Sam Harris and Reza Aslan debate the "ground zero mosque" - Part 1

[FrodoDojo]

I am torn between not wanting to appear a bigot and wanting people to grow out of the need for all religions. Unfortunately, ground zero is a testament to all that is wrong with religion...any religion.

[TAz69x]

sometimes I wake up and my penis is hard

[Kulumuli]

In Cologne, Germany, they have the tallest cathedral int the world, the Cologne dome. It is a landmark. Of course, the muslims want to have a big mosque there. But even the poltical correct clerics of the Cologne dome asks; WHY must the mosque be higher than the dome? They could build the world's tallest mosque in many places. Why HERE? As in the ground zero mosque; is it an imperialistic building for islam?

[dethica]

let me tell you guys something:

the anti mosque crowd is saying that this is islam's way of asserting its superiority over conquered land. they are right!

you can not deny that islam has a history of building mosques in conquered territory to signify it's superiority. For example Babri Mosque in India. The muslims build a mosque there in the 1500's over a hindu temple. it is a controversial topic in india to this day. NO MOSQUE!

[SmogHouseTradingCo]

@dethica The Christians have a habit of building churches in conquered lands as well, ever think that's just what happens when you conquer someone? Man you're fucking stupid.

[knowthetruth1492]

I have to admit, I think Reza made better points than Sam Harris on this debate. Reza showed how building the park Ave community center is not a victory for Al-Qaeda, he showed how all the funds for the center are monitored by the government, and he laid waste to the comparison of building a statue of Hitler in front of a Jewish temple by explaining how comparing all muslims to the 9/11 hijackers is falacious and wrong.

[davian3]

Read "Muslim Mafia" by P David Gaubatz & Paul Sperry. Lear how the US government is tracking, raiding, jailing the followers of the fascist, rapist, murdering pedophile Prophet. "Allah is our goal, the Prophet is our guide, the Quran is our constitution, jihad is our way and death for the glory of Allah is our greatest ambition"._Muslim Brotherhood credo. They all read the same book.

[AL13NM]

No place of worship of any religion should be built on the site. A vast Public Library dedicated to the memory of lives lost due to the ignorance of man should be built. And all the holy books these dark age mentality throw backs want to kill each other over should all have a special place of honor in the Mythology section where they belong.

[secula4eva]

aslan,a proven house of cards apologist, not only does he weazel around with usual muslim diatribe, but its not only his own work, he simply regurgitates other proven apologists nonsense

i don t think he s capable of original valid argument, his usual fayre is bleating about islamaphobia, & other drivel, thats why he s obsessed with geller, spencer etc, but..he knows he s incapable of debating them.

he is obviously in the ramadan mould (who was laughed out of france)

a no argument lightweight

[iMaDeMoN2012]

Do we have to have to talk to Reza Aslan as well? He is so annoying.

[CountMantis]

Reza, I respect your intelligence. Really. When it comes to Islam, your the man, but seriously, don't tell Sam Harris you understand circumstanses relating to muslims better than him because you have a degree in Islam and he doesn't. All your religious knowledge is worth no more in debate than what you can bring to the table.  Your reasons for your case are all you have to work with.

[Resenbrink]

@CountMantis - he did exactly the same in the filmed debate about Islam that he and Harris have and which is on Youtube.....he says that he has an "expertise" in the subject of Islam and suggests that only people are qualified to make statements about Islam.

[blazereef]

honestly, fuck muslims, i hate christianity but i am disgusted by muslims 1000000 times more then christians, they are worthless maggots in need of extermination, its that simple, islam will be the end of us if we dont get rid of islam very soon

[BrainInSkull]

@blazereef It seems that ideology is the problem. Anyone with an irrational "I'm right and you're wrong because my book says so" attitude is no different than the guy who says a dog told me to strangle people. These seem to be deep psychological issues and "faith" has always been a blanket excuse.

[blazereef]

@BrainInSkull exactly, if people would simply start being logical, the world would improve massively

[BrainInSkull]

@blazereef I do think it would improve the world but morality and logic are tricky things to work out.

[fandanstan]

@blazereef Oh, so you wanna wipe out 20 % of the world's population? Honestly, I'm disgusted by you and everyone like you. Fucking Hitlers of the modern world.

[isthattrue212]

So if it such a multi cultural center, then who is funding it again? Where is the money coming from? I didn't quite hear him answer that clearly. Seemed like a cool question to me.

[beradification]

Very silly comment CoryKnightgown, there is an obvious glaring point you are missing..the highjackers committed atrocities BECAUSE of Islam, they may have had other things in common which didn't affect their ideology- i.e. haircuts. There is a dispute because Islam is the cause of the problem and a mosque is Islam.

[CoryKnightgown]

it's not just islam... all the 9-11 hijackers shared something else in common... haircuts!

and now we have to suffer the posthumous insult of a ground-zero barbershop. this radical, freedom hating barber-shop now stands as a blatant, symbolic slap in the face to the 9-11 familes declaring "we attacked you on your soil and this salon shall stand as a constant reminder of our victory as well as our meticulous and impeccable parts!"

vote NO on the ground zero barber shop!

[charlesvan13]

One of the lame things about this mosque contriversy is all the phoney eccumenical white-washing of religion you have to hear from most liberals.

I have even heard liberals claim the hijackers weren't Muslims.

Bullshit they weren't Muslims!

And there's a reason they are so quick to offense.

The claim is the Koran is the final unulterable word of God.

[fusedchromosome]

At 2:33 Harris says "...because I think they have less to do with our deepest wisdom at this point and rather a lot to do with divisive ignorance that we should outgrow."

Well said.

[GetMeThere1]

I think Sam is taking fire that he doesn't deserve. He said it's no big deal, etc., etc. He doesn't care about this building. He's only saying what he's said ten thousand times: there's nothing wrong with, in general, being AGAINST religion--and islam in particular. It's not "bigotry" to be dismissive of religion, it's rationality.

[annata12]

I bet Reza didn't say that in regards to the cartoons, where Muslim sensitivities were hurt.

[philateliceun]

Sam Harris says that noticing a unique problem in Islam is a sign of bigotry in this day and age but that is just a bullshit argument if you ask me. I don't think anyone is defending the stoning of women or Islamic bronze age tribes like nobody is defending North Korea. Sure the censoring of the cartoons was fucking ridiculous and some people are too frightened of Islam. But stuff like Geert Wilders and such is just bigoted. If you speak out against Islam speak out but don't just offend people.

[pp0u50f3]

@philateliceun I think that point is that any criticism of Islam will be seen as "offensive" by most of the muslim world thats why there seemed to be barely a moderate muslim on the face of the earth when Salmon Rushdie was given a Fatwa. Plus there are many liberal, well educated people that Sam regularly talks to that do actually defend the stoning of women

[philateliceun]

@pp0u50f3 Seriously there is not even 1% of left or liberals that actually think the stoning of women is ok . You can't just sat "every opposition to Islam is considered bigotry" that is such bullshit. Seriously we are talking about this mosque and now suddeny the left thinks every bad word about islam is bigotry, I think Sam needs to look at some forums to see what the 'right' actually says about islam in contrast to other religions. fuck me, we are not talking about nice discussions.

[pp0u50f3]

@philateliceun I'm not sure i would say "ok" but that they think we shouldn't critisice the stoning of women, that its thier cultural practice and its not our place to interfere and that it has nothing to do with the Quoran.

Agreed, all critics of Islam are called bigoted, those that generlize or are racially motivated justifiably so, those (like sam) that are simply worried about the logical consequences of certain beleifs unjustifiably so.

[Zanthios]

@pp0u50f3 criticize my religion with a clear understanding (or not) or a question..... why offend people? you know Muslims are completely offended when we hear insults been throwing at us. just like the majority of people in this world...

just stop you will cause more tyranny and racist bigotry if you do, and more blood will be spilt

[angelstarbum]

@Zanthios So I shouldn't criticize Islam becuase it might cuase a Muslim to blow himself up in a disco?

[lawyerly]

@philateliceun I am not a Muslim. God's name is not Allah and Mohammed was not his or any other god's prophet. This simple statement, which is as true of my view as it would be of ANY non-Muslim's view, is deeply offensive, to the point of violence, to many Muslims in the world. They cannot even tolerate people who do not believe in their religion expressing their disbelief.

[slicingwater]

How can you have interfaith dialouge when one religion has the final and unalterble message of god, that was sent to the last prophet? And one believes its people are the chosen people that were created to be priests of this world by god. While the other one says if you don't accept Jesus as your lord and saviour you go to hell. Can you really have a discussion with a religion that has no god, and one that has multiple gods. Interfaith dialouge my ass.

[MisterWeed]

Reza Aslan is a true taquiya master..

[Gwisss]

Reza Aslan uses strawman arguments: "Sam said...", or arguments from authority "I have a Ph.D in Islam". Reza's dishonesty is contemptible and is a good representation of the stance the majority of moderate Muslims take on these issues.

Even Reza's attempts to be an authority enough to state with certainty that "Sam's views on Islam demonstrate his vast ignorance on the matter" is nothing short of shady and contemptible.

"Ph.D in Islam"... wtf

[fandanstan]

@Gwisss I'm surprised you of all ppl speak of a straw man, yet attempt to generalize Aslan's opinion as the opinion of the entire moderate Muslim population.

And have you never heard of Islamic Studies? Many Universities have some sort of program like that. Perhaps you should do some research before making yourself look foolish.

[Gwisss]

@fandanstan Firstly, there is a difference between a "strawman" fallacy and a "generalization". Secondly, if you read the articles and watch the debates where moderate Muslim public speakers defend Islam. They often do tend to use "arguments from authority" as Reza Aslan does, claiming a certain knowledge because they are Muslim. This is not a generalization of all Muslims, just the public speakers.

"Ph.D in Islam" Did you not hear what he said? moving the goal post a little?

[fandanstan]

@Gwisss Is it wrong to assume that he has a little more knowledge since he LIVED with the people, and practice the same religion as them? Would you go to a librarian for a brain surgery, or a brain surgeon?

Yes, I did hear what he said. Perhaps the university he got his Ph.D from offered a program called "Islam". Who knows? But it's most likely the topic of his thesis.

[Gwisss]

@fandanstan Yes, it is wrong to assume that someone knows more about a given subject because they espouse authority on the subject. Sam Harris is a Neuroscientist studying "Belief" at the level of the brain. I think he has a lot to say about the beliefs held by many Muslims, and the doctrine that can shape those beliefs.

Secondly, he has a Ph.d in Sociology of Religion. This doesn't make his authority on religion absolute.

[fandanstan]

@Gwisss Neuroscience is the physiological study of the brain, no?

Sam Harris supports ethnic profiling, which, in my opinion is a detriment to his credibility.

[neocons1345]

@Gwisss Right on " Ph.D in Islam" wtf...well said :)

[Swiley117]

It's a victory mosque designed to stand as a symbol of islamic dominance. It's a "why we fight" memorial to the "magnificent 19" who pulled of the disgusting sept 11 attacks and rallied the muslim world against the "great Satan." If the islamic pattern of setting up mosques as victory symbols wasn't already there, the name "cordoba initiative" would be a signal to the world as to what the 9/11 mosque means.

[fctchk]

@Swiley117 Note that, after denying that it was a conquest marker, they've recently abandoned the Cordoba name. Why would they feel compelled to do that if it's not a conquest marker? Of course non of the typically useless US media talking heads could be heard pointing that out let alone at least remarking on the peculiarity of the sudden name change.

[polymath7]

Something tells me, amazingly, that I'm actually going to side with that unmitigated pinhead Aslan.

Come on Sam, don't force me to cross you of my short list of rational people.

[pp0u50f3]

@polymath7 hi there, I think this debate was a bit to short and ultimately dead before it started. Be wary of Reza he used at least one straw man that i noticed, also i felt Reza pirouetted around some questions, e.g. Whats the punishment for appostacy in the Muslim world? Sam doesn't think there should be a ban on buidling the ground zero mosque just that its in bad taste

[SithRage]

@polymath7 I agree with the poster's comment. Also, about your shortlist, just because you don't agree with someone 100% of the time doesn't mean they're not rational.

[hymnofashes]

@polymath7 Something tells me that I'm all the way through part 1 and they haven't actually disagreed about anything. The interviewer is like "this is about the mosque" and then Sam is like "Yes I agree with both of you about that but let's talk about how Islam is especially bad."