Roughly 5000 committed suicide. Not because of Hitler's death but because they could not face loosing everything and being deported into an uncertain future. Meanwhile communist agitators had spread out from the cities and were murdering people randomly. Among those dragged into camps, crushed into cattle wagons, babies, children, old people or anyone sick did not make ot. About 200 000.
I was not going to contribute any more as the tone of replies is so moronic. If you were an academic historian and I am, you would know that millions of Germans CIViLIANS were put to death or died as refugees from the Russians, Poles and Czechs because it was convenient to say they were all Nazi criminals, down to the last baby. That is not to excuse Nazi criminals, but one wrong on top of another does not make things right.
The Czechs were sold down the river by France and Britain.By March of 1939, the country was falling apart and President Hacha invited the Germans into the country to restore order.I didn't know that Hitler was so warmly received by the local population.
@villanovakid84 You´re terribly wrong. Only Sudeten Germans received Hitler and Co. warmly. Hácha tried to save as many lives as he could - he was threatened by bombing of Prague and other czech cities by Luftwafe (no doubt they would do that). What else he should´ve done with no foreign support? And no, even the weakened Czechoslovakia didn´t need any help "to restore order". CS didn´t need ANY fucking german influence or "support".
@svoba4af Thanks for your response and clarification on this subject. Since you are a Czech, I will defer to your knowledge on this matter.The Czech Republic is a very nice country.
@villanovakid84 Thank you, at least one person who doesn´t think I´m a victim of communist propaganda (when I´m 25). As most of my fellow citizens I have nothing against todays Germany although they´re not our favorite neighbours, of course. But I really hate the way they´re trying to rewrite history with the help of american movies like The Reader. My ancestors were no angels but Czechs don´t deserve to be insulted by some misquiged neonazis here on YT (I don´t mean you) :/
@svoba4af Your welcome, I can certainly understand how you feel since Germany under Hitler brought great pain to your country. My best memory visiting your country was going to Konopiste Castle, the tour guide was so enthusiastic.
@villanovakid84 Well, I´ve been to Konopiště once and I really like this castle, but we´ve got even better ones :) I believe you found Czechia so nice because it´s so different from the tropical paradise you live on. Medieval castles, forests and local beer versus white sandy beaches, palms and pina colada :D
@svoba4af Your people shot my great grandparents in the head in Freudenthal, stole their property and expelled the rest of my family> When does your country exaime its consciencious?
@trevlacme First of all - learn the czech name of the city, it lies in Czechia and i don´t call any city in Germany or US by their czech names. Second of all - my grandparents did some harm to your grandparents? They never told me :D Third of all - youd should learn something about your grandparents. Maybe they were nazi supporters which they supposedly were when the came from Sudetenland. I would feel ashamed if post-war Germany did not help so many nazis to flee to Argentina.
@trevlacme OK, your origin is clear now :D Anyway, you expect some historical justice for you supposedly innocent grandparents. You can never have something like that. Millions of people had died and many of their murderers, nazis or communists, lived happily to see their grandchildren - and nobody gave a shit. It´s too late now.
@svoba4af Czech scum! Slovaks know you too well. Czechs are facist terrorist who murdered and repressed the Slovaks, Germans, Hungarians and Ruthemians in their fake country. Today Czechs pretend to be victims and forget they owe all to Germans, Prag is a German city, Bohemia an Austrian province
I am a Pan-European nationalist and some of these comments where Europeans insult other Europeans honestly make me a little sad. I know that European nations have harmed other European nations in the past but I believe that it is time that we forgive one another and look to the future. Look at the statistics Europe is dying most of the nations with the lowest birthrates are European, united we will find a suitable policy for Europe and ensure that it does not die.
Because these slavic bastards want to re-establish their communist states so they can destroy the western civilization. They want to please their jewish masters.
@ss90ss444 I know a number of Slavic people who despise communism to its end. I know that people in Finland have issues with Russian communists but I think that it is important to not make broad generalizations about a huge group of Europeans. Take care and please do not think that all Slavic people are commie lovers.
@ss90ss444 Come to Western Ukraine and ask them what they think of Stalin or the USSR or communism in General. beside there are commie lovers in all nations. even your nation of Finland has a party called "Communist Party of Finland'' does not mean that any European anti-communist should insult the Finnish people in general because of that party.
@ss90ss444 You know very little of history.. Marxism was invented in Germany. Das Kapital was written in German. Lenin was a German spy who was sitting in his Swiss exile until German generals put him on train and sent him to Russia. Russians opposed communism - in the bloody civil war they lost millions of lives. Not like the Germans who have chosen Nazi party in free democratic elections, and they did not do ANYTHING to stop the NAzis. Because they like NAzis...
@IustitiaPax Of course it wasn`t, Skoda manufactures had industrial capacity like a half of the whole British industry. German tanks were "silly" then.
@ss90ss444 Konrad Henlein's mother was ethnic Czech, but spoke German at home. Arthur Zajtích was half-Czech indeed. They identified with German nationality though. More than Austrian Tyrolese monarchists. More than 100 % German Swiss farmers. It is a question of self-identification. It is not self-hate. The Nazis never stated they hated Czechs. 100,000s of Czechs were in Fascist or Nazi organisations. Like Czech Fascist Youth.
@IustitiaPax You are the ultimate asshole.Nazis never stated they hated Czechs.hahaha.Did you ever hear the limping dwarf Goebbels?You do not know anything, really.In the Protectorate there was only one organization "National conviviality"(Národní souručenství).Lie - it belongs to you fascists.
@alesio1971 No, many other organizations existed, like České fašistické mládeže. Svatý Václav Rota (vojenský dobrovolník). SS sdružení v českém Slezsku. This is just nonsense what you state. Czech culture and Czech nation were never attacked or destined for destruction. That is just post-war Beneš propaganda and pro-Soviet propaganda. If you do not see that, you are blind. Fascism only existed in Italy, Slovakia and Bulgaria by the way. Národní socialismus není nutně fašista.
@IustitiaPax Sdružení sv.Václav existovalo i národní souručenství(NS),ale tam obyčejní lidi nebyli,jen ti co něco znamenali(podnikatelé,statkáři atd.) aby měli klid od němců(možná někteří kolaborovali),taktéž i v NS,ale většinou nosili odznaky otočené(SN),což znamenalo Smrt Němcům.České slezsko jste zabrali,takže tam žádní češi nebyli (zase lež) a vyhlazení čechů byla jen otázka času,kdo by vám vyráběl zbraně?Český lid platí za schopný a pracovitý(a odzbrojený),tak proč by jste plýtvali silou?
@ss90ss444 I do not understand, how you can know such names of "Czech whores" in the Jewish film industry. I never heard of this name. As for Czechs: the Czech people are a West Slavic people of culture and autonomy. One should never forget this or deny this. Of course the Kingdom of Bohemia and the Maggraviate of Moravia were (with Silesia) part of the Holy Roman Empire since 997 AD. But that does not exclude ethnic identity. The Ladin people, Slovenians and Rhaeto-Romans existed in it too.
@IustitiaPax Silesia becomed a part of HRE later, during the reign of Wenceslau II or John of Luxembourg. Diocese of Vratislavia remined under the archdiocese of Gniezno till XIXc however.
@MaximusProteus Silesia became a part of the Holy Roman Empire in 1146 AD already, nothing later. This is separated from the ecclesiastical province. Belgrad was under Constantinople too, but was ethnic Serb and Serbian kingdom, not part of the Byzantine Empire anymore....
@MaximusProteus Wladyslaw II the Exiled ruled Silesia back then. Already long before 1146 AD, did the Silesian dukes marry German wives and take in German farmers in their principalities though.
@MaximusProteus Ladislaus II the Exiled put his duchy in Silesia under the hierarchy and jurisdiction of the Holy Roman Emperor, his brother-in-law. HRE in 1169 secured the restitution of Silesia. Already in 1013, Otto III helped in founding the Diocese of Breslau. The connections are so old. Poland at that time was never a unified kingdom or country. And Bohemia and Lebus were not ethnic Polish either, nor was Silesia mostly.
@IustitiaPax Władysław was exiled, his rule unrecognised and he had no right to do it. Dukes of Silesia weren`t giving pledge to HRE, maybe Władysław, but not sucessors.
Already in 1000 A.D were founded archdiocese of Gniezno and several dioceses uder it, including Vratislavia, which was before under a missionary bishop Jordan, de facto directly dependent on Rome.
Poland was an unified Kingdom then, but it`s hard to speak about etchnicy back then.
@MaximusProteus All succesors of Ladislaus II the Exiled (der Vertriebene) were since 1169 AD feudal subjects of the Holy Roman Emperor and pledged allegiance to the Holy Roman Empire. This is a historical fact, but maybe Polish "education" denies is.
Wratislavia (Breslau) was created as a diocese under Gniezno with support of Otto III, Holy Roman Emperor. Poland was a fractionalized tribal federative state, with merely a duke as its head. Dukes do not head a unified kingdom.
@IustitiaPax I was asking for any source since you begun to talk about it since i can`t find anything more than Wenceslau II, will you tell me from which source i can 'educate' myselve about it?
You seems to not know what`s a "fractionalized tribal federative state", nor what the title of Dux stands for, not to mention the Rex and when Poland becomed a Kingdom. I highly recommend education.
If the Czechs had treated their minorities fairly pre WW2, instead of discriminating against them, particularly the Germans, Hitler would never had a chance.
@mozart1751 HItler and his criminal gang got to power in regular elections in Germany in 1933, NOT by Sudetengermans. Germans wanted to rule the world, thats why they voted for this individual that would in normal coutry be living on the edge of society. Hitler got a chance because the Germans gave him a chance...
I actually find the answers here very interesting, as they contribute to my research,
one day, when you have more information rather than believing in ex Communist mythology, you might remember what I have written here.
The Czechs need to confront their past like the Germans had to. They did not believe at first the Holocaust had happened but later fully acknowledged their guilt. Your great grandparents will know even if they choose to be silent.
Inspite of the high rating of the two Czech contributors, they do not know their own history because of communist distortion. The ministers representing 3.5 mill. Germans against 6.8 m Czechs, which was the ethnic set-up in Bohemia (not Slovakia), they never got anywhere. Benes thought they would just disappear into thin air and had to incite Czechs to violence, when he knew they would be defenceless. Russians had to defend Germans against the sadism of the Czech patriots. Read intern. experts
@mozart1751 Once again I ask you where did you read these bullshits. Russians had to defend Germans against Czechs? No, dude, when they came to Prague, Red Army made some killing and so did Czechs. BUT maybe you didn´t know that german soldiers made some massacres against czech civilians even after the 8th of May. It was fucking 1940´s. BTW You defend the rights of minorities against the rights of majority and minority should rule the country according to you. How logical...
Soldiers against soldiers In war is one thing. Czs just massacred civilians, no need to fight. Some Rn soldiers defended them from sadistic Cz mobs. For quick info google: Czechoslovakia, atrocities, German civilians, some of the literature is there too, also by Czech historians. The subject won't go away, even if it makes for uncomfortable reading..More and more people worldwide are researching it, and coming up with results different from the Communist version of Czech history
@mozart1751 First of all, you should know that learning about something from the internet is not a good idea, "scholar". Second of all, lot of crap happened during the war and after that, but if some russian soldiers defended Germans, it was just a rare exception. Learn more about fucking Red Army. That is not "communist propaganda" (which is your magical word). Third of all, not all historians are the best experts. ;)
@mozart1751 may be you should learn history better. Germans were the real masters in massacres of civilian, you should know that the biggest massacres were committed on civilians who had no means of defending themselves - Jews in Germany never had an army to defend themselves, the people in Lidice woke up one day and they were shot, transported to KZ, children gassed etc. etc. and many more examples all over Europe. What happened to Germans was just a slight echo of what they committed in past
@mozart1751 "The ministers representing 3.5 mill. Germans against 6.8 m Czechs, which was the ethnic set-up in Bohemia (not Slovakia), they never got anywhere." - for Germans obviously the only mode of coexistence with other nations is to rule over them... how typical Nazi ...
@mozart1751 I sort of like your point, after all the minorities should have equal rihgts, there is no reason why Czechs can only have 22 deputies in European parliament while the Germans have 99. This is a pure discrimination!!!!
German civilians never descended en masse on any groups of defenceless people in mixed areas in Nazi occupied countries (when they would have been in a position of strength) to beat people to death, hang them, burn them, rape them, murder their children etc., as happened large-scale in the Csl. after 1945.,German atrocities during the war were committed by people in uniform, that is the difference!
@mozart1751 Yes, of course, Germans got their army to run the highly organized murder undertaking. I find it more alarming if a whole nation choose a group of criminals, supports them 100% with NO EXCEPTION (of course, Geschwister Scholl, but they were only 2 in a nation of 80 millions !!!) TO THE VERY VERY END (the SS committed massacres on CZ civilians even in May 1945). After the spontaneous Kristallnacht Germans discovered high efficient killing by gas, no need to kill people in the streets
@mozart1751 of course you dont need to kill, burn etc. etc. people in the streets - this is too messy and inefficient for Germans minds -- if you can work them to death in KZ, use them for medical experiments, gas them using Cyklon B. You can even rob them of their bodies after death... ...I dont know any other country where a mass murder has become a real industry, just like making cars ....
@MvDrak Again, these acts were not due to civilians. They were organised by the German war machinery without the general public's knowledge. How come the Czechs retributionists could not differentate between thousands of ordinary folks, children and babies and those who committed war-crimes? The vile acts committed were comparable to the worst excesses reported from third world conflicts.
@mozart1751 the "German war machinery" was created and 100 % supported by Germans as a nation. "Without public knowledge"? did not the Germans know they are at war? And who would vote for such a disgusting character like Hitler. If I look at what the Germans have selected as their leaders with their criminal minds and uncultivated rude speeches and look at the pre-war Czechoslovak republic with MAsaryk and Benes I am proud to be Czech. Incredibly proud.
@mozart1751 Now I am really concerned that the Germans are blaming some abstract "war machine"... what if today, in the times of economic crisis, the Germans vote for some "war machine" again .... thanks God they are out of our country ...
@mozart1751 So - if we have sent the Germans to KZ, gas them, burn them in creamatoriums, everything of course using some "military machine" without public's knowledge - this wold in your eyes make as at least as "cultural" as Germans?
@MvDrak But the Germans have acknowledged their guilt! The Czechs are still in Communist induced denial which does not change the facts.
Read historian Jan Mlynarik, one of an increasing number of Czech-Slovak experts in the field who are wondering what happened to the conscience of their nation.
Being defensive or offensive about historical facts just devalues any argument I am signing off, so no more need to fly into a rage.
The Czechs did not expell all of the Sudetenland Germans...the ones who could prove that they were opposed to the union with Germany and that they had opposed the Nazi party(such as communists or Social Democrats)..were allowed to remain in Czechoslovakia.
Hitler had no right to go into Prague because it was not German speaking and had never been part of the German Empire. It had been part of the Holy Roman Empire ..but so had Holland and Belgium.
You are right. Prague was part of Austria-Hungary before WW1 which is basically the same as the German Empire since there is very little difference between germans and the austro-hungarians.
But Russia and Sweden have also been enemies of the german people. So it is only natural that Germany would support our independence.
Swedes looted and raped Germany during the Thirty Years' War, did they not.
Yes. But these slavic people are so useless. Name one great warrior of WW2 who was a czech. Sudeten germans on the other hand gave the world such great men as Otto Kittel and Kurt Knispel both who died in the war.
@ss90ss444 Czechs also delivered great nobility and saints (Sv. Vacláv, sv. Prokop). There is more in the world than warfare alone. Otto Skorzeny is of Czech ancestry too. The Slavic peoples had great warriors and strategists too. Peter the Great. Bogdan Chmielnicki. Or today, Polish-American geostrategist Zbigniew Brzezinski, who dominates US foreign policy and the Trilateral Commission with David Rockefeller. It is not all black and white. Please remain academic and objective!
@ss90ss444 ... Finns are useles. The best pilot of the Battle of Britain was Czech - Joseph Frantisek.
Muscovites were always on good terms with so called "Prussians" and than Germans, as well as with Austrians, they all created un-Holy Alliance and kept thier "enlighted" order over XIXc Europe.
@EdwardRommel The multi-ethnic monarchy of Austria-Hungary was not a purely ethnic German nation state, but a monarchy. The Czechs had cultural autonomy under the Habsburg rule, and all kinds of privileges. Far more than e.g. the Ladinese or Italians in South Tyrol and Trentino (Welschtirol, Welish Tyrol). The Protektorát was not per se an occupation regime. Most Czechs until 1944 were loyal to Dr. Emil Hácha.
True...but you will agree that German Austrians and Magyar hungarians held all the power in the Austro-Hungarian Empire....and that Slavs were second class citizens with no real power in either the austrian or the Hungarian parliaments.
If Austria-Hungary was so content..why did all the Slavs and Romanians declare their independence in 1918? Why were there riots in Vienna and Belgrade before WW1?
Why was there a high desertian rate with Slav troops in the AH army?
@EdwardRommel the Czechs, were talked into a minority complex by their own nationalist politicians. People with Czech names have always held high office in e.g pre 1918 Vienna and even now. Nationalism as an answer? What are the racial-cultural differences say between Czechs and Austrians, apart from the language? Can you define it? Re. things being fair: in politics it is always about power, that is why 6.8 million Czechs could not swing it all their own way in an Empire of 52 million.
@EdwardRommel The Czechs were in the majority in parliaments, where they dominated. So they were not suppressed or second class citizens. Of course Slovaks in linguistical policy of Magyarization were discriminated, but Czechs never were: German language was never imposed against the Czech language in the 19th century. On the contrary, Habsburgs encouraged Czech. Who is Karel Fürst von Schwarzenberg in your Czech cabinet?
I don't think Austria-Hungary had a parliament in Bohemia. It had two parliaments...one in Vienna controlled by Austrians...and one in Budapest controlled by magyars.
In AH only the Austrians and Magyars had any power.
The Habsburgs were more tolerant of their minorities than were the Prussians...but still the Slavs in AH did not have the same level of power or influence as Austrians and Magyars. That's why Archduke Franz Ferdinand wanted to institute "trialism" for slavs
@EdwardRommel Nonsense. All could obtain seats and votes. The Young Czechs (Jungtschechen) around Masaryk etc. etc. all obtained seats in the Reichstag in Wieden. But of course other minorities did not have the power to decide about Tyrol etc. They could obtain every form of cultural and linguistic autonomy though. After 1889, all Austrian officials (even those from Linz etc.) inside Bohemia had to be able to speak Czech too. And German. And Polish in Saybusch and Kraków.
@IustitiaPax LOL Saybusch? Austrians had different policyies indeed.... like a policy of antagonising and rising of nationalism amongst some nations, especially so called "Ukrainians". Even social conflicts between nobility and pesantry were good as for a reason to fight, for example in so called "Galician slaughter" when peasants (Masurians) were payed LITERALLY for the heads of noblemans (Poles).
Kraków was a quasi-free city state since the Vienna congresse until the Austrian takeover in 1846
In the German Reichstag it was one man one vote for any males over 25 years old...but that does not mean that the German 2nd Reich was a democracy because the Reichstag had no power to initiate legislation...it could only vote on legislation sent to it.
The real power in German Empire was the upper house...the Bundesrat...which was controlled by the Prussian King(German Kaiser).
So AH was most likely a very similar setup with no real democracy for Slavs.
@EdwardRommel Austria-Hungary was more of a democracy than 1919-1939 Poland or 1946-1991 Poland, or 1945-1991 Czechoslovakia. The Slavic "democracies" entirely discriminated and persecuted their German-speaking minorities. Austria-Hungary never did such things, and Slavic minorities had parliamentarians all over the Reichstag, which could initiate laws. To be approved by the Emperor. Like in Holland by the Queen today. Habsburg approved Slavic official languages.
It was not a sign of grace on the part of Austria-Hungary. They had to give autonomy to all, because I lived more than a dozen nations in the empire. Colossus with feet of clay. Tell me about the allegations against the Polish democracy. Know that in time of war, democracy is suspended. That is natural.
@IustitiaPax I beg you pardon ?! Poland 1919-39 was by every mean an egalitar democracy, which includes emancipation of women and equal status to every minority. Since 1926 were restricted some rights of nationalist or communist extremes.
This is completly untrue accusation which can be confiremd only in the German ministry of propaganda, but no neutral records says so. Every minority, inc. German, was represented in central and local institutions, no 'persecution' of Germans or Jews allowed.
@MaximusProteus That is probably, why in 1937 and 1938 Het Vaderland and other Jewish and liberal Dutch newspapers brought reports on Jews leaving Poland, on Józef Beck speaking of the solution of the Jewish Question in Poland, and on tens of thousands of German ethnic minority members fleeing from Poland into Germany and Slovakia and Lithuania. Poland was a corrupt regime back then, and very influenced after 1935 by British Freemasonry via Rydz-Smigly.
Oh you deny that germans were murdered, uh. So no germans lived in Danzig, Stettin and other places before WW2? All of those places were polish once Stalin gave them to Poland?
Ask your fucking russian animal brothers. They even will tell how the Red Army raped and murdered thousands of refugees who escaped from the areas Stalin gave to Poland after WW2.
Slavs can"t understand democracy. Their values are asiatic because they were under mongolian and turkish rule for hundreds of years. They only understand violence and war. That is why they idolize murderers like Benes and Stalin.
@ss90ss444 Sorry, but the Czechs were under Habsburg rule, under German-speaking nobility for over 500 years. The Polish people were under Prussia, Austria (Habsburg) and the Russian czars for centuries. Only cossacks and many Russians were for long times under Khanates, under Mongols and Turks. Serbs, Bulgarians, Bosniaks, Macedonians of course were under Turkish powerful violent domination. But not Czechs and Poles. I like Chopin, but not Bierut. I like Saint Wenceslas, not Benes.
@IustitiaPax you are terribly wrong Poland disappeared from the map not longer than 120 years but Polish nation was doing well. Only 2 years after the independence was returned to Poland they won Bolsheviks running to export theirs revolution to western Europe in 1920 .
@ss90ss444 ...and Germans idolized Hitler... I do not know personally any Polish in any generation who idolized Stalin. If you learn how CEE countries suffer because of Stalin you would mind your slanders.
@ss90ss444 The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation had a German Leitkultur, but was also a continuation (translatio imperii) of the ancient Roman Empire. It was a tolerant, multi-ethnic state, with French-speaking, Czech-speaking, Polish-speaking, Slovenian-speaking, Italian-speaking, Ladin-speaking, Danish-speaking minorities and principalities. Not even mentioning the Dutch language spoken. I do agree that until 1866 Prague had a German-speaking majority of citizens.
@IustitiaPax .... the rights of sucession are quite vague and rather wishful. HRE was not "tolerant" or whatever, it only needs to look at the activityies of the German margraves in Lusatia, in the "crusades" against Obodrites or Veleti, not to mention a massive slave trade, which for some reasons is a tabu for present historians. Not only pagans were being enslaved, but also christians.
@MaximusProteus The Holy Roman Empire of the German nation was indeed tolerant. You mean 11th century Wendish Crusade, in which even Czech princes participated. It has nothing to do with ethnicity, but with defeating the Slavic intrudors from the northeast. St. Otto of Bamberg, Apostle of Pomerania, stopped this crusade for its abuse. Lusatia was for parts part of the kingdom of Bohemia for a long time. Only Lower Lusatia was under Brandenburg...
@IustitiaPax I disagree, there was ongoing a massive slave trade, there are records even of catholic bishops about a slave trade with already baptisted people. Itrudors? These people were natives, Germans were intrudors with thier North, East or some other Marks. Margrave Gero 'Magnus' subjected Lusatia and of course captured many servs for trade. Than followed colonisation, so called "Ostsiedlung" and of course germanisation.
@IustitiaPax But of course there was, Moors in Al-Andalus were were pleased with eunuchs of "Saqualiba"... and not only eunuchs. Venice ran this busyness as well and of course the other states. Genoa for a very long time kept a colony in Kaffa on Crimea and Turks had alot of fun in harems, many strong arms to push thier fleet and so on...
The Czechs felt betrayed by the West for having to give Sudetenland to Germany.
But the Versailles Treaty was mainly based on Self-determination and common language...but I know why the VT did not give Sudetenland to Germany because the Czechs needed the mountain defenses and Sudetenland had economic ties to Czech.Rep.
Slovakia was pro-Nazi ...so that left only Bohemia-Moravia in March 1939..and to the Allies that was not worlth going to war over. They drew the line in Poland.
@nax70704 WW2. was started by the Treaty of Versailles. Ferdinand Foch (supreme commander of the Allied armies, 1918) said: "This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years". There was never instability of that size in Central Europe, than after 1921. This was totally unambiguous that the three monstrous artifical states (CzSk, YUG, Great-Romania) will burst apart. These three countries fell on 15 pieces under 90 years and Trianon's spirit poisons the countries' relation today likewise.
@jozefporta i feel foolish. all these years i blamed adolf for starting ww2. you know, all that talk about the german people needing"living space" and all that. now i actually find out that he had nothing what so ever to do with it. it was that damned treaty of versailles. forgive adolf, where ever you are.
@stardaddyo9 Yes, you are foolish. You devour the fable, from the evil Germans and you are satisfied with this. The cleverer people recognise that the stupid treaty embroiled Germany in misery and humiliated it, and prepared the ground for the populist extremes with this. Hardly with the passing of 10 years NSDAP obtained 38% of the vote. This could have been to avoid, if Fr. and GB. go to the fair direction in Versailles.
@jozefporta After the WW2. Germany (BRD) it was not crippled longer, but he received in the European Recovery Program. Which peace was the more beneficial to Europe according to you? Versailles, wich was paved the road to the WW2. or the Marshall Plan? Mad Adolf may have been a chancellor because of the folly of greedy French and English politicians. The extremes do not receive votes between normal circumstances, but the Allies in Versailles did not dictate normal conditions of peace.
Benes said he expected the minorities to assimilate, why should they want to become Czech? The Czechs did not want to become Germans under the Habsburgs. What is right for one side.......
Germans wanted Czechs, Poles, Slovenians to be assimilated in 'Austria' before founding of Czechoslovakia. Czech Germans did not have to learn Czech, it was optional! I know that from a Czech German person who could stay in Czechoslovakia as she was not a Nazi :)
The persistent comparisons with the Indians and Pakistanis in Britain are completely irrelevant, they arrived after the war and have the same rights as any other Brit. The Germans had been there a1000 years plus, just like the Czechs in the interior
yes, they have the same rights - unless they want to speak Indian to the authorites or wear burka... as a reaseacher you surely know that German was one of the official languages spoken even in parliament... ok, leave the Indians for now (they will surely speak for themselves in the future); why can't you finally setup a lasting peace with the Irish so that the bombs dont blow up in London? as a smart "minority expert" you can surely propose a solution for your own country .... or no?
Map of Czechoslovakia showing density of German minority.
Enlarge it and see where the Germans had 100% majority. in Csl. there were 3.5 million Germans mainly in Boh. Moravia, the Czechs numbered 6.8 Million. these are official census figures from Csl. Therefore pre 1945 every second person in what is now the Czech Republik was a German (every third, averaged out over Csl.)
Od 1945-1947, sudetští Němci (nevinných dětí, žen, starších osob v ceně) se stanou obětí genocidy českých, režie a schválen prezident Edvard Beneš (masový vrah). 300.000 nevinných německých civilistů v táborech nebo v masakrech, jako je město Ústí na Labi zabil. Zejména v táborech. Dokonce i sovětských vojáků v České zločiny šokován. Češi se musí přiznat svou vinu! Skvrna na českých dějin!
Sudetští Němci bohužel doplatili na to, že se spojili s Hitlerem. Věděli dobře co dělají a že na to nakonec doplatí. Dobrovolně se spojili s diktátorem. Jako vždy, nakonec trpěli nevinní.
Masové vraždy není "utrpení". Sudetští Němci a genocidy proti nevinným německé ženy a děti, není utrpení, ale vražda. Sudetští Němci nikdy zabila 300.000 lidí. Ale zločinci mají české sudetských Němců 300.000 zavražděných nevinných. V Německu Hitler, většina Čechů také lepší stravu, než v holandské okupace. Česká republika 1945 - 1949 masakry jsou zločiny proti lidskosti.
Nebudu s vámi polemizovat o počtech obětí, samozřejmě všichni víme o divokých odsunech a řádění samozvaných revolučních gard. Jistě vždycky na to doplatí nevinné oběti. Přejme si, aby se v budoucnosti nic podobného jako byla WWII neopakovalo.
Já jsem s vámi! Máte pravdu. Ale český národ a české státní, by měly německé historie a německé etnické ochrany kulturního dědictví, a Češi vyjadřují politování nad genocidy sudetských Němců. Dokonce i nacisté nebyli nikdy vymýceny nebo českých lidí zabitých v cestě českých Edvard Beneš a nacionalisty a komunisty sudetských Němců zavražděno 1945 - 1949. Kéž Bůh žehná království Čech a Moravy!
The number of deaths was estimated by the joint Czech-German team of historians to be around 19-30 thousands. There is no doubt that horrible atrocities happend and it really is, together with the German occupation and other wartime events that preceded it, one of the darkest moments in the country's history.
1. This Joint Czech-German Commission was a politically controlled commission. The Czech government did not allow higher numbers, and left-wing German politicians did not either. It was between 280,000 and 329,000 in reality. This was established by neutral historians from the USA and Germany. In 1956, and even in 2000 (Alfred de Zayas).
2. The Nazi occupation was not as bloody in the Czech lands as you claim. The Czechs murdered far more Germans after 1945, than the Nazis killed Czechs.
Your arrogance makes me sick. So YOU think that you know czech history better than Czechs (cos we´re so dumb and blind), but german historicians are neutral. In REAL reality the number of victims is not known. You learned about czech history from german and american historicians? :D Please, find another hobby, you´re terrible at this one.
@johnmalory26 Learn history, dude. Jews were just the first ones on the list, nazi plans for the "future" of czech nation was and still is well-known. And this plan was as cynical as the name for that fucking pupet country - Protectorate.
As I have said before, I am an academic. I have no educational mission here and am not setting out to denigrate the qualities of the Czechs. Awareness of certain historical truths is important though, otherwise your opinions will not be the result of balanced judgement. Don't send emails, they go unread.
The population figures speak for themselves. A democracy ? Racist laws like the land reform and the language law of 1926, grossly discriminating against the minorities. The minority law was never implemented as promised and there was CENSORSHIP! The German interwar ministers could never influence Czech government decisions, the Germans, eventually turned to Henlein. Worth reading: more recent Czech academic literature, not conditioned by decades of disinformation.
Jesus, two sick persons speaking out their minds - and one of them total freak! morart, if you really want to know something about czech history, you should try to read something from czech historicians. It seems to me that you think that you wrote something new. Well, you din´t. You still understand only the german point of view, buddy. Maybe you have something against my country, anyway.
@svoba4af unfortunately he is right. My grandmother is Czech and grew up there. Her Mom was German and they chased her out of the country, not allowing to take her own child, since her husband wanted to get her property and marry a younger woman. Grandma told me how cruel the Czech were, she lives there & considers herself a Czech, but she is embarrased about this part of their history. Btw. calling s.b. sick & a freak won't make your comment better or truer :(
Well, if you know Lusatia, he IS freak who knows nothing but is so sure that he does. mozart sees only the suffering of german civilians, but he is not considering 6 years of occupation and german war crimes in czech lands. We´re talking about ´40, not 21th century. People of western Europe tend to think that Czechs are unaware of what happend after the war, but we are - that is what i meant.
I know, a lot of bad things happened. And when you talk to Germans about it, they know and feel sorry - until today.
But talk to Czech ppl about what they did - they get mad & don't agree at all because they've been misinformed by the communists for years. I don't want to say ALL are like that, but the ones I talked to, and the were many. Nemyslim to spatne, ale je to trochu divne a taky skoda podle me.
I think it´s weird, too. The generation of fourties should be ashamed, but I don´t get why to be mad to talk about it today. I think the problem is that the czech people who made crimes after the war were never punished. I understand why they didn´t want to live with Germans in one country after what happened but not why they killed some them (even not as many as Lusatia or mozart think). I quess the time was just like that.
5. Many German speakers were willing to cooperate with the new Czech state but their representatives were frozen out and not listened to . This ultimately led to many, even hardline socialists, throwing their lot in with Henlein and ultimately Hitler.
After the annexation of the Sudetenland and the Germans got the upper hand, did their civilians go on a violent rampage???
1)They were frozen out mostly by Germans themselves, who were fascinated by the Goebbels' propaganda pouring into their heads since the very beginning of the Hitler's rule in neighboring Germany. Ethnic German non-Nazi ministers were actually members of the Czech governments until 1938. 2) Do you seriously compare the democratic, human and civil rights respecting regime of interwar Czechoslovakia with the Nazi-occupied country whose people was to be completely annihilated? Oh my...
yes, they did. They started a pogrom on their jewish fellow citizens. In Kristallnacht they burned down synagogues in Liberec and Opava. In Czechoslovakia, with "discriminated" minorities, the synagogues were never ever touched...
No. Instead in Czechoslovakia German-speaking churches were closed, burned, or destroyed. And German employees were discriminated against, German schools closed, German state officials all fired. Until 1935 and locally until 1939 (Front Fighters from WW1) Jewish state officials remained in German state service even under Hitler.
3. Whether the border countries had been colonised or not is immaterial as the situation had been constant for many centuries and I have never seen a credible claim that the Czechs were ever there in greater numbers than the Germans.
4. After the Czechs declared their national state and Czech the national language they moved thousands of their countrymen into the German areas and let them know who was boss.
The border regions were (sparsely) inhabited by Czechs long before Germans came. The process of assimilation was bi-directional in the ethnically mixed areas, therefore many ethnic Germans had Czech names and vice versa. The Czech-German ethnic "border" was actually moving inwards Bohemia over centuries and reached its maximum extent in the 18th c.
"Whether the border countries had been colonised or not is immaterial" - I absolutely support this point of view!! The world should look into the situation of Pakistanis in the UK now and make the cities of Birmingham, Manchested and Bradford an autonomous territories under jurisdiction of Pakistan. We need another Munich conference to settle the UK problem by allowing Pakistan to occupy UK areas with significant muslim minorities. Of course, UK will not be invited to the conference.
You Czechs falsify history. In the Egerland, no Czech settlement has been proven before. Likewise, in other border regions to Bavaria, only Germans lived. The border regions of the Kingdom of Bohemia were not colonized, but settled. Slavic tribes and Czechs never could achieve any cultivation or agricultural effort there, that is why in 12th century Germans were invited. Prague until 1860 had 80 % German-speaking majority!
Boy, you need to do some serious research before ridiculing yourself here. 1) There were Slavic settlements in Egerland aka Chebsko already in the 6th century. 2) The mountainous border areas were not cultivated before simply because there were more fertile areas elsewhere in the country and the settlers from Germany were invited just to quickly enlarge the population of the kingdom and therefore increase the tax revenues.
1. The Egerland had parts which were never Slavic. I never said no Slavic settlements existed in entire Egerland. But still only few.
2. The German settlers were invited to cultivate the barren mountainous regions and to help the King to cultivate the land. The Germans had a higher technological level than the Slavic Czech tribes themselves.
3. Prague was German-speaking already since the Hussite Wars mostly. The Czech-German symbiosis was great and flourished. No hatred please!
3) As for Prague, German was the privileged language/ethnicity of the empire and the Germanisation process that started in the 17th century clearly made an impact on the language structure of the major cities of the empire. Prague, Budapest and other had really overwhelming German language majority for some 2-3 centuries before the industrial revolution + urbanization + national awakening didn't change the situation completely.
2. As most Germans lived in Bohemia,Silesia and Moravia they shared that region with 6.8 million Czechs, so every other pre WW 2 citizen of Bohemia (the present Czech Republic) had been German pre 1918. They lived largely within their own areas (Sudetenland) where they had significant majorities, up to a 100% in a number of districts. Those largely industrial, mainly German areas had produced 75% of the whole industrial output of Austria-Hungary (52 million people)pre WW1.
1) Czechs formed a significant majority in Bohemia, so it was not that "every other" was German. 2) "German districts" were both industrial and agricultural, both rich and poor, just like the "Czech" ones. Claiming that the whole industrial output of Bohemia, which really formed about 3/4 of the output of A-H, came from the so-called "Sudetenland" (what is it btw?) is just utter nonsense.
I am an academic (not German!) who has done a lot of research on Central Europe. Some facts which you can check in your archival records:
1. At the World War 1 peace negotiations the Czech delegation stated they had only about 1.5 million Germans within the borders, they claimed as theirs. The Census of 1920/21 however showed 3.2 million in line with the previous Austrian Census of 1910/11.
All you fucking westerners critising the Czechs for attrocities. How would you feel if you had your country snatched from you for 6 years, lost your family, money, job etc, forced to speak German and learn German propaganda, to have your nation stripped of its dignity? You dont have a fucking clue, commenting on a subject you know fuck all about. Sudetenland never belonged to Germany, it was always Bohemian crown.
The Czech authorities under Edvard Benes from 1945-48 committed a genocide against the Sudeten Germans during the Odsun. 300,000 murdered out of 3 million. In the Protectorate no Czech was forced to speak German. The Protectorate was partly bilingual, because of the German minorities in Prague (25 %) and Brno (or Brünn, 54 %) inside the Czech Protectorate. Dr. Emil Hachá had his own Czech guard. Czechs from Teschen served in the Wehrmacht even.
The Bohemian Crown says nothing. The Egerland (Asch etc.) was never part of any Slavic settlement, nor were huge parts of the Reichenberg area and the Bohemian Forest. Always German-speaking or unpopulated. The Nazis never denied the Czech heritage and culture inside the Protectorate. Google 'Antibolschewist'. There were Fascist Czech Youth and other organizations. 'Day of the Czech Youth'. That is not 'germanization'!
Were thier other parties that were allowed? maybe communist, democratic ones etc? NO, Nazis were totalitarian, they had no interest in preserving the czech language, or culture or people even. They were just slaves to the nazi war machine. They didnt "liberate" sudeten germans, they used them as an excuse to invade. Just like they used alot of other excuses to legitimise invasion. Just like invasion of Iraq. it was an illegal act.
the Czechs were perpetrators of dreadful brutalities after the war on German civilians. read Prof. Tomas Stanek, Odsun Nemcu z Ceskoslovenska 1945-1947 [The transfer of Germans from Czechoslovakia] (Prague: Nase vojsko, 1991).
Tomas Stanek, Persekuce [Persecution] (Prague: Institut pro stredoevropskou kulturu a politiku, 1996).
Dude, you´re hopeless. Of course the victims of that transfer pushed too far, like everyone in a situation like that. SG can tell you that there were 200 000 death people during the transfer - and that is incredibly funny (and ill-founded) number. You should read something about the situation in the Protectorate, for example, although I know it´s not fashionable. A little bit of czech cynism: Germans are amazing beings - frustrated before the war, beasts in WWII and angels after that .
The documentation proves it. Yes, the Germans did awfull things, but it was done under military command or by the SS etc, but not by civilians. Anyone during the Protectorate not in the resistance did not do too badly, there was even an increase in Cz birthrate! After 1945, Benes encouraged the Czechs to take their revenge on everybody German, incl. women, children and old people, and they did it in the most dreadful way, on civilians!
Listen, "scholar", your leading a monoloque, this is my last reply to someone like you. You´re even ingnoring what this vid is about. Everyone in Czechia knows that there were some brutal actions against Germans. If you think that closing universities in 1939 to prevent Czechs from education and destroying czech inteligentsia means "did not too badly", it´s your business. Anyway, your beloved innocent german civilians were attacking czech cops before 1938 (and yeah, documentation proves it).
The University was closed in 1939 because of foreign instrumentalization by the Benes faction. Not even president Hachá (who was murdered after the end of WW2) protested this. Some brutal actions? Murdering 300 thousands of German women and children and stealing their property. Even under "democrat" Edvard Benes. The Sudeten Germans were always peaceful, but hated the CZ state. Like Slovaks, Ruthenians, Hungarians and Cieszyn Polish people did too!
Roughly 5000 committed suicide. Not because of Hitler's death but because they could not face loosing everything and being deported into an uncertain future. Meanwhile communist agitators had spread out from the cities and were murdering people randomly. Among those dragged into camps, crushed into cattle wagons, babies, children, old people or anyone sick did not make ot. About 200 000.
mozart1751 4 months ago
I was not going to contribute any more as the tone of replies is so moronic. If you were an academic historian and I am, you would know that millions of Germans CIViLIANS were put to death or died as refugees from the Russians, Poles and Czechs because it was convenient to say they were all Nazi criminals, down to the last baby. That is not to excuse Nazi criminals, but one wrong on top of another does not make things right.
mozart1751 1 year ago 4
@mozart1751 The trouble is distinguishing the suicides from deaths by other causes. German's committed suicide in droves when their Fuhrer died.
P1B1U1H1 4 months ago
Everyone just ignore ss90ss444. Hes actually a retard.
esamarkuc 1 year ago
Comment removed
dj77318 1 year ago
The Czechs were sold down the river by France and Britain.By March of 1939, the country was falling apart and President Hacha invited the Germans into the country to restore order.I didn't know that Hitler was so warmly received by the local population.
villanovakid84 1 year ago 2
@villanovakid84 You´re terribly wrong. Only Sudeten Germans received Hitler and Co. warmly. Hácha tried to save as many lives as he could - he was threatened by bombing of Prague and other czech cities by Luftwafe (no doubt they would do that). What else he should´ve done with no foreign support? And no, even the weakened Czechoslovakia didn´t need any help "to restore order". CS didn´t need ANY fucking german influence or "support".
svoba4af 1 year ago
@svoba4af Thanks for your response and clarification on this subject. Since you are a Czech, I will defer to your knowledge on this matter.The Czech Republic is a very nice country.
villanovakid84 1 year ago
@villanovakid84 Thank you, at least one person who doesn´t think I´m a victim of communist propaganda (when I´m 25). As most of my fellow citizens I have nothing against todays Germany although they´re not our favorite neighbours, of course. But I really hate the way they´re trying to rewrite history with the help of american movies like The Reader. My ancestors were no angels but Czechs don´t deserve to be insulted by some misquiged neonazis here on YT (I don´t mean you) :/
svoba4af 1 year ago
@svoba4af Your welcome, I can certainly understand how you feel since Germany under Hitler brought great pain to your country. My best memory visiting your country was going to Konopiste Castle, the tour guide was so enthusiastic.
villanovakid84 1 year ago
@villanovakid84 Well, I´ve been to Konopiště once and I really like this castle, but we´ve got even better ones :) I believe you found Czechia so nice because it´s so different from the tropical paradise you live on. Medieval castles, forests and local beer versus white sandy beaches, palms and pina colada :D
svoba4af 1 year ago
@svoba4af Your people shot my great grandparents in the head in Freudenthal, stole their property and expelled the rest of my family> When does your country exaime its consciencious?
trevlacme 9 months ago 3
@trevlacme First of all - learn the czech name of the city, it lies in Czechia and i don´t call any city in Germany or US by their czech names. Second of all - my grandparents did some harm to your grandparents? They never told me :D Third of all - youd should learn something about your grandparents. Maybe they were nazi supporters which they supposedly were when the came from Sudetenland. I would feel ashamed if post-war Germany did not help so many nazis to flee to Argentina.
svoba4af 9 months ago
@svoba4af They were doctors and the communist wanted to get the educated people out. My great Grandmother was a Moravian.
trevlacme 9 months ago
@trevlacme OK, your origin is clear now :D Anyway, you expect some historical justice for you supposedly innocent grandparents. You can never have something like that. Millions of people had died and many of their murderers, nazis or communists, lived happily to see their grandchildren - and nobody gave a shit. It´s too late now.
svoba4af 9 months ago
@svoba4af The same events will occur again if we do not honestly deal with them. The denial only fuels ill will and encourgaes revenge.
trevlacme 9 months ago
@svoba4af Czech scum! Slovaks know you too well. Czechs are facist terrorist who murdered and repressed the Slovaks, Germans, Hungarians and Ruthemians in their fake country. Today Czechs pretend to be victims and forget they owe all to Germans, Prag is a German city, Bohemia an Austrian province
trevlacme 5 months ago
I am a Pan-European nationalist and some of these comments where Europeans insult other Europeans honestly make me a little sad. I know that European nations have harmed other European nations in the past but I believe that it is time that we forgive one another and look to the future. Look at the statistics Europe is dying most of the nations with the lowest birthrates are European, united we will find a suitable policy for Europe and ensure that it does not die.
DOOM1337 1 year ago
@DOOM1337
Because these slavic bastards want to re-establish their communist states so they can destroy the western civilization. They want to please their jewish masters.
ss90ss444 1 year ago
@ss90ss444 I know a number of Slavic people who despise communism to its end. I know that people in Finland have issues with Russian communists but I think that it is important to not make broad generalizations about a huge group of Europeans. Take care and please do not think that all Slavic people are commie lovers.
DOOM1337 1 year ago
@DOOM1337
The slavs who hate communism are a very small minority.
ss90ss444 1 year ago
@ss90ss444 Come to Western Ukraine and ask them what they think of Stalin or the USSR or communism in General. beside there are commie lovers in all nations. even your nation of Finland has a party called "Communist Party of Finland'' does not mean that any European anti-communist should insult the Finnish people in general because of that party.
DOOM1337 1 year ago
@ss90ss444 comunism in CCE countries was deconstructed by Solidarity in Poland. Polish are Slavs, aren't they?
endriusza 1 year ago
@ss90ss444 You know very little of history.. Marxism was invented in Germany. Das Kapital was written in German. Lenin was a German spy who was sitting in his Swiss exile until German generals put him on train and sent him to Russia. Russians opposed communism - in the bloody civil war they lost millions of lives. Not like the Germans who have chosen Nazi party in free democratic elections, and they did not do ANYTHING to stop the NAzis. Because they like NAzis...
MvDrak 1 year ago 2
@ss90ss444 your beloved German friends burned down Rovaniemi .... did the Russians burn down Helsinky? Who is the barbarian now? THINK!
MvDrak 1 year ago
Lang lebe Protekrat Böhmen und Mähren!!
Gruss aus Japan.
HeiligesReich2 1 year ago
WOW... wehrmacht on bikes. Luckily for them, stolen Czech equipement was better than thier own.
The German violation of Munich agreement prooved appeasment to be a failure and Hitler to be honorles liar.
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
@MaximusProteus Sorry, but with all due respect, Skoda was not equal to BMW and Mercedes or VW. Never. Stop boasting like a chauvinist. It is silly.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Of course it wasn`t, Skoda manufactures had industrial capacity like a half of the whole British industry. German tanks were "silly" then.
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
Wasn"t Henleins grandfather a czech? Arthur Seyss-Inquarts father was also a czech. Bunch of self-hating bastards.
ss90ss444 1 year ago
@ss90ss444 Konrad Henlein's mother was ethnic Czech, but spoke German at home. Arthur Zajtích was half-Czech indeed. They identified with German nationality though. More than Austrian Tyrolese monarchists. More than 100 % German Swiss farmers. It is a question of self-identification. It is not self-hate. The Nazis never stated they hated Czechs. 100,000s of Czechs were in Fascist or Nazi organisations. Like Czech Fascist Youth.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax You are the ultimate asshole.Nazis never stated they hated Czechs.hahaha.Did you ever hear the limping dwarf Goebbels?You do not know anything, really.In the Protectorate there was only one organization "National conviviality"(Národní souručenství).Lie - it belongs to you fascists.
alesio1971 1 year ago
@alesio1971 No, many other organizations existed, like České fašistické mládeže. Svatý Václav Rota (vojenský dobrovolník). SS sdružení v českém Slezsku. This is just nonsense what you state. Czech culture and Czech nation were never attacked or destined for destruction. That is just post-war Beneš propaganda and pro-Soviet propaganda. If you do not see that, you are blind. Fascism only existed in Italy, Slovakia and Bulgaria by the way. Národní socialismus není nutně fašista.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Sdružení sv.Václav existovalo i národní souručenství(NS),ale tam obyčejní lidi nebyli,jen ti co něco znamenali(podnikatelé,statkáři atd.) aby měli klid od němců(možná někteří kolaborovali),taktéž i v NS,ale většinou nosili odznaky otočené(SN),což znamenalo Smrt Němcům.České slezsko jste zabrali,takže tam žádní češi nebyli (zase lež) a vyhlazení čechů byla jen otázka času,kdo by vám vyráběl zbraně?Český lid platí za schopný a pracovitý(a odzbrojený),tak proč by jste plýtvali silou?
alesio1971 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
But it is not like they held the czech bastards in high regard. Especially after what british whore czechs did to Heydrich.
Now czech WHORES like Silvia Saint have to work for anglo-jewish porn industry. :D
ss90ss444 1 year ago
@ss90ss444 I do not understand, how you can know such names of "Czech whores" in the Jewish film industry. I never heard of this name. As for Czechs: the Czech people are a West Slavic people of culture and autonomy. One should never forget this or deny this. Of course the Kingdom of Bohemia and the Maggraviate of Moravia were (with Silesia) part of the Holy Roman Empire since 997 AD. But that does not exclude ethnic identity. The Ladin people, Slovenians and Rhaeto-Romans existed in it too.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Silesia becomed a part of HRE later, during the reign of Wenceslau II or John of Luxembourg. Diocese of Vratislavia remined under the archdiocese of Gniezno till XIXc however.
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
@MaximusProteus Silesia became a part of the Holy Roman Empire in 1146 AD already, nothing later. This is separated from the ecclesiastical province. Belgrad was under Constantinople too, but was ethnic Serb and Serbian kingdom, not part of the Byzantine Empire anymore....
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax So at 997 or 1146? Do you have any source, i can only find that it was at the time of Wenceslaus II.
There was no such thing as "Byzantine", was a Roman Empire however.
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
@MaximusProteus Wladyslaw II the Exiled ruled Silesia back then. Already long before 1146 AD, did the Silesian dukes marry German wives and take in German farmers in their principalities though.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax But German immigrants don`t make it a "Roman" empire yet. Władysław, as the name states, was... exiled.
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
@MaximusProteus Ladislaus II the Exiled put his duchy in Silesia under the hierarchy and jurisdiction of the Holy Roman Emperor, his brother-in-law. HRE in 1169 secured the restitution of Silesia. Already in 1013, Otto III helped in founding the Diocese of Breslau. The connections are so old. Poland at that time was never a unified kingdom or country. And Bohemia and Lebus were not ethnic Polish either, nor was Silesia mostly.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Władysław was exiled, his rule unrecognised and he had no right to do it. Dukes of Silesia weren`t giving pledge to HRE, maybe Władysław, but not sucessors.
Already in 1000 A.D were founded archdiocese of Gniezno and several dioceses uder it, including Vratislavia, which was before under a missionary bishop Jordan, de facto directly dependent on Rome.
Poland was an unified Kingdom then, but it`s hard to speak about etchnicy back then.
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
@MaximusProteus All succesors of Ladislaus II the Exiled (der Vertriebene) were since 1169 AD feudal subjects of the Holy Roman Emperor and pledged allegiance to the Holy Roman Empire. This is a historical fact, but maybe Polish "education" denies is.
Wratislavia (Breslau) was created as a diocese under Gniezno with support of Otto III, Holy Roman Emperor. Poland was a fractionalized tribal federative state, with merely a duke as its head. Dukes do not head a unified kingdom.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax I was asking for any source since you begun to talk about it since i can`t find anything more than Wenceslau II, will you tell me from which source i can 'educate' myselve about it?
You seems to not know what`s a "fractionalized tribal federative state", nor what the title of Dux stands for, not to mention the Rex and when Poland becomed a Kingdom. I highly recommend education.
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
kurvy Německý,schweine Deutschland
renda117 1 year ago
If the Czechs had treated their minorities fairly pre WW2, instead of discriminating against them, particularly the Germans, Hitler would never had a chance.
mozart1751 1 year ago
@mozart1751 HItler and his criminal gang got to power in regular elections in Germany in 1933, NOT by Sudetengermans. Germans wanted to rule the world, thats why they voted for this individual that would in normal coutry be living on the edge of society. Hitler got a chance because the Germans gave him a chance...
MvDrak 1 year ago
@MvDrak
I actually find the answers here very interesting, as they contribute to my research,
one day, when you have more information rather than believing in ex Communist mythology, you might remember what I have written here.
The Czechs need to confront their past like the Germans had to. They did not believe at first the Holocaust had happened but later fully acknowledged their guilt. Your great grandparents will know even if they choose to be silent.
mozart1751 1 year ago
Inspite of the high rating of the two Czech contributors, they do not know their own history because of communist distortion. The ministers representing 3.5 mill. Germans against 6.8 m Czechs, which was the ethnic set-up in Bohemia (not Slovakia), they never got anywhere. Benes thought they would just disappear into thin air and had to incite Czechs to violence, when he knew they would be defenceless. Russians had to defend Germans against the sadism of the Czech patriots. Read intern. experts
mozart1751 1 year ago
@mozart1751 Once again I ask you where did you read these bullshits. Russians had to defend Germans against Czechs? No, dude, when they came to Prague, Red Army made some killing and so did Czechs. BUT maybe you didn´t know that german soldiers made some massacres against czech civilians even after the 8th of May. It was fucking 1940´s. BTW You defend the rights of minorities against the rights of majority and minority should rule the country according to you. How logical...
svoba4af 1 year ago
@svoba4af
Soldiers against soldiers In war is one thing. Czs just massacred civilians, no need to fight. Some Rn soldiers defended them from sadistic Cz mobs. For quick info google: Czechoslovakia, atrocities, German civilians, some of the literature is there too, also by Czech historians. The subject won't go away, even if it makes for uncomfortable reading..More and more people worldwide are researching it, and coming up with results different from the Communist version of Czech history
mozart1751 1 year ago
@mozart1751 First of all, you should know that learning about something from the internet is not a good idea, "scholar". Second of all, lot of crap happened during the war and after that, but if some russian soldiers defended Germans, it was just a rare exception. Learn more about fucking Red Army. That is not "communist propaganda" (which is your magical word). Third of all, not all historians are the best experts. ;)
svoba4af 1 year ago
@mozart1751 may be you should learn history better. Germans were the real masters in massacres of civilian, you should know that the biggest massacres were committed on civilians who had no means of defending themselves - Jews in Germany never had an army to defend themselves, the people in Lidice woke up one day and they were shot, transported to KZ, children gassed etc. etc. and many more examples all over Europe. What happened to Germans was just a slight echo of what they committed in past
MvDrak 1 year ago
@mozart1751 "The ministers representing 3.5 mill. Germans against 6.8 m Czechs, which was the ethnic set-up in Bohemia (not Slovakia), they never got anywhere." - for Germans obviously the only mode of coexistence with other nations is to rule over them... how typical Nazi ...
MvDrak 1 year ago
@mozart1751 I sort of like your point, after all the minorities should have equal rihgts, there is no reason why Czechs can only have 22 deputies in European parliament while the Germans have 99. This is a pure discrimination!!!!
MvDrak 1 year ago
@MvDrak
German civilians never descended en masse on any groups of defenceless people in mixed areas in Nazi occupied countries (when they would have been in a position of strength) to beat people to death, hang them, burn them, rape them, murder their children etc., as happened large-scale in the Csl. after 1945.,German atrocities during the war were committed by people in uniform, that is the difference!
mozart1751 1 year ago
@mozart1751 Yes, of course, Germans got their army to run the highly organized murder undertaking. I find it more alarming if a whole nation choose a group of criminals, supports them 100% with NO EXCEPTION (of course, Geschwister Scholl, but they were only 2 in a nation of 80 millions !!!) TO THE VERY VERY END (the SS committed massacres on CZ civilians even in May 1945). After the spontaneous Kristallnacht Germans discovered high efficient killing by gas, no need to kill people in the streets
MvDrak 1 year ago
@mozart1751 of course you dont need to kill, burn etc. etc. people in the streets - this is too messy and inefficient for Germans minds -- if you can work them to death in KZ, use them for medical experiments, gas them using Cyklon B. You can even rob them of their bodies after death... ...I dont know any other country where a mass murder has become a real industry, just like making cars ....
MvDrak 1 year ago
@MvDrak Again, these acts were not due to civilians. They were organised by the German war machinery without the general public's knowledge. How come the Czechs retributionists could not differentate between thousands of ordinary folks, children and babies and those who committed war-crimes? The vile acts committed were comparable to the worst excesses reported from third world conflicts.
Have a look online at 2 objective books:
Frommer, B. Ethnic cleansing
Naimark, N. Fires of Hatred
mozart1751 1 year ago
@mozart1751 the "German war machinery" was created and 100 % supported by Germans as a nation. "Without public knowledge"? did not the Germans know they are at war? And who would vote for such a disgusting character like Hitler. If I look at what the Germans have selected as their leaders with their criminal minds and uncultivated rude speeches and look at the pre-war Czechoslovak republic with MAsaryk and Benes I am proud to be Czech. Incredibly proud.
MvDrak 1 year ago
@mozart1751 Now I am really concerned that the Germans are blaming some abstract "war machine"... what if today, in the times of economic crisis, the Germans vote for some "war machine" again .... thanks God they are out of our country ...
MvDrak 1 year ago
@mozart1751 So - if we have sent the Germans to KZ, gas them, burn them in creamatoriums, everything of course using some "military machine" without public's knowledge - this wold in your eyes make as at least as "cultural" as Germans?
MvDrak 1 year ago
@MvDrak But the Germans have acknowledged their guilt! The Czechs are still in Communist induced denial which does not change the facts.
Read historian Jan Mlynarik, one of an increasing number of Czech-Slovak experts in the field who are wondering what happened to the conscience of their nation.
Being defensive or offensive about historical facts just devalues any argument I am signing off, so no more need to fly into a rage.
mozart1751 1 year ago
@mozart1751
The Czechs did not expell all of the Sudetenland Germans...the ones who could prove that they were opposed to the union with Germany and that they had opposed the Nazi party(such as communists or Social Democrats)..were allowed to remain in Czechoslovakia.
Hitler had no right to go into Prague because it was not German speaking and had never been part of the German Empire. It had been part of the Holy Roman Empire ..but so had Holland and Belgium.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel
But Holy Roman Empire was german.
You are right. Prague was part of Austria-Hungary before WW1 which is basically the same as the German Empire since there is very little difference between germans and the austro-hungarians.
ss90ss444 1 year ago
@ss90ss444
In 1914 Germans ruled Slavs....but Slavs did not rule Germans...is that fair?
Italy formed a nation in the 1860's...Germany formed a nation in the 1870's...so naturally the Slavic people also wanted their own nation.
Just as Finland wanted independence from Russia and Sweden.
No one likes to be occupied by foreigners...including Czechs.
I'm sure that you would agree with that.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel
But Russia and Sweden have also been enemies of the german people. So it is only natural that Germany would support our independence.
Swedes looted and raped Germany during the Thirty Years' War, did they not.
Yes. But these slavic people are so useless. Name one great warrior of WW2 who was a czech. Sudeten germans on the other hand gave the world such great men as Otto Kittel and Kurt Knispel both who died in the war.
ss90ss444 1 year ago
@ss90ss444 Czechs also delivered great nobility and saints (Sv. Vacláv, sv. Prokop). There is more in the world than warfare alone. Otto Skorzeny is of Czech ancestry too. The Slavic peoples had great warriors and strategists too. Peter the Great. Bogdan Chmielnicki. Or today, Polish-American geostrategist Zbigniew Brzezinski, who dominates US foreign policy and the Trilateral Commission with David Rockefeller. It is not all black and white. Please remain academic and objective!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@ss90ss444 ... Finns are useles. The best pilot of the Battle of Britain was Czech - Joseph Frantisek.
Muscovites were always on good terms with so called "Prussians" and than Germans, as well as with Austrians, they all created un-Holy Alliance and kept thier "enlighted" order over XIXc Europe.
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel The multi-ethnic monarchy of Austria-Hungary was not a purely ethnic German nation state, but a monarchy. The Czechs had cultural autonomy under the Habsburg rule, and all kinds of privileges. Far more than e.g. the Ladinese or Italians in South Tyrol and Trentino (Welschtirol, Welish Tyrol). The Protektorát was not per se an occupation regime. Most Czechs until 1944 were loyal to Dr. Emil Hácha.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
True...but you will agree that German Austrians and Magyar hungarians held all the power in the Austro-Hungarian Empire....and that Slavs were second class citizens with no real power in either the austrian or the Hungarian parliaments.
If Austria-Hungary was so content..why did all the Slavs and Romanians declare their independence in 1918? Why were there riots in Vienna and Belgrade before WW1?
Why was there a high desertian rate with Slav troops in the AH army?
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel the Czechs, were talked into a minority complex by their own nationalist politicians. People with Czech names have always held high office in e.g pre 1918 Vienna and even now. Nationalism as an answer? What are the racial-cultural differences say between Czechs and Austrians, apart from the language? Can you define it? Re. things being fair: in politics it is always about power, that is why 6.8 million Czechs could not swing it all their own way in an Empire of 52 million.
mozart1751 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel The Czechs were in the majority in parliaments, where they dominated. So they were not suppressed or second class citizens. Of course Slovaks in linguistical policy of Magyarization were discriminated, but Czechs never were: German language was never imposed against the Czech language in the 19th century. On the contrary, Habsburgs encouraged Czech. Who is Karel Fürst von Schwarzenberg in your Czech cabinet?
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
I don't think Austria-Hungary had a parliament in Bohemia. It had two parliaments...one in Vienna controlled by Austrians...and one in Budapest controlled by magyars.
In AH only the Austrians and Magyars had any power.
The Habsburgs were more tolerant of their minorities than were the Prussians...but still the Slavs in AH did not have the same level of power or influence as Austrians and Magyars. That's why Archduke Franz Ferdinand wanted to institute "trialism" for slavs
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel Nonsense. All could obtain seats and votes. The Young Czechs (Jungtschechen) around Masaryk etc. etc. all obtained seats in the Reichstag in Wieden. But of course other minorities did not have the power to decide about Tyrol etc. They could obtain every form of cultural and linguistic autonomy though. After 1889, all Austrian officials (even those from Linz etc.) inside Bohemia had to be able to speak Czech too. And German. And Polish in Saybusch and Kraków.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax LOL Saybusch? Austrians had different policyies indeed.... like a policy of antagonising and rising of nationalism amongst some nations, especially so called "Ukrainians". Even social conflicts between nobility and pesantry were good as for a reason to fight, for example in so called "Galician slaughter" when peasants (Masurians) were payed LITERALLY for the heads of noblemans (Poles).
Kraków was a quasi-free city state since the Vienna congresse until the Austrian takeover in 1846
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
In the German Reichstag it was one man one vote for any males over 25 years old...but that does not mean that the German 2nd Reich was a democracy because the Reichstag had no power to initiate legislation...it could only vote on legislation sent to it.
The real power in German Empire was the upper house...the Bundesrat...which was controlled by the Prussian King(German Kaiser).
So AH was most likely a very similar setup with no real democracy for Slavs.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel Austria-Hungary was more of a democracy than 1919-1939 Poland or 1946-1991 Poland, or 1945-1991 Czechoslovakia. The Slavic "democracies" entirely discriminated and persecuted their German-speaking minorities. Austria-Hungary never did such things, and Slavic minorities had parliamentarians all over the Reichstag, which could initiate laws. To be approved by the Emperor. Like in Holland by the Queen today. Habsburg approved Slavic official languages.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
It was not a sign of grace on the part of Austria-Hungary. They had to give autonomy to all, because I lived more than a dozen nations in the empire. Colossus with feet of clay. Tell me about the allegations against the Polish democracy. Know that in time of war, democracy is suspended. That is natural.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax I beg you pardon ?! Poland 1919-39 was by every mean an egalitar democracy, which includes emancipation of women and equal status to every minority. Since 1926 were restricted some rights of nationalist or communist extremes.
This is completly untrue accusation which can be confiremd only in the German ministry of propaganda, but no neutral records says so. Every minority, inc. German, was represented in central and local institutions, no 'persecution' of Germans or Jews allowed.
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
@MaximusProteus That is probably, why in 1937 and 1938 Het Vaderland and other Jewish and liberal Dutch newspapers brought reports on Jews leaving Poland, on Józef Beck speaking of the solution of the Jewish Question in Poland, and on tens of thousands of German ethnic minority members fleeing from Poland into Germany and Slovakia and Lithuania. Poland was a corrupt regime back then, and very influenced after 1935 by British Freemasonry via Rydz-Smigly.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax "Józef Beck speaking of the solution of the Jewish Question in Poland" - quotation and a source please.
Educate yourselve on the Krystalnacht and expulsion of "Polish Jews" from Germany to Poland.
"tens of thousands of German" - source please.
Rydz-Śmigły a British freemason? Now that`s interesting, would you be able to proove it? Don`t forget to explain what was 'corrupted' in that regime.
I hope there`s no need to explain the ways of German regime, or do i need to?
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
@MaximusProteus
Oh you deny that germans were murdered, uh. So no germans lived in Danzig, Stettin and other places before WW2? All of those places were polish once Stalin gave them to Poland?
Ask your fucking russian animal brothers. They even will tell how the Red Army raped and murdered thousands of refugees who escaped from the areas Stalin gave to Poland after WW2.
ss90ss444 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Slavs can"t understand democracy. Their values are asiatic because they were under mongolian and turkish rule for hundreds of years. They only understand violence and war. That is why they idolize murderers like Benes and Stalin.
ss90ss444 1 year ago
@ss90ss444 Sorry, but the Czechs were under Habsburg rule, under German-speaking nobility for over 500 years. The Polish people were under Prussia, Austria (Habsburg) and the Russian czars for centuries. Only cossacks and many Russians were for long times under Khanates, under Mongols and Turks. Serbs, Bulgarians, Bosniaks, Macedonians of course were under Turkish powerful violent domination. But not Czechs and Poles. I like Chopin, but not Bierut. I like Saint Wenceslas, not Benes.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax you are terribly wrong Poland disappeared from the map not longer than 120 years but Polish nation was doing well. Only 2 years after the independence was returned to Poland they won Bolsheviks running to export theirs revolution to western Europe in 1920 .
endriusza 1 year ago
@ss90ss444 ...and Germans idolized Hitler... I do not know personally any Polish in any generation who idolized Stalin. If you learn how CEE countries suffer because of Stalin you would mind your slanders.
endriusza 1 year ago
@ss90ss444 The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation had a German Leitkultur, but was also a continuation (translatio imperii) of the ancient Roman Empire. It was a tolerant, multi-ethnic state, with French-speaking, Czech-speaking, Polish-speaking, Slovenian-speaking, Italian-speaking, Ladin-speaking, Danish-speaking minorities and principalities. Not even mentioning the Dutch language spoken. I do agree that until 1866 Prague had a German-speaking majority of citizens.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax .... the rights of sucession are quite vague and rather wishful. HRE was not "tolerant" or whatever, it only needs to look at the activityies of the German margraves in Lusatia, in the "crusades" against Obodrites or Veleti, not to mention a massive slave trade, which for some reasons is a tabu for present historians. Not only pagans were being enslaved, but also christians.
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
@MaximusProteus The Holy Roman Empire of the German nation was indeed tolerant. You mean 11th century Wendish Crusade, in which even Czech princes participated. It has nothing to do with ethnicity, but with defeating the Slavic intrudors from the northeast. St. Otto of Bamberg, Apostle of Pomerania, stopped this crusade for its abuse. Lusatia was for parts part of the kingdom of Bohemia for a long time. Only Lower Lusatia was under Brandenburg...
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax I disagree, there was ongoing a massive slave trade, there are records even of catholic bishops about a slave trade with already baptisted people. Itrudors? These people were natives, Germans were intrudors with thier North, East or some other Marks. Margrave Gero 'Magnus' subjected Lusatia and of course captured many servs for trade. Than followed colonisation, so called "Ostsiedlung" and of course germanisation.
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
@MaximusProteus There was no enslavement at all, only serfdom.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax But of course there was, Moors in Al-Andalus were were pleased with eunuchs of "Saqualiba"... and not only eunuchs. Venice ran this busyness as well and of course the other states. Genoa for a very long time kept a colony in Kaffa on Crimea and Turks had alot of fun in harems, many strong arms to push thier fleet and so on...
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
@MvDrak
The Czechs felt betrayed by the West for having to give Sudetenland to Germany.
But the Versailles Treaty was mainly based on Self-determination and common language...but I know why the VT did not give Sudetenland to Germany because the Czechs needed the mountain defenses and Sudetenland had economic ties to Czech.Rep.
Slovakia was pro-Nazi ...so that left only Bohemia-Moravia in March 1939..and to the Allies that was not worlth going to war over. They drew the line in Poland.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
Where is the flag of Czechoslovakia? You always see the swastika.
dj77318 1 year ago
@scoves9484 do you really think Germany could occupied the US and Russia?
germany- 81 million people
US plus Russia- 350 million people
johnmalory26 1 year ago
According to the discussion here leads, it seems that the Czechs actually started WWII .-)
nax70704 1 year ago
@nax70704 WW2. was started by the Treaty of Versailles. Ferdinand Foch (supreme commander of the Allied armies, 1918) said: "This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years". There was never instability of that size in Central Europe, than after 1921. This was totally unambiguous that the three monstrous artifical states (CzSk, YUG, Great-Romania) will burst apart. These three countries fell on 15 pieces under 90 years and Trianon's spirit poisons the countries' relation today likewise.
jozefporta 1 year ago
@jozefporta You could say that the Czechs did in 1938 what the Hungarians after 1918. You're right, it's similar.
nax70704 1 year ago
@jozefporta i feel foolish. all these years i blamed adolf for starting ww2. you know, all that talk about the german people needing"living space" and all that. now i actually find out that he had nothing what so ever to do with it. it was that damned treaty of versailles. forgive adolf, where ever you are.
stardaddyo9 1 year ago
@stardaddyo9 Yes, you are foolish. You devour the fable, from the evil Germans and you are satisfied with this. The cleverer people recognise that the stupid treaty embroiled Germany in misery and humiliated it, and prepared the ground for the populist extremes with this. Hardly with the passing of 10 years NSDAP obtained 38% of the vote. This could have been to avoid, if Fr. and GB. go to the fair direction in Versailles.
jozefporta 1 year ago
@jozefporta After the WW2. Germany (BRD) it was not crippled longer, but he received in the European Recovery Program. Which peace was the more beneficial to Europe according to you? Versailles, wich was paved the road to the WW2. or the Marshall Plan? Mad Adolf may have been a chancellor because of the folly of greedy French and English politicians. The extremes do not receive votes between normal circumstances, but the Allies in Versailles did not dictate normal conditions of peace.
jozefporta 1 year ago
Emails go unread as I have said already.
mozart1751 2 years ago
What makes you think I am a Brit?
Benes said he expected the minorities to assimilate, why should they want to become Czech? The Czechs did not want to become Germans under the Habsburgs. What is right for one side.......
mozart1751 2 years ago
@mozart1751
Germans wanted Czechs, Poles, Slovenians to be assimilated in 'Austria' before founding of Czechoslovakia. Czech Germans did not have to learn Czech, it was optional! I know that from a Czech German person who could stay in Czechoslovakia as she was not a Nazi :)
czechguy78 1 year ago
Check everything against the records kept in in your own country and you will find out some uncomfortable truths.
mozart1751 2 years ago
The persistent comparisons with the Indians and Pakistanis in Britain are completely irrelevant, they arrived after the war and have the same rights as any other Brit. The Germans had been there a1000 years plus, just like the Czechs in the interior
mozart1751 2 years ago
yes, they have the same rights - unless they want to speak Indian to the authorites or wear burka... as a reaseacher you surely know that German was one of the official languages spoken even in parliament... ok, leave the Indians for now (they will surely speak for themselves in the future); why can't you finally setup a lasting peace with the Irish so that the bombs dont blow up in London? as a smart "minority expert" you can surely propose a solution for your own country .... or no?
MvDrak 2 years ago
Just google
Map of Czechoslovakia showing density of German minority.
Enlarge it and see where the Germans had 100% majority. in Csl. there were 3.5 million Germans mainly in Boh. Moravia, the Czechs numbered 6.8 Million. these are official census figures from Csl. Therefore pre 1945 every second person in what is now the Czech Republik was a German (every third, averaged out over Csl.)
mozart1751 2 years ago
Od 1945-1947, sudetští Němci (nevinných dětí, žen, starších osob v ceně) se stanou obětí genocidy českých, režie a schválen prezident Edvard Beneš (masový vrah). 300.000 nevinných německých civilistů v táborech nebo v masakrech, jako je město Ústí na Labi zabil. Zejména v táborech. Dokonce i sovětských vojáků v České zločiny šokován. Češi se musí přiznat svou vinu! Skvrna na českých dějin!
IustitiaPax 2 years ago
Sudetští Němci bohužel doplatili na to, že se spojili s Hitlerem. Věděli dobře co dělají a že na to nakonec doplatí. Dobrovolně se spojili s diktátorem. Jako vždy, nakonec trpěli nevinní.
nax70704 2 years ago
Masové vraždy není "utrpení". Sudetští Němci a genocidy proti nevinným německé ženy a děti, není utrpení, ale vražda. Sudetští Němci nikdy zabila 300.000 lidí. Ale zločinci mají české sudetských Němců 300.000 zavražděných nevinných. V Německu Hitler, většina Čechů také lepší stravu, než v holandské okupace. Česká republika 1945 - 1949 masakry jsou zločiny proti lidskosti.
IustitiaPax 2 years ago
Nebudu s vámi polemizovat o počtech obětí, samozřejmě všichni víme o divokých odsunech a řádění samozvaných revolučních gard. Jistě vždycky na to doplatí nevinné oběti. Přejme si, aby se v budoucnosti nic podobného jako byla WWII neopakovalo.
nax70704 2 years ago
Já jsem s vámi! Máte pravdu. Ale český národ a české státní, by měly německé historie a německé etnické ochrany kulturního dědictví, a Češi vyjadřují politování nad genocidy sudetských Němců. Dokonce i nacisté nebyli nikdy vymýceny nebo českých lidí zabitých v cestě českých Edvard Beneš a nacionalisty a komunisty sudetských Němců zavražděno 1945 - 1949. Kéž Bůh žehná království Čech a Moravy!
IustitiaPax 2 years ago
The number of deaths was estimated by the joint Czech-German team of historians to be around 19-30 thousands. There is no doubt that horrible atrocities happend and it really is, together with the German occupation and other wartime events that preceded it, one of the darkest moments in the country's history.
Gosudar 2 years ago
1. This Joint Czech-German Commission was a politically controlled commission. The Czech government did not allow higher numbers, and left-wing German politicians did not either. It was between 280,000 and 329,000 in reality. This was established by neutral historians from the USA and Germany. In 1956, and even in 2000 (Alfred de Zayas).
2. The Nazi occupation was not as bloody in the Czech lands as you claim. The Czechs murdered far more Germans after 1945, than the Nazis killed Czechs.
IustitiaPax 2 years ago
Your arrogance makes me sick. So YOU think that you know czech history better than Czechs (cos we´re so dumb and blind), but german historicians are neutral. In REAL reality the number of victims is not known. You learned about czech history from german and american historicians? :D Please, find another hobby, you´re terrible at this one.
svoba4af 2 years ago
this "Czechs murdered far more Germans after 1945, than the Nazis killed Czechs. " cannot be meant seriously !!??? absolute nonsence.
dalmy76 1 year ago
@dalmy76 it was not the nazis intention to kill anyone besides jews.
johnmalory26 1 year ago
@johnmalory26 Learn history, dude. Jews were just the first ones on the list, nazi plans for the "future" of czech nation was and still is well-known. And this plan was as cynical as the name for that fucking pupet country - Protectorate.
svoba4af 1 year ago
@svoba4af
Yes and now the Israelis say to the world to stop Iran because they are threat to the world, which is a lie because they are threat only to Israel.
But they say that because they want the world to fight their wars like the US does, spend money on them and lose millions of life's
johnmalory26 1 year ago
As I have said before, I am an academic. I have no educational mission here and am not setting out to denigrate the qualities of the Czechs. Awareness of certain historical truths is important though, otherwise your opinions will not be the result of balanced judgement. Don't send emails, they go unread.
mozart1751 2 years ago 2
The population figures speak for themselves. A democracy ? Racist laws like the land reform and the language law of 1926, grossly discriminating against the minorities. The minority law was never implemented as promised and there was CENSORSHIP! The German interwar ministers could never influence Czech government decisions, the Germans, eventually turned to Henlein. Worth reading: more recent Czech academic literature, not conditioned by decades of disinformation.
mozart1751 2 years ago
Konrad Henlein-hero
88arrowcross 2 years ago
Verbal abuse is, of course, always the most intellectual reply!!!
mozart1751 2 years ago
Jesus, two sick persons speaking out their minds - and one of them total freak! morart, if you really want to know something about czech history, you should try to read something from czech historicians. It seems to me that you think that you wrote something new. Well, you din´t. You still understand only the german point of view, buddy. Maybe you have something against my country, anyway.
svoba4af 2 years ago
@svoba4af unfortunately he is right. My grandmother is Czech and grew up there. Her Mom was German and they chased her out of the country, not allowing to take her own child, since her husband wanted to get her property and marry a younger woman. Grandma told me how cruel the Czech were, she lives there & considers herself a Czech, but she is embarrased about this part of their history. Btw. calling s.b. sick & a freak won't make your comment better or truer :(
HaematoxylinEosin 2 years ago
Well, if you know Lusatia, he IS freak who knows nothing but is so sure that he does. mozart sees only the suffering of german civilians, but he is not considering 6 years of occupation and german war crimes in czech lands. We´re talking about ´40, not 21th century. People of western Europe tend to think that Czechs are unaware of what happend after the war, but we are - that is what i meant.
svoba4af 2 years ago
I know, a lot of bad things happened. And when you talk to Germans about it, they know and feel sorry - until today.
But talk to Czech ppl about what they did - they get mad & don't agree at all because they've been misinformed by the communists for years. I don't want to say ALL are like that, but the ones I talked to, and the were many. Nemyslim to spatne, ale je to trochu divne a taky skoda podle me.
HaematoxylinEosin 2 years ago
I think it´s weird, too. The generation of fourties should be ashamed, but I don´t get why to be mad to talk about it today. I think the problem is that the czech people who made crimes after the war were never punished. I understand why they didn´t want to live with Germans in one country after what happened but not why they killed some them (even not as many as Lusatia or mozart think). I quess the time was just like that.
svoba4af 2 years ago
5. Many German speakers were willing to cooperate with the new Czech state but their representatives were frozen out and not listened to . This ultimately led to many, even hardline socialists, throwing their lot in with Henlein and ultimately Hitler.
After the annexation of the Sudetenland and the Germans got the upper hand, did their civilians go on a violent rampage???
mozart1751 2 years ago
1)They were frozen out mostly by Germans themselves, who were fascinated by the Goebbels' propaganda pouring into their heads since the very beginning of the Hitler's rule in neighboring Germany. Ethnic German non-Nazi ministers were actually members of the Czech governments until 1938. 2) Do you seriously compare the democratic, human and civil rights respecting regime of interwar Czechoslovakia with the Nazi-occupied country whose people was to be completely annihilated? Oh my...
Gosudar 2 years ago
yes, they did. They started a pogrom on their jewish fellow citizens. In Kristallnacht they burned down synagogues in Liberec and Opava. In Czechoslovakia, with "discriminated" minorities, the synagogues were never ever touched...
MvDrak 2 years ago
No. Instead in Czechoslovakia German-speaking churches were closed, burned, or destroyed. And German employees were discriminated against, German schools closed, German state officials all fired. Until 1935 and locally until 1939 (Front Fighters from WW1) Jewish state officials remained in German state service even under Hitler.
IustitiaPax 2 years ago
" Instead in Czechoslovakia German-speaking churches were closed, burned, or destroyed." - where was a "German speaking church" burned down?
MvDrak 2 years ago
3. Whether the border countries had been colonised or not is immaterial as the situation had been constant for many centuries and I have never seen a credible claim that the Czechs were ever there in greater numbers than the Germans.
4. After the Czechs declared their national state and Czech the national language they moved thousands of their countrymen into the German areas and let them know who was boss.
mozart1751 2 years ago
The border regions were (sparsely) inhabited by Czechs long before Germans came. The process of assimilation was bi-directional in the ethnically mixed areas, therefore many ethnic Germans had Czech names and vice versa. The Czech-German ethnic "border" was actually moving inwards Bohemia over centuries and reached its maximum extent in the 18th c.
Gosudar 2 years ago
"Whether the border countries had been colonised or not is immaterial" - I absolutely support this point of view!! The world should look into the situation of Pakistanis in the UK now and make the cities of Birmingham, Manchested and Bradford an autonomous territories under jurisdiction of Pakistan. We need another Munich conference to settle the UK problem by allowing Pakistan to occupy UK areas with significant muslim minorities. Of course, UK will not be invited to the conference.
MvDrak 2 years ago
This has nothing to do with it.
You Czechs falsify history. In the Egerland, no Czech settlement has been proven before. Likewise, in other border regions to Bavaria, only Germans lived. The border regions of the Kingdom of Bohemia were not colonized, but settled. Slavic tribes and Czechs never could achieve any cultivation or agricultural effort there, that is why in 12th century Germans were invited. Prague until 1860 had 80 % German-speaking majority!
IustitiaPax 2 years ago
Boy, you need to do some serious research before ridiculing yourself here. 1) There were Slavic settlements in Egerland aka Chebsko already in the 6th century. 2) The mountainous border areas were not cultivated before simply because there were more fertile areas elsewhere in the country and the settlers from Germany were invited just to quickly enlarge the population of the kingdom and therefore increase the tax revenues.
Gosudar 2 years ago
1. The Egerland had parts which were never Slavic. I never said no Slavic settlements existed in entire Egerland. But still only few.
2. The German settlers were invited to cultivate the barren mountainous regions and to help the King to cultivate the land. The Germans had a higher technological level than the Slavic Czech tribes themselves.
3. Prague was German-speaking already since the Hussite Wars mostly. The Czech-German symbiosis was great and flourished. No hatred please!
IustitiaPax 2 years ago
all 3 points are correct :-)
dalmy76 1 year ago
3) As for Prague, German was the privileged language/ethnicity of the empire and the Germanisation process that started in the 17th century clearly made an impact on the language structure of the major cities of the empire. Prague, Budapest and other had really overwhelming German language majority for some 2-3 centuries before the industrial revolution + urbanization + national awakening didn't change the situation completely.
Gosudar 2 years ago
2. As most Germans lived in Bohemia,Silesia and Moravia they shared that region with 6.8 million Czechs, so every other pre WW 2 citizen of Bohemia (the present Czech Republic) had been German pre 1918. They lived largely within their own areas (Sudetenland) where they had significant majorities, up to a 100% in a number of districts. Those largely industrial, mainly German areas had produced 75% of the whole industrial output of Austria-Hungary (52 million people)pre WW1.
mozart1751 2 years ago
1) Czechs formed a significant majority in Bohemia, so it was not that "every other" was German. 2) "German districts" were both industrial and agricultural, both rich and poor, just like the "Czech" ones. Claiming that the whole industrial output of Bohemia, which really formed about 3/4 of the output of A-H, came from the so-called "Sudetenland" (what is it btw?) is just utter nonsense.
Gosudar 2 years ago
I am an academic (not German!) who has done a lot of research on Central Europe. Some facts which you can check in your archival records:
1. At the World War 1 peace negotiations the Czech delegation stated they had only about 1.5 million Germans within the borders, they claimed as theirs. The Census of 1920/21 however showed 3.2 million in line with the previous Austrian Census of 1910/11.
Read on upwards
mozart1751 2 years ago
so why don't you google 'Bohemia'
mozart1751 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
SWW began in Munich where West has sold its freedom to Hitler
mikevazovsky123 2 years ago
All you fucking westerners critising the Czechs for attrocities. How would you feel if you had your country snatched from you for 6 years, lost your family, money, job etc, forced to speak German and learn German propaganda, to have your nation stripped of its dignity? You dont have a fucking clue, commenting on a subject you know fuck all about. Sudetenland never belonged to Germany, it was always Bohemian crown.
Al88CZ 2 years ago
The Czech authorities under Edvard Benes from 1945-48 committed a genocide against the Sudeten Germans during the Odsun. 300,000 murdered out of 3 million. In the Protectorate no Czech was forced to speak German. The Protectorate was partly bilingual, because of the German minorities in Prague (25 %) and Brno (or Brünn, 54 %) inside the Czech Protectorate. Dr. Emil Hachá had his own Czech guard. Czechs from Teschen served in the Wehrmacht even.
IustitiaPax 2 years ago
The Bohemian Crown says nothing. The Egerland (Asch etc.) was never part of any Slavic settlement, nor were huge parts of the Reichenberg area and the Bohemian Forest. Always German-speaking or unpopulated. The Nazis never denied the Czech heritage and culture inside the Protectorate. Google 'Antibolschewist'. There were Fascist Czech Youth and other organizations. 'Day of the Czech Youth'. That is not 'germanization'!
IustitiaPax 2 years ago
Were thier other parties that were allowed? maybe communist, democratic ones etc? NO, Nazis were totalitarian, they had no interest in preserving the czech language, or culture or people even. They were just slaves to the nazi war machine. They didnt "liberate" sudeten germans, they used them as an excuse to invade. Just like they used alot of other excuses to legitimise invasion. Just like invasion of Iraq. it was an illegal act.
Al88CZ 2 years ago
The Nazi occupiers never used the Czech people as slaves. The Czechs worked and ate well, and they worked in Skoda and other factories.
Search 'Anti-Bolshevist Congress' in Youtube. You can see how Czech Youth was organized and that Czech was spoken.
The 1938 Munich Agreement was agreed to even by Emil Hachá, even by Poland, France, England, Switzerland, Italy.
IustitiaPax 2 years ago
Like czech can say :,, seru na všechny fašisty a zapraskaný sudeťaky
westikfonwest 2 years ago
the Czechs were perpetrators of dreadful brutalities after the war on German civilians. read Prof. Tomas Stanek, Odsun Nemcu z Ceskoslovenska 1945-1947 [The transfer of Germans from Czechoslovakia] (Prague: Nase vojsko, 1991).
Tomas Stanek, Persekuce [Persecution] (Prague: Institut pro stredoevropskou kulturu a politiku, 1996).
You will have nightmares ever after.
mozart1751 2 years ago
Dude, you´re hopeless. Of course the victims of that transfer pushed too far, like everyone in a situation like that. SG can tell you that there were 200 000 death people during the transfer - and that is incredibly funny (and ill-founded) number. You should read something about the situation in the Protectorate, for example, although I know it´s not fashionable. A little bit of czech cynism: Germans are amazing beings - frustrated before the war, beasts in WWII and angels after that .
svoba4af 2 years ago 2
The documentation proves it. Yes, the Germans did awfull things, but it was done under military command or by the SS etc, but not by civilians. Anyone during the Protectorate not in the resistance did not do too badly, there was even an increase in Cz birthrate! After 1945, Benes encouraged the Czechs to take their revenge on everybody German, incl. women, children and old people, and they did it in the most dreadful way, on civilians!
mozart1751 2 years ago
Listen, "scholar", your leading a monoloque, this is my last reply to someone like you. You´re even ingnoring what this vid is about. Everyone in Czechia knows that there were some brutal actions against Germans. If you think that closing universities in 1939 to prevent Czechs from education and destroying czech inteligentsia means "did not too badly", it´s your business. Anyway, your beloved innocent german civilians were attacking czech cops before 1938 (and yeah, documentation proves it).
svoba4af 2 years ago
Quite agree, bad tempered exchanges lead absolutely nowhere.
mozart1751 2 years ago
The University was closed in 1939 because of foreign instrumentalization by the Benes faction. Not even president Hachá (who was murdered after the end of WW2) protested this. Some brutal actions? Murdering 300 thousands of German women and children and stealing their property. Even under "democrat" Edvard Benes. The Sudeten Germans were always peaceful, but hated the CZ state. Like Slovaks, Ruthenians, Hungarians and Cieszyn Polish people did too!
IustitiaPax 2 years ago