Ina Zimmerman - 2002 Olympics FS - Rhapsody Paganini

[dc19921000]

As wonderful as I&Z performed, they still had a touchdown on a jump. Keep in mind that the 4th and 6th place Russian teams performed two sets of triples, while I&Z did just one. And Petrova & Tikhonov skated completely cleanly. I think 5th was correct, as much as I would like them to place higher.

[Zuranthium]

5th place was a joke. They clearly deserved at LEAST 4th and, really, they should have taken the Bronze considering the performance was better than Shen/Zhao's and Shen/Zhao made several mistakes.

[HattieLovesCattie]

I remember her skating with Jason D more than with John D.

[LMDR249]

Wow, I was very young during this Olympics so I had forgotten what a great pair Ina and Zimmerman were (and are). So much speed and athleticism, and the best thing about them is that they took chances on lifts and moves that skaters today don't even try. Pair skating, especially American pair skating, is in such a stagnant period... let's get creative, people! I wish they had gotten that bronze, that skate really was so fantastic

[intldawn]

Well, in 2002, maybe. You could argue that Ina and Zimmerman had the third best free skate of the night, but the four teams ahead of them all had cleaner short programs. In 1998, Ina and Dungjen had a great short, but mistakes in their long program which made them vulnerable to judges preference. The Russians, Germans and Americans all had mistakes in their free. In both situations, had they skated two clean programs, she'd probably have at least one bronze.

[axonhillock]

john zimmerman is cute!!! did they place on the medal stand? i dont remember...i remember the judging scandal bet the canadians and the russians...dont remember what happened to these two

[ttmm12345]

They were So fast! So passionate!

[paowluki]

can somebody help me learn about this type of artistic sport plz,i think it's pretty and relaxing but the athletes always seem to try so hard...why cant it be more simple?hobbies are supposed to be fun,not stressful :S

[dahmk]

It's not a hobby. To be competetive at this level is your whole life. And competing in any sport at the Olympics is going to be extremely stressful. The most difficult part of figure skating is making it look artistic and simple, but the truth is that it's extremely difficult and underneath those tights there are tons of bruises. It's a very difficult sport.

[sk8ingdreamer]

This LP was wonderful. If they skated under the new system, they probably would've placed 4th and maybe even a close 3rd. Because under the 6.0 system, 0.1 is a big deduction. Judges couldn't reward their candle lift or that spread eagle into that throw triple salchow. They can only take away points. And it's not easy to climb up when you're not in the final group. And the old system really worked with rank numbers. The 6.0s are really just for show. It all depends where the judges place you.

[thesunny2007]

They did skated in the last group. Their programm was very attractive , but they lacked the technical difficulty of Totmianina/Marinin and Petrova/Tikhonov ,and there were problems with the presentation - skated too far apart, no complex holds,unison breaks. So with the new scoring system they wouldn't place higher than 6.

[sk8ingdreamer]

No. The top four pairs after the short program skated in the last group. Ina & Zimmerman were 5th after the SP. The final group tends to have the huge advantage. I must admit that I never did analyze the Russian pairs' programs. I found their music boring so I've only seen it a few times. And I'm no expert on scoring, but the non-final groups never start with a 6.0 for techical merit. Judges save the high marks for the last group. And the judges compare those pairs with each other.

[thesunny2007]

In dances and pairs there five in each group, Ina&Zimmerman skated first in this last group. Petrova&Tikhonov were really hurted by performing not in the final group - they skated two very difficult flawless programs but remained six.Many people claim they were too classical, too balletic, too predictable, but they showed the real PAIR skating combining it with the second most difficult programm of the night. And there were only two pairs who did that- B&S and Petrova&Tikhonov.

[thesunny2007]

Sorry, my mistake. Just checked it and they relly didn't skate in the last group. this is very strange , there are usually five pairs skating in each group and I was 100 % sure they were in final.Sorry for misunderstanding. Anyway they had no chance to beat T&M because of the technical difficulty and should finish behind Petrova&Tikhonov as well.

[sk8ingdreamer]

I guess we'll just have to leave the results to the judges. But I don't trust their judgment, and nor would I trust any stranger's. Technical merit has no value under the 6.0 system. With the new system I would give high credit for I&Z's candle lift, a blind lift in a spread eagle position. But who knows what value these lifts and other elements have? But I feel that if I&Z were in the final group, they could have had a good chance to overtake T&M.

[sk8ingdreamer]

And the same goes for P&T. If they were in a final group of 5 pairs, they could have had a good chance to overtake I&Z. But I don't think the judges (or anyone for that matter) could have the kind of memory to compare a pair from the previous group to a pair in the following or last group. And the first in each group has the disadvantage of the judges leaving room for the remaining skaters because the 6.0 system has no value. The ordinal numbers really determine rank.

[sk8ingdreamer]

My judgment (and I'm sure the same goes for everyone) is by preferring whose artistry and identifying mistakes. With the new system we can look at the scores and see what elements provided high marks and what mistakes took however many points. All these things are unclear. I preferred I&Z's program because I (an American) saw artistry and heard music I can appreciate. You preferred P&T's and T&M's programs because you (an Eastern European) saw artistry and heard music you can appreciate.

[sk8ingdreamer]

We're just going to have to leave our debate at that because nothing can convince me that I&Z deserved a 5th place finish. And nothing can convince you that P&T deserved a 6th place finish. You may have trusted the 6.0 system, but I didn't. And I'd like to see the point values of these elements and the deductions for mistakes are under the new system. Otherwise, we could have an ongoing debate, and at this point I'd rather forget this whole discussion. I actually wish I had never brought it up.

[thesunny2007]

The basic value of the lifts for I&Z :4Li4 costs 4.0 points; 2Li4- 3.0; 3li2 - 3.0 .For T&M : 4Li4 -4.0; 5TLi4 - 6.0; 3Li2 - 3.0. For P&T: 4Li3 - 3.5; 3Li4 - 4.0; 3li3 - 3.5

[sk8ingdreamer]

While I don't know what those abbrevations are, I did find some of those base values. But what points would the judges have given for the GOE (grade of execution)? And I don't want to research the base values for the remaining elements of both pairs because who knows what their GOE are. But remember this is the new scoring system.

[thesunny2007]

Of course the technical merit has impact - technical marks reflect both the technical difficulty and the quality of execution.Otherwise we would't see any quad throws or triple combinations in pairs.

[thesunny2007]

The skaters don't get any marks for artistry, which is immposible to judge,they receive marks for the presentation. My judgement of the second mark is based on the skating skills- unison,speed,edges,flow,body lines,close distance,complex holds,one foot skating;transitions and choreography, timing .The choice of the music itself has very little impact but the choreography must go with the music.

[sk8ingdreamer]

Under the new system, the second mark (the program components) has five components - skating skills, transition/linking footwork, performance/execution, choreography/composition, and interpretation. I don't know if those skating skills you listed were part of the old presentation score. I would think skill & transition/footwork would be in the old technical score. I think musical interpretation, the choreography and overal preformance made up the old presentation score, which is purely opinion.

[sk8ingdreamer]

But do you know that there was a third mark under the old system? The the ordinal/rank number the judges placed skaters/pairs under? If you think the old technical & presentation scores were unfair, the rank number was even more unfair. That number was really the one that had real value then. At the 1998 & 2002 Olympics the rank # for the short program was multipled by 0.5, and the rank # for the long program was multipled by 1.0. Both of those products were added and determined final placement.

[sk8ingdreamer]

Now that's why I did not agree with those marks at the Olympics. That old system had no real basis. The end results were the opinions of those judges at that event, which anyone can disagree with. And the worst part of that Olympics was that judging scandal. You may think that didn't happen, but from what I read, I believe that ruined the outcome. Both of those judges' scores should've been thrown out from all the competitions. Only two marks of one judge from the long program had been removed.

[sk8ingdreamer]

So there is my take on the whole thing. As I first mentioned 4 days ago, if they skated under the new system, they probably would have placed or could have placed (whichever phrase makes you happy) 4th and maybe even a close 3rd. But that's my opinion. I don't know what the actual outcome would have been if this event was judged under the new code of points. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[thesunny2007]

I'm terribly sorry. I thought you really wanted to know what would be the outcome with CoP and wanted to explain .But you don't. You're just entitled to your opinion while you don't know much about technical side ,neither presentation and have no wish to learn.

[sk8ingdreamer]

I'd like to learn, but all you gave me were lift points, and I don't even know what they mean. What are the two 4s in "4Li4"? But would you be able to give me the scores for the grades of execution? I skimmed through the 2008 technical rules/regulations. The technical side is not simple and easy to judge. You can calculate base values for elements, but you can't just throw grades of execution points out of thin air. The judges or technical specialist could, but you're just some random stranger.

[thesunny2007]

I'm a stranger of course,I have a judging certificate and participated in a lot of seminars but then gave it up, so I don't have much expirience. Still I can do a comparison of the three teams, it wouldn't be the most accurate I beleive, but the CoP isn't that accurate either despite that many people believe it is.For an example the same lift may receive different levels at different competitions and it happen a lot.

[sk8ingdreamer]

This really is a surprise. Now I understand why you've tolerated having a discussion so long that it may be the longest in youtube history.

I actually have my doubts of the CoP after seeing how high Evgeny Plushenko's program component score was in Torino when his program had almost no choreography.

So why did you give up judging? If you stayed longer, maybe you could've helped improve the CoP system. You wouldn't be a nobody. With more experience you'd have a much bigger say than any viewer.

[sk8ingdreamer]

The same with Totmianina/Marinin. That "West Side Story" music seemed so slow, and they seemed to skate rather slow with it. They also had their flaws. But remember their 2006 Olympic LP? They skated to a fast "Romeo & Juliet" musical arrangement and gave their LP more speed and had no mistakes.

I've heard P&T were predictable. But there was something about P&T's and T&M's LP music in 2002 that didn't work. It's the impression their choreography made that had people disagreeing with the scores.

[sk8ingdreamer]

And you mentioned Petrova/Tikhonov days ago. Yes, their long program was difficult, and I think theirs had no errors. And skating in the second-to-last group did hurt them. I wish the final group had the highest 6 pairs like with singles' free skate. But even though, they skated after I&Z and finished below them. I thought it came down to artistry. I didn't see their LP as classical or balletic. They seemed robotic, and as one said, passionless. That's where I thought the music hurt them.

[thesunny2007]

As to the presentation - again, this is not artistry, skaters don't get any marks for passion(never listen to Sandra Bezic, this woman is so unprofessional and biased)or music choice.I found their choreography went with the music, nothing brilliant but just good. I don't see any great differences in the presentation except for P&T having better skating skills and MUCH better unison among those three pairs.

[sk8ingdreamer]

Yeah, Sandra Bezic is always biased, but I'd rather hear her than Scott Hamilton who's loud and takes up most of the commentary. But no one's specific with technique.

So yeah, P&T's choreography had musical interpretation, but I guess it just wasn't the judges' taste. It's safe to say that with the old system there was so much judging for one person to handle, & I wouldn't expect them to be experts either. They're scoring skaters based on the impression they formed with their short-term memory.

[sk8ingdreamer]

...much like any ordinary viewer. But unfortunately it's impossible to find a commentator (here in the U.S. and overseas as well as long as they speak English) to explain every detail which I wouldn't mind.

Plus, with the excessive thinking those judges had to do back then in such a short amount of time, scores obviously had their flaws. This probably explains why pairs events only had groups of 4. So that must be why P&T were ranked below I&Z even after having skated last in that group.

[thesunny2007]

I may write the approximate GOE, of course it would't be thrown out of thin air but based on analysis of the past competitions and ISU regulation. There may be mistakes, but if you look at any detailed results of recent competitions you will see that one judge gives +1 and another 0 or even -1 for the same element. So if you want to learn, I'll explain what were the lift and what would be the grades.

[sk8ingdreamer]

Yesterday I came across the score results of some 2007 senior pairs event while looking for the terms of those lift abbreviations. I did see the rows of judges' marks (-3s to +3s) next to the executed elements' base values and GoE. Those judges' marks have never been shown on TV, and on this list those marks didn't seem to factor into the total element score. Only the judges' average score for the program components seemed to be their only marks that come into play.

[sk8ingdreamer]

Would you know if I&Z's "candle lift" would have a higher base value than any of T&M's and P&T's lifts? I think I&Z were the only ones who performed that lift, so does it even have it's own name or abbreviation? And since theirs was a blind lift (if that's a term) with a spread-eagle position, would it have a higher base value?

I do know that T&M and P&T had difficult side-by-side jumps. I'm not sure about everyone's spins. Everyone seemed to have the same split-triple-twist(?) and throw jumps.

[thesunny2007]

The lifts are divided into groups according to the take-off. Their "candle" lift belongs to group 2 of lifts with hands to waist take-off .This group has the lowest basic value, but it would be level 4 of difficulty."2Li4' mean second group,level 4, would cost 3.0. We don't see those lifts today because it doesn't cost much points.One of the moves to wow the viewers, but judges look for hand to hand lasso lifts.

[thesunny2007]

So I&Z had this 2Li4 lift with basic value 3.0and +0.80 GOE .They also had hand to hand lift with change of position in the begining,it would be 4Li2 (group4, level2)and would bring them 3.0 +0.2GOE .The last lift is hand to hip take-off ,3Li2 would have 3.0 basic value +0.5 GOE. There is one more lift which doesn't have any technical value since it's the non-overhead lift ("blind"?).After all they would get 10.5 points for lifts

[thesunny2007]

Now compare with T&M and P&T. T&M had similar to I&Z had to hand press lift 4Li2 with similar GOE,they also had hip lift 3Li2 with low GOE +0.1-0.2. What makes the difference is their hand to hand toe lasso lift, the most difficult of all, and with high difficulty- level 4. So it would be 5TLi4 (group 5 -lasso,Toe Lift,level 4) with basic value 6.0 and +0.5 GOE. They would get 12.8 on lifts. Nowdays we see mostly lifts from this 5 group in the programs and hip lifts.

[thesunny2007]

Next P&T. They also had hand to hand press lift 4Li2 value=4.0 +0.7/0.8 GOE (very good footwork, nice speed).Next was hip lift of level 4 ,3Li4 =4.0 points +0.3 GOE (a bit slow, but the rest good). And the final was another hip lift of level 3, basic value 3.5 +0.3 GOE (could have been faster, perfect position from her, good footwork). They would receive 12.8 points. Now we have T&M and P&T tied and both have higher pointes than I&Z, because of the basic value mostly.

[thesunny2007]

Other non-jumping elements :all had the same forward inside death spiral ,level 1, P&T would get slightly higher GOE for better positions.Sbs spins - I&Z had it CcoSp1 (level 1)value=2.0 -0.3 GOE (lost of unison, bad body position from him).P&T had FCoSp1 (level 1), value=1.7 +1.0 GOE (perfect unison,fast, good positions). T&M had CCoSp1 ,value=2.0 +0 GOE (fast, but slight lost of unison at one moment).

[thesunny2007]

Pair spins:

I&Z would get level 2 on this, value=4.0 +1.0 GOE (fast and smooth). T&M would have level 3, value=4.5 +0.2GOE (a bit sloppy). P&T spin level 1, value=3.5 +0.7 GOE (fast, good body positions). Finally I&Z would earn 6.7 points on spins,T&M also 6.7 points , and P&T 6.9 points -it's very close.

[thesunny2007]

Jumping elements: all are equall on throws. Twist - same value 4.5 points, P&T would have +0.3 GOE on this (clean but not high),I&Z would get +0 GOE (good height, awkward catch), T&M -0.2 GOE (awkward catch).

[thesunny2007]

And the jumps: I&Z 3t, basic value=4 points +0GOE (out of synch),2a =3.3 points +0.2 GOE (again poor unison, too much distance,2aseq2t =3.7 points -1.0 GOE (for touch down, bad unison). T&M 3s=4.5 +0 GOE (bad unison), 3t+2t combo =5.3 points -1.0 GOE for touch down. P&T had 2aseq3t =5.8 points + 1.0 on GOE(flawless, great unison), 3toe= 4 points +0.8 GOE.So on jumps I&Z would have 10.2 points, T&M 8.8 points, P&T would get 11.6 points.

[thesunny2007]

After all scores (don't include throws,death spirals and step sequence): I&Z 31.9 points;T&M 32.6 points; P&T 36.1 points.

[sk8ingdreamer]

I did watch P&T's LP last night (I don't have the SPs on tape, and I'm getting tired of watching youtube skating videos in low quality), but they did have the best jumps. & on a personal note, I wished they had better costumes. They seem to be always matching, & I find detailed pairs outfits distracting. But now I wouldn't mind placing P&T 4th, but I would put T&M 6th despite their lifts. They seemed to have gotten tired at the end. & I'd have I&Z at 5th because they seemed to have better speed.

[thesunny2007]

I're right, I&Z had better speed. I personally think the marks for the presentation should be slightly higher for P&T, with two other pairs tied on this. I&Z had better speed, T&M had more difficult footwork ,but those are only minor differences. As I said I thought it should be the technical score to decide between these two.

I would actually place P&T in 3d over Shen&Zhao with their messy program :)

[sk8ingdreamer]

But I really do disagree with the CoP giving I&Z's candle lift no value at all. That lift must be awfully dangerous. And if they were still competing, I wouldn't want them to remove it from their programs. And yes, I did so many lasso lifts in 2005/06 season. Really too much that I kinda tuned out lifts altogether.

So thanks for the CoP analysis. You seem to be very good at it. So why did you give up technical judging? I, too, think that it has it's flaws, but it's better than the old one.

[thesunny2007]

Absolutely all the lifts are dangerous :) But one-arm lasso is the most difficult and the most dangerous so it rightfully gets more credit.Why did I gave up judging ? I have just chosen another profession and high education as more attractive .

[sk8ingdreamer]

And one more thing. Have you been to a competition under the new system or watched it live on television? I don't think there has been any competitions broadcasted live in the U.S. But does it take longer for judges to score programs. The 2002 Olympics was shown live here, and the marks appeared like a minute or two after the skaters left the ice. In Torino there seemed to be much longer waits for a lot of skaters.

[thesunny2007]

It wasn't much longer in Torino , at least not that much longer. 1.5-2 minutes is normal time.

Sorry,I didn't understand the first question .

[sk8ingdreamer]

And another thing. It's a shame they didn't have this system back then when there were good pairs competing. I'm sure a lot of them would've up the ante. Pairs spins weren't that interesting back then, and footwork wasn't so great. But I'd hate to see that candle lift done away with.

Well anyways, thanks again. Go back to judging if you can or want to. You seem very good at it. I'm sure you could improve the scoring system if the ISUFS isn't stubborn and willing to listen.

[sk8ingdreamer]

So assuming that I&Z's "candle lift" had a higher value, to me all three pairs could be at about the same level, but I don't know. That is, until the GoE are factored in. And then there's the program components so all this remains a mystery, and even those marks can be debated. So any viewer just has his or her own personal impression of the programs.

So in conclusion both scoring systems suck, but that's because they don't show every score, and I wouldn't mind seeing every mark on television.

[sk8ingdreamer]

So you see, I love skating and wish there was more about the scores presented even with the old and much flawed system, like what mistakes would take how many points off for deduction. And with the new system I wish they would even show and explain every mark -- each element's base value, GoE, those judges' - & + #s, and each judge's program components. And they should take away anonymous judging. You know, not conceal their national identity because that makes me more suspicious of the scores.

[sk8ingdreamer]

You could add the base values for the entire list of jumps, lifts & whatevers included. But if you want to throw grades of execution points and program component scores out of nowhere, be my guest. Would you know for certain? I just had my complaints about the 6.0 system, the old calculated ranking system (which I don't think you even understand), and the judging scandal of that 2002 Olympic skating event. But let's just leave it at this: I'd like to have I&Z at 4th and you'd want them at 6th.

[sk8ingdreamer]

Of course technical merit has value. But that's under the new scoring system. These elements have clear value while the GOE cannot be determined by the viewers. And under the 6.0 system, no one knows what exactly those marks are. The elements don't have a base value. Even though all pairs don't have the same elements, I don't know if they each begin with a 6.0 and points are taken away for errors or poor execution. So I can't give these pairs a precise score for technical merit. No one can.

[uniquebrowniegirl]

Whoohoo! I remember watching this when I was a kid; however, I've forgotten all the drama about the medals and whatnot. All I remember is that these two were, and will always be, my favorite pair figure skaters. :)

[CamilleNadia]

They should have at least finished fourth--they were MUCH livelier than the other Russian pair who was placed ahead of them.

[sk8gold2010]

This is a beautiful program. I believe the US deserved the silver medal. What bothers me about all of this is the USFSA never stood up for this pair through the entire scandal. This pair was "hurt" from it all & so many forget how they were hurt. And for anyone elses info, there WAS a deal and things were covered up & that is the sad part of the whole thing. And for what? It only hurts the skaters who have trained so hard. Anyway, gorgeous program...thanks for putting it up!

[thesunny2007]

If Ina&Zimmerman deserved silver so what about other pretendents for medals ?Sale&Pelletier - bronze?Shen&Zhao - fourth place? What about Petrova&Tikhonov ,who skated better than Ina&Zimmerman in both programes ,but remained behind them?

[KweenBombersfan]

ahhh, love it! good times man. Michelle Kwan, Cohen, Plushenko, Yagudin, Goebal, Shen&Zhao...etc...good times in skating.

[pellebravesskylar]

Tired of Russian pairs - we all know that the 2002 Russian pair didn't deserve to win over the Canadian pair. John Zimmerman is the best looking male figure skater of all time - surely he deserved some kind of medal for that...

[hatula87]

Actually those who know a little bit about figure skating understand that Berezhnaya&Sikharulidze were much better and won the games fair. By the way Ina&Zimmerman had the same coach -Moskvina.Without her they would be in the end of the ten at these Games.

[pellebravesskylar]

Actually I DO know a little bit - a lot actually - about figure skating. If the Russians deserved to win so much in 2002, then why all the controversy that followed? I remember Scott Hamilton and Sandra Bezig were beside themselves to explain how a perfect performance by Sale and Peltier could have finished second to the Russians' program which contained a couple of errors. The French judge admitted she'd cheated - and a "dual" gold medal followed...

[hatula87]

Had you know something you would understand how difficult B&S program was .They had ONE mistake that is why S&P got better technical scores. B&S had better transitions, edges ,unison,speed ,choreography and a NEW program - so they won with the second mark.North America commentators "occasionally" forgot to mention that B&S program was more difficult and that they won the short.

[pellebravesskylar]

I used to skate FYI and in fact competed in the Midwestern Regionals for years - highest placement was fourth, senior level. While I'm not exactly Michelle Kwan, I think I have at least a good grasp of skating.

[hatula87]

Almost forgot - the whole story with the french judge was bullshit - there was no way Alla Shechovcova - Russian judge in dances, would place her team in the second place. The French judge never admited cheating in an official way so there were no justification for the second set of the gold medals.This was a result of N.America media pressure on ISU.

[pellebravesskylar]

But the point is...they DID give another gold out. So that totally undercuts your argument. Plus, I guess that you know so much more than Scott Hamilton and Sandra Bezig - who felt the Canadians were robbed, as did most other former skating champions and commentators.

[hatula87]

As I wrote the second gold had nothing to do with the sport ,it was about money and power of American TV (and some others).Not regarding the knowledge( which is also questionable since Hamilton has alittle idea of pairs skating) I am less biased than Hamilton or Besic -that's for sure.American audience seems to be too naive believing in all that is shown and said on TV.

[pellebravesskylar]

What a load of rot. The reason another gold was given out was because the French judge admitted she was pressured to vote a certain way.

Bezig was a pairs skater, so I think she kind of knows her stuff.

I agree that the American media is powerful and many Americans don't question anything that they see or hear on TV. I'm not one of them, however. After all, I voted against Shrub in both elections.

[hatula87]

French judge NEVER admitted any pressure or fixing the voice in an official way - it was a private conversation with Technical specialist .Somehow there were journalists sitting next to them so the next day newspapers were full of "sensational" news. Reine Le Gougne refused to make any official announcment ,claiming she had judged by her hurt.

[hatula87]

The rumers about cheating were spread by N.America journalists with no justification. Later Olympics Committee made a decision to award the second gold based on "an audience and media not pleased with the results " as it was written oficially.ISU chief protested the desicion since there was no official letter about fixing voices - no reason for results change.Still Canadians took their second gold medals

[sayalamar]

What you said says pretty much about skating back then: "there was no way Alla Shechovcova - Russian judge in dances, would place her team in the second place". Nationalities shouldn't, the performance and passion should.

[hatula87]

It's not a big news I suppose that judges "protect" their skaters,espesially in dances.French judge will always place her/his pair first,Russian judge-Russian team and German - German team.The same about other federations.

[Darkangel127]

Scott Hamilton&Sandra Bezig are not exactly the less biased commentators in the world... Of course they were rooting for their athletes! They "forgot" to mention that S&P came in 2nd place in the SP, only because the judges hadn't deducted them for a fall. If fair judging did work both ways, S&P should have finished not higher than 4th-5th after the SP, which would automatically exclude them from the gold medal contention. I do agree, though, that this was Kyoko&John's best performance ever!

[hatula87]

"lackluster" Russian pair are the 2006 Olympic Champions!!!!And Ina &Zimmerman were placed higher only due to their interesting program made by Moskvina.

[pellebravesskylar]

So? Big deal if they won in 2006 - the point is they shouldn't have medaled 4 years earlier. I believe Scott Hamilton finished fourth or fifth in 1980 - and then won in 1984. I guess he should have medaled in 1980, too, by your standards.

And did the judges let you know that they placed I&Z because of the "interesting" program? Wow, you must have access that we mere plebes merely dream about...

[pellebravesskylar]

Sorry, I meant to say finished fourth - not third. Even so, I stand by my Scott Hamilton remark - guess he should have finished higher in 1980 since he won in 1984...

[CamilleNadia]

They should have come off with a medal--they were MUCH better than the lackluster Russian pair that followed.

[tinymavy]

I loved pair skating before CoP!!! beautiful moves and lovely line!!!

[Kesshutsu]

#1 in my book

[voodoo4936]

A leg wrap doesn't affect the technical score, though, so there's really no reason for the judges to mark it down besides its unattractive quality. I think they deserved bronze, 4th at the very least.

[StickyFumblings]

ITA. The fix was in that night, unfortunately.

[peters206]

do you have the scores part at the end?

[sergioayala]

Technicall Scores:5.5 5.6 5.7 5.6 5.4 5.5 5.6 5.6 5.5

Presentation:5.7 5.7 5.8 5.6 5.6 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.7

They were really low! i dont know why btw they were the 13 couple to skate!

[escaflowne9282]

Actually ,considering that there were still 7 couples to skate, marks like 5.7 were actually very high! Don't forget that under the OBO system marks were placeholders and not much else. Ina was just infinitely better with John than with Jason, thanks for uploading this

[LWOPP]

Zimmerman one of the all-time greats. Too bad he never found the *perfect* partner, although Ina was probably his best. This is a wonderful FS. Thanks!

[Lalala123]

You don't think Ina is his perfect partner? I don't know what you're seeing, but they clearly are the perfect skating pair. Such great chemistry, they work amazing together.

[neemarita]

Goood program but Kyoko's leg wrap and the fact they tended to land too far apart during their SBS jumps hurt them - but still one of my fave pairs and this is my fave performance of theirs ever! I miss them a lot.

[pelestar]

You're completely right. Their lifts are beyond amazing but her leg wrap is terrible. Wonderul program though.

[mandy147]

omg!!!! 5th! no way that was just sooo amazing! sorry to ask so many questions but who beat them in all the places above? ( i mean 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th)

[tigrelis]

1. Elena Berezhnaya/Anton Sikharulidze

1. (originally 2) Jamie Sale/David Pelletier

3. Xue Shen/Hongbo Zhao

4. Tatiana Totmianina/Maxim Marinin (1st in 2006 Olympics)

[mandy147]

did they win a medal?

[guingel]

my god. that was astounding! absolutely beautiful. thank you for posting it!