you try to help the less fortunate? What if your programs only make problems worse? What if stealing ends up hurting the less fortunate? What gives you the right to steal in the first place? Welfare funded by the initiation of coercion lowers the standard of living for everyone. If you are open minded, visit Mises dot org. Learn how to effectively help those in need. The initiation of force doesn't work and neither does welfare.

[flipgood89]

@truthadvocate ....but serving the rich and stuffing their coffers have made this a prosperous nation?

[truthadvocate]

@flipgood89,

This nation is an uncivilized statist system in which the people are fooled into believing that government represents them, while it serves rich special interest groups and rich politicians, while stealing from productive individuals and trapping others in a life of dependency. I don't support this system. I support voluntaryism, peace, the non-aggression principle and respect for human beings, which includes a respect for the property they legitimately acquire or produce.

[flipgood89]

@truthadvocate ...hmm. A bundle of contradictions here. Let me attempt to untangle. So you view welfare as stealing from productive individuals? If I am off base, please clarify.

[truthadvocate]

@flipgood89,

Taxation is stealing. Forcing people to use a single fiat currency and then expanding the supply of that currency is also stealing. Borrowing money and then forcing that debt onto future generations of tax payers is also stealing.

The government steals from everyone, productive and unproductive.

Welfare is just one of the things politicians like to do with the wealth they have stolen in order to "divide & conquer" large groups of voters. It's also a concept used to "justify" theft

[flipgood89]

@truthadvocate ...hmmm. So how do we pay for the infrastructure and the vital social services of America? How do you ensure that the country wont collapse into chaos? Are you advocating socialism, or a corporatized nation, completely governed by CEOs and the like?

[truthadvocate]

@flipgood89,

"how do we pay for the infrastructure & vital social services of America?" I'd prefer to pay for what I need & want with a medium of exchange of my choice through voluntary trade. You can do what you want as long as you don't hurt me.

"How do you ensure that the country wont collapse into chaos" Those who are dependent on theft for their income will be upset. But like all humans they have the ability to adapt.

"Are you advocating socialism, or a corporatized nation?" No.

[flipgood89]

@truthadvocate ...I got you now. You're not interested in a civilized society, and the apparatus that supports the functionality of this country. Dont know what to tell you. I will say this, your narcissism and selfishness cuts both ways. If humans are left out in the cold and unable to subsist or have access to basic necessities like food or water, they will "adapt" as you say. As u strut around like a peacock, they will PHYSICALLY beat and rob you in order to survive. Perhaps even kill u.

[truthadvocate]

@flipgood89,

So because I oppose stealing, I'm uncivilized?

I support charitable voluntary giving. I give to charity on a monthly basis & have donated years of my time to worthy causes. I'm a caring son, husband, father & friend. You don't know me well enough to call me narcissistic or selfish.

"they'll PHYSICALLY beat & rob you" Personal & home defense is just another need I'm willing to pay for.

I'm sure "they" will be no more violent than the state.

What apparatus are you referring to?

[flipgood89]

@truthadvocate ...You are completely fluent in the narcissist language. Me, I, Me, I.....Your worldview doesnt extend beyond your mirror and material value. You equate maintaining a functioning society with "stealing". So I guess because I have a big gun and a big water hose, police and firefighters should be eliminated. Right? I commend you on your charity, but a few people volunteering for a soup kitchen is not the same as erecting a social system to keep families from becoming destitute.

[truthadvocate]

@flipgood89,

I use 1st person pronouns because:

1. Fact: I can most reliably & accurately describe my own thoughts, not the thoughts of others.

2. Singular pronouns allow complex ideas to be communicated easily.

3. I am defending myself against your ad hominem attacks.

Most police do not serve & protect the people. Firefighters do provide a service I would pay for. This society is not "functioning" as well as it could be. It could more effectively help the poor. Are you apposed to improvements?

[flipgood89]

@truthadvocate ...this has developed into two different convos....now if we are to talk about inequities of America, and how to fix them ---- YES! In the past 30 yrs. worker to CEO earnings went from 30 to 1 ratio, to about 400 to 1 in the span of about 30 yrs. Deregulation and tax manipulations have been devastating. Unjust wars. ext. But to lay problems on the poor and say that taxes that help them are stealing, and that services should be abolished allowing them to "adjust"...well, b.s

[truthadvocate]

@flipgood89,

The fact that people earn different amounts of money is not the problem. My life doesn't get worse if my neighbor makes more money. The problem is that there is a group of people that are given the legal right to commit aggression against others. Those with lots of money can pay this group of people to commit aggression. That's the problem. This group is the government.

Stealing is stealing no matter how you use the money. Is it ok to murder if you use the meat to feed the hungry?

[flipgood89]

@truthadvocate Murder? Huh? Thats a very common thought process/reflexive debating tactic among objectivists: If you support X, then you support X (taken to its most insane fantasy extreme).... The growth of income inequality may not be of concern to you, but its always spelled economic instability, when the wealthy exploit the working class and hoard the wealth. Money isnt being exchanged. Society becomes too top heavy. Who has any money to buy another. U.S is n oligarchy

[truthadvocate]

@flipgood89,

You claim in essence that theft is not theft if the money stolen is used to help the poor. I simply demonstrated the perverse nature of this argument by applying it to another crime. I wasn't assuming you would support murder. I was betting you would be more civilized than that, which you obviously are.

It's ironic that you started this debate by accusing ME of contradictions.

If you want others to take your world view seriously, you need to use consistent logic.

[flipgood89]

@truthadvocate ....where are you getting this idea that taxation is theft? Taxation has been established as a bedrock of our nation to improve our infrastructures, provide social services, and maintain a social safety net. If you want to change the laws that govern, or move, thats your issue. Theft denotes that a crime has been a committed --- taxation is an agreed upon principle of this country, and whether you see it or not, benefits you greatly.

[truthadvocate]

@flipgood89,

Taxation was established over 5000 years ago as a way for rulers to take wealth from those they conquer.

I define theft as taking wealth from others in an involuntary way. Murder as killing someone without their consent. A fair system of law would treat all people equally. But U.S. law does not.

Some who drop bombs on innocent civilians are considered heroes, while others are considered terrorists. Some who steal are considered public servants while others are considered criminals

[flipgood89]

@truthadvocate ....ur entitled to your opinions.

[VentrueCapital]

You're right! "When the body builder/action hero who calls himself “The Governator” suggested, maybe, civil servants might take a bit of a pay cut, they ran over to his house and terrorized his family until he changed his mind. Then the state went bankrupt."

[iknewitalready]

Terminator gone Eliminator!