Yes I have a question, Raising my hand like a good student. :) I was lead to your video from a Steve Morse video. He's also long been a proponent of alt picking. The question I have is about repeating licks that have odd note numbers...do you effectively learn to pick the same note sequence two ways or do you start the duplicate passage with a double down or up, regardless of how long or complex the passage might be? It really is a matter of "how committed to the rule are you?"
While I understand the concept of being able to play faster with alternate picking, I think that referring to economy picking as a "bad habit" is probably a mistake.
Seems you didn't understand how to correctly use economy picking.
Instead of "Down-Up-Down-Down-Up..." it actually should be executed like:
"Down-Up-Downsweepd-Up..." which is - as the name states - more economic, since you're using FEWER motions than you would while incorporating strict alternate picking.
Example: 3NPS-Pattern from C to C (8-10-12 + 8-10-12 + 9-10):
@leckal Exactly...he basically repicks and doesnt sweep when changing strings.You cant compare 2 things if you know to execute only one correctly.The real power of course is to learn both and use them without thinking.No technique is better than the other.The number of insane economy and alternate pickers proves it.Economy in particular if learned correctly is effortless.
Interesting way to look at it...I always assumed that the 'shortest distance between 2 points would be a straight line' sort of idea, but when you put it into the context of right hand motion and continuous picking rhythm/pattern it makes perfect sense. I picked up the economy picking through self-taught laziness but I am practicing true alternate to be able to integrate both as in my view everything is relative to the length of passage and strings touched/pattern etc., no?
Hi i have problem with alternate (d=down u=up \=string down /=string up)
for ex. 1st and 2nd string 4 notes on each forward and backward (1234 \ 1234,321 / 4321)
problem is when i start with up it goes like this u d u d and than you have to jump over the second string and pick it up ( u d u d jump over u d u d u d u jump d..) is there a trick or i just have to learn to jump over? i hope you understand what i mean :-D
@2goXD no trick, just jump over. you have to get used to doing upstrokes to be a good alternate picker. There's a Paul Gilbert alternate picking exercise that I started on about a year or 2 ago. it really helped.
why does everyone judge speed based on the speed of the picking hand. you can economy pick and throw in some legato and still go as fast as you want with the left hand. i don't necessarily need the picking hand to go fast. who cares how fast you are if you sound like shit with no taste. anybody who can jack off can burn with the picking hand. but the left hand takes some skill and thats why yngwie malmsteen is still the fastest guitar player not these idiots who play fast on 2 strings.
I think its the stupidest thing in the world to choose only 1 technique because you want to be faster... And anyone that teaches that is seriously hurting there students... You choose a technique because of the way it sounds not because it makes you go faster... Also limiting your self to only 1 technique is almost as bad.
doc, why dont you encourage people to try their best to play music ? its mega tedious the amount of emphasis players put on playing fast. id rather hear david gilmour bend one note as opposed to some machinelike shredder bore me to hell and back playing nothing but up and down scales and neverending arpeggios, its like faster equals better...........but not to me. give me music first every time.
@windyarse41 Faster doesnt equal better...but slow doesnt either you know....take a listen to some classical music not just blues and you ll dismiss the myths about fast or slow.Classical is full of scales and arpegio playing and is world renowened and respected...but give a little distortion and a little bit of..hair..and you are suddenly a shredder.Plus the tension and build up you achieve with fast lines..you cant achieve with anything else.The pentatonic box isnt the whole universe you know.
Mate in the example you gave about economy when you crossed the strings you repicked and didnt sweep.Thats why you break the motion its not E.P fault.Economy is alternate with sweeps when changing strings..it has less pick strokes than strict alterate picking so its faster(actually economy is so fluid its almost legato-like).The equal amount of scary fast economy pickers proves you wrong by itself actually.Anyone who wants to be the absolute fastest though must train both equally.
hy ? because it's more difficult and that's how you get better not by playing thiI agree with you . Sweep picking and economy picking has unfortunately become the be all end all train of thought in today's guitar world. They are only two of the MANY techniques available to the modern player. But any teacher who is truly worth their salt will first and foremost work on alt picking.,wngs to make them easier or look for shortcuts. there are things u can do with alt picking u can't do other ways
im no way implying that i can play anywhere near as fast as you, and i respect your speed, but honestly telling people to push themselves to the point of muscle pain is just irresponsible. Pick technique should be smooth and from the wrist. Also you aren't economy picking properly as ajpagl said :)
Thanks for explaining the difference between the two. I'm nowhere near the level of being able to play this but now I know to focus on alternate picking when I start learning and practicing my scales! I want to learn the right way and your vids are teaching me \m/.
Great lesson! And great explanations. But the same problems you discuss with economy picking you have in a similar manner; in that you change between "outside" and "inside" picking. And the switch between inside and outside picking is just as much of a change (for me atleast) as breaking that "circle" of alternate.
Fun fact: the person who most suppose coined the term "sweep picking" (Frank Gambale) was actually referring to economy picking. Check out his economy picking for some crazy speed.
What is appealing about alternate is the "powerful" sound of attack (as John Petrucci calls it). Economy can be just as fast but it does change the sound of the attack, or breaks that circle. You're still picking all the same notes and either can get extremely fast. Economy and hybrid just allow you to move less.
Actually I do have a comment!! About the wheel analogy.. you're right you don't have to stop the motion.. Actually it's wrong to stop it.. using "Directional picking"..it goes like this.. C major let's say..low E string.. you hit C with down.. D with up.. E & F down in one sweeping motion..G up.. A & B down (sweep on the A & D strings).. and so on.. this way you cut 1/3 of the motion which will make your hand float on the strings really EASY!!
Alternate picking is great for playing chromatic scales up and down like a typewriter. If you ever want to play intervals, arpeggios, or keyboard and horn type lines, be prepared to use hybrid picking, economy picking, sweep picking...whatever is available to you.
@kennedy3212124 Hey man, I'm really sorry but I don't have tabs for that, and I really don't know what I played. I just ran up and down parts of scales. I did find a picture of the modes/scales I use. I'll send you that.
I was taught that economy picking is where you start with an upstroke. I was taught lies! In any case I use weird vibrations to gain picking speed and they let me use economy picking without losing any speed. I guess I should work on alternate picking though, it sounds smoother.
@XneoclassicaloverX There's really no secret; it's just years and years of practice. Use a metronome, gradually increase the speed, and don't be afraid to push yourself to the point of some muscle pain. A little pain is good for you!
@doctorhotlicks There is no superior picking tech mate.There are amazing alternate as well as economy pickers.Whatever you choose the key is to learn it..perfectly..and not be a purist.Its all about efficiency.If you are asked to do ridiculously large intervalic leaps for example and you are using only alternate you ll jumping up and down the strings like crazy.if you incorporate the hybrid fingers you ll be faster and more precise.Check out marshall harrison to see a thing about efficiency.
Why not hop between the two? If you need to play really fast passages, just alternate pick them. When you want a smoother sound for string skipping, just economy pick. Why does it always have to be one or the other?
@TheBothanist Economy picking won't make the notes sound any smoother like playing legato would; a picked note sounds like a picked note. As far as string skipping, are you referring to jumping from the E string to the D string and skipping the A string? Or do you mean picking one note on the A string and the next note on the D string? If you mean the latter I would consider that a sweep pick if you were just playing 2 notes, albeit a very small sweep.
Not convinced one way or another. This premium placed on playing faster and preoccupation w/which technique gets you there is wrong-headed. Fast articulation must be subordinate to making a clear musical statement. Holding a record for playing Bumblebee at 600bpm is a fine practice achievement, but think of the work put into Rimsky-Korsakov composing it, Rafael Mendez playing it on trumpet, or Randy Waldman using it for bebop. Let's remember that a musician's trade is music, not fast notes.
For every fast economy picker, there are 10 alternate pickers that can play even faster. Like I said earlier, it's all in the execution (and the execution of economy picking has a MUCH higher degree of difficulty than alternate). Alternate picking is a "simpler" approach to playing fast, and therefore, easier to master and reach faster speeds. And you don't have to take my word for it. Take doctorhotlicks'! (Officially the FASTEST guitar player in the world)
1st, the problem w/the idea being advanced in this vid is advocating some circular motion. It takes longer to circle around than to travel linearly in the direction of where we wanna be. 2nd, the econ demonstration is faulty. A properly executed "directional" string change involves the use of a single stroke to sound one string and then the next, this stroke being one controlled motion, not 2 separate downstrokes/upstrokes as shown here. So there is no muscular stoppage except where alt occurs.
My experience is really the contrary. Econ gave me the facility to play fast faster. Alt was more challenging for me & I found that it was rooted in extraneous motions imposed by the inside/outside picking phenomenon. Inside not only travels in the opposite direction, but has to travel such that u avoid the string just picked. Outside not only has to avoid sounding the string by the "directional" motion, but must move past that string in order to sound it by a "return" stroke.
I don't advocate that one stick to one picking style or the other, but rather that all manner of articulation techniques be in one's bag for the most fluent, unimpeded musical expression. I just felt compelled to have to counter the false notions advanced here that some "circular motion" yields faster travel than a directional linear one, or that the muscle's "motor" must stop where a faulty demonstration is its cause & proper econ motion as an even more efficient motor.
What's true of economy is that in order to strictly play in this style one must rely upon groupings of an odd number of notes per string while moving strings in one direction & then an even number while changing direction. It forces lines that one plays to conform to this pattern, which is no more a bad thing than confining our melodic ideas to one specific tonality given a set of changes. There are sounds that are best played via econ, & vice versa. I practice both so that I can play anything.
@yoheff988 Are you choked up on the pick pretty far? In other words, do you have very little pick showing, or do you have a lot sticking out from your hand? Having a very small amount of the pick sticking out from your hand will ensure more accuracy and control when you play. If alternate picking is new to you then I suggest just stay patient with yourself, and focus on proper rhythm and accuracy before trying to push it on speed. If you just stick with it you will eventually get it :)
@mikeb929man1 If you're just looking for pure speed I'd say alternate picking because you have to use less muscle in your left hand to make the notes come out.
You needn't presume you can alternate pick faster than play legato. Alternate, economy, finger picking, banjo rolls or bowing, articulating a note by any of these means is only as fast as the hand can finger the note on the fingerboard. Legato, defined as the sounding of tones by fingering the string on positions along the fingerboard, this action by itself producing sufficient vibrations to sound the tones, is the basis for sounding said tones by using any variant approach to vibrating strings.
...The idea of economy picking is good on paper. Ideally, it's the most efficient way of playing. I've just never seen anybody execute it well enough to see the advantages of it over alternate picking.
@KingTabor Yes, there are a few exceptions, notably Frank Gambale and Joe Stump. They have seemingly mastered the economy picking technique. But most of the "fastest" guitarist in the world primarily use alternate picking techniques: Rusty Cooley, Michael Angelo Batio, John McLaughlin, etc. My point is, it's easier to "master" alternate picking than economy picking. Masters of alternate picking have consistently been able to reach faster speeds than masters of economy.
In theory, if perfectly executed, economy picking would be the most ideal/fastest way to play. Key phrase = "PERFECTLY EXECUTED". The degree of difficulty for the EXECUTION of the economy picking technique far surpasses that of alternate picking. I've yet to see a master of economy picking whose speed surpasses that of a master of an alternate picker (ie. doctorhotlicks lol). What I'm trying to say is that it's much easier to execute alternate picking at faster speeds than economy picking...
Thinking about the circular motion idea, it's not lost w/economy. Circular motion continues even crossing strings. Whether using alternate or economy the circles end up drawing a spring. I reject the notion however that circular motions correspond to being faster. Traveling at smaller linear motions is faster than circling around, & economy has its own motor. The challenge I find w/alternate is again at the point of alternation that is inside picking, which brings you away from the next string.
The apologetics for alternate isn't as thoroughly examined. Alternate isn't as straight fwd as the vid suggests. There's a point w/strict alternate at which the pick travels away from & against the direction of where the pick needs to be to pick the next string. At this occurence the hand needs to be trained to pick the next string w/out hitting the last one picked. This requirement creates its own extraneous motion that "breaks" the flow in one sense. Either Alt or econ needs work to play fast.
@TheStratomasta My pickups? Honestly, I don't know. When I told the Brent Monson of Monson guitars what I wanted I basically just said I want it to play fast and mean. I hardly know anything about hardware.
I will say, however, that I prefer the tone of Alternate picking, when it is the most comfortable option. If it's not, I use hybrid picking and economy picking as needed.
It wouldn't take long. From Zappa: the Mallet percussion unison runs from Inca roads, St.Alphonzo's Pancake Breakfast, Rachmaninoff's Piano Concertos, just about any solo by Frank Gambale, a few lines from Bumblefoot solos such as "Vomit", the opening lead break for "City Nights" by Allan Holdsworth, and about a billion other things. Certain combinations of notes are just too awkward for Alternate picking. It's not a theory, it's logic.
@EthnHayabusa I know Holdsworth and just looked up the tab for it. Obviously something like that would require some sweep picking. I think you just misunderstood me a little. Have you seen the sweep picking video I've done? I know some people refer to sweep picking as economy picking, but that's not how I learned it. I will definitely check out the other stuff you mentioned, and thank you for giving me examples.
@doctorhotlicks Maybe. It seems like you are addressing specific licks, and in that case I may agree with you depending on the lick. The video just makes it sound like you are flatly denying the validity of a technique. Sweep picking is basically Economy picking. If you get into Frank Gambale's video "Monster Licks and Speed Picking" he breaks apart the technique pretty thoroughly.
you tube .com/watch ?v=mccNXbFMNQ4&feature=related
The lick is another descent example of something that isn't alternate picking friendly.
If you can get past how condescending Gambale is about his style, and how ridiculous he looks, he has some great information. Gambale really criticizes alternate picking, and that really bugged me when I got this video (like, 12 years ago-makes me feel old.) , but I got past that by just disregarding anything that I disagreed with.
@EthnHayabusa I checked it out, and watched another video where he played (I think) the same intro slowed down in a more instructional setting. Watching him played looked like he was doing a series of sweeps; albeit difficult patterns it was still sweeping.
I guess the main point in my video I tried to make was going up and down scales one note at a time you're gonna hit top speeds alternate picking, not economy picking like I showed a closeup of. Youtube needs to allow more characters.......
@doctorhotlicks No problem. There is always a danger in broad generalizations. There are so many factors to consider. Tone, articulation, comfort, and individual preference all play a hand in what tool an individual should choose. The main problem I see from students is that they lack consistency and knowledge of what their hands are doing. Just about every student I have had who is a natural economy picker only does it in one direction, and then does some random picking pattern the ... (cont.)
(Cont.) ..other way. That is usually their problem. Once upon a time, I took it upon myself to learn a lot of Zappa ideas with alternate picking. I practiced harder on that stuff than anything I have ever done, and never got to where I wanted to be with it, at least in terms of being relaxed and consistent. Years later, I saw Dweezil easily playing all the same stuff with economy picking and realized that I was just using the wrong tool. I still use alternate for most things, but sometimes ....
... I find it impractical. For most of my choices I actually find Hybrid picking to be the most versatile of approaches, but once again it just depends on what you are trying to accomplish, and how you want it to sound. all the best!
@EthnHayabusa .... in there comments box. Anyway, when I talked about sweep picking in this video I mentioned that it's really about keeping that circular motion. Keeping that nice back and forth movement has always shown to be the most effective way to get speed whether it's a big circle (sweeping) or a small circle. Perhaps I should have been more clear in the video, but after what we've talked about I think my intent was just misunderstood.
I'm not a fan of his music, but I cannot deny that for certain ideas, his approach makes sense. My problem with him is the same problem I had with your stance- the preference of one technique over another. All the best!
@ShredST Did I once state that alternate picking will cause you to lose control? I don't lose control, and I set a new world record for fastest guitar player which I had to do by playing without any error.
@Beholdthesharktopus It's a hard habit to break. Be patient and disciplined with yourself if you really want to master the fastest way to pick. Don't let others talk you out of it either. I know there are plenty out there who swear by economy picking, but until an economy picker breaks my record I'm not changing my mind that alternate picking is the way to go for maximum speed.
No technique is better than any other. Saying Alternate picking is better than Economy Picking is similar to claiming that a hammer is better than a screwdriver. Different tools for different jobs. Economy picking has many, many advantages over Alternate picking in many situations, and vice versa. I would research the extremities of both approaches before making broad generalizations.
@EthnHayabusa (continued) If Dweezil Zappa used strict alternate picking, the Zappa plays Zappa concerts would have never happened. A lot of Frank Gambale, Gypsy Jazz, Marshall Harrison, etc. lines are virtually unplayable with strict alternate picking. Different tools for different jobs. It's also not really a question of either/or, it's absolutely possible to become fluent with both approaches.
@EthnHayabusa I never said you can't become a fluent player, or even a fast player with economy picking. If playing your absolute fastest is what you're after then you need to alternate pick. The only exception I can see is sweep picking, but that's still done in a circular motion; it's just a bigger circle. I'd be more than happy to check out some of those "lines" you deem virtually unplayable, so please, tell me where I can find them.
@doctorhotlicks Too many to name. Type Marshall Harrison, Zappa, Gambale into Youtube, transcribe their more extreme ideas, and have fun trying to alternate pick them. If all you want to do is 3 note per string Paul Gilbert/Petrucci/ licks, then alternate picking will get the job done just fine. If you want to play Oscar Peterson, Holdsworth/Coltrane type lines at more extreme tempos, then you are using the wrong tool. Try alternate picking Piano ideas from Rachmaninoff.
@EthnHayabusa I don't have the time to search a bunch of stuff and try and determine which is "more extreme". I'm more than happy to test your theory out, but if you can't even give me the name of at least one song, and what part of the song it is, then our discussion is over as far as I'm concerned.
ive been playing for 3 years and naturally developed into an economy picker and never got up to full speed. i didnt know there was even a difference, so this now i gotta retrain the way i pick......fml
I know what you're talking about, but I consider that more of a sweep picking technique. Basically, you're still doing a circular motion with the right hand, just a much larger one. So I agree with ya!
Think of the wheel This circle for alternative picking may cause unneccessary hand movement. while economy picking is one direction (raking) eliminating the distance to get over the string and return with an up pick... one difficulty with economy picking is when working with a metronome you may be thrown off beat by thisslight amount of extra time. this does make a difference but being versatile is what most musicians strive for so it is good to master both techniques
The guitar I'm playing is a custom job done by Monson Guitars. It cost me about $900, but that was with an artist discount for the work I do with the band Envinity. I think the basic normal rate is around $1200
I've been playing for almost 13 years.
I own 6 guitars right now. 7 if you count the busted B.C. Rich that's just laying around.
Yes, I do like guitar a lot. Mostly just music, but guitar has been my main tool in creating music.
marshall harrison and frank gambale do pretty well
llwayneio 1 week ago
Yes I have a question, Raising my hand like a good student. :) I was lead to your video from a Steve Morse video. He's also long been a proponent of alt picking. The question I have is about repeating licks that have odd note numbers...do you effectively learn to pick the same note sequence two ways or do you start the duplicate passage with a double down or up, regardless of how long or complex the passage might be? It really is a matter of "how committed to the rule are you?"
Wyldwulf 1 week ago
Check out video "Economy Picking up to 280bpm" on youtube...that's pretty darn fast.
krelbar 2 weeks ago
While I understand the concept of being able to play faster with alternate picking, I think that referring to economy picking as a "bad habit" is probably a mistake.
krelbar 2 weeks ago
Seems you didn't understand how to correctly use economy picking.
Instead of "Down-Up-Down-Down-Up..." it actually should be executed like:
"Down-Up-Downsweepd-Up..." which is - as the name states - more economic, since you're using FEWER motions than you would while incorporating strict alternate picking.
Example: 3NPS-Pattern from C to C (8-10-12 + 8-10-12 + 9-10):
Alternate Picking: D-U-D-U-D-U-D-U => 8 motions
Economy Picking: D-U-Dsweep-U-Dsweep-U => 6 Motions (1 Sweep-Motion == 2 Notes)
leckal 2 weeks ago
@leckal Exactly...he basically repicks and doesnt sweep when changing strings.You cant compare 2 things if you know to execute only one correctly.The real power of course is to learn both and use them without thinking.No technique is better than the other.The number of insane economy and alternate pickers proves it.Economy in particular if learned correctly is effortless.
Dreamdancer11 5 days ago
@Dreamdancer11 wise words :)
leckal 5 days ago
What about when hammer ons and pull offs are involved?
COOLBIAN57 1 month ago
i learn alot from this vid~!!!
axiow 1 month ago
2:27 krrrrrrg!
ralph4lmighty 1 month ago
Comment removed
ralph4lmighty 1 month ago
Interesting way to look at it...I always assumed that the 'shortest distance between 2 points would be a straight line' sort of idea, but when you put it into the context of right hand motion and continuous picking rhythm/pattern it makes perfect sense. I picked up the economy picking through self-taught laziness but I am practicing true alternate to be able to integrate both as in my view everything is relative to the length of passage and strings touched/pattern etc., no?
minkorrh 1 month ago
Hi i have problem with alternate (d=down u=up \=string down /=string up)
for ex. 1st and 2nd string 4 notes on each forward and backward (1234 \ 1234,321 / 4321)
problem is when i start with up it goes like this u d u d and than you have to jump over the second string and pick it up ( u d u d jump over u d u d u d u jump d..) is there a trick or i just have to learn to jump over? i hope you understand what i mean :-D
2goXD 1 month ago
@2goXD no trick, just jump over. you have to get used to doing upstrokes to be a good alternate picker. There's a Paul Gilbert alternate picking exercise that I started on about a year or 2 ago. it really helped.
metallica5252 1 month ago
Wow ! TQ Sir .u r right .
GOHBOYZ 2 months ago
Is that Tom Hess Vid About building speed BS or no BS? Just curious
redhotkido 2 months ago
hey i miss u sir hahah your reoly is so late hahah... i mean the tab in 36 to 43... seconds hehe
kennedy3212124 3 months ago
I mean, it really fits to play the blues scale, two notes per string with alternate,
no streched 3 note shapes, but...
cant do it fast, have to reshape it and use note repeat or go somehow three times per the two notes to go through the pentatonic economy
XcortX1 3 months ago
Could you really get faster playing two notes per string?
I am really having a hard time even to aproximate the speed of economy picking over some 2,4 note lines over two strings next to each other.
XcortX1 3 months ago
hey, how do you get that awesome, metal sound whenever you play, i have an amp so that shouldnt be a problem by the way luv the vids
Johnnyboy7781 3 months ago in playlist More videos from doctorhotlicks
Don't you think that this
youtube.com/watch?v=2iM0sdbQrJg&feature=related
is much mre convincing???
TheSweetsOfSin 3 months ago
why does everyone judge speed based on the speed of the picking hand. you can economy pick and throw in some legato and still go as fast as you want with the left hand. i don't necessarily need the picking hand to go fast. who cares how fast you are if you sound like shit with no taste. anybody who can jack off can burn with the picking hand. but the left hand takes some skill and thats why yngwie malmsteen is still the fastest guitar player not these idiots who play fast on 2 strings.
bigtravsboxing79 3 months ago
I think its the stupidest thing in the world to choose only 1 technique because you want to be faster... And anyone that teaches that is seriously hurting there students... You choose a technique because of the way it sounds not because it makes you go faster... Also limiting your self to only 1 technique is almost as bad.
element1988 3 months ago
Lool way to do your research man, good job. Not..
TheWilderMusic 3 months ago
doc, why dont you encourage people to try their best to play music ? its mega tedious the amount of emphasis players put on playing fast. id rather hear david gilmour bend one note as opposed to some machinelike shredder bore me to hell and back playing nothing but up and down scales and neverending arpeggios, its like faster equals better...........but not to me. give me music first every time.
windyarse41 4 months ago
@windyarse41 Faster doesnt equal better...but slow doesnt either you know....take a listen to some classical music not just blues and you ll dismiss the myths about fast or slow.Classical is full of scales and arpegio playing and is world renowened and respected...but give a little distortion and a little bit of..hair..and you are suddenly a shredder.Plus the tension and build up you achieve with fast lines..you cant achieve with anything else.The pentatonic box isnt the whole universe you know.
Dreamdancer11 3 months ago
Mate in the example you gave about economy when you crossed the strings you repicked and didnt sweep.Thats why you break the motion its not E.P fault.Economy is alternate with sweeps when changing strings..it has less pick strokes than strict alterate picking so its faster(actually economy is so fluid its almost legato-like).The equal amount of scary fast economy pickers proves you wrong by itself actually.Anyone who wants to be the absolute fastest though must train both equally.
Dreamdancer11 4 months ago
hy ? because it's more difficult and that's how you get better not by playing thiI agree with you . Sweep picking and economy picking has unfortunately become the be all end all train of thought in today's guitar world. They are only two of the MANY techniques available to the modern player. But any teacher who is truly worth their salt will first and foremost work on alt picking.,wngs to make them easier or look for shortcuts. there are things u can do with alt picking u can't do other ways
mjguitars 4 months ago
im no way implying that i can play anywhere near as fast as you, and i respect your speed, but honestly telling people to push themselves to the point of muscle pain is just irresponsible. Pick technique should be smooth and from the wrist. Also you aren't economy picking properly as ajpagl said :)
vincentlawrie 4 months ago
can you make a lesson focused on how you pick that super fast ?!
maybe i won't be that fast but at least i can learn from you pleaaaaseee :(
zack30ify 4 months ago
Your economy picking technique is poor ,you do a double down instead of a timed smooth sweep across the two notes .Look at Frank Gambale and Yngwie.
The best is a combination based on where the next note is on the neck.
Alternate is easier rhythmically but if done strictly it creates pointless wasted movement.
ajpeagle 5 months ago
Dude, your badass! You HEAR ME? YOUR BADASS! YOU OWN! THUMBS UP FOR YA!
wwescorpionx 5 months ago
i think i would trust you seeing how u have the world record for fastest guitarist , ur amazing man
stuartjonez 5 months ago
Thanks for explaining the difference between the two. I'm nowhere near the level of being able to play this but now I know to focus on alternate picking when I start learning and practicing my scales! I want to learn the right way and your vids are teaching me \m/.
Thanks!
GameRocker2D 5 months ago
Great lesson! And great explanations. But the same problems you discuss with economy picking you have in a similar manner; in that you change between "outside" and "inside" picking. And the switch between inside and outside picking is just as much of a change (for me atleast) as breaking that "circle" of alternate.
GuillermoSmyser 5 months ago
Fun fact: the person who most suppose coined the term "sweep picking" (Frank Gambale) was actually referring to economy picking. Check out his economy picking for some crazy speed.
What is appealing about alternate is the "powerful" sound of attack (as John Petrucci calls it). Economy can be just as fast but it does change the sound of the attack, or breaks that circle. You're still picking all the same notes and either can get extremely fast. Economy and hybrid just allow you to move less.
GuillermoSmyser 5 months ago
i like the way you explain.. its very clear :) keep rockin
NixWorx3D 5 months ago
Tom Hess taught me that!! check his website.. google it!
BlackBeThyName 5 months ago
Actually I do have a comment!! About the wheel analogy.. you're right you don't have to stop the motion.. Actually it's wrong to stop it.. using "Directional picking"..it goes like this.. C major let's say..low E string.. you hit C with down.. D with up.. E & F down in one sweeping motion..G up.. A & B down (sweep on the A & D strings).. and so on.. this way you cut 1/3 of the motion which will make your hand float on the strings really EASY!!
BlackBeThyName 5 months ago
iron maiden font ftw!
hendrixslashmay 5 months ago
Alternate picking is great for playing chromatic scales up and down like a typewriter. If you ever want to play intervals, arpeggios, or keyboard and horn type lines, be prepared to use hybrid picking, economy picking, sweep picking...whatever is available to you.
Modes9 5 months ago
sir this is my address garducekennedy@yahoo.com just add me .... then send me the modes ang scale you use ...thank you .. i wait^^
kennedy3212124 5 months ago
ah ok tnx can u tell me what scale is that and where did u learn that scale... plzz give me a tip haha tnx a lot .. YOUR THE BEST send me^^
kennedy3212124 5 months ago
@kennedy3212124 I e-mailed you them last night at the address you gave to me. Did you receive my message?
doctorhotlicks 5 months ago
Idol pllzzzz can u send me a tab 36: 00 to 43:00 plz send me plz plz tnx a lot men..
this is my email garducekennedy@yahoo.com .. tnx
kennedy3212124 5 months ago
@kennedy3212124 Hey man, I'm really sorry but I don't have tabs for that, and I really don't know what I played. I just ran up and down parts of scales. I did find a picture of the modes/scales I use. I'll send you that.
doctorhotlicks 5 months ago
@kennedy3212124 whaaaa? 43:00 ??!?!?
siaverx 3 months ago
I was taught that economy picking is where you start with an upstroke. I was taught lies! In any case I use weird vibrations to gain picking speed and they let me use economy picking without losing any speed. I guess I should work on alternate picking though, it sounds smoother.
Fluffypopcicle 6 months ago
Dude great explanation, I want to know how you play at that speed, what is your secret?
XneoclassicaloverX 6 months ago
@XneoclassicaloverX There's really no secret; it's just years and years of practice. Use a metronome, gradually increase the speed, and don't be afraid to push yourself to the point of some muscle pain. A little pain is good for you!
doctorhotlicks 6 months ago 2
@doctorhotlicks There is no superior picking tech mate.There are amazing alternate as well as economy pickers.Whatever you choose the key is to learn it..perfectly..and not be a purist.Its all about efficiency.If you are asked to do ridiculously large intervalic leaps for example and you are using only alternate you ll jumping up and down the strings like crazy.if you incorporate the hybrid fingers you ll be faster and more precise.Check out marshall harrison to see a thing about efficiency.
Dreamdancer11 5 months ago
@doctorhotlicks the more pain the better if your fingers bleed it will make them stronger in the long run
dvpkid 2 months ago
Alternate picking is the most logical technique to gain blazing speed because your picking hand learns to Maneuver like a piston.
itsthearistocrat 6 months ago
Why not hop between the two? If you need to play really fast passages, just alternate pick them. When you want a smoother sound for string skipping, just economy pick. Why does it always have to be one or the other?
TheBothanist 6 months ago
@TheBothanist Economy picking won't make the notes sound any smoother like playing legato would; a picked note sounds like a picked note. As far as string skipping, are you referring to jumping from the E string to the D string and skipping the A string? Or do you mean picking one note on the A string and the next note on the D string? If you mean the latter I would consider that a sweep pick if you were just playing 2 notes, albeit a very small sweep.
doctorhotlicks 6 months ago
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Not convinced one way or another. This premium placed on playing faster and preoccupation w/which technique gets you there is wrong-headed. Fast articulation must be subordinate to making a clear musical statement. Holding a record for playing Bumblebee at 600bpm is a fine practice achievement, but think of the work put into Rimsky-Korsakov composing it, Rafael Mendez playing it on trumpet, or Randy Waldman using it for bebop. Let's remember that a musician's trade is music, not fast notes.
khryoleoz 6 months ago
For every fast economy picker, there are 10 alternate pickers that can play even faster. Like I said earlier, it's all in the execution (and the execution of economy picking has a MUCH higher degree of difficulty than alternate). Alternate picking is a "simpler" approach to playing fast, and therefore, easier to master and reach faster speeds. And you don't have to take my word for it. Take doctorhotlicks'! (Officially the FASTEST guitar player in the world)
dann3th3manni3 6 months ago
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1st, the problem w/the idea being advanced in this vid is advocating some circular motion. It takes longer to circle around than to travel linearly in the direction of where we wanna be. 2nd, the econ demonstration is faulty. A properly executed "directional" string change involves the use of a single stroke to sound one string and then the next, this stroke being one controlled motion, not 2 separate downstrokes/upstrokes as shown here. So there is no muscular stoppage except where alt occurs.
lisahayes3 6 months ago
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My experience is really the contrary. Econ gave me the facility to play fast faster. Alt was more challenging for me & I found that it was rooted in extraneous motions imposed by the inside/outside picking phenomenon. Inside not only travels in the opposite direction, but has to travel such that u avoid the string just picked. Outside not only has to avoid sounding the string by the "directional" motion, but must move past that string in order to sound it by a "return" stroke.
lisahayes3 6 months ago
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I don't advocate that one stick to one picking style or the other, but rather that all manner of articulation techniques be in one's bag for the most fluent, unimpeded musical expression. I just felt compelled to have to counter the false notions advanced here that some "circular motion" yields faster travel than a directional linear one, or that the muscle's "motor" must stop where a faulty demonstration is its cause & proper econ motion as an even more efficient motor.
lisahayes3 6 months ago
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What's true of economy is that in order to strictly play in this style one must rely upon groupings of an odd number of notes per string while moving strings in one direction & then an even number while changing direction. It forces lines that one plays to conform to this pattern, which is no more a bad thing than confining our melodic ideas to one specific tonality given a set of changes. There are sounds that are best played via econ, & vice versa. I practice both so that I can play anything.
lisahayes3 6 months ago
@dann3th3manni3 Well said, Dan! Thank you :)
doctorhotlicks 6 months ago
If you start a sequence of 3 notes per string (on the low E),
Down up down, when you move to the A string the speed will still be there, so far so good!!!
the problem for me start When shifting to the D string
because the new 3 note run starts with a down stroke,
And when going down I sometimes hit the A string and sometimes not, it.
Any suggestions on how to work on this
yoheff988 6 months ago
@yoheff988 Are you choked up on the pick pretty far? In other words, do you have very little pick showing, or do you have a lot sticking out from your hand? Having a very small amount of the pick sticking out from your hand will ensure more accuracy and control when you play. If alternate picking is new to you then I suggest just stay patient with yourself, and focus on proper rhythm and accuracy before trying to push it on speed. If you just stick with it you will eventually get it :)
doctorhotlicks 6 months ago
@doctorhotlicks
So witch technique do you find easier, legato or alternate picking?
mikeb929man1 6 months ago
@mikeb929man1 If you're just looking for pure speed I'd say alternate picking because you have to use less muscle in your left hand to make the notes come out.
doctorhotlicks 6 months ago
Witch one is faster, legato or alternate picking?
mikeb929man1 6 months ago
@mikeb929man1 I can actually alternate pick a line of notes faster than legato, but legato sometimes just sounds way nicer/cooler.
doctorhotlicks 6 months ago
You needn't presume you can alternate pick faster than play legato. Alternate, economy, finger picking, banjo rolls or bowing, articulating a note by any of these means is only as fast as the hand can finger the note on the fingerboard. Legato, defined as the sounding of tones by fingering the string on positions along the fingerboard, this action by itself producing sufficient vibrations to sound the tones, is the basis for sounding said tones by using any variant approach to vibrating strings.
khryoleoz 6 months ago
...The idea of economy picking is good on paper. Ideally, it's the most efficient way of playing. I've just never seen anybody execute it well enough to see the advantages of it over alternate picking.
dann3th3manni3 6 months ago
@dann3th3manni3 Frank Gambale excels at this for more than 20 years
KingTabor 6 months ago
@KingTabor Yes, there are a few exceptions, notably Frank Gambale and Joe Stump. They have seemingly mastered the economy picking technique. But most of the "fastest" guitarist in the world primarily use alternate picking techniques: Rusty Cooley, Michael Angelo Batio, John McLaughlin, etc. My point is, it's easier to "master" alternate picking than economy picking. Masters of alternate picking have consistently been able to reach faster speeds than masters of economy.
dann3th3manni3 6 months ago
In theory, if perfectly executed, economy picking would be the most ideal/fastest way to play. Key phrase = "PERFECTLY EXECUTED". The degree of difficulty for the EXECUTION of the economy picking technique far surpasses that of alternate picking. I've yet to see a master of economy picking whose speed surpasses that of a master of an alternate picker (ie. doctorhotlicks lol). What I'm trying to say is that it's much easier to execute alternate picking at faster speeds than economy picking...
dann3th3manni3 6 months ago
Alternate picking ftw.
alexijunior13 6 months ago
Thinking about the circular motion idea, it's not lost w/economy. Circular motion continues even crossing strings. Whether using alternate or economy the circles end up drawing a spring. I reject the notion however that circular motions correspond to being faster. Traveling at smaller linear motions is faster than circling around, & economy has its own motor. The challenge I find w/alternate is again at the point of alternation that is inside picking, which brings you away from the next string.
lisahayes3 6 months ago
The apologetics for alternate isn't as thoroughly examined. Alternate isn't as straight fwd as the vid suggests. There's a point w/strict alternate at which the pick travels away from & against the direction of where the pick needs to be to pick the next string. At this occurence the hand needs to be trained to pick the next string w/out hitting the last one picked. This requirement creates its own extraneous motion that "breaks" the flow in one sense. Either Alt or econ needs work to play fast.
lisahayes3 6 months ago
@lisahayes3 not to mention the inside-string/outside-string thing
KingTabor 6 months ago
@TheStratomasta My pickups? Honestly, I don't know. When I told the Brent Monson of Monson guitars what I wanted I basically just said I want it to play fast and mean. I hardly know anything about hardware.
doctorhotlicks 8 months ago
I will say, however, that I prefer the tone of Alternate picking, when it is the most comfortable option. If it's not, I use hybrid picking and economy picking as needed.
EthnHayabusa 8 months ago
It wouldn't take long. From Zappa: the Mallet percussion unison runs from Inca roads, St.Alphonzo's Pancake Breakfast, Rachmaninoff's Piano Concertos, just about any solo by Frank Gambale, a few lines from Bumblefoot solos such as "Vomit", the opening lead break for "City Nights" by Allan Holdsworth, and about a billion other things. Certain combinations of notes are just too awkward for Alternate picking. It's not a theory, it's logic.
EthnHayabusa 8 months ago
@EthnHayabusa I know Holdsworth and just looked up the tab for it. Obviously something like that would require some sweep picking. I think you just misunderstood me a little. Have you seen the sweep picking video I've done? I know some people refer to sweep picking as economy picking, but that's not how I learned it. I will definitely check out the other stuff you mentioned, and thank you for giving me examples.
doctorhotlicks 8 months ago
@doctorhotlicks Maybe. It seems like you are addressing specific licks, and in that case I may agree with you depending on the lick. The video just makes it sound like you are flatly denying the validity of a technique. Sweep picking is basically Economy picking. If you get into Frank Gambale's video "Monster Licks and Speed Picking" he breaks apart the technique pretty thoroughly.
EthnHayabusa 8 months ago
you tube .com/watch ?v=mccNXbFMNQ4&feature=related
The lick is another descent example of something that isn't alternate picking friendly.
If you can get past how condescending Gambale is about his style, and how ridiculous he looks, he has some great information. Gambale really criticizes alternate picking, and that really bugged me when I got this video (like, 12 years ago-makes me feel old.) , but I got past that by just disregarding anything that I disagreed with.
EthnHayabusa 8 months ago
@EthnHayabusa ugh. "decent", not "descent". I long for an edit button.
EthnHayabusa 8 months ago
@EthnHayabusa I checked it out, and watched another video where he played (I think) the same intro slowed down in a more instructional setting. Watching him played looked like he was doing a series of sweeps; albeit difficult patterns it was still sweeping.
I guess the main point in my video I tried to make was going up and down scales one note at a time you're gonna hit top speeds alternate picking, not economy picking like I showed a closeup of. Youtube needs to allow more characters.......
doctorhotlicks 8 months ago
@doctorhotlicks No problem. There is always a danger in broad generalizations. There are so many factors to consider. Tone, articulation, comfort, and individual preference all play a hand in what tool an individual should choose. The main problem I see from students is that they lack consistency and knowledge of what their hands are doing. Just about every student I have had who is a natural economy picker only does it in one direction, and then does some random picking pattern the ... (cont.)
EthnHayabusa 8 months ago
(Cont.) ..other way. That is usually their problem. Once upon a time, I took it upon myself to learn a lot of Zappa ideas with alternate picking. I practiced harder on that stuff than anything I have ever done, and never got to where I wanted to be with it, at least in terms of being relaxed and consistent. Years later, I saw Dweezil easily playing all the same stuff with economy picking and realized that I was just using the wrong tool. I still use alternate for most things, but sometimes ....
EthnHayabusa 8 months ago
... I find it impractical. For most of my choices I actually find Hybrid picking to be the most versatile of approaches, but once again it just depends on what you are trying to accomplish, and how you want it to sound. all the best!
EthnHayabusa 8 months ago
@EthnHayabusa .... in there comments box. Anyway, when I talked about sweep picking in this video I mentioned that it's really about keeping that circular motion. Keeping that nice back and forth movement has always shown to be the most effective way to get speed whether it's a big circle (sweeping) or a small circle. Perhaps I should have been more clear in the video, but after what we've talked about I think my intent was just misunderstood.
doctorhotlicks 8 months ago
I'm not a fan of his music, but I cannot deny that for certain ideas, his approach makes sense. My problem with him is the same problem I had with your stance- the preference of one technique over another. All the best!
EthnHayabusa 8 months ago
So speed > control is what you're saying?
ShredST 8 months ago
@ShredST Did I once state that alternate picking will cause you to lose control? I don't lose control, and I set a new world record for fastest guitar player which I had to do by playing without any error.
doctorhotlicks 8 months ago
Damn, well now I gotta change my technique around. I had no idea what economy picking was.
Beholdthesharktopus 8 months ago
@Beholdthesharktopus It's a hard habit to break. Be patient and disciplined with yourself if you really want to master the fastest way to pick. Don't let others talk you out of it either. I know there are plenty out there who swear by economy picking, but until an economy picker breaks my record I'm not changing my mind that alternate picking is the way to go for maximum speed.
doctorhotlicks 8 months ago
No technique is better than any other. Saying Alternate picking is better than Economy Picking is similar to claiming that a hammer is better than a screwdriver. Different tools for different jobs. Economy picking has many, many advantages over Alternate picking in many situations, and vice versa. I would research the extremities of both approaches before making broad generalizations.
EthnHayabusa 8 months ago
@EthnHayabusa (continued) If Dweezil Zappa used strict alternate picking, the Zappa plays Zappa concerts would have never happened. A lot of Frank Gambale, Gypsy Jazz, Marshall Harrison, etc. lines are virtually unplayable with strict alternate picking. Different tools for different jobs. It's also not really a question of either/or, it's absolutely possible to become fluent with both approaches.
EthnHayabusa 8 months ago
@EthnHayabusa I never said you can't become a fluent player, or even a fast player with economy picking. If playing your absolute fastest is what you're after then you need to alternate pick. The only exception I can see is sweep picking, but that's still done in a circular motion; it's just a bigger circle. I'd be more than happy to check out some of those "lines" you deem virtually unplayable, so please, tell me where I can find them.
doctorhotlicks 8 months ago
@doctorhotlicks Too many to name. Type Marshall Harrison, Zappa, Gambale into Youtube, transcribe their more extreme ideas, and have fun trying to alternate pick them. If all you want to do is 3 note per string Paul Gilbert/Petrucci/ licks, then alternate picking will get the job done just fine. If you want to play Oscar Peterson, Holdsworth/Coltrane type lines at more extreme tempos, then you are using the wrong tool. Try alternate picking Piano ideas from Rachmaninoff.
EthnHayabusa 8 months ago
@EthnHayabusa I don't have the time to search a bunch of stuff and try and determine which is "more extreme". I'm more than happy to test your theory out, but if you can't even give me the name of at least one song, and what part of the song it is, then our discussion is over as far as I'm concerned.
doctorhotlicks 8 months ago
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EthnHayabusa 8 months ago
Your video is excellent!
Moomoo8181 9 months ago
@Moomoo8181 Thanks!!!
doctorhotlicks 9 months ago
ive been playing for 3 years and naturally developed into an economy picker and never got up to full speed. i didnt know there was even a difference, so this now i gotta retrain the way i pick......fml
chambersix6six 9 months ago
@71GA
I know what you're talking about, but I consider that more of a sweep picking technique. Basically, you're still doing a circular motion with the right hand, just a much larger one. So I agree with ya!
doctorhotlicks 10 months ago
Think of the wheel This circle for alternative picking may cause unneccessary hand movement. while economy picking is one direction (raking) eliminating the distance to get over the string and return with an up pick... one difficulty with economy picking is when working with a metronome you may be thrown off beat by thisslight amount of extra time. this does make a difference but being versatile is what most musicians strive for so it is good to master both techniques
wowuraCracker 10 months ago
hey that is a awesome looking guitar and you are really fast.
i have a few questions that i hope you can answer because i just started out about 2 months ago.
what type of guitar is that and how much did it cost?
how long have you been playing?
how many guitars do you own or have owned?
and do you like that guitar alot? like sound and all.
thanks for the video!
wowdezare 11 months ago
@wowdezare
Thank you :)
The guitar I'm playing is a custom job done by Monson Guitars. It cost me about $900, but that was with an artist discount for the work I do with the band Envinity. I think the basic normal rate is around $1200
I've been playing for almost 13 years.
I own 6 guitars right now. 7 if you count the busted B.C. Rich that's just laying around.
Yes, I do like guitar a lot. Mostly just music, but guitar has been my main tool in creating music.
doctorhotlicks 11 months ago
great tip, thanks
BaHaYSaMbaHaN 1 year ago
@BaHaYSaMbaHaN
You're welcome :)
doctorhotlicks 1 year ago
economy picking is my biggest problem
Xnothinbetter2dewX 1 year ago
I remember having this very same conversation with you a couple years back!
SilverThreadShred 1 year ago
@SilverThreadShred
Me too :) I figured it was about time I actually posted something up about it as this seems to be a common occurrence.
doctorhotlicks 1 year ago