@ItsKindaFunky It's true that it was a form of paying off debts, but it was VERY similar to our modern understanding of slavery. They were forced to do everything they were told. You were allowed to beat them, even to death (unless they died within two days).
If anything, it was even more brutal the forms of slavery we think of.
@ItsKindaFunky No. That was ONLY for fellow Jews. And even then, the Bible gives a method to force make them be your slave in perpetuity (specifically saying that they are property and can be passed on as inheritance).
But, thank you for demonstrating just how much religion can poison someone's mind. You are trying to rationalize slavery, trying to rationalize owning another person.
Congratulations, you have given up your own morality.
@ItsKindaFunky Are you saying that there is a GOOD form of slavery?? Are you saying there is some context in which it is acceptable to OWN another human being??
The slavery of the old testament is different than what we know of today. lots of doctors & lawyers became slaves by choice to pay debts back then. You can't compare it to our modern concept.
Ok so please read this and give me your opinion... He is an athiest and he says owning a slave is WRONG! But wait! He is an athiest right? If he believes there is no God then what is his ultimate source of right and wrong?
@3drumking Philosophy. Once you realize that, religious or not, you must co-exist with fellow humans, you realize it is mutually beneficial to act on common rules, codes, etc. It is what Dawkins calls "The Golden Rule," something all cultures have in common - Don't do something you wouldn't want done to yourself. Hence why secular morals and laws include things like "Don't keep slaves," yet religious morals don't.
@Dragonteuthis I am familar with the golden rule but your argument is simply invalid because The Golden Rule is not something all cultures have in common. In some indian cultures if the husband dies before the female then they actually kill the wife.
@3drumking Murder exists in all cultures too; it does not mean the "Golden Rule" doesn't exist. Personally, I'll take Dawkin and Hitchen's word that the Golden Rule is universal; if you have hard evidence implying otherwise, I'll gladly look at it.
@3drumking Morality is broken down into Consequentialism, Deontology, and Virtue ethics. Religion would have your morals fit with the rules and rituals that a god would lay out.
As simply as I can put it:
Christians: Doing what is right because you are told to
Atheists/agnostics/etc.: Doing what is right regardless of what you are told
@3drumking are you trying to say that having a human slave and beating them until they die is ok or not ok only if god says so and we human beings have no moral compass without god?
@3drumking his emotions would be the ultimate source of right and wrong, which is a lot better than using a 2000 year old book the bible says rape victims must marry their rapist, having consensual sex with someone the same gender as yourself is as bad as committing murder and slavery is ok. being able to change our views of right and wrong has lead most people to the conclusion that such ideas are silly.
having been killed in the holocaust would make you think that they would not commit such a horrible crime themselves..well look at palestine...guess the jews never learn
It's so weird to me when Matt lists 'You have work and are being productive' as something beneficial to the SLAVE. I mean that's beneficial to the slave's MASTER. And having regular food? Well they'd DIE if you don't feed them. And if you don't feed them enough they suck at doing slave labour, because they'll be to weak and they'll get sick.
I think that probably just came out wrong though. But ultimately slavery's not really beneficial to SLAVES.
I mean, I guess it's possible to have a scenario where one area has a slave class, and the slaves are not mistreated (Although really slaves always WILL be mistreated, because their masters don't want their slaves to get any ideas.) And to have another area where the people from the slave class are impoverished and treated as expendable in a vicious wage slavery system, rather then actual slavery. And the actual slaves may be SLIGHTLY better off.
Worse than all the above is the fact that it was Jesus himself who first introduced the threat of eternal damnation to those who do not believe. What kind of a "loving" god would do that? Christianity created a sexless parasite and placed him above and beyond all other imagined gods. What a joke.
It's a good thing that this god-man is fictitious and therefore need not be taken seriously. Unfortunately, too many others still do, and the world is much worse for it.
ummm i thought the only way you were to become a slave is if someone were in debt and they needed to work it off. but hey you atheist can believe in anything you want.
@jasonmarden "However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." Qoute from the old testament
I have been watching these clowns perform for some time now and have arrived at the conclusion that they are no better then the theists. The only argument their rants boil down to is that we cannot feel hear or touch or measure God in a test tube. So what? The other rants pertain to "faults" in the holy books. These are seperate issues but are regularly confounded by the baldy and his cohorts. The antisocial activities of religious people will exist even when all religion has been extirpated.
Matt! Get your facts straight. God does not condone slavery, the Bible does. (And so do most other sciptures). We know nothing about God. If we cannot prove his existance It does not mean we have proven his absense. Why do we assume that Gods existance can be proved/disproved? We can say that he does not seem to interact with reality as we see it but nothing more. So shut your trap. You are as ignorant as the bible thumpers.
@kidbuu187 Agnosticism is wrongly portrayed to mean that the adherent does not have an opinion. What it really means is that he thinks there is no evidence to support either position. Ok, so he is out of the discussion, we will wait till he comes back with position to defend. The atheist on the other hand talks about your position (believing in god’s existence) as being indefensible without taking his own position, thus evading the problem of having a position to defend. intellectual sophistry?
@azzy314159 I don't believe in a God, I'm Atheist. I know what Agnosticism & Atheism is, but that's not the point. I was just explaining what it means to be Atheist.
@azzy314159 atheism can be subdivided into weak and strong atheism. Weak atheists just do not believe, and are in that respect also agnostic. Strong atheists believe there is not a god, and therefor also do take a position.
I dont need to defend my weak atheism, as it is the default position of any theistic argument - until evidence support either position, disbelief is the rational position.
@azzy314159 an atheist does not believe in god, an agnostic does not know. you can be an agnostic or nostic atheist or theist.
for instance, an agnostic atheist doesn't know if there is a god, and so doesn't believe these is one. a nostic theist feels that they know there is a god.
@azzy314159 way to miss the point dude! They say repeatedly on this show that they don't believe the gods yet presented to them, they are willing to accept there is a god if what is described as god can be showen to exist, but as nothing of the sort ever has been shown has ever also been demonstrated to actually be godly,they are atheist.
All that exists is contingent to something else. The origin of the matter in the universe needs to be explained by the matter creating abilities of a non-contingent power. This non contingent power needs to exist by it's own necessity. Energy is proven to be non-contingent. Therefore a form of energy must had created the universe. Energy has the same attributes we give God, therefore is plausible that God had created the universe.
Growing up I always just played along with my parents, although I felt like it was a total waste of time. They hold their faith in such high regard, and back then I didn't realize how completely crazy is was. At 7 or 8 years old I had a hard time believing in all of this. Right now, I have absolutely no idea how my parents at 55-57 have lived all these years without taking a logical look at faith and realizing that it's all bullshit.
@Fkerpants You just totally made yourself out to be a fool. The bible is Not the word of any god. Its the word of some men who shaped it how they wanted to. There is no proof for the boogey man or god hence why Atheist compare the two. Dumbass
The fact that there was a flood, proves nothing. There was a flood almost 2 months ago, was that God?. There are also NATURAL disasters that happen all over the earth. You believe in a god that is fine with slavery, genocide, Plagues & eternal damnation for all who don't worship him. Sounds like another dictator to me & if Genesis is not "literal" than how can it be true?, then its just another piece of literature that has no evidence.
@ndrthrdr1 You dont need a tin foil hat to speak to god. It is enough to be medically insane and you can have long discussions with your imaginary friend. Many people that are mentally ill talk to angels and see demons and stuff, it is not a coincidence and it does not mean that is real. Just that if you are sick in the head you see such stuff. Most revelations and communications with god are probably mental illness.
why doesn't The Atheist Experience go on PBS isn't that paid for by viewers they would have a bigger audience to share their knowledge with or do you still have to pay to go on PBS
The word "homosexual" is more appropriate and accurate than the word "gay".
A person does not need religion, hatred or any kind of phobia in order to acknowledge important, qualitative differences between heterosexual attraction / behavior / marriage / adoption and homosexual attraction / behavior / marriage / adoption.
Homosexual activists, with complete support from the media, have succeeded at framing themselves as noble victims and martyrs; it's an effective way to push a social agenda.
The reason God supports slavery is simple...it's condoned in the Bible. God created us and has complete ownership rights over all of us. We wouldn't exist if not for God.
@VitalSigns1 God doesn't support slavery. Jesus, the complete expression of God on earth, clearly opposed all oppression. The Old Testament Torah is NOT the final example of what God does or does not approve.
@landsdown44 Jesus DID in fact condone slavery. Read your bible. There are verses in there that Jesus stated in regards to slaves...He said that some slaves needed to be beaten harder than others...So surely he's not against it.
@VitalSigns1 You who do not know the meaning of a parable giving advice on the Bible. Some things you should know if you decide to read the Bible instead of relying on idiotic atheist web sites. 1. The word "servant" and "slave" is the same word in Greek, the origional language of the New Testament. 2. The Point Jesus was making in Luke 12 is don't be careless about the urgency of serving God. Read Jesus' manifesto in Luke 4:18-19 and all you can find is compassion. You just struck out.
@landsdown44 Ah so you're sidestepping Jesus' words because they're uncomfortable to you. If you're going to call yourself a Christian, then be a man and stand up for ALL of the Lord's preachings. You know what you are? You're a phony, and you do NOT deserve to call yourself a Christian. A true Christian is someone who supports ALL that Christ said. You're just going to have to deal with the fact that the world isn't all sunshine and rainbows. I know the Lord better than you ever will.
@VitalSigns1 Ah, so your reinterpreting the words of Jesus because they don't support your prejudice. Understood. The only way you can make a point is to distort what the Scriptures really say. I support all the Jesus said and taught. Your attempt at distortion has failed.
@VitalSigns1 LOL did you see his reply with the greek word is the same for servant and slave? That makes so much more sense! Its good to know they just had a loophole for beating servants and not slaves! As long as they don't die in 3 days right? Maybe I'm wrong on the number of days. It is sad how badly this religion warps their minds to actually justify the horrid stuff that is in there =( I wish they could accept the good parts and drop the rest.
@ToiletBomb You are confusing everything. I said the GREEK word (doulos) means both servant and slave. Greek is the New Testament origional language. The punishment for slaves you refer to is in Torah, not written in Greek and not in the New Testament. The Torah, while by far the most compassionate law code of its time, was still far from perfect and God did not write Torah, people did.
@landsdown44 Thats right, people wrote all of it. Look, I don't care about the specifics. This is your holy book not mine. You can't separate the NT and OT and act like one is magical and the other isn't Even jesus said he was not there to change a "tittle" of the old law. I don't need the bible to refute Christianity. It doesn't matter because every point I'll bring up you'll bring up some way of avoiding it because of interpretation. You aren't interested in honest discussion.
@ToiletBomb I can see you are having difficulty making your point because there is NOTHING to back you up. I said REPEATEDLY, hell is punishment, but it is NOT torture. And yes I can separate New and Old Testament. Niether is magical. Jesus clearly changed the law by fulfilling it. The earliest church NEVER followed the law. You clearly misinterpret Jesus statement. Why who people who heard Jesus make statements about the law, just end the practice of following it. YOU are the one who distorts.
@landsdown44 lol, srsly lol. whatever you say. Believe what you want to believe since thats what you do best.
I agreed with whatever definition of hell you want. It is still infinite punishment for finite crimes. That is not justice. Furthermore it isn't my fault that you don't agree with all the interpretations of hell, of what jesus said or anything. He explicity said he wouldn't change the law. That is there. Sure you can separate all you want, that doesn't make it right.
@ToiletBomb While hell may be an infinite place, the Bible does not say that it is torture or that anyone needs receive that punishment, what ever it is, for eternity. .No one needs receive an infinite punishment for crimes committed in a finite life. Your accusation just isn't founded. You can try to make Jesus' statement fit your purpose, but that is not what it does. You don't bother to even consider why the earliest church chose not to follow Torah. The entire book of Romans deals with that
@landsdown44 I stopped calling it torture as soon as you said your interpretation did not include that (you see I at least agree to concede points eventho you fail to acknowledge that every single christian, church, priest has a different view than you) I don't care why they don't follow it. The Jews do, are they wrong? No one follows it to the T today either. Thats the point. There is no uniformity, there is no way to justify who is right or wrong so how can you expect atheists to believe?
@landsdown44 you claimed I made a verse up. I provided you the citation. So again I ask what does that verse say? The verse I quoted was in the KJV. You claim I don't follow logic. Show me the fallacies. It isn't my purpose. You're right no one needs to suffer those punishments it doesn't mean that the theology isn't there. Is it possible to be punished for eternity? Yes or no. If it is then that is my point. Again, you have refused to answer a single question while I answer yours.
@ToiletBomb I saw no citation. Further, I read Matthew 14:4 from my Bible. It plainly does NOT say what you claimed. I have shown how you failed to follow logic. Claiming any monarch who is unjust somehow shows that God is also unjust. That is precisely what you attempted to do. And the Bible does NOT claim that anyone must be punished for eternity. Also note that the Bible is a collection of writings that deals with God and His people for more than 2,000 years, of course it will be complicated.
@landsdown44 I never said because a monarch is unjust that makes god unjust. You said, "When a judge decides the punishment for a crime, that is not "oppression"." I provided an example of when a judge decided something it was not just. We call this analogy. I would make an argument for God being unjust but this was not my argument for such. You are claiming my quote from Matheww 14:4 from KJV does not exist. You are right I miskeyed, It is 15:4. Show me Matthew 15:4.
@ToiletBomb I understand an analogy. Your point still is not logical. You imply that since one judge can be unjust so can God. We call that an inference and it in no way follows. Thank you for making my point. In Matt. 15:4, Jesus is being accused of not following Torah. Jesus, in turn, is showing, by that quote of Torah, that the Pharisees are misusing Torah to cheat their parents. Actually, none of the Bible was written in the bronze age. That's just an atheist ignorant slam. It was Iron age.
@landsdown44 lol no I did not imply that. I merely refuted your point that a judge could not be called oppressive. Yes exactly he was referring to the OT which he later says he was not there to change. JFC, so you can use figures of speech throughout the bible yet we say bronze age vs iron age and you get bent out of shape. I don't even know why this turned into a biblical discussion, as I said you can twist it however you want. Thats the problem with the bible. This discussion is proof.
@landsdown44 so they made a huge jump in wisdom ... lol worship iron age tribal savages all you want. I prefer to base knowledge off of everything we learn and improve our understanding as time goes on.
@ToiletBomb Most of the made up stuff in the bible is stolen from other older civilizations so most of it is bronze age crap anyway. Worshipping invisible beings in the sky is not a measure of any progress whatsoever. Go down to africa to the remotest tribe you can think and they will be building houses of cow dung, casting evil spirits out of sick people and worshipping nonsense gods that noones ever seen. Just as they did in jesus time and that backwards people do today.
@The1VoiceOfReason Nothing in the Bible is stolen from older civilizations. There is the Babylonian Genesis and the Gilgamesh Epic. However, they hardly are the same stories as contained in the Bible. You are attempting to condemn the Christian Faith and you know virtually nothing about it or the ancient world from which it originates.
@The1VoiceOfReason Totally. Doesn't it make you laugh when you see someone nitpick over bronze or iron age? Just laughable, completely missing the point. It scares the hell out of me that not only people ignore all the stuff stolen in the bible (and then blatantly replacing holidays etc) while defending the horrid stuff as "out of context". As if there is some context in which stoning children is acceptable. Then lands here claiming progress while believing ... I'm with you, we can move on;)
@ToiletBomb If you actually relied on facts instead of made up crap you could possibly even make a point. You keep claiming the Bible stole all it's stuff but you can't seem to point to any facts to back up that claim. That's ok. I've had atheists make that attempt before. Those idiotic atheist web sites make up all that crap out of thin air.
@landsdown44 Lol myself and others have given you fact after fact you just choose to ignore them. How about every religion that came before the bible that has similar stories? Just coincidence? Are they the lies and the Bible is the right one? You see you still have it backwards. Provide one fact that proves the Bible over any other holy book and then I will bother with the bible. You can't so quit asking for facts as if you would actually consider them anyway. Pick and choose much?
@ToiletBomb I'm going to be blunt. So far regarding any documentation for your claims against the Bible you haven't given shit!! Show the older stories from which the Bible stories came. I already posted my familiarity with the Gilgamesh Epic and the Babylonian Genesis which do NOTHING to challenge the Bible. You are on complete and total empty. You have provided NOTHING. Remember, YOU are the one making claims against the Bible. The proof is up to YOU. Got it?
@landsdown44 There is a simple way to prove bible is crap and that is by reading it, if it quacks like a duck then it certainly is a duck. And your mormon bible quacks like a big fat made up duck full of lies, with some extra mythology on top that is "borrowed" from other religions, sorry mythologies since that is was we call em when people stop believing the nonsense. Your Jesus mythology only makes sense to very small children and people that are very gullible.
@The1VoiceOfReason It's amazing! You have made post after post, demeaning and distorting the Christian Scriptures and yet you have been completely unable to find a shred of support for anything. Here's what's totally clear. You got nothing but bullshit. Try again when you are more competent.
@landsdown44 What ive got is the bible and I find it rather sad that you call it bullshit, some people could be offended by that so i suggest we call it bull crap or a book full of baloney. Or maybe you have the mormon version what is that called? Book of fraud?
@The1VoiceOfReason So, once again, you are completely consistent. You are incompetent to provide even one shred of evidence to support your claims against the Bible. Typical atheist.
@landsdown44 Im not the one making the extraordinary claims that a book of jewish fairy tales is true. If everyone but noah and his family died that would mean were all descended from Noah. How do you explain different races? How can there be black people or asians? We should all look like descendants from Noah which basically means we should look like we all just stepped of a camel.
@The1VoiceOfReason You are the one making extraordinary claims against the Bible. I've been trying to respond to them when you are coherent. Most theologians have believed for a long time that the Noahic flood was very local. The writer of Genesis couldn't have known how big the world is. The flood probably took place about 9,000 b.c. Looks like you strike out again. You're getting shut out and it's the 9th inning.
@landsdown44 ok, since you are denying the world was flooded which is sensible, where do the races come from if we are all from adam & eve? and quit dodging the bullet.
@The1VoiceOfReason Here's another fun fact. Genesis 1-3 is entirely Hebrew poetry. It didn't suddenly become poetry. It always was poetry. In fact the name "Adam" means "mankind". The author was writing a poem praising the God of creation, not attempting to say anything about "how" or "when" it was created or "who" the first parents were. As I said, Genesis fits well with evolution. It is the fundamentalists who trt to make Adam and Eve literal people, distorting the text to do so.
@landsdown44 See the issue is you don't actually approach a comment honestly. You read into it and assume things. You don't care what others say and you don't even ask them for their opinion, Instead you put words in their mouths and assume. Thats right it is a collection of writings. I certainly wouldn't call it complicated. It was written by bronze age men. Look, you can say your interpretation doesn't include eternal hell but even the catholic church interpret eternal hell. Plenty do.
@landsdown44 Your very interpretation of the bible is exactly the point I've been showing you. It can be interpretted however people want. Again, I don't care about the bible. It isn't my holy book and it certainly isn't the basis for my atheism because God is logically self-refuting. If you want your morals from a band of brutes roaming the desert murdering, raping, and pillaging so be it just don't expect us to believe it without evidence. There is no way to know what is God's will.
@landsdown44 I told you, my disbelief doesn't need the bible at all. The concept of God is self-refuting. I'll even for the sake of argument assume the bible is perfect, no contradictions, no concerns with possible mistranslations, editors, unknown authors or any other possible issues. Omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent, or any other all powerful claim is impossible. And IF god is unknowable to our feeble minds then that makes him even less important to existence.
@landsdown44 You can claim I'm confusing it all you want. You are missing the points. The bible has known inconsistencies. Hell even christian scholars study the errors to try to understand the original prechange meanings. The concept of God as presented to me thus far is logically inconsistent and not a sound argument. When you want to discuss it let me know, goodbye for now. You've shown you aren't a good Christian and if you don't want to live up to your own code why should I want to.
@ToiletBomb So far you have brought up several points which avoid logic and distort the text you say you are quoting, even quoting texts that do not exist. When you are interested in discovering what the Bible really does offer get back to me.
@landsdown44 Gods dont write books, and if the god u happen to believe in is the only one that write books then clearly he suffers from writers block and he knew nothing about the creation of the universe or even the fact there are kangaroos in australia. He also did not know the earth was round and so on. Such and idiotic god does not exist but is clearly manmade by idiots for other idiots to believe in.
@The1VoiceOfReason I have never claimed that God wrote the Bible. I don't know any theologian who believes God wrote the Bible. The Bible is good with evolution, is not concerned with kangaroos and does not teach that the world is anything but round. The text atheists use to make that claim is POETRY. Maybe even you know how peotry is used. There is a lot of Hebrew Poetry in the Old Testament. It didn't suddenly become poetry. Any beginning theologian knows how to spot hebrew poetry.
@landsdown44 Poetry Bah! World is full of cooks that take that "poetry" seriously if youre refering to revelations. Also we have modern fakers & scam artists like that Joseph Smith that was arrested for his cons. Its all con and its not even very convincing texts since it full of stupid stuff like people living to be 900 years old and such other nonsense. How come the jews could live to be 900 years old before but cant do it now. Its all harry potter, bilbo stuff only less convincing,
@The1VoiceOfReason No I'm not refering to the book you are calling "revelations". It is "Revelation".So far all you've got are empty acusations. Have you noticed that you have yet to produce one single shred of evidence sto support all the crap you have thrown out there. The poetry I was refering to is where you claimed the bible calls the world flat. Now get busy and produce some evidence or shut up.
@landsdown44 You can call it Rejvalaziocone if u want its still goobledigook. Why should i produce evidence when you only pick stuff that is according to your worldview. If you had a serious interest in examining your fake religion there is books on the subject, so educate yourself. Also the one who makes extraordinary claims like you do with your invisble friend is the one that should produce evidence. Oh right it cant be proven he exists "how convenient".
@landsdown44 It isn't just the OT. Jesus did not oppose oppression. Condemning someone to hell for eternity is the definition of oppression. How can you even claim that threatening to send someone to hell for their beliefs that are justified by using the very brain "god gave us" not be oppression? This argument is asinine, god is the biggest self-proclaimed dictator of all time. Do as I say or burn forever. The NT is just as evil as the OT, this argument has been beaten to death.
@ToiletBomb When a judge decides the punishment for a crime, that is not "oppression". God is the ultimate judge. People who don't like the fact that there is justice often label judges as dictators or worse. You are in that camp. What is supremely clear is that you have failed to make the case that the New Testament is in any sense evil. If you bother to investigate Jesus' teachings with integrity, if you study the text found in Luke 15:11-32 you will discover just how wrong you are.
@landsdown44 Ok, so during monarchies when the "king/judge" declared it was ok to sleep with the bride of someone else on their wedding night because of "prima nocta" it wasn't oppression? Just because you claim someone has authority does not give them carte blanch to do whatever they want and not call it oppression. By that logic Saddam Hussein, the Taliban, and or any other dictatorial regime was not oppressing it's people.
@ToiletBomb What some monarch did has zero to do with making your point. There is a huge difference between a legitimate judge and a dictator. Nowhere does the Bible say that God locks his children up and tortures them for eternity. You are awefully good at making stuff up. I realize that you do it because that is the only way you can make a case. BTW the point here is not eternal torture for finite crimes. It's not even about torture. It's about punishment. Cont.
@landsdown44 thats right its about eternal punishment. I am still amazed you are claiming the verse I provided earlier does not exist. I am sorry but if you are able to deny reality to the point where you won't even admit that passages exist in the bible then it isn't worth speaking to you. I'm not the one that makes this stuff up, maybe christians should get their facts together. Again call hell whatever you want ... infinite punishment for finite crimes.
@landsdown44 yes, the monarchy is a valid point. You said I can't call what a judge does oppression. I gave you an explicit example of a judge doing something that was oppressive. How is that not valid? Just because YOU call something a judge does not make it a judge. You have to demonstrate it is a judge before we can debate the claim that the judgement is oppression or not. But yes, any being that demands blind worship is a dictator /shrug. I am sorry if the definition bothers you.
@ToiletBomb What a monarch does where the monarch is the law is not the same as justice. Because there could be a judge who is oppressive does NOT mean God as judge is oppressive. That does not follow. You have no logic. Here, for your reading pleasure is Matthew 14:4 "...because John had been telling him it's not lawful for you to have her." Again, not even credit for a nice try.
@landsdown44 You see I don't assume someone's knowledge or how much "integrity" they have without any basis. You say I'm the dishonest one wow. Is there any crime for which you would lock your children in the basement and torture them for eternity? If you want to tell me that is not evil then sure we have no conversation because your brain is warped. Eternal torture for finite crimes are not justice, in fact it sounds just the opposite. Justice is based about reasonable punishment per crime.
@landsdown44 Matthew 14:4 "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." Now I'll wait for you to tell me about "context" because there is some context where cursing your parents should evoke the death penalty. Please, I've heard these arguments before. And if you say well things are different now then you agree with me that we've outgrown the bible and that it isn't the word of god.
@ToiletBomb The Biblical statements regarding hell are not describing it literally. The Bible refers to hell as fire, as cold outer darkness, as destruction. It can't be all three. Again, your point is void. Further, Jesus nowhere says "Honor thy father and mother, and he that curseth father or mother let him die the death." That verse just doesn't exist except in your own mind. So, you can go on making pointless attacks against the Bible. You don't even get credit for a nice try.
@landsdown44 I don't care what hell literally is. It is infinite punishment for finite crimes. I don't care if the punishment is burning, separation from god, freezing or just nothing. If some people get a reward and others don't then it is a punishment. There is no crime you can commit that can justly be punished for eternity. I never said jesus said it. I said it exists in the new testament. Is the verse I provided in the bible or not? If you claim it isn't you are ignorant.
1. I'm not a fundamentalist. 2. Hell isn't fire and therefore, not torture. 3. The Bible doesn't claim hell needs to be eternal/infinite. Are you starting to get it now? And, furthermore, not only did Jeus not say that verse, it does not exist. It is not there. Getting it now?
@landsdown44 again, do you get it? I never said Jesus said it. Show me where I did. I don't care what you think hell is. Do you get it? The bible is so contradictory and there have been more explanations than there are christians. What proof do you have that your interpretation is correct? You would think an all powerful being would have a better means of conveying the truth of the universe. What is the verse at Matthew 14:4 ? Can you provide it for me please?
@landsdown44 furthermore, read Matthew 25:41, Matthew 3:12, Daniel 12:2, Mark 9:44-49, anywhere in revelations. There is tons of evidence in the bible for a firey hell or that it is eternal. Regardless who cares? It doesn't exist at all, arguing the specifics is a waste of time. Hell is punishment. Tap dance around it all you want.
@ToiletBomb One final time: the Bible does not claim that hell is fire. Hell might be eternal, but that does not mean it is fire or that anyone needs to be there eternally or that it is torture. The reason for the graphic description was simply to make the point that it's a place you don't want to go. I didn't say hell was not punishment. I said it is not torture. The bottom line is that God will never be present. That alone is hell.
@landsdown44 Again, that alone is hell. Is it punishment or not? Can you honestly answer a single question I have asked. I have even conceded you points because I understand every christian has a different interpretation. But you still refuse to actually discuss. You just want to yell your points at someone else.
You refuse to answer anything. You don't even acknowledge points. Enjoy making your strawmen all day long while pretending you possess some logical skills I don't.
@landsdown44 just like every fundamentalist I've ever spoken with. You ignore the actual point, claim it is a lie, and then respond to the point you think someone is making.
Answer the question,
Would you punish your child for eternity for ANY crime? Can you even show me the integrity I've shown you? I've at least read what you've had to say and answered any questions you've asked to the best of my ability. While all you've done is lied to me about what I believe. So christian of you
@landsdown44 We can go on and on providing biblical quotes and you can go on and on defending each but it is pointless. The whole premise of Christianity is illogical and contradictory. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is not justice. The character of God as described in the bible is evil and does not sound very wise. He created a system in which he knew I would be damned for no other reason than failing to provide the proof he knew I would require. But wait! he made a loophole! lol
@landsdown44 We can go on and on providing biblical quotes and you can go on and on defending each but it is pointless. The whole premise of Christianity is illogical and contradictory. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is not justice. The character of God as described in the bible is evil and does not sound very wise. He created a system in which he knew I would be damned for no other reason than failing to provide the proof he knew I would require. But wait! he made a loophole! lol
@kidbuu187 First, you ignore Jesus' description of the true nature of God. Then you cherry pick Torah to find what you want. While slavery is always wrong and God did not write Torah, even the chapter you selected is unclear to us today as verse 16 invokes the death penalty for anyone who makes someone a slave.
I know there is so little for you to pick on to demean the Bible so you have to distort what you can. When you got nothing, distortion is all you got left. sucks, huh.
@landsdown44 I'm not demeaning it. It's clearly there. The bible is also God's word. The chapter is not unclear. The bible was inspired by the "Holy Spirit" through man so how can it not be unclear. I'm pretty sure the 613 Laws he gave to the Jews wasn't distorted, He clearly stated it. "God" would not say something unless he was absolutely sure if what he said was okay with him. Exodus 21:26 "Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.
Respond to this video... Leviticus 25:44-46, 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
@kidbuu187 You're not paying attention. Please note the following: Torah makes taking a slave against the law and then there is the passage you point out. What we don't know is the context. Torah was NOT written by God. If you want to know God's view of slavery, pay attention to Jesus who clearly opposed ALL forms of oppression.
@landsdown44 I didn't say it was written, It was inspired by the holy spirit. It doesn't matter what was in the Torah, It's in the bible too. I clearly just gave you the passage, your just denying the facts i have given to you. I read the bible for many years. He's also fine with Genocide, there are many stories about that.
@kidbuu187 Just FYI, Torah is in the Bible. It's Hebrew for "Law". You are still cherry picking and totally ignoring the complete oppostion to all oppression by Jesus. Jesus was the fullest expression of God's will on earth. Torah does not represent God to the extent that Jesus does.
@landsdown44I know it's in the bible, i said "It was inspired by the holy spirit. It doesn't matter what was in the Torah, It's in the bible too" FYI, That wasn't the issue. The Issue is that God is okay with slavery and Genocide and all of these terrible things. for example. "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 5:18. Jesus said this.
@kidbuu187 I have have shown conclusively that the Christian God completely opposes slavery. 1. Jesus' manifesto in Luke 4:18-19, to give hope to the poor, free all captives, give sight to the blind, to free ALL oppressed. 2. ALL Jesus' teaching and actions were against oppression. That was his mission. 3. Your quote from Matt. 5 does NOT make your point. Jesus' point: the law stands until all is accomplished, yes via his death and resurrection. That was his point. Again, your case is on empty.
@landsdown44 My point was already made. You obviously can't count either. Why are you saying the Christian God?, Many religions worship your Genocide loving God. Your clearly have no morals and you just believe whatever the bible tells you. Your God said slavery is okay, Just because Jesus said that he doesn't support it doesn't mean your God didn't condone it, Also with Genocide, Plagues and other terrible things. Are you insane many verses bible talk about "Obeying you masters".
@kidbuu187 If you would bother to actually read the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth you would discover that he opposed all forms of oppression as he clearly said in Luke 4:18-19. But as with most atheists I suspect you are far to narrow minded to find out the truth. You are content to ignorantly accept what idiotic atheist web sites lie to you about.
@MarcusEFN The only people Jesus ever threatened with judgment were the equivalent of clergy, religious leaders because they were about power and not about assisting the poor and the oppressed. I try to be a follower of Jesus and have no reason to threaten anyone with judgment. That's not my prerogative.
@landsdown44 1. I used to be a christian for 16 years and taught many lessons to my congregation, so i read the bible daily. 2. You are judging me by calling narrow minded and ignorant, you as christian are not supposed to do that, only God can pass judgement. 3. I don't need to go on web sites to find facts, It's in the bible, i read it myself. 5. Stop generalizing atheist to be idiots because they want to gain knowledge. I already explained it to you, so i have no need to continue this.
@kidbuu187 Of course I am judging that you are ignorant and narrow minded. There is nothing in my faith that prevents me from telling the truth. I didn't judge an atheist to be an idiot. I judged atheist web sites that way. I've seen them and they most certainly are idiotic. They misinform and distort the truth constantly. Since they have no real case all they have left is to make stuff up. So, if you don't need to continue then stop already.
@landsdown44 “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.” Ephesians 6:5-6. This is clearly wrong, Owning another person is terrible and your fine with that?
@kidbuu187 You don't know a damn thing about the Christian God. You have no idea of the context of the Corinthian text so I will enlighten you. The early church in the roman empire was the only place you would ever find both slaves and masters where they were equals. Paul had words of caution for both slaves and masters. In no way was he endorsing slavery. In fact, an escaped slave came to Paul and he worked to provide his freedom.
@landsdown44 "You don't know a damn thing about the Christian God."? you had to phrase it like that? don't put the damn in a sentence as "Christian God" please.
Fact is, @kidbuu187's view of god is one many christians do believe in. Sorry, your version of god is just one of many and you cannot follow the new testiment without the old. Choose either some of the bible, or none of it (this does not mean abandon god, the bible is much newer than god.)
@gleehmee Are you retarded? I want you to re-read my conversation with landsdown44 because my argument was stating that god was fine with slavery. Their is no "point of view" in the Law of the old testament.
@kidbuu187 ...I am confused. I know that is what you were saying. I didn't imply that wasn'#t what you were saying.
I was pointing out to landsdown that you're not actually wrong on that point. Many christians know that's what it says, making their submission to the religion somewhat more disturbing.
@landsdown44 He's embraces them to follow it. another example "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Matthew 5:17. He clearly said it.
@kidbuu187 God is not a person and we have no right to judge his actions as right or wrong. He is beyond our own simplistic moral understanding of the world. We are his slaves.
@VitalSigns1 You may be a slave, but not me. You may sacrifice your humanity all you want to, but you have no right to expect others to go along with your barbaric mindset.
@fkerpants I'm not forcing you to go along with it, but I will say that in willingly blaspheming against Him you are choosing to suffer immense pain and suffering in Hell. It's just that I don't want to see anyone have to go there. Remember, once you're there, there's no going back. Make no mistake about it, you should be horrified of Hell. It is a very real place.
@VitalSigns1 Are you afraid of the dark? 'Cause that's where the boogey man lives. Don't believe me? Well, you'll find out soon enough. He's a very real man and can cause you all kinds of suffering and pain.
I never cease to be amazed at how idiotic that whole thread of belief is. "You'd better believe what I believe or you're going to suffer!" The only thing I'm horrified about is that people still fall for that idiotic crap. God is going to send you where you will BURN...but he loves you
@fkerpants Riiight...the boogey man is no different than the word of God. Why do you atheists always make analogies to fake stuff? Hell is not fictional, it's real. It says so in the Bible. So you see, it's not just a matter of believing what you like, you should believe in the Bible because it is hard, solid evidence that God is real and so is Hell. In a way it's our fault for not getting to your head at a young enough age. That's why I'm here trying to show you the TRUTH before too late.
@VitalSigns1 "Riiight...the boogey man is no different than the word of God. Why do you atheists always make analogies to fake stuff?" - Why do you make assertions about things that are just as unprovable and idiotic? There's just as much evidence of Santa Claus as there is God.
"It says so in the Bible." - The Bible also says there was a talking snake in a garden with two naked people at the beginning of time. Do you believe that nonsense too? Why don't you believe what the Koran says?
@VitalSigns1 " So you see, it's not just a matter of believing what you like, you should believe in the Bible because it is hard, solid evidence that God is real and so is Hell." - It's everything BUT evidence. It's an ancient book of savagery that people follow because they've been indoctrinated into believing at an early age.
"In a way it's our fault for not getting to your head at a young enough age." - QED
@VitalSigns1 Also - Ephesians 6:5 – Slaves need to obey their masters just as they would obey Christ. - Colossians 3:22-24 – Slaves need to obey their masters. - 1 Peter 2:18 – Slaves need to obey their masters, even if their masters are harsh .
@VitalSigns1 There isn't any distortion. I'm just taking the verses from the "Good Book" and giving them to you as evidence. Why are you getting so emotional? I'm having a debate with you on the subject.
@VitalSigns1 You also said "God created us and has complete ownership rights over all of us". So you clearly either support slavery or deny all the facts that God is condoning slavery.
interestingly, if the bible is supposed to be taken literally and seriously, exodus says the hebrews escaped from slavery
and then they say it's fine to have slaves? such a double-standard
infernalone666 16 hours ago
It's not the form of Slavery we are familiar with- can't compare the two-it was a form of paying off debts
ItsKindaFunky 1 week ago
@ItsKindaFunky It's true that it was a form of paying off debts, but it was VERY similar to our modern understanding of slavery. They were forced to do everything they were told. You were allowed to beat them, even to death (unless they died within two days).
If anything, it was even more brutal the forms of slavery we think of.
MrSchnitzel19 1 week ago 2
@ItsKindaFunky No. That was ONLY for fellow Jews. And even then, the Bible gives a method to force make them be your slave in perpetuity (specifically saying that they are property and can be passed on as inheritance).
But, thank you for demonstrating just how much religion can poison someone's mind. You are trying to rationalize slavery, trying to rationalize owning another person.
Congratulations, you have given up your own morality.
MrFungus420 1 week ago
@ItsKindaFunky Are you saying that there is a GOOD form of slavery?? Are you saying there is some context in which it is acceptable to OWN another human being??
RandyJ007 3 days ago
The slavery of the old testament was a self appointed firm of paying back debts
ItsKindaFunky 1 week ago
The slavery of the old testament is different than what we know of today. lots of doctors & lawyers became slaves by choice to pay debts back then. You can't compare it to our modern concept.
ItsKindaFunky 1 week ago
"Well first they treated slaves very differently in those days...":
"Yes, they beat them with rods"
LOL
BigBallaShotCalla15 3 weeks ago
@BigBallaShotCalla15: lawl
Steamsteam 2 weeks ago
The bible is a jewish folklore. The god of the bible is racist and freed the jews because the jews are god's chosen children.
NekoD3m0n 3 weeks ago
Ok so please read this and give me your opinion... He is an athiest and he says owning a slave is WRONG! But wait! He is an athiest right? If he believes there is no God then what is his ultimate source of right and wrong?
3drumking 4 weeks ago
@3drumking Philosophy. Once you realize that, religious or not, you must co-exist with fellow humans, you realize it is mutually beneficial to act on common rules, codes, etc. It is what Dawkins calls "The Golden Rule," something all cultures have in common - Don't do something you wouldn't want done to yourself. Hence why secular morals and laws include things like "Don't keep slaves," yet religious morals don't.
Dragonteuthis 3 weeks ago
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3drumking 3 weeks ago
@Dragonteuthis I am familar with the golden rule but your argument is simply invalid because The Golden Rule is not something all cultures have in common. In some indian cultures if the husband dies before the female then they actually kill the wife.
3drumking 3 weeks ago
@3drumking Murder exists in all cultures too; it does not mean the "Golden Rule" doesn't exist. Personally, I'll take Dawkin and Hitchen's word that the Golden Rule is universal; if you have hard evidence implying otherwise, I'll gladly look at it.
Dragonteuthis 1 week ago
@3drumking Morality is broken down into Consequentialism, Deontology, and Virtue ethics. Religion would have your morals fit with the rules and rituals that a god would lay out.
As simply as I can put it:
Christians: Doing what is right because you are told to
Atheists/agnostics/etc.: Doing what is right regardless of what you are told
ColourfulBandai 3 weeks ago
@ColourfulBandai *Assuming you were reffering to the Christian god.
ColourfulBandai 3 weeks ago
@3drumking are you trying to say that having a human slave and beating them until they die is ok or not ok only if god says so and we human beings have no moral compass without god?
switchbladeromancexx 3 weeks ago
@3drumking his emotions would be the ultimate source of right and wrong, which is a lot better than using a 2000 year old book the bible says rape victims must marry their rapist, having consensual sex with someone the same gender as yourself is as bad as committing murder and slavery is ok. being able to change our views of right and wrong has lead most people to the conclusion that such ideas are silly.
Corporatism 3 weeks ago
having been killed in the holocaust would make you think that they would not commit such a horrible crime themselves..well look at palestine...guess the jews never learn
FightForKissesTR 4 weeks ago
It's so weird to me when Matt lists 'You have work and are being productive' as something beneficial to the SLAVE. I mean that's beneficial to the slave's MASTER. And having regular food? Well they'd DIE if you don't feed them. And if you don't feed them enough they suck at doing slave labour, because they'll be to weak and they'll get sick.
I think that probably just came out wrong though. But ultimately slavery's not really beneficial to SLAVES.
TheSkunkCat 1 month ago
I mean, I guess it's possible to have a scenario where one area has a slave class, and the slaves are not mistreated (Although really slaves always WILL be mistreated, because their masters don't want their slaves to get any ideas.) And to have another area where the people from the slave class are impoverished and treated as expendable in a vicious wage slavery system, rather then actual slavery. And the actual slaves may be SLIGHTLY better off.
But that's not fun for the slaves either.
TheSkunkCat 1 month ago
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Worse than all the above is the fact that it was Jesus himself who first introduced the threat of eternal damnation to those who do not believe. What kind of a "loving" god would do that? Christianity created a sexless parasite and placed him above and beyond all other imagined gods. What a joke.
It's a good thing that this god-man is fictitious and therefore need not be taken seriously. Unfortunately, too many others still do, and the world is much worse for it.
(Yeah, yeah, thumbs down from
bestever41 1 month ago
I love that Matt knew EXACTLY which verse the caller was talking about.
LuckilyHeDied 1 month ago
ummm i thought the only way you were to become a slave is if someone were in debt and they needed to work it off. but hey you atheist can believe in anything you want.
jasonmarden 1 month ago
@jasonmarden "However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." Qoute from the old testament
FailARN100 1 month ago
@FailARN100 can you put the verse so i can look it up please thank you
jasonmarden 1 month ago
@jasonmarden Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT or you could just google the qoute.
FailARN100 1 month ago
Do you find something comical about my appearance when I am driving my automobile?
urantivirus 2 months ago 3
I feel for this guy..he seems like a real nice guy
KeySour 2 months ago
Interesting. No matter what Christians say or do, they cannot deny the erroneousness of their own religion.
Chuloloc 2 months ago
@Chuloloc Thank You.
kidbuu187 2 months ago
@kidbuu187 No problem.
Chuloloc 2 months ago
I have been watching these clowns perform for some time now and have arrived at the conclusion that they are no better then the theists. The only argument their rants boil down to is that we cannot feel hear or touch or measure God in a test tube. So what? The other rants pertain to "faults" in the holy books. These are seperate issues but are regularly confounded by the baldy and his cohorts. The antisocial activities of religious people will exist even when all religion has been extirpated.
azzy314159 2 months ago
Matt! Get your facts straight. God does not condone slavery, the Bible does. (And so do most other sciptures). We know nothing about God. If we cannot prove his existance It does not mean we have proven his absense. Why do we assume that Gods existance can be proved/disproved? We can say that he does not seem to interact with reality as we see it but nothing more. So shut your trap. You are as ignorant as the bible thumpers.
azzy314159 2 months ago
@azzy314159 The bible is god's word and if your right, then what evidence do you have that he said otherwise?
Atheist are not saying their is no god, their saying the the God that YOU claim is clearly not accurate and isn't real.
They have no reason to believe and that's fine, their not making the claim that their is a God, you are.
kidbuu187 2 months ago
@kidbuu187 Agnosticism is wrongly portrayed to mean that the adherent does not have an opinion. What it really means is that he thinks there is no evidence to support either position. Ok, so he is out of the discussion, we will wait till he comes back with position to defend. The atheist on the other hand talks about your position (believing in god’s existence) as being indefensible without taking his own position, thus evading the problem of having a position to defend. intellectual sophistry?
azzy314159 2 months ago
@azzy314159 I don't believe in a God, I'm Atheist. I know what Agnosticism & Atheism is, but that's not the point. I was just explaining what it means to be Atheist.
kidbuu187 2 months ago
@azzy314159 atheism can be subdivided into weak and strong atheism. Weak atheists just do not believe, and are in that respect also agnostic. Strong atheists believe there is not a god, and therefor also do take a position.
I dont need to defend my weak atheism, as it is the default position of any theistic argument - until evidence support either position, disbelief is the rational position.
MagnusNyborg 1 month ago
@azzy314159 an atheist does not believe in god, an agnostic does not know. you can be an agnostic or nostic atheist or theist.
for instance, an agnostic atheist doesn't know if there is a god, and so doesn't believe these is one. a nostic theist feels that they know there is a god.
TheYetoRieck 1 month ago
@azzy314159 way to miss the point dude! They say repeatedly on this show that they don't believe the gods yet presented to them, they are willing to accept there is a god if what is described as god can be showen to exist, but as nothing of the sort ever has been shown has ever also been demonstrated to actually be godly,they are atheist.
gleehmee 2 months ago
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All that exists is contingent to something else. The origin of the matter in the universe needs to be explained by the matter creating abilities of a non-contingent power. This non contingent power needs to exist by it's own necessity. Energy is proven to be non-contingent. Therefore a form of energy must had created the universe. Energy has the same attributes we give God, therefore is plausible that God had created the universe.
dejesusluisx 2 months ago
Growing up I always just played along with my parents, although I felt like it was a total waste of time. They hold their faith in such high regard, and back then I didn't realize how completely crazy is was. At 7 or 8 years old I had a hard time believing in all of this. Right now, I have absolutely no idea how my parents at 55-57 have lived all these years without taking a logical look at faith and realizing that it's all bullshit.
TheClintond 2 months ago
Is the world ready for the "Biblical Slavery, the Best Thing Since Before Sliced Bread" t-shirt?
3234718 2 months ago 3
@Fkerpants You just totally made yourself out to be a fool. The bible is Not the word of any god. Its the word of some men who shaped it how they wanted to. There is no proof for the boogey man or god hence why Atheist compare the two. Dumbass
Oldcartoons571 2 months ago
Slaves, the best thing before sliced bread!.. I always wondered what it was! XD
MrLittletomdj 3 months ago
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The fact that there was a flood, proves nothing. There was a flood almost 2 months ago, was that God?. There are also NATURAL disasters that happen all over the earth. You believe in a god that is fine with slavery, genocide, Plagues & eternal damnation for all who don't worship him. Sounds like another dictator to me & if Genesis is not "literal" than how can it be true?, then its just another piece of literature that has no evidence.
kidbuu187 3 months ago
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kidbuu187 3 months ago
Caller sounds like Hank Hill
drealgrin 3 months ago
The cloud in the background looks like a jet plane.
Freeisme 4 months ago
I hate fatt dillahunty so much.
TheBaptistExperience 4 months ago
@TheBaptistExperience LOL.
valkyrie034 4 months ago
@TheBaptistExperience why?
grahamsmith549 4 months ago
@TheBaptistExperience man christians sure use the word HATE alot so much for love thy neighbor.hard to tell if your a nut or just a troll
alltiedup217 3 months ago
@TheBaptistExperience You believe that you telepathically communicate with an invisible, magical superfriend, don't you?
Are you wearing an aluminum foil hat?
ndrthrdr1 3 months ago
@ndrthrdr1 You dont need a tin foil hat to speak to god. It is enough to be medically insane and you can have long discussions with your imaginary friend. Many people that are mentally ill talk to angels and see demons and stuff, it is not a coincidence and it does not mean that is real. Just that if you are sick in the head you see such stuff. Most revelations and communications with god are probably mental illness.
The1VoiceOfReason 3 months ago
why doesn't The Atheist Experience go on PBS isn't that paid for by viewers they would have a bigger audience to share their knowledge with or do you still have to pay to go on PBS
philosophicalreason 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The word "homosexual" is more appropriate and accurate than the word "gay".
A person does not need religion, hatred or any kind of phobia in order to acknowledge important, qualitative differences between heterosexual attraction / behavior / marriage / adoption and homosexual attraction / behavior / marriage / adoption.
Homosexual activists, with complete support from the media, have succeeded at framing themselves as noble victims and martyrs; it's an effective way to push a social agenda.
lightandbeautiful 4 months ago
The reason God supports slavery is simple...it's condoned in the Bible. God created us and has complete ownership rights over all of us. We wouldn't exist if not for God.
VitalSigns1 4 months ago
@VitalSigns1 God doesn't support slavery. Jesus, the complete expression of God on earth, clearly opposed all oppression. The Old Testament Torah is NOT the final example of what God does or does not approve.
landsdown44 4 months ago 3
@landsdown44 Jesus DID in fact condone slavery. Read your bible. There are verses in there that Jesus stated in regards to slaves...He said that some slaves needed to be beaten harder than others...So surely he's not against it.
VitalSigns1 4 months ago
@VitalSigns1 You who do not know the meaning of a parable giving advice on the Bible. Some things you should know if you decide to read the Bible instead of relying on idiotic atheist web sites. 1. The word "servant" and "slave" is the same word in Greek, the origional language of the New Testament. 2. The Point Jesus was making in Luke 12 is don't be careless about the urgency of serving God. Read Jesus' manifesto in Luke 4:18-19 and all you can find is compassion. You just struck out.
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 Ah so you're sidestepping Jesus' words because they're uncomfortable to you. If you're going to call yourself a Christian, then be a man and stand up for ALL of the Lord's preachings. You know what you are? You're a phony, and you do NOT deserve to call yourself a Christian. A true Christian is someone who supports ALL that Christ said. You're just going to have to deal with the fact that the world isn't all sunshine and rainbows. I know the Lord better than you ever will.
VitalSigns1 4 months ago
@VitalSigns1 Ah, so your reinterpreting the words of Jesus because they don't support your prejudice. Understood. The only way you can make a point is to distort what the Scriptures really say. I support all the Jesus said and taught. Your attempt at distortion has failed.
landsdown44 4 months ago
@VitalSigns1 LOL did you see his reply with the greek word is the same for servant and slave? That makes so much more sense! Its good to know they just had a loophole for beating servants and not slaves! As long as they don't die in 3 days right? Maybe I'm wrong on the number of days. It is sad how badly this religion warps their minds to actually justify the horrid stuff that is in there =( I wish they could accept the good parts and drop the rest.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb You are confusing everything. I said the GREEK word (doulos) means both servant and slave. Greek is the New Testament origional language. The punishment for slaves you refer to is in Torah, not written in Greek and not in the New Testament. The Torah, while by far the most compassionate law code of its time, was still far from perfect and God did not write Torah, people did.
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 Thats right, people wrote all of it. Look, I don't care about the specifics. This is your holy book not mine. You can't separate the NT and OT and act like one is magical and the other isn't Even jesus said he was not there to change a "tittle" of the old law. I don't need the bible to refute Christianity. It doesn't matter because every point I'll bring up you'll bring up some way of avoiding it because of interpretation. You aren't interested in honest discussion.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb I can see you are having difficulty making your point because there is NOTHING to back you up. I said REPEATEDLY, hell is punishment, but it is NOT torture. And yes I can separate New and Old Testament. Niether is magical. Jesus clearly changed the law by fulfilling it. The earliest church NEVER followed the law. You clearly misinterpret Jesus statement. Why who people who heard Jesus make statements about the law, just end the practice of following it. YOU are the one who distorts.
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 lol, srsly lol. whatever you say. Believe what you want to believe since thats what you do best.
I agreed with whatever definition of hell you want. It is still infinite punishment for finite crimes. That is not justice. Furthermore it isn't my fault that you don't agree with all the interpretations of hell, of what jesus said or anything. He explicity said he wouldn't change the law. That is there. Sure you can separate all you want, that doesn't make it right.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb While hell may be an infinite place, the Bible does not say that it is torture or that anyone needs receive that punishment, what ever it is, for eternity. .No one needs receive an infinite punishment for crimes committed in a finite life. Your accusation just isn't founded. You can try to make Jesus' statement fit your purpose, but that is not what it does. You don't bother to even consider why the earliest church chose not to follow Torah. The entire book of Romans deals with that
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 I stopped calling it torture as soon as you said your interpretation did not include that (you see I at least agree to concede points eventho you fail to acknowledge that every single christian, church, priest has a different view than you) I don't care why they don't follow it. The Jews do, are they wrong? No one follows it to the T today either. Thats the point. There is no uniformity, there is no way to justify who is right or wrong so how can you expect atheists to believe?
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@landsdown44 you claimed I made a verse up. I provided you the citation. So again I ask what does that verse say? The verse I quoted was in the KJV. You claim I don't follow logic. Show me the fallacies. It isn't my purpose. You're right no one needs to suffer those punishments it doesn't mean that the theology isn't there. Is it possible to be punished for eternity? Yes or no. If it is then that is my point. Again, you have refused to answer a single question while I answer yours.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb I saw no citation. Further, I read Matthew 14:4 from my Bible. It plainly does NOT say what you claimed. I have shown how you failed to follow logic. Claiming any monarch who is unjust somehow shows that God is also unjust. That is precisely what you attempted to do. And the Bible does NOT claim that anyone must be punished for eternity. Also note that the Bible is a collection of writings that deals with God and His people for more than 2,000 years, of course it will be complicated.
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 I never said because a monarch is unjust that makes god unjust. You said, "When a judge decides the punishment for a crime, that is not "oppression"." I provided an example of when a judge decided something it was not just. We call this analogy. I would make an argument for God being unjust but this was not my argument for such. You are claiming my quote from Matheww 14:4 from KJV does not exist. You are right I miskeyed, It is 15:4. Show me Matthew 15:4.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb I understand an analogy. Your point still is not logical. You imply that since one judge can be unjust so can God. We call that an inference and it in no way follows. Thank you for making my point. In Matt. 15:4, Jesus is being accused of not following Torah. Jesus, in turn, is showing, by that quote of Torah, that the Pharisees are misusing Torah to cheat their parents. Actually, none of the Bible was written in the bronze age. That's just an atheist ignorant slam. It was Iron age.
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 lol no I did not imply that. I merely refuted your point that a judge could not be called oppressive. Yes exactly he was referring to the OT which he later says he was not there to change. JFC, so you can use figures of speech throughout the bible yet we say bronze age vs iron age and you get bent out of shape. I don't even know why this turned into a biblical discussion, as I said you can twist it however you want. Thats the problem with the bible. This discussion is proof.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@landsdown44 so they made a huge jump in wisdom ... lol worship iron age tribal savages all you want. I prefer to base knowledge off of everything we learn and improve our understanding as time goes on.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb I prefer to base knowldege based on everything we learn and improve my understanding. Thata is one of the reasons I'm a Christian.
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 Is this sarcastic, or?
TheIncognitusMe 4 months ago
@landsdown44 It's right on
landsdown44 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb Most of the made up stuff in the bible is stolen from other older civilizations so most of it is bronze age crap anyway. Worshipping invisible beings in the sky is not a measure of any progress whatsoever. Go down to africa to the remotest tribe you can think and they will be building houses of cow dung, casting evil spirits out of sick people and worshipping nonsense gods that noones ever seen. Just as they did in jesus time and that backwards people do today.
The1VoiceOfReason 3 months ago
@The1VoiceOfReason Nothing in the Bible is stolen from older civilizations. There is the Babylonian Genesis and the Gilgamesh Epic. However, they hardly are the same stories as contained in the Bible. You are attempting to condemn the Christian Faith and you know virtually nothing about it or the ancient world from which it originates.
landsdown44 3 months ago
@The1VoiceOfReason Totally. Doesn't it make you laugh when you see someone nitpick over bronze or iron age? Just laughable, completely missing the point. It scares the hell out of me that not only people ignore all the stuff stolen in the bible (and then blatantly replacing holidays etc) while defending the horrid stuff as "out of context". As if there is some context in which stoning children is acceptable. Then lands here claiming progress while believing ... I'm with you, we can move on;)
ToiletBomb 3 months ago
@ToiletBomb If you actually relied on facts instead of made up crap you could possibly even make a point. You keep claiming the Bible stole all it's stuff but you can't seem to point to any facts to back up that claim. That's ok. I've had atheists make that attempt before. Those idiotic atheist web sites make up all that crap out of thin air.
landsdown44 3 months ago
@landsdown44 Lol myself and others have given you fact after fact you just choose to ignore them. How about every religion that came before the bible that has similar stories? Just coincidence? Are they the lies and the Bible is the right one? You see you still have it backwards. Provide one fact that proves the Bible over any other holy book and then I will bother with the bible. You can't so quit asking for facts as if you would actually consider them anyway. Pick and choose much?
ToiletBomb 3 months ago
@ToiletBomb I'm going to be blunt. So far regarding any documentation for your claims against the Bible you haven't given shit!! Show the older stories from which the Bible stories came. I already posted my familiarity with the Gilgamesh Epic and the Babylonian Genesis which do NOTHING to challenge the Bible. You are on complete and total empty. You have provided NOTHING. Remember, YOU are the one making claims against the Bible. The proof is up to YOU. Got it?
landsdown44 3 months ago
@landsdown44 There is a simple way to prove bible is crap and that is by reading it, if it quacks like a duck then it certainly is a duck. And your mormon bible quacks like a big fat made up duck full of lies, with some extra mythology on top that is "borrowed" from other religions, sorry mythologies since that is was we call em when people stop believing the nonsense. Your Jesus mythology only makes sense to very small children and people that are very gullible.
The1VoiceOfReason 3 months ago
@The1VoiceOfReason It's amazing! You have made post after post, demeaning and distorting the Christian Scriptures and yet you have been completely unable to find a shred of support for anything. Here's what's totally clear. You got nothing but bullshit. Try again when you are more competent.
landsdown44 3 months ago
@landsdown44 What ive got is the bible and I find it rather sad that you call it bullshit, some people could be offended by that so i suggest we call it bull crap or a book full of baloney. Or maybe you have the mormon version what is that called? Book of fraud?
The1VoiceOfReason 3 months ago
@The1VoiceOfReason So, once again, you are completely consistent. You are incompetent to provide even one shred of evidence to support your claims against the Bible. Typical atheist.
landsdown44 3 months ago
@landsdown44 Im not the one making the extraordinary claims that a book of jewish fairy tales is true. If everyone but noah and his family died that would mean were all descended from Noah. How do you explain different races? How can there be black people or asians? We should all look like descendants from Noah which basically means we should look like we all just stepped of a camel.
The1VoiceOfReason 3 months ago
@The1VoiceOfReason You are the one making extraordinary claims against the Bible. I've been trying to respond to them when you are coherent. Most theologians have believed for a long time that the Noahic flood was very local. The writer of Genesis couldn't have known how big the world is. The flood probably took place about 9,000 b.c. Looks like you strike out again. You're getting shut out and it's the 9th inning.
landsdown44 3 months ago
@landsdown44 ok, since you are denying the world was flooded which is sensible, where do the races come from if we are all from adam & eve? and quit dodging the bullet.
The1VoiceOfReason 3 months ago
@The1VoiceOfReason Here's another fun fact. Genesis 1-3 is entirely Hebrew poetry. It didn't suddenly become poetry. It always was poetry. In fact the name "Adam" means "mankind". The author was writing a poem praising the God of creation, not attempting to say anything about "how" or "when" it was created or "who" the first parents were. As I said, Genesis fits well with evolution. It is the fundamentalists who trt to make Adam and Eve literal people, distorting the text to do so.
landsdown44 3 months ago
@landsdown44 Then we are in agreement on that issue.
The1VoiceOfReason 3 months ago
@landsdown44 Do you read the bible?
kidbuu187 3 months ago
@kidbuu187 Most certainly I read the Bible, daily.
landsdown44 3 months ago
@landsdown44 See the issue is you don't actually approach a comment honestly. You read into it and assume things. You don't care what others say and you don't even ask them for their opinion, Instead you put words in their mouths and assume. Thats right it is a collection of writings. I certainly wouldn't call it complicated. It was written by bronze age men. Look, you can say your interpretation doesn't include eternal hell but even the catholic church interpret eternal hell. Plenty do.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@landsdown44 Your very interpretation of the bible is exactly the point I've been showing you. It can be interpretted however people want. Again, I don't care about the bible. It isn't my holy book and it certainly isn't the basis for my atheism because God is logically self-refuting. If you want your morals from a band of brutes roaming the desert murdering, raping, and pillaging so be it just don't expect us to believe it without evidence. There is no way to know what is God's will.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@landsdown44 I told you, my disbelief doesn't need the bible at all. The concept of God is self-refuting. I'll even for the sake of argument assume the bible is perfect, no contradictions, no concerns with possible mistranslations, editors, unknown authors or any other possible issues. Omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent, or any other all powerful claim is impossible. And IF god is unknowable to our feeble minds then that makes him even less important to existence.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@landsdown44 You can claim I'm confusing it all you want. You are missing the points. The bible has known inconsistencies. Hell even christian scholars study the errors to try to understand the original prechange meanings. The concept of God as presented to me thus far is logically inconsistent and not a sound argument. When you want to discuss it let me know, goodbye for now. You've shown you aren't a good Christian and if you don't want to live up to your own code why should I want to.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb So far you have brought up several points which avoid logic and distort the text you say you are quoting, even quoting texts that do not exist. When you are interested in discovering what the Bible really does offer get back to me.
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 Gods dont write books, and if the god u happen to believe in is the only one that write books then clearly he suffers from writers block and he knew nothing about the creation of the universe or even the fact there are kangaroos in australia. He also did not know the earth was round and so on. Such and idiotic god does not exist but is clearly manmade by idiots for other idiots to believe in.
The1VoiceOfReason 3 months ago
@The1VoiceOfReason I have never claimed that God wrote the Bible. I don't know any theologian who believes God wrote the Bible. The Bible is good with evolution, is not concerned with kangaroos and does not teach that the world is anything but round. The text atheists use to make that claim is POETRY. Maybe even you know how peotry is used. There is a lot of Hebrew Poetry in the Old Testament. It didn't suddenly become poetry. Any beginning theologian knows how to spot hebrew poetry.
landsdown44 3 months ago
@landsdown44 Poetry Bah! World is full of cooks that take that "poetry" seriously if youre refering to revelations. Also we have modern fakers & scam artists like that Joseph Smith that was arrested for his cons. Its all con and its not even very convincing texts since it full of stupid stuff like people living to be 900 years old and such other nonsense. How come the jews could live to be 900 years old before but cant do it now. Its all harry potter, bilbo stuff only less convincing,
The1VoiceOfReason 3 months ago
@The1VoiceOfReason No I'm not refering to the book you are calling "revelations". It is "Revelation".So far all you've got are empty acusations. Have you noticed that you have yet to produce one single shred of evidence sto support all the crap you have thrown out there. The poetry I was refering to is where you claimed the bible calls the world flat. Now get busy and produce some evidence or shut up.
landsdown44 3 months ago
@landsdown44 You can call it Rejvalaziocone if u want its still goobledigook. Why should i produce evidence when you only pick stuff that is according to your worldview. If you had a serious interest in examining your fake religion there is books on the subject, so educate yourself. Also the one who makes extraordinary claims like you do with your invisble friend is the one that should produce evidence. Oh right it cant be proven he exists "how convenient".
The1VoiceOfReason 3 months ago
@landsdown44 It isn't just the OT. Jesus did not oppose oppression. Condemning someone to hell for eternity is the definition of oppression. How can you even claim that threatening to send someone to hell for their beliefs that are justified by using the very brain "god gave us" not be oppression? This argument is asinine, god is the biggest self-proclaimed dictator of all time. Do as I say or burn forever. The NT is just as evil as the OT, this argument has been beaten to death.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb When a judge decides the punishment for a crime, that is not "oppression". God is the ultimate judge. People who don't like the fact that there is justice often label judges as dictators or worse. You are in that camp. What is supremely clear is that you have failed to make the case that the New Testament is in any sense evil. If you bother to investigate Jesus' teachings with integrity, if you study the text found in Luke 15:11-32 you will discover just how wrong you are.
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 Ok, so during monarchies when the "king/judge" declared it was ok to sleep with the bride of someone else on their wedding night because of "prima nocta" it wasn't oppression? Just because you claim someone has authority does not give them carte blanch to do whatever they want and not call it oppression. By that logic Saddam Hussein, the Taliban, and or any other dictatorial regime was not oppressing it's people.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb What some monarch did has zero to do with making your point. There is a huge difference between a legitimate judge and a dictator. Nowhere does the Bible say that God locks his children up and tortures them for eternity. You are awefully good at making stuff up. I realize that you do it because that is the only way you can make a case. BTW the point here is not eternal torture for finite crimes. It's not even about torture. It's about punishment. Cont.
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 thats right its about eternal punishment. I am still amazed you are claiming the verse I provided earlier does not exist. I am sorry but if you are able to deny reality to the point where you won't even admit that passages exist in the bible then it isn't worth speaking to you. I'm not the one that makes this stuff up, maybe christians should get their facts together. Again call hell whatever you want ... infinite punishment for finite crimes.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@landsdown44 yes, the monarchy is a valid point. You said I can't call what a judge does oppression. I gave you an explicit example of a judge doing something that was oppressive. How is that not valid? Just because YOU call something a judge does not make it a judge. You have to demonstrate it is a judge before we can debate the claim that the judgement is oppression or not. But yes, any being that demands blind worship is a dictator /shrug. I am sorry if the definition bothers you.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb What a monarch does where the monarch is the law is not the same as justice. Because there could be a judge who is oppressive does NOT mean God as judge is oppressive. That does not follow. You have no logic. Here, for your reading pleasure is Matthew 14:4 "...because John had been telling him it's not lawful for you to have her." Again, not even credit for a nice try.
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 You see I don't assume someone's knowledge or how much "integrity" they have without any basis. You say I'm the dishonest one wow. Is there any crime for which you would lock your children in the basement and torture them for eternity? If you want to tell me that is not evil then sure we have no conversation because your brain is warped. Eternal torture for finite crimes are not justice, in fact it sounds just the opposite. Justice is based about reasonable punishment per crime.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@landsdown44 Matthew 14:4 "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." Now I'll wait for you to tell me about "context" because there is some context where cursing your parents should evoke the death penalty. Please, I've heard these arguments before. And if you say well things are different now then you agree with me that we've outgrown the bible and that it isn't the word of god.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb The Biblical statements regarding hell are not describing it literally. The Bible refers to hell as fire, as cold outer darkness, as destruction. It can't be all three. Again, your point is void. Further, Jesus nowhere says "Honor thy father and mother, and he that curseth father or mother let him die the death." That verse just doesn't exist except in your own mind. So, you can go on making pointless attacks against the Bible. You don't even get credit for a nice try.
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 I don't care what hell literally is. It is infinite punishment for finite crimes. I don't care if the punishment is burning, separation from god, freezing or just nothing. If some people get a reward and others don't then it is a punishment. There is no crime you can commit that can justly be punished for eternity. I never said jesus said it. I said it exists in the new testament. Is the verse I provided in the bible or not? If you claim it isn't you are ignorant.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb I'll try to help you.
1. I'm not a fundamentalist. 2. Hell isn't fire and therefore, not torture. 3. The Bible doesn't claim hell needs to be eternal/infinite. Are you starting to get it now? And, furthermore, not only did Jeus not say that verse, it does not exist. It is not there. Getting it now?
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 again, do you get it? I never said Jesus said it. Show me where I did. I don't care what you think hell is. Do you get it? The bible is so contradictory and there have been more explanations than there are christians. What proof do you have that your interpretation is correct? You would think an all powerful being would have a better means of conveying the truth of the universe. What is the verse at Matthew 14:4 ? Can you provide it for me please?
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@landsdown44 furthermore, read Matthew 25:41, Matthew 3:12, Daniel 12:2, Mark 9:44-49, anywhere in revelations. There is tons of evidence in the bible for a firey hell or that it is eternal. Regardless who cares? It doesn't exist at all, arguing the specifics is a waste of time. Hell is punishment. Tap dance around it all you want.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@ToiletBomb One final time: the Bible does not claim that hell is fire. Hell might be eternal, but that does not mean it is fire or that anyone needs to be there eternally or that it is torture. The reason for the graphic description was simply to make the point that it's a place you don't want to go. I didn't say hell was not punishment. I said it is not torture. The bottom line is that God will never be present. That alone is hell.
landsdown44 4 months ago
@landsdown44 Again, that alone is hell. Is it punishment or not? Can you honestly answer a single question I have asked. I have even conceded you points because I understand every christian has a different interpretation. But you still refuse to actually discuss. You just want to yell your points at someone else.
You refuse to answer anything. You don't even acknowledge points. Enjoy making your strawmen all day long while pretending you possess some logical skills I don't.
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@landsdown44 just like every fundamentalist I've ever spoken with. You ignore the actual point, claim it is a lie, and then respond to the point you think someone is making.
Answer the question,
Would you punish your child for eternity for ANY crime? Can you even show me the integrity I've shown you? I've at least read what you've had to say and answered any questions you've asked to the best of my ability. While all you've done is lied to me about what I believe. So christian of you
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@landsdown44 We can go on and on providing biblical quotes and you can go on and on defending each but it is pointless. The whole premise of Christianity is illogical and contradictory. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is not justice. The character of God as described in the bible is evil and does not sound very wise. He created a system in which he knew I would be damned for no other reason than failing to provide the proof he knew I would require. But wait! he made a loophole! lol
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@landsdown44 We can go on and on providing biblical quotes and you can go on and on defending each but it is pointless. The whole premise of Christianity is illogical and contradictory. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is not justice. The character of God as described in the bible is evil and does not sound very wise. He created a system in which he knew I would be damned for no other reason than failing to provide the proof he knew I would require. But wait! he made a loophole! lol
ToiletBomb 4 months ago
@landsdown44 He's fine with slavery, Read Exodus 21.
kidbuu187 3 months ago
@kidbuu187 First, you ignore Jesus' description of the true nature of God. Then you cherry pick Torah to find what you want. While slavery is always wrong and God did not write Torah, even the chapter you selected is unclear to us today as verse 16 invokes the death penalty for anyone who makes someone a slave.
I know there is so little for you to pick on to demean the Bible so you have to distort what you can. When you got nothing, distortion is all you got left. sucks, huh.
landsdown44 3 months ago
@landsdown44 I'm not demeaning it. It's clearly there. The bible is also God's word. The chapter is not unclear. The bible was inspired by the "Holy Spirit" through man so how can it not be unclear. I'm pretty sure the 613 Laws he gave to the Jews wasn't distorted, He clearly stated it. "God" would not say something unless he was absolutely sure if what he said was okay with him. Exodus 21:26 "Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.
kidbuu187 3 months ago
Respond to this video... Leviticus 25:44-46, 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
kidbuu187 3 months ago
@kidbuu187 You're not paying attention. Please note the following: Torah makes taking a slave against the law and then there is the passage you point out. What we don't know is the context. Torah was NOT written by God. If you want to know God's view of slavery, pay attention to Jesus who clearly opposed ALL forms of oppression.
landsdown44 3 months ago
@landsdown44 I didn't say it was written, It was inspired by the holy spirit. It doesn't matter what was in the Torah, It's in the bible too. I clearly just gave you the passage, your just denying the facts i have given to you. I read the bible for many years. He's also fine with Genocide, there are many stories about that.
kidbuu187 3 months ago
@kidbuu187 Just FYI, Torah is in the Bible. It's Hebrew for "Law". You are still cherry picking and totally ignoring the complete oppostion to all oppression by Jesus. Jesus was the fullest expression of God's will on earth. Torah does not represent God to the extent that Jesus does.
landsdown44 3 months ago 2
@landsdown44I know it's in the bible, i said "It was inspired by the holy spirit. It doesn't matter what was in the Torah, It's in the bible too" FYI, That wasn't the issue. The Issue is that God is okay with slavery and Genocide and all of these terrible things. for example. "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 5:18. Jesus said this.
kidbuu187 3 months ago
@kidbuu187 I have have shown conclusively that the Christian God completely opposes slavery. 1. Jesus' manifesto in Luke 4:18-19, to give hope to the poor, free all captives, give sight to the blind, to free ALL oppressed. 2. ALL Jesus' teaching and actions were against oppression. That was his mission. 3. Your quote from Matt. 5 does NOT make your point. Jesus' point: the law stands until all is accomplished, yes via his death and resurrection. That was his point. Again, your case is on empty.
landsdown44 2 months ago
@landsdown44 My point was already made. You obviously can't count either. Why are you saying the Christian God?, Many religions worship your Genocide loving God. Your clearly have no morals and you just believe whatever the bible tells you. Your God said slavery is okay, Just because Jesus said that he doesn't support it doesn't mean your God didn't condone it, Also with Genocide, Plagues and other terrible things. Are you insane many verses bible talk about "Obeying you masters".
kidbuu187 2 months ago
@kidbuu187 If you would bother to actually read the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth you would discover that he opposed all forms of oppression as he clearly said in Luke 4:18-19. But as with most atheists I suspect you are far to narrow minded to find out the truth. You are content to ignorantly accept what idiotic atheist web sites lie to you about.
landsdown44 2 months ago
@landsdown44 Huh? I was expecting you to threaten us with your imaginary hell.
MarcusEFN 2 months ago
@MarcusEFN The only people Jesus ever threatened with judgment were the equivalent of clergy, religious leaders because they were about power and not about assisting the poor and the oppressed. I try to be a follower of Jesus and have no reason to threaten anyone with judgment. That's not my prerogative.
landsdown44 2 months ago
@landsdown44 1. I used to be a christian for 16 years and taught many lessons to my congregation, so i read the bible daily. 2. You are judging me by calling narrow minded and ignorant, you as christian are not supposed to do that, only God can pass judgement. 3. I don't need to go on web sites to find facts, It's in the bible, i read it myself. 5. Stop generalizing atheist to be idiots because they want to gain knowledge. I already explained it to you, so i have no need to continue this.
kidbuu187 2 months ago
@kidbuu187 Of course I am judging that you are ignorant and narrow minded. There is nothing in my faith that prevents me from telling the truth. I didn't judge an atheist to be an idiot. I judged atheist web sites that way. I've seen them and they most certainly are idiotic. They misinform and distort the truth constantly. Since they have no real case all they have left is to make stuff up. So, if you don't need to continue then stop already.
landsdown44 2 months ago
@landsdown44 “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.” Ephesians 6:5-6. This is clearly wrong, Owning another person is terrible and your fine with that?
kidbuu187 2 months ago
@kidbuu187 You don't know a damn thing about the Christian God. You have no idea of the context of the Corinthian text so I will enlighten you. The early church in the roman empire was the only place you would ever find both slaves and masters where they were equals. Paul had words of caution for both slaves and masters. In no way was he endorsing slavery. In fact, an escaped slave came to Paul and he worked to provide his freedom.
landsdown44 2 months ago
@landsdown44 "You don't know a damn thing about the Christian God."? you had to phrase it like that? don't put the damn in a sentence as "Christian God" please.
Fact is, @kidbuu187's view of god is one many christians do believe in. Sorry, your version of god is just one of many and you cannot follow the new testiment without the old. Choose either some of the bible, or none of it (this does not mean abandon god, the bible is much newer than god.)
gleehmee 2 months ago
@gleehmee Not only am I not entitled to my opinions, I'm not entitled to my own wording? Here's a suggestion. You write your way and I'll write mine.
landsdown44 2 months ago
@landsdown44 You wording is insulting regarding what you claim to believe.
gleehmee 2 months ago
@gleehmee Are you retarded? I want you to re-read my conversation with landsdown44 because my argument was stating that god was fine with slavery. Their is no "point of view" in the Law of the old testament.
kidbuu187 2 months ago
@kidbuu187 ...I am confused. I know that is what you were saying. I didn't imply that wasn'#t what you were saying.
I was pointing out to landsdown that you're not actually wrong on that point. Many christians know that's what it says, making their submission to the religion somewhat more disturbing.
gleehmee 2 months ago
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@landsdown44 He's embraces them to follow it. another example "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Matthew 5:17. He clearly said it.
kidbuu187 3 months ago
@VitalSigns1 So your fine with people owning other people? that doesn't seem wrong to you?
kidbuu187 3 months ago
@kidbuu187 God is not a person and we have no right to judge his actions as right or wrong. He is beyond our own simplistic moral understanding of the world. We are his slaves.
VitalSigns1 3 months ago
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@VitalSigns1 Maybe you but not me.
metyzermanfan19 3 months ago
@VitalSigns1 I'm pretty sure owning someone else beyond their will is bad.
kidbuu187 3 months ago
@VitalSigns1 You may be a slave, but not me. You may sacrifice your humanity all you want to, but you have no right to expect others to go along with your barbaric mindset.
fkerpants 3 months ago
@fkerpants I'm not forcing you to go along with it, but I will say that in willingly blaspheming against Him you are choosing to suffer immense pain and suffering in Hell. It's just that I don't want to see anyone have to go there. Remember, once you're there, there's no going back. Make no mistake about it, you should be horrified of Hell. It is a very real place.
VitalSigns1 3 months ago
@VitalSigns1 Are you afraid of the dark? 'Cause that's where the boogey man lives. Don't believe me? Well, you'll find out soon enough. He's a very real man and can cause you all kinds of suffering and pain.
I never cease to be amazed at how idiotic that whole thread of belief is. "You'd better believe what I believe or you're going to suffer!" The only thing I'm horrified about is that people still fall for that idiotic crap. God is going to send you where you will BURN...but he loves you
fkerpants 3 months ago
@fkerpants Riiight...the boogey man is no different than the word of God. Why do you atheists always make analogies to fake stuff? Hell is not fictional, it's real. It says so in the Bible. So you see, it's not just a matter of believing what you like, you should believe in the Bible because it is hard, solid evidence that God is real and so is Hell. In a way it's our fault for not getting to your head at a young enough age. That's why I'm here trying to show you the TRUTH before too late.
VitalSigns1 3 months ago
@VitalSigns1 "Riiight...the boogey man is no different than the word of God. Why do you atheists always make analogies to fake stuff?" - Why do you make assertions about things that are just as unprovable and idiotic? There's just as much evidence of Santa Claus as there is God.
"It says so in the Bible." - The Bible also says there was a talking snake in a garden with two naked people at the beginning of time. Do you believe that nonsense too? Why don't you believe what the Koran says?
fkerpants 2 months ago
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@VitalSigns1 " So you see, it's not just a matter of believing what you like, you should believe in the Bible because it is hard, solid evidence that God is real and so is Hell." - It's everything BUT evidence. It's an ancient book of savagery that people follow because they've been indoctrinated into believing at an early age.
"In a way it's our fault for not getting to your head at a young enough age." - QED
fkerpants 2 months ago
@VitalSigns1 Your God made hell, He sends whoever doesn't worship him. He's an asshole.
kidbuu187 2 months ago
@VitalSigns1 Also - Ephesians 6:5 – Slaves need to obey their masters just as they would obey Christ. - Colossians 3:22-24 – Slaves need to obey their masters. - 1 Peter 2:18 – Slaves need to obey their masters, even if their masters are harsh .
kidbuu187 3 months ago
@VitalSigns1 There isn't any distortion. I'm just taking the verses from the "Good Book" and giving them to you as evidence. Why are you getting so emotional? I'm having a debate with you on the subject.
kidbuu187 3 months ago
@VitalSigns1 You also said "God created us and has complete ownership rights over all of us". So you clearly either support slavery or deny all the facts that God is condoning slavery.
kidbuu187 3 months ago
@kidbuu187 As I said, we are slaves to God, and he has every right to own us.
VitalSigns1 3 months ago
@VitalSigns1 Your Insane.
kidbuu187 3 months ago
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@kidbuu187 You have no right to call God's word insane.
VitalSigns1 3 months ago