@KeliRitchieOffical At 58 seconds, he said Christians, not some Christians. I didn't listen to the whole thing again, because once was more than enough. We differ on this. Both opinions are equally valid.
To be honest, this is really no different than the crippling Baptist condemnation I grew up with. The speaker addresses the audience, assumes they're not measuring up, finds them guilty, and executes them. What about those who really love Jesus, spend time with Him daily, and seek His guidance? Not all of us are clinging to a balance beam and not following Him. I find these kind of talks tiresome. Love Jesus. Sick of the church.
@BattenburgLace This is how I take it: as passionate and active as I think I am for Jesus, I'm simply not perfect and can always think of how I could have done such and such better. These voices, like that of Francis Chan continue to motivate me and keep me focused by giving practical examples of how God's love works in us and can change us; our minds and beyond. For me, these reminders are priceless and God-breathed. I will treasure them whether they come from church or anywhere else.
@mukeh111 The world is hard enough without having to go to church to receive further injury. I've never considered myself perfect. I do know that I'm serving God. Tired of religious talking heads assuming those listening aren't measuring up to their standards. Don't care about their standards. I've noticed there are those who have told me they don't feel like they've been to church unless they are made to feel bad about themselves. I'm not one of them.
@BattenburgLace I see your point and agree from that point of view. It's just that in church, there's usually one speaker, and acting as a messenger at the time, one would feel responsible for the listener's souls in some part and try to deliver something one believes is very important, generally. The speaker isn't trying to lie, and it's our job to extract the truth from the words, no matter what. I myself make myself feel bad as I constantly evaluate my deeds/thoughts. It keeps me...'alive'.
@BattenburgLace I am one of the people that believe the church is not the building, but the people, and the people bring the church in themselves everywhere. This does not mean I will ever stop 'going to church'. No. That's where Our brothers and sisters gather from time to time. I also agree that church could do with more innovative methods in many areas...
@BattenburgLace And I do think you are right that there are some speakers that only speak judgement. As a Christian, personally, I don't mind for myself, because I always look for the truth in anyone's judgement. But I'd be concerned for the speaker. I encourage you to talk to the speaker that speaks judgement while (obviously) lacking humility. Be concerned for them. Show compassion. Speak to them if possible...they are family.
@mukeh111 The Holy Spirit has always been faithful to convict me of wrong behavior and sin. I don't require a preacher with a prop telling imagining my failings. Charles Stanley is a pro at this (minus the prop). He'll say, "You go to church on Sunday, and live the way you want the rest of the week." He says stuff like this all the time. He doesn't know me. I'm tired more than anything.
@mukeh111 We were in the ministry for 7 years and I have every scar to prove it. I go to church now only for my children, particularly my younger child who is not a believer. Church is not a place you can generally share your troubles with people and trust they won't go any farther. You certainly can't point out sin you're struggling with. I find church to be shark-infested waters. I'd prefer to just hang out with Jesus, Hebrews 10:25 notwithstanding.
@BattenburgLace Nah if you check out international church of christ, our churches, at least where I'm at, we are pretty biblical and we do follow james 5:16, I can be perfectly open with more than a few bros, check us out on disciplestoday. org--the churches are all around the world
@BattenburgLace God Bless you , I love how you put that. You are one of the smarter ones.. most people in that situation see that and they just label ALL of religion as being like that, and that its Gods fault and blah blah blah, you have seen thats its PEOPLE who talk crap, not God. So inspiring that you have chosen the path your on and didn't lose your focus.
I shared my testimony at our local Fields of Faith testimony and posted it to YouTube- check it out here: "Lars Hanson's Fields of Faith Testimony 2011"
@gelalita808 religion is something that you do to please a deity that will then grant you passage into the afterlife. Christianity differs from religion in the fact that there is nothing any man can do to enter heaven. it is only by the sacrifice of a perfect sinless being (jesus) who took the punishment for all of mankinds sin that we can go blameless into heaven, by accepting Jesus Christ as our savior
Why live your life constantly concerned with what this supposed judge at the end of it thinks? That's just as limiting as the straddling. Risk taking is nice and everything but some people do just fine playing it safe and it works for them.
Check out this awesome video about a high school student following Francis Chan's preaching: Type in "Makenzie Greeley is Weird - Because Normal Isn't Working" to your Youtube search... SO ENCOURAGING!!
Holy shit. I come from a family of atheists, and we all live to 80+. My 90 year old grandmother still rolls her own smokes and finishes every night with a couple shots of cheap gin.
I love God, because he is Spiritually true, I dont have a religion because religion is rules, standards and restriction, God is the living water which means he is life, and Spirit. Through my whole experience with God, I have tested and realize that he is life and religion is why Jesus Christ was killed. Through religion and being religious is what kills the world. Jesus Christ came to show me that he is the way, the truth to life. He is life. I love the Lord, and pray that all will realize .
"In view of the fact that God limited the intelligence of man,
it seems unfair that he did not also limit his stupidity." - Dean Acheson to Arthur Schlesinger. Anyone? I made the first move, God is and Jesus loves
@DinoSwede Thanks for your comments. Have you read anything from Ravi Zacharias or Oz Guiness? These guys make a good case for a belief in God. I wish you well in your search for God.
@DinoSwede Dino, If there was a God and He was a God who loved you very much and He wanted you to know Him too... would you want Him to reveal Himself to you?
@DinoSwede Proof? I think God has a great sense of humor. He puts all around you the most amazing unexplained stuff...in particular everything in nature...and you want proof of creation. Our finite brains will never be able to figure out this whole creator of the universe thing. What is good is grappling with this subject the remainder of your life. Grapple away...it's a good thing...
@DinoSwede You say there is no proof of God, but how do you explain your very existence? It takes just as much faith to believe we started from primordial goo and evolved to be human (an unproven theory) as it does to believe we were created by a loving God. Read "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel. He was once where you are and he set out to disprove God. At the end of his quest, he found God.
@cwyman66 But I don't believe we came from primordial goo either. I just simply don't know. I don't think that existence is proof of God, there could be infinite possibilities for all we know. I feel that religion is just necessary in society to fill in those unanswerable questions humans have, like the meaning of life and how we got here. I don't believe in God, I believe in myself. I think believing in yourself is better than devoting your life to loving and fearing an omnipotent figure.
@DinoSwede We could figure out all the knowledge this universe could yield, we could understand every theological concept correctly, we could understand the very purpose of life itself, but unless you act upon it, there is no faith in it. Faith is not mere belief, it's acting upon what you believe. That is what Chan is getting at. Everyone has a faith, the world reflects the faith of me me me. Those who truly follow what Christ commands reflect: no, it's not all about me. That's the difference.
@cwyman66 But I don't believe we came from primordial goo either. I just simply don't know. I don't think that existence is proof of God, there could be infinite possibilities for all we know. I feel that religion is just necessary in society to fill in those unanswerable questions humans have, like the meaning of life and how we got here. I don't believe in God, I believe in myself. I think believing in yourself is better than devoting your life to loving and fearing an omnipotent figure.
@DinoSwede I read your comment and I could relate in some ways. I grew up in a Christian society and so it was natural to accept Jesus. But then when I got older, I rebelled and I demanded evidence/proof before I could even think to give my life to Christ. It was an interesting journey. I am now completely convinced that God exists, that Jesus is God and that He has left evidence of Himself. I would love to share some of these thoughts with you if you are open to discussion.
@DinoSwede If you are serious about finding out if He exists or not....if you search for Him with all your heart - YOU WILL FIND HIM.....
go search this video "The Fathers Love Letter". The sincere, unfiltered, genuine yearning an tenderness that you will experience in your soul before your fleshly cynicism and doubt take over...its real my friend, He is more real than the screen you are reading this text from, you just cant see him, that's why its called FAITH
@DinoSwede I almost never comment on anything on Youtube and I dont mean to offend you by this but religion by itself is worthless, it is a manmade institution that has no eternal value, and secondly there is proof in the existence of God... have you ever considered the all of the prophecies that have come true in the bible? several people are to blinded to see that Jesus made the way for us and all you have you to do is ask for salvation with a believing heart that is ready to accept God's love
Hi, I read your comment. I found them interesting. Just wondered, you said you didn't want to dedicate your life to something with no proof. Yet you believe in life after death based on good and bad works. I was wondering if you had proof for that? Not trying to be argumentative, just interested in your views.
@DinoSwede Sorry to say,but God is real.In addition, you see his glory almost everyday.Think of it as this: there is a building, now what built the building?A builder yes?Now who made the sky, the Earth, the Galaxy? Well certainly not man nor did it create itself there has to be a cause and effect yes? Something must had cause things to happen and we can keep going what cause"things"to happen.UNTIL there is no more then can we actually say there is but one POWERFUL being who can do all this, GOD
@DinoSwede believing in life after death dependent upon whether you're good or bad is a blind faith.. its not based on anything but personal feelings..
@DinoSwede you should read Lee Strobel's case book series, case for Christ and case for a creator, there is extremely good proof, you just have to look.
@DinoSwede the proof is everywhere the bible is full of ironic prophecys that were fortold thousands of years ago that is enough for me id rather die beliving in something greater than myself and if there be no god thin i dont want any part of this world.
Francis you are in dangerous waters, with lots of American Christian sharks. Good on you, youve read the bible, and have decided to stand whilst others grumble, indulge themselves and live contrary lives to the life explained in the book.
Good analogy but the slap in the face to home schoolers kind of stings. We were pioneers in home schooling in the early 1980's and there was definitely nothing safe or easy about it. Schools officials were tolerant, even helpful at times, but persecution came from the most unlikely source, fellow church members.
Most people are so used to the bull that when someone real comes along they don't know what to do...Francis Chan is living out the truth that he speaks about.
If we are are free of sin, shouldn't we want other to experience the joy of being a child of God? That requires us being open to let God use us as an example to others. We are to live our neighbor as ourselves, and by trying to only protect ourselves, we aren't really showing love
the problem with folks like Chan, Mark Driscoll and others is they're still living in an Old Testament mentality in which it's still all about appeasing God, and that God is distant and doesn't live inside us. he may give salvation lip service, but if we are free from sin why can't choose to do what we want?
plus, Chan still seems to abide by Asian principles, which is very pragmatic and heartless; it's all about keeping your mouth shut and performing. i know this cuz I'm Asian.
@makeitrain47 James says that faith without deeds is dead. If we don't perform or act on our beliefs, should we expect people to believe our words? I'm Asian too but that doesn't mean anything to God, and I'm sure it won't mean a thing to our salvation.
@makeitrain47 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? romans 6:1-2
@golfguy2117 as much as you may think it's hip to say you're a christian but not claim to be religious. they're not exclusive. christianity is a religion. sorry.
@codyjohnle as cute as you may think it is to say Christianity is a religion, the term Christianity used by true Christians refers to a faith not a religion
@codyjohnle The litteral translatin for the word "Christian" is "like Christ" So anyone who lives their life in the same way as Christ(or as close as possible) or who accepts christ into their lives, is a christian. It is not a religious belief, it is a personal relationship with Christ and with God. Last time I checked, the is a massive difference between a religious relationship and a personal relationship.
@saskatoonbaby It's funny that many people equate Christianity with religion when Jesus never came to establish a religion. It is also interesting that the church in America looks almost nothing like the Church that we read about in the Bible. What has happened? If this interests you, you may want to check out this book: Steeple Envy - Losing My Religion and Rediscovering Jesus. It's very insightful.
Just love how Francis Chan explains the bible in simple to understand terms. I can't stop uploading Francis Chan videos. They have such a clear message that everyone should hear
Mr. Chan is the epitome of arrogance. He purports to know what the nature of the judgement will be. Where is the humility in his message? It doesn't exist. He stands at the pulpit selling his own worldview. I'd rather see the Sham-Wow guy.
The fear factor is all over scripture. Chan is not talking about a God who's only concern is performance. He's talking about the God of molecular structures where the smallest details change everything. Chan is talking about God's word. The Bible doesn't mince words about God's judgement. It's all there. We don't like it because it sounds mean to us. His grace will cover us because of Christ, thru FAITH. Faith IS risk. It is IMPOSSIBLE to please God without it. He's talking about faith
The fear factor is all over scripture. Chan is not talking about a God who's only concern is performance. He's talking about the God of molecular structures where the smallest details change everything. Chan is talking about God's word. The Bible doesn't mince words about God's judgement. It's all there. We don't like it because it sounds mean to us. His grace will cover us because of Christ, thru FAITH. Faith IS risk. It is IMPOSSIBLE to please God without it. He's talking about faith.
If people realized how incredible God's grace and love is, they will be able to love people to the extreme because they've experienced it themselves. Love is a far greater motivator than fear.
He does have a point that people are afraid to take risks and fail, but it's not necessarily because they're complacent.
Like Chan believes, it's because they believe God is this judgmental prick who's only concerned about their performance, and if they fail, He's going to kick them when they're down instead of lovingly encouraging them to try again.
The problem is Chan, like many Christians, assume God is just sitting up there in heaven keeping score of how well we live the Christian life.
God is living in us and wants relationship with us. Like Jesus said, we can try and please God by doing amazing things, even stuff like casting out demons or healing the sick, but God is more concerned about having an intimate relationship with us.
I love this example! My teacher used this in Sunday school and I had to come home and show my mom! I like the way he uses the balance beam as an example that we should want to do crazy things for God and serve Him to our upmost ability till He takes us off this earth. It really encouraged me!
@nzo6969 Be careful calling yourself a Christian when you attack a fellow Believe like this! I do not have a problem with fellow Christians disagreeing but you have taken it to a low that is repulsive!
@golfguy2117 sorry that was my older brother that wrote that from my account.
i dont believe in attacking other christians. sure, i disagree with what Francis is talking about because at my church the people and i are nothing like that. so i appologize for my brothers ignorant way of thinking on this matter. everyone has a right to their own opinion and can disagree with them but we shouldnt bash one another for the sake of "im right, your wrong!" so i appologize for the comment posted.
@golfguy2117 Jesus Himself said: "Take the thousand and give it to the one who risked the most. And get rid of this "play-it-safe" who won't go out on a limb. Throw him out into utter darkness." Matt. 25: 28-30 (AMP).
@nzo6969@golfguy2117 wow...I can't believe how evil you are...This man is incredible i would give my right arm to have his faith and security in the Lord and you just bash him like this??? what is WRONG with you??!!! He obviously has his life together unlike you, you get your satisfaction by sitting at your computer all day and tearing other people down to make your loser self feel better. Do you really think when you get to heaven God's going to say "Oh thank you so much for tearing everyone
@classicclowns You're so holy. I want to be just like you.
We should all desire to be like Frances Chan: an arrogant douche bag who criticizes the way people choose to live their life out of a hidden insecurity that he can't do enough to please God.
And if you're thinking I don't know what I'm talking about, FYI I used to be like Chan. Not as famous, but just as driven.
down in your path!" You sir REALLY need to examine your relationship with God if you feel like you're glorifying him by being so evil. Who do you think you are? you are being horrible but I will pray for you that you truely see what Jesus's love and promise really is.
REALY?! Are you Iliterate that you cant read my last comment i posted our your just quick to draw to conclusions?! You just have to click on "This comment recieved too many negative votes" and you just have to bash me instead of reading my last comment?
That was my "OLDER BROTHER" who posted that stupid comment from my account!
Your just another troll on youtube jumping to conclusions! ALL OF YOU,STOP SENDING ME COMMENTS ABOUT WHAT MY BROTHER POSTED ALRIGHT! THANK YOU!
@NaturalMiracleMan Yes Christians are hypocritical and cowardly but Christ was not. Please do not look at Christians as the perfect example look at Christ as the perfect example. Read the book of Matthew or John to see who Christ really is!
@golfguy2117 Don't worry. I don't judge the truth of the Bible solely on the behavior of some Christians. I've read Matthew, John, and the rest of the Bible, and I do not find it to be true. And with all due respect, I do not consider Jesus to be a "perfect example" of anything.
@NaturalMiracleMan sounds like you have been reading some typical "The Bible ain't true" literature. I have heard it before and it is a weak argument. I would like to see if you would watch the youtube clip - Voddie Baucham Why I Choose to Believe the Bible - and tell me what you think. It is broken up into several parts due to the size but give it a shot and tell me what you think.
@golfguy2117 I'm not your typical deconvert. I didn't just read or watch "The Bible ain't true" reading materials or videos and stop believing. I can think for myself, thanks. You claim that the argument I mentioned is weak, however, I have done a lot of Q&As with ministers and a couple of my old Bible professors, and that argument stood its ground just fine. A few of them tried changing the subject in order to avoid admitting the problem. I'll watch the video you suggested and respond here.
@golfguy2117 I don't have anything that I need to send you. I know my reasons well enough to represent them myself. That isn't to insult you at all for recommending a video to me. Simply, I can give you my reasons myself.
@golfguy2117 I watched the sermon, and I have seen it before. I was glad to refresh my memory, and I took notes this time.
Firstly, I will say that it wasn't convincing at all, especially since he misrepresented many objections to his claims and avoided many others. So rewatching this sermon didn't change my mind. Rather, it made me even more aware of dishonest tactics that some ministers will use when talking to their flocks.
@golfguy2117 I liked how he started by pointing out two overly used responses to the question and exposing them to Christians as being bad responses. Those are points that can be hard for me to convince Christians of, so it is nice to see him tearing those arguments apart.
@golfguy2117 However, his actual reason for accepting the Bible as true was very disappointing, unoriginal (I've heard it many times before), and suffered heavily from logical inconsistencies.
He offered his reason in two concise sentences that were based upon 2nd Peter 1:16-21.
@golfguy2117 His reason was, "I choose to believe the Bible, because it's a reliable collection of historical documents written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses. They report supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of specific prophecies and claim that their writings are divine rather than human in origin."
@golfguy2117 He then goes on to begin defending his reason.
He begins by trying to claim that it isn't circular logic for him to accept the Bible's word as reason enough, and he tries to claim that people who make such a claim are attacking the Bible instead of his reason for accepting it. This is wrong, however, since the claim of circular logic applies to his reason, not the Bible itself.
@golfguy2117 He goes on to try to claim that the books of the Bible deserve to be considered historical.
His first argument for this is that the Bible has names of people and places that other sources affirm as historical.
This argument falls flat, however, when we consider just how many other religions and works of fiction also include names of historically affirmed people and places. Examples include: Mormonism, Islam, Captain America, Spiderman, etc.
@golfguy2117 His second argument is to claim that archaeology affirms the Bible's claims as true. He claims that there are thousands of archaeological digs that are seeking information regarding the Bible's claims, and he claims that if anything had been found that went against the Bible's claims, that Christians would know about it already.
This, too, is faulty, however. Firstly, Jewish archaeologists have affirmed that the exodus never occurred and the 40-year wandering never happened.
Secondly, it doesn't matter if there are a bunch of people looking for something to be true if they don't have any evidence that what they are looking for is actually there. Only when evidence is presented can a claim be accepted as true. Also, even if we uncover a city that is named in the Bible, that doesn't suddenly make every claim the Bible makes about that city true. Only more evidence can affirm such belief.
Thirdly, just because Christians are unaware of evidence against their beliefs doesn't mean that the evidence doesn't exist. It is true of many religious groups that their leaders will suppress, demonize, and omit the mention of evidence that contradicts their beliefs inn order to keep their followers in line and to keep them believing.
@golfguy2117 His third argument for historical relevancy is to claim that the author of the book called "Luke" was a historian.
The first problem with his claim is that we do not know the identity of the author of Luke. In fact, the name was chosen long after the book was written.
The second problem is that we have no other known books from this author that allows us to affirm that he was a historian and not just an author of just another book making supernatural claims.
@golfguy2117 His fourth argument for historical relevancy is to claim that the Bible's books were written by eyewitnesses (and in the presence of other eyewitnesses).
The problem with this claim is that it has no credible basis. None of the authors of the gospels (all of whom never identify themselves in their own writings; the names were assigned much later) write in the 1st person or claim to have witnessed any of the events that they record in their writings.
@NaturalMiracleMan OK, It appears that we will never see eye to eye on this. I don't think I will change your mind and you will not change mine. I have done my own research and have made my decision and you have done the same. Nothing you have stated has been any different than what I have heard in the past. There is "support" for your view and mine. For now we will just have to agree to disagree!
@golfguy2117 Wrong. My view can be changed by valid evidence that can stand up to scrutiny. I am not close-minded. Also, you have offered nothing that supports your view. You are giving up rather quickly; I haven't even finished telling you what I thought of Baucham's sermon!
@NaturalMiracleMan OK, forgive me for jumping the gun. I think it would be easier to communicate via e-mail. I have tried to post my e-mail address in this forum before but youtube blocks it. Is there a way that you know of that I can send you my e-mail address so we can continue without having to scroll through all of this?
The books that claim to have been written by Paul are contested by modern Greek New Testament scholars. At least half of these books are either suspected of or affirmed as being forgeries. And Paul himself wasn't an eyewitness to Jesus' life. Rather, it is claimed in the book of Acts (which is supposed to have been written by the author of Luke) that Paul encountered Jesus after his death and resurrection.
As for 1st and 2nd Peter, Greek New Testament scholars have confirmed that the two books were not written by the same author and that neither author was Peter, a Hebrew fisherman.
@golfguy2117 Baucham then tried to dismantle two arguments against the historicity of the Bible.
The first argument he raises is the claim that the books of the Bible are merely translations of translations. However, this is an argument that I never use, and I don't know of any atheists who use it either.
@golfguy2117 The second argument that he raises is that nonbelievers claim that Constantine demanded that a Bible be made with 66 books that had to be edited in order to fit what they wanted at the council of Nicea.
However, Baucham is misrepresenting the real argument that atheists raise. At the council of Nicea, Constantine wanted an official collection of Christian writings to be formed, but he didn't give them a precise number of books; the number didn't matter.
The books of the Bible were chosen for their popularity and for how well each book's claims could fit together. And judging by the number of contradictions in the Bible, they didn't bother to alter the texts much at the council.
@cindybahr2 Examples include: where the disciples meet Jesus after the resurrection, which women went to see Jesus' grave and how many went, were there 1 or 2 angels or men at the tomb, when did Jesus clear the temple, who moved David to take the census, the two creation narratives in Genesis 1 and 2, the two different lineages of Joseph ("father" of Jesus), and what Jesus said before ascending into heaven.
@NaturalMiracleMan I can tell you are one of does who does not study the bible but believe
in everything the skeptic unbeliever have to offer to put down the word of God as Satan plan to tray to disprove and make believe the bible is not the word of God. first of all do not come to a conclusion just by a paragraph read the you have to read G2 to then come to what is actually saying! It is not actually a creation account as such, but a "family history"
@NaturalMiracleMan If You read G2 as a rehash of the creation accounted in G1 you are missing the boat from the start. now with the angels please read the contec againg do not base it on one paragraph read the bible to learn! there were not only one incident of women finding angels at the tomb that day, namely
because of the difference between the account of the two angels standing in or near the tomb and surprisingthe women who had already entered it and the other account where the women find
@NaturalMiracleMan one angel sitting on the right side upon entering the tomb. These differences is of two visitations into the tomb, with two different groups of women . i just tell you truth in our Lord and savior who him self proclaim the Gospel and said Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
@boriwepaa So the fact that all 4 gospels include Mary Magdelene in the groups that discover the empty tomb for the first time invalidates your claim that these were "two visitations into the tomb, with two different groups of women." You are not honestly representing the Bible's claims.
@boriwepaa Thirdly, your claim that it was "one angel sitting on the right side upon entering the tomb" is found in none of the 4 gospels.
Matthew: "an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it." (1 angel outside sitting on the stone he just rolled away)
Mark: "a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side." (1 young man sitting inside on the right side)
Luke: "suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them." (two men standing beside them)
John: "two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot." (two angels inside the tomb on Jesus' deathbed)
None of the four gospels say what you claim, and none of them agree with one another either. Once again, you are not honestly representing the Bible's claims.
@NaturalMiracleMan I pray on the name of Jesus that I represent him in the right way and he will open your eyes on what is his truth Amen.. you should really study the bible and stop with the suppose contradictions of the bible.every single book was written by a different author and for different audience. At the time they did not had the complete bible together and still the message did not change and the doctrine is the same the coming of the messiah been the son of God,
@boriwepaa I have attended a Bible college for two years, I have studied, discussed, and debated the Bible with multiple scholars of the Bible, and I have only quoted the Bible to you in order to show your dishonesty in how you represented its claims, so you have no business at all in instructing me to "really study the bible." I just showed you contradictions, and you haven't even dared to refute them, so you don't have a leg to stand on in telling me to "humble" myself.
@NaturalMiracleMan first of all as i do not know you and you do not no me, as well as i was not always a Christian but God have open my eyes. I do not have time to be explaining you the versus of the bible like you were a little kid it is up to you to believe not, it is a chose you make . Does who do not believe are the one who do not have a leg to stand on, of you tell me it is kind of stupid to believe we came from Particle of space..
@boriwepaa I haven't said anything about the origins of everything, so don't go putting words into my mouth. You are distracting from the fact that you were wrong about what the gospels say about the resurrection stories, and you are distracting from the fact that you have avoided acknowledging that I was honestly representing what the Bible says.
I haven't told you to stop believing in your religion, even though I think it's wrong. So, please, try being more polite and less preachy.
@NaturalMiracleMan it is like i said not even the atheist have different believes, some believe we came from the monkeys and even aliens. and i have not told you to stop believing in what you believe i spoke the truth and the facts are there is more evidence for the new testament then any other book in history.. like i said it is up to you believe what you will. God does not sent has to hell he loves us all it is a chose you make. I believe so i will be with him forever.
That was incredible from a philosophical point of view, even through athiest eyes like myself,
tomharding 5 days ago
@tomharding Thanks for your comments and thanks for not bashing!
golfguy2117 5 days ago
@BattenburgLace that's why he said SOME CHRISTIANs instead of being skeptical you should listen to what he said. God bless.
KeliRitchieOffical 2 weeks ago
@KeliRitchieOffical At 58 seconds, he said Christians, not some Christians. I didn't listen to the whole thing again, because once was more than enough. We differ on this. Both opinions are equally valid.
BattenburgLace 1 week ago
Such a great illustration!!
prestonhocker 3 weeks ago
Inb4 all the potheads, drunks, and whores use this video to justify their sin.
RocknForJesus 1 month ago
woo...just wow. This was so eye opening!
littlemissceilidh 1 month ago in playlist More videos from golfguy2117
To be honest, this is really no different than the crippling Baptist condemnation I grew up with. The speaker addresses the audience, assumes they're not measuring up, finds them guilty, and executes them. What about those who really love Jesus, spend time with Him daily, and seek His guidance? Not all of us are clinging to a balance beam and not following Him. I find these kind of talks tiresome. Love Jesus. Sick of the church.
BattenburgLace 1 month ago
@BattenburgLace This is how I take it: as passionate and active as I think I am for Jesus, I'm simply not perfect and can always think of how I could have done such and such better. These voices, like that of Francis Chan continue to motivate me and keep me focused by giving practical examples of how God's love works in us and can change us; our minds and beyond. For me, these reminders are priceless and God-breathed. I will treasure them whether they come from church or anywhere else.
mukeh111 1 month ago
@mukeh111 The world is hard enough without having to go to church to receive further injury. I've never considered myself perfect. I do know that I'm serving God. Tired of religious talking heads assuming those listening aren't measuring up to their standards. Don't care about their standards. I've noticed there are those who have told me they don't feel like they've been to church unless they are made to feel bad about themselves. I'm not one of them.
BattenburgLace 1 month ago
@BattenburgLace I see your point and agree from that point of view. It's just that in church, there's usually one speaker, and acting as a messenger at the time, one would feel responsible for the listener's souls in some part and try to deliver something one believes is very important, generally. The speaker isn't trying to lie, and it's our job to extract the truth from the words, no matter what. I myself make myself feel bad as I constantly evaluate my deeds/thoughts. It keeps me...'alive'.
mukeh111 1 month ago
@BattenburgLace I am one of the people that believe the church is not the building, but the people, and the people bring the church in themselves everywhere. This does not mean I will ever stop 'going to church'. No. That's where Our brothers and sisters gather from time to time. I also agree that church could do with more innovative methods in many areas...
mukeh111 1 month ago
@BattenburgLace And I do think you are right that there are some speakers that only speak judgement. As a Christian, personally, I don't mind for myself, because I always look for the truth in anyone's judgement. But I'd be concerned for the speaker. I encourage you to talk to the speaker that speaks judgement while (obviously) lacking humility. Be concerned for them. Show compassion. Speak to them if possible...they are family.
mukeh111 1 month ago
@mukeh111 The Holy Spirit has always been faithful to convict me of wrong behavior and sin. I don't require a preacher with a prop telling imagining my failings. Charles Stanley is a pro at this (minus the prop). He'll say, "You go to church on Sunday, and live the way you want the rest of the week." He says stuff like this all the time. He doesn't know me. I'm tired more than anything.
BattenburgLace 1 month ago
@mukeh111 We were in the ministry for 7 years and I have every scar to prove it. I go to church now only for my children, particularly my younger child who is not a believer. Church is not a place you can generally share your troubles with people and trust they won't go any farther. You certainly can't point out sin you're struggling with. I find church to be shark-infested waters. I'd prefer to just hang out with Jesus, Hebrews 10:25 notwithstanding.
BattenburgLace 1 month ago
@BattenburgLace Nah if you check out international church of christ, our churches, at least where I'm at, we are pretty biblical and we do follow james 5:16, I can be perfectly open with more than a few bros, check us out on disciplestoday. org--the churches are all around the world
GerWalker2 1 month ago
@GerWalker2 Thanks! I will!
BattenburgLace 1 month ago
@BattenburgLace God Bless you , I love how you put that. You are one of the smarter ones.. most people in that situation see that and they just label ALL of religion as being like that, and that its Gods fault and blah blah blah, you have seen thats its PEOPLE who talk crap, not God. So inspiring that you have chosen the path your on and didn't lose your focus.
1BassJohn 1 week ago
@1BassJohn Thanks. My problem isn't with God, but with people who speak for God, but manipulate with guilt trips.
BattenburgLace 1 week ago
I really liked this except for his comment about homeschooling. Otherwise, it was right on target!
Muziclovr1 3 months ago
I shared my testimony at our local Fields of Faith testimony and posted it to YouTube- check it out here: "Lars Hanson's Fields of Faith Testimony 2011"
thelarsychannel 3 months ago 28
@gelalita808 religion is something that you do to please a deity that will then grant you passage into the afterlife. Christianity differs from religion in the fact that there is nothing any man can do to enter heaven. it is only by the sacrifice of a perfect sinless being (jesus) who took the punishment for all of mankinds sin that we can go blameless into heaven, by accepting Jesus Christ as our savior
sk8rdude140 3 months ago
Why live your life constantly concerned with what this supposed judge at the end of it thinks? That's just as limiting as the straddling. Risk taking is nice and everything but some people do just fine playing it safe and it works for them.
Oddhermit 3 months ago
Check out this awesome video about a high school student following Francis Chan's preaching: Type in "Makenzie Greeley is Weird - Because Normal Isn't Working" to your Youtube search... SO ENCOURAGING!!
thelarsychannel2 3 months ago 27
Holy shit. I come from a family of atheists, and we all live to 80+. My 90 year old grandmother still rolls her own smokes and finishes every night with a couple shots of cheap gin.
bluenoserr 3 months ago
that Jesus Christ is not a religion. Love the Lord, email me please and I will pray and its God's work to do all. amen.
stevenispeeing 4 months ago
I love God, because he is Spiritually true, I dont have a religion because religion is rules, standards and restriction, God is the living water which means he is life, and Spirit. Through my whole experience with God, I have tested and realize that he is life and religion is why Jesus Christ was killed. Through religion and being religious is what kills the world. Jesus Christ came to show me that he is the way, the truth to life. He is life. I love the Lord, and pray that all will realize .
stevenispeeing 4 months ago 2
God is not to be feared, respected, but not feared. Thank you francis for reminding us to take risks.
abbielinpro 4 months ago
This is a great video. While I didn't like "Erasing Hell" at all- I still like Chan and his humility.
youtube.com/watch?v=yjRcO1Sm0HU
whatthehellbook 4 months ago
"In view of the fact that God limited the intelligence of man,
it seems unfair that he did not also limit his stupidity." - Dean Acheson to Arthur Schlesinger. Anyone? I made the first move, God is and Jesus loves
rwrangler07 4 months ago
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DinoSwede 5 months ago
@DinoSwede Thanks for your comments. Have you read anything from Ravi Zacharias or Oz Guiness? These guys make a good case for a belief in God. I wish you well in your search for God.
golfguy2117 5 months ago 4
@DinoSwede Dino, If there was a God and He was a God who loved you very much and He wanted you to know Him too... would you want Him to reveal Himself to you?
MrJimStillWater 5 months ago
@DinoSwede i will be praying for you on your search to find god god bless you :)
R3zD0g 4 months ago
@DinoSwede Proof? I think God has a great sense of humor. He puts all around you the most amazing unexplained stuff...in particular everything in nature...and you want proof of creation. Our finite brains will never be able to figure out this whole creator of the universe thing. What is good is grappling with this subject the remainder of your life. Grapple away...it's a good thing...
jacolburn1 4 months ago
@DinoSwede You say there is no proof of God, but how do you explain your very existence? It takes just as much faith to believe we started from primordial goo and evolved to be human (an unproven theory) as it does to believe we were created by a loving God. Read "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel. He was once where you are and he set out to disprove God. At the end of his quest, he found God.
cwyman66 4 months ago
@cwyman66 But I don't believe we came from primordial goo either. I just simply don't know. I don't think that existence is proof of God, there could be infinite possibilities for all we know. I feel that religion is just necessary in society to fill in those unanswerable questions humans have, like the meaning of life and how we got here. I don't believe in God, I believe in myself. I think believing in yourself is better than devoting your life to loving and fearing an omnipotent figure.
DinoSwede 4 months ago
@DinoSwede We could figure out all the knowledge this universe could yield, we could understand every theological concept correctly, we could understand the very purpose of life itself, but unless you act upon it, there is no faith in it. Faith is not mere belief, it's acting upon what you believe. That is what Chan is getting at. Everyone has a faith, the world reflects the faith of me me me. Those who truly follow what Christ commands reflect: no, it's not all about me. That's the difference.
Redington931 3 months ago 3
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@cwyman66 But I don't believe we came from primordial goo either. I just simply don't know. I don't think that existence is proof of God, there could be infinite possibilities for all we know. I feel that religion is just necessary in society to fill in those unanswerable questions humans have, like the meaning of life and how we got here. I don't believe in God, I believe in myself. I think believing in yourself is better than devoting your life to loving and fearing an omnipotent figure.
DinoSwede 4 months ago
@DinoSwede I read your comment and I could relate in some ways. I grew up in a Christian society and so it was natural to accept Jesus. But then when I got older, I rebelled and I demanded evidence/proof before I could even think to give my life to Christ. It was an interesting journey. I am now completely convinced that God exists, that Jesus is God and that He has left evidence of Himself. I would love to share some of these thoughts with you if you are open to discussion.
xtremeraph 4 months ago 2
@xtremeraph Sure I'd be up for open discussion.
DinoSwede 4 months ago
@DinoSwede
Better not go without insurance then because that is blind faith that you will never need surgery or have a catastrophic illness!
greeneyes64able 4 months ago
@greeneyes64able ??? Did I mention surgery or illness?
DinoSwede 4 months ago
@DinoSwede If you are serious about finding out if He exists or not....if you search for Him with all your heart - YOU WILL FIND HIM.....
go search this video "The Fathers Love Letter". The sincere, unfiltered, genuine yearning an tenderness that you will experience in your soul before your fleshly cynicism and doubt take over...its real my friend, He is more real than the screen you are reading this text from, you just cant see him, that's why its called FAITH
antiecstacy 4 months ago
@DinoSwede I almost never comment on anything on Youtube and I dont mean to offend you by this but religion by itself is worthless, it is a manmade institution that has no eternal value, and secondly there is proof in the existence of God... have you ever considered the all of the prophecies that have come true in the bible? several people are to blinded to see that Jesus made the way for us and all you have you to do is ask for salvation with a believing heart that is ready to accept God's love
777dakotahenry 3 months ago 2
@DinoSwede
Hi, I read your comment. I found them interesting. Just wondered, you said you didn't want to dedicate your life to something with no proof. Yet you believe in life after death based on good and bad works. I was wondering if you had proof for that? Not trying to be argumentative, just interested in your views.
junglehappiness 3 months ago
@DinoSwede Go read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. Hopefully it will change your mind
astrosfn 3 months ago
@DinoSwede Sorry to say,but God is real.In addition, you see his glory almost everyday.Think of it as this: there is a building, now what built the building?A builder yes?Now who made the sky, the Earth, the Galaxy? Well certainly not man nor did it create itself there has to be a cause and effect yes? Something must had cause things to happen and we can keep going what cause"things"to happen.UNTIL there is no more then can we actually say there is but one POWERFUL being who can do all this, GOD
hmoobvaj23 3 months ago
@DinoSwede believing in life after death dependent upon whether you're good or bad is a blind faith.. its not based on anything but personal feelings..
inhalejesus 3 months ago
@DinoSwede you should read Lee Strobel's case book series, case for Christ and case for a creator, there is extremely good proof, you just have to look.
TheBlackSheepcast 2 months ago
@DinoSwede the proof is everywhere the bible is full of ironic prophecys that were fortold thousands of years ago that is enough for me id rather die beliving in something greater than myself and if there be no god thin i dont want any part of this world.
xjoe1988x 2 months ago
Francis you are in dangerous waters, with lots of American Christian sharks. Good on you, youve read the bible, and have decided to stand whilst others grumble, indulge themselves and live contrary lives to the life explained in the book.
pasainchina97 5 months ago
what other names than Chan are there in china?
TheMessanjah 6 months ago
I kept waiting for a step out layout. :-(
xochipepe 6 months ago 2
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fuck helmets HALLELUJAH!!
seanzoz 6 months ago
@seanzoz Nice mature comment!
golfguy2117 6 months ago
@golfguy2117 Way to take up arms for helmets...
seanzoz 6 months ago
@saskatoonbaby the best part is that it isn't his philosophy. The better part? God loves you
12907hogan 6 months ago
okay i know this is meant to be spiritual, but he is REALLY hot <3333
lucsantos88 6 months ago
Good analogy but the slap in the face to home schoolers kind of stings. We were pioneers in home schooling in the early 1980's and there was definitely nothing safe or easy about it. Schools officials were tolerant, even helpful at times, but persecution came from the most unlikely source, fellow church members.
randydevinney 6 months ago
Most people are so used to the bull that when someone real comes along they don't know what to do...Francis Chan is living out the truth that he speaks about.
rhinadude 6 months ago
@makeitrain47
If we are are free of sin, shouldn't we want other to experience the joy of being a child of God? That requires us being open to let God use us as an example to others. We are to live our neighbor as ourselves, and by trying to only protect ourselves, we aren't really showing love
ttearin 6 months ago
the problem with folks like Chan, Mark Driscoll and others is they're still living in an Old Testament mentality in which it's still all about appeasing God, and that God is distant and doesn't live inside us. he may give salvation lip service, but if we are free from sin why can't choose to do what we want?
plus, Chan still seems to abide by Asian principles, which is very pragmatic and heartless; it's all about keeping your mouth shut and performing. i know this cuz I'm Asian.
makeitrain47 6 months ago
@makeitrain47 James says that faith without deeds is dead. If we don't perform or act on our beliefs, should we expect people to believe our words? I'm Asian too but that doesn't mean anything to God, and I'm sure it won't mean a thing to our salvation.
speedix 6 months ago
@makeitrain47 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? romans 6:1-2
dax1112 6 months ago
I'm not religious in any sense. But I totally agree with his philosophy
saskatoonbaby 6 months ago 15
@saskatoonbaby I'm not religious either but I am a Christian. What are your beliefs?
golfguy2117 6 months ago 191
@golfguy2117 Win
TheMessanjah 6 months ago
@golfguy2117 as much as you may think it's hip to say you're a christian but not claim to be religious. they're not exclusive. christianity is a religion. sorry.
codyjohnle 5 months ago
@codyjohnle as cute as you may think it is to say Christianity is a religion, the term Christianity used by true Christians refers to a faith not a religion
HeyMike7 5 months ago
@codyjohnle The litteral translatin for the word "Christian" is "like Christ" So anyone who lives their life in the same way as Christ(or as close as possible) or who accepts christ into their lives, is a christian. It is not a religious belief, it is a personal relationship with Christ and with God. Last time I checked, the is a massive difference between a religious relationship and a personal relationship.
25151206 4 months ago
@golfguy2117 This is a great video. I like Chan, he is honest and sincere. I didn't like "Erasing Hell" but I like almost everything he's done.
whatthehellbook . com
alyssafaithbaer 5 months ago
@golfguy2117 You are not making any sense. Not religious but a Christian? I think you should check the definition of religious..
gelalita808 3 months ago
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forresthopkinsa 3 months ago
@saskatoonbaby Luv this dude xD
4dojo 5 months ago
@saskatoonbaby It's funny that many people equate Christianity with religion when Jesus never came to establish a religion. It is also interesting that the church in America looks almost nothing like the Church that we read about in the Bible. What has happened? If this interests you, you may want to check out this book: Steeple Envy - Losing My Religion and Rediscovering Jesus. It's very insightful.
RethinkPublishing 2 months ago
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saskatoonbaby 6 months ago
0:16 -->
It's all part of god's plan.
700007123 6 months ago
Just love how Francis Chan explains the bible in simple to understand terms. I can't stop uploading Francis Chan videos. They have such a clear message that everyone should hear
joshuatrinity 6 months ago
The fact is...believers shouldn't attack eachother like this whether in debate or in critic.
woodsNwater30 6 months ago
I'm so glad he is standing up for what is right! He is very right, and convicting! His book crazy love is so powerful!
teachallnations1 6 months ago
ليش عايش موت احسن لك دام العايله كلها راحت جهنم وبئس المصير لول اشهالعايله!!!!
alefreetah 7 months ago
@alefreetah ayesh?
taonggrasangmaysapat 6 months ago
Mr. Chan is the epitome of arrogance. He purports to know what the nature of the judgement will be. Where is the humility in his message? It doesn't exist. He stands at the pulpit selling his own worldview. I'd rather see the Sham-Wow guy.
binqer 7 months ago
this was a related video to of montreal
nihilistichotmagic 7 months ago
AMEN!!!
music9is7me 7 months ago
The enemey was trying to get Mr Chan early...But thank God he saw him through!!!
razorpayne13 7 months ago
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The fear factor is all over scripture. Chan is not talking about a God who's only concern is performance. He's talking about the God of molecular structures where the smallest details change everything. Chan is talking about God's word. The Bible doesn't mince words about God's judgement. It's all there. We don't like it because it sounds mean to us. His grace will cover us because of Christ, thru FAITH. Faith IS risk. It is IMPOSSIBLE to please God without it. He's talking about faith
tsbjorklund 7 months ago
The fear factor is all over scripture. Chan is not talking about a God who's only concern is performance. He's talking about the God of molecular structures where the smallest details change everything. Chan is talking about God's word. The Bible doesn't mince words about God's judgement. It's all there. We don't like it because it sounds mean to us. His grace will cover us because of Christ, thru FAITH. Faith IS risk. It is IMPOSSIBLE to please God without it. He's talking about faith.
tsbjorklund 7 months ago
If people realized how incredible God's grace and love is, they will be able to love people to the extreme because they've experienced it themselves. Love is a far greater motivator than fear.
makeitrain47 7 months ago
@makeitrain47 I guess you've never read Crazy Love, maybe then you wouldn't be so judgmental of the guy.
broncoboyification 7 months ago
He does have a point that people are afraid to take risks and fail, but it's not necessarily because they're complacent.
Like Chan believes, it's because they believe God is this judgmental prick who's only concerned about their performance, and if they fail, He's going to kick them when they're down instead of lovingly encouraging them to try again.
makeitrain47 7 months ago
The problem is Chan, like many Christians, assume God is just sitting up there in heaven keeping score of how well we live the Christian life.
God is living in us and wants relationship with us. Like Jesus said, we can try and please God by doing amazing things, even stuff like casting out demons or healing the sick, but God is more concerned about having an intimate relationship with us.
makeitrain47 7 months ago
Francis is so right... We need to reevaluate ourselves as Christians and trust in God completely. God knows what He's doing (^-^)
MartGri0711 7 months ago
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Francis Chan, thank you for what you do & for challenging us to be "risk takers" for our precious Lord & Savior.
anehabeck 7 months ago
Francis Chan, thank you for what you do & for challenging us to be "risk takers" for our precious Lord & Savior.
anehabeck 7 months ago
great! I love this guy...although I was home schooled and don't exactly like the context he used it in but oh well...
He is still awesome!
allisilly92 8 months ago
I love this example! My teacher used this in Sunday school and I had to come home and show my mom! I like the way he uses the balance beam as an example that we should want to do crazy things for God and serve Him to our upmost ability till He takes us off this earth. It really encouraged me!
PinkMusicNote15 8 months ago
this is awesome!
sheywright 8 months ago
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ahh so where can i see the whole thing??
terugaita 8 months ago
Oh. My. Goodness!! Thankyou soo much for posting this!
bornagain2day 8 months ago
Nice speech
oleg4494 8 months ago
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Nice videos this you tube world just gets bigger every day! When you
have time come visit my chann
StrikeTsunami 8 months ago
SLAVA GOSPODU.
ThePredatorElder 8 months ago
What a fresh take on living this life FOR God!
cindybahr2 8 months ago
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nzo6969 8 months ago
@nzo6969 Be careful calling yourself a Christian when you attack a fellow Believe like this! I do not have a problem with fellow Christians disagreeing but you have taken it to a low that is repulsive!
golfguy2117 8 months ago 25
@golfguy2117 sorry that was my older brother that wrote that from my account.
i dont believe in attacking other christians. sure, i disagree with what Francis is talking about because at my church the people and i are nothing like that. so i appologize for my brothers ignorant way of thinking on this matter. everyone has a right to their own opinion and can disagree with them but we shouldnt bash one another for the sake of "im right, your wrong!" so i appologize for the comment posted.
nzo6969 8 months ago
@golfguy2117 Jesus Himself said: "Take the thousand and give it to the one who risked the most. And get rid of this "play-it-safe" who won't go out on a limb. Throw him out into utter darkness." Matt. 25: 28-30 (AMP).
cyoungrun1 7 months ago
@golfguy2117 Truth is convicting. Praise God you are convicted by this. Don't you wonder why you feel this is an attack.
JPribyl21 7 months ago
@golfguy2117 it depends where your heart and mind is. because i don't think he said anything outta place.
AddyIAm 7 months ago
@golfguy2117 how can you not have a problem with fellow Christians disagreeing when God clearly does have a problem with that?
shanedungey 6 months ago
@golfguy2117 when iron sharpens iron its not a cute and cuddly process its rough and painful. just like being challenged as a christian.
tylersburns 6 months ago
@nzo6969 I do not respect your comment.
Mathaholic11 8 months ago
@nzo6969 @golfguy2117 wow...I can't believe how evil you are...This man is incredible i would give my right arm to have his faith and security in the Lord and you just bash him like this??? what is WRONG with you??!!! He obviously has his life together unlike you, you get your satisfaction by sitting at your computer all day and tearing other people down to make your loser self feel better. Do you really think when you get to heaven God's going to say "Oh thank you so much for tearing everyone
classicclowns 8 months ago
@classicclowns You're so holy. I want to be just like you.
We should all desire to be like Frances Chan: an arrogant douche bag who criticizes the way people choose to live their life out of a hidden insecurity that he can't do enough to please God.
And if you're thinking I don't know what I'm talking about, FYI I used to be like Chan. Not as famous, but just as driven.
makeitrain47 7 months ago
down in your path!" You sir REALLY need to examine your relationship with God if you feel like you're glorifying him by being so evil. Who do you think you are? you are being horrible but I will pray for you that you truely see what Jesus's love and promise really is.
classicclowns 8 months ago
@classicclowns
REALY?! Are you Iliterate that you cant read my last comment i posted our your just quick to draw to conclusions?! You just have to click on "This comment recieved too many negative votes" and you just have to bash me instead of reading my last comment?
That was my "OLDER BROTHER" who posted that stupid comment from my account!
Your just another troll on youtube jumping to conclusions! ALL OF YOU,STOP SENDING ME COMMENTS ABOUT WHAT MY BROTHER POSTED ALRIGHT! THANK YOU!
nzo6969 8 months ago
@nzo6969 you should delete the comment .
XmikkimobileX 8 months ago
@XmikkimobileX
lol i didn know how bu i figured i out
thanks for helping me out with this i appreciate it
nzo6969 8 months ago 3
@nzo6969 No problem : )
XmikkimobileX 8 months ago
19 people wanna where the majority go
praXsad12 9 months ago
Even as an atheist, I like bit that he did. Christians are very often so very, very hypocritical and cowardly.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@NaturalMiracleMan Yes Christians are hypocritical and cowardly but Christ was not. Please do not look at Christians as the perfect example look at Christ as the perfect example. Read the book of Matthew or John to see who Christ really is!
golfguy2117 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 Don't worry. I don't judge the truth of the Bible solely on the behavior of some Christians. I've read Matthew, John, and the rest of the Bible, and I do not find it to be true. And with all due respect, I do not consider Jesus to be a "perfect example" of anything.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 It is also worth noting that Matthew and Mark both twist the Hebrew scriptures in order to bend them to fit Jesus.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@NaturalMiracleMan sounds like you have been reading some typical "The Bible ain't true" literature. I have heard it before and it is a weak argument. I would like to see if you would watch the youtube clip - Voddie Baucham Why I Choose to Believe the Bible - and tell me what you think. It is broken up into several parts due to the size but give it a shot and tell me what you think.
golfguy2117 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 I'm not your typical deconvert. I didn't just read or watch "The Bible ain't true" reading materials or videos and stop believing. I can think for myself, thanks. You claim that the argument I mentioned is weak, however, I have done a lot of Q&As with ministers and a couple of my old Bible professors, and that argument stood its ground just fine. A few of them tried changing the subject in order to avoid admitting the problem. I'll watch the video you suggested and respond here.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@NaturalMiracleMan Cool! Send me a link to some of the stuff you read and I will take a look as well.
golfguy2117 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 I don't have anything that I need to send you. I know my reasons well enough to represent them myself. That isn't to insult you at all for recommending a video to me. Simply, I can give you my reasons myself.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 I'm watching it now, and I will respond after I'm finished.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
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NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
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NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 I watched the sermon, and I have seen it before. I was glad to refresh my memory, and I took notes this time.
Firstly, I will say that it wasn't convincing at all, especially since he misrepresented many objections to his claims and avoided many others. So rewatching this sermon didn't change my mind. Rather, it made me even more aware of dishonest tactics that some ministers will use when talking to their flocks.
Now I will begin going through what he said.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 I liked how he started by pointing out two overly used responses to the question and exposing them to Christians as being bad responses. Those are points that can be hard for me to convince Christians of, so it is nice to see him tearing those arguments apart.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 However, his actual reason for accepting the Bible as true was very disappointing, unoriginal (I've heard it many times before), and suffered heavily from logical inconsistencies.
He offered his reason in two concise sentences that were based upon 2nd Peter 1:16-21.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 His reason was, "I choose to believe the Bible, because it's a reliable collection of historical documents written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses. They report supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of specific prophecies and claim that their writings are divine rather than human in origin."
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 He then goes on to begin defending his reason.
He begins by trying to claim that it isn't circular logic for him to accept the Bible's word as reason enough, and he tries to claim that people who make such a claim are attacking the Bible instead of his reason for accepting it. This is wrong, however, since the claim of circular logic applies to his reason, not the Bible itself.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 He goes on to try to claim that the books of the Bible deserve to be considered historical.
His first argument for this is that the Bible has names of people and places that other sources affirm as historical.
This argument falls flat, however, when we consider just how many other religions and works of fiction also include names of historically affirmed people and places. Examples include: Mormonism, Islam, Captain America, Spiderman, etc.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 His second argument is to claim that archaeology affirms the Bible's claims as true. He claims that there are thousands of archaeological digs that are seeking information regarding the Bible's claims, and he claims that if anything had been found that went against the Bible's claims, that Christians would know about it already.
This, too, is faulty, however. Firstly, Jewish archaeologists have affirmed that the exodus never occurred and the 40-year wandering never happened.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 (continuing)
Secondly, it doesn't matter if there are a bunch of people looking for something to be true if they don't have any evidence that what they are looking for is actually there. Only when evidence is presented can a claim be accepted as true. Also, even if we uncover a city that is named in the Bible, that doesn't suddenly make every claim the Bible makes about that city true. Only more evidence can affirm such belief.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 (continuing)
Thirdly, just because Christians are unaware of evidence against their beliefs doesn't mean that the evidence doesn't exist. It is true of many religious groups that their leaders will suppress, demonize, and omit the mention of evidence that contradicts their beliefs inn order to keep their followers in line and to keep them believing.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 His third argument for historical relevancy is to claim that the author of the book called "Luke" was a historian.
The first problem with his claim is that we do not know the identity of the author of Luke. In fact, the name was chosen long after the book was written.
The second problem is that we have no other known books from this author that allows us to affirm that he was a historian and not just an author of just another book making supernatural claims.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 His fourth argument for historical relevancy is to claim that the Bible's books were written by eyewitnesses (and in the presence of other eyewitnesses).
The problem with this claim is that it has no credible basis. None of the authors of the gospels (all of whom never identify themselves in their own writings; the names were assigned much later) write in the 1st person or claim to have witnessed any of the events that they record in their writings.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@NaturalMiracleMan OK, It appears that we will never see eye to eye on this. I don't think I will change your mind and you will not change mine. I have done my own research and have made my decision and you have done the same. Nothing you have stated has been any different than what I have heard in the past. There is "support" for your view and mine. For now we will just have to agree to disagree!
golfguy2117 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 Wrong. My view can be changed by valid evidence that can stand up to scrutiny. I am not close-minded. Also, you have offered nothing that supports your view. You are giving up rather quickly; I haven't even finished telling you what I thought of Baucham's sermon!
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@NaturalMiracleMan OK, forgive me for jumping the gun. I think it would be easier to communicate via e-mail. I have tried to post my e-mail address in this forum before but youtube blocks it. Is there a way that you know of that I can send you my e-mail address so we can continue without having to scroll through all of this?
golfguy2117 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 you could try by sending me a message on here.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@NaturalMiracleMan Let me try...lyounginer atsign gmail. Can you decipher that?
golfguy2117 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 I'll send you an email now. hold on. let me know if you get it
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 (continuing)
The books that claim to have been written by Paul are contested by modern Greek New Testament scholars. At least half of these books are either suspected of or affirmed as being forgeries. And Paul himself wasn't an eyewitness to Jesus' life. Rather, it is claimed in the book of Acts (which is supposed to have been written by the author of Luke) that Paul encountered Jesus after his death and resurrection.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 (continuing)
As for 1st and 2nd Peter, Greek New Testament scholars have confirmed that the two books were not written by the same author and that neither author was Peter, a Hebrew fisherman.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 Baucham then tried to dismantle two arguments against the historicity of the Bible.
The first argument he raises is the claim that the books of the Bible are merely translations of translations. However, this is an argument that I never use, and I don't know of any atheists who use it either.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 The second argument that he raises is that nonbelievers claim that Constantine demanded that a Bible be made with 66 books that had to be edited in order to fit what they wanted at the council of Nicea.
However, Baucham is misrepresenting the real argument that atheists raise. At the council of Nicea, Constantine wanted an official collection of Christian writings to be formed, but he didn't give them a precise number of books; the number didn't matter.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@golfguy2117 (continuing)
The books of the Bible were chosen for their popularity and for how well each book's claims could fit together. And judging by the number of contradictions in the Bible, they didn't bother to alter the texts much at the council.
NaturalMiracleMan 9 months ago
@NaturalMiracleMan What contradictions?
cindybahr2 8 months ago
@cindybahr2 Examples include: where the disciples meet Jesus after the resurrection, which women went to see Jesus' grave and how many went, were there 1 or 2 angels or men at the tomb, when did Jesus clear the temple, who moved David to take the census, the two creation narratives in Genesis 1 and 2, the two different lineages of Joseph ("father" of Jesus), and what Jesus said before ascending into heaven.
NaturalMiracleMan 8 months ago
@NaturalMiracleMan I can tell you are one of does who does not study the bible but believe
in everything the skeptic unbeliever have to offer to put down the word of God as Satan plan to tray to disprove and make believe the bible is not the word of God. first of all do not come to a conclusion just by a paragraph read the you have to read G2 to then come to what is actually saying! It is not actually a creation account as such, but a "family history"
of the first men in creation.
boriwepaa 8 months ago
@NaturalMiracleMan If You read G2 as a rehash of the creation accounted in G1 you are missing the boat from the start. now with the angels please read the contec againg do not base it on one paragraph read the bible to learn! there were not only one incident of women finding angels at the tomb that day, namely
because of the difference between the account of the two angels standing in or near the tomb and surprisingthe women who had already entered it and the other account where the women find
boriwepaa 8 months ago
@NaturalMiracleMan one angel sitting on the right side upon entering the tomb. These differences is of two visitations into the tomb, with two different groups of women . i just tell you truth in our Lord and savior who him self proclaim the Gospel and said Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
boriwepaa 8 months ago
@boriwepaa You do not appear to have bothered to read all four gospels' accounts of the events in question at all.
Firstly, none of the four gospels agree on who went to the tomb, but all four agree on the timing:
Matthew and Mark: 1st day of the week after Sabbath at dawn
Luke: 1st day of the week early in the morning
John 1st day of the week while still dark.
So you are first wrong about the the timing being different.
NaturalMiracleMan 8 months ago
@boriwepaa
Secondly, the four gospels have four different lists of women, but all of them include one woman in particular:
Matthew: 2 women: Mary Magdelene, and "the other Mary"
Mark: 3 women: Mary Magdelene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome
Luke: more than 4 women: Mary Magdelene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "others"
John: 1 woman: Mary Magelene
NaturalMiracleMan 8 months ago
@boriwepaa So the fact that all 4 gospels include Mary Magdelene in the groups that discover the empty tomb for the first time invalidates your claim that these were "two visitations into the tomb, with two different groups of women." You are not honestly representing the Bible's claims.
NaturalMiracleMan 8 months ago
@boriwepaa Thirdly, your claim that it was "one angel sitting on the right side upon entering the tomb" is found in none of the 4 gospels.
Matthew: "an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it." (1 angel outside sitting on the stone he just rolled away)
Mark: "a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side." (1 young man sitting inside on the right side)
NaturalMiracleMan 8 months ago
@boriwepaa
Luke: "suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them." (two men standing beside them)
John: "two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot." (two angels inside the tomb on Jesus' deathbed)
None of the four gospels say what you claim, and none of them agree with one another either. Once again, you are not honestly representing the Bible's claims.
NaturalMiracleMan 8 months ago
@NaturalMiracleMan I pray on the name of Jesus that I represent him in the right way and he will open your eyes on what is his truth Amen.. you should really study the bible and stop with the suppose contradictions of the bible.every single book was written by a different author and for different audience. At the time they did not had the complete bible together and still the message did not change and the doctrine is the same the coming of the messiah been the son of God,
boriwepaa 8 months ago
@boriwepaa I have attended a Bible college for two years, I have studied, discussed, and debated the Bible with multiple scholars of the Bible, and I have only quoted the Bible to you in order to show your dishonesty in how you represented its claims, so you have no business at all in instructing me to "really study the bible." I just showed you contradictions, and you haven't even dared to refute them, so you don't have a leg to stand on in telling me to "humble" myself.
NaturalMiracleMan 8 months ago
@NaturalMiracleMan first of all as i do not know you and you do not no me, as well as i was not always a Christian but God have open my eyes. I do not have time to be explaining you the versus of the bible like you were a little kid it is up to you to believe not, it is a chose you make . Does who do not believe are the one who do not have a leg to stand on, of you tell me it is kind of stupid to believe we came from Particle of space..
boriwepaa 8 months ago
@boriwepaa I haven't said anything about the origins of everything, so don't go putting words into my mouth. You are distracting from the fact that you were wrong about what the gospels say about the resurrection stories, and you are distracting from the fact that you have avoided acknowledging that I was honestly representing what the Bible says.
I haven't told you to stop believing in your religion, even though I think it's wrong. So, please, try being more polite and less preachy.
NaturalMiracleMan 8 months ago
@NaturalMiracleMan it is like i said not even the atheist have different believes, some believe we came from the monkeys and even aliens. and i have not told you to stop believing in what you believe i spoke the truth and the facts are there is more evidence for the new testament then any other book in history.. like i said it is up to you believe what you will. God does not sent has to hell he loves us all it is a chose you make. I believe so i will be with him forever.
boriwepaa 8 months ago