The story of the TSR-2 and the Avro Arrow are strangely similar. Maybe the British government didn't want to be out done in the "Stupid" catagory by a former colony.
Your Argument also Falls apart on it's primary standpoint, if TSR-2 was a ""White Elephant"" (as you claim), then so was the F-111 /TU-22M Backfire/ Mirage IV etc
(as they were designed for the SAME Role!, which the XB-70 was not).
Not till Rockwell International's "B-1 Lancer" first Prototype flew in 1974, that the US had a Aircraft of TSR-2's Calibre. And due to very similar Political Ineptitude, the USAF didn't get her till the mid 1980's.
@sakoshooter48 It is clear to see you're speaking from a position of complete Ignorance, or your just a extremely Bigoted Yank
(i'd say both).
The BAC TSR-2 outclassed the ""F-111"" in General Performance, Avionics, and ironically Unit cost as well. the F-111 as compared was years late in both USAF & RAAF Service, never met it's Fudged Performance Claims, & cost the US & Australian Governments far beyond original estimates (one reason why the UK cancelled the F-111K order for the RAF).
When I saw this at Duxford I was more impressed at the sight of it than the blackbird. A truly amazing aircraft, and a real tribute to great British engineering and innovation. It's a shame how stupid out politicians are.
Really, government should stay out of big business cos the government has no bloody idea, Aircraft industry. Car Industry ,And motorbikes. As you all know Britain is not "allowed" to be any good any more....
Shame really. I enjoyed working in a factory making some bits for something you would never see or could never afford :/
Cancelled so we could get the cheaper f111. Turned out it went massivley over budget and after we poured money into the f111 it was decided not to buy it.one of the selling of the f111 being it was cheaper and quicker to produce. 10 years later the aussies got theres
If those Americans who twisted someones arm, to force the UK to scrap the TSR-2, had been British, I would have had them for High Treason! They talk of Our Special Relationship, with the US? Speak to the majority of British Citizens today, and you get a totally different picture to the medias, or politicians view. One day our Citizens view may become the status quo! Then we will truly become a Democratic Nation. Secret societies, cannot ever be part of true Democracy! They shall be damned!
Lead by the nose by the Americans, it makes me sick search ,em-2 assault rifle test' in you tube for another example of a ground breaking weapon that would still be in use today if not for the US insisting we change to 5.56mm .A round now considered too small
I'm American and I just happen to completely agree with you. We have great design here, but groupthink and politics endangers our capabilities. Another example is the M14 assault rifle. It was a great rifle, which when replaced by the M16 was quickly phased out. Just to get the idea of a "space-aged" rifle on the field, the M14 was pulled kicking and screaming from our troops hands in the middle of Vietnam, a place where the "space-aged" M16 jammed in the mud a lot. Result=>Casualties.
@newmanfrigan I didn't 'jam in the mud', it jammed because there were no cleaning kits or instructions issued with the rifle. The gunpowder of the first lots of ammunition was filthy burning and compounded the failure issue with all of the carbon dumped into the receiver. The M-14 was a great rifle, no doubt, as its reissue will attest to. The M-16 is the longest serving rifle in our history, and it has had its moments, but it does soldier on.
I went some place with my mate Jim from hereford, he took me to see what was left of all the project and his friend bought loads of it for scrap value, that was in the early 80s
@stubbostubbs I was an aviation-mad kid of 10 when the TSR2 was flying, and was scrapped. Back then, I knew every detail, every specification and I followed every test flight. I was devastated when it was scrapped for the greatly-inferior General Dynamics F-111.
But the US had been trying to put an end to Britain's aircraft design & manufacturing industry for ages, and had already done the same thing to the VC7 airliner (the V.1000 in military form). The VC7 story is even more appalling.
@flygweilo Sit the fuck down, Britain couldn't afford the TSR-2 and it wasn't that great an aircraft. And thank that asshat Sands for killing the British aviation industry.
@flygweilo Greatly inferior, you are talking through your ass as the F-111 served for almost 40 years. No aircraft is without its faults, and the F-111 had a few. But never was there a fighter bomber more feared by the Soviets than the F-111.
It's somewhat ironic that although the VC7/V1000 was such a relatively large Jet Airliner, yet so few people today know she even existed, as compared to the TSR-2, P.1154, SR-177, & other contempory prematurely axed projects.
And yes you are correct, the axing of the VC-7 (co-currently with the de-Havilland Comet A's Metal Fatigue problems) cost us Brit's our share of the Global Airliner Market
(apart from our part in Airbus, Boeing's only remaining rival in the Market).
@stubbostubbs Really, I can remember a few American projects which suffered the same fate, the XB-37 flying wing comes to mind, so does the Vought F-8 Super Crusader and the North American F-107 Rapier. The TSR-2 was a white elephant before it ever got off of the drawing boards.
@stubbostubbs And I'm sure a no-load such as yourself has a "real" grasp on life, especially aviation I'm sure. TSR-2 was an aircraft that was obsolete before it ever flew!
PATRIOTISM, that's whats lacking in Britain, especially in its LEADERS !
xcaibur 1 month ago
The story of the TSR-2 and the Avro Arrow are strangely similar. Maybe the British government didn't want to be out done in the "Stupid" catagory by a former colony.
cyberkirb 1 month ago
@sakoshooter48 ...
Your Argument also Falls apart on it's primary standpoint, if TSR-2 was a ""White Elephant"" (as you claim), then so was the F-111 /TU-22M Backfire/ Mirage IV etc
(as they were designed for the SAME Role!, which the XB-70 was not).
Not till Rockwell International's "B-1 Lancer" first Prototype flew in 1974, that the US had a Aircraft of TSR-2's Calibre. And due to very similar Political Ineptitude, the USAF didn't get her till the mid 1980's.
Consider your claim(s): BUSTED!
TSR1989FF 1 month ago in playlist TSR-2: the complete Untold Story.
@sakoshooter48 It is clear to see you're speaking from a position of complete Ignorance, or your just a extremely Bigoted Yank
(i'd say both).
The BAC TSR-2 outclassed the ""F-111"" in General Performance, Avionics, and ironically Unit cost as well. the F-111 as compared was years late in both USAF & RAAF Service, never met it's Fudged Performance Claims, & cost the US & Australian Governments far beyond original estimates (one reason why the UK cancelled the F-111K order for the RAF).
TSR1989FF 1 month ago in playlist TSR-2: the complete Untold Story.
When I saw this at Duxford I was more impressed at the sight of it than the blackbird. A truly amazing aircraft, and a real tribute to great British engineering and innovation. It's a shame how stupid out politicians are.
funkyassfingers 2 months ago
my grandfather worked on it
therockdeamon 3 months ago
Really, government should stay out of big business cos the government has no bloody idea, Aircraft industry. Car Industry ,And motorbikes. As you all know Britain is not "allowed" to be any good any more....
Shame really. I enjoyed working in a factory making some bits for something you would never see or could never afford :/
blackcountryme 5 months ago
Cancelled so we could get the cheaper f111. Turned out it went massivley over budget and after we poured money into the f111 it was decided not to buy it.one of the selling of the f111 being it was cheaper and quicker to produce. 10 years later the aussies got theres
avpisback 9 months ago
I never understood why the government will cut spending on a project after it's already airborne and in the proving stage.
swedishvolvo 9 months ago
If those Americans who twisted someones arm, to force the UK to scrap the TSR-2, had been British, I would have had them for High Treason! They talk of Our Special Relationship, with the US? Speak to the majority of British Citizens today, and you get a totally different picture to the medias, or politicians view. One day our Citizens view may become the status quo! Then we will truly become a Democratic Nation. Secret societies, cannot ever be part of true Democracy! They shall be damned!
noggin48 9 months ago
@noggin48 I`ll bet you a pound to a pinch of shit that when Dennis Healey dies they will then release files that he was in the pay of the Russians.
stubbostubbs 7 months ago
Pause at 6:14, it kind of looks like a Tornado.
G777GUN 11 months ago
Lead by the nose by the Americans, it makes me sick search ,em-2 assault rifle test' in you tube for another example of a ground breaking weapon that would still be in use today if not for the US insisting we change to 5.56mm .A round now considered too small
RogueBrit 1 year ago
I'm American and I just happen to completely agree with you. We have great design here, but groupthink and politics endangers our capabilities. Another example is the M14 assault rifle. It was a great rifle, which when replaced by the M16 was quickly phased out. Just to get the idea of a "space-aged" rifle on the field, the M14 was pulled kicking and screaming from our troops hands in the middle of Vietnam, a place where the "space-aged" M16 jammed in the mud a lot. Result=>Casualties.
newmanfrigan 11 months ago
@newmanfrigan I didn't 'jam in the mud', it jammed because there were no cleaning kits or instructions issued with the rifle. The gunpowder of the first lots of ammunition was filthy burning and compounded the failure issue with all of the carbon dumped into the receiver. The M-14 was a great rifle, no doubt, as its reissue will attest to. The M-16 is the longest serving rifle in our history, and it has had its moments, but it does soldier on.
sakoshooter48 2 months ago
@RogueBrit And now going back towards 7.62
stubbostubbs 7 months ago
I went some place with my mate Jim from hereford, he took me to see what was left of all the project and his friend bought loads of it for scrap value, that was in the early 80s
sidewaysid 1 year ago
Thanks for putting this up. This story almost makes me weep.
videoneptune 1 year ago
Never before had a project been so totally obliterated from memory.
stubbostubbs 1 year ago 7
@stubbostubbs I was an aviation-mad kid of 10 when the TSR2 was flying, and was scrapped. Back then, I knew every detail, every specification and I followed every test flight. I was devastated when it was scrapped for the greatly-inferior General Dynamics F-111.
But the US had been trying to put an end to Britain's aircraft design & manufacturing industry for ages, and had already done the same thing to the VC7 airliner (the V.1000 in military form). The VC7 story is even more appalling.
flygweilo 7 months ago 5
@flygweilo Cheers for that, I`ll look into your info.
stubbostubbs 7 months ago
@flygweilo Sit the fuck down, Britain couldn't afford the TSR-2 and it wasn't that great an aircraft. And thank that asshat Sands for killing the British aviation industry.
sakoshooter48 4 months ago
@sakoshooter48 the f111 is shit
kevinkards1 3 months ago
@kevinkards1 Uh huh!
sakoshooter48 3 months ago
@sakoshooter48 must be nice to not have a fucking clue about anything
freddieclark 2 months ago
@flygweilo Greatly inferior, you are talking through your ass as the F-111 served for almost 40 years. No aircraft is without its faults, and the F-111 had a few. But never was there a fighter bomber more feared by the Soviets than the F-111.
sakoshooter48 2 months ago
@flygweilo Bang on.
It's somewhat ironic that although the VC7/V1000 was such a relatively large Jet Airliner, yet so few people today know she even existed, as compared to the TSR-2, P.1154, SR-177, & other contempory prematurely axed projects.
And yes you are correct, the axing of the VC-7 (co-currently with the de-Havilland Comet A's Metal Fatigue problems) cost us Brit's our share of the Global Airliner Market
(apart from our part in Airbus, Boeing's only remaining rival in the Market).
TSR1989FF 1 month ago in playlist TSR-2: the complete Untold Story.
@stubbostubbs Really, I can remember a few American projects which suffered the same fate, the XB-37 flying wing comes to mind, so does the Vought F-8 Super Crusader and the North American F-107 Rapier. The TSR-2 was a white elephant before it ever got off of the drawing boards.
sakoshooter48 2 months ago
Comment removed
stubbostubbs 1 year ago
@stubbostubbs And I'm sure a no-load such as yourself has a "real" grasp on life, especially aviation I'm sure. TSR-2 was an aircraft that was obsolete before it ever flew!
sakoshooter48 2 months ago