Recovery | You really don't care that there may be altenatives to recovery

[bluebirdofrock]

Isegoria you ROCK! 

[eddieclaire1]

you are a prime example of what not to be an asshole, denial is obvious in just the way you are completely negative. It is all suggestion you don't have to do any of it

Eddie

[isegoria1]

@eddieclaire1 Thanks for sharing your shitty version of "spirituality". Thanks again for the adhom. It shows you have nothing left but to call me names.

[savanah626]

our thinking defects cause us to want to get out of ourselves through many types of additive behavior drugs,drink,gamble,sex,ect we will be enslaved to something so why not maker it god if life gets better.

[beautifulmind546]

@savanah626 so you are content to be a slave. You admit to being a slave. Why is it so damned hard for you to get that you can have complete freedom and all that you have to do is be personally responsible? Are you really that weak and lazy that you will be a willing slave of a cult rather than step up face and own your life?

[savanah626]

sitting in our own reality without god will end in guilt and drinking or using again I had to give up on my own solutions or die.

[isegoria1]

@savanah626 You really are full shit aren't you? I have reality which is why I don't have an imaginary friend. You should try it. Anything but own responsibility for your deliberate actions. Bunch of cowards. You are blocked because I have about as much time for deliberate liars as I do self deprecating behavior today. Tell yourself what ever lies you need to so you can sleep at night.

[savanah626]

that's an excellent question there is a god shaped void in all of us no matter what we chase in the world to fill it ends in disappointment if we focus on our god first and live according to spiritual principals things get better and better. Self will and my ideas got me a seat in aa.

[isegoria1]

@savanah626 No god shaped hole here. LOL No imaginary friends for thanks. I'd rather not have to lie and excuse my way through life. Now your recovery as it were is a matter of choice and will? I thought you were powerless? The longer I debate with you people to more I realize that there is no lie you will not tell to excuse your deliberate behavior on something other than yourself.

[savanah626]

you just mixed and stuck on the desease thing and if I misunderstood the aa program in the you do I would agree cause even that dr.drew on celeb rehab calls it desease the aa I know does exact nature work and it comes down to alcoholics don't like them selves hence needing a god that loves them.

[isegoria1]

@savanah626 I have mixed up nothing, but nice lame excuse. I suppose 10 years of sanctioned self destructive aa behavior taught me nothing. Yours is nothing more than yet another spin and on lie with special qualifiers. Why is it so fucking hard to be honest and take responsibility for shit you did deliberately?

[savanah626]

you would have an excellent point if y

[isegoria1]

@savanah626 You will do everything top keep from taking responsibility. Thanks for the belly laugh. Anything including posting a comment and then removing it. You are the typical AA culter coward. "our thinking defects cause us to want to get out of ourselves through many types of additive behavior drugs,drink,gamble,sex,ect we will be enslaved to something so why not maker it god if life gets better. " Now your group is anti thought too? Enslaved with something your do deliberately. LOLLOLOL

[savanah626]

I dont know who your arguing with there is nothing in the big book of aa that says its a disease, that's an early tool till the steps are worked to find out underlying issues and in many cases its because we dont like ourselves. the spiritual part of the program is to help with self acceptance instead of self loathing.

[isegoria1]

@savanah626 No they say it is a defect, anything but an act of deliberation. You may say that they "start" people on this bullshit disease lie but I have seen it first from people with better than 20 years in your cult. It is not until we do the steps that we finally understand first hand what it is to hate ourselves and be willing to beat ourselves with witnesses. Lame excuse for your cult and so full of fail I have to have my doubts as to if your attend.

[8Adramelech8]

Once again, thanks for the videos. I really appreciate them. I find them both validating and informative:

[ricgomez1]

It's classified as a disease because we lack the ability to make proper choices, and have damage the very part of the brain that helps us to make these desisions which is located in the reward center of the brain, it takes time and effort to relearn how to make better choices and that depends on the extent of the damage is, hence its a disease of choice.

[isegoria1]

@ricgomez1 It is not classified as a disease NEVER was. Stop making excuses for deliberate actions.

[9436oelable]

you do have a point and I am becoming a drug counselor and AA and NA did nothing to help me get sober... the withdrawal part of it is all that needs any real intervention...

[IGOROZKARSKY]

HERE IS A GOOD ONE FOR YOU TO PONDER ON:

SELF-PITY IS A "GENETIC DISEASE" !

NOBE IT ISN´T.

IT´S A DECISION !

IT´S A STATE OF MIND !

[boldbhoy67]

Quite good my man. But you seemed to really rile a lot of hornets/extremists,(The 'opened minded ones!') LOL!! I'm 17 years sober now. Much happier since escaping from AA.

It's getting worse as it gets bigger I'm afraid... more parrots, cliches, gurus.... who fuckin needs these loonies, unbelievable really! Where else on the planet could you possibly find anyone else to take these sad fuckers seriously?????????? Get a life!

[jacotango]

i don't like AA or NA at all. It's crap. But you are so aggro, it's like your pissed off your head. Just settle don't and explain RR calmly for fucks sake. And your point about the the medical and sceintific comumity not accepting addiction as a genetic problem is just plain wrong man. take it easy.

[isegoria1]

@jacotango Glad to be happy today - I would invite you to show us all one scientific peer reviewed paper that backs your assertion of it being genetic. Please show us even one. Have a nice day

[beatpicks]

thanks man, i needed this! I like when people have there head on straight, it's obvious.

[backwoodsninja]

Is Rational Recovery really about recovery from addiction? Every video that I've seen makes it look like it's just a crusade against AA. If you don't like AA, then don't go. No one has ever stopped me from leaving an AA group.

[isegoria1]

@backwoodsninja You are funny, AA is overtly religious; yet people are sentenced by the courts to attend this unconstitutional religious cult. Feel free to excuse that one any way you like. I do wonder what our responses are supposed to be in a flurry of death threats, slander campaigns, and the such.

[backwoodsninja]

@isegoria1 Always glad I can entertain. Anyway, I'm not a fan of courts sentencing people to AA. Although, the people I've met have told me that they were given options. And when a person is convicted of a crime, I'd say they got off pretty light if they get sentenced to sit through a few AA meetings. You mention death threats but produce no evidence. You mention slander campaigns but you're the one I see talking the most slander.

[isegoria1]

@backwoodsninja As for the death threats and slander campaigns you have missed the whole thing. Not my fault you are so late in the game. Did you bother to look at the date on the video?

[backwoodsninja]

@isegoria1 Haha. So let me get this straight. AA threatened you. You got a letter from the GSO threatening you. Because that's the only way you could get "threatened by AA." And I highly doubt that is what happened. I'm guessing you had some trolls talking smack to you over the internet. It happens, man. Honestly, whatever keeps you sober, I'm happy for you, man. I just don't think I could carry around the anger that you seem to radiate.

[isegoria1]

Did I ever even once say AAWSO? You don't pay attention so well do you. As for the rest of your comment nice duck and scab pick but fail.

Thanks for playing.

[backwoodsninja]

@isegoria1 You mentioned death threats from AA. I was asking for specifics. By specifics, I mean actual evidence, not just you talking about it. Did you file a police report? Usually a death threat is a pretty serious thing.

And we do agree on one thing. This conversation is quickly becoming uninteresting. Once again, if making videos bashing AA helps you stay sober, bash away, friend, bash away. God bless you.

[isegoria1]

@backwoodsninja Yes I actually have 4 death threats reports filed with my local police department. It is simply amazing how hateful your cult members can be.

God bless me? What a lame exit, why don't you just say fuck you like you really mean. I have to ask which magical mysterious space chicken are you blessing me from.

[backwoodsninja]

@isegoria1 Okay, since you asked, I believe in Jesus Christ. I can't speak on behalf of the people who have threatened you, but the actions of four people do not convince me that AA is bad as an organization. I have never been told, nor do I believe that AA is the only way to stay sober. It's simply the way that has worked for me. It just struck me as odd that practically every RR vid I've seen on the net is primarily devoted to ripping AA.

[isegoria1]

@backwoodsninja So you believe in things you can not prove whatsoever? WTF am I even bothering with you for? Never been told AA is the only way? Bullshit. "The ends are always the same, jails, institutions, and death"

So questioning unfounded claims is ripping on? Whatever, you people need thicker skin if your are going to troll the internet looking for fights with people who disagree with your religious cult. Go back to your little circle of responsibility duckers.

[zorel7100]

@backwoodsninja AA is Abrahamic faith filth. Dry Drunk? - Dont speak in Christian algebra. Say what You mean - say our way or else. Pick a golden road but what do newcomers learn? - Terminally unique etc.? Make new AA Torquemadas. I need a bad case of jitters from 1 Guru I met. So I should die or kill kids in drunk driving or whatever cause I work 8 Fold Path as Buddhist. Incidentally the most successful way to sober up. Go home and watch Jihad - root favorite team - insanity as solution again!

[backwoodsninja]

@zorel7100 I'm sorry, but are you actually responding to something I said or is this just a random rant? I could barely make sense out of your comment.

[SuperWeather123]

the disease is actually a dis ease of the spirit. The desire of alcohol that lead to addiction is a low grade spiritual thrust. But of course the sense of wholeness the person seeks out will not last so more drink is necessary. Now sober spiritual thrust is still there. This is where the 12 steps are handy. It just to bad it says "character defects" that's just not true. There are more concepts that the general AA misinterprets as you know.

[SuperWeather123]

Disease, I believe, means Dis ease of the spirit. It is a issue with the spirit of a person. Be real, take personal inventory, right wrongs, live to be a more spiritual person and you will be healed

[isegoria1]

@SuperWeather123 'dis-ease' is a piss poor excuse for the painfully obvious. Anything but own the reality of it all.

[buddyshroom]

Still not a Fact!

[isegoria1]

@buddyshroom Moving the goal post? Nice and dishonest. Should I ever want to be a bald faced liar I know where to find your cult.

[buddyshroom]

How can anyone thats in a Anonymous program get any hard facts about what % Recover? I have heard the 5% rummer also, it is not Fact. Why yes I did actually watch your video.

[isegoria1]

@buddyshroom You really should read AA's own triennial survey. They are willing to admit abysmal failure but the culties refuse to.

Cognitive Dissonace

[buddyshroom]

What are you getting at? You just talk about how you don't get AA? It works for some if they want it to. Just let your hate go. The never said they had all the answers. I think I would rather be happy!

[isegoria1]

@buddyshroom If you don't know what I am getting at them maybe you should take the time to actually watch the video.

AA "works" for less than 5% of people. AA "works" the same way voodoo sacrifices and incantations so. It is a placebo and nothing more. I would rather be thinking for myself than an endless program praise repeating drone.

[flightdoc35]

I. AA brought me out the hell of my alcoholism and for that I am forever grateful. AA does not work for everyone, as a matter of fact, there are a lot who do not recover with this program. I would, however, like to correct you on a few facts that I believe you have slightly distorted. I have never been told to Duck person responsibility for my actions. Quite the contrary actually. I just don't know why you have to be so ugly about your opinions. I will pray for you

[isegoria1]

AA does not work any better than a placebo, even AA admits this. The rest of your comment is little more than indoctrinated response.

Consider thinking for yourself.

[flightdoc35]

but if it works, weather or not, a placebo..and there are those who do recover, why then, in your opion, is it so bad?

[isegoria1]

Point you missed is that it does not work

[mskydolphin]

When you say "disease", are you refering to what the '90 day' wonders say, or to what is actually written in AA?

AA writes it is an illness, a fatal malady.

They say, "It is a way that works for us."

Some people are ordered by the courts to attend AA. Are you one of those? I see your pain and I feel for you.

I hope you find a solution to your problems.

Namaste

[isegoria1]

I have no pain

[mskydolphin]

I have no pain, is Not an answer. Nor is it a truth. What is your solution to overcoming alcoholism? How many peoples lives are you able to enrich with your method? Are you giving still suffering alcoholics hope? Mister isegoria1, tear down this wall. Where in the AA big book does it call alcoholism a disease? Have you studdied the 12x12 at all? PS. see my prior post Namaste

[isegoria1]

Its not a truth because you fail to understand it?

I detect a no true Scotsman argument.

[mskydolphin]

No argument my friend. There is nothing to argue.

I asked you some simple questions.

You have given me no answers.

It may be you just want to fight(?)

I am not here to fight, there is no need.

Your life is obviously working great, for you.

I can tell you're happy, as you are sharing your happiness here.

I look forward to your book.

"The Holes Filled" ~suggestion (smile)

Peace

[isegoria1]

more assumptions and still wrong. You answers are there had you only read them.

[isegoria1]

My solution? Same solution for not getting hurt from jumping off of buildings - Stop doing it.

How many? MMMM I just got back from a 400mile road trip to help a person who was surrounded by AA'ers and they refused him help because he refused to drink the koolaide. Is he better off because of my help? Yes.

There is no wall except the ones that the cultists build.

Studied the 12 and 12? Yea I think I might have while I wasted more than 10 years trying to make sense of the cult.

[isegoria1]

AA uses the disease concept as a whole. It is mentioned in the book at least once and the entire dogma is poised on it.

In NA is it used 69 times in the basic text.

I was never ordered by the courts, why do you make this assumption?

I have my solution

[rusedorange]

"I challenge you to provide ONE reference to this supposed "refinement" of the medical definition of disease. How is this definition an "outdated and archaic opinion"?

You are right, I mis-spoke here insofar as I was inferring that conditions are now recognized as diseases that previously were not. The actual definition of disease probably has changed in 300 years, but I don't have personal knowledge of that.

I certainly agree that truth-seeking is good and honorable.

[rusedorange]

AA taught me to take responsibility; for the poor decisions I made prior to getting there (step 5 and 9) and for the mistakes I make now and in the future (10).

I am sure that there were lots of things you could have learnt had you stayed in AA, so the oldtimers were trying to help by telling you that.

So AA was not for you- that's fine with me, I can accept that, but this AA-bashing is an exercise in stupid negativity.

[Hammersley1967]

AA bashing?

Not me! (Are you talking to me?)

Disease model critiquing perhaps - in the sense of looking at the potential positive AND negative aspects of it. One thing abstinence and recovery gave me was a clear and inquiring mind that has enabled me to be a truth seeker. Even though no one ever gets to the ultimate truth of any given phenomena, it is nevertheless an honorable endeavor to seek it.

Bill Wilson said:

"I will not be a mental loafer. I will read something that requires effort."

[rusedorange]

No Hammersly, I was talking to you about the etiology vs entity discussion. Sorry my posts got mixed up, the others were addressed to Igor.

I can assure you that my experience has been that

1- The AA disease model is very insignificant in the actual practice of the program, the reference found in the literature is used by "anti's" as a opening to attack.

2- AA teaches absolute personal responsibility in my experience, the opposite of what Igor claims.

[Hammersley1967]

1 -

"The AA disease model is very insignificant in the actual practice of the program"

Yep...

2 -

"AA teaches absolute personal responsibility in my experience, the opposite of what Igor claims."

As long as one doesn't twist the "disease" model to serve a dysfunctional and/or narcissistic agenda....

[rusedorange]

Ok Igor, I made it 4 minutes into this one! I am proud of my accomplishment here!

You are saying that in AA people use the disease "theory" to garner support. That is not my experience at all! Instead I see the word disease being used to explain the abject failure most people experience in the final stages of their drinking.

Your main premise seems to be that we are avoiding responsibility or looking for sympathy? Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Hammersley1967]

"I see the word disease being used to explain the abject failure most people experience in the final stages of their drinking."

And here I agree with you absolutely.

The "validity" of the disease concept is in its METAPHORICAL capacity to explain the chronic, irrational, degenerative behaviour of habitual drunkenness.

When used functionally, it can be EMPOWERING. When used dysfunctionally, it can be disastrously disempowering...

[rusedorange]

I don't think so, etiology is the causative factor leading to a particular disease. I think modern medicine, as we learn more about actual human behavioral patterns, is progressively, and rightfully, refining it's definition of what a disease actually is. To insist upon labelling alcoholism as a behavior (remember that behaviors can be manifestations of diseases) is to turn away from scientific advancement and cling stubbornly to an outdated and archaic opinion.

[Hammersley1967]

"I think modern medicine, as we learn more about actual human behavioral patterns, is progressively, and rightfully, refining it's definition of what a disease actually is."

The medical definition of disease has been globally consensual and fixed for over 150 years now. New diseases are being discovered but the medical definition is going nowhere. Nice try - but your reaching and reaching into sheer fabrication. I challenge you to provide ONE reference to the "refinement" of disease definition.

[Hammersley1967]

[A]

"To insist upon labelling alcoholism as a behavior (remember that behaviors can be manifestations of diseases) is to turn away from scientific advancement and cling stubbornly to an outdated and archaic opinion."

(1) Yes, certain behaviours can be symptomatic of psychophysical disease. These diseases are usually neurological and/or bio-genetic/chemical.

[Hammersley1967]

[B]

(2) However, after 225 years of biomedical investigation and 75 years of progressively intensive biomedical investigation, no such somatic etiological basis for alcoholism has EVER been discovered. Zip, Zilch, Nada, Nothin'.

(3) "turn away from scientific advancement and cling stubbornly to an outdated and archaic opinion"?

I challenge you to provide ONE reference to this supposed "refinement" of the medical definition of disease. How is this definition an "outdated and archaic opinion"?

[tommygunz05]

BRILLIANT!lol

[tommyi2d]

you have not done ur research ! I thought it would be fun to argue and debate you but you back up valid oppinions with lies ! I dont think its a disease but the medical community does !

[Mautzyeager]

Tommy, he is educated! Really educated, not like you he is not a munch housing.

[morebooks2005]

Tommy:....the problem with people using the term "disease" is that our society gets the impression that people will offset their behaviors and suggest they aren't responsible as they have a disease....there is validity of a biological basis as CD is a biochemical manifestation much like other MH issues....

Recovery Capital has a far greater success rate than any 12-step rate than any 12-step program,,,,,RC doesn't engender powerlessness....as you know the dropout/retention rate of AA is abysmal

[prschuster]

There is one thing I'd like to add to your straight talking expose' on the disease model. It's a harmless sounding little word called "Denial". Remember the slogan: "Addiction is the only disease that tells you that you don't have a disease."? This is the main bogus disease symptom that is always brought up to give legitimacy to the notion that addiction is a "behavioral disease". And it is the most effective way 12-steppers have of shutting up anyone who questions their diagnosis.

[tobytwirrll]

Thanks for this. Power to the "powerless"! A message of powerlessness is a message of disenpowerment. A message of disempowerment is a message of despair.

[Hammersley1967]

A disease is defined as (1) an interruption, cessation, or disorder of body functions, systems, or organs. (2) A morbid entity characterized usually by at least two of these criteria: recognized etiologic agent(s), identifiable group of signs and symptoms, or consistent anatomic alterations. [Stedman Medical Dictionary, 2008]. Alcoholism and/or drug addiction do not meet either of these definitions no matter how much the AMA or any professional organization bow to political and social pressure.

[morebooks2005]

Well, as I have said before, there is a biochemical basis for addiction,,,and as addiction is a recessive trait we can see the link in twin studies (my fave example)....and there is absolutely morbidity associated with long-term alcohol use....especially if you think about how alcohol effects the organs, etc...and there are very specific signs and symptoms.....check out the brain scans from Dr. Amen...

anyway.....I am getting tired,,,,,I have a miserable cold/flu,,,,,

[Hammersley1967]

[1]

"addiction is a recessive trait we can see the link in twin studies (my fave example)"

Still haven't cited any specific studies, but at least you are referring to a real body of research.

Therefore, on this occasion, you've sparked my interest.

Are you talking about the Goodwyn (1972) alcoholic/non-alcoholic twins study?

[Hammersley1967]

[2]

"and there is absolutely morbidity associated with long-term alcohol use....especially if you think about how alcohol effects the organs, etc...and there are very specific signs and symptoms"

Yes, but you do realise that these SECONDARY diseases are the end result of their etiology - being chronic alcoholism?

That is, alcoholism is a BEHAVIOUR that causes these DISEASES (cirrhosis, neurological damage, renal failure, etc)...

Etiology and disease are being confused here...

[rusedorange]

So are coronary artery disease, COPD, emphysema, diabetes, HTN....hell the list can go on infinitely. Most all diseases can be traced back to some voluntary behavior, does that mean they are not real illnesses? Should we not try to help those people?

Hmmm, obesity, cancer, anorexia......

[Hammersley1967]

[a]

"Most all diseases can be traced back to some voluntary behavior, does that mean they are not real illnesses? Should we not try to help those people?"

That is incorrect. MOST diseases CANNOT be traced back to a voluntary behavior. Disease etiology is usually infectious, environmental or biogenetic. However, some diseases DO have a behavioral causal link. That still doesn't define these causal behaviors (such as overeating, poor food choices, smoking, etc) diseases in and of themselves.

[Hammersley1967]

[b]

Should the sufferers of these illnesses (behaviourally caused or not) be helped?

In my opinion, yes.

However, the video subject matter here is not whether alcoholics should or shouldn't be helped. It's focused on whether or not alcoholism is a disease - and the dangers of the disease model.

BTW: Anorexia is medically defined as an illness, or more specifically as an "eating disorder" - not a disease. Ditto obesity. Both BEHAVIORAL ANOMALIES lead to disease yet are NOT diseases per se.

[Hammersley1967]

Epilogue:

Like other commentators on this and other YT threads, you are confusing disease etiology and disease entity...

[morebooks2005]

:)

I have a miserable cold/flu but I will get back to you....thanks for your videos..

[Hammersley1967]

Okay...

[subwaysleuth]

Thanks for coming out in public to state your good case. It is hard to find strong alternatives - but I continue to try.

[morebooks2005]

SUB: why don't you email me..I'll tell you about Recovery Capital....far greater success rate...far easier to wrap your brain around....I've been a clinician for many years and have always had a problem with AA and the model espoused within the 12-step community ...I am not a fan of RR, however, it is a far better alternative to AA

[englishrule54]

Disease model came from Christianity religion.

[englishrule54]

To tell people that addiction is a disease is a disease called A.A.

[stargazerwoman]

Love it!

[zaaaaaaazaaaaaaaaaaz]

'no more a disease than willful stupidity', that is now in my pitch. most fucking brilliant.

[zaaaaaaazaaaaaaaaaaz]

yo izzy, you are over the top on this vid young brother, EXCELLENT.