A demonstration of VHS generation loss

[crowdzor]

I think this would have been a better video if just had the original audio

[DarkAndMartyr]

I like the choon, but i wish you had copied the audio 11 times to see how that decayed also.

[galaxywarper92]

This is why I'm eventually converting all of my VHS tapes to DVD; especially ones that documented road trips, family and friend get togethers, and home movies. DVD's aren't perfect either, but VHS tend to be more fragile to the elements and manhandling. Not to mention as this video shows, however depressing and creepy it maybe, you can only copy and preserve VHS's for so long.

[SebiStudios2]

Still better than digital.

[FIX97]

Very nice video, you could make a horror movie using old VHS, it's really creepy after generation 5 :P

[dieselboy87]

hey zenpho are you aware that this video has since become the topic of an urban legend, supposedly bringing misfortune and even insanity to people who watch it for too long? just thought you'd like to know. :P

[jeffjana]

End of 2:43 is a skeleton in bottom left!

[Azartusfar]

Don't worry, Autism effects many kids your age.

[whalewhalewhale]

so i get there's the commonality with basinski with how it degrades, but I reckon it probably shares more with 'i am sitting in a room' by alvin lucier just kind of the way the composite elements become more and more simplified or generalised? I suppose the disintegration loops is a sort of graduation from lucier... Great video anyway.

[extremehockeyfan]

if you kept making more generations, the tape would eventually have nothing on it and it would just be pure static :) thanks for making this!!

[444damn]

how did you make the audio on this?

[zenpho]

@444damn

Thanks for asking about this. More details about the setup I used are up at zenpho.co.uk/toshiba.shtml

The full soundtrack is also up at zenpho.co.uk/retail.shtml#dx10

Hope this helps,

[HLM190586]

I don't know why when I watch video that comes from VHS, i think of 70s porn. :)

[jjovereats]

LP mode

[ZOMGUsetheforce]

VHS tapes get grayer as it gets older. Just like humans!

[zenpho]

@ZOMGUsetheforce Hehe. I guess you're right. ;o)

[jjovereats]

They degrade "MUCH" more slowly when copied in PAL using SCART connectors OR CVBS inputs.

[mstblue]

This sure gets creepy after the 6th generation.

[konoha1993]

thats kinda cool, but somehow the movie "The Ring" comes to mind here.

[DerPoltergeist13]

@konoha1993 I was about to say the same thing. Especially around 1:00 or so.

[ElasticMinds]

what a beatiful work of art this is. From watching this video im trying the same thing with my vcrs, so far im on generation 5, and the source was footage shot on a Canon 7D in 1080p. so far the image is beginning to get a bit unstable but is holding its color excellently. I probably need crappier vcrs to get this level of degregation you got here. Excellent work!

[VikutaaChyaaruzu]

Now THIS is what I call originality, and I am NOT being sarcastic about it.

In fact, I never knew how many generations a VHS recording could last... until now. Nice job. :D

[HomerShipman]

ps.thanks 4 turning me on 2 william basinski

[HomerShipman]

very hypnotic,i can feel my mind decaying as i watch this-str8 2 favourites!

[HoneycombAgent]

Sure, does this effect impact S-Video machines?

[skynet091287]

This could be a great party quiz! get 5 different movies, do this to the point where they are almost impossible to watch, and then have people guess what movie it is :)

[VikutaaChyaaruzu]

@skynet091287

I remember "Nickelodeon Arcade" did something similar to that with their Video Repairman puzzle, except they used music videos from popular artists of the time instead of movies, and the puzzle simulated a cable system going kaput instead of a VHS taping losing its quality generation after generation.

[zacoogioog]

can i download that music anywhere?

[zenpho]

@zacoogioog You certainly can! The full album is up at zenpho.co.uk/retail.shtml#dx10

Also some more info at zenpho.co.uk/toshiba.shtml

Enjoy!

[ChuckTaylorBoy321]

idk y but the static looks sexy for some odd reason

[blindmansarrow]

simply beautiful! you did a fantastic job with the visuals. you should upload it without the writing at all, though, please, just let it b e the video some time?

[zenpho]

@blindmansarrow I found the original master tapes the other day, and I made a whole albums worth of music to go with this....

Your comment made me think about producing an extended DVD version soon, one with more footage to go with the rest of the music I made (plus the original video without captions, as you requested). I'll let you know when it's done.

[blindmansarrow]

@zenpho really, please do. it seems like this would be good full-length/post-full-length (3 hours or more) zomeout session. much appreciated

[Yazoku]

Iv had 6th maybe even 7th generation looking VHS tapes before. Pretty annoying when something rare and cool is recorded on it and you can bearly even watch it. But VHS tapes were awesome. I like the glitchyness, colour changing, fuzzle and low quality of them. VHS tapes are better for retro value than DVDs anyday

[zjc92]

Watched this right before I watched Videodrome...bad call maybe?

[MEKON17]

thank you for this !

[anothercountyheard]

This relates to GLITCH ART and the Industrial artists of the early 80's refered to it as "scratch video" Caberet Voltaire was an early practitioner of this...Your audio track goes with it wonderfully.

[8uiop1]

that's some fuckin' great ambient music right here

[zenpho]

@8uiop1

Wheee~ thanks for the kind words... I checked out your stuff on bandcamp and I really like "Rainy Day" on holycrapwhattheocalypse.

[TTULangGenius]

I wanted to comment further.

This is why I love analog technology. I grew up with it and it will always hold a place in my heart. Thank you for making this video.

[zenpho]

@TTULangGenius

Thanks for the kind comments. I'm glad you liked it. I've always been fascinated by different media formats. Even digital media formats have a character to them. I love the way VHS video signals decay tho. ;o)

I checked out some of your videos - it's lovely to see the step by step restoration of that medium format Brownie camera. Great stuff!

[TTULangGenius]

There is a very sublime quality to this video of "technological decay." I find the music haunting, yet it matches the images in the video perfectly. I like it. Good job!

[qaiken]

i found this so disturbing for some reason

[zenpho]

@qaiken

Thanks for the comment. I've always loved the how particular quirks, design decisions , and flaws can define a machine or a media format. I have a particular fondness for the way VHS machines work.

It's interesting that you say you found my video disturbing, whilst I made it full of love, admiration, and nostalgia for a dying format.

[qaiken]

@zenpho Oh definitely, and I thank you for making this video. I guess what I found disturbing really is that I pictured this happening to all my favorite VHS tapes I had growing up! Beautiful video.

[Wurm1220]

super!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!MFG WURM1220

[lostinidentity]

Simply disturbing. This video is like a metaphor for human memory.

[JAMESveeder]

You make beautiful drones.

The main pad/drone in this song in the background is so damn nostalgic.

[zenpho]

@JAMESveeder

Thanks! There full thing is up as an album called "DX10 tape loops" on my site at zenpho.co.uk

[JAMESveeder]

@zenpho I actually went ahead and bought it. I'll tell you what I think when I give it a listen.

And I'm not sure if you're interested at all, but I have my own electronically based music project: soundcloud . com / markets. I'd love to know what you think.

[AnimeFanPan]

it's why it's best to put the vhs video on digital stuff like a dvd or convert it to a video file on your computer =D

[guimbadriver]

in u matic video tape this dont happens using the off tape ediction..another video tape machine that dont loss the quality in copy generation is the IVC9000 analogue video tape

[999manman]

This is the scariest , yet artiest film /demonstration I have seen in years.

ENTROPY LIVES!!!!

[rtbvhsrip]

But, if you would timebase correct / framesync the signal during copying, only image quality would degrade, but color carrier and Sync may stay preserved, as TBC outputs a "clean" video signal.

[zenpho]

@rtbvhsrip

That's a great idea! I've never laid eyes on a time base corrector. If I can get hold of a TBC box I'll definitely try this experiment again.

I was a shame that the decay was so rapid with this video. I'd love to see if stabilising the sync would reveal more subtle degradations of the image.

[rtbvhsrip]

@zenpho Well, i have a full frame TBC and an old surveillance SVHS VCR and i'll try this once myself with my own footage (recording a computer output, then copying through the TBC multiple times). The TBC managed to correct a jumpy picture on a around 20 years old cartoon tape.

You can get cheap TBC from (i think this is the store name:) Lectropacks or Letropacks.

[TimmermanV]

Bring me the red pages!

[zenpho]

@TimmermanV

you must release me from this book

[Neonman78]

How long is each generation?

[Omicron91]

This is incredibly melancholic and sad. It's like the slow loss of information as a microcosm for entropy :(

[zenpho]

@Omicron91

Yeah. I felt the same way when making it. Even though the loss of a signal or information is a sad thing - I find the slow decay of signals (audio, video, etc) really beautiful and fascinating.

Every signal-path is unique, with its own signature collection of losses; it's captivating to see those signatures slowly take shape when amplified through repetition.

[IAmFurby090]

Saddening how this good ol' technology will never be watched again a long time from now. Including the fact that the kiddies then will say "What's a VHS?"

[OBSysteme]

@IAmFurby090 Oh, I think retro-nuts will keep it alive... just like Vinyl made a niche comback.... video on tape and audio on tape will hold on, some-how, because it has desirable physical attributes I think... I still put stuff to VHS tape and Cassettes.. all that is needed is reasonable quality decks and cleaning maintenance : ) cheers!

[thomasmhyttel]

Hi - how did you transfer the vhsvideo to digital?

(I’ve tried once to transfer from vhs to minidv but it looks not exactly the same)

[zenpho]

@thomasmhyttel

This was a while ago so I transferred in a slightly roundabout way. I recorded the signal from the tape using a DVD-R recorder then editing/titling/recompressing the stream from the disk. Nowadays I use a USB capture box for transferring VHS / Hi8.

[derpguyjohn]

for some reason this reminds me of S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

[zenpho]

@derpguyjohn Well that's a great compliment then, the atmosphere of S.T.A.L.K.E.R is super dark and moody. Glad you liked the video!

[lemonrind]

Fascinating.

[kurisux]

Hmn, proper use of this effect in cinema efforts could lead to interesting segments in sci-fi / horror films of a certain type.

[mrnmrn1]

It was PAL or NTSC recording? I'm very surprised it's lost colour signal and synchronism that soon. I've tried the same some years ago with an old and sick Funai VHS player and an also Funai recorder ( I think the recorder was a more than 20 years old piece of Funai V3EE type) , and the fifth generation copy has still nearly perfect colours, just the S/N ratio became terrible. Unfortunately I've missed that recording, I should repeat it ;-)

[CanberraUser]

I read this very interesting site that not only talks about generational loss in analog copying, but also everything (given enough time) will turn to dust. ".....The thousandth copy would be very indistinct. By the millionth, it would be unrecognizable. In information theory this is known as adding noise to the signal, and it is theoretically (and practically) impossible to make an analog copy without adding noise......"

[siouxmoux3]

By the time you get to 10th generation recording. The is was an emerson VHS recording on SP looks like.

[ZJemptv]

It was interesting to see how quickly the color vanished. Good music, too!

[interdimensionatron]

cool!

[chlebachce]

interesting

[popitem]

We can see the particle coming from the space.

[GarfieldnPyramid]

This is interesting. BTW this happens to many game shows.

[deepsabbathfanatic]

interesting video. what kind of deck was used here? i always figured you'd have ever increasing amounts of video noise until it was unrecognizable, but surprised that a/v signals are lost that fast. i've only gone as far as making third gen copies and they still looked pretty good. i've had 'bootlegs' of unknown generation have bleeding colors though.

[zenpho]

Thanks for the interest. You're right, the signals probably wouldn't decay as quickly if I'd used more robust equipment, but I think the video illustrates the principle nicely anyway.

I used quite old equipment to do this, bouncing the signal back and forth between two decks. One was the deck in my ancient sony camera that shot the original 1st generation footage (it's Video8 before even Hi8!), the other was a horrible cheapy deck from ALBA or something.

[phrozen3]

nice music

[LoveSound87]

this is absolutly amazing

[Glitchernator]

Can you please PM or Reply me on how to set up my 2 VHS's to copy VHS, thanks

this is just so amazing, im way to interested on this video :)

[zenpho]

I'm really happy you liked the video. I've sent you a message with more details on how to set up a similar system.

Please don't forget to let me know how it goes, I'd love to see more degraded footage!

[pipefx64]

This is just amazing. Thank you so much for this.

You seem to have sent a few people some info on how to set up VHS to make this kind of thing and I was wondering if i could maybe get in on that? I'm working on a film at the moment using pretty basic techniques like digital zooms and camera shakes to get abstract footage and it would be great to experiment with something a little more complicated like this.

[nubvomdienst]

wow, that's kinda creepy but i have tape like those, too

[HanzSygnal]

sweet.  I just saw Basinski a few days ago--this is cool. like your style.

[rhymeswithgabriel]

i'm so very intrigued by this... i've watched it four times already

[zenpho]

Thanks for the positive words dude. I checked out your youtube favourits list:- there's some eclectic stuff on there and I feel flattered to be included. Cheers!

[royggbiv]

really interesting

[zenpho]

Hey, thanks for the comment, your ROYGGBIV name reminds me of Boards of Canada. But it's got me stroking my beard thinking "I wonder what the extra G in the middle is for?" ;o)

[zenpho]

Damn, I forgot to include in my last comment that I'd checked out your favorites on your youtube profile and was pleased and intrigued to find a reference to the Pruit Igoe scene from Koyanisquatsi (one of my favourite films!) Man, that story in the comments from VOWOYELE is both crushing and uplifting. What a find!

[royggbiv]

yeah really.

and yes, you were spot on about boards of canada.

by the way, I came across this because I'm really interested in the degradation of audio tapes, like in william basinski's loops... would you be able to tell me a thing or 2 about audio decay?

[zenpho]

I've sent you a message with some more detail on tape loops and how I made the music in this video.

Thanks again for the comments! Let me know if you've any more questions.

[unicornburger]

This video is a real gem.

[Vtwinsp1]

I like this ;)

[yhancik]

Really interesting ! And nice music too

[oliveplume]

that was beautiful.

thank you : )

[KeyFilmation]

its called "Detriment"

[KeyFilmation]

if you want you can see my LP to LP copy just to make a comparison. mine really degraded fast!

[KeyFilmation]

is this SP, LP or SLP?

[zenpho]

This is a recursive SP to SP copy. It took around half an hour to copy a few seconds of the traffic light video from one recorder, rewind, swap input/output cables, then copy back to the other deck.

The audio was created separately (and dubbed on afterwards) by using a synthesiser with a modified dual-cassette deck and a simple mixer. The cassette deck was overdubbing constantly so I could play new notes whilst the old sound was decaying. (unlike the videos- which needed rewinding!)

[KeyFilmation]

thats exactly what I did! cool! (although it didn't take me that long to copy...it was degrading so fast in SLP!

[KeyFilmation]

im so sorry i accidentally removed your comment from my video instead of reply to it!! could you please write it again so I can reply? im so srry!

[KeyFilmation]

are you copying reel to reel? tell me how you did this

[Jocento]

looks like watching cocksucker blues or godspeed you! black emperor

[kenziegunn]

looks like watching cocksucker blues or godspeed you! black emperor

[heatmiser86]

It's sad to think of all of the music and video's that will one day be gone. All of those tape reels that hold music from days long gone will disappear and may never be heard again. Or those VHS tapes, holding family memories, will turn into dust and be gone forever...man!

[pvx]

Exactly, that's why it's always a good idea to transfer those old tapes to a digital format, i.e. DVD-Rs, MP4 files, Blu-Ray.

I've just finished transferring to DVD-R a lot of 10-12 year old videotapes of episodes of some public access shows me and some friends were involved with back then. I figured to do such just to see them again for old time's sake, but also for preserving the tapes' content, since magnetic recording tape has only a finite shelf life, as you mentioned...

[rhymeswithgabriel]

you missed the point

[pvx]

What do you mean I missed teh point? What I was saying was that ti's a good thing to preserve those old videotapes and such to digital formats so that they won't be lost forever and gone, and transformed to dust.

Sure, said digital formats might become obsolete as well, but that's when you transfer them to the next current format (and with most formats today and for the future being digital, I don't see generational loss being an issue...).

[mojorisen74]

CD-r's and DVD-r's have a limited shelf life as well. They just found that CD-r's have a shelf life of 10 years, DVD-r's are assumed the same since they haven't been around as long. So if you've got something you really want to keep, be sure to transfer it at least every 3 years.

[OBSysteme]

@heatmiser86 Actually , you are probably worried for nothing... tape is more proven as a lasting media than the new cd DVD that scratch and that can also rott (mildew).

Tape is great... the degrdation shown here is just by re-recording excessively and re-using the reccording as the source for the next reccording, if I am not mistaken...

Most Video Tapes and audio Cassettes I acquire... some from the 1970's play perfectly.

[markeatworld117]

it looks so cool at the end!

[movieboyJS]

i don't like this video. the enovolpe head video's are even better

[rascalrascal]

uhh?

[rascalrascal]

great video

[podbradak]

thanks for the demo. interesting. kinda haunting.

i had trouble figuring out how did Basinski do the compositions.

[zenpho]

William Basinski wrote "The disintegration loops", you can buy it from amazon I think.

The music for this video was written by me, specifically for the video.

[solitaryeccentric]

Wow, that was...interesting. The music was cool too. Is this the Disintegration Loop track or a totally original track?