So when Italy and Israel don't work, its the fault of proportional representation. But when Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Netherlands, Norway, Scotland, Sweden, Switzerland work, then its because of some other factors? Sorry, can't have it both ways.
190 of the MPs elected in 1998 (62% of the seats) did not get majority support from their voters. I just don't see how we can call first past the post (or AV for that matter) democratic.
Voter turnout is getting lower in all "western" democracies. But it is higher in countries with proportional representation. ...... cause, all vote results in seats.
@cyclingzealot ~False again...a number of countries require that citizens vote, upon pain of legal penalty...also, examine the list you gave: what is common among these countries? A very high level of educational attainment, societal maturity, and economic stability that predates proportional representation. Their governments are not fully PR in most cases, but split between two parliamentary chambers. None of these countries have the out-of-control media influences we do; France does...
It is noteworthy that France has had problems very similar to Italy in terms of economic problems, with the highest rates of subsidies of the EU, which will cause them grave difficulties in the future. The PR system they have prevents the government from modifying the system, and will make for bad trouble down the road. Sorry, no sale...
Disproportional misrepresentation? That's what I call first past the post. Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Netherlands, Norway, Scotland, Sweden, Switzerland. They all have proportional representation and they are doing fine.
Thankfully, Ontario voters recognized the MMPR con-job and refused to get suckered by the "Fair Vote" oxymorons...see Italy and Israel for the wonders of disproportionate misrepresentation.
@pontecanis In the 2008 federal election, 50,7% of all votes did not go to a winning candidate. If you are liberal out west, a green anywhere, an urban conservative, a federalist quebecer or an NDPer anywhere (of which 80% of votes go to waste), chances are your vote did not count. In Ontario, no majority government got elected by a majority of voters since 1937. You want to keep this undemocratic first past the post system?
@cyclingzealot ~The error is in the assumption that the votes "do not count". They most certainly DO, but perhaps in not as direct a fashion as some may wish. If I run a political party that gets say 20% of the vote total, that tells me that 80% of the voters either didn't like my platform, didn't like the candidate, or liked someone else's...that tells me that something has to change. Parties such as the NDP repeatedly ignore this, being devotees of ideology instead of reality...
The proliferation of miniature special interest parties that occurs in disproportionate misrepresentation means that voters slice the electoral pie much finer, meaning that it could very well be possible that such a low total as 20% could very well take a seat. The ILLUSION that all votes "count" in MMPR is just that...when seats are assigned on a proportional basis, and candidates chosen, not elected directly, no votes count. What occurs is worse representation, electoral distortion, and ...
...government by backroom deal. This is why socialists, such as the NDP, are so fond of MMPR: it gives them a back door to power whereby they can bypass the legitimate electoral process, and manipulate a governing party by misusing a balance of power. This repeatedly happens in both Israel and Italy, where little splinter parties have been adversly manipulating the governments, do the detriment of Italy in one case, and to the entire middle east in the other. This is NOT better government.
Disproportional misrepresentation guarantees that miniscule parties have a disproportionate effect on governmental policy...as do the corrupt rightists in Italy (or the corrupt unionists), and the religious extremists in Israel. Italy has had more governments since WWII than the US has had presidents, and Israel is not far behind. Do we need this kind of instability? Fairness is NOT an issue (this is like arguing that creationism be tought in science classes because it is only fair---it isn't.)
The other aspect that NOT ONE of the political parties in Canada pays any attention to is that if you have less than 60% of the electorate voting, 40+% of the electorate has just told the parties THEY DON'T LIKE ANY OF THEM. The parties steadfastly ignore this abstention and try to find some other reason. They are abetted by the media who try frantically to avoid any admission that their appalling coverage may be related to the low loter turnout, malaise, or just plain extinction of interest.
Consider that in the US, they have already begun to talk about the next election...which is in TWO YEARS!!!! By the time it comes to the election, a great many are so damned sick and tired of blasted election talk, interviews, self-styled "experts", and the blathering of politicos that the last thing they want to do is have anything to do with the process...the media are going to do in the electoral process by mass extinguising of interest, except when there is a major polarizing issue...
@pontecanis Not good government eh? Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Netherlands, Norway, Scotland, Sweden, Switzerland. They all have proportional representation and they are doing fine. In fact, most northern European countries are at the top of environmental and social well-being indicators as well as fairly high on economic indicators.
@pontecanis The votes may influence policies, but discarded votes don't get seats. Thus, the elections act discriminates on the basis of political opinion. There is no direct relationship between the % of votes and the % of seats. The Bloc /consistently/ gets fewer votes than the NDP, but the Bloc gets more seats. Yet, Quebec is the province with the highest % of discarded votes - 55% in the last federal election.
If you are able to vote in Ontario, make sure you vote for MMP (Mixed-Member Proportional) in the October 10th, 2007 referendum on changing the voting system.
So when Italy and Israel don't work, its the fault of proportional representation. But when Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Netherlands, Norway, Scotland, Sweden, Switzerland work, then its because of some other factors? Sorry, can't have it both ways.
190 of the MPs elected in 1998 (62% of the seats) did not get majority support from their voters. I just don't see how we can call first past the post (or AV for that matter) democratic.
Julien
cyclingzealot 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
We hit it off so well after another visit busizz4me.info
yamunaperara 1 year ago
Voter turnout is getting lower in all "western" democracies. But it is higher in countries with proportional representation. ...... cause, all vote results in seats.
cyclingzealot 1 year ago
@cyclingzealot ~False again...a number of countries require that citizens vote, upon pain of legal penalty...also, examine the list you gave: what is common among these countries? A very high level of educational attainment, societal maturity, and economic stability that predates proportional representation. Their governments are not fully PR in most cases, but split between two parliamentary chambers. None of these countries have the out-of-control media influences we do; France does...
pontecanis 1 year ago
It is noteworthy that France has had problems very similar to Italy in terms of economic problems, with the highest rates of subsidies of the EU, which will cause them grave difficulties in the future. The PR system they have prevents the government from modifying the system, and will make for bad trouble down the road. Sorry, no sale...
pontecanis 1 year ago
Disproportional misrepresentation? That's what I call first past the post. Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Netherlands, Norway, Scotland, Sweden, Switzerland. They all have proportional representation and they are doing fine.
cyclingzealot 1 year ago
Thankfully, Ontario voters recognized the MMPR con-job and refused to get suckered by the "Fair Vote" oxymorons...see Italy and Israel for the wonders of disproportionate misrepresentation.
pontecanis 1 year ago
@pontecanis In the 2008 federal election, 50,7% of all votes did not go to a winning candidate. If you are liberal out west, a green anywhere, an urban conservative, a federalist quebecer or an NDPer anywhere (of which 80% of votes go to waste), chances are your vote did not count. In Ontario, no majority government got elected by a majority of voters since 1937. You want to keep this undemocratic first past the post system?
cyclingzealot 1 year ago
@cyclingzealot ~The error is in the assumption that the votes "do not count". They most certainly DO, but perhaps in not as direct a fashion as some may wish. If I run a political party that gets say 20% of the vote total, that tells me that 80% of the voters either didn't like my platform, didn't like the candidate, or liked someone else's...that tells me that something has to change. Parties such as the NDP repeatedly ignore this, being devotees of ideology instead of reality...
pontecanis 1 year ago
The proliferation of miniature special interest parties that occurs in disproportionate misrepresentation means that voters slice the electoral pie much finer, meaning that it could very well be possible that such a low total as 20% could very well take a seat. The ILLUSION that all votes "count" in MMPR is just that...when seats are assigned on a proportional basis, and candidates chosen, not elected directly, no votes count. What occurs is worse representation, electoral distortion, and ...
pontecanis 1 year ago
...government by backroom deal. This is why socialists, such as the NDP, are so fond of MMPR: it gives them a back door to power whereby they can bypass the legitimate electoral process, and manipulate a governing party by misusing a balance of power. This repeatedly happens in both Israel and Italy, where little splinter parties have been adversly manipulating the governments, do the detriment of Italy in one case, and to the entire middle east in the other. This is NOT better government.
pontecanis 1 year ago
Disproportional misrepresentation guarantees that miniscule parties have a disproportionate effect on governmental policy...as do the corrupt rightists in Italy (or the corrupt unionists), and the religious extremists in Israel. Italy has had more governments since WWII than the US has had presidents, and Israel is not far behind. Do we need this kind of instability? Fairness is NOT an issue (this is like arguing that creationism be tought in science classes because it is only fair---it isn't.)
pontecanis 1 year ago
The other aspect that NOT ONE of the political parties in Canada pays any attention to is that if you have less than 60% of the electorate voting, 40+% of the electorate has just told the parties THEY DON'T LIKE ANY OF THEM. The parties steadfastly ignore this abstention and try to find some other reason. They are abetted by the media who try frantically to avoid any admission that their appalling coverage may be related to the low loter turnout, malaise, or just plain extinction of interest.
pontecanis 1 year ago
Consider that in the US, they have already begun to talk about the next election...which is in TWO YEARS!!!! By the time it comes to the election, a great many are so damned sick and tired of blasted election talk, interviews, self-styled "experts", and the blathering of politicos that the last thing they want to do is have anything to do with the process...the media are going to do in the electoral process by mass extinguising of interest, except when there is a major polarizing issue...
pontecanis 1 year ago
@pontecanis Not good government eh? Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Netherlands, Norway, Scotland, Sweden, Switzerland. They all have proportional representation and they are doing fine. In fact, most northern European countries are at the top of environmental and social well-being indicators as well as fairly high on economic indicators.
cyclingzealot 1 year ago
@pontecanis The votes may influence policies, but discarded votes don't get seats. Thus, the elections act discriminates on the basis of political opinion. There is no direct relationship between the % of votes and the % of seats. The Bloc /consistently/ gets fewer votes than the NDP, but the Bloc gets more seats. Yet, Quebec is the province with the highest % of discarded votes - 55% in the last federal election.
cyclingzealot 1 year ago
Watch Zeitgeist.Addendum the new Zeitgeist movie or the 1st if you never seen it.
WATCH ZEITGEIST ADDENDUM. (PLZ) It will show you what COULD be done. And how to take care of your self in the times to come.
p.s. Just wanna say you sheep are pure annoying, Get off you asses. Oh and try JUST try and disprove anything. you can't cause its true!
evasivex80x 3 years ago
If you are able to vote in Ontario, make sure you vote for MMP (Mixed-Member Proportional) in the October 10th, 2007 referendum on changing the voting system.
linuxluver 4 years ago