@ModernWizards Not as simple as that is it though. We're putting our beliefs onto our ancestors who had a vastly different mindset and way of thinking about the world, and life and death. Ancient man moved around bones himself and often they were laid to rest, incomplete. It's a very Christian mindset about not disturbing the dead. I think they probably should rebury as much as they can, the best bits should be retained for future study.
@Sonofherne; There is not a problem with deterioration as regards the Aubrey hole remains; if they were reburied in a non acidic or non metaic container [erathanware for instance with an overlapping lid], i cannot see a problem. the soil there is alkaline which is why they are in such a good state. apart from that oversight, i agree with much of what you have to say on these matters..
Having a nudy thing while the diggers dig, bet they got an eyeful. I find it so funny that people still today label their religons. If you have a belief thats all you need. He said pagen at least 6 times. Idiot. I believe in a goddess and i dont lable myself. The power of the deity is stronger than the lable.
@sonofherne (2 monthsago) - I was talking about the three adults from the group burial on Boscombe down (not the single adult burials, who were born in the Stonehenge area) and the Amesbury Archer.
Let the dead return to their burial place. I understand the desire for knowledge and recognize that some good can be done. However, it's just plain disrespectful to dig them up and display them. Egypt has a point about their ancestors being stolen and displayed. How would you feel if your Great Grands were dug up and studied and put on display? Good man, Arthur. Thank you.
what kind of accent does this man have.i like it.it reminds me of fools and horses.and yes pagan witch or jew let the dead be in their grave.but that is very obvious i think.
In response to DBAViking above, it is not certain that those people whose bones were buried at Stonehenge were 'native people'. One person was from the Mediterranean, another from the Alps.
@invisibleplanet Are you talking about the recent find - the boy with the amber necklace? I must report that the article most read in the media was wrong.There was a mix up with the isotope analysis before the story broke. He is a native, & Wessex born. As for the "other" from the Alps. You refer to the Amesbury Archer, found 3.5 miles away. Still not proven he was from the Alps either. Foreign,yes, but neither of these burials are anything to do with the aubrey hole cremations at Stonehenge.
@cyn118 yes, migration has always been a constant phenomena on these shores. Britain wouldn't be populated today if it weren't for migration. But my response was to DBAViking, and this situation cannot be likened to the Native American situation due to the lack of direct lineage/descent. It is a misnomer to view these bones as 'guardians' as it is the living and future generations who are guardians of today's Stonehenge'.
This is such a logical argument! The remains should be put back! End of!!! There is no reason to keep them!!! As Arthur says, it has nothing to do with pagan belief - it is just the right thing to do!!!
I was actually part of the crew that helped excavate those remains, and helped in cleaning and sorting them from the sticks and rocks mixed in with them. They need to remember that it can take a couple of years to run all the available tests, and I wouldn't be surprised if they kept a small sample, but it seems rather odd that they wouldn't want to return them at all. After all, they can't display them (they're just charred bits) and keeping them costs money. It just takes time for tests.
@TheDeathBunnie I was also present overseeing much of the excavations. I am in favour that after all the tests, they should be returned. Having said that, what about the Stonehenge archer buried at the heel stone resting in Salisbury Museum. Why aren't people going ape about him? Out of everyone he's probably one of the most pertinent burials at the henge. A full skeleton with indications of ritual killing, buried at the entrance causeway. Surely a dedicatory guardian if ever I saw one.
@sonofherne Late in replying because I just found this. This is a step forward. Of course he needs to be returned, but do you think Salisbury Museum will without precedent?
@cyn118 Most likely not. There's a lot more argument for the Amesbury Archer & the Stonehenge Archer (found actually at Stonehenge) to remain, than the Aubrey cremations. There's a limit to how much cremated remains can give us ultimately. All we'd need is to retain a small bit, but skeletons can tell us a whole lot more. The Amesbury Archers artefacts he was buried with are outstanding and of huge international importance historically -Gold hair tresses,fine beaker pots,metallurgy equipment..
@sonofherne And we're talking of 4500year old skeletal remains. To find them in good order is of huge importance and reburying them would be a crime in my opinion, because they will deteriorate immediately and be lost forever. Arthur is on a hiding to nothing here I'm afraid. Pushing for all remains to go back is sometimes 1) not always possible if the original site is lost 2) it sets a precedence for all museums to return ancient remains. This isn't going to happen.
The trouble is, we're judging this by our beliefs, not our ancestors. We don't know what they believed ultimately. From archaeological/anthropological evidence we find the ancestors were always moving the bones of their dead about & sometimes not returning them! Skulls would be taken & placed in homesteads, above doors and extrances to settlements.Bones were taken out of barrows and used in rituals & worn as talismans of power. Decency doesn't enter into it, it's a mute argument.
I do agree the bones should be placed back where they came from once were able to find out enough. I'm not sure about the "guardian" stuff. We can't say who they were or the reasons for their interment. They could be sacrifices, or, a royal lineage. What about the archer in the ditch, the burial in the centre & the anglo saxon execution? Why aren't these mentioned. They've been in a museum for years. The archer is probably more of a dedicatory guardian than the Aubrey burials.
Here in North America archaeologists are bound by a law that they have to return Native American remains to their respective elders and tribes for re-internment after a breif period of study. So why not these native people huh?
Because we've been invaded so often, had the crap kicked out of us by the Romans, Normans etc that they don't believe we have claim to our ancestors, plus they think they own things, and it's an authority thing for them.
Who is "they?" Sounds like a paranoid statement. The Romans were invited to Britain, no invasion! You DO realise that Romano-British are not immigrants, but native British people? Where did you ever hear anyone from the government/ archaeologist say we don't have a claim to our ancestors? Don't forget they are THEIR ancestors too! There's no conspiracy, people just want to learn & be informed. Science vs religion has always been in conflict. Study the remains & return them, I'm fully for that.
@sonofherne I Don't smoke, I rarely drink and I detest Cider. I do however make an effort to research things before I enter into an argument, shame the same can't be said for you kid
@sunbirdshaman You said you make an effort to research things. Where did you get your information from? ..."Because we've been invaded so often, had the crap kicked out of us by the Romans..."
This is so incorrect I don't even know where to start. I hate to think what books you are reading... David Icke, Marion Zimmer Bradley, The Junior Druids Guide to Falsified History!
Kid? Please. Enough of the low base insults. Just because you can't win an argument, you get shirty. Very spiritual.
@DBAViking Yes in North America that is true, however Americans are invaders from Europe and in general seized the lands from the Native Americans, therefore the surviving Native Americans have a right to their ancestors remains. However in Europe there has been thousands of years of separation since the burial of these cremations. Druids have no claims over Neolithic monuments as it is a modern cult and most of their information comes from archaeology so this will just help reveal more.
Totallly Agree!! It is sick that they are planning on keeping them!! You are so right if they are so desparate they should just keep a small sample! Its disrespectful o.o I mean who wants to be shoved in a plastic box or in a musuem they should be put back into the ground !!
i agree here this is disgusting!!! i watched the dig, and to know they were not returned is wrong. please take my vote and hope you get the remains back
ANCHIENT! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
ModernNorseman 1 month ago
Valid statement, re-bury the dead !
ModernWizards 1 month ago
@ModernWizards Not as simple as that is it though. We're putting our beliefs onto our ancestors who had a vastly different mindset and way of thinking about the world, and life and death. Ancient man moved around bones himself and often they were laid to rest, incomplete. It's a very Christian mindset about not disturbing the dead. I think they probably should rebury as much as they can, the best bits should be retained for future study.
sonofherne 1 day ago
It's hard being a druid - you can't always get the staff.
AnniesEggs 2 months ago
'Artur' uses the word 'Basically' a lot..this says a lot about his mentality..
niallobinghe 3 months ago
@Sonofherne; There is not a problem with deterioration as regards the Aubrey hole remains; if they were reburied in a non acidic or non metaic container [erathanware for instance with an overlapping lid], i cannot see a problem. the soil there is alkaline which is why they are in such a good state. apart from that oversight, i agree with much of what you have to say on these matters..
niallobinghe 3 months ago
Having a nudy thing while the diggers dig, bet they got an eyeful. I find it so funny that people still today label their religons. If you have a belief thats all you need. He said pagen at least 6 times. Idiot. I believe in a goddess and i dont lable myself. The power of the deity is stronger than the lable.
MrRjmac 6 months ago
@sonofherne (2 monthsago) - I was talking about the three adults from the group burial on Boscombe down (not the single adult burials, who were born in the Stonehenge area) and the Amesbury Archer.
invisibleplanet 7 months ago
Let the dead return to their burial place. I understand the desire for knowledge and recognize that some good can be done. However, it's just plain disrespectful to dig them up and display them. Egypt has a point about their ancestors being stolen and displayed. How would you feel if your Great Grands were dug up and studied and put on display? Good man, Arthur. Thank you.
cyn118 8 months ago
what kind of accent does this man have.i like it.it reminds me of fools and horses.and yes pagan witch or jew let the dead be in their grave.but that is very obvious i think.
witchcerridwen 9 months ago
In response to DBAViking above, it is not certain that those people whose bones were buried at Stonehenge were 'native people'. One person was from the Mediterranean, another from the Alps.
invisibleplanet 1 year ago
@invisibleplanet Are you talking about the recent find - the boy with the amber necklace? I must report that the article most read in the media was wrong.There was a mix up with the isotope analysis before the story broke. He is a native, & Wessex born. As for the "other" from the Alps. You refer to the Amesbury Archer, found 3.5 miles away. Still not proven he was from the Alps either. Foreign,yes, but neither of these burials are anything to do with the aubrey hole cremations at Stonehenge.
sonofherne 10 months ago
@invisibleplanet Ever heard of emigration? It was happening 10,000 years ago, why not 5000?
cyn118 8 months ago
@cyn118 yes, migration has always been a constant phenomena on these shores. Britain wouldn't be populated today if it weren't for migration. But my response was to DBAViking, and this situation cannot be likened to the Native American situation due to the lack of direct lineage/descent. It is a misnomer to view these bones as 'guardians' as it is the living and future generations who are guardians of today's Stonehenge'.
invisibleplanet 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
this guy cant ever be a true celtic druid or call himself arthur unless he learns fluent welsh.until then hes just an english hippy
chrisjoneschrisjones 1 year ago
This is such a logical argument! The remains should be put back! End of!!! There is no reason to keep them!!! As Arthur says, it has nothing to do with pagan belief - it is just the right thing to do!!!
Le beannachdan (With blessings),
Ruiseart (Gaelic Druid Order, Scotland).
ruiseartalcorn 1 year ago
I hope that these people are given the respect that they deserve and that their remains are returned!
Ruiseart (Gaelic Druid Order, Scotland).
ruiseartalcorn 1 year ago
Bring back the "anchient dead?" ...LMAO Bring back good spelling.
sonofherne 1 year ago 6
I was actually part of the crew that helped excavate those remains, and helped in cleaning and sorting them from the sticks and rocks mixed in with them. They need to remember that it can take a couple of years to run all the available tests, and I wouldn't be surprised if they kept a small sample, but it seems rather odd that they wouldn't want to return them at all. After all, they can't display them (they're just charred bits) and keeping them costs money. It just takes time for tests.
TheDeathBunnie 1 year ago
@TheDeathBunnie I was also present overseeing much of the excavations. I am in favour that after all the tests, they should be returned. Having said that, what about the Stonehenge archer buried at the heel stone resting in Salisbury Museum. Why aren't people going ape about him? Out of everyone he's probably one of the most pertinent burials at the henge. A full skeleton with indications of ritual killing, buried at the entrance causeway. Surely a dedicatory guardian if ever I saw one.
sonofherne 1 year ago
@sonofherne Late in replying because I just found this. This is a step forward. Of course he needs to be returned, but do you think Salisbury Museum will without precedent?
cyn118 8 months ago
@cyn118 Most likely not. There's a lot more argument for the Amesbury Archer & the Stonehenge Archer (found actually at Stonehenge) to remain, than the Aubrey cremations. There's a limit to how much cremated remains can give us ultimately. All we'd need is to retain a small bit, but skeletons can tell us a whole lot more. The Amesbury Archers artefacts he was buried with are outstanding and of huge international importance historically -Gold hair tresses,fine beaker pots,metallurgy equipment..
sonofherne 8 months ago
@sonofherne And we're talking of 4500year old skeletal remains. To find them in good order is of huge importance and reburying them would be a crime in my opinion, because they will deteriorate immediately and be lost forever. Arthur is on a hiding to nothing here I'm afraid. Pushing for all remains to go back is sometimes 1) not always possible if the original site is lost 2) it sets a precedence for all museums to return ancient remains. This isn't going to happen.
sonofherne 8 months ago 2
The trouble is, we're judging this by our beliefs, not our ancestors. We don't know what they believed ultimately. From archaeological/anthropological evidence we find the ancestors were always moving the bones of their dead about & sometimes not returning them! Skulls would be taken & placed in homesteads, above doors and extrances to settlements.Bones were taken out of barrows and used in rituals & worn as talismans of power. Decency doesn't enter into it, it's a mute argument.
sonofherne 2 years ago
I do agree the bones should be placed back where they came from once were able to find out enough. I'm not sure about the "guardian" stuff. We can't say who they were or the reasons for their interment. They could be sacrifices, or, a royal lineage. What about the archer in the ditch, the burial in the centre & the anglo saxon execution? Why aren't these mentioned. They've been in a museum for years. The archer is probably more of a dedicatory guardian than the Aubrey burials.
sonofherne 2 years ago
Here in North America archaeologists are bound by a law that they have to return Native American remains to their respective elders and tribes for re-internment after a breif period of study. So why not these native people huh?
DBAViking 2 years ago 12
Because we've been invaded so often, had the crap kicked out of us by the Romans, Normans etc that they don't believe we have claim to our ancestors, plus they think they own things, and it's an authority thing for them.
sunbirdshaman 2 years ago
Terrible eh. The Native Americans got this law enacted because they lobbied for it. I say keep at it !
DBAViking 2 years ago 2
Who is "they?" Sounds like a paranoid statement. The Romans were invited to Britain, no invasion! You DO realise that Romano-British are not immigrants, but native British people? Where did you ever hear anyone from the government/ archaeologist say we don't have a claim to our ancestors? Don't forget they are THEIR ancestors too! There's no conspiracy, people just want to learn & be informed. Science vs religion has always been in conflict. Study the remains & return them, I'm fully for that.
sonofherne 2 years ago
@sonofherne .... roflmao
sunbirdshaman 1 year ago
@sunbirdshaman Yep, with a spliff & bottle of white lightning in hand no doubt ...
sonofherne 1 year ago
@sonofherne I Don't smoke, I rarely drink and I detest Cider. I do however make an effort to research things before I enter into an argument, shame the same can't be said for you kid
sunbirdshaman 1 year ago
@sunbirdshaman You said you make an effort to research things. Where did you get your information from? ..."Because we've been invaded so often, had the crap kicked out of us by the Romans..."
This is so incorrect I don't even know where to start. I hate to think what books you are reading... David Icke, Marion Zimmer Bradley, The Junior Druids Guide to Falsified History!
Kid? Please. Enough of the low base insults. Just because you can't win an argument, you get shirty. Very spiritual.
sonofherne 1 year ago
@DBAViking Yes in North America that is true, however Americans are invaders from Europe and in general seized the lands from the Native Americans, therefore the surviving Native Americans have a right to their ancestors remains. However in Europe there has been thousands of years of separation since the burial of these cremations. Druids have no claims over Neolithic monuments as it is a modern cult and most of their information comes from archaeology so this will just help reveal more.
garynobles 8 months ago
@DBAViking Cause our country is bullshit! :P
666BrotherofMetal 1 week ago
This guy Arfur is just a drunk nutter. Why do idiots listen to anything he has to say? Get a grip!
guydecervens 2 years ago
Totallly Agree!! It is sick that they are planning on keeping them!! You are so right if they are so desparate they should just keep a small sample! Its disrespectful o.o I mean who wants to be shoved in a plastic box or in a musuem they should be put back into the ground !!
LittlebunnyakaPygmy 2 years ago 2
i agree here this is disgusting!!! i watched the dig, and to know they were not returned is wrong. please take my vote and hope you get the remains back
jmslc3 2 years ago 3