The 15th episode of the last season, "Across the Sea", tells you all you need to know about the writers' attitude towards reason, curiosity, mysticism, abuse, murder, etc.
I'm listening to you and while it's clear that you are advancing an - ermmm - "very very personal interpretation" of the show, I am a bit worried about your use of terms like "rationality" and "evidence". At some points, it seems you take "rationality" as synonymous of "scientific" (which would be another term in need of rogorous definition). You also take "evidence" as unambiguous, when it's not - as the "problem of the underdetermination of theories by data" teaches us...
am I the only atheist that enjoyed LOST? It's definitely one of my favorite shows of all time, it's just a TV show, a fiction, no need to dissect it with rationalism...
and it actually shows how religion is stupid, most people got angry on how many stuff on the show didn't make sense (religious ppl btw), and it gave me at least some ammo to show how their own religion don't make sense, the only difference being that they're getting angry at a work of fiction while believing the other nonsense.
Locke regaining the ability to walk is never explained but, like you said, we can assume there is in fact some scientific/cause & effect explanation (as opposed to Locke's leap of faith mysticism). But you are so quick to dismiss everything else that happens on the island (the hatch button, the smoke monster, etc.) as mystical insanity, whereas I assume all of it has some scientific explanation that is just beyond the characters' or our current understanding.
@dto219: It's a TV show. It's not real. It's fake. It's seriously like arguing that, given a long enough time to explore and probe Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we can find out a perfectly naturalistic way to explain dead people rising again with behavioral and complete physical changes. It's an intentional plot device to make the show more exciting, nothing more.
@andyissemicool I meant that 'within the world/rules of the show' there is a scientific explanation for everything as opposed to magic. DHARMA was discovering the scientific truths, while people like Locke were taking leaps of faith.
(3/3) In the end what Lost is about the struggle between what we are taught to believe and what we experience. Science & Religion in its logic/dogma miss out on subjective POV, experience, and personal truth. Interestingly enough, neither Jack nor Lock became caretakers of the island. In the end we find out that the whole thing was like a play and the purpose of these experiences was to touch and experience the other characters in the play. That was the value of it.
(2/2) We do live in a time that most value is put on external mass. Individual experience is totally secondary to what "science" and what "religion" teach us. Both science and religion are external mass, their values and assertions come from the outside and society puts far more value in what Christianity thinks oppose to what you think. Same goes for science. Mysticism on the other hand is completely personal and internal. You have to go within to experience these insights and inner truths.
Check out Ken Wilber for a reference. He basically divides knowledge and experience into four categories: Internal, external, personal, mass. Science works on external mass level where as inner truth is at the internal personal level. What lock experience was personal and internal and it worked for him. Jack on the other hand works on the external mass POV and bases everything on what is provable and accepted scientifically.
Love the multi-generational reasoning of the "next coming" now this is the religion to be in! See it's beauty? Say he is right, good, let the collective have what they created, it will be great for your kids! Have the reality of this society reap what it sows, now there is a solution! That is far better than "good parenting" that is something worth having, perhaps the solution really is bad parenting by the state, that seems to be the best option for people like stef, it creates extremes...
They had some really powerful writers on this show and they did the best they can with season 5 and 6. You could sort of sense whether some parts were about them really wanting to continue telling a good story, yet wanting to get to the end. I enjoyed the show overall, but the only thing I hate is how much of a cop out it was for Sayid to meet Shannon in the sideways world. Their relationship didn't even seem powerful enough to begin with.
Excellent review! I wasted 6 horrible years to that show!
I began watching the show thinking it would ultimately yield to reason, but by the 4th season the irrationality and the unexplained revealed the show as nothing more than a plunder of new-age mumbo-jumbo.
Lost was an embarrassment that doesn't deserve the respect the fan-dom gives it.
While I did enjoy this video very much, I have to say it lacks any merit whatsoever. The way in which you state your opinion as fact really bothers me. You have a reasonable but albeit narrow and rather dull interpretation of LOST as a whole.
Especially the part about children.. a very narrow minded idea. You obviously were bought up with a religion you later didn't have the same passion for. I feel as if you are acting in rebellion as an older man. Sad. Cheers.
DIDNT ENJOY THIS REVIEW ...NOT BECAUSE LACK OF INTERPITATION I JUST DONT LIKE YOU LIKE THAT KID YOU JUST WANT TO PUNCH IN THE FACE LEAVE MY FAVORITE TV SHOW OF ALL TIME ALONE 10:00 MIN IN CANT BELIEVE I MADE IT THIS FAR THUMBS DOWN GOODBYE
You are too vain about distinguishing your lack of faith. Faith is not about this or that, it is about believing in that which is not words; the actions of the universe. Faith is believing in the benevolence of good will.
I think that this is a pretty odd explanation. For me the reason won. The man representing evil infiltrated Locke (faith) and took away the light of the human heart, then the goodness (Jacob) used the Reason (Jack) to return it back.
Hey you at least got Sherlock Holmes and Scooby Doo (minus the talking dog). There's always a rational explanation in those. It might just be lazy writing, but it's easier to create a sense of mystery when you suspend the laws of our universe.
How is it rational or persuasive to begin an argument by dismissing practically everyone in history as a mental patient worthy of pity? This, to me, is the opposite of rationality. And if Stef intends to persuade people with this argument, I would suggest that he rethink it. All it does is bolster his own sense of superiority over all those who disagree with him.
Many people would also discard certain fields of physics as being nonsense. The idea of timetravel or dimensional portals... these are things athat are perfectly possible in theory and yet are frowned upon. Who is to determine what is 'mysticism' or 'insanity'? You? If religion is the opiate of the masses then so be it... it's everyone's choice. That my friend, IS individualism... if people choose to be swayed by certain idiotic ideas it's THEIR choice.
@Lee86Cr that idiotic choice IS bad for humanity; it IS bad for the children to whom they teach it. it prevents every kind of progress and every kind of justice.
@Lee86Cr anything that discourages thought and freedom and individualism is insidious and vile nonsense
Case in point: Locke's "We have a destiny" turned out to be complete bullshit and this was all just a pathetic game that the god and the devil played to see who'd win, with the islanders being just pathetic pawns
I agree. But then people should also be FREE to make the decision on their own INDIVIDUAL terms, otherwise you're just as bad as the church. I personally don't believe in God and I greatly admire people like Richard Dawkins. (To a certain extent) But it seems like a large group of atheïsts are now on some sort of crusade. telling people how to live their lives. No one should tell anyone how to live their lives, nor Christians or Muslims or Atheïsts. That is individualism.
Very interesting how you say that what Lindelof and Cuse 'meant' has no value to you whatoever because you are convinced the show means something else entirely. Isn't that a form of delusion as well? Isn't that distortion? The deeper you delve into physics the more difficult it becomes to scientifically explain the universe. Heisenberg, Hubble, Tesla, Kaku,... some of the greatest scientific minds the world has ever seen were and are all convinced of something 'more'.
@Hootons The show does not even attempt to get caught in the quagmire of where life came from. Mother explains that we all got here as if "by accident".
We simply don't know our every antecedent and neither does anyone else.
Simple reason why the movie ends like that - It is a way to make it easier and desirable for the people to accept DEATH with joy so that people can be prepared for the horrific fruits of our stupidity we are about to witness.
@Hootons yes it is very complicated and to tell you the truth i have no idea why were the only intelligent ones on the planet. thats a very hard question to answer. but just because we cant explain something doesnt mean we should act irrationaly by saying "its because of some being or force in the galaxy." or smoething like that. maybe one day we'll know..
this is the largest missunderstanding of the show Lost I have ever seen. You are truly a tedious dumbshit to be able to pull this out of such a faith oriented show
speaking of irrationality i just found out that my aunt doesnt have cancer any more just gone no trace of it left. which is great of course except that now everyone one thinks...any one the answer? yes! GOD made it magiclly disapear! which for us racional human biengs is just CRAZY! oh yes some being in the sky made aunts cancer go bye bye. its childish the way they think. and to top it all off im the crazy one for not beliving in that magic man in the sky..myhead hurts just trying 2 think likem
i enjoyed this review more than i enjoyed lost. i did quit watching after 2.5 seasons of Lost because i lost faith in the writers ability to explain all the cliffhangers. i think this philosophical review is more an insight into you as the reviewer. and i think you say some really important things and make great points.
LOST was sooooo drawn out scene by scene with deliberate cuts and non sequiters that I LOST interest in it within 3 episodes - so glad - 6 series later it ended and I was FREE of not caring one way or another!
Dude, I agree partly with you... Firstly, the guys that made Lost, actually fed the audience with a load of rubbish, followed by a big question mark by the end of every episode. Secondly, I don't believe that you need to be depressed to become mysticist. In my opinion, most people that are mysticist are actually simpletons, they think in a linear way and they're not at all depressed, for they ensure themselves of a future salvation... The depressed people are usually the ones that know...
@rusH1023 All good! non taken. Any debate is good debate and hope I didn't sound too grouchy. Any ideas why the owner of this page keeps deleting our on topic conversation?
If the Google/Verizon merge happens, or something of that nature happens, YOU will be in the slow lane, or the NO lane. That's actually a compliment. Rationality will be in the slow lane struggling to survive, as it does in every facet of our society. Continue posting. I love listening to other people that actually think.
I agree with him that the world will come to its senses eventually, whatever that might mean exactly (it seems like we tend to think that our current science is some form of absolute Truth, just like religion claims to be). Humans have a way of building something better once our old ways fail. And with the rate at which things change these days as compared to throughout history, I think there’s reason to be optimistic, even if only to help us avoid a self-fulfilling prophecy.
....As much as I admire your passionate and well constructed arguments I feel somehow that, to borrow on your reasoning, we are at risk of throwing the abused baby of mysticism out with the muddied water of superstition. Let us not make the same mistake with our science as our religions have made with spirituality : )
its just an opinion but the way I see it is as follows. I am spiritual in as much as I believe there is some deeper part of us that can be developed/reached, and that we are all part of some larger consiousness than simply ourselves. Call this god, the ID, gaia, ecology- pick your metaphor. I choose to call it spirituality.
@frodothefoundless stop picking metaphors and names and judging and just close your eyes. the truth aint out there. it is in you. go to the other side of the movie.
@rusH1023 how this is distinguished from (organised) religion, is that a defining characteristic (again just as I see it) of religion is that they all claim to offer the truth, the only truth, and the one true truth. God is defined in their books alongside the only way to know god. Any deviation from this dogmatic view is considered heresy with risk of damnation...Can you now see how this differs from the searching/questioning definition of spirituality I gave above? yes I AM that type of person
....Current conventional science asks us to consider some pretty wacky stuff as it is, and its operation requires the reappraisal of existing dogma in light of new evidence. There is much in the realms of mind and the seeming interconnectedness of all matter that science as yet has no real answers for....
I has been said that any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic, is it therefore too much to consider that any magic sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from technology? What I mean by this is that when you look deeply enough into mysticism it seems to be pointing towards an understanding of the mechanics of the universe that as yet our science has no framework for, and thus no language to explain.....
I am finding that rationality and feeling (mysticism) lead to exactly the same answers in the end. You just have to dig deep enough and thus break many layers of superficiality to get to it.
Try not to dismiss what you don't understand. That is the height of irrationality in my book ;)
Again, other than this disagreement, I love your work.
I still love your work and agree with 95% of what you say. The only thing that is irrational about your approach, is the fact that you dismiss God as being irrational. True, religion is pure bullshit, or rather, has been perverted in to pure bullshit, and the same is happening with New Age stuff. They are traps for you to start believing in, instead of finding the answers from within, where God truly is. I think you are more in tune with God than you would care to admit Stefan ;). Anyway, +++
To me the island embodies all your hopes and dreams, which u use to draw strength to be better (the water ritual for stewardship of the island was a powerful metaphor)
I think hugo is doing just fine running the irrational island with his number 2
I didn't object too much for the mysticism in LOST, as it actually only made the mysteries more absorbing, but to conclude the story without at least providing reasonable explanations for its mysteries and instead spoon-feeding completely superstitious answer (if any) was disappointing to everyone. The public as a whole agrees that supernatural explanations are an unsatisfactory solution to a mystery. Religiosity et al doesn't make people irrational, it makes them self-censoring in their use.
between 05:00 and 08:50, you have just described me 6 years ago, before I saw the light of philosophy. Amazing how circular and global rationality is.
Hey Stefan, Jay P Hailey Here. I think you identified some of the conflict - even so - if you assume for the sake of fiction that the Island does have previously unknown abilities to change people - even so that doesn't rationally imply any of the rest of the points of the story.
The Basic plot of Lost was about Faith Versus Reason - and shows the post modern (English Lit) dismissal for the rational.
You have such a bias view of the show. It's almost as if you did not see the whole series. The island did heal Locke, as well as giving special abilities to other characters on the show, or blessings. Like surfmadpig said, it's a balance of both that lost was trying to get through to the viewers. There is plenty of Christian metaphoric traits the plot has. I'm not talking about the religion everybody has polluted and corrupted, I'm talking about the real message of love for humanity from Jesus.
maybe fantasy is just more entertaining than realistic, normal, reasonable, and down to earth storyline. I was drawn to the reasonable side of things but realized quickly that it isn't worth my time to sit and watch a show an hour a week to watch a realistic plot unfold. I'm not religious but it made it more interesting to watch and I'm sure everyone involved in writing it saw it that was too and just wanted to make more money. I'd just stop digging that deep. money. that's all it was.
I agree with most. Thanks for going a bit beyond the obvious.
What bothers me is that the show promotes religion, by letting the religious path be the right one. I think that is a very dangerous message - especially today...
@OperationBaboon The entire purpose of religion is to promote morality. To promote good actions toward our fellow man. This guy in the video missed the entire point of Lost, which is kinda sad for him. You need both science and faith, together. Jack and John each had the opposite problem.
Some of the greatest proponents of reason throughout history have been men of faith as well. Take Thomas Jefferson for example, or even John Locke who recognized the importance of religion.
@ReconisTribe faith and religion may seem close but are two entirely different things. Faith is the basic of hope and the drive for a better reality. Religion just (ab)uses that drive in us to power its motives. Religion is archaic and as long as we can't grow out of it, there will be no future for humankind.
And religion does the quite opposite of promoting mortality. It sells fake immortality as incentive. And you need no religion to do good to your next, just compassion.
@OperationBaboon Yeah I pretty much agree with everything you said but I think you misunderstand my definition of religion. Read up on Leo Tolstoy's philosophy, or just read the short story "The Death of Ivan Ilyich" by Tolstoy. With Darwin came a lot of problems, for one we are essentially machines programed by our genes, so intelligence/reason/soul don't exist. Tolstoy tried to solve this by saying we can achieve meaning and value by connecting to the 'infinite' or by a religious experience.
@ReconisTribe I take it a bit further then Tolstoy and say that the genetic imprint to evolve - which is motivator #1 - is turned into spirituality by our brain chemistry to accommodate us, to make sense of this inner urge we cannot grasp.
But there is no need to go all superstitious - spirituality and meaning can do very well without religion.
At one point, where spirituality does not cut it anymore, most brains get into this inner conflict, until you realize, that a conscious brain can choose.
@OperationBaboon Right I mean we kinda already covered that. We are simply sacs of chemicals controlled by or DNA. We are nothing more than moving molecules. Basically the same thing you just said. The point is, without some sort of connection to the infinite aka 'religion' there can be no values or meaning in life. Any meaning you make of it in the finite world is simply the chemical reactions in your brain. And no, according to Darwin we don't make choices at all, there is no free will.
@ReconisTribe which is why a finite answer will not satisfy us for some time.
Just because we don't need superstitious and make-believe stories to see the connection to the universe, does not mean it is not there.
There are several ways to interpret the connection. And as always, it is us who create meaning, as we create the universe.
Yes, your life is insignificant on the galactic scale, but to YOU it matters. And that should be the basis of your meaning of life. It up to you from there...
@OperationBaboon Does the value you assign life exist after you die? Also I think I covered pretty well why we cannot create any values or meaning. But just because we cannot create any values, does not mean we cannot accept death and appreciate all the finite things.
Did we "create" the universe? Not so sure about that.
What 'connection' to the universe do we have other than the fact that we are all made of the same stuff? Not sure where you are going with that.
@ReconisTribe very much so. Actually my personal life's value is based on a very universal value and believe me, it not only makes more sense, it is far more fulfilling then those of religion and other ideologies.
We are the only ones that create value and meaning. We might not have startest the process, but we create the universe as we look at it, define and measure it. We give it meaning. We are like neurons, converting energy and making sense of things.
@OperationBaboon Ok I thought you meant the literal physical universe.
I think the views you have are fine. The only point I am trying to make really is that pure materialism doesn’t leave any room for values of any kind and doesn’t attempt to come to any moral conclusions.You seem like a classic atheist existentialist and even Camus himself thought true religion was a good thing, so I guess I'm not really sure why you dislike religion so much.
@ReconisTribe I would never consider myself a real atheist. But then again, I don't likes labeling in general.
The reason why I don't like religion is quiet simple: It's bad for us. The harm is causes as an obsolete social technology are by far outweighing the benefits. Especially because you can get these benefits without the drawbacks and without religion.
Religion creates a common reality. Good for creating big tribes, bad for a modern diverse and scientific world without borders.
@OperationBaboon Also I think my main point about Lost in general is that it seems to support and showcase almost all modern philosophies and while in the end it did go more a Tolstoy route, I don’t think it is invalidating any of the other options. I mean someone might say that the entire sideways timeline was merely a dream or something that jack had as he was dying or something. You don't have to believe in an infinite to like the show.
@ReconisTribe It still instills the possibility of afterlife. Any sort of afterlife is just fear of death and very archaic. Today we can concentrate on not dying. We are likely to see immortality ourself. What happens to afterlife then?
Religion is just not fitting for our times. We could combine them and form a sort of spiritual guide like the first theosophic society tried to create. It is time for reasoning and knowledge instead of believes.
@OperationBaboon You probably already know this, so sorry if this is redundant, but Camus did think that the ideas of an afterlife, or of a God were absurd. But he also thought that the true honest atheist and the true honest religious person were both working toward the same goal: that of fighting the endless struggle against evil. So in that sense he did like religion and it's place in society. Hell even Freud thought religion had a purpose.
@ReconisTribe In those times you did not loudly proclaim atheism and I am sure they did not have such insight in what religion causes on a global scale. Aside from that, it takes people time to grow out of old systems, including the smartest people.
Even morality can be understood and defined scientifically today, without risk of subjective and dogmatic realities interfering with the answers.
I am a philosopher and my mind stays open, but I have seen a new light and it is brighter then gods...
@OperationBaboon Haha I don't think you have even answered a single of my questions directly. Bravo. Based on this long conversation we have had I am now thoroughly convinced you have no philosophical background whatsoever. Instead of debating the issues you continue the same rant over and over.Good day sir.
"Self contradictory in it's universalization" does not make a subject sterile, just illogical. Nor does violence seek out children. It is simply most effective on the weakest. You breeders think everyone wants your child. Violence does not have a personal vendetta against children. In fact it is not a person at all.
Mysticism and violence are sterile? as in infertile? as in unable to produce? Hmmm? I am sorry but if that were true, would there be a need to disprove, discount or avoid the unproductive. Nothing is inert. Slow and unable to prove it's worth, yes, but not unyielding. All things have an effect. Are you sure you don't want to add a qualitative word to those statements.
"Self contradictory in it's universalization" does not make a subject sterile, just illogical. Nor does violence seek out children. It is simply most effective on the weakest. You breeders think everyone wants your child. Violence does not have a personal vendetta against children. In fact it is not a person at all.
Stefan, mysticism and violence doesn't hurt people. People hurt people.
Why is an intelligent man watching an idiot box anyway? As far as end goals and destinations go, wouldn't time be better spent getting off the monorail and jumping on a track with a lil more to explore
Did you even watch the show at all? Your grandstanding nature is unbearable, all with some typical arguments from a Philosophy 101 class. What rational evidence is there to believe that a guy who fell eight stories out of a window is paralyzed because of any psychosomatic reasons? The "mystical" elements were there and Locke was the first to understand them because he was healed. Locke was right, and they all came around in the end. Its fiction! So the mystical stuff can be real! Jeez.
@jocam000 It seems as though you've completely missed Stef's points here. Of course it's fiction - what he's attempting is an analysis of what the writers of the show meant to convey to viewers through the use of symbology and mythology.
I think you've let your personal thoughts on reason vs. faith influence your reading of Lost. at the beginning of the series, it was clear that the scientist, the man of reason, was a moron - and he remained one until he let a healthy dose of spirituality invade his life. on the other hand, Locke, who believed in faith too much, was taken advantage of. What LOST suggests is a healthy balance of the two. and that's not bad at all.
@surfmadpig Definitely! Both Locke and Eko, the two most faithful people on the island, were taken advantage of because of their faith. But they were still right!
@surfmadpig Yes, it's clear that the man of reason was a moron (self-contradictory as that may be), and that's the whole point. This echoes the sentiment of the general public: They value faith more than reason (and even think rational people are 'morons' because they don't understand reason), and that's why the writers made the show go as it did. You're forgetting that in the end the mystical crap turned out to be right, whether or not Locke 'believed too much'.
@surfmadpig I honestly couldn't have put it better and I also think stefbot has some good points, he has a very well developed view on reason and faith, but he's to personally absorbed by this that he hasn't chosen to approach LOST with a more open mind. He's to narrow minded to see things more than they are to him. Shame.
“You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. Dogs do not ritually urinate in the hope of persuading heaven to do the same and send down rain. Asses do not bray a liturgy to cloudless skies. Nor do cats attempt, by abstinence from cat's meat, to wheedle the feline spirits into benevolence. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, quite intelligent enough.”
I think it was pretty realistic that to stop pushing the button had some consequence. It will not be easy for the world to stop pushing that button, and it will not be without consequence, But when they stopped pushing the button, eventually what happened was that the church (or hatch) turned into a hole, and the other church Ecko and Charlie where building was never finished. So, jeej for us atheïsts
Religion is the most powerful threat of all, that's why it works, and until people learn that being ration, logical, and scientific, is the far kinder alternative to live in fear of an unknown and all powerful force that will make our souls miserable for the rest of eternity unless we satisfy him by profiting those behind the institutions that sustain it...
Is difficult for someone who has been threatened and abused all his life to just let go, and stop following that pattern because of fear.
I consider myself a very critical an opinionated person, and the only criticism I have to your critic is, ironically having none...
I was considering watching the whole show just so that I could break it down philosophically in the sense of, as you said, how the writers disappointingly made the right choice by taking the show towards mysticism instead of rationalism, because sadly enough, it delivered the right message the majority of fans were hoping for.
I like these videos where a popular movie or show is analyzed. They say something about our culture and our time. I play around with analyzing things too, but I seldom share my thoughts or conclusions because people around me usually tell me I "think too much" and "it's just a show, shut up and enjoy it". Anyway, thanks for an interesting video. I stopped watching Lost after some time because I couldn't stand the drama and the pointless things happening.
Although you draw up some interesting similarities between god fearing society you are missing a big point. The properties of the island were not of an unexplainable nature and the focus was on science to explain them. The dharma initiative had their research stations setup specifically to study the phenomena scientifically. I agree lost put a lot of emphasis on mysticism especially at the end, but the show has now ended with them never having attempted to offload the mystery onto a deity.
I don't know if you reply to comments here or not.
Would you describe Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle as Lost in which rationality "wins?" The story has many parallels: the karass, themes of fate, an island with a world destroying force, mysticism which purports to explain everything, etc. Yet the mysticism in Cat's Cradle is like a nice practical joke, whereas in Lost it is very real.
The world is better understood if you move beyond your average interlect and laborious metaphors, Raise your conciousness and neutralise your skeptacism for everything that you percieve through your beady little eyeballs. An interesting fact is that the world we see around us 0.05% of all known energy that surrounds and binds us. Of that 0.05% maybe you understand and percieve 10% of this. OPEN YOUR MIND. I'm sorry but your words fall hollow after reading great works of Dante, Milton and Blake.
What I got from Lost is that all wizard-type characters (Others, Ben, Alpert, Jacob) were one after another debunked as small pitiful characters.
Jack's actions, killing the possesed Locke & fixing up the light, seem rational enough to me. I mean evidence-based rationality such as you're standing on a island in blisful conditions, light goes off, earthquakes start. Whats the rational thing to do? Fix that light-sucker up.
Reason ain't all it's cracked up to be. Folks come up with all kinds of reasons for doin' the things, or, if they think it through and it all comes crashing down, they'll say, "It seemed reasonable at the time"
We can achieve non-violence through reason, bit a more direct approach is empathy and compassion. If we look at all our technologies and rational management schemes we see an abundance of rational thought...but to what end?
I'm not just talking about post-hoc rationalizations. I'm referring to rational management schemes that appear reasonable given a particular set of perceptions and assumptions. Scientific management of the east coast cod stocks and their subsequent demise is a perfect example of a failure of reason. Stef would likely say "Blame the State", but that's beside the point. Reason is only one of our many faculties and can be misapplied.
@thewirrow that must seriously be the most retarded thing i have ever heard. I cant believe all these people comment saying things like we shouldn't use reason, its like saying we shouldn't be smart.
@christelesio you can rationalise what the stories you senses tell you. but 'rationalisation' is a new religion, one that cannot tackle our consciousness..and will equate the miserable world of religion with our true nature of imagination and enchantment. imagination IS the human existence itself.. and i do not need to be an unreasonable religious maniac to understand this. this division of science vs religion.. as if that is all there is... is the most retarded thing IVE ever heard
@thewirrow you can also imagine things that make sense and can help us in the reality we live in, as in inventing new technologies and such, instead of magical beings.
@christelesio i dont think new technologies are the means to a better future. i dont know what kind of technologies ur imagining.. but i think its all about what you believe to be at the core of all the evils in the world. and i dont think that the core is lack of 'rationality'. i put that in quotes because i have no beef with using reason.. everything i believe can be reasoned.. but 'rationality' has become a modern religion. one that also seems to equate philosophy with scientific evidence
I know its just a story but why would the rational and reasonable man have to die; if rationalism and reason are all we need why wasn't it enough for him? I was reminded of the true story of the man who found himself stranded on an arctic island and to survive mentally he made up a companion for himself and all sorts of rituals which kept him alive until help came the following Spring.
This guy Stef has been working away on my habitual mysticism for a year or so, and I'm starting to reform, hopefully not from some kind of smokemonster, but from a type of mystic button-pusher.
Reform into? I wonder - I wonder what a completely rational version of myself would look like.
I actually know that only the tips of our psychological icebergs are rational, but just to get that rational part to be fully rational, that would be a fine challenge.
The 15th episode of the last season, "Across the Sea", tells you all you need to know about the writers' attitude towards reason, curiosity, mysticism, abuse, murder, etc.
pperezklein 1 week ago
Thanx for all this ; )
0ddFutureW0lf 3 weeks ago
I'm listening to you and while it's clear that you are advancing an - ermmm - "very very personal interpretation" of the show, I am a bit worried about your use of terms like "rationality" and "evidence". At some points, it seems you take "rationality" as synonymous of "scientific" (which would be another term in need of rogorous definition). You also take "evidence" as unambiguous, when it's not - as the "problem of the underdetermination of theories by data" teaches us...
vins1979 4 months ago
am I the only atheist that enjoyed LOST? It's definitely one of my favorite shows of all time, it's just a TV show, a fiction, no need to dissect it with rationalism...
and it actually shows how religion is stupid, most people got angry on how many stuff on the show didn't make sense (religious ppl btw), and it gave me at least some ammo to show how their own religion don't make sense, the only difference being that they're getting angry at a work of fiction while believing the other nonsense.
imnodog 4 months ago
couldn't quite make it as a philosopher could you...wank!
pierrevalois00 4 months ago
is the lost psychosisis, a metaphor for. the illiusion of wealth we are momentairily living in?
landloper1986 4 months ago
"The world will come to an end. God will send water to strike lesbians in New Orleans". That part had me rollin. funny quote.
jamestbrown23 5 months ago
To paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke, "Any sufficiently complex scientific phenomena is indistinguishable from magic."
dto219 7 months ago
Locke regaining the ability to walk is never explained but, like you said, we can assume there is in fact some scientific/cause & effect explanation (as opposed to Locke's leap of faith mysticism). But you are so quick to dismiss everything else that happens on the island (the hatch button, the smoke monster, etc.) as mystical insanity, whereas I assume all of it has some scientific explanation that is just beyond the characters' or our current understanding.
dto219 7 months ago
@dto219: It's a TV show. It's not real. It's fake. It's seriously like arguing that, given a long enough time to explore and probe Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we can find out a perfectly naturalistic way to explain dead people rising again with behavioral and complete physical changes. It's an intentional plot device to make the show more exciting, nothing more.
andyissemicool 5 months ago
@andyissemicool I meant that 'within the world/rules of the show' there is a scientific explanation for everything as opposed to magic. DHARMA was discovering the scientific truths, while people like Locke were taking leaps of faith.
dto219 4 months ago
(3/3) In the end what Lost is about the struggle between what we are taught to believe and what we experience. Science & Religion in its logic/dogma miss out on subjective POV, experience, and personal truth. Interestingly enough, neither Jack nor Lock became caretakers of the island. In the end we find out that the whole thing was like a play and the purpose of these experiences was to touch and experience the other characters in the play. That was the value of it.
TheCashForGoldStore 8 months ago
(2/2) We do live in a time that most value is put on external mass. Individual experience is totally secondary to what "science" and what "religion" teach us. Both science and religion are external mass, their values and assertions come from the outside and society puts far more value in what Christianity thinks oppose to what you think. Same goes for science. Mysticism on the other hand is completely personal and internal. You have to go within to experience these insights and inner truths.
TheCashForGoldStore 8 months ago
Check out Ken Wilber for a reference. He basically divides knowledge and experience into four categories: Internal, external, personal, mass. Science works on external mass level where as inner truth is at the internal personal level. What lock experience was personal and internal and it worked for him. Jack on the other hand works on the external mass POV and bases everything on what is provable and accepted scientifically.
TheCashForGoldStore 8 months ago
i am amazed how accurat it is, what you say here about lost. amazing how it just fits.
Geographenblick 8 months ago
LOST looked REAAALLY good when it started, then they rewrit the script to make more money and turned it into a complete pile of DOG SHIT.. fuck lost.
AbattoirDream 8 months ago
Love the multi-generational reasoning of the "next coming" now this is the religion to be in! See it's beauty? Say he is right, good, let the collective have what they created, it will be great for your kids! Have the reality of this society reap what it sows, now there is a solution! That is far better than "good parenting" that is something worth having, perhaps the solution really is bad parenting by the state, that seems to be the best option for people like stef, it creates extremes...
LibertyJedi 8 months ago
They had some really powerful writers on this show and they did the best they can with season 5 and 6. You could sort of sense whether some parts were about them really wanting to continue telling a good story, yet wanting to get to the end. I enjoyed the show overall, but the only thing I hate is how much of a cop out it was for Sayid to meet Shannon in the sideways world. Their relationship didn't even seem powerful enough to begin with.
ShadowCrowX 9 months ago
Excellent review! I wasted 6 horrible years to that show!
I began watching the show thinking it would ultimately yield to reason, but by the 4th season the irrationality and the unexplained revealed the show as nothing more than a plunder of new-age mumbo-jumbo.
Lost was an embarrassment that doesn't deserve the respect the fan-dom gives it.
technologic21 9 months ago
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technologic21 9 months ago
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technologic21 9 months ago
While I did enjoy this video very much, I have to say it lacks any merit whatsoever. The way in which you state your opinion as fact really bothers me. You have a reasonable but albeit narrow and rather dull interpretation of LOST as a whole.
Especially the part about children.. a very narrow minded idea. You obviously were bought up with a religion you later didn't have the same passion for. I feel as if you are acting in rebellion as an older man. Sad. Cheers.
keegan182 10 months ago
DIDNT ENJOY THIS REVIEW ...NOT BECAUSE LACK OF INTERPITATION I JUST DONT LIKE YOU LIKE THAT KID YOU JUST WANT TO PUNCH IN THE FACE LEAVE MY FAVORITE TV SHOW OF ALL TIME ALONE 10:00 MIN IN CANT BELIEVE I MADE IT THIS FAR THUMBS DOWN GOODBYE
redruM123M 10 months ago
You are too vain about distinguishing your lack of faith. Faith is not about this or that, it is about believing in that which is not words; the actions of the universe. Faith is believing in the benevolence of good will.
ch2iss 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
This is some crazy Nathanial Brandon / Ayn Rand analysis.
Jack was NOT an empiricist. He experienced via evidence that the island itself was not bound by the normal laws of physics/time.
Jack is also a statist and collectivist.
jmaggio909 10 months ago
This is some crazy Nathanial Brandon / Ayn Rand analysis.
Jack was NOT an empiricist. He experienced via evidence that the island itself was not bound by the normal laws of physics/time.
Jack is also a statist and collectivist.
jmaggio909 10 months ago
I think that this is a pretty odd explanation. For me the reason won. The man representing evil infiltrated Locke (faith) and took away the light of the human heart, then the goodness (Jacob) used the Reason (Jack) to return it back.
5m1nutes 11 months ago
Hey you at least got Sherlock Holmes and Scooby Doo (minus the talking dog). There's always a rational explanation in those. It might just be lazy writing, but it's easier to create a sense of mystery when you suspend the laws of our universe.
rios9000 11 months ago
How is it rational or persuasive to begin an argument by dismissing practically everyone in history as a mental patient worthy of pity? This, to me, is the opposite of rationality. And if Stef intends to persuade people with this argument, I would suggest that he rethink it. All it does is bolster his own sense of superiority over all those who disagree with him.
stuntbaby63 11 months ago
Many people would also discard certain fields of physics as being nonsense. The idea of timetravel or dimensional portals... these are things athat are perfectly possible in theory and yet are frowned upon. Who is to determine what is 'mysticism' or 'insanity'? You? If religion is the opiate of the masses then so be it... it's everyone's choice. That my friend, IS individualism... if people choose to be swayed by certain idiotic ideas it's THEIR choice.
Lee86Cr 1 year ago 6
@Lee86Cr that idiotic choice IS bad for humanity; it IS bad for the children to whom they teach it. it prevents every kind of progress and every kind of justice.
plarfusa 8 months ago
@Lee86Cr Excellent, in freedom, Agreed.
LibertyJedi 8 months ago
@Lee86Cr anything that discourages thought and freedom and individualism is insidious and vile nonsense
Case in point: Locke's "We have a destiny" turned out to be complete bullshit and this was all just a pathetic game that the god and the devil played to see who'd win, with the islanders being just pathetic pawns
vtran31 4 months ago
@vtran31
I agree. But then people should also be FREE to make the decision on their own INDIVIDUAL terms, otherwise you're just as bad as the church. I personally don't believe in God and I greatly admire people like Richard Dawkins. (To a certain extent) But it seems like a large group of atheïsts are now on some sort of crusade. telling people how to live their lives. No one should tell anyone how to live their lives, nor Christians or Muslims or Atheïsts. That is individualism.
Lee86Cr 4 months ago
@Lee86Cr athiests view religion as superstitious hogwash and are very angry at its abilities to brainwash people into ignorance and doing bad things
historically, this is true - just look at the crusades, inquisition, and the modern evangelical movement and their treatment of gays
vtran31 4 months ago
Respond to this video... and yes, I greatly admire mr dawkins as well. he's also not a bad teacher of evolutionary b iology
vtran31 4 months ago
Very interesting how you say that what Lindelof and Cuse 'meant' has no value to you whatoever because you are convinced the show means something else entirely. Isn't that a form of delusion as well? Isn't that distortion? The deeper you delve into physics the more difficult it becomes to scientifically explain the universe. Heisenberg, Hubble, Tesla, Kaku,... some of the greatest scientific minds the world has ever seen were and are all convinced of something 'more'.
Lee86Cr 1 year ago
I'm guessing "Lost" is some TV show?
pretorious700 1 year ago
Today's episode is brought to you by the letter 'S'.
FistKissBoom 1 year ago
@Hootons The show does not even attempt to get caught in the quagmire of where life came from. Mother explains that we all got here as if "by accident".
We simply don't know our every antecedent and neither does anyone else.
TreeLuvBurdpu 1 year ago
The only salvation for mankind: a stable island.
TreeLuvBurdpu 1 year ago
Simple reason why the movie ends like that - It is a way to make it easier and desirable for the people to accept DEATH with joy so that people can be prepared for the horrific fruits of our stupidity we are about to witness.
5m1nutes 1 year ago
@Hootons yes it is very complicated and to tell you the truth i have no idea why were the only intelligent ones on the planet. thats a very hard question to answer. but just because we cant explain something doesnt mean we should act irrationaly by saying "its because of some being or force in the galaxy." or smoething like that. maybe one day we'll know..
frikodian 1 year ago
this is the largest missunderstanding of the show Lost I have ever seen. You are truly a tedious dumbshit to be able to pull this out of such a faith oriented show
TheTeamMaverick 1 year ago
@Hootons yes, more so. i think its more probable than some being making us out of dirt or whatever it was suppose to be..
frikodian 1 year ago
unbelievable what some guys call "philosophical". this guy has no idea what he is talking about... wonder if he has ever seen one episode...
akasha4theworld 1 year ago
speaking of irrationality i just found out that my aunt doesnt have cancer any more just gone no trace of it left. which is great of course except that now everyone one thinks...any one the answer? yes! GOD made it magiclly disapear! which for us racional human biengs is just CRAZY! oh yes some being in the sky made aunts cancer go bye bye. its childish the way they think. and to top it all off im the crazy one for not beliving in that magic man in the sky..myhead hurts just trying 2 think likem
frikodian 1 year ago
i enjoyed this review more than i enjoyed lost. i did quit watching after 2.5 seasons of Lost because i lost faith in the writers ability to explain all the cliffhangers. i think this philosophical review is more an insight into you as the reviewer. and i think you say some really important things and make great points.
billyjay 1 year ago
LOST was sooooo drawn out scene by scene with deliberate cuts and non sequiters that I LOST interest in it within 3 episodes - so glad - 6 series later it ended and I was FREE of not caring one way or another!
DragonYearJoji 1 year ago
The watching of broadcast TV is irrational in and of itself
BenettFreeman 1 year ago
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frodothefoundless 1 year ago
Dude, I agree partly with you... Firstly, the guys that made Lost, actually fed the audience with a load of rubbish, followed by a big question mark by the end of every episode. Secondly, I don't believe that you need to be depressed to become mysticist. In my opinion, most people that are mysticist are actually simpletons, they think in a linear way and they're not at all depressed, for they ensure themselves of a future salvation... The depressed people are usually the ones that know...
Alkinoos7 1 year ago
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rusH1023 1 year ago
@rusH1023 All good! non taken. Any debate is good debate and hope I didn't sound too grouchy. Any ideas why the owner of this page keeps deleting our on topic conversation?
frodothefoundless 1 year ago
@frodothefoundless
I have no idea. Curious!
rusH1023 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
LIAR...
deficiency code. the least powerful get the least, dog eat dog..... AT
nettledned 1 year ago
what stops people like this connecting the dots is ego.
nettledned 1 year ago
If the Google/Verizon merge happens, or something of that nature happens, YOU will be in the slow lane, or the NO lane. That's actually a compliment. Rationality will be in the slow lane struggling to survive, as it does in every facet of our society. Continue posting. I love listening to other people that actually think.
000MrJwright 1 year ago
i think the world is becoming very rational
INS14466 1 year ago
I agree with him that the world will come to its senses eventually, whatever that might mean exactly (it seems like we tend to think that our current science is some form of absolute Truth, just like religion claims to be). Humans have a way of building something better once our old ways fail. And with the rate at which things change these days as compared to throughout history, I think there’s reason to be optimistic, even if only to help us avoid a self-fulfilling prophecy.
SarahM103 1 year ago
да уж
kavazaka 1 year ago
....As much as I admire your passionate and well constructed arguments I feel somehow that, to borrow on your reasoning, we are at risk of throwing the abused baby of mysticism out with the muddied water of superstition. Let us not make the same mistake with our science as our religions have made with spirituality : )
frodothefoundless 1 year ago
@frodothefoundless
How is one distinguishable from the other? Are you the type of person who says, "I'm not religious, but I AM very spiritual?"
rusH1023 1 year ago
@rusH1023
1 second ago
its just an opinion but the way I see it is as follows. I am spiritual in as much as I believe there is some deeper part of us that can be developed/reached, and that we are all part of some larger consiousness than simply ourselves. Call this god, the ID, gaia, ecology- pick your metaphor. I choose to call it spirituality.
frodothefoundless 1 year ago
@frodothefoundless stop picking metaphors and names and judging and just close your eyes. the truth aint out there. it is in you. go to the other side of the movie.
MrStacko83 1 year ago
@rusH1023 how this is distinguished from (organised) religion, is that a defining characteristic (again just as I see it) of religion is that they all claim to offer the truth, the only truth, and the one true truth. God is defined in their books alongside the only way to know god. Any deviation from this dogmatic view is considered heresy with risk of damnation...Can you now see how this differs from the searching/questioning definition of spirituality I gave above? yes I AM that type of person
frodothefoundless 1 year ago
@frodothefoundless
OK, just curious. No offense. Many people use that same sentence to explain a very petty, less-reasoned description of their beliefs.
rusH1023 1 year ago
....Current conventional science asks us to consider some pretty wacky stuff as it is, and its operation requires the reappraisal of existing dogma in light of new evidence. There is much in the realms of mind and the seeming interconnectedness of all matter that science as yet has no real answers for....
frodothefoundless 1 year ago
I has been said that any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic, is it therefore too much to consider that any magic sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from technology? What I mean by this is that when you look deeply enough into mysticism it seems to be pointing towards an understanding of the mechanics of the universe that as yet our science has no framework for, and thus no language to explain.....
frodothefoundless 1 year ago
I am finding that rationality and feeling (mysticism) lead to exactly the same answers in the end. You just have to dig deep enough and thus break many layers of superficiality to get to it.
Try not to dismiss what you don't understand. That is the height of irrationality in my book ;)
Again, other than this disagreement, I love your work.
MrNarchya 1 year ago
I still love your work and agree with 95% of what you say. The only thing that is irrational about your approach, is the fact that you dismiss God as being irrational. True, religion is pure bullshit, or rather, has been perverted in to pure bullshit, and the same is happening with New Age stuff. They are traps for you to start believing in, instead of finding the answers from within, where God truly is. I think you are more in tune with God than you would care to admit Stefan ;). Anyway, +++
MrNarchya 1 year ago
Mysticism makes a good entertaining show for a short while. On all other terms possible, mysticism is retarded. HAHA
TheJovanist 1 year ago
Irrationality rules the world while reason relentlessly struggles against stupidity, which was created by irrational thought
sano0311 1 year ago 8
@sano0311 Thank you, very good way of putting it... :)
stefbot 1 year ago
@sano0311 what is the last episode? seson 6 what episode?
buneaalexpetru 1 year ago
@buneaalexpetru S6 ep. 17
hulu.com/watch/151655/lost-the-end
sano0311 1 year ago
@sano0311 JJ abrams despised gilligans island and originally made lost as a form of purgatory/hell from which there was no escape
Jack was supposed to die in the first episode
the writers of ABC just paused and said it had to be made into a redemption story.
so that's what happened.
vtran31 4 months ago
Respond to this video...
To me the island embodies all your hopes and dreams, which u use to draw strength to be better (the water ritual for stewardship of the island was a powerful metaphor)
I think hugo is doing just fine running the irrational island with his number 2
vtran31 4 months ago
I didn't object too much for the mysticism in LOST, as it actually only made the mysteries more absorbing, but to conclude the story without at least providing reasonable explanations for its mysteries and instead spoon-feeding completely superstitious answer (if any) was disappointing to everyone. The public as a whole agrees that supernatural explanations are an unsatisfactory solution to a mystery. Religiosity et al doesn't make people irrational, it makes them self-censoring in their use.
RafaelEnvoy 1 year ago
between 05:00 and 08:50, you have just described me 6 years ago, before I saw the light of philosophy. Amazing how circular and global rationality is.
jojofulkrum 1 year ago
Hey Stefan, Jay P Hailey Here. I think you identified some of the conflict - even so - if you assume for the sake of fiction that the Island does have previously unknown abilities to change people - even so that doesn't rationally imply any of the rest of the points of the story.
The Basic plot of Lost was about Faith Versus Reason - and shows the post modern (English Lit) dismissal for the rational.
I'd have done it differently, myself.
jayphailey 1 year ago
You have such a bias view of the show. It's almost as if you did not see the whole series. The island did heal Locke, as well as giving special abilities to other characters on the show, or blessings. Like surfmadpig said, it's a balance of both that lost was trying to get through to the viewers. There is plenty of Christian metaphoric traits the plot has. I'm not talking about the religion everybody has polluted and corrupted, I'm talking about the real message of love for humanity from Jesus.
deftonesfanatf 1 year ago
You abused you child into believing in Santa?
brettenator 1 year ago
maybe fantasy is just more entertaining than realistic, normal, reasonable, and down to earth storyline. I was drawn to the reasonable side of things but realized quickly that it isn't worth my time to sit and watch a show an hour a week to watch a realistic plot unfold. I'm not religious but it made it more interesting to watch and I'm sure everyone involved in writing it saw it that was too and just wanted to make more money. I'd just stop digging that deep. money. that's all it was.
grenzow69 1 year ago
@grenzow69 way*
grenzow69 1 year ago
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high3nd 1 year ago
I agree with most. Thanks for going a bit beyond the obvious.
What bothers me is that the show promotes religion, by letting the religious path be the right one. I think that is a very dangerous message - especially today...
OperationBaboon 1 year ago
@OperationBaboon How is promoting religion a bad thing? Can you explain that further?
ReconisTribe 1 year ago
@ReconisTribe If you don't mind, I will make a video to answer that... It is a little bit complicated and too much for this little box ^^
So here's the vid:
Sorry that it turned out to be 3 parts, but it is rather complex ;)
OperationBaboon 1 year ago
@ReconisTribe Can't post the Link... *grrr*
It's called "Vid-Answer - Why promoting religion is a bad thing 1/3"
OperationBaboon 1 year ago
and most of it is actually in my original video response... ^^
OperationBaboon 1 year ago
@OperationBaboon The entire purpose of religion is to promote morality. To promote good actions toward our fellow man. This guy in the video missed the entire point of Lost, which is kinda sad for him. You need both science and faith, together. Jack and John each had the opposite problem.
Some of the greatest proponents of reason throughout history have been men of faith as well. Take Thomas Jefferson for example, or even John Locke who recognized the importance of religion.
ReconisTribe 1 year ago
@ReconisTribe faith and religion may seem close but are two entirely different things. Faith is the basic of hope and the drive for a better reality. Religion just (ab)uses that drive in us to power its motives. Religion is archaic and as long as we can't grow out of it, there will be no future for humankind.
And religion does the quite opposite of promoting mortality. It sells fake immortality as incentive. And you need no religion to do good to your next, just compassion.
OperationBaboon 1 year ago
@OperationBaboon Yeah I pretty much agree with everything you said but I think you misunderstand my definition of religion. Read up on Leo Tolstoy's philosophy, or just read the short story "The Death of Ivan Ilyich" by Tolstoy. With Darwin came a lot of problems, for one we are essentially machines programed by our genes, so intelligence/reason/soul don't exist. Tolstoy tried to solve this by saying we can achieve meaning and value by connecting to the 'infinite' or by a religious experience.
ReconisTribe 1 year ago
@ReconisTribe I take it a bit further then Tolstoy and say that the genetic imprint to evolve - which is motivator #1 - is turned into spirituality by our brain chemistry to accommodate us, to make sense of this inner urge we cannot grasp.
But there is no need to go all superstitious - spirituality and meaning can do very well without religion.
At one point, where spirituality does not cut it anymore, most brains get into this inner conflict, until you realize, that a conscious brain can choose.
OperationBaboon 1 year ago
@OperationBaboon Right I mean we kinda already covered that. We are simply sacs of chemicals controlled by or DNA. We are nothing more than moving molecules. Basically the same thing you just said. The point is, without some sort of connection to the infinite aka 'religion' there can be no values or meaning in life. Any meaning you make of it in the finite world is simply the chemical reactions in your brain. And no, according to Darwin we don't make choices at all, there is no free will.
ReconisTribe 1 year ago
@ReconisTribe which is why a finite answer will not satisfy us for some time.
Just because we don't need superstitious and make-believe stories to see the connection to the universe, does not mean it is not there.
There are several ways to interpret the connection. And as always, it is us who create meaning, as we create the universe.
Yes, your life is insignificant on the galactic scale, but to YOU it matters. And that should be the basis of your meaning of life. It up to you from there...
OperationBaboon 1 year ago
@OperationBaboon Does the value you assign life exist after you die? Also I think I covered pretty well why we cannot create any values or meaning. But just because we cannot create any values, does not mean we cannot accept death and appreciate all the finite things.
Did we "create" the universe? Not so sure about that.
What 'connection' to the universe do we have other than the fact that we are all made of the same stuff? Not sure where you are going with that.
ReconisTribe 1 year ago
@ReconisTribe very much so. Actually my personal life's value is based on a very universal value and believe me, it not only makes more sense, it is far more fulfilling then those of religion and other ideologies.
We are the only ones that create value and meaning. We might not have startest the process, but we create the universe as we look at it, define and measure it. We give it meaning. We are like neurons, converting energy and making sense of things.
But we might wanna take this elsewhere?
OperationBaboon 1 year ago
@OperationBaboon Ok I thought you meant the literal physical universe.
I think the views you have are fine. The only point I am trying to make really is that pure materialism doesn’t leave any room for values of any kind and doesn’t attempt to come to any moral conclusions.You seem like a classic atheist existentialist and even Camus himself thought true religion was a good thing, so I guess I'm not really sure why you dislike religion so much.
ReconisTribe 1 year ago
@ReconisTribe I would never consider myself a real atheist. But then again, I don't likes labeling in general.
The reason why I don't like religion is quiet simple: It's bad for us. The harm is causes as an obsolete social technology are by far outweighing the benefits. Especially because you can get these benefits without the drawbacks and without religion.
Religion creates a common reality. Good for creating big tribes, bad for a modern diverse and scientific world without borders.
OperationBaboon 1 year ago
@OperationBaboon Also I think my main point about Lost in general is that it seems to support and showcase almost all modern philosophies and while in the end it did go more a Tolstoy route, I don’t think it is invalidating any of the other options. I mean someone might say that the entire sideways timeline was merely a dream or something that jack had as he was dying or something. You don't have to believe in an infinite to like the show.
ReconisTribe 1 year ago
@ReconisTribe It still instills the possibility of afterlife. Any sort of afterlife is just fear of death and very archaic. Today we can concentrate on not dying. We are likely to see immortality ourself. What happens to afterlife then?
Religion is just not fitting for our times. We could combine them and form a sort of spiritual guide like the first theosophic society tried to create. It is time for reasoning and knowledge instead of believes.
OperationBaboon 1 year ago
@OperationBaboon You probably already know this, so sorry if this is redundant, but Camus did think that the ideas of an afterlife, or of a God were absurd. But he also thought that the true honest atheist and the true honest religious person were both working toward the same goal: that of fighting the endless struggle against evil. So in that sense he did like religion and it's place in society. Hell even Freud thought religion had a purpose.
ReconisTribe 1 year ago
@ReconisTribe In those times you did not loudly proclaim atheism and I am sure they did not have such insight in what religion causes on a global scale. Aside from that, it takes people time to grow out of old systems, including the smartest people.
Even morality can be understood and defined scientifically today, without risk of subjective and dogmatic realities interfering with the answers.
I am a philosopher and my mind stays open, but I have seen a new light and it is brighter then gods...
OperationBaboon 1 year ago
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ReconisTribe 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@OperationBaboon Haha I don't think you have even answered a single of my questions directly. Bravo. Based on this long conversation we have had I am now thoroughly convinced you have no philosophical background whatsoever. Instead of debating the issues you continue the same rant over and over.Good day sir.
ReconisTribe 1 year ago
"Self contradictory in it's universalization" does not make a subject sterile, just illogical. Nor does violence seek out children. It is simply most effective on the weakest. You breeders think everyone wants your child. Violence does not have a personal vendetta against children. In fact it is not a person at all.
msjesjames 1 year ago
Mysticism and violence are sterile? as in infertile? as in unable to produce? Hmmm? I am sorry but if that were true, would there be a need to disprove, discount or avoid the unproductive. Nothing is inert. Slow and unable to prove it's worth, yes, but not unyielding. All things have an effect. Are you sure you don't want to add a qualitative word to those statements.
msjesjames 1 year ago
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"Self contradictory in it's universalization" does not make a subject sterile, just illogical. Nor does violence seek out children. It is simply most effective on the weakest. You breeders think everyone wants your child. Violence does not have a personal vendetta against children. In fact it is not a person at all.
msjesjames 1 year ago
Stefan, mysticism and violence doesn't hurt people. People hurt people.
Why is an intelligent man watching an idiot box anyway? As far as end goals and destinations go, wouldn't time be better spent getting off the monorail and jumping on a track with a lil more to explore
msjesjames 1 year ago
You already have such a busy overthinking schedule. What possessed you to open up a spot for Lost?
rivenrock 1 year ago
I think the show was an Ashton Kutcher (sp?) production. I definitely got punk'd.
rmcc0002 1 year ago
Egotistical and condescending. It's like you didn't watch or understand the show at all, but enjoy the sound of your own voice quite a lot.
IkeaPasta 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
save us the hyperbole regarding those not in your 'elite group' please
brettenator 1 year ago
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brettenator 1 year ago
11:29 give my daughter a box, she'll make a fort. =D
CleanHappyGlock 1 year ago
Did you even watch the show at all? Your grandstanding nature is unbearable, all with some typical arguments from a Philosophy 101 class. What rational evidence is there to believe that a guy who fell eight stories out of a window is paralyzed because of any psychosomatic reasons? The "mystical" elements were there and Locke was the first to understand them because he was healed. Locke was right, and they all came around in the end. Its fiction! So the mystical stuff can be real! Jeez.
jocam000 1 year ago
@jocam000 It seems as though you've completely missed Stef's points here. Of course it's fiction - what he's attempting is an analysis of what the writers of the show meant to convey to viewers through the use of symbology and mythology.
eulercircles 1 year ago
Shut up and fuck off. Knobhead. Know nothing know all!
thebionicguy 1 year ago
I think you've let your personal thoughts on reason vs. faith influence your reading of Lost. at the beginning of the series, it was clear that the scientist, the man of reason, was a moron - and he remained one until he let a healthy dose of spirituality invade his life. on the other hand, Locke, who believed in faith too much, was taken advantage of. What LOST suggests is a healthy balance of the two. and that's not bad at all.
surfmadpig 1 year ago 2
@surfmadpig Definitely! Both Locke and Eko, the two most faithful people on the island, were taken advantage of because of their faith. But they were still right!
jocam000 1 year ago
@surfmadpig Yes, it's clear that the man of reason was a moron (self-contradictory as that may be), and that's the whole point. This echoes the sentiment of the general public: They value faith more than reason (and even think rational people are 'morons' because they don't understand reason), and that's why the writers made the show go as it did. You're forgetting that in the end the mystical crap turned out to be right, whether or not Locke 'believed too much'.
eulercircles 1 year ago
@surfmadpig I honestly couldn't have put it better and I also think stefbot has some good points, he has a very well developed view on reason and faith, but he's to personally absorbed by this that he hasn't chosen to approach LOST with a more open mind. He's to narrow minded to see things more than they are to him. Shame.
WaldronicTomotron 1 year ago
Excellent.
“You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. Dogs do not ritually urinate in the hope of persuading heaven to do the same and send down rain. Asses do not bray a liturgy to cloudless skies. Nor do cats attempt, by abstinence from cat's meat, to wheedle the feline spirits into benevolence. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, quite intelligent enough.”
MsTerrorDome 1 year ago 2
Bloody hell!
Jamieoo77 1 year ago
eh... what?
PepperChopJohn 1 year ago 2
@PepperChopJohn AMERICANS....cannot look pass their hamburgers and sarah palin =/
daft9punk 1 year ago
thanks for your insight, it is the best and most reasonable explanation for the story.
mustafaTHEmujaheddin 1 year ago
I think it was pretty realistic that to stop pushing the button had some consequence. It will not be easy for the world to stop pushing that button, and it will not be without consequence, But when they stopped pushing the button, eventually what happened was that the church (or hatch) turned into a hole, and the other church Ecko and Charlie where building was never finished. So, jeej for us atheïsts
Rikdewinter 1 year ago
Religion is the most powerful threat of all, that's why it works, and until people learn that being ration, logical, and scientific, is the far kinder alternative to live in fear of an unknown and all powerful force that will make our souls miserable for the rest of eternity unless we satisfy him by profiting those behind the institutions that sustain it...
Is difficult for someone who has been threatened and abused all his life to just let go, and stop following that pattern because of fear.
PollockQT 1 year ago
I consider myself a very critical an opinionated person, and the only criticism I have to your critic is, ironically having none...
I was considering watching the whole show just so that I could break it down philosophically in the sense of, as you said, how the writers disappointingly made the right choice by taking the show towards mysticism instead of rationalism, because sadly enough, it delivered the right message the majority of fans were hoping for.
After two of your videos, I'm a fan.
PollockQT 1 year ago
wow... i am not in the US so i had no idea what Stef was talking about till somewhere close to the end he mentioned that it was about some movie
I have enjoyed never the less :)
quote: no child believes that violence is bad but people should get medals for murder in war in the same time. <-- so true
alennna 1 year ago
Great video my friend
SeasonLost 1 year ago
I'd love to hear what you think of Stargate. The 3 series, not the movie.
moshe88 1 year ago
The best interpretation of LOST I've heard so far. Awesome awesome job stef
HigherPlanes 1 year ago
Would you consider doing an analysis of the show Heroes ?
stratcatavarious 1 year ago
Ha Ha i like this . It just goes to show that everything can be looked at in a philosophical manner .
ThePhilosophicalMind 1 year ago 2
I like these videos where a popular movie or show is analyzed. They say something about our culture and our time. I play around with analyzing things too, but I seldom share my thoughts or conclusions because people around me usually tell me I "think too much" and "it's just a show, shut up and enjoy it". Anyway, thanks for an interesting video. I stopped watching Lost after some time because I couldn't stand the drama and the pointless things happening.
Zerafinel 1 year ago
Although you draw up some interesting similarities between god fearing society you are missing a big point. The properties of the island were not of an unexplainable nature and the focus was on science to explain them. The dharma initiative had their research stations setup specifically to study the phenomena scientifically. I agree lost put a lot of emphasis on mysticism especially at the end, but the show has now ended with them never having attempted to offload the mystery onto a deity.
serialsoft 1 year ago
its TV, who watches TV now days?
sorry, but this is just silly.
who cares.
FuneralFragz 1 year ago
I don't know if you reply to comments here or not.
Would you describe Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle as Lost in which rationality "wins?" The story has many parallels: the karass, themes of fate, an island with a world destroying force, mysticism which purports to explain everything, etc. Yet the mysticism in Cat's Cradle is like a nice practical joke, whereas in Lost it is very real.
gwrallen 1 year ago
TV is a waste of time, mostly. I haven't owned one in about 3 years, and don't miss it at all.
pretorious700 1 year ago
The world is better understood if you move beyond your average interlect and laborious metaphors, Raise your conciousness and neutralise your skeptacism for everything that you percieve through your beady little eyeballs. An interesting fact is that the world we see around us 0.05% of all known energy that surrounds and binds us. Of that 0.05% maybe you understand and percieve 10% of this. OPEN YOUR MIND. I'm sorry but your words fall hollow after reading great works of Dante, Milton and Blake.
digitallabzmusic 1 year ago
So basically Lost is a bad knock off of 'The Lord of the Flies' ... i,e. There is no new talent or ideas coming out of the proletariat.
I have a feeling the book is better than bastardized copy, no? lol
Nexus2Eden 1 year ago
What I got from Lost is that all wizard-type characters (Others, Ben, Alpert, Jacob) were one after another debunked as small pitiful characters.
Jack's actions, killing the possesed Locke & fixing up the light, seem rational enough to me. I mean evidence-based rationality such as you're standing on a island in blisful conditions, light goes off, earthquakes start. Whats the rational thing to do? Fix that light-sucker up.
newbraindead 1 year ago
Reason ain't all it's cracked up to be. Folks come up with all kinds of reasons for doin' the things, or, if they think it through and it all comes crashing down, they'll say, "It seemed reasonable at the time"
We can achieve non-violence through reason, bit a more direct approach is empathy and compassion. If we look at all our technologies and rational management schemes we see an abundance of rational thought...but to what end?
kokopelli314 1 year ago
@kokopelli314 What you are describing is not "reason", it's "rationalization"....There's a huge difference.
pretorious700 1 year ago
@pretorious700
I'm not just talking about post-hoc rationalizations. I'm referring to rational management schemes that appear reasonable given a particular set of perceptions and assumptions. Scientific management of the east coast cod stocks and their subsequent demise is a perfect example of a failure of reason. Stef would likely say "Blame the State", but that's beside the point. Reason is only one of our many faculties and can be misapplied.
kokopelli314 1 year ago
rationality will tear us apart in the end
thewirrow 1 year ago
@thewirrow explain
capgains 1 year ago
@thewirrow that must seriously be the most retarded thing i have ever heard. I cant believe all these people comment saying things like we shouldn't use reason, its like saying we shouldn't be smart.
christelesio 1 year ago
@christelesio you can rationalise what the stories you senses tell you. but 'rationalisation' is a new religion, one that cannot tackle our consciousness..and will equate the miserable world of religion with our true nature of imagination and enchantment. imagination IS the human existence itself.. and i do not need to be an unreasonable religious maniac to understand this. this division of science vs religion.. as if that is all there is... is the most retarded thing IVE ever heard
thewirrow 1 year ago
@thewirrow you can also imagine things that make sense and can help us in the reality we live in, as in inventing new technologies and such, instead of magical beings.
christelesio 1 year ago
@christelesio i dont think new technologies are the means to a better future. i dont know what kind of technologies ur imagining.. but i think its all about what you believe to be at the core of all the evils in the world. and i dont think that the core is lack of 'rationality'. i put that in quotes because i have no beef with using reason.. everything i believe can be reasoned.. but 'rationality' has become a modern religion. one that also seems to equate philosophy with scientific evidence
thewirrow 1 year ago
@thewirrow ....how to reason with someone unreasonable...
christelesio 1 year ago
@christelesio and there was absolutely nothing 'unreasonable' about the lost finale. it was perfect
thewirrow 1 year ago
It was perfect, perfect television. I'm not arguing that it sucked or anything :)
christelesio 1 year ago
ha ha if something is chaotic enough someone will rationalize it into something
and of course it will reflect just how the perciever thinks
a bit of 'thinker and prover' (coined by RAWilson) there, methinks
that's not to say your analysis isn't 100%correct of course
perception is a 2 way street
'swhat quantum physics is all about
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natmanprime 1 year ago
I know its just a story but why would the rational and reasonable man have to die; if rationalism and reason are all we need why wasn't it enough for him? I was reminded of the true story of the man who found himself stranded on an arctic island and to survive mentally he made up a companion for himself and all sorts of rituals which kept him alive until help came the following Spring.
emmazedbend 1 year ago
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emmazedbend 1 year ago
This guy Stef has been working away on my habitual mysticism for a year or so, and I'm starting to reform, hopefully not from some kind of smokemonster, but from a type of mystic button-pusher.
Reform into? I wonder - I wonder what a completely rational version of myself would look like.
I actually know that only the tips of our psychological icebergs are rational, but just to get that rational part to be fully rational, that would be a fine challenge.
not2tees 1 year ago
I would like nothing more than to hear your review. But I have never seen the show, I don't want to miss any surprises. :)
After I watch from season one, this will be the next thing I do. :)
IterProLibertasV 1 year ago
great points... to claim a religion or nationality! is proof that you have been brutalized...
Th3Wab3 1 year ago
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Th3Wab3 1 year ago