Does not work, the path of each block on the wheel travels through a closed line in this static magnetic field, no energy can be gained. It's an analogue to a pendulum in gravity, this one is oscillating between south and north maxima in the magnetic field. Every block just exchanges kinetic energy for magnetic field energy and viceversa. And it doesn't matter what paths you choose for your blocks on that wheel.
A lot of people are saying that this will not work. However, they are incorrect; over-unity is impossible, but with zero friction, perpetual motion is possible. Once you attempt to take energy from it, it will stop though.
@Viruzzz@MucusFelidae I never said that zero friction was a possibility. Theoretically, if zero friction was possible, a perpetual motion machine could be made.
@nibuz56 Ofcourse, an object in motion stays in motion unless acted upon by an external force
But as you said yourself, a machine like that would be useless as the amount of energy you could get out of it would be equal to at most the energy you put into it's motion.
The act of the magnet counteracts gravity. The magnetic force lifting the weights into a higher potential energy state causes the weights to resist falling thus not providing the downward force needed to turn the wheel. But, if you can overcome these principles and other laws of physics then maybe it will run forever. Nice graphic explanation and it really got me thinking. Thanks!
@TheNehemiah5 The strength of the magnets will wear out over time, the problem with all the machines which seem to work in the short term that are based on magnets is that those magnets took a lot of energy to make that powerful, and they will lose their magnetic strength, it just takes longer than most people have patience to sit and watch for :)
I think it would work, if you compressed the whole machine in helium. Research I have personaly done, shows helium removes weight and friction. Compression of helium adds a affect of less ox or zero atmosfere. Under spacific preperation metods, of the material inside the chamber you can also add nitrogen as a lube. Cheers to your good thinking.
The only physical reason this wheel would ever turn is to reach a lower energy state, just like falling down or moving attracting magnets together.
Given that it is cyclic and thus repeats its positions and energy states it should be clear that it can't work. For it to work it would need to keep finding lower and lower energy states, not repeating the same ones.
What you are trying to do is like making a circular track that goes down forever. It can't be done.
But would'nt both enrgy forms eventually balence each other out? Similar to a body pulling an object with x newtons and an opposing body pushing the body with x newton with the forces acting in opposite directions the body stays stationary.
What if we made this design more 3 dimensional? :)
This method does not work. The thought is that the weight of the magnets is off to one side, therefore the weight has leverage to rotate the wheel. But, the "moment of inertia" is a oval, and not a circle, and therefore it does not rotate freely.
That's new, adding gravity and magnetic stair cases. Good concept but still doesn't cut it. It looks like a simple spinning flywheel with a lot of friction and some imbalance in terms of physics.
i love this design. ive come up with a few that will work with magnets also. by i hope you realize this wont work, and neither will any other perpetual motion machine. awesome design though.
True Free energy devices exist,But Millions are spend in supressing that information,Get the blueprints for a free energy motor at LT-MAGNET-MOTORdotCOM ,Big change is comming soon!
Hi, well done, but you can only get something to work, if you use the virtual centrifugal forces and convert them somehow into rotational forces. Also use springs with it to store the forces and movements. Only with levers and torque arms you will never get anything selfrunning ! This is from my own research. P.S: Please subscribe to my youtube channel. Just click on my username and the subscribe. Many thanks. Regards, Stefan.
If the magnits are used only to keep the blue weights at the maximum momentum, the you can use another inner circle that restrict the weights of going in the center. (sorry for my english)
Nice idea. Systems move in order to reach lower energy states. Rocks fall down, compressed springs try to expand etc
Each rotation by one segment of this wheel looks the same as every other rotation hence it has the same energy. Because it is not reaching a lower energy state there will be no tendency for it to move.
The magnets are arranged symmetrically and thus cancel out. The rest is a classic "Overbalanced Wheel".
In practice it will turn slightly until it reaches an equilibrium point.
I do not speak in english and really can't write - sorry. Since more as 10 years I dreaming something like this. Slowly (very much) I can believe that it's working if ...
Did you do "any-thing". Or only idé. Das it work. Did you see it? I know that it has no sence to make power, but would be good to prezentálni. So, if you think, give me a contact - and I'll learn angolul. De ha értjük egymást, akkor - biztos imered a viccet: Há mé beszélünk angolul? Gratulation. Just I'm arrived - just to same.
This is quite similar in its topology to a rotary wankel engine, which is a very clever machine. Perhaps you should turn to inventing things which aren't thermodynamically impossible?
the inner circle prevents the movement of the magnet inside, but it still applies a force to the circle
I don't know where the force will go, but I'm pretty sure it stops this thing from working
sweet graphics, but learn physics, and stop listening to crack pots. but, you said you didn't test it, so you probably knew it wouldn't work, so, good on you
I invented a breakthrough energy source which violates the law of conservation of energy. I have a PROOF that there are electrodynamic phenomena which violate the law of energy conservation. I am looking for $30 000 for a prototype and $3M for patents. Making a 6 kW generator will cost $1200 in mass production, value of the energy produced per year $5400.
Best you can accomplish is perpetual MOVEMENT. That is, eliminate any and all friction and other energy loss and the wheel will keep turning. This does not equal free energy though.
a lot of great minds have been hit with "that won't work" or "that's impossible". It's worth it to try any idea, regardless of its plausibility. We obviously don't know everything there is to know about physics, otherwise these problems will be solved. Who knows what we may find out?
a lot of great minds have been hit with "that won't work" or "that's impossible". It's worth it to try any idea, regardless of its plausibility. We obviously don't know everything there is to know about physics, otherwise these problems will be solved. Who knows what we may find out?
I don't understand the orientation of the magnets. If the inner circle is used to prevent further movement of the magnets (to get a difference in momentum) then I think the magnets in one row should each be rotated 180 degrees.
So in this case the concept AND design are wrong if you ask me.
What does the double arrow by the magnet mean? A changing magnetic field? That will cost energy too.
@SCRTpilot double arrow mean the magnet can move up and down along the rod you lock the arms to prevent rotating then aligning position of all magnet like this (right hand side far from the center than the left) start testing by unlock the arms if the arms can rotate to 45 degree, it will rotate forever. if not , this is the wrong idea.
@lastaekk Maybe if you had your outer magnets angled correctly it might stand a little bit more of a chance... you have a few of them pushing counter to the direction you're trying to go.
I have been thinking of something sorta similar, but w/o the magnets. The core problem: how to return weights to starting point, using less energy than is produced. Since we already have PROVEN LINEAR (ie 'one way') GRAVITY machines (water wheels and hydropower turbines), rotary devices are nescessarily ruled out!
Not perpetual - even if it had almost no friction, the magnets lose a little but of energy every time they attract or repulse, and the energy required to make the magnets magnetic was much more than will ever be released by them.
Passive rotating systems can never show perpetual motion because the energy state for any particular position is the same in every rotation. If the energy states are the same then the system will eventually stop because the only thing moving it is its tendency to move into a lower energy state.
You need is an infinity long slope. Or a circular track that goes downhill forever. These two suggestions are no sillier than this video but people get confused by magnets and believe the impossible.
smart, but i don't think it would even work in real life (there are a lot of factors that simulations leave out). And even if it did, it would have to be GARGANTUAN just to produce a small amount of energy.
You'd need the absolute minimum of friction in the bearings.... think floating magnetic bearings (although that might interfer with your push/pull magnets)
It's a clever way to change energy forms, but I'm not sure how practical it would be, given the amount of magnets required to produce enough energy to make it significant. Bonus points for creativity though.
magnet magneticy will end by the time. earth magnetic will take it. and i saw 1 vid where something like this was showed. its gonna go for long long time but u will need to change magnets time per time
instead of condemning the ideas, or using software that won't substantiate the ideas, build a prototype, and try, sacha4 you seem to want to pay for energy. shivra you seem to be the optimist, and perpetual energy in its definition may not exist but how about something that produces 5X's it supplying energy and can run for years???
Except it's not perpetual energy. You would have to be able to get more work out of the system than you would be required to put in. Gravity and magnetism are input energies, and you have friction loss in addition to output work.
Well actually perpetual motion would only require that the energy out be 100% equal to the energy in. Which technically could be done because energy can neither be created or destroyed. But the energy does not all go where we want it to go. Some gets lost in the form of heat from the friction. Some is lost in the form of sound from the vibration. We can not go over 100% effecience but it also seems highly unlikely we will ever reach 100% either because theres just too many losses to account for
Theoretically yeah, but we can't actually have a frictionless surface. It's physically impossible. Even in extremely smooth surfaces there ends up being a vacuum effect (I forget the name just now).
Well the only way I could think of to create pupetual motion would be to Have an object spinning in an absolute vaccume and even then you would have to eliminate all external forces such as gravity and magnetic force nomatter how small. Essentially for it to work the spinning object would have to be the only object in existance throughout the universe. Any other object would slow it down over time with it's gravity.
if you think about it , a damn is free energy. We the people dont have to put the rain in the clouds to fill the lakes. mother nature does that for us.
Where there is motion there is heat. Heat engery that will radiate away from the device which means that it will eventually stop. Maybe it is more efficient that other devices, but perpetual...nope.
Add in the friction of the rotation, the magnets sliding up and down the rods and gravity pulling against the magnets on the up cycle and its over.
Very cleaver though. Thumbs up for thinking outside of the box on this one.
shivrajvishnu, it doesn't matter. The most important thing is, people believe in perpetua mobile and waste millions of workhours in failing attempts, we can watch on YT. Further advantage: Perpetua-mobile scam industry will grow further - what drives our economy.
What I saw in the graphic it is not a perpetual movement. I explain.
The magnets of the rigth in the wheel, what pull down the wheel by gravity, make more force when are in a long distance from center. But if you see well, when are in the left of wheel, they are more magnets than in the rigth, so the force of gravity is the same in the rigth and in the left
@Adkit2 were human, were the only (at least we think we are) intelligent species, WE made the laws, WE wrote them down, WE can brake them, do you understand my point now? >=l
@Valendros Nope, in the long run, if you see the real point, we invented the word discover, guess what, WE made everything, all of our beliefs are, guess.., our beliefs! It's us that made everything, it's us that make things real, without us, there's no laws of physics... the laws of physics without us are still there... We can destroy any law since it's our belief... understand now... not yet i bet...
@MPX4132 Sounds like you need to really BELIEVE you can fly off a skyscraper.
Sorry to burst your little power trip, but the universe was being governed by the laws of physics we've discovered (and some that we haven't yet) for billions of years before Humankind came along and will continue to do so long after we're gone.
You want to get into a philosophical debate about a chair being a chair only because we say it is, that's down the hall in touchy-feely 101.
@Valendros touchy-feely, that's your point of view my friend, think of what you say, get into the physiological state of mind and check out what i mean, good luck, and I can bet whatever we will brake those laws eventually, some things have, and we still don't know yet... we're too young to understand much... how sad we're probably going to die whit out knowing the truth...
@MPX4132 Even if we do circumvent the laws via some yet-unknown technology. Again, it simply means the laws we have discovered were incomplete and were in need of revision to incorporate the new data.
Discovering new things is not 'breaking physical laws' of the universe.
@MPX4132 I like your way of thinking, but remember you can't abolish a law of physics without having sufficient data to prove it wrong, and without coming up with a new law that explains all prexisting experimental data and your new "anomoly" of data. Similar to how maxwell altered faraday's laws in order to come up with his infamous equations to unify the electromagnetic forces. In other words people would rather have a flawed working equation than no equation at all. Go experiment ;o).
@shadowman080 if it take 1kw to lift an object to height 1m it will create 1kw when it falls 1m if it is lifted halfway and lifts itself the rest of the way costing only 500 watts then it produces more energy than it requires or can self propell, newton was an idiot this video is the only one showing both the machine performing the task and has all specs, no other video in history has this youtube.com/watch?v=jFazyyPh2iQ
If You use electricity too You may get a very efficient Hybrid (electicity would be used only to escape magnetic gate, when the Push will be executed by magnets).
it doesn't work - because the first magnet in the "Atraction Stator" wouldn't let the rotor spin in a direction where the attraction is less than it has at begining of the stator. and the "Repulsion Stator" has no enough push power
xtcsx... I agree whole heartedly.. I've been tinkering with rechargeable toy helicopter engines to see if thats possible.. Its a wonderful concept, unfortunately not perpetual... 'I think''
So I have been researching the concept of the magnet motor and I realize that repulsion moreso than attraction will cause the magnet to deplete its magnetic properties... nobody is talking about using the generated electricity to recharge the magnets as its working.. to me this appears to be one of the missing links.. same thing with electric cars.. the wheels are spinning... USE THAT... thats how electricity is generated in the first place.. If you make the machine say xtcsx on youtube gave it
You would be using electricity to power the wheels to power the motor to power the wheels, there's no room for energy to actually move the car.
A vehicle converts chemical energy into mechanical energy (at less than 100%, too). Anyway that you try to re harvest the mechanical energy back to chemical energy, you loose mechanical energy as well as energy in the transfer process
I beleive it doesnt work because the weight of the blue magnets has been reduced to nothing because they are now being held by the magnet field. Which makes me wonder what would happen if the magnets are only put on the horizontal axis.
Does anyone know what sort of software was used or can be used to model such simulations? I've tried from toon-boom to Maya and find neither to be particularly suitable.
This is not a simulation, it's an animation, and the difference is that the former relies on the laws of physics, the later on the free imagination of the programmer.
And no, this device doesn't work either. Both gravity and magnetic fields are conservative, meaning that no net energy is added when a magnet has completed a closed loop.
what about at the end of the superman movie, when the bad guys were captured into a record which was then throw out spinning into space? are you saying they've stopped spinning by now?
This is because any magnet (purple and Yellow) that can pull a Blue magnet to it is strong enough to push up the other magnets on the other side, regardless of the other attraction forces.
Yep, there are several ancient attempts also relying on the gravity solution, very similar to yours but friction eats up everything and the resulting force equals on both sides of the machine, so there's no movement at all. :)
There's no perpetuum mobile. The universe doesn't allow stuff like that ;)
So if they don't need to be repelled, why would the magnets repell them. Not because they're nice. Calculate the gravitational and electromagnetic potential energies and the kinetic energies of the slugs and see what you get.
And the Mythbusters would also tell you that the laws of thermodynamics prohibit a perpetual motion machine. I mean, the whole point of these things is to generate usable energy, right? Who cares if it moves forever? Plenty of things move forever, but if we cannot harvest the energy of motion to actually DO something the contraption is, quite literally, of no use.
Yeah, but you have to actually do work to get energy from a magnet. That's how a dynamo works. And if you want to use that energy in the usual way (electricity) you will lose energy due to resisance.
Consider the energy required to raise a weight. e = mass x g x height. Note that it's the height from start to finish not the length of the route taken. It's much the same with iron and magnets. The energy gained by the iron approaching the magnet is thet same as that required to remove it - regardless of the route taken (vertically, horizontally etc). Overall net sum zero. Nothing left to overcome friction.
exactly!!! the route taken does not affect the energy required to lift an object against gravity... otherwise you would have invented the infinite energy source... but thats impossible my friend
I'm currently constructing a prototype that has similar mechanics. You should also build a cheap prototype first.
You don't need $20,000 to make one. I estimate $50-$75 dollars.
For the main spinning/ axle part I'm using an old fan ($10)...Will also use plastic tubing ($10) from Home Depo...Magnets ($20), plexi-glass ($10), Foam board to cut out and make a wheel ($5)
Haahahahahahahahahahahaha ... what a piece of crap. Perpetual?? Not even slightly. Haha! Magnets, seen for the first time in his life??? The force of the magnets that repel the wheel is exactly the same force you need to exert to move the wheel into the magnetic field. A simple exchange of kinetic and potential energy. It is like trying to gain energy through a ball which rolls downhill. After some time you need to roll it uphill. As simple as that. What a Billy Bob hick!
any device being propelled or pushed by magnets to cause this continuous is truly not perpetual. magnets do die over time but finding a way to charge them in the process is another question to be answered.
There are several attempts to get this to work on youtube.
If the magnets are strong enough to lift the rods vertically against gravity...how can gravity also be strong enough to allow the rod to escape from the magnets?
Remember the energy required to remove a bit of iron from a magnet to infinity does not depend on the route the iron takes.
I came up with a similar design 7 years ago but never built it. They say that those who invent perpetual motion machines are mad and will end up poor and alone if they persue them. But if they let it go, they usually go on to greatness. The very fact that you can devise such a machine, whether it works or not, is a sign of genius. I never built a prototype of my machine, but seeing yours has inspired me to start looking into it again. Thank you, my fellow mad genius.
so basically your a genius cause you never built your idea or even know if it works or not?
yea right.
As for saying "The very fact that you can devise such a machine, whether it works or not, is a sign of genius" if flawed. Sounds like "no child left behind" mentality.
Of course I thot of something (that didnt work 30 years ago) so I must be...
There's a book called Perpetual Motion machine and that's where i got my info. To say that I am not genius without knowing me is a bit flawed. But then again, what do I know. I'm mad.
i came exactly to this concept 12 years ago and i never constructed it either - less expensive is to do experiments in your mind ;-) the key was to unbalance the permanent forces by screwing the geometry. in my ideas i came even into using magnetic fluid (see videos of such the liquid on youtube) instead of pistons, in order to obtain continuous gradient. and when you think about employing the liquid, you can imagin more easily why it will not work.
Doesn't work with fluid because there is no center of mass, the rods use the new inner circles center as the center of mass. Without the rods you can't get more weight on one side than the other. After centuries of using center of mass principle for weighing people we've come short. Theoretical RPM is caused by gravity 1G, now what do you think would happen if RMP was accelerated by engine to 20K? Magnets+ electromagnets to reduce frict.With a mirror-image replica next to it. Inertial motion? ;D
in the case of fluid, you can get more weight on one side by enlarging the diameter of a pipe leading the fluid, respectively on the side where the weight falls down you use higher volume of the pipe. magnets and gravity should work like a pump. but there will be no circular flow, i think the answer is in Bernoulli's equations. in the case of magnets its a problem of physical arms. for simplicity don start with 6 arms, but only one magnet, tweo oposite ones, then two perpendicular arms..
yeah, that's what i thought too... but even so, i think this is the best model i've ever seen. the friction must be minimal. it gets me so excited, lol
actually, it gets me kinda confused, because i can't see what could make it stop, why wouldn't it work. i just think that it wouldn't because perpetual motion seems impossible... but i gotta tell you, this design is twisting my mind!
Here's what will make it fail: if you take energy OUT to do WORK this system will have LESS ENERGY and will RUN DOWN. That's assuming that this thing is completely frictionless which just isn't so. See if you can make one that runs faster and faster as time passes like Lisa did on the Simpsons. Oh, why did Homer throw that contraption away?..
I think your design is one of the more clever designs I've seen. I'm wondering, though, if it would be equally effective if opposing working weights were attached to each other and only the upper magnets were in place?
wow! very smart idea, thanks for posting it so we can copy it ! ive done that with my tesla radiant device as well,its something different, but might hold another avenue of free energy stuff sort of. urs is the best gravity wheel idea ives seen. good work
Does not work, the path of each block on the wheel travels through a closed line in this static magnetic field, no energy can be gained. It's an analogue to a pendulum in gravity, this one is oscillating between south and north maxima in the magnetic field. Every block just exchanges kinetic energy for magnetic field energy and viceversa. And it doesn't matter what paths you choose for your blocks on that wheel.
The same with gravity in this animation.
sleepingeye 1 month ago
A lot of people are saying that this will not work. However, they are incorrect; over-unity is impossible, but with zero friction, perpetual motion is possible. Once you attempt to take energy from it, it will stop though.
nibuz56 4 months ago
@nibuz56 "but with zero friction,..."
Zero friction is not possible.
MucusFelidae 3 months ago
@nibuz56 zero friction is an impossibility,
Viruzzz 1 day ago
@Viruzzz @MucusFelidae I never said that zero friction was a possibility. Theoretically, if zero friction was possible, a perpetual motion machine could be made.
nibuz56 1 day ago
@nibuz56 Ofcourse, an object in motion stays in motion unless acted upon by an external force
But as you said yourself, a machine like that would be useless as the amount of energy you could get out of it would be equal to at most the energy you put into it's motion.
Viruzzz 1 day ago
@nibuz56 Exactly. The most a perpetual motion machine could do is be a fun knickknack.
nibuz56 1 day ago
In the fullness of time this machine will break down, as all things will in the eventual heat death of the universe. Entropy, 1; you, 0.
logician360 4 months ago
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The act of the magnet counteracts gravity. The magnetic force lifting the weights into a higher potential energy state causes the weights to resist falling thus not providing the downward force needed to turn the wheel. But, if you can overcome these principles and other laws of physics then maybe it will run forever. Nice graphic explanation and it really got me thinking. Thanks!
TheNehemiah5 5 months ago
@TheNehemiah5 The strength of the magnets will wear out over time, the problem with all the machines which seem to work in the short term that are based on magnets is that those magnets took a lot of energy to make that powerful, and they will lose their magnetic strength, it just takes longer than most people have patience to sit and watch for :)
Viruzzz 1 day ago
Comment removed
TheNehemiah5 5 months ago
none of this will never work stop wasting time the math dosenot add up
Danielm1997 5 months ago
I think it would work, if you compressed the whole machine in helium. Research I have personaly done, shows helium removes weight and friction. Compression of helium adds a affect of less ox or zero atmosfere. Under spacific preperation metods, of the material inside the chamber you can also add nitrogen as a lube. Cheers to your good thinking.
Workmule4ever2day 5 months ago
1. friction at the wheel wont help perpetual motion at all
2.magnets are not permanent and this might get in your way too :)
clauclaux 6 months ago
@clauclaux neo magnets last minimum 20 years
Archurian 6 months ago
i'm sorry, but this device won't work
SieNieZnamy 6 months ago
would work without friction or magnets decaying etc but that's not how the world works lol
steebunn 6 months ago
The only physical reason this wheel would ever turn is to reach a lower energy state, just like falling down or moving attracting magnets together.
Given that it is cyclic and thus repeats its positions and energy states it should be clear that it can't work. For it to work it would need to keep finding lower and lower energy states, not repeating the same ones.
What you are trying to do is like making a circular track that goes down forever. It can't be done.
chrisofnottingham 8 months ago
Having magnets critical to the design make it not perpetual anyway.
Rangasoup 9 months ago
Love the design,
idea of using 2 forms of energy, fantastic!
But would'nt both enrgy forms eventually balence each other out? Similar to a body pulling an object with x newtons and an opposing body pushing the body with x newton with the forces acting in opposite directions the body stays stationary.
What if we made this design more 3 dimensional? :)
wibbilly wobbly timey wimey :P
notyetarab 9 months ago
This method does not work. The thought is that the weight of the magnets is off to one side, therefore the weight has leverage to rotate the wheel. But, the "moment of inertia" is a oval, and not a circle, and therefore it does not rotate freely.
archon808 9 months ago
lol conservation of angular momentum?.... fail
jobriq5 10 months ago
That's new, adding gravity and magnetic stair cases. Good concept but still doesn't cut it. It looks like a simple spinning flywheel with a lot of friction and some imbalance in terms of physics.
xXxGenasai 10 months ago
This is an example of not understanding physics... have fun wasting your time... as though you're the first person to think/try this kind of thing...
TheReasonWhyGuy 11 months ago
I wouldn't invest more than 500,000,00 dollars in this.
Fuliginosus 11 months ago
@Fuliginosus i wouldn't invest more than 50 cents in this, because free energy is impossible.
rawheas 10 months ago
@rawheas free energy is easy, (eg: u won free energy from a company for life lol) i know what u meant just word it a little better next time
Berchunga 10 months ago
i love this design. ive come up with a few that will work with magnets also. by i hope you realize this wont work, and neither will any other perpetual motion machine. awesome design though.
EpicSqrl 11 months ago
Nice drawing and good idea but it wont work.
phtmexplo 1 year ago
If a magnet has enough pull to move the weights that same pull will hold the wheel still.
ourtrashcans 1 year ago
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True Free energy devices exist,But Millions are spend in supressing that information,Get the blueprints for a free energy motor at LT-MAGNET-MOTORdotCOM ,Big change is comming soon!
hungarylnnjsd 1 year ago
overunitydotcom 1 year ago
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qvadi 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Free Energy is real and its here but the coverup is strong, if u are interested in a REAL free energy magnet motor then
just go to LT-MAGNET-MOTORdotCOM and download the blueprints ,it is probably the ONLY working magnet
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baccaratbargaineq 1 year ago
If the magnits are used only to keep the blue weights at the maximum momentum, the you can use another inner circle that restrict the weights of going in the center. (sorry for my english)
vladkosz 1 year ago
Nice idea. Systems move in order to reach lower energy states. Rocks fall down, compressed springs try to expand etc
Each rotation by one segment of this wheel looks the same as every other rotation hence it has the same energy. Because it is not reaching a lower energy state there will be no tendency for it to move.
The magnets are arranged symmetrically and thus cancel out. The rest is a classic "Overbalanced Wheel".
In practice it will turn slightly until it reaches an equilibrium point.
chrisofnottingham 1 year ago
I do not speak in english and really can't write - sorry. Since more as 10 years I dreaming something like this. Slowly (very much) I can believe that it's working if ...
Did you do "any-thing". Or only idé. Das it work. Did you see it? I know that it has no sence to make power, but would be good to prezentálni. So, if you think, give me a contact - and I'll learn angolul. De ha értjük egymást, akkor - biztos imered a viccet: Há mé beszélünk angolul? Gratulation. Just I'm arrived - just to same.
jacintflamingo 1 year ago
@jacintflamingo : This graphics just from my idea,
not yet build or do anything.
My email ::: last-aekk@hotmail.com
lastaekk 1 year ago
Kids, this is your brain on drugs. Stay in school!
kasmackba 1 year ago
This is quite similar in its topology to a rotary wankel engine, which is a very clever machine. Perhaps you should turn to inventing things which aren't thermodynamically impossible?
d60pmp 1 year ago
Super graphics.But this method will not workout best wishes. Stallard
Stallard1970 1 year ago
"without any fritcion it would work..." yeah, the weel of my bike would do the same.
rasmokv 1 year ago
Everyone interested in gravity wheels should also look at this design
chalkalis.blogspot . com
lespaul49 1 year ago
If is was not for friction, this construct would work, however there is always a loss
in any system. This loss is called entropy.
johnroach1 1 year ago
I think it is very good
causevskinikola 1 year ago
the inner circle prevents the movement of the magnet inside, but it still applies a force to the circle
I don't know where the force will go, but I'm pretty sure it stops this thing from working
sweet graphics, but learn physics, and stop listening to crack pots. but, you said you didn't test it, so you probably knew it wouldn't work, so, good on you
LordVigeous666999 1 year ago
I invented a breakthrough energy source which violates the law of conservation of energy. I have a PROOF that there are electrodynamic phenomena which violate the law of energy conservation. I am looking for $30 000 for a prototype and $3M for patents. Making a 6 kW generator will cost $1200 in mass production, value of the energy produced per year $5400.
H. Tomasz Grzybowski
tel. +48-512-933-540
henrykay01 1 year ago
Peenum's Law: "All animated perpetual motion machines work, until you build one."
LiamXaoh 1 year ago
Wouldn't it have to have curved mag slides to act as a ramp?
M1ST3RHYDE 1 year ago
Best you can accomplish is perpetual MOVEMENT. That is, eliminate any and all friction and other energy loss and the wheel will keep turning. This does not equal free energy though.
Arianyr 1 year ago
perpetual movement itself is a great feat to be done though,imagine the endless
electrical energy that could be powered by a perpetual motion machine!
infoseeker228 1 year ago
@infoseeker228
Yes it would be a great feat, because eliminating all friction and other losses to sustain the movement is as good as impossible.
But if you had a perpetual movement machine, it would not give endless electrical energy because it would lose movement.
Net gain is always zero. You can not WIN energy, only transform it.
Arianyr 1 year ago
If it works, why don't you do it and get rich?
joarezpj 1 year ago
@joarezpj This machine is perpetuating energy, not generating it. It is like a battery, only storing energy you put in.
stevenray3 1 year ago
easy to build in theory but a different story in practice
infoseeker228 1 year ago
a lot of great minds have been hit with "that won't work" or "that's impossible". It's worth it to try any idea, regardless of its plausibility. We obviously don't know everything there is to know about physics, otherwise these problems will be solved. Who knows what we may find out?
adkatrit 1 year ago
a lot of great minds have been hit with "that won't work" or "that's impossible". It's worth it to try any idea, regardless of its plausibility. We obviously don't know everything there is to know about physics, otherwise these problems will be solved. Who knows what we may find out?
adkatrit 1 year ago
ITS FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE if it was the world would just self destruct
lc123666 1 year ago
I don't understand the orientation of the magnets. If the inner circle is used to prevent further movement of the magnets (to get a difference in momentum) then I think the magnets in one row should each be rotated 180 degrees.
So in this case the concept AND design are wrong if you ask me.
What does the double arrow by the magnet mean? A changing magnetic field? That will cost energy too.
SCRTpilot 1 year ago
@SCRTpilot double arrow mean the magnet can move up and down along the rod you lock the arms to prevent rotating then aligning position of all magnet like this (right hand side far from the center than the left) start testing by unlock the arms if the arms can rotate to 45 degree, it will rotate forever. if not , this is the wrong idea.
lastaekk 1 year ago
@lastaekk Maybe if you had your outer magnets angled correctly it might stand a little bit more of a chance... you have a few of them pushing counter to the direction you're trying to go.
burninmunkeys 1 year ago
I have been thinking of something sorta similar, but w/o the magnets. The core problem: how to return weights to starting point, using less energy than is produced. Since we already have PROVEN LINEAR (ie 'one way') GRAVITY machines (water wheels and hydropower turbines), rotary devices are nescessarily ruled out!
PacificCircle1 1 year ago
Not perpetual - even if it had almost no friction, the magnets lose a little but of energy every time they attract or repulse, and the energy required to make the magnets magnetic was much more than will ever be released by them.
RCbeastly 1 year ago
Passive rotating systems can never show perpetual motion because the energy state for any particular position is the same in every rotation. If the energy states are the same then the system will eventually stop because the only thing moving it is its tendency to move into a lower energy state.
You need is an infinity long slope. Or a circular track that goes downhill forever. These two suggestions are no sillier than this video but people get confused by magnets and believe the impossible.
chrisofnottingham 1 year ago
Lets just ignore basics facts of physics and call it a day.
dante666diaz 1 year ago
smart, but i don't think it would even work in real life (there are a lot of factors that simulations leave out). And even if it did, it would have to be GARGANTUAN just to produce a small amount of energy.
Blibber14 1 year ago
oh I see, G stands for Gravity. makes sense.
Rachman1337 1 year ago
Only useful if it can generate power.
You'd need the absolute minimum of friction in the bearings.... think floating magnetic bearings (although that might interfer with your push/pull magnets)
Good luck!
misterG2006 1 year ago
It's a clever way to change energy forms, but I'm not sure how practical it would be, given the amount of magnets required to produce enough energy to make it significant. Bonus points for creativity though.
Postscript624 1 year ago
magnet magneticy will end by the time. earth magnetic will take it. and i saw 1 vid where something like this was showed. its gonna go for long long time but u will need to change magnets time per time
KillDastY 1 year ago
instead of condemning the ideas, or using software that won't substantiate the ideas, build a prototype, and try, sacha4 you seem to want to pay for energy. shivra you seem to be the optimist, and perpetual energy in its definition may not exist but how about something that produces 5X's it supplying energy and can run for years???
DMonRoeC 1 year ago 2
smart idea
try it please
maybe it works!!
who know?
if it works you will be rich man
you need some time
some hard working
khenum123 1 year ago
Except it's not perpetual energy. You would have to be able to get more work out of the system than you would be required to put in. Gravity and magnetism are input energies, and you have friction loss in addition to output work.
Grospoliner 2 years ago
Well actually perpetual motion would only require that the energy out be 100% equal to the energy in. Which technically could be done because energy can neither be created or destroyed. But the energy does not all go where we want it to go. Some gets lost in the form of heat from the friction. Some is lost in the form of sound from the vibration. We can not go over 100% effecience but it also seems highly unlikely we will ever reach 100% either because theres just too many losses to account for
kurisu925 1 year ago
Theoretically yeah, but we can't actually have a frictionless surface. It's physically impossible. Even in extremely smooth surfaces there ends up being a vacuum effect (I forget the name just now).
Grospoliner 1 year ago
Well the only way I could think of to create pupetual motion would be to Have an object spinning in an absolute vaccume and even then you would have to eliminate all external forces such as gravity and magnetic force nomatter how small. Essentially for it to work the spinning object would have to be the only object in existance throughout the universe. Any other object would slow it down over time with it's gravity.
kurisu925 1 year ago
I like this design. It combines magnetic drive with a standard gravity wheel. Why not build one and see if it works?
caltropter 2 years ago
I sugest the use of a software that simulates this project.
A good software is Algodoo, (i use it for myself).
With this software you may simulate gravity, magnets, lasers, etc.
When i see a REALLY creative idea, i test it in Algodoo and i see if it works, without having to spend any money buying parts.
Unhappily, most of the ideas about gravity/magnetic machines i test with Algodoo don't work.
jotacril 2 years ago
cut the trees down and will stop raining.
mcnowski 2 years ago
if you think about it , a damn is free energy. We the people dont have to put the rain in the clouds to fill the lakes. mother nature does that for us.
kirbienstien 2 years ago
@kirbienstien
Are you talking about a dam? The sun does that. It's not free energy, because eventually the sun will burn out.
I'm not saying it's a great system, it's just not 'free energy'.
helmutlord 2 years ago
Where there is motion there is heat. Heat engery that will radiate away from the device which means that it will eventually stop. Maybe it is more efficient that other devices, but perpetual...nope.
Add in the friction of the rotation, the magnets sliding up and down the rods and gravity pulling against the magnets on the up cycle and its over.
Very cleaver though. Thumbs up for thinking outside of the box on this one.
mjs28s 2 years ago
Good graphics, but, it won't work.
shivrajvishnu 2 years ago 18
shivrajvishnu, it doesn't matter. The most important thing is, people believe in perpetua mobile and waste millions of workhours in failing attempts, we can watch on YT. Further advantage: Perpetua-mobile scam industry will grow further - what drives our economy.
;-))
sacha4you 2 years ago
What I saw in the graphic it is not a perpetual movement. I explain.
The magnets of the rigth in the wheel, what pull down the wheel by gravity, make more force when are in a long distance from center. But if you see well, when are in the left of wheel, they are more magnets than in the rigth, so the force of gravity is the same in the rigth and in the left
NapalmCandy 2 years ago
either way it can't run forever laws of thermodynamics prevent this
shadowman080 2 years ago 16
@shadowman080 we made those laws, we, theoretically, can destroy them...
MPX4132 1 year ago
@MPX4132 We didn't make the laws, nature did. We can't break them.
Adkit2 1 year ago
@Adkit2 were human, were the only (at least we think we are) intelligent species, WE made the laws, WE wrote them down, WE can brake them, do you understand my point now? >=l
MPX4132 1 year ago
@MPX4132 We didn't make the laws of physics. We DISCOVERED the laws of physics. big difference.
Valendros 1 year ago
@Valendros Nope, in the long run, if you see the real point, we invented the word discover, guess what, WE made everything, all of our beliefs are, guess.., our beliefs! It's us that made everything, it's us that make things real, without us, there's no laws of physics... the laws of physics without us are still there... We can destroy any law since it's our belief... understand now... not yet i bet...
MPX4132 1 year ago
@MPX4132 Sounds like you need to really BELIEVE you can fly off a skyscraper.
Sorry to burst your little power trip, but the universe was being governed by the laws of physics we've discovered (and some that we haven't yet) for billions of years before Humankind came along and will continue to do so long after we're gone.
You want to get into a philosophical debate about a chair being a chair only because we say it is, that's down the hall in touchy-feely 101.
Valendros 1 year ago
@Valendros touchy-feely, that's your point of view my friend, think of what you say, get into the physiological state of mind and check out what i mean, good luck, and I can bet whatever we will brake those laws eventually, some things have, and we still don't know yet... we're too young to understand much... how sad we're probably going to die whit out knowing the truth...
MPX4132 1 year ago
@MPX4132 Even if we do circumvent the laws via some yet-unknown technology. Again, it simply means the laws we have discovered were incomplete and were in need of revision to incorporate the new data.
Discovering new things is not 'breaking physical laws' of the universe.
Valendros 1 year ago
@MPX4132 I like your way of thinking, but remember you can't abolish a law of physics without having sufficient data to prove it wrong, and without coming up with a new law that explains all prexisting experimental data and your new "anomoly" of data. Similar to how maxwell altered faraday's laws in order to come up with his infamous equations to unify the electromagnetic forces. In other words people would rather have a flawed working equation than no equation at all. Go experiment ;o).
Lesshardtofind 1 year ago
@shadowman080 How does thermodynamics prevent this. I don't understand still.
mariomanj12 1 year ago
@shadowman080 if it take 1kw to lift an object to height 1m it will create 1kw when it falls 1m if it is lifted halfway and lifts itself the rest of the way costing only 500 watts then it produces more energy than it requires or can self propell, newton was an idiot this video is the only one showing both the machine performing the task and has all specs, no other video in history has this youtube.com/watch?v=jFazyyPh2iQ
Archurian 6 months ago
If You use electricity too You may get a very efficient Hybrid (electicity would be used only to escape magnetic gate, when the Push will be executed by magnets).
PleasureTV 2 years ago
it doesn't work - because the first magnet in the "Atraction Stator" wouldn't let the rotor spin in a direction where the attraction is less than it has at begining of the stator. and the "Repulsion Stator" has no enough push power
PleasureTV 2 years ago
xtcsx... I agree whole heartedly.. I've been tinkering with rechargeable toy helicopter engines to see if thats possible.. Its a wonderful concept, unfortunately not perpetual... 'I think''
PandorzThoughtz 2 years ago
So I have been researching the concept of the magnet motor and I realize that repulsion moreso than attraction will cause the magnet to deplete its magnetic properties... nobody is talking about using the generated electricity to recharge the magnets as its working.. to me this appears to be one of the missing links.. same thing with electric cars.. the wheels are spinning... USE THAT... thats how electricity is generated in the first place.. If you make the machine say xtcsx on youtube gave it
xtcsx 2 years ago
You would be using electricity to power the wheels to power the motor to power the wheels, there's no room for energy to actually move the car.
A vehicle converts chemical energy into mechanical energy (at less than 100%, too). Anyway that you try to re harvest the mechanical energy back to chemical energy, you loose mechanical energy as well as energy in the transfer process
djembeing 2 years ago
that would not work as the friction between the moving magnetic things that are blue and the small circle would waste energy
suupertramp 2 years ago
The magnet would lose its magnetism? You have probably thought this through more thoroughly, could you explain?
BlockisticStudios 2 years ago
I beleive it doesnt work because the weight of the blue magnets has been reduced to nothing because they are now being held by the magnet field. Which makes me wonder what would happen if the magnets are only put on the horizontal axis.
sebsworld0 2 years ago
Does anyone know what sort of software was used or can be used to model such simulations? I've tried from toon-boom to Maya and find neither to be particularly suitable.
smudgepost 2 years ago
This is not a simulation, it's an animation, and the difference is that the former relies on the laws of physics, the later on the free imagination of the programmer.
And no, this device doesn't work either. Both gravity and magnetic fields are conservative, meaning that no net energy is added when a magnet has completed a closed loop.
nesnahsleort 2 years ago
Perpetum Mobile Doesnt EXIST! ! :)
SubtitleDave 2 years ago 2
And that is?
BlockisticStudios 2 years ago
Bullshit
SubtitleDave 2 years ago
Candied Apples dipped in frogs.
BlockisticStudios 2 years ago
what about at the end of the superman movie, when the bad guys were captured into a record which was then throw out spinning into space? are you saying they've stopped spinning by now?
vonnneumann 2 years ago
sorry I misread something please disregard
vonnneumann 2 years ago
Unfortunately, magnets do not last forever.
a9gould 2 years ago
This doesn't work.
This is because any magnet (purple and Yellow) that can pull a Blue magnet to it is strong enough to push up the other magnets on the other side, regardless of the other attraction forces.
Therefore, it does not work
good attempt though.
Goody2shoesambe 2 years ago
Yep, there are several ancient attempts also relying on the gravity solution, very similar to yours but friction eats up everything and the resulting force equals on both sides of the machine, so there's no movement at all. :)
There's no perpetuum mobile. The universe doesn't allow stuff like that ;)
albedoshader 2 years ago
alles kaputt
K1ngstone 2 years ago
¡ɟdoʞ ɯǝp ɟnɐ ʇɥǝʇs ʇxǝʇ ɹǝsǝıp
lightnings0ul 2 years ago
DOES. NOT. WORK. DUH.
J1428753 2 years ago
the magnets would repel the metal slugs before they got to the point where they need to be repelled.
bobmcgelin51 3 years ago
So if they don't need to be repelled, why would the magnets repell them. Not because they're nice. Calculate the gravitational and electromagnetic potential energies and the kinetic energies of the slugs and see what you get.
johnnyswatts 2 years ago
your momma said last night was impossible
krazeekooladam 3 years ago
and your night was impossible last momma!
skaribou 3 years ago
this would only work if there was no such thing as friction, and you would have to give it a push. No worky.
krazeekooladam 3 years ago
=O omg a push! thats impossible!
Exoskull969 3 years ago
It will work with friction. to quote mythbusters, "when in doubt, lube."
naetoru99 3 years ago
And the Mythbusters would also tell you that the laws of thermodynamics prohibit a perpetual motion machine. I mean, the whole point of these things is to generate usable energy, right? Who cares if it moves forever? Plenty of things move forever, but if we cannot harvest the energy of motion to actually DO something the contraption is, quite literally, of no use.
johnnyswatts 2 years ago
screw therodynamics, we're better off without them!
naetoru99 2 years ago
Except, you can extract energy from a magnet.
dohead123456 2 years ago
Yeah, but you have to actually do work to get energy from a magnet. That's how a dynamo works. And if you want to use that energy in the usual way (electricity) you will lose energy due to resisance.
johnnyswatts 2 years ago
You can't lose energy, idiot. My statement is exactly correct, in answer to the "you would have to give it a push" comment. Stop trying to act smart.
dohead123456 2 years ago
way to out a balance
Beckstar1221 3 years ago
The magnets would not attract the metal slugs from that great of distance. Nor would it move it that much.
JayZoop 3 years ago
Magnetism extends to infinity. But you're right: this dog won't hunt.
johnnyswatts 2 years ago
none of ur vids make any sence
uawwildbob 3 years ago
never mind
uawwildbob 3 years ago
what would hold the ener wheel to the outer wheel ?
uawwildbob 3 years ago
well the gravity force that drags down the weight of magnet(on the wheel) is to small to overcome the force that down magnets push up the wheel!
nicknafp 3 years ago
whats that program
mrek94 3 years ago
Consider the energy required to raise a weight. e = mass x g x height. Note that it's the height from start to finish not the length of the route taken. It's much the same with iron and magnets. The energy gained by the iron approaching the magnet is thet same as that required to remove it - regardless of the route taken (vertically, horizontally etc). Overall net sum zero. Nothing left to overcome friction.
ColinWatters 3 years ago
exactly!!! the route taken does not affect the energy required to lift an object against gravity... otherwise you would have invented the infinite energy source... but thats impossible my friend
rsolano60 3 years ago
I'm currently constructing a prototype that has similar mechanics. You should also build a cheap prototype first.
You don't need $20,000 to make one. I estimate $50-$75 dollars.
For the main spinning/ axle part I'm using an old fan ($10)...Will also use plastic tubing ($10) from Home Depo...Magnets ($20), plexi-glass ($10), Foam board to cut out and make a wheel ($5)
AnonymousX2 3 years ago
good luck, tell me how it works out
MrBubbaloo 3 years ago
Haahahahahahahahahahahaha ... what a piece of crap. Perpetual?? Not even slightly. Haha! Magnets, seen for the first time in his life??? The force of the magnets that repel the wheel is exactly the same force you need to exert to move the wheel into the magnetic field. A simple exchange of kinetic and potential energy. It is like trying to gain energy through a ball which rolls downhill. After some time you need to roll it uphill. As simple as that. What a Billy Bob hick!
joaquinveyron 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
dont waste your time... that wont work
rsolano60 3 years ago
funny!
please visit my magnet motor concept
Musaic 3 years ago
Why should I? It is the same crap!
joaquinveyron 3 years ago
any device being propelled or pushed by magnets to cause this continuous is truly not perpetual. magnets do die over time but finding a way to charge them in the process is another question to be answered.
bigserb001 3 years ago
There are several attempts to get this to work on youtube.
If the magnets are strong enough to lift the rods vertically against gravity...how can gravity also be strong enough to allow the rod to escape from the magnets?
Remember the energy required to remove a bit of iron from a magnet to infinity does not depend on the route the iron takes.
ColinWatters 3 years ago 2
You got it, my friend, also I didn't understand the sentence about the "infinity does not depend on the route the iron takes." (??)
joaquinveyron 3 years ago
There is a similar concept on another video and he put a fixed magnet in the middel also. so it attracts on the left and repls on the right.
I think I will be building one just to see that it works.
vzon17 3 years ago
I came up with a similar design 7 years ago but never built it. They say that those who invent perpetual motion machines are mad and will end up poor and alone if they persue them. But if they let it go, they usually go on to greatness. The very fact that you can devise such a machine, whether it works or not, is a sign of genius. I never built a prototype of my machine, but seeing yours has inspired me to start looking into it again. Thank you, my fellow mad genius.
warforequality 3 years ago 2
so basically your a genius cause you never built your idea or even know if it works or not?
yea right.
As for saying "The very fact that you can devise such a machine, whether it works or not, is a sign of genius" if flawed. Sounds like "no child left behind" mentality.
Of course I thot of something (that didnt work 30 years ago) so I must be...
;)
AlmostHydrogen 3 years ago
There's a book called Perpetual Motion machine and that's where i got my info. To say that I am not genius without knowing me is a bit flawed. But then again, what do I know. I'm mad.
warforequality 3 years ago
i came exactly to this concept 12 years ago and i never constructed it either - less expensive is to do experiments in your mind ;-) the key was to unbalance the permanent forces by screwing the geometry. in my ideas i came even into using magnetic fluid (see videos of such the liquid on youtube) instead of pistons, in order to obtain continuous gradient. and when you think about employing the liquid, you can imagin more easily why it will not work.
undokat 3 years ago
Doesn't work with fluid because there is no center of mass, the rods use the new inner circles center as the center of mass. Without the rods you can't get more weight on one side than the other. After centuries of using center of mass principle for weighing people we've come short. Theoretical RPM is caused by gravity 1G, now what do you think would happen if RMP was accelerated by engine to 20K? Magnets+ electromagnets to reduce frict.With a mirror-image replica next to it. Inertial motion? ;D
ZionistWorldOrder 3 years ago
in the case of fluid, you can get more weight on one side by enlarging the diameter of a pipe leading the fluid, respectively on the side where the weight falls down you use higher volume of the pipe. magnets and gravity should work like a pump. but there will be no circular flow, i think the answer is in Bernoulli's equations. in the case of magnets its a problem of physical arms. for simplicity don start with 6 arms, but only one magnet, tweo oposite ones, then two perpendicular arms..
undokat 3 years ago
moving magnets must be on the right direction
- south pole on the outside of the circle
- north pole on the inside of the circle
I don't understand about magnetic fluid ,
How can I setup for the right direction of north pole or south pole ?
lastaekk 3 years ago
This design will not work ,as the linear movement takes too long and causes too much friction......
MAPSRG 3 years ago
interesting...
chessmaster2000 3 years ago
you gotta test it!
grandexandi 3 years ago
Not yet.
I just thinking.
If it won't work, may be friction of the moving magnet
lastaekk 3 years ago
yeah, that's what i thought too... but even so, i think this is the best model i've ever seen. the friction must be minimal. it gets me so excited, lol
actually, it gets me kinda confused, because i can't see what could make it stop, why wouldn't it work. i just think that it wouldn't because perpetual motion seems impossible... but i gotta tell you, this design is twisting my mind!
grandexandi 3 years ago
Here's what will make it fail: if you take energy OUT to do WORK this system will have LESS ENERGY and will RUN DOWN. That's assuming that this thing is completely frictionless which just isn't so. See if you can make one that runs faster and faster as time passes like Lisa did on the Simpsons. Oh, why did Homer throw that contraption away?..
johnnyswatts 2 years ago 3
yeah... i know, but... but... lol. it does seem like there can't be enough friction to stop it... i'm such a romantic full of hope today...
are you really sure it won't work? even with magnets and gravity? lol
grandexandi 2 years ago
youre da man!
lightnings0ul 2 years ago
am i? ok... i am! yeeeah
grandexandi 2 years ago
why won't it work?
grandexandi 3 years ago 2
I think your design is one of the more clever designs I've seen. I'm wondering, though, if it would be equally effective if opposing working weights were attached to each other and only the upper magnets were in place?
pimpachu 3 years ago
One small step - check out my latest vid, we must be getting closer
furzeham 3 years ago
but would it work in reality. i think not.
spanishaustralian 3 years ago
Inner circle real or just figurative?
conceptmachine 4 years ago
Just figurative ...
lastaekk 4 years ago
wow! very smart idea, thanks for posting it so we can copy it ! ive done that with my tesla radiant device as well,its something different, but might hold another avenue of free energy stuff sort of. urs is the best gravity wheel idea ives seen. good work
boxa888 3 years ago
Nice
goldocoasto 4 years ago