Also Surah 2 verse 255," Allah --- there is no god but HE, the everlasting, the Self-Subsisting by Whom all subsist. Slumber over-takes him not, nor sleep
Proper English translation should be, "I don't desire from them sustenance, nor do I Will that they feed Me" Al-Dhariyat 51:57. I cannot find, "He neither sleeps nor slumber...." in Al-Qur'an. Help?Lol Thanks ^_^
peace god!!! what could be better than the truth, lol, allah team is the team, build on the bible that the mentaly dead can wake up. lmao, i love the teachings!!!!!! peace the believers.
Orthodox Islam is about as legitimate as Drake's street credibility. I wouldn't wipe my behind with orthodox Islam; out of fear that I might make my stool dirty with it.
Come on NOI members get it together ya'll love to criticize christians and orthodox muslims for being spooky and unscientific but ya'll are just as ridiculous and unscientific as them. SMH
@Zag118 many of us are just as spooky as christians but many of us are former christians it does take time. Our religion is founded in mathamatics and truth so just keep studying it and you will see it doesn't contradict nature
@supermike2164 I only get 500 characters on here per reply. I can't spoon feed everything you're going to have to study for yourself and most importantly "THINK" for yourself. I've already studied the teachings thoroughly, they're not deep and yes they are wrong and just a made up 20th century religion, that's why the NOI teachings was able to copy some already known facts like the "actual facts" stuff that was already know prior to 1930, just not known to the masses of black ppl.
@Zag118 many of us are just as spooky as christians but many of us are former christians it does take time. Our religion is founded in mathamatics and truth so just keep studying it and you will see it doesn't contradict nature
@Followingfist Just face it bruh those teachings are flawed. take some of these challenges to a minister in the noi and see if they can provide any evidence or logical answers. They won't be able to. You could take these challenges to farrakhan and he would have nothing to say, because he doesn't really know anything, he's not scientifically literate. he's just living off of the people (his followers) just like Elijah did and this whole noi con game began with W Fard.
@Zig118: ...U may know the teachings as far as what it may say, but not it's meanings, otherwise U wouldn't keep asking for confirmation by way of debate. To those time lines being ...just history is a shallow statement. If U were really thinking U'd know all this didn't just happen. Man's fall was gradually taking it's course. At this point and time, we are given necessary info in an outline form to unlock certain things in us who R on frequency of the word. B'cuz N da beginning was da word.
@Followingfist Oh ok now I know what the teachings say but I don't know what they mean LOL! are you serious yea I know what all those fictional historical events are supposed to mean. Like I said the NOI teachings aren't that deep it doesn't require years to know and understand them, well at least not for me. If you've read Elijah's book they're really redundant he says the same things over and over. if you listen to farrakhan's speeches it's the same he says the same things over and over too.
@Followingfist And the NOI teachings being better than christianity just means that not believing in heaven and hell after you die is better than believing in heaven and hell. And the NOI is not supposed to be spooky, but more reality based than christians but from my experience NOI members are just as spooky as christians, because all farrakhan talks about sometimes is jesus. Also doing for self and unity are good ideas in the NOI but they didn't originate in the NOI.
@Zig118: I've thought about many times...and I see U've capitalized the teachings as being "evidence" and the believers as being "thinkers." Perhaps U (or ur consciousness) didn't realize this because your subconsciousness (which excepts only truth) was writing for U. Then to say the teachings R probably better than Christianity? Tells me (looking at how words R used) you haven't completed your comparisons. Which further state, ur findings are mere opinions......
@Followingfist Please read carefully what I wrote I said they're called the teachings and not called the EVIDENCE. I said NOI members are called believers and not THINKERS. Are you having some reading comprehension problems? or you just being funny because you know you're defending a ridiculous ideology and can't compete with I'm saying?
@Zig118: as far as attack is concerned...including defense of somebody or something, it could be recipricol depending on ur angle. Since we had Islam b4 Christianity and the cross was used to destroy and manipulate other nations based on racism. I'd say Farrakhan and others attack on Christianity is more of a defense for our ppl.
@Followingfist Basically what I'm trying to say is that no matter how much you or anybody else tries to justify the NOI teachings they are still absolutely wrong and disagreeable with real science and mathematics. I know the teachings and there is no real science, mathematics or history in it except for some figures in the supreme wisdom like actual facts that were known prior to 1930 and were probably copied from an almanac or encyclopedia.
@Followingfist just think about it the NOI teaches that a god separated the earth from the moon 66 trillion yrs ago which is absolutely inconsistent with cosmological and geological evidence. then you have no history in between this time and 50,000 yrs ago when a scientist named Shabazz supposedly strayed away from civilization. What was going between 66 trillion yrs and 50,000 yrs ago like 66 billion yrs ago or 66 million yrs ago? then you have no history from 50,000 yrs and 6,600 yrs ago
@Followingfist which is yakub's time. What was going on between 50,000 yrs ago and 6,600 yrs ago? what was going on 40,000 yrs or 30,000 yrs ago? I mean talk about gaps and this is just history. There is absolutely no real science or mathematics at all. There is a reason that they're called the teachings instead of the EVIDENCE. There is also a reason NOI members are called believers and not THINKERS. Think about it. The NOI teachings are probably better than Christianity but they're still wrong
@Zig118: naww they don't spend much time with them spiritual centers becuase they've corrupted and control them already. Case in point is their politcal dealings with this nation and views of you and I as a ppl. The challenge is not with the science of communication. It is with what we do on the information that comes through it. It's synonomous with the KJV of bible. It's about proper interpretation of the meanings in language or prophecy when written. This is what Dr. Wes' is getting @
@Zig118: the NOI is successful, it's still standing isn't it? Especially when U consider it's objective! Do U remember the objective? What has happened to us since Elijah challenged government? You almost have a whole generation studying the truth of their Ancient past. If scientists weren't listening..where did they get the idea to goto the moon ...to trying to duplicate the mathematics of the wheels?
@Zig11:...if the opposition can't get to the head they go after the body. Our survival and transformation epidemically is based on unity. There is also a criteria towards quality of life within unity also. Take ur teachings to the hood N' C what happens....you'll experience the same thing too. So U can't put it on the NOI. Those who take it, just take it and those who reject it..just let them go. Once we reach 99% disatisfaction da ppl will have "no choice" or priveleges regarding da curriclm'
@Zig118: ...is established. This is our #1 issue from 81 yrs ago that U speak of. Why we don' have it yet? It is because of ego, jeolousy, and the mis-understanding that our problem...is spiritual, not capitol! Instead of blaming the NOI, U may want to look at so-called successful blacks who have more capitol than the MInister or the NOI, and aren't recycling black dollars or implementing programs in our community that would give our youth a better outlet. On top of this ..U know
@Followingfist You're the one that said the NOI is so successful now you're saying in order for the NOI to be successful we need unity first. Ok I agree with you for the most part on that. About scientists not challenging the NOI or proving that is has false teachings, NOI member have this misconception that scientists are listening to Farrakhan or any religious leaders or cult leaders. Do scientists spend all their time to try to disprove christianity,buddhism,orthodox islam etc... NO
@Followingfist Scientists and engineers are not wasting time listening to religious leaders. They're actually contributing to this world and inventing all these technological advancements we love and enjoy. We wouldn't even be able to communicate through this medium (internet) if it wasn't for science. Science contributes everything to society, religion contributes nothing, but only produces fairy tales and confused people who can't understand the real world around them.
@Zig118: ..The only scientist (white and others) I see are those who are in agreement with the teachings. Like those who even provided thru their study, proof of the wheels at the last saviour's day convention. Now, there is no improvement in the black community, not because of the NOI, it is because of the black man is at war with himself and the very fact that he must provide. U've been around long enuff to know no organization will be successful in the eyes of the masses until UNITY.
@Zig118:..."the real world" of "real science and mathematics"..comes from or is filtered thru "proto-semetic" teachings, and like I've said....produce to the NOI ur so-called scientist. The White man (God of this world), hasn't brought to public court any representative of the NOI, particularly the Minister..on charges of false teachings. If they could go to the moon, they could certainly do this, would u agree? Then, why haven't they done it, even when Elijah was among us?
@Zag118: on other black organizations (MST, African Nationalist, Hebrew Israelites, 5%rs, etc..) But no matter how much U all talk about the NOI. It's standing the tests of time.
@Followingfist The teachings aren't true because I say so, the teachings aren't true because they're not consistent with the real world of real science and mathematics. Like I've said multiple times the minister could not debate a scientist in regards to yakub,origin of the moon,origin of the so called white race,origin of the universe and measurements of the universe etc... The NOI is not successful either there really is no improvement in the black community since its inception 81 years ago
@Zag118 these statements you are making "The NOI is not successful either there really is no improvement in the black community since its inception 81 years ago"
show that you must be blind to history and blind to facts. You don't have a perception of the MISSION of the NOI in america. you would do well to be more humble and reserved in your judgement. we can and do debate scientist of this world on subjects like Yacub and the Moon comming from the Earth. Also the age of the universe
@supermike2164 Tell me what physics,chemistry,biology etc... do you have in your teachings...NONE None of these are covered int he supreme wisdom or any of the books or speeches. You have actual facts and some facts in the problem book that were known prior to 1930 and probably copied from an encyclopedia or almanac and some of the measurements in the problem book are wrong like the diameter of universe 76 quintillion miles and age of the sun being 76 trillion yrs old FLAWED! LOL!
@Zag118 your comments seem to be filled with emotional enmity instead of simple observation. If you knew the teachings you would know that We belive that Islam is given to us as the nature in which the universe operates (submission to the will of Allah) so all of those scientific disiplines are part of our teaching. The diameter of the universe is beyond current science to calculate therefore this is our theological belief at this point.
@supermike2164 No sir my comments are from simple observation, but emotions do play a major part in a lot of things we (homo sapiens) do. that's one our differences from other species our emotional intelligence. Emotions played a part in your decision to respond these comments and try to defend your teaching. Farrakhan expresses emotions when he get's fired up and says "TALK TO ME". So please don't try to sound deep by bringing up that "study guide" stuff "rising above emotion"
@Zag118 Ok you just showed some of your motivation with this comment and its okay. IF your motivation was just pure as a scientist trying to critique the NOI teachings then your emotions wouldn't cause you to hesitate to admit the truth contained in the teachings. One of the members may have mistreated you and angered you and now you hate the NOI. That happened to me SEVERAL times but I learn to forgive them and realized those people have their INDIVIDUAL problems
@supermike2164 What is wrong? Why do you keeping bringing up this emotional stuff. It sounds like you're the only emotional one here. My only motivation is to share knowledge with you or anyone for that matter. It doesn't matter to me what religion, so-called race, color or creed.We are all the same species (homo sapiens) and I think we all need to be scientifically literate in this day and age.Religion is obsolete and is nothing but made up stories,this includes the NOI teachings
@Zag118 just like with any group of people (especially black folks) you are going to have people that pretend they are better than everyone else just because they have a little information about things everyone still are learning more about. if you don't get past your emotion on this subject you won't be able to see that the NOI is the most important and vital groups for the independance and success of the black community
@supermike2164 Ok I guess you'll continue to be delusional and obsessed with your emotions argument because you can't defend your teachings. How long does it take to learn?The Minster has been in the NOI for 56 years, I'm about half that and thats my age he has been in the NOI twice as long as I've been alive.so how long does it take? How old are you and how long have you been in the NOI?No people aren't really trying to learn because learning is hard it's easy to remain ignorant.
@Zag118 No I think I did a good job against your arguments just because you want the problem to mean that 76 quintillion (12.66 million ly) was a fixed number that doesn't mean that it is fixed. Also just because I misunderstood your earlier post doesn't mean I'm avoiding any portion of a fact a fact is a fact. our observable universe is much bigger today than it was in 1930 that is true. your math was true as well but your conclusions I disagree with.
@supermike2164 I've attempted to make things clear for you and give explanations even though I only get a limited number of characters to reply. You haven't done anything but reject evidence and make multiple miscalculations and misunderstand what I've clearly stated. You still haven't explained how your teachings say the sun is 76 trillion yrs old but the diameter is 76 quintillion miles, photons traveling at the speed of light would have traveled 76 trillion light yrs.
@Zag118 You see you continue to ask questions to me at the same time you claim you are trying to explain things to me. when you ask a question you need to use your brain and anylze the explaination. I could question you about the inconsistent holes in scientific theories and you would say "science does not claim to know everything". I can theorize that the diameter given to us was the scope of observation in 1930. I'm not wise enough to know what definition of universe was intended
@supermike2164 Here we go again SMH. Analyze what explanation? You haven't explained anything. The only "inconsistent holes" are in your teachings and in your knowledge. Arrogance? Really? I would say a person that claims to be a representative of a god and his christ and his followers should be called arrogant . Farrakhan and his followers are the arrogant ones.His followers (you included I'm sure) seem to ignore all of his wrong predictions and miscalculations through the years.A sad case bruh
@Zag118 The point is you have a degree of arrogance about you knoweldge that is undeserved you should observe history to realize you have taken a unproductive path if you chose to belive that religion is all made up stories that have no truth whatsoever to them. Because Atheism has never been able to develop human potential the way that belief in religon has that is just a fact.
@supermike2164 Again another wrong conclusion from you. Atheism hasn't been able to develop human potential like religion. You have it backwards, religion has paralyzed human potential. 93% of the top scientists of the National Academy of Sciences are Atheist or Agnostic only 7% believe in a god and none of them are NOI members and none of them are getting their science from their religious books, also all of them (religions) can't be right, but all of them can be wrong.
@Zag118 If you live in USA this place was built on Judeo Christian principles. These principles allow this enviornment If you live in China your land was built off buddist, Tao, Confusionist principles, India, Hunduism, middle east Islamic principles, Japan Shinto principles. Africa and Native Americans had various Gods and religous (divided) Atheism is not strong enough able to inspire people to start and build a powerful nation. The % of Atheism is a sign of the fall of a nation.
@supermike2164 Here you go again with your wrong conclusions. This country was founded with a constitution that separated church from state. And a lot of the founding fathers weren't christians, but were skeptics,agnostic or deist and despised christianity like Ben Franklin,Thomas Jefferson,Thomas Payne,George Washington etc...i would be typing a long time to correct all your errors, but China became great under Mao Tse Tung Atheist and Communist/ Soviet Union the same thing.
@supermike2164 You're funny though. You can't defend your religion so now you're trying to defend religion in general, pretty ridiculous.In "Our Savior has Arrived" by Elijah he said that W Fard told him if he saw a christian and a hindu to kill the hindu 1st of course this also means kill the christian 2nd,this is your ridiculous teachings from one of your books. So you obviously don't know your teachings. Also all you talk about is division of people christian 4 white/buddha 4 china/islam arab
@Zag118 As I said b4 I defended every substantial misunderstanding you've raised now convincing you is not my objective. I just like to have on record answers so if neutral people read this they can judge for themselves. Also everyone knows that one of the main reasons whites came to the americas was because they could worship in freedom. Keep in mind the GOVERNMENT is not the country the people are the country and the people form a government.
@supermike2164 First you can't defend your religion, than you can't defend religion in general, now you're saying something like this country was founded on the people's ability to practice "freedom of religion" looks like your options for defense are become narrower. This wasn't the original debate, but you like to get off topic when you can't defend something. I happen to agree with this one though this country was founded with an idea of "FREEDOM" freedom of religion,freedom of speech etc...
@Zag118 Now we've already established that this is analysis of a religion namely NOI teaching. Most people realize that religons have various teachings that hold symbolic or spiritual meaning greater than literal meaning of words and religon also has literal teachings as well.
This conversation has established that you don't have the mentality to grasp or deciper various meaning in religous scriptures and teaching.
We have also determined that you refuse to acknowlege the role
religon in general has played in human development and organization around the world.
so anyone accepting your anylasis of a religous teaching is just as misguided as you are & wb just as confused on this subject as U R. You have stated correctly that the Universe (in terms of all existence ) is greater than 76quintillion miles. but do you think at the end of the universe (as western world knows it today) is a wall that stops photons? can you test that with current techology?
@supermike2164 All I'm going to say is just study real mathematics and science. Real math and science have built this technologically advanced civilization that we live in and it's continuing in it advancements. We all love and enjoy this technology too, Like this youtube we've been debating on. Religion hasn't provided this for civilization. you talk about scriptures. Those scriptures (bible & quran) are just books with stories written by men from a pre-scientific age.
@Zag118 In my conclusion on this point. I'm a practical person I'm results driven also I love history and that study. I don't care about the semantics about what something is CALLED I am more concerned about the stated objective or problem solving in the most effecient methods avalible. to me religon is a tool just like a vehicle or a method of solving a problem just like a formula. U can't say a religon is wrong unless you understand its objective and mission for example
@supermike2164 Now you're making some good points, religion is a tool just like you said. It can be used for good or bad just like any other tool like a hammer can be used to build and destroy. Religion can be used to inspire people to do great things and can it also be used to get people to commit heinous acts like murder. I'm dealing with what type of tool religion is, mathematics and the natural sciences are tools also.Religion is a tool that has been used to disable the masses
@supermike2164 ability to think and research things for themselves and instead rely on the words of a book and/or some so-called prophet. And I can say a religion is wrong when it completely disagrees with well known established scientific evidence and facts.
@Zag118 points I agree with you on: "Religion is a tool that has been used as a tool to diable the masses" I agree 1000% Also relying only on the words of a book or some prophet I agree in part. Now I don't know your objective but you indicated earlier that you feel that people shouldn't be divide at all. I disagree with that but I won't debate that now. my point is that in order to actually bring your objective into reality you have to inspire others to belive as you do
@supermike2164 if you were to go through that process you would probably realize that you would be dealing with human nature and all of the seemingly unscientific realities of that subject. People have to be inspired to sacrifice personal objectives in order to contribute to group objectives. This is why religion is a fact and has been a fact in some form for over 6,600 years. it is a fact that is a very powerful weapon on the mind of people. now the laws of survival of the
fittest (natual selection right) if your enemy develops a weapon you must develop a adequate defense or a greater offense to defeat your enemys. If your enemy has a sword then you need a gun or a better sword or you will be defeated. If you know anything about nature then you know concept is true. I told you one of my objectives (empowerment of black people as a group) I belive the NOI is a invaluable tool in that process. being anti religon is being isolated and that is defeat
@supermike2164 I agree with some of what you said. One thing I don't agree with is that being anti-religion as you called it, is being isolated. Like I said the non-religious population in the U.S is about 16% which is about 1 out 6 people that's a pretty large # for a population of 300 million that would be about 50 million people. Not isolated at all. In some European countries that % is higher for their population. I think a secular all (people) inclusive movement could motivate people even
@supermike2164 more. Not using religion as an inspiration or motivation but using the idea of "TRUE FREEDOM AND EQUALITY" This is something the NOI is supposed to be for freedom,justice and equality. We don't need religion to motivate us to obtain these goals. The people (all people) need unity and a common goal for all of humanity. The NOI could possible be more effective if it was an all inclusive secular movement, but it wouldn't be a religion anymore. Look up the Zeitgeist movement in just
@supermike2164 a few years they have hundreds of thousands of non-religious participants, that are actually trying to do something to make the world a better place. Also look up the Jacque Fresco and the Venus Project. These are non-religious secular,altruistic, egalitarian movements that have and are inspiring people to do something and there are more movements like this.
@supermike2164 Another thing I do agree with you on is that if your opponent has a sword you need something superior to defeat them, yes "superior intelligence will always win" At least as far as human civilization is concerned, history has shown whenever a superior civilization comes across an inferior civilization, they conquer them. I think Elijah Muhammad said "A civilization that doesn't know mathematics, will always be subjected to a civilization that does know mathematics".
if I give simple figures like 3, 6, 9 & tell a group i need the GCF of these figures. Those that don't know what GCF is may give an answer of 18 those of us that understand the objective know that these people did NOT understand the objective therefore they didn't understand why or how we get the answer 3. U should realize that 1 of the objectives of the NOI is to empower and unify a particular group of people against an enemy who has systematically destroyed their productivity
@supermike2164 Ask yourself why do you hold the bible or quran in high regard. Is it because someone told you they were from a god. You can't off of what someone says or tradition. Where is the evidence? That's all we (homo sapiens) need to be looking for is evidence. We should observe the world for what it is, not what we want it to be. Darwin and Wallace got rid of a need for a god in the 1800's in regards to "BIOLOGY". Recently, Physics has got rid of a need for a god in regard
@supermike2164 to the origin of the universe. So you see our origin and evolution as a species can be explained without the intervention of a god and the origin of the universe can be explained without the intervention a god. You would have to study biological evolution (evolution by means of natural selection) and physics to understand these conclusions, because I know this go against what you're used to and your religious tradition.
@supermike2164 All in all it's been interesting discussing these topics with you.I know in the beginning you kept you accusing me of being emotional. I think you're actually the emotional one here and if you can get beyond those emotions and observe the real world for what it is,you'll gain a greater understanding and you'll begin to see for yourself.The teachings aren't wrong because I say so,they're wrong because they disagree with the evidence,just like all the other religions
@Zag118 4 the 3rd time all of ur points have been addressed easily Since you have convinced yourself that you are right you occlude any counterview. u shouldn't expect me to confine my comments to ur self made box The lesson 2 problem book states in the begining " This book teaches the Lost-Found Nation of Islam a thorough knowledge of our miserable state of condition in a mathematical way WHEN WE WERE FOUND by OUR SAVIOUR, W.D. FARD". The word when could indicate condition would change
@supermike2164 There shouldn't be division among the people. the most honest conclusion for all people on this planet is that there is no evidence for a god whatsoever. Regardless of what people want to believe or what inspires them, there is no evidence. Someone can be brought up in a gang&drug area, abusive household and this can inspire them to get out of that and become someone great that contributes to society, that doesn't make what inspired them right or good. You have flawed reasoning.
@Zag118 I belive I have an above average understanding of the messenger's teachings and I am with the mission of empowering black people and original people around the world. You don't seem to know this but the messenger told us that M.Fard would never just say something and it means just that there was always something that you had to interperate the meaning. This is what gives people who think like you big problems. And since YOU don't understand or agree It must be incorrect
@supermike2164 How can you have an above average understanding of a below average teaching? I'm familiar with Elijah saying that about Fard and it's completely nonsense. This is what christians do with the bible that's why everybody has their own personal interpretation of it, even though the bible says "god is not the author of confusion", but since you can't defend it, it has to have some secret meaning and can't be taken literally, just like the others you're making up stuff on the spot.
@supermike2164 How do you think Europeans were able to conquer the globe and aboriginal peoples?Partially because aboriginal people across the globe were to superstitious and religious.Europeans(Western Civilization)were able to put aside their religious beliefs enough to start a renaissance and scientific revolution that has changed the world.The wheel hadn't been invented in parts of Africa by the 19th century and there are still backward peoples like the bushmen who are still hunter gatherers
@Zag118 well if you read actual HISTORY and look at individual events you will find a common them. Use division amoung a group to cause infighting and betrayl. Study Blackfoot tribe of Native American history, study King Leopold's Ghost (book title). Also the european Maintained their religous brotherhood even though they competed with each other (between white countries). They used their THEOLOGY to win hearts and minds so once people were conquered the stayed that way
@Zag118 You see Zag this is a competition(race) you can't win as an individual doing your own thing because your life is limited and if your group's future is dictated by another then any power you gain will eventually serve your oppressors kids. In the NOI we have a Theology started maintained and controled by us we intend on groing this thing so it can create an enviornment that BLACK people can succeed and gain power just like Christianity 4 white/ Buddist 4 Asian Islam arab
@supermike2164 Also the non-religious (Atheist,Agnostic,Skeptic etc....) population in this country is about 16% that is more than other minority groups like the population of black people which is around 12%. And like I said before the vast majority of your top contributing scientists are Atheist or Agnostic and these are the people that have advanced technology and civilization. So once again you're completely wrong. Atheism is just the rejection of a belief in all deities, it's not a religion
@Zag118 you've also contradicted yourself on this message board so what does that mean?
"the teachings of the NOI aren't true at all" Yet you admit that many of the measurments given in Actual Facts are true? The part of Supreme wisdom that has 76quintillion m also says those were given in a mathmatical way so that we could remember the condition we were in WHEN the saviour found us. This should tell everyone that reads that these numbers will change or just given to teach not actual
@supermike2164 No I didn't contradict myself,because the actual facts were known prior to 1930 some of it the 1800's and were probably copied from an almanac or encyclopedia.That's like me copying all the scientific knowledge of today and starting a religion with it and calling it my teachings.It wouldn't be my teachings,so the actual facts aren't NOI teachings just 20 copied facts.And there not "right and exact"but only approximations as if they came from an almanac.Almanacs give approx.figures
@supermike2164 So now the 76 quintillion miles isn't actually the diameter of the universe? It's just there to teach us something? Wow! Really? Ok with that type of thinking or actually lack of thinking, we can say all of the teachings aren't actual how do we know what to take literally and what not? So you're admitting that all of it is bogus nonsense. Fard being god,Black man being god,yakub,motherplane and baby planes,origin of the moon,25,000 yr histories, etc.... ALL BOGUS NONSENSE!
@Zag118 The reason why you will be a bitter and complaining isolated person and will have no negative effect on the Nation of Islam is because you fail to see we are serving a function. This function (salvation of a destroyed people) you won't do. And the scientist that you trust won't do it either. I love to debate people like you because it motivates me to study more you have put forth some good questions but nothing that can threaten the core of our teaching.
@supermike2164 Of course you'll do another miscalculation and reply with more flawed mathematics and nonsense about emotions or something, instead of staying on topic and sticking to the subject. Explain to me how the white man grafted himself into a gorilla and in fact all the hundreds of species of primates that can't breed with each other. Elijah said all the "monkey family" is what he called it comes from the white man. Explain this. Of course you can't because it's nonsense.
@supermike2164 As far as me having a negative effect on the NOI, that isn't something I'm trying to do. The NOI already is a negative effect on itself. The NOI has no real positive effect on the black community.So this function you talk about doesn't exist. Of course some people join the NOI and change their lives for the better,but some people find jesus or buddha and change their lives too. You and I both know the NOI has nothing and does nothing special. It's just a religion.
@supermike2164 With all of that said,honestly I think I understand where you're coming from.When I was in the NOI I loved the idea of unity and brotherhood and I thought what the minister,messenger,savior represented was the truth,so I would try to defend it and ignore some of the flaws I noticed,but at some point you have to realize that even though you're ignoring the flaws they're still there and need to be dealt with.So I dealt with it. You haven't decided to deal with it yet.
@supermike2164 Now as far as the diameter of the universe being a fixed measurement of 76 quintillion miles (12.6 million light years) this is not beyond modern science. It was discovered in the 1920's that the universe is expanding by observing the red shift in distant galaxies. Also galaxies in the observable universe have been calculated a lot further away than 12.6 million light years. The nearest galaxy to the Milky Way the Andromeda galaxy is 2 million light yrs away
@Zag118 a different story the current mainstream theory about the age of the universe has major unanswered flaws and it has to do with the average temperature of the universe which about evenly distributed which is imposible based on 13billion year timeframe there are many other holes in this 13 billion year theory touted by white scientist. if nothing moves faster that light speed how does the universe go from smaller than an atom to the size of a galaxy in a trillasecond?
@supermike2164 Also your teachings say that the sun is 76 trillion yrs old which is not true if you calculate the sun's mass and rate of nuclear fusion you can calculate how long the sun will last before dying out it would be around 10 billion yrs it's about halfway through it's life now at about 5 billion yrs old. But if you say the sun is 76 trillion yrs old and the sun emits photons that travel the speed of light,those photons should've traveled 76 trillion light yrs?
@Zag118 Now I've noticed that you have taken SCIENTIFIC THEO-RY (similar to THEO-LGY) as fact and used these THEO-RIES to argue the NOI's THEO-LOGY. basically your taking modern science AS A RELIGON. Which is fine but if you want to get to the truth you must give credit where credit is due. Making statments claiming there is no truth in the NOI teaching is such a insanely false statement it seems emotional.
@supermike2164 We don't have to take modern science as a religion. Science is based on research and evidence, we can test science. We can do the mathematics ourselves. I told you to do some these calculations yourself. Physics,chemistry,biology etc... isn't a religion. Your everyday life is based on the natural sciences. You don't understand and aren't scientifically literate so you reject the evidence. And the NOI isn't a nation so they dont have their own research facilities
@supermike2164 or their own scientists to test anything. Modern science is also based on peer review so everything is published for scrutiny. This is not religion. The NOI doesn't publish peer review research because religion doesn't do research. Religion relies on a so-called revelation from a god with no evidence, whatsoever. Religion (including the NOI) is based on revelation instead of "INVESTIGATION". Science is based on "INVESTIGATION" instead of revelation without evidence.
@supermike2164 How could those photons travel 76 trillion light yrs if the universe is a fixed 12.6 million light yrs. See these flaws are from the teachings themselves not even from comparing the teachings to mainstream science. As far the universe age being calculated to be 13.7 billion yrs old is measuring the residual radiation from the big bang the cosmic microwave background radiation which permeates throughout the cosmos, the expansion rate of the universe and temperature
@Zag118 Zag as I said before you should calm down and seek understanding b4 you come to a conclusion. We are taught that Islam was given to us AS A RELIGON one thing this tells us is that there is theology (which currently may not be able to be proven) Then there is mathamatics which is what we currentyly can prove. If you ask a physic 101 student to prove that gravity propagates at the speed of light. just because he/she can't prove it that doesn't mean physics is wrong......1
@Zag118 Now you may not want to relize this but if you can find in the teachings or Actual Fact (something we all can verify without just relying on the word of whites) a contradiction this is something to have big concern. But even your statements contradict orthodox science. You say the universe is a FIXED!!!! 12.6 million light years where do you get this from? The universe is on a constant expansion according to science. are you talking about the diameter?
@supermike2164 No it's your teachings that say the universe has a fixed and finite diameter of 76 quintillion miles which if converted into light years it would be about 12.6 million light yrs. This is what your flawed teachings say. I'm not saying that. If the universe is 13.7 billion yrs old than we would expect the horizon of our observable universe to be at at least 13.7 billion light years in every direction, not 76 quintillion miles(12.6 million light years).
@Zag118 Abell 1835 IR1916, which lies some 13.2 billion light years from earth
is the farthest reported star from earth 2x your universe's diameter won't even make it to the farthest known planet of these white scientist technology to view. even if you meant to put a b in front of the m it still would mean you are contradicting mathamatics.
@supermike2164 Wow you are completely wrong. you've misunderstood my reply read it again. I was saying your flawed teachings say the universe is 76 quintillion miles in diameter which is 12.6 million light years. See so your agreeing with me that your teachings are wrong. I don't think you know that 76 quintillion miles was 12.6 million light years so you're confused. Do the calculation yourself IF YOU CAN.
@Zag118 Well I will say this to you its great that you have done the mathematics in the problem book and yes 12.666 x10 18th exponet miles probably was the diameter of the observable universe in 1930. Our supreme wisdom also tells us that there are 17 million black people in north america ( but we know this has changed) That is what islam is its truth and truth can change with time so we are taught to be updated to the modern time. now in science you have the Observable Universe
@supermike2164 You're just really not good at simple mathematics are you? Even though Islam is supposed to be Mathematics. the universe was still 13.7 billion years old in 1930 so even though it is expanding it would still be at least 13.7 billion light years in every direction. the universe has not expanded from 76 quintillion miles (12.6 million light years) to 13.7 billion light years in 81 years. Please do the math yourself. You're really a sad case.
@Zag118 which is what we know about as people and another definition of universe which is taken to mean any thing the exist. We also know that the lessons given to us in supreme wisdom were given to us for a greater purpose than knowlege of facts and figures but designed with partial aim of giving us an independant thinking. Keep in mind these problems were given to us to find the evidence to prove.
@supermike2164 I thought you were the smartest NOI member I've spoke to thus far, but all of you resort to nonsense. Some have just made up stuff on the spot,some resort to name calling and call me a hypocrite and you're obsessed with this delusional idea of emotions,bitterness,complaining and isolated. Absolutely nonsense. You can't defend your flawed teachings so it's my fault or something is wrong with me because your teachings are false. Ya'll are a very sad bunch of people.
@supermike2164 yes you say Abell 1835 IR1916 lies 13.2 billion years from earth which agrees with what I'm saying. We expect the observable universe to at least extend 13.7 billion light years in every direction (that would be the observable radius), but like I said that's the observable universe (because of the finite speed of light). The actual universe may extend a lot further or go on infinitely.
@supermike2164 Basically the universe began as very hot and dense the big bang began the cosmic expansion and cooling of the universe if we rewind the clock which modern science has done we come to a singularity a beginning if you will and that beginning has been calculated be 13.7 billion yrs + or - 1%. Modern science doesn't pull stuff out of thin air like religion. If you want to know more study this a lot of the gaps you mention are from your gaps in knowledge not science.
@Zag118 if you study the moon coming from the earth was a very contentious debate just 10 years ago. But just a few years ago most current scientist agreed with part of what Elijah told us that the moon came from a explosion deep in the core of the earth. All truth is Islam no matter where it is the origin of truth is the originator and that is why we strive to be upright to Him who originated the heavens and earth. you should try to rise above emotion
@supermike2164 As far as the universe expanding from smaller than an atom to about the size of a solar system (not galaxy I don't think) You would have to study cosmic inflation. And you're absolutely right "NOTHING" can move faster than the speed of light. The nothingness of space can travel faster than the speed of light, it's information that can't break the light speed like energy and mass. The moon yes there is a theory that a collision with another celestial body caused it
@Zag118 If another celestial body that developed in a separate enviornment then we would have a unique material on the moon and some on the earth as well but the moon and earth have shown to be virtually IDENTICAL in composition.
@supermike2164 not an explosion caused by a god or scientist, but a collision with another planetesimal in the early solar system there was a lot of debris and there were constant collisions in the early solar system while material coalesced and formed planets,moons,asteroids etc....The conditions on the earth were not fit for any life not even microbial life during this period extremely hot and no atmosphere. So no you can't twist it to say it bears witness to your teachings.
@supermike2164 I will give you props though supermike you seem to know more and study more than the other NOI members on here you at least know about some of what modern science says you just have to study further so you can understand it and not just say it has gaps. science doesn't claim to have all the answers like religion which says it has all the answers but actually has none. Science is about discovering more about the natural world the way it is without preconceived ideas
@Followingfist The government isn't after the NOI or farrakhan because they have no overall positive effect on black people just like the church doesn't really have any effect on improving communities. Sure there are people who join the mosque or a church and improve their personal lives but there is no improvement overall. gangs,prostitution,drugs have gotten worse in the communities. In fact a lot of that gang,prostitution,drugs etc... ends up in mosque and church.
@Zag118: That's on U! Make it plain..."unfortunately the teachings of the NOI aren't true to U." If U were the one to carry us home...then the U.S. Government would be coming after U. But I doubt this is happening. If it was then U'd understand the open enemy, the common enemy that we as a whole have. Then U wouldn't be attackin the NOI with ur opinions. U know why the NOI is so admired and successful? One of the main reasons is that the NOI doesn't go around droppin' seeds of doubt on ...
@Followingfist And nobody is attacking the NOI no more then when farrakhan or other NOI ministers talk about the flaws in christianity and the bible. Are they attacking christianity? I'm just sharing knowledge.
@Zig118: real talk man...I've been in the game since 88'! Seen it, and heard it all! bruh. I'm just saying at one point I was where u at. Until I had to re-study in the manner "AMRSBZ" spoke of...then I saw, truth for what it was. The reason I came to such a conclusion is ...Farrakhan said,"research what the messenger taught, don't just take hearsay as truth, and u'll C the Messenger is on point, with proto-semetic Islam."
@Followingfist yea I did some re-studying and all and tried to justify things but I'm a truth seeker and I have to go with the direction of discovering truth and unfortunately the teachings of the NOI aren't true at all.
@Zag118 "the teachings of the NOI aren't true at all."
these type of unscientific and faulty statements show that your judgement of the truth is faulty. are you sure you want to say the teachings are not true at all!! why not identify points that you disagree with that are not true
@supermike2164 I've identified a number of points that are not true, but of course since the NOI is just a religion and not a Nation that has it's own research facilities and scientists NOI members just deny the evidence and ignore the technological world around them like this internet we're communicating on. When has Farrakhan or the NOI debated any real scientists please refer me to somewhere where I can get the video. I was in the NOI and there were no debates against
@supermike2164 any scientist that I know of. The NOI teaching isn't science and this can be easily demonstrated but NOI members are so scientifically illiterate that they don't know this includes the Minister. Tell me scientifically how the white man grafted himself into a gorilla and in fact how he grafted himself into all the different species of primates that can't breed with each other. Elijah said they did this in "message to the blackman"
@supermike2164 I'm sure if you try to answer any of the questions I ask you you'll make up something on the spot that doesn't explain anything scientifically. This has been the pattern with NOI members they make up stuff on the spot because they don't know and there are gaps. Elijah and Farrakhan just make statements with no explanation and this makes NOI members make up stuff because there was no explanation to begin with and because those stories are ridiculous.
@Zag118: it is about being receptive to truth however one senses it! How else would one investigate a matter without exercising the natural god given senses to percieve in the first place? We will be judged according to our perception. It is about investigating everything, that's what MFM did b4 he exposed himself to us, and I myself is one who has and still does conduct investigations. "AMRSBZ" mad a good point...."observe as U study"! How long were U in the NOI?
@Zig118: ........in fact-it is the base! One from among us is Supreme in knowledge, wisdom, and understanding. .."Ye all are God's, children of the Most High God."
@Followingfist it's not about hearing or excepting something it's about investigating everything and taking nothing on face value even NOI teachings. This is something taught in the NOI but not practiced by NOI memebers when it comes to NOI teachings
@Zig118: my changing base on the teachings? I agree with U. But what makes the teachings right is how it proves the reality of GOD! This again...is the number one question in all of the theologies of Religion. This is my base!
@Zig118:.....Keep closing ur ears...that is not our problem! Our only job is to tell it!!!!!!! Whether one hears it, excepts it, or whatever is on them...!!!
@Zig118: ....U were once a member. If U didn't see this as a member?, then it would explain the level of ur open mindness. U should know that the U.S. government has detered our allies form fully participating with us (economically). Were not prior to 75, remember! Now, if U don't listen to Farrakhan, that's ur problem! U couldn't have been open minded while in the NOI other wise u'd have seen what divinity was. Being that U were once in the NOI, U know what to do. I aint telling U anything..
@Zig118: we are "the".."Lost and found members" of ...the NOI. the most despised and rejected (Shabazz) of all ppl. We the so-called negroe are the chosen! Ur numbers relating to followers and sympathizers is like the numbers of crazy ppl America accuses as being out of their minds because they've experienced the wheels. That's a whole lot of ppl to be calling crazy. Perhaps this number may mean they're on point!? U must understand the oposition to the NOI. I mean U don't know? U said U were
@Zig118: I was in the hood...active! I know what impact the NOI has on us and I know what it's done for me coupled with the fact that Islam seems to penetrate the walls of prisons more-so than any other religion, I think I'm qualified to say. Yes..black on black is still an issue, what do u expect overnight success? Ask the ex gangbanger or prostitute now in the NOI!? According to scripture we are a Nation. Remember 1st of all:
@Followingfist I wouldn't call 81 years overnight. I understand where you're coming from but I was in the NOI and I know that that gangsta and prostitute mentality still end up in the mosque more often than not. I even seen a sign of it from you when you said "U got Farrakhan and active members of the NOI fucked up". people don't change even when they come in the mosque they're the same or even worse in some cases.
@Zag118:..But that's cool. U could sleep on Dr. Wesley if U want too. But he knows what he's talking about! To fully understand the NOI consider his books and research of "Proto- Semetic Islam."
@Followingfist the NOI doesn't have a big effect on anything it's not as big as you think. there's still black on black killing and black woman being prostitutes. nobody's listening to minister farrakhan except the few thousand followers like yourself and the sympathizers and yall aren't doing anything and aren't a nation. if you were a nation you would have research facilities and your own scientists which you don't. there aren't any scientists in the NOI
@Followingfist if you told me that minister farrakhan called out all the Athiests that used to be in the NOI like myself I wouldn't know about it because I don't listen to him. you or someone would have to tell me. it's the same thing with real scientists they're not listening to farrakhan just like they're not listening to any religious or cult leaders.
@Zag118:..U got Farrakhan and active members of the NOI fucked up...He aint scared of none of yall's opposition. As a has been U should know. Who are these scientists who want to debate him? Better yet go gather them up and bring them b4 our nation!; go back and decipher the very reason why we have specific stories of what happen to us as a ppl! Because thus far I aint seen no white or black scientist prove the material wrong. U all attack students and not address the teacher.
@Zag118:..based on unity today; then ur an enemy to our rise as a ppl. I say this to say...as I looked back at your presentations, they come off as an attack on the teachings by THEM from MFM. That said, are U saying MFM didn't know what he was talking about? Are U saying he wasn't GOD in the person? I'm dealing with the very base of the presentation here! To really understand the NOI and it's material, one must understand the coming of the Mahdi. B'cuz he is/was to bring something with him...
@Zag118:..U seem to present ur finding like ppl quote the quran. But not the wisdom to move the ppl towards civilization. Ur presentation is argumentative in a fashion who's objective is 2 uproot the NOI. The Messenger said b4 he left, that the NOI would fall and rise again, to never fall again! The NOI deals with the proper spirituality of us being. B'cuz there are many who know numbers and recite this and that etc., but to recivilize one, particularly blk ppl, if ur spirit is not...
@Zag118:..Yes...I appreciate being having my brainwashed! My brain and thought process was dirty when I was going to church on weekends and afraid to see thriller movies. I was dirty as I grew up and started shooting at crips. I was dirty sitting in 5% circles smoking weed thinking I understood supreme wisdom, then go out drinking hrs later. It was these teaching of THEM that help me put things and my life back into perspective with true meanings of the Ancient orders or our ppl.
@Followingfist I'm glad to hear that these teachings changed your life. It still doesn't make these teachings correct. some people find jesus and turn their life around some people find allah or buddah or some people find nothing like me I'm an Atheist I find nothing but reality
@Zag118:..have had a wisdom that prevented them from becoming flaw while going back. So like I said, they (white ppl) understood enuff or some, but not all which with their natural inclination getting in the way...they couldn't quite reach the goal as intended. Thats why today...they look like civilized ppl with all this great architectural works but in their homes, the way they run/bully countries, and misuse their pwr and wisdom over it's own citizens...they are satan/the devil.
@Zag118:..B4 I give U the answer....Why does the Minister talk more Jesus than MFM? And why does the Minister claim he's universal (christian, muslim, hindu, Moor etc...?) I explained the method of yacub! The Messenger said...they tried to graft themselves back into the original, right? Well simply ask urself, how to do go back to a thing? U go back in the route in which one came. Which is the reverse action. If one goes back by going around and they make it without flaw..then they must...
@Zag118:..U keep expressing ur schools of white thought to disprove the schools of black thought or Ancient base math as if we are inferior. Their knowledge is of 6 ounces of braincells and U may have aborted the mission when U thought U had the full meanings of a part of the teachings (this is what most x-members do.)
@Zag118: Those debates U've claim to have saw (perhaps here on U-tube) are not actual members of the NOI under the direction of THEM. As U know there are other "Nation" sects also. So u'd do good to clarify wich avenue their from 1st. U want a debate on sciences so...bad, why don't U bring it beyond this u-tube thing and present ur case and objective to the MInister. If ur so convinced for the sake of black ppl, then goto Chicago or something. Ur wisdom is not greater than THEM nor MFM.
@Zag119: ..Both yacub, the sun, moon, and stars is true! What U don't understand is the creator put in his ppl "a yearning" to do specific things towards perfecting human beings. This yearning comes about as a pre-determined idea in one who is born to carry out the duty or job of what ever yearning is called for. This takes ...time. As U should know, time dictates everything.
@Followingfist Wow! I appreciate your responses and attempt to try and defend what you believe. I'm familiar with all those teachings like I said I was in the NOI at one time. Unfortunately, you're absolutely wrong and have no clue about what I'm talking about or about real science. You've been completely brainwashed by the Minister. That's why it would be important for the Minister to debate a scientist about these teachings. When people see that he wouldn't be able to defend any of it
Also Surah 2 verse 255," Allah --- there is no god but HE, the everlasting, the Self-Subsisting by Whom all subsist. Slumber over-takes him not, nor sleep
jasiamera 3 days ago
He was quoting the Bible in Hebrew regarding, he neither sleeps nor slumbers..."
jasiamera 3 days ago
Proper English translation should be, "I don't desire from them sustenance, nor do I Will that they feed Me" Al-Dhariyat 51:57. I cannot find, "He neither sleeps nor slumber...." in Al-Qur'an. Help?Lol Thanks ^_^
1Mussalman 3 weeks ago
peace god!!! what could be better than the truth, lol, allah team is the team, build on the bible that the mentaly dead can wake up. lmao, i love the teachings!!!!!! peace the believers.
PhillysBadGuy 1 month ago
Orthodox Islam is about as legitimate as Drake's street credibility. I wouldn't wipe my behind with orthodox Islam; out of fear that I might make my stool dirty with it.
ThetruthisTHEvirtue 2 months ago
Come on NOI members get it together ya'll love to criticize christians and orthodox muslims for being spooky and unscientific but ya'll are just as ridiculous and unscientific as them. SMH
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 many of us are just as spooky as christians but many of us are former christians it does take time. Our religion is founded in mathamatics and truth so just keep studying it and you will see it doesn't contradict nature
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 I only get 500 characters on here per reply. I can't spoon feed everything you're going to have to study for yourself and most importantly "THINK" for yourself. I've already studied the teachings thoroughly, they're not deep and yes they are wrong and just a made up 20th century religion, that's why the NOI teachings was able to copy some already known facts like the "actual facts" stuff that was already know prior to 1930, just not known to the masses of black ppl.
Zag118 2 months ago
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@Zag118 many of us are just as spooky as christians but many of us are former christians it does take time. Our religion is founded in mathamatics and truth so just keep studying it and you will see it doesn't contradict nature
supermike2164 2 months ago
Checkmate
Zag118 2 months ago
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Followingfist 2 months ago
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Followingfist 2 months ago
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@Zag118:...been there done that.
Followingfist 2 months ago
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Followingfist 2 months ago
@Zig118: ...oh yeah, I'm not justifying the teachings, I'm defending it's objective!
Followingfist 2 months ago
@Followingfist Just face it bruh those teachings are flawed. take some of these challenges to a minister in the noi and see if they can provide any evidence or logical answers. They won't be able to. You could take these challenges to farrakhan and he would have nothing to say, because he doesn't really know anything, he's not scientifically literate. he's just living off of the people (his followers) just like Elijah did and this whole noi con game began with W Fard.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zig118: ...U may know the teachings as far as what it may say, but not it's meanings, otherwise U wouldn't keep asking for confirmation by way of debate. To those time lines being ...just history is a shallow statement. If U were really thinking U'd know all this didn't just happen. Man's fall was gradually taking it's course. At this point and time, we are given necessary info in an outline form to unlock certain things in us who R on frequency of the word. B'cuz N da beginning was da word.
Followingfist 2 months ago
@Followingfist Oh ok now I know what the teachings say but I don't know what they mean LOL! are you serious yea I know what all those fictional historical events are supposed to mean. Like I said the NOI teachings aren't that deep it doesn't require years to know and understand them, well at least not for me. If you've read Elijah's book they're really redundant he says the same things over and over. if you listen to farrakhan's speeches it's the same he says the same things over and over too.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Followingfist And the NOI teachings being better than christianity just means that not believing in heaven and hell after you die is better than believing in heaven and hell. And the NOI is not supposed to be spooky, but more reality based than christians but from my experience NOI members are just as spooky as christians, because all farrakhan talks about sometimes is jesus. Also doing for self and unity are good ideas in the NOI but they didn't originate in the NOI.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zig118: I've thought about many times...and I see U've capitalized the teachings as being "evidence" and the believers as being "thinkers." Perhaps U (or ur consciousness) didn't realize this because your subconsciousness (which excepts only truth) was writing for U. Then to say the teachings R probably better than Christianity? Tells me (looking at how words R used) you haven't completed your comparisons. Which further state, ur findings are mere opinions......
Followingfist 2 months ago
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Zag118 2 months ago
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@Followingfist Please read carefully what I wrote I said they're called the teachings and not called the EVIDENCE. I said NOI members are called believers and not THINKERS. Are you having some reading comprehension problems? or you just being funny because you know you're defending a ridiculous ideology and can't compete with I'm saying?
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zig118: as far as attack is concerned...including defense of somebody or something, it could be recipricol depending on ur angle. Since we had Islam b4 Christianity and the cross was used to destroy and manipulate other nations based on racism. I'd say Farrakhan and others attack on Christianity is more of a defense for our ppl.
Followingfist 2 months ago in playlist Liked videos
@Followingfist Basically what I'm trying to say is that no matter how much you or anybody else tries to justify the NOI teachings they are still absolutely wrong and disagreeable with real science and mathematics. I know the teachings and there is no real science, mathematics or history in it except for some figures in the supreme wisdom like actual facts that were known prior to 1930 and were probably copied from an almanac or encyclopedia.
Zag118 2 months ago
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Zag118 2 months ago
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@Followingfist just think about it the NOI teaches that a god separated the earth from the moon 66 trillion yrs ago which is absolutely inconsistent with cosmological and geological evidence. then you have no history in between this time and 50,000 yrs ago when a scientist named Shabazz supposedly strayed away from civilization. What was going between 66 trillion yrs and 50,000 yrs ago like 66 billion yrs ago or 66 million yrs ago? then you have no history from 50,000 yrs and 6,600 yrs ago
Zag118 2 months ago
@Followingfist which is yakub's time. What was going on between 50,000 yrs ago and 6,600 yrs ago? what was going on 40,000 yrs or 30,000 yrs ago? I mean talk about gaps and this is just history. There is absolutely no real science or mathematics at all. There is a reason that they're called the teachings instead of the EVIDENCE. There is also a reason NOI members are called believers and not THINKERS. Think about it. The NOI teachings are probably better than Christianity but they're still wrong
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zig118: Religion is corrupted for a reason, bruh. Keep in mind though we, the Original ppl, of the earth exercised law before religion came along.
Followingfist 2 months ago
@Zig118: naww they don't spend much time with them spiritual centers becuase they've corrupted and control them already. Case in point is their politcal dealings with this nation and views of you and I as a ppl. The challenge is not with the science of communication. It is with what we do on the information that comes through it. It's synonomous with the KJV of bible. It's about proper interpretation of the meanings in language or prophecy when written. This is what Dr. Wes' is getting @
Followingfist 2 months ago
@Zig118: the NOI is successful, it's still standing isn't it? Especially when U consider it's objective! Do U remember the objective? What has happened to us since Elijah challenged government? You almost have a whole generation studying the truth of their Ancient past. If scientists weren't listening..where did they get the idea to goto the moon ...to trying to duplicate the mathematics of the wheels?
Followingfist 2 months ago
@Zig11:...if the opposition can't get to the head they go after the body. Our survival and transformation epidemically is based on unity. There is also a criteria towards quality of life within unity also. Take ur teachings to the hood N' C what happens....you'll experience the same thing too. So U can't put it on the NOI. Those who take it, just take it and those who reject it..just let them go. Once we reach 99% disatisfaction da ppl will have "no choice" or priveleges regarding da curriclm'
Followingfist 2 months ago
@Zig118: ...is established. This is our #1 issue from 81 yrs ago that U speak of. Why we don' have it yet? It is because of ego, jeolousy, and the mis-understanding that our problem...is spiritual, not capitol! Instead of blaming the NOI, U may want to look at so-called successful blacks who have more capitol than the MInister or the NOI, and aren't recycling black dollars or implementing programs in our community that would give our youth a better outlet. On top of this ..U know
Followingfist 2 months ago
@Followingfist You're the one that said the NOI is so successful now you're saying in order for the NOI to be successful we need unity first. Ok I agree with you for the most part on that. About scientists not challenging the NOI or proving that is has false teachings, NOI member have this misconception that scientists are listening to Farrakhan or any religious leaders or cult leaders. Do scientists spend all their time to try to disprove christianity,buddhism,orthodox islam etc... NO
Zag118 2 months ago
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Zag118 2 months ago
@Followingfist Scientists and engineers are not wasting time listening to religious leaders. They're actually contributing to this world and inventing all these technological advancements we love and enjoy. We wouldn't even be able to communicate through this medium (internet) if it wasn't for science. Science contributes everything to society, religion contributes nothing, but only produces fairy tales and confused people who can't understand the real world around them.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zig118: ..The only scientist (white and others) I see are those who are in agreement with the teachings. Like those who even provided thru their study, proof of the wheels at the last saviour's day convention. Now, there is no improvement in the black community, not because of the NOI, it is because of the black man is at war with himself and the very fact that he must provide. U've been around long enuff to know no organization will be successful in the eyes of the masses until UNITY.
Followingfist 2 months ago
@Zig118:..."the real world" of "real science and mathematics"..comes from or is filtered thru "proto-semetic" teachings, and like I've said....produce to the NOI ur so-called scientist. The White man (God of this world), hasn't brought to public court any representative of the NOI, particularly the Minister..on charges of false teachings. If they could go to the moon, they could certainly do this, would u agree? Then, why haven't they done it, even when Elijah was among us?
Followingfist 2 months ago
@Zag118: on other black organizations (MST, African Nationalist, Hebrew Israelites, 5%rs, etc..) But no matter how much U all talk about the NOI. It's standing the tests of time.
Followingfist 2 months ago
@Followingfist The teachings aren't true because I say so, the teachings aren't true because they're not consistent with the real world of real science and mathematics. Like I've said multiple times the minister could not debate a scientist in regards to yakub,origin of the moon,origin of the so called white race,origin of the universe and measurements of the universe etc... The NOI is not successful either there really is no improvement in the black community since its inception 81 years ago
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 these statements you are making "The NOI is not successful either there really is no improvement in the black community since its inception 81 years ago"
show that you must be blind to history and blind to facts. You don't have a perception of the MISSION of the NOI in america. you would do well to be more humble and reserved in your judgement. we can and do debate scientist of this world on subjects like Yacub and the Moon comming from the Earth. Also the age of the universe
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Tell me what physics,chemistry,biology etc... do you have in your teachings...NONE None of these are covered int he supreme wisdom or any of the books or speeches. You have actual facts and some facts in the problem book that were known prior to 1930 and probably copied from an encyclopedia or almanac and some of the measurements in the problem book are wrong like the diameter of universe 76 quintillion miles and age of the sun being 76 trillion yrs old FLAWED! LOL!
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 your comments seem to be filled with emotional enmity instead of simple observation. If you knew the teachings you would know that We belive that Islam is given to us as the nature in which the universe operates (submission to the will of Allah) so all of those scientific disiplines are part of our teaching. The diameter of the universe is beyond current science to calculate therefore this is our theological belief at this point.
now the age of the universe is .......
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 No sir my comments are from simple observation, but emotions do play a major part in a lot of things we (homo sapiens) do. that's one our differences from other species our emotional intelligence. Emotions played a part in your decision to respond these comments and try to defend your teaching. Farrakhan expresses emotions when he get's fired up and says "TALK TO ME". So please don't try to sound deep by bringing up that "study guide" stuff "rising above emotion"
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 Ok you just showed some of your motivation with this comment and its okay. IF your motivation was just pure as a scientist trying to critique the NOI teachings then your emotions wouldn't cause you to hesitate to admit the truth contained in the teachings. One of the members may have mistreated you and angered you and now you hate the NOI. That happened to me SEVERAL times but I learn to forgive them and realized those people have their INDIVIDUAL problems
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 What is wrong? Why do you keeping bringing up this emotional stuff. It sounds like you're the only emotional one here. My only motivation is to share knowledge with you or anyone for that matter. It doesn't matter to me what religion, so-called race, color or creed.We are all the same species (homo sapiens) and I think we all need to be scientifically literate in this day and age.Religion is obsolete and is nothing but made up stories,this includes the NOI teachings
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 it's nothing personal or emotional. I'm just stating "THE TRUTH".
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 just like with any group of people (especially black folks) you are going to have people that pretend they are better than everyone else just because they have a little information about things everyone still are learning more about. if you don't get past your emotion on this subject you won't be able to see that the NOI is the most important and vital groups for the independance and success of the black community
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Ok I guess you'll continue to be delusional and obsessed with your emotions argument because you can't defend your teachings. How long does it take to learn?The Minster has been in the NOI for 56 years, I'm about half that and thats my age he has been in the NOI twice as long as I've been alive.so how long does it take? How old are you and how long have you been in the NOI?No people aren't really trying to learn because learning is hard it's easy to remain ignorant.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 No I think I did a good job against your arguments just because you want the problem to mean that 76 quintillion (12.66 million ly) was a fixed number that doesn't mean that it is fixed. Also just because I misunderstood your earlier post doesn't mean I'm avoiding any portion of a fact a fact is a fact. our observable universe is much bigger today than it was in 1930 that is true. your math was true as well but your conclusions I disagree with.
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 I've attempted to make things clear for you and give explanations even though I only get a limited number of characters to reply. You haven't done anything but reject evidence and make multiple miscalculations and misunderstand what I've clearly stated. You still haven't explained how your teachings say the sun is 76 trillion yrs old but the diameter is 76 quintillion miles, photons traveling at the speed of light would have traveled 76 trillion light yrs.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 You see you continue to ask questions to me at the same time you claim you are trying to explain things to me. when you ask a question you need to use your brain and anylze the explaination. I could question you about the inconsistent holes in scientific theories and you would say "science does not claim to know everything". I can theorize that the diameter given to us was the scope of observation in 1930. I'm not wise enough to know what definition of universe was intended
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Here we go again SMH. Analyze what explanation? You haven't explained anything. The only "inconsistent holes" are in your teachings and in your knowledge. Arrogance? Really? I would say a person that claims to be a representative of a god and his christ and his followers should be called arrogant . Farrakhan and his followers are the arrogant ones.His followers (you included I'm sure) seem to ignore all of his wrong predictions and miscalculations through the years.A sad case bruh
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 The point is you have a degree of arrogance about you knoweldge that is undeserved you should observe history to realize you have taken a unproductive path if you chose to belive that religion is all made up stories that have no truth whatsoever to them. Because Atheism has never been able to develop human potential the way that belief in religon has that is just a fact.
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Again another wrong conclusion from you. Atheism hasn't been able to develop human potential like religion. You have it backwards, religion has paralyzed human potential. 93% of the top scientists of the National Academy of Sciences are Atheist or Agnostic only 7% believe in a god and none of them are NOI members and none of them are getting their science from their religious books, also all of them (religions) can't be right, but all of them can be wrong.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 If you live in USA this place was built on Judeo Christian principles. These principles allow this enviornment If you live in China your land was built off buddist, Tao, Confusionist principles, India, Hunduism, middle east Islamic principles, Japan Shinto principles. Africa and Native Americans had various Gods and religous (divided) Atheism is not strong enough able to inspire people to start and build a powerful nation. The % of Atheism is a sign of the fall of a nation.
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Here you go again with your wrong conclusions. This country was founded with a constitution that separated church from state. And a lot of the founding fathers weren't christians, but were skeptics,agnostic or deist and despised christianity like Ben Franklin,Thomas Jefferson,Thomas Payne,George Washington etc...i would be typing a long time to correct all your errors, but China became great under Mao Tse Tung Atheist and Communist/ Soviet Union the same thing.
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 You're funny though. You can't defend your religion so now you're trying to defend religion in general, pretty ridiculous.In "Our Savior has Arrived" by Elijah he said that W Fard told him if he saw a christian and a hindu to kill the hindu 1st of course this also means kill the christian 2nd,this is your ridiculous teachings from one of your books. So you obviously don't know your teachings. Also all you talk about is division of people christian 4 white/buddha 4 china/islam arab
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 As I said b4 I defended every substantial misunderstanding you've raised now convincing you is not my objective. I just like to have on record answers so if neutral people read this they can judge for themselves. Also everyone knows that one of the main reasons whites came to the americas was because they could worship in freedom. Keep in mind the GOVERNMENT is not the country the people are the country and the people form a government.
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 First you can't defend your religion, than you can't defend religion in general, now you're saying something like this country was founded on the people's ability to practice "freedom of religion" looks like your options for defense are become narrower. This wasn't the original debate, but you like to get off topic when you can't defend something. I happen to agree with this one though this country was founded with an idea of "FREEDOM" freedom of religion,freedom of speech etc...
Zag118 2 months ago
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supermike2164 2 months ago
@Zag118 Now we've already established that this is analysis of a religion namely NOI teaching. Most people realize that religons have various teachings that hold symbolic or spiritual meaning greater than literal meaning of words and religon also has literal teachings as well.
This conversation has established that you don't have the mentality to grasp or deciper various meaning in religous scriptures and teaching.
We have also determined that you refuse to acknowlege the role
supermike2164 2 months ago
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supermike2164 2 months ago
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religon in general has played in human development and organization around the world.
so anyone accepting your anylasis of a religous teaching is just as misguided as you are & wb just as confused on this subject as U R. You have stated correctly that the Universe (in terms of all existence ) is greater than 76quintillion miles. but do you think at the end of the universe (as western world knows it today) is a wall that stops photons? can you test that with current techology?
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 All I'm going to say is just study real mathematics and science. Real math and science have built this technologically advanced civilization that we live in and it's continuing in it advancements. We all love and enjoy this technology too, Like this youtube we've been debating on. Religion hasn't provided this for civilization. you talk about scriptures. Those scriptures (bible & quran) are just books with stories written by men from a pre-scientific age.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 In my conclusion on this point. I'm a practical person I'm results driven also I love history and that study. I don't care about the semantics about what something is CALLED I am more concerned about the stated objective or problem solving in the most effecient methods avalible. to me religon is a tool just like a vehicle or a method of solving a problem just like a formula. U can't say a religon is wrong unless you understand its objective and mission for example
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Now you're making some good points, religion is a tool just like you said. It can be used for good or bad just like any other tool like a hammer can be used to build and destroy. Religion can be used to inspire people to do great things and can it also be used to get people to commit heinous acts like murder. I'm dealing with what type of tool religion is, mathematics and the natural sciences are tools also.Religion is a tool that has been used to disable the masses
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 ability to think and research things for themselves and instead rely on the words of a book and/or some so-called prophet. And I can say a religion is wrong when it completely disagrees with well known established scientific evidence and facts.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 points I agree with you on: "Religion is a tool that has been used as a tool to diable the masses" I agree 1000% Also relying only on the words of a book or some prophet I agree in part. Now I don't know your objective but you indicated earlier that you feel that people shouldn't be divide at all. I disagree with that but I won't debate that now. my point is that in order to actually bring your objective into reality you have to inspire others to belive as you do
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 if you were to go through that process you would probably realize that you would be dealing with human nature and all of the seemingly unscientific realities of that subject. People have to be inspired to sacrifice personal objectives in order to contribute to group objectives. This is why religion is a fact and has been a fact in some form for over 6,600 years. it is a fact that is a very powerful weapon on the mind of people. now the laws of survival of the
supermike2164 2 months ago
fittest (natual selection right) if your enemy develops a weapon you must develop a adequate defense or a greater offense to defeat your enemys. If your enemy has a sword then you need a gun or a better sword or you will be defeated. If you know anything about nature then you know concept is true. I told you one of my objectives (empowerment of black people as a group) I belive the NOI is a invaluable tool in that process. being anti religon is being isolated and that is defeat
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 I agree with some of what you said. One thing I don't agree with is that being anti-religion as you called it, is being isolated. Like I said the non-religious population in the U.S is about 16% which is about 1 out 6 people that's a pretty large # for a population of 300 million that would be about 50 million people. Not isolated at all. In some European countries that % is higher for their population. I think a secular all (people) inclusive movement could motivate people even
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 more. Not using religion as an inspiration or motivation but using the idea of "TRUE FREEDOM AND EQUALITY" This is something the NOI is supposed to be for freedom,justice and equality. We don't need religion to motivate us to obtain these goals. The people (all people) need unity and a common goal for all of humanity. The NOI could possible be more effective if it was an all inclusive secular movement, but it wouldn't be a religion anymore. Look up the Zeitgeist movement in just
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 a few years they have hundreds of thousands of non-religious participants, that are actually trying to do something to make the world a better place. Also look up the Jacque Fresco and the Venus Project. These are non-religious secular,altruistic, egalitarian movements that have and are inspiring people to do something and there are more movements like this.
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Another thing I do agree with you on is that if your opponent has a sword you need something superior to defeat them, yes "superior intelligence will always win" At least as far as human civilization is concerned, history has shown whenever a superior civilization comes across an inferior civilization, they conquer them. I think Elijah Muhammad said "A civilization that doesn't know mathematics, will always be subjected to a civilization that does know mathematics".
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 I can truly say work hard and honestly at the way you MIND and heart is guided for the good
supermike2164 2 months ago
if I give simple figures like 3, 6, 9 & tell a group i need the GCF of these figures. Those that don't know what GCF is may give an answer of 18 those of us that understand the objective know that these people did NOT understand the objective therefore they didn't understand why or how we get the answer 3. U should realize that 1 of the objectives of the NOI is to empower and unify a particular group of people against an enemy who has systematically destroyed their productivity
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Ask yourself why do you hold the bible or quran in high regard. Is it because someone told you they were from a god. You can't off of what someone says or tradition. Where is the evidence? That's all we (homo sapiens) need to be looking for is evidence. We should observe the world for what it is, not what we want it to be. Darwin and Wallace got rid of a need for a god in the 1800's in regards to "BIOLOGY". Recently, Physics has got rid of a need for a god in regard
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 to the origin of the universe. So you see our origin and evolution as a species can be explained without the intervention of a god and the origin of the universe can be explained without the intervention a god. You would have to study biological evolution (evolution by means of natural selection) and physics to understand these conclusions, because I know this go against what you're used to and your religious tradition.
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 All in all it's been interesting discussing these topics with you.I know in the beginning you kept you accusing me of being emotional. I think you're actually the emotional one here and if you can get beyond those emotions and observe the real world for what it is,you'll gain a greater understanding and you'll begin to see for yourself.The teachings aren't wrong because I say so,they're wrong because they disagree with the evidence,just like all the other religions
Zag118 2 months ago
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@Zag118 4 the 3rd time all of ur points have been addressed easily Since you have convinced yourself that you are right you occlude any counterview. u shouldn't expect me to confine my comments to ur self made box The lesson 2 problem book states in the begining " This book teaches the Lost-Found Nation of Islam a thorough knowledge of our miserable state of condition in a mathematical way WHEN WE WERE FOUND by OUR SAVIOUR, W.D. FARD". The word when could indicate condition would change
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 There shouldn't be division among the people. the most honest conclusion for all people on this planet is that there is no evidence for a god whatsoever. Regardless of what people want to believe or what inspires them, there is no evidence. Someone can be brought up in a gang&drug area, abusive household and this can inspire them to get out of that and become someone great that contributes to society, that doesn't make what inspired them right or good. You have flawed reasoning.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 I belive I have an above average understanding of the messenger's teachings and I am with the mission of empowering black people and original people around the world. You don't seem to know this but the messenger told us that M.Fard would never just say something and it means just that there was always something that you had to interperate the meaning. This is what gives people who think like you big problems. And since YOU don't understand or agree It must be incorrect
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 How can you have an above average understanding of a below average teaching? I'm familiar with Elijah saying that about Fard and it's completely nonsense. This is what christians do with the bible that's why everybody has their own personal interpretation of it, even though the bible says "god is not the author of confusion", but since you can't defend it, it has to have some secret meaning and can't be taken literally, just like the others you're making up stuff on the spot.
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 How do you think Europeans were able to conquer the globe and aboriginal peoples?Partially because aboriginal people across the globe were to superstitious and religious.Europeans(Western Civilization)were able to put aside their religious beliefs enough to start a renaissance and scientific revolution that has changed the world.The wheel hadn't been invented in parts of Africa by the 19th century and there are still backward peoples like the bushmen who are still hunter gatherers
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 well if you read actual HISTORY and look at individual events you will find a common them. Use division amoung a group to cause infighting and betrayl. Study Blackfoot tribe of Native American history, study King Leopold's Ghost (book title). Also the european Maintained their religous brotherhood even though they competed with each other (between white countries). They used their THEOLOGY to win hearts and minds so once people were conquered the stayed that way
supermike2164 2 months ago
@Zag118 You see Zag this is a competition(race) you can't win as an individual doing your own thing because your life is limited and if your group's future is dictated by another then any power you gain will eventually serve your oppressors kids. In the NOI we have a Theology started maintained and controled by us we intend on groing this thing so it can create an enviornment that BLACK people can succeed and gain power just like Christianity 4 white/ Buddist 4 Asian Islam arab
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Also the non-religious (Atheist,Agnostic,Skeptic etc....) population in this country is about 16% that is more than other minority groups like the population of black people which is around 12%. And like I said before the vast majority of your top contributing scientists are Atheist or Agnostic and these are the people that have advanced technology and civilization. So once again you're completely wrong. Atheism is just the rejection of a belief in all deities, it's not a religion
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 you've also contradicted yourself on this message board so what does that mean?
"the teachings of the NOI aren't true at all" Yet you admit that many of the measurments given in Actual Facts are true? The part of Supreme wisdom that has 76quintillion m also says those were given in a mathmatical way so that we could remember the condition we were in WHEN the saviour found us. This should tell everyone that reads that these numbers will change or just given to teach not actual
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 No I didn't contradict myself,because the actual facts were known prior to 1930 some of it the 1800's and were probably copied from an almanac or encyclopedia.That's like me copying all the scientific knowledge of today and starting a religion with it and calling it my teachings.It wouldn't be my teachings,so the actual facts aren't NOI teachings just 20 copied facts.And there not "right and exact"but only approximations as if they came from an almanac.Almanacs give approx.figures
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 So now the 76 quintillion miles isn't actually the diameter of the universe? It's just there to teach us something? Wow! Really? Ok with that type of thinking or actually lack of thinking, we can say all of the teachings aren't actual how do we know what to take literally and what not? So you're admitting that all of it is bogus nonsense. Fard being god,Black man being god,yakub,motherplane and baby planes,origin of the moon,25,000 yr histories, etc.... ALL BOGUS NONSENSE!
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 The reason why you will be a bitter and complaining isolated person and will have no negative effect on the Nation of Islam is because you fail to see we are serving a function. This function (salvation of a destroyed people) you won't do. And the scientist that you trust won't do it either. I love to debate people like you because it motivates me to study more you have put forth some good questions but nothing that can threaten the core of our teaching.
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Of course you'll do another miscalculation and reply with more flawed mathematics and nonsense about emotions or something, instead of staying on topic and sticking to the subject. Explain to me how the white man grafted himself into a gorilla and in fact all the hundreds of species of primates that can't breed with each other. Elijah said all the "monkey family" is what he called it comes from the white man. Explain this. Of course you can't because it's nonsense.
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 As far as me having a negative effect on the NOI, that isn't something I'm trying to do. The NOI already is a negative effect on itself. The NOI has no real positive effect on the black community.So this function you talk about doesn't exist. Of course some people join the NOI and change their lives for the better,but some people find jesus or buddha and change their lives too. You and I both know the NOI has nothing and does nothing special. It's just a religion.
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 With all of that said,honestly I think I understand where you're coming from.When I was in the NOI I loved the idea of unity and brotherhood and I thought what the minister,messenger,savior represented was the truth,so I would try to defend it and ignore some of the flaws I noticed,but at some point you have to realize that even though you're ignoring the flaws they're still there and need to be dealt with.So I dealt with it. You haven't decided to deal with it yet.
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Now as far as the diameter of the universe being a fixed measurement of 76 quintillion miles (12.6 million light years) this is not beyond modern science. It was discovered in the 1920's that the universe is expanding by observing the red shift in distant galaxies. Also galaxies in the observable universe have been calculated a lot further away than 12.6 million light years. The nearest galaxy to the Milky Way the Andromeda galaxy is 2 million light yrs away
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 a different story the current mainstream theory about the age of the universe has major unanswered flaws and it has to do with the average temperature of the universe which about evenly distributed which is imposible based on 13billion year timeframe there are many other holes in this 13 billion year theory touted by white scientist. if nothing moves faster that light speed how does the universe go from smaller than an atom to the size of a galaxy in a trillasecond?
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Also your teachings say that the sun is 76 trillion yrs old which is not true if you calculate the sun's mass and rate of nuclear fusion you can calculate how long the sun will last before dying out it would be around 10 billion yrs it's about halfway through it's life now at about 5 billion yrs old. But if you say the sun is 76 trillion yrs old and the sun emits photons that travel the speed of light,those photons should've traveled 76 trillion light yrs?
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 Now I've noticed that you have taken SCIENTIFIC THEO-RY (similar to THEO-LGY) as fact and used these THEO-RIES to argue the NOI's THEO-LOGY. basically your taking modern science AS A RELIGON. Which is fine but if you want to get to the truth you must give credit where credit is due. Making statments claiming there is no truth in the NOI teaching is such a insanely false statement it seems emotional.
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 We don't have to take modern science as a religion. Science is based on research and evidence, we can test science. We can do the mathematics ourselves. I told you to do some these calculations yourself. Physics,chemistry,biology etc... isn't a religion. Your everyday life is based on the natural sciences. You don't understand and aren't scientifically literate so you reject the evidence. And the NOI isn't a nation so they dont have their own research facilities
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 or their own scientists to test anything. Modern science is also based on peer review so everything is published for scrutiny. This is not religion. The NOI doesn't publish peer review research because religion doesn't do research. Religion relies on a so-called revelation from a god with no evidence, whatsoever. Religion (including the NOI) is based on revelation instead of "INVESTIGATION". Science is based on "INVESTIGATION" instead of revelation without evidence.
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 How could those photons travel 76 trillion light yrs if the universe is a fixed 12.6 million light yrs. See these flaws are from the teachings themselves not even from comparing the teachings to mainstream science. As far the universe age being calculated to be 13.7 billion yrs old is measuring the residual radiation from the big bang the cosmic microwave background radiation which permeates throughout the cosmos, the expansion rate of the universe and temperature
Zag118 2 months ago
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supermike2164 2 months ago
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@Zag118 Zag as I said before you should calm down and seek understanding b4 you come to a conclusion. We are taught that Islam was given to us AS A RELIGON one thing this tells us is that there is theology (which currently may not be able to be proven) Then there is mathamatics which is what we currentyly can prove. If you ask a physic 101 student to prove that gravity propagates at the speed of light. just because he/she can't prove it that doesn't mean physics is wrong......1
supermike2164 2 months ago
@Zag118 Now you may not want to relize this but if you can find in the teachings or Actual Fact (something we all can verify without just relying on the word of whites) a contradiction this is something to have big concern. But even your statements contradict orthodox science. You say the universe is a FIXED!!!! 12.6 million light years where do you get this from? The universe is on a constant expansion according to science. are you talking about the diameter?
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 No it's your teachings that say the universe has a fixed and finite diameter of 76 quintillion miles which if converted into light years it would be about 12.6 million light yrs. This is what your flawed teachings say. I'm not saying that. If the universe is 13.7 billion yrs old than we would expect the horizon of our observable universe to be at at least 13.7 billion light years in every direction, not 76 quintillion miles(12.6 million light years).
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 Abell 1835 IR1916, which lies some 13.2 billion light years from earth
is the farthest reported star from earth 2x your universe's diameter won't even make it to the farthest known planet of these white scientist technology to view. even if you meant to put a b in front of the m it still would mean you are contradicting mathamatics.
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Wow you are completely wrong. you've misunderstood my reply read it again. I was saying your flawed teachings say the universe is 76 quintillion miles in diameter which is 12.6 million light years. See so your agreeing with me that your teachings are wrong. I don't think you know that 76 quintillion miles was 12.6 million light years so you're confused. Do the calculation yourself IF YOU CAN.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 Well I will say this to you its great that you have done the mathematics in the problem book and yes 12.666 x10 18th exponet miles probably was the diameter of the observable universe in 1930. Our supreme wisdom also tells us that there are 17 million black people in north america ( but we know this has changed) That is what islam is its truth and truth can change with time so we are taught to be updated to the modern time. now in science you have the Observable Universe
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 You're just really not good at simple mathematics are you? Even though Islam is supposed to be Mathematics. the universe was still 13.7 billion years old in 1930 so even though it is expanding it would still be at least 13.7 billion light years in every direction. the universe has not expanded from 76 quintillion miles (12.6 million light years) to 13.7 billion light years in 81 years. Please do the math yourself. You're really a sad case.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 which is what we know about as people and another definition of universe which is taken to mean any thing the exist. We also know that the lessons given to us in supreme wisdom were given to us for a greater purpose than knowlege of facts and figures but designed with partial aim of giving us an independant thinking. Keep in mind these problems were given to us to find the evidence to prove.
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 I thought you were the smartest NOI member I've spoke to thus far, but all of you resort to nonsense. Some have just made up stuff on the spot,some resort to name calling and call me a hypocrite and you're obsessed with this delusional idea of emotions,bitterness,complaining and isolated. Absolutely nonsense. You can't defend your flawed teachings so it's my fault or something is wrong with me because your teachings are false. Ya'll are a very sad bunch of people.
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 yes you say Abell 1835 IR1916 lies 13.2 billion years from earth which agrees with what I'm saying. We expect the observable universe to at least extend 13.7 billion light years in every direction (that would be the observable radius), but like I said that's the observable universe (because of the finite speed of light). The actual universe may extend a lot further or go on infinitely.
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 Basically the universe began as very hot and dense the big bang began the cosmic expansion and cooling of the universe if we rewind the clock which modern science has done we come to a singularity a beginning if you will and that beginning has been calculated be 13.7 billion yrs + or - 1%. Modern science doesn't pull stuff out of thin air like religion. If you want to know more study this a lot of the gaps you mention are from your gaps in knowledge not science.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 if you study the moon coming from the earth was a very contentious debate just 10 years ago. But just a few years ago most current scientist agreed with part of what Elijah told us that the moon came from a explosion deep in the core of the earth. All truth is Islam no matter where it is the origin of truth is the originator and that is why we strive to be upright to Him who originated the heavens and earth. you should try to rise above emotion
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 As far as the universe expanding from smaller than an atom to about the size of a solar system (not galaxy I don't think) You would have to study cosmic inflation. And you're absolutely right "NOTHING" can move faster than the speed of light. The nothingness of space can travel faster than the speed of light, it's information that can't break the light speed like energy and mass. The moon yes there is a theory that a collision with another celestial body caused it
Zag118 2 months ago
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Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 If another celestial body that developed in a separate enviornment then we would have a unique material on the moon and some on the earth as well but the moon and earth have shown to be virtually IDENTICAL in composition.
supermike2164 2 months ago
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Zag118 2 months ago
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@supermike2164 not an explosion caused by a god or scientist, but a collision with another planetesimal in the early solar system there was a lot of debris and there were constant collisions in the early solar system while material coalesced and formed planets,moons,asteroids etc....The conditions on the earth were not fit for any life not even microbial life during this period extremely hot and no atmosphere. So no you can't twist it to say it bears witness to your teachings.
Zag118 2 months ago
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@supermike2164 I will give you props though supermike you seem to know more and study more than the other NOI members on here you at least know about some of what modern science says you just have to study further so you can understand it and not just say it has gaps. science doesn't claim to have all the answers like religion which says it has all the answers but actually has none. Science is about discovering more about the natural world the way it is without preconceived ideas
Zag118 2 months ago
@Followingfist The government isn't after the NOI or farrakhan because they have no overall positive effect on black people just like the church doesn't really have any effect on improving communities. Sure there are people who join the mosque or a church and improve their personal lives but there is no improvement overall. gangs,prostitution,drugs have gotten worse in the communities. In fact a lot of that gang,prostitution,drugs etc... ends up in mosque and church.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118: That's on U! Make it plain..."unfortunately the teachings of the NOI aren't true to U." If U were the one to carry us home...then the U.S. Government would be coming after U. But I doubt this is happening. If it was then U'd understand the open enemy, the common enemy that we as a whole have. Then U wouldn't be attackin the NOI with ur opinions. U know why the NOI is so admired and successful? One of the main reasons is that the NOI doesn't go around droppin' seeds of doubt on ...
Followingfist 2 months ago
@Followingfist And nobody is attacking the NOI no more then when farrakhan or other NOI ministers talk about the flaws in christianity and the bible. Are they attacking christianity? I'm just sharing knowledge.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zig118: real talk man...I've been in the game since 88'! Seen it, and heard it all! bruh. I'm just saying at one point I was where u at. Until I had to re-study in the manner "AMRSBZ" spoke of...then I saw, truth for what it was. The reason I came to such a conclusion is ...Farrakhan said,"research what the messenger taught, don't just take hearsay as truth, and u'll C the Messenger is on point, with proto-semetic Islam."
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Followingfist yea I did some re-studying and all and tried to justify things but I'm a truth seeker and I have to go with the direction of discovering truth and unfortunately the teachings of the NOI aren't true at all.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118 "the teachings of the NOI aren't true at all."
these type of unscientific and faulty statements show that your judgement of the truth is faulty. are you sure you want to say the teachings are not true at all!! why not identify points that you disagree with that are not true
supermike2164 2 months ago
@supermike2164 I've identified a number of points that are not true, but of course since the NOI is just a religion and not a Nation that has it's own research facilities and scientists NOI members just deny the evidence and ignore the technological world around them like this internet we're communicating on. When has Farrakhan or the NOI debated any real scientists please refer me to somewhere where I can get the video. I was in the NOI and there were no debates against
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 any scientist that I know of. The NOI teaching isn't science and this can be easily demonstrated but NOI members are so scientifically illiterate that they don't know this includes the Minister. Tell me scientifically how the white man grafted himself into a gorilla and in fact how he grafted himself into all the different species of primates that can't breed with each other. Elijah said they did this in "message to the blackman"
Zag118 2 months ago
@supermike2164 I'm sure if you try to answer any of the questions I ask you you'll make up something on the spot that doesn't explain anything scientifically. This has been the pattern with NOI members they make up stuff on the spot because they don't know and there are gaps. Elijah and Farrakhan just make statements with no explanation and this makes NOI members make up stuff because there was no explanation to begin with and because those stories are ridiculous.
Zag118 2 months ago
@Zag118: it is about being receptive to truth however one senses it! How else would one investigate a matter without exercising the natural god given senses to percieve in the first place? We will be judged according to our perception. It is about investigating everything, that's what MFM did b4 he exposed himself to us, and I myself is one who has and still does conduct investigations. "AMRSBZ" mad a good point...."observe as U study"! How long were U in the NOI?
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Followingfist I began studying in 1997 and became registered in 1999.
Zag118 3 months ago
@Zig118: ........in fact-it is the base! One from among us is Supreme in knowledge, wisdom, and understanding. .."Ye all are God's, children of the Most High God."
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Followingfist it's not about hearing or excepting something it's about investigating everything and taking nothing on face value even NOI teachings. This is something taught in the NOI but not practiced by NOI memebers when it comes to NOI teachings
Zag118 3 months ago
@Zig118: my changing base on the teachings? I agree with U. But what makes the teachings right is how it proves the reality of GOD! This again...is the number one question in all of the theologies of Religion. This is my base!
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Zig118:.....Keep closing ur ears...that is not our problem! Our only job is to tell it!!!!!!! Whether one hears it, excepts it, or whatever is on them...!!!
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Zig118: ....U were once a member. If U didn't see this as a member?, then it would explain the level of ur open mindness. U should know that the U.S. government has detered our allies form fully participating with us (economically). Were not prior to 75, remember! Now, if U don't listen to Farrakhan, that's ur problem! U couldn't have been open minded while in the NOI other wise u'd have seen what divinity was. Being that U were once in the NOI, U know what to do. I aint telling U anything..
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Zig118: we are "the".."Lost and found members" of ...the NOI. the most despised and rejected (Shabazz) of all ppl. We the so-called negroe are the chosen! Ur numbers relating to followers and sympathizers is like the numbers of crazy ppl America accuses as being out of their minds because they've experienced the wheels. That's a whole lot of ppl to be calling crazy. Perhaps this number may mean they're on point!? U must understand the oposition to the NOI. I mean U don't know? U said U were
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Zig118: I was in the hood...active! I know what impact the NOI has on us and I know what it's done for me coupled with the fact that Islam seems to penetrate the walls of prisons more-so than any other religion, I think I'm qualified to say. Yes..black on black is still an issue, what do u expect overnight success? Ask the ex gangbanger or prostitute now in the NOI!? According to scripture we are a Nation. Remember 1st of all:
Followingfist 3 months ago
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@Followingfist I wouldn't call 81 years overnight. I understand where you're coming from but I was in the NOI and I know that that gangsta and prostitute mentality still end up in the mosque more often than not. I even seen a sign of it from you when you said "U got Farrakhan and active members of the NOI fucked up". people don't change even when they come in the mosque they're the same or even worse in some cases.
Zag118 3 months ago
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Zag118 3 months ago
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Zag118 3 months ago
@Zag118:..But that's cool. U could sleep on Dr. Wesley if U want too. But he knows what he's talking about! To fully understand the NOI consider his books and research of "Proto- Semetic Islam."
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Followingfist the NOI doesn't have a big effect on anything it's not as big as you think. there's still black on black killing and black woman being prostitutes. nobody's listening to minister farrakhan except the few thousand followers like yourself and the sympathizers and yall aren't doing anything and aren't a nation. if you were a nation you would have research facilities and your own scientists which you don't. there aren't any scientists in the NOI
Zag118 3 months ago
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Zag118 3 months ago
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@Followingfist if you told me that minister farrakhan called out all the Athiests that used to be in the NOI like myself I wouldn't know about it because I don't listen to him. you or someone would have to tell me. it's the same thing with real scientists they're not listening to farrakhan just like they're not listening to any religious or cult leaders.
Zag118 3 months ago
@Zag118:..U got Farrakhan and active members of the NOI fucked up...He aint scared of none of yall's opposition. As a has been U should know. Who are these scientists who want to debate him? Better yet go gather them up and bring them b4 our nation!; go back and decipher the very reason why we have specific stories of what happen to us as a ppl! Because thus far I aint seen no white or black scientist prove the material wrong. U all attack students and not address the teacher.
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Zag118:..based on unity today; then ur an enemy to our rise as a ppl. I say this to say...as I looked back at your presentations, they come off as an attack on the teachings by THEM from MFM. That said, are U saying MFM didn't know what he was talking about? Are U saying he wasn't GOD in the person? I'm dealing with the very base of the presentation here! To really understand the NOI and it's material, one must understand the coming of the Mahdi. B'cuz he is/was to bring something with him...
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Zag118:..U seem to present ur finding like ppl quote the quran. But not the wisdom to move the ppl towards civilization. Ur presentation is argumentative in a fashion who's objective is 2 uproot the NOI. The Messenger said b4 he left, that the NOI would fall and rise again, to never fall again! The NOI deals with the proper spirituality of us being. B'cuz there are many who know numbers and recite this and that etc., but to recivilize one, particularly blk ppl, if ur spirit is not...
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Zag118:..Yes...I appreciate being having my brainwashed! My brain and thought process was dirty when I was going to church on weekends and afraid to see thriller movies. I was dirty as I grew up and started shooting at crips. I was dirty sitting in 5% circles smoking weed thinking I understood supreme wisdom, then go out drinking hrs later. It was these teaching of THEM that help me put things and my life back into perspective with true meanings of the Ancient orders or our ppl.
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Followingfist I'm glad to hear that these teachings changed your life. It still doesn't make these teachings correct. some people find jesus and turn their life around some people find allah or buddah or some people find nothing like me I'm an Atheist I find nothing but reality
Zag118 3 months ago
@Zag118:..have had a wisdom that prevented them from becoming flaw while going back. So like I said, they (white ppl) understood enuff or some, but not all which with their natural inclination getting in the way...they couldn't quite reach the goal as intended. Thats why today...they look like civilized ppl with all this great architectural works but in their homes, the way they run/bully countries, and misuse their pwr and wisdom over it's own citizens...they are satan/the devil.
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Zag118:..B4 I give U the answer....Why does the Minister talk more Jesus than MFM? And why does the Minister claim he's universal (christian, muslim, hindu, Moor etc...?) I explained the method of yacub! The Messenger said...they tried to graft themselves back into the original, right? Well simply ask urself, how to do go back to a thing? U go back in the route in which one came. Which is the reverse action. If one goes back by going around and they make it without flaw..then they must...
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Zag118:..U keep expressing ur schools of white thought to disprove the schools of black thought or Ancient base math as if we are inferior. Their knowledge is of 6 ounces of braincells and U may have aborted the mission when U thought U had the full meanings of a part of the teachings (this is what most x-members do.)
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Followingfist no both of these debates I mentioned were ministers under minister farrakhan
Zag118 3 months ago
@Zag118: Those debates U've claim to have saw (perhaps here on U-tube) are not actual members of the NOI under the direction of THEM. As U know there are other "Nation" sects also. So u'd do good to clarify wich avenue their from 1st. U want a debate on sciences so...bad, why don't U bring it beyond this u-tube thing and present ur case and objective to the MInister. If ur so convinced for the sake of black ppl, then goto Chicago or something. Ur wisdom is not greater than THEM nor MFM.
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Zag119: ..Both yacub, the sun, moon, and stars is true! What U don't understand is the creator put in his ppl "a yearning" to do specific things towards perfecting human beings. This yearning comes about as a pre-determined idea in one who is born to carry out the duty or job of what ever yearning is called for. This takes ...time. As U should know, time dictates everything.
Followingfist 3 months ago
@Followingfist Wow! I appreciate your responses and attempt to try and defend what you believe. I'm familiar with all those teachings like I said I was in the NOI at one time. Unfortunately, you're absolutely wrong and have no clue about what I'm talking about or about real science. You've been completely brainwashed by the Minister. That's why it would be important for the Minister to debate a scientist about these teachings. When people see that he wouldn't be able to defend any of it
Zag118 3 months ago